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2015-12-19T00:39:52Z AndroUser is now known as guicho
2015-12-19T00:40:19Z guicho: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-19T00:41:32Z Xach: happy quicklisp day
2015-12-19T00:42:36Z guicho: New version being shipped?
2015-12-19T00:47:00Z Xach: yes
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2015-12-19T00:47:05Z Xach: december 2015 is now out
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2015-12-19T00:58:22Z dwchandler: nice :)
2015-12-19T00:59:23Z mtl_: Xach: cheers
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2015-12-19T04:28:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-12-19T04:29:12Z mordocai: beach: Morning
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2015-12-19T04:36:22Z mordocai: Xach: thanks for the new quicklisp! :).
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2015-12-19T04:39:19Z zdm: Using slime, trying to use step, but its not stepping through the example like the book: http://i.imgur.com/C5GCHlK.png
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2015-12-19T04:39:47Z zdm: If someone could let me know why its not working that would be awesome, read the hyperspec doc on step
2015-12-19T04:39:52Z zdm: still not understanding it though
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2015-12-19T04:40:33Z mordocai: zdm: Btw, when I run what you did I get the same thing. In sly not slime but they are very close to the same.
2015-12-19T04:42:01Z mordocai: zdm: What implemenation are you using? sbcl?
2015-12-19T04:42:34Z zdm: mordocai: Yes, I believe so
2015-12-19T04:42:35Z zdm: Yeah, sbcl
2015-12-19T04:42:36Z zdm: Forgot for a second, new to lisp and programming
2015-12-19T04:43:00Z mordocai: Kk, checking on this.
2015-12-19T04:43:06Z drmeister: Hello everyone
2015-12-19T04:44:20Z mordocai: zdm: Perhaps this is the problem from the sbcl docs? "The form is evaluated with single stepping enabled. Function calls outside the lexical scope of the form can be stepped into only if the functions in question have been compiled with sufficient debug policy to be at least partially steppable."
2015-12-19T04:44:27Z mordocai: I'll see if it works with my own function
2015-12-19T04:46:07Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-12-19T04:46:27Z mordocai: zdm: Alright, see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8617064/a-simple-example-of-using-the-stepper-in-sbcl
2015-12-19T04:46:30Z mordocai: That works for me
2015-12-19T04:46:48Z mordocai: Someone more knowledgable would have to weigh in on how to make the book example work
2015-12-19T04:46:49Z drmeister: beach: How are things going - anything exciting going on?
2015-12-19T04:47:15Z mordocai: zdm: Note that slime implements a debugging interface so it'll definitely look different
2015-12-19T04:47:30Z beach: drmeister: Yes, but not much related to SICL/Cleavir at the moment.
2015-12-19T04:47:34Z mordocai: Same functionality though
2015-12-19T04:47:40Z beach: drmeister: I have stuff I need to get out the door.
2015-12-19T04:48:22Z drmeister: Me too.  Although I'm keeping a basal level of work going on Clasp.
2015-12-19T04:48:50Z beach: Yeah, same here.  I am doing preventive maintenance on SICL and Cleavir.
2015-12-19T04:49:05Z mordocai: zdm: From my limited knowledge, i'd say turning debug to 3 like the stackoverflow does and putting the stuff into a function then calling it rather than doing it inline like the book should work.
2015-12-19T04:51:06Z mordocai is suprised he hasn't been able to find the answer to this on google considering how often that book is mentioned.
2015-12-19T04:51:10Z beach: drmeister: Plus, I think what I am doing now could be a reasonable ELS paper, so I want to do it well before the submission deadline.
2015-12-19T04:51:56Z zdm: mordocai: So it is working but using it is challenging
2015-12-19T04:52:00Z zdm: Thanks
2015-12-19T04:52:06Z zdm: Now I just have to learn it haha
2015-12-19T04:52:06Z drmeister: Can you make ELS papers out of a new release?
2015-12-19T04:52:36Z beach: Probably not, unless it contains something really special.
2015-12-19T04:52:56Z mordocai: zdm: I'd say for normal programs this way of doing things works fine. It's just for book examples that it is harder to use.
2015-12-19T04:53:09Z beach: drmeister: ELS is an academic conference after all.
2015-12-19T04:53:18Z drmeister: Actually, I have something really special.
2015-12-19T04:53:49Z beach: What's that?
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2015-12-19T04:55:05Z drmeister: Cando - a programming language for Chemistry.   I also have this compiler Cleavir that I've integrated. :-)
2015-12-19T04:55:23Z beach: You could try with Cando.
2015-12-19T04:55:52Z beach: Has it been released yet?
2015-12-19T04:56:45Z beach: Otherwise, if I am the referee for the paper, I will reject it.  I reject any paper on software that isn't available for inspection. :)
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2015-12-19T04:58:43Z drmeister: beach: It should be soon.  The lawyers have it.
2015-12-19T04:59:12Z drmeister: It's been a couple of weeks.
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2015-12-19T05:00:40Z beach: drmeister: This time I probably can't save your *ss, so submit a full paper on time please.
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2015-12-19T05:18:40Z drmeister: There's a first time for everything.
2015-12-19T05:18:54Z beach: ?
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2015-12-19T05:25:15Z drmeister: That was my first time submitting to a computer science meeting.  Full paper vs demo vs lightning-talks - they were all new to me.  Although, yes, I do tend to run up to deadlines.
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2015-12-19T05:55:05Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2015-12-19T05:57:39Z drmeister: Sweet, I'm writing a C++ refactoring tool using the ASTMatcher code I wrote over a year ago.  I can fixup all of the code in a couple of automated passes.
2015-12-19T06:00:11Z drmeister: The pattern matchers get a little complicated.
2015-12-19T06:00:50Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/232498
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2015-12-19T06:02:22Z beach: Did you write ASTMatcher, or do you just interface to it using Clasp?
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2015-12-19T06:06:47Z drmeister: I interface to it using Clasp and wrote some lispy tools around it.
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2015-12-19T06:08:25Z drmeister: I can do things like insert (:?) into the ASTMatcher and in the *inferior-lisp* it will print suggestions for node types that are allowed at that point.
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2015-12-19T06:09:03Z myrkraverk: Nice.
2015-12-19T06:09:19Z drmeister: And being able to interactively write code that interrogates the matches is very helpful in developing matchers quickly.   The last time I wrote one of those was more than a year ago.  I'm about an hour into it and I wrote the one I posted.
2015-12-19T06:09:32Z drmeister: It matches to expressions like this:
2015-12-19T06:09:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fP9ejv2V/
2015-12-19T06:12:05Z drmeister: I want the .def("foo",&Cons_O::foo) method calls.   The code I posted tracks down the source position of the definitions of each of the Cons_O::foo methods.   Next I'll prefix the method definitions with NAME("foo") CL_METHOD  so that the scraper that I wrote in Common Lisp can generate an interface to each function.
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2015-12-19T06:13:03Z drmeister: This is to (1) allow M-. to jump to every exposed method (2) allow docstrings to be declared for methods in C++ (3) allow lambda lists to be declared for each method.
2015-12-19T06:13:17Z drmeister: Everything must be discoverable and documented.
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2015-12-19T08:19:30Z beknowly|desk: Evening folks '
2015-12-19T08:20:56Z beknowly|desk: Could anyone tell me if
2015-12-19T08:21:06Z beknowly|desk: Common LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
2015-12-19T08:21:18Z beknowly|desk: is still a good into to lisp?
2015-12-19T08:21:26Z beknowly|desk: intro*
2015-12-19T08:21:38Z beknowly|desk: Seeing as how it is about 25 years old
2015-12-19T08:25:54Z DeadTrickster_: it definitely won't teach you web programming
2015-12-19T08:26:11Z DeadTrickster_: as pure CL reference it can be good
2015-12-19T08:26:30Z beknowly|desk: Not looking to learn web programming; I'm in systems eng.
2015-12-19T08:26:37Z beknowly|desk: Purely for hobby purposes / CS theory
2015-12-19T08:26:40Z beknowly|desk: :)
2015-12-19T08:26:47Z DeadTrickster_: then go for it
2015-12-19T08:27:01Z beknowly|desk: Just wondering if any major language features have changed/evolved since then
2015-12-19T08:27:21Z DeadTrickster_: not much, I believe
2015-12-19T08:27:32Z beknowly|desk: cool
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2015-12-19T10:44:35Z zdm: Anyone know why im getting a warning?: https://pastee.org/mg7p2
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2015-12-19T10:46:01Z H4ns: you never defined the variable "vowels"
2015-12-19T10:46:21Z zdm: So ill always get that when I define variables?
2015-12-19T10:46:42Z H4ns: setf is not used to define variables, it is used to set them.
2015-12-19T10:47:11Z H4ns: what text are you following to learn common lisp?
2015-12-19T10:47:49Z zdm: Common Lisp - A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computation - David S. Touretzky.pdf
2015-12-19T10:47:54Z zdm: That
2015-12-19T10:48:06Z H4ns: seems not to be very good at explaining the basics then.
2015-12-19T10:48:25Z zdm: its aimed at people new to programming
2015-12-19T10:48:37Z zdm: it says setq is uses to give values to variables
2015-12-19T10:49:04Z H4ns: as long as it does not claim that setq is used to define variables, it is correct
2015-12-19T10:49:26Z zdm: 'the setf macro function assigns a value to a variable'
2015-12-19T10:49:48Z zdm: Ill read on and keep what you said in mind
2015-12-19T10:49:50Z zdm: thanks H4ns
2015-12-19T10:49:59Z H4ns: i cannot read "define" anywhere in that sentence.  definition of a variable and setting it are two different things.
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2015-12-19T11:13:54Z beknowly|desk: ^ "If the variable already has a value, the new value replaces the old one."
2015-12-19T11:14:31Z ASau` is now known as ASau
2015-12-19T11:14:42Z beknowly|desk: That implies definition. Doesn't state it but can give the impression i suppose
2015-12-19T11:15:21Z H4ns: a variable can be defined unbound, and that would be "not having a value".
2015-12-19T11:15:57Z beknowly|desk: I see. I'm just picking this up so my exp is only from other langs,
2015-12-19T11:16:03Z beknowly|desk: but in my short test
2015-12-19T11:16:26Z beknowly|desk: >(setf test '(test1 test2 test3))
2015-12-19T11:16:32Z beknowly|desk: (TEST1 TEST2 TEST3)
2015-12-19T11:16:35Z beknowly|desk: and
2015-12-19T11:16:38Z beknowly|desk: >test
2015-12-19T11:16:41Z beknowly|desk: (TEST1 TEST2 TEST3)
2015-12-19T11:16:51Z beknowly|desk: Am i missing something?
2015-12-19T11:17:04Z H4ns: right.  most implementations define undefined variables when they're setq/setf'd on the repl.
2015-12-19T11:17:16Z H4ns: some implementations do it silently, some warn that they did it.
2015-12-19T11:17:25Z beknowly|desk: Ahhh. Makes sense
2015-12-19T11:17:49Z H4ns: it is meant as a convenience for people from older lisps which did not require the definition of variables.  nowadays, it is just confusing.
2015-12-19T11:18:30Z beknowly|desk: Okay. After testing with sbcl I get the warning
2015-12-19T11:18:46Z beknowly|desk: Thanks
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2015-12-19T11:34:08Z pillton: minion: memo for guicho: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store
2015-12-19T11:34:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell guicho when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-12-19T11:35:02Z pillton: minion: memo for guicho: See tests/standard-store-syntax-layer.lisp for some quick examples.
2015-12-19T11:35:03Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell guicho when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-12-19T16:35:16Z attila_lendvai: luis: is there any specific reason cffi-libffi doesn't push anything into *features*? it'd come handy to generate defcfuns with a #+prefix that need struct pass by value...
2015-12-19T16:35:31Z LiamH: :fsbv
2015-12-19T16:35:57Z attila_lendvai: oh, that's a nicely picked name! (/s)
2015-12-19T16:36:09Z attila_lendvai: thanks, though!
2015-12-19T16:36:16Z LiamH: There's a difference between "FSBV" and "libffi"
2015-12-19T16:36:45Z LiamH: libffi can do things other than fsbv, though there's no port for them (yet)
2015-12-19T16:37:07Z LiamH: FSBV is sometime implemented in the compiler itself - I think Allegro does this.
2015-12-19T16:37:18Z attila_lendvai: that's true, but still... fsbv is not too helpful for humans
2015-12-19T16:37:46Z LiamH: It was the name I originally gave the interface, because that's what I was trying to accomplish.
2015-12-19T16:37:50Z attila_lendvai: cffi even has a CFFI-FEATURES package that is used to push things in *features*...
2015-12-19T16:37:59Z LiamH: Ah, didn't know that.
2015-12-19T16:39:34Z LiamH: So the tests actually test FSBV, not libffi - if someone used a compiler that directly supported FSBV without using libffi, and there was a port for it in CFFI, then those tests would be executed.
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2015-12-19T16:40:27Z LiamH: So #+libffi would not be a good conditional in that case.
2015-12-19T16:41:21Z attila_lendvai: no, I'm not arguing for #+libffi, but something like CFFI-FEATURES::STRUCT-BY-VALUE or adding whatever else F stands for
2015-12-19T16:41:30Z LiamH: "foreign"
2015-12-19T16:41:59Z attila_lendvai: then I'd roll with CFFI-FEATURES::STRUCT-BY-VALUE
2015-12-19T16:42:20Z LiamH: I suppose
2015-12-19T16:42:35Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: are you ok with adding this? and marking :fsvb as obsolete?
2015-12-19T16:43:56Z LiamH: I'm pretty neutral on it. Would require update to GSLL, which would have to be timed with whenever Xach got the update to CFFI, which depends on when Luis does a release.
2015-12-19T16:44:05Z attila_lendvai: btw, I haven't found any references to :fsvb in any of the backends. I guess support for that has not been added to allegro, or whichever else supports it.
2015-12-19T16:44:34Z attila_lendvai: I wouldn't recommend removing :fsbv, just marking it scheduled for removal in a comment
2015-12-19T16:44:46Z LiamH: No, no one has done that to my knowledge, we are just leaving open the possibility. Same with using additional features of libffi.
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2015-12-19T16:45:36Z LiamH: I'm not sure what compilers have direct support for FSBV, I think Allegro does (on some platforms), but I don't know if any others do.
2015-12-19T16:46:11Z attila_lendvai: I'll record a commit and we'll see. I'm working on a generator based on c2ffi and this is just a side-story. and actually, I think I should put them in a separate file, but that'll wait for v2.0
2015-12-19T16:46:38Z LiamH: As far as changing to struct-by-value, I'd like to hear what Luis thinks.
2015-12-19T16:47:49Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: go ahead and do a pull request for what you want, including using cffi-features.
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2015-12-19T16:49:08Z attila_lendvai: sure, I'll not push anything without asking him... just record it and suggest
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2015-12-19T16:57:56Z LiamH: So I've been reading the emails about c2ffi, and I'm still a little unclear on what it is.
2015-12-19T16:58:38Z LiamH: It avoids the need for a grovel file, and to load you don't need the header files and C compiler?
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2015-12-19T17:11:06Z puchacz: hi, does anybody use hunchentoot on lispworks please?
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2015-12-19T17:11:46Z Cthulhux: i wish i had the money for lispworks :<
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2015-12-19T17:14:13Z puchacz: well, it is written with a lot of special cases for #+lispworks
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2015-12-19T17:16:13Z Bike: i wouldn't be surprised if it worked better on lispworks than elsewhere.
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2015-12-19T17:18:30Z puchacz: might be. but I don't understand the startup sequence. for example it uses comm:start-up-server with :wait t and :announce function; using both is not canonical way of calling this function apparently.
2015-12-19T17:19:26Z puchacz: given that on sbcl it uses usocket, and usocket is supported on both sbcl and lispworks, I wonder if keeping special cases for lispworks has any reason beyond historic....
2015-12-19T17:20:01Z puchacz: I did not try to unify it using usocket, because it may appear to work when I try to use it sequentially but fail under heavier load
2015-12-19T17:25:17Z Bike: i don't see anything in the docs about not using them together.
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2015-12-19T17:28:27Z puchacz: these 2 keywords? lispworks support told me not to
2015-12-19T17:28:49Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: yes. c2ffi emits a json file that has everything interesting from the C preprocessed compiler unit. what I'm working on is the code that generates the cffi definitions from them
2015-12-19T17:30:08Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: so the code author needs the grovel file, but that's not distributed. And somehow c2ffi knows all the possible architectures/conditionals to generate the right values?
2015-12-19T17:30:43Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: no, the idea is to distribute the json output of c2ffi for each platform.
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2015-12-19T17:31:30Z attila_lendvai: c2ffi can generate a json file for foreign architectures, too (don't ask me how, it's llvm/clang stuff)
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2015-12-19T17:31:54Z Bike: puchacz: well, i dunno then. i guess send an email or ask H4ns when he's around.
2015-12-19T17:32:02Z LiamH: attila_lendvai: Right, so that json file exists in many variations, but it is generated by any one platform/architecture.
2015-12-19T17:32:50Z puchacz: Bike, yes, will do
2015-12-19T17:33:25Z attila_lendvai: LiamH: yep. didn't test how well it works across platforms, but on linux its output seems to be spot on.
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2015-12-19T17:51:23Z attila_lendvai: so, sbcl barks when trying to *print-readably* a simple-base-string... any ideas how to avoid that? if nothing, then how can I reliably turn a simple-base-string into a string across different lisps?
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2015-12-19T17:53:18Z attila_lendvai: I guess (format nil "~A" ...) should work
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2015-12-19T18:06:17Z Bike: like, turn a simple-base-string into an (array character)?
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2015-12-19T18:22:41Z mr-pizza: folks
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2015-12-19T18:25:18Z puchacz: guys, can I muffle this in slime repl...?
2015-12-19T18:25:20Z puchacz: Warning: Local Variable Initialization clause (the binding of SWANK::TPOS) follows iteration forms but will be evaluated before them.
2015-12-19T18:25:33Z puchacz: I grepped for substrings but it seems to be generated
2015-12-19T18:28:08Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2015-12-19T18:28:08Z puchacz: anyway, don't worry
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2015-12-19T18:42:14Z mr-pizza: people spend  time on making music software
2015-12-19T18:42:19Z mr-pizza: but music is not good
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2015-12-19T19:43:59Z phoe_krk: mr-pizza: wtf
2015-12-19T19:44:45Z ggole: Plato would be proud.
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2015-12-19T20:19:38Z oleo_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/237912#1
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2015-12-19T20:37:36Z phoe_krk: oleo_: dafuq is this
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2015-12-19T20:38:50Z oleo_: whatever......
2015-12-19T20:39:57Z oleo_: ☺ xmas to you too phoe_krk
2015-12-19T20:40:10Z phoe_krk: merry xmas oleo_
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2015-12-19T21:05:57Z oleo_: what happened to paste.lisp.org ?
2015-12-19T21:06:06Z oleo_: it doesn't display anything.....
2015-12-19T21:06:10Z oleo_: from the past!
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2015-12-19T21:20:23Z attila_lendvai: luis: ping
2015-12-19T21:20:37Z luis: hey attila
2015-12-19T21:20:44Z attila_lendvai: hi luis!
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2015-12-19T21:21:33Z attila_lendvai: luis: so, in C it's valid to have a struct and a typedef of the same name. is cffi-features:flat-namespace about that?
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2015-12-19T21:22:30Z attila_lendvai: luis: I'm thinking of throwing away my tracking of defined types, and just eval the cffi forms as I'm parsing the json file, and then use cffi's type repository... but my first issue is that this is apparently illegal: (cffi::find-type-parser '(:struct flock))
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2015-12-19T21:23:06Z attila_lendvai: while (cffi::find-type-parser 'flock) works, but it's kinda wrong
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2015-12-19T21:24:18Z attila_lendvai: my current type tracking properly deals with this, but I don't have a canonicalize-type needed for detecting struct-by-value defcfun's... and instead of adding it I should rather use cffi's already written code I guess
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2015-12-19T21:24:47Z attila_lendvai: but this situation with '(:struct flock) is somewhat concerning
2015-12-19T21:24:58Z attila_lendvai: unless I'm missing something, that is
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2015-12-19T21:27:36Z attila_lendvai wonders whether luis is still around or whether I'm wandering into foggy territory
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2015-12-19T21:30:24Z attila_lendvai has found (cffi::find-type-parser 'flock :struct)
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2015-12-19T22:12:44Z attila_lendvai: luis: are you aware of the fact that there are 3 :char types in the C standard? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/436513/char-signed-char-char-unsigned-char
2015-12-19T22:14:32Z nyef: IIRC, char is always type= to either signed-char or unsigned-char, but it's implementation-dependent which?
2015-12-19T22:15:19Z attila_lendvai: nyef: yes. I've also heard that < comparison on some unices always returned true for :char, or something nasty like that
2015-12-19T22:15:40Z nyef: Eek!
2015-12-19T22:16:04Z attila_lendvai: I wonder how that affects cffi... my first impression is that we can safely ignore this at that highlevel
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2015-12-19T22:17:19Z nyef: You can possibly ignore it at a high level, but that's because some pains are gone to to get it more-or-less right at the low level.
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2015-12-19T22:44:45Z Posterdati: dlowe: I found why ecl always recompiles iolib on quickload: I leave ~ files in its source tree
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2015-12-19T23:29:37Z attila_lendvai: argh, why does cffi:defcenum enforce keywords for enum member names?!
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2015-12-19T23:41:21Z phoe_krk: Does quicklisp have any way of grabbing common lisp music?
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2015-12-19T23:44:27Z phoe_krk: *common music
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