2015-12-18T00:00:03Z mtl_: guess you gotta find the author 2015-12-18T00:00:12Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T00:01:22Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T00:01:31Z abbe joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:01:32Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T00:01:46Z jasom: I found a Brian Mastenbroook ontwitter who works in the tech industry and lives a couple of hours away from IU, so as a shot in the dark sent him a tweet 2015-12-18T00:01:55Z taij33n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T00:01:56Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T00:01:56Z ircbrows- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T00:02:04Z bin8me joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:02:11Z joshe joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:02:11Z taij33n joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:02:29Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:04:30Z bin7me quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T00:05:35Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:09:43Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-12-18T00:11:06Z jasom: minion: tell nyef about chavatar 2015-12-18T00:11:07Z minion: chavatar: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``chandler''. 2015-12-18T00:11:26Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T00:11:33Z nyef: jasom: "deleted page", for starters. 2015-12-18T00:11:59Z jasom: nyef: there is still an alias entry in minion for chavatar, but the target no longer exists :) 2015-12-18T00:12:06Z nyef: Ah. 2015-12-18T00:13:08Z dwchandler: minion: I'm not in your database, and that's fine for now. 2015-12-18T00:13:08Z minion: now: no, it's not 2015-12-18T00:13:24Z dwchandler: That's what I said. 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I am sure this would somewhat restrict the flexibility of CLOS but I do not care, since the objective is primarily the speed comparable to the dispatch in C++. however I do not want to reinvent the wheel, are there any existing work on this? 2015-12-18T03:38:46Z Bike: yes, pillton is doing something like that. 2015-12-18T03:40:08Z guicho: I couldnt find pillton on github. is it like a 90's stuff or a private gitlab? 2015-12-18T03:40:31Z Bike: pillton is in this very channel. i don't know where the code is 2015-12-18T03:40:42Z Brucio-85 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T03:40:57Z Brucio-85 is now known as gabriel_laddel 2015-12-18T03:42:12Z Bike: before getting to work on some full on clos extension, i'd just write some compiler macros, though. 2015-12-18T03:42:12Z guicho: thanks Bike. your work on types are also interesting (and somewhat related) 2015-12-18T03:42:36Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T03:42:36Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-12-18T03:43:11Z Bike: before that, introspect-environment will let you get the declared types, so that will help with compiler macros 2015-12-18T03:43:36Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T03:43:54Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-18T03:47:48Z guicho: I wrote something with similar functionality once, but every time I do something like this it eventually converges to CLOS. so I stopped writing an incompatible DSL and rather extend CLOS. 2015-12-18T03:52:07Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-12-18T03:53:10Z Bike: i'm not sure what it has to do with CLOS, honestly. CLOS is, like, inherently dynamic. it doesn't even make sense to use classes instead of types 2015-12-18T03:54:34Z Zhivago: The reason that CLOS uses classes instead of types is that classes form a coherent lattice, whereas types don't. 2015-12-18T03:55:05Z Zhivago: So if you want to use CLOS to do typely things, you may be restricting yourself to a small subset of types. 2015-12-18T03:59:23Z mbuf joined #lisp 2015-12-18T03:59:24Z guicho: my particular need is to write a fast combinatorial solver. during the development I want the full dynamic feature of CLOS but during experiments it should be statically inlined into the code which has least overhead as possible. 2015-12-18T04:00:10Z Zhivago: That sounds ... unfortunate -- I'm not sure if there are any popular implementations which support inlining of clos methods and dispatch like that. 2015-12-18T04:03:56Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T04:04:46Z pillton: guicho: I am working on that now. 2015-12-18T04:04:54Z guicho: I don't have much experience in writing MOP extensions yet, but I do believe there should be some hooks that allows me to store the function-lambda-expression equivalent of methods and defines a compiler macro each time. 2015-12-18T04:05:14Z guicho: each time a new method is added. 2015-12-18T04:06:05Z pillton: guicho: It is almost finished. 2015-12-18T04:07:01Z guicho: pillton: its good to hear that. in the compilation part I prefer it being compiled into a simple tree of pattern matchers like optima or trivia. optimization itself should be delegated to the pattern matcher (which works in compile time). 2015-12-18T04:07:40Z guicho: pillton: is it public? 2015-12-18T04:08:07Z pillton: guicho: It will be. 2015-12-18T04:09:09Z pillton: guicho: The library will call the "method" directly if the type is known at compile time. 2015-12-18T04:09:32Z pillton: guicho: Dispatch is done using a tree which is learnt every time a method is added. 2015-12-18T04:10:38Z guicho: hmm. 2015-12-18T04:11:55Z stoopkid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T04:13:54Z pillton: ? 2015-12-18T04:14:02Z stoopkid joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:14:09Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T04:15:31Z guicho: is it calling or inlining the method... 2015-12-18T04:15:38Z zdm quit (Excess Flood) 2015-12-18T04:16:42Z guicho: nevermind, it would be good starting point anyways. 2015-12-18T04:17:13Z pillton: There are three options. You can invoke it via dispatch, you can inline it, or you can name a function for that specific method and that function will be invoked. 2015-12-18T04:17:40Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T04:18:23Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:19:19Z pillton: guicho: I'll publish it here. https://github.com/markcox80 2015-12-18T04:19:43Z pillton: Hopefully it will be there within a week or so. 2015-12-18T04:21:26Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:24:42Z beach joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:24:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-12-18T04:25:17Z guicho: pillton-or-marcox80: there is no need to wait for it to be complete, I'm deadly interested in it. 2015-12-18T04:25:24Z danieli joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:25:50Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T04:26:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T04:26:08Z lisse quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-12-18T04:26:47Z pillton: Ok. I will release what I have over the weekend. 2015-12-18T04:27:03Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-12-18T04:27:44Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-12-18T04:28:33Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-12-18T04:30:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:33:29Z guicho: btw, is there any way to legally obtain the pdf of AMOP? 2015-12-18T04:33:53Z beach: Only chapters 5 and 6 2015-12-18T04:34:30Z guicho: yes, 5 and 6 suffice, but to my knowledge only html version. 2015-12-18T04:34:46Z beach: guicho: The TeX source is available. 2015-12-18T04:35:30Z loke: I have a scanned pdf 2015-12-18T04:35:36Z beach: Not sure what you need, but this site is better than the previous HTML version, and it's free: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2015-12-18T04:35:41Z loke: quality is not good though. Where can I find the TeX source? 2015-12-18T04:36:19Z beach: As I recall, it was not easy to find. But I have a copy, so I can post it for you. 2015-12-18T04:36:37Z loke: beach: Thanks! 2015-12-18T04:37:10Z guicho: beach: great thanks!! 2015-12-18T04:38:23Z beach: It's early in the morning. I need to figure out where I put it. 2015-12-18T04:38:36Z gabriel_laddel: If I'm compiling a file and want to know the current position in the file, how would I access this? 2015-12-18T04:39:02Z gabriel_laddel: essentially, *compile-file-truename* for (point) is what I'm looking for. 2015-12-18T04:39:14Z wallyduchamp joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:39:31Z guicho: in sbcl there is sb-c:source-location 2015-12-18T04:39:45Z Bike: doesn't exist standardly. would be hard to define with any clarity, since it's probably going to evaluate things a lot in different ways... 2015-12-18T04:40:32Z guicho: beach: if you use dropbox then put it in the Public directory 2015-12-18T04:41:18Z beach: http://metamodular.com/spec.tar 2015-12-18T04:41:52Z guicho: well forget it, thank you 2015-12-18T04:42:54Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:42:54Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T04:42:54Z tessier joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:44:11Z beach: I did the new HTML for two reasons: 1. I needed better links, and 2. The previous HTML version blatantly ignored the plea form the authors to make any modification public. So the old HTML is protected by copyright and they give no rights to modify it. 2015-12-18T04:45:16Z beach: guicho: If you want to use it as a reference for doing work, my HTML version is better than the book too. 2015-12-18T04:45:39Z beach: I got very frustrated when trying to work with the book as a reference. 2015-12-18T04:46:31Z guicho: I wanted to read it on my tablet, in which case pdf would be better. 2015-12-18T04:46:44Z guicho: it might not be, though. 2015-12-18T04:47:25Z RussT1 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T04:47:59Z beach: Chapters 5 and 6 don't read very well. 2015-12-18T04:48:16Z beach: They even messed up the alphabetical order of things. 2015-12-18T04:48:43Z beach: And the references are to named sections rather than numbered sections, which is bad because there are several sections with the same name. 2015-12-18T04:48:53Z beach: All of that has been taken care of in my HTML version. 2015-12-18T04:49:01Z beach: The links are clearly explained. 2015-12-18T04:50:48Z beach: Anyway, just saying. You can do what you want with this information, of course. 2015-12-18T04:52:46Z Sucks_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T04:56:46Z vydd quit 2015-12-18T04:58:42Z OrangeShark_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-18T05:06:46Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:07:18Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T05:07:18Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:13:33Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:19:57Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T05:22:12Z moore33: beach: Hey there! 2015-12-18T05:22:26Z beach: Hello moore33. This is early for you. 2015-12-18T05:22:44Z moore33: Heh, this is the new regime. 2015-12-18T05:23:06Z beach: Wow! How come? 2015-12-18T05:24:31Z moore33: I do actually get up this early every day, but I'm only on irc when I've left myself logged in. Mostly it's to have a few minutes before Isaac gets up. 2015-12-18T05:24:46Z rme: I admire you early risers. 2015-12-18T05:25:32Z beach: rme: In my case, it's a genetic defect. 2015-12-18T05:26:51Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach :) 2015-12-18T05:27:20Z moore33: beach: How've you been? I take it you're pretty involved with CLASP? 2015-12-18T05:27:40Z beach: moore33: Not directly. Clasp is a client of Cleavir, though. 2015-12-18T05:28:06Z moore33: right. 2015-12-18T05:28:15Z beach: moore33: The past week or so, I decided I needed to get some other code out there. 2015-12-18T05:29:36Z beach: So I have been working on this: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf 2015-12-18T05:30:06Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T05:30:07Z beach: It used to be part of Second Climacs, but Second Climacs is stuck because CLIM3/CLIMatis is stuck because I don't have presentation types. 2015-12-18T05:30:15Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T05:30:18Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T05:30:25Z beach: So I thought I had better turn the buffer code into a library. 2015-12-18T05:32:33Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:32:37Z moore33: When I looked at CLIMatis a couple of years ago, I thought that it wouldn't be too hard to drop in the presentation types from McCLIM. 2015-12-18T05:32:48Z beach: This way is better anyway, because it gave me the opportunity to clean up the code, improve the architecture, and document it properly. 2015-12-18T05:32:58Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:33:02Z beach: moore33: That is probably true. 2015-12-18T05:33:20Z Sucks joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:33:43Z moore33: beach: Oh, and I'm finally making progress on my OpenGL rendering engine in Lisp after 3 years :) 2015-12-18T05:33:50Z beach: Excellent! 2015-12-18T05:34:01Z beach: Will it be freely available? 2015-12-18T05:34:09Z arescorpio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T05:34:13Z moore33: It displays a purple cube now. 2015-12-18T05:34:18Z moore33: beach: Of course! 2015-12-18T05:34:23Z beach: Great! 2015-12-18T05:34:40Z beach: Purple cube is a bit limited, but it's a good start. :) 2015-12-18T05:34:48Z moore33: Yes, well. 2015-12-18T05:35:31Z moore33: I'm planning on a 0.0.0 release before New Year's, that is to say what I wish the initial commit had been. 2015-12-18T05:35:49Z beach: Looking forward to it. 2015-12-18T05:36:35Z moore33: beach: We're going to Nyons comme d'hab for the vacation, which I hope doesn't interfere with my hacking :) 2015-12-18T05:36:49Z beach: When do you leave? 2015-12-18T05:36:50Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:37:01Z moore33: beach: Saturday. 2015-12-18T05:37:23Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-12-18T05:37:57Z beach: moore33: I have been thinking of a common low-level rendering layer to use in McCLIM, CLIM3/CLIMatis, and other GUI libraries. Maybe yours could be it? 2015-12-18T05:39:30Z loke: Is it a known problem that Iolib doesn't load on ECL? 2015-12-18T05:40:03Z moore33: beach: I was thinking that too. The part I need to write for that to be a reality in CLIM3 is texture handling, for the fonts / text. 2015-12-18T05:40:19Z fe[nl]ix: loke: I don't test it on ECL 2015-12-18T05:40:38Z beach: moore33: That would be absolutely fantastic. 2015-12-18T05:41:42Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/226102 2015-12-18T05:42:27Z moore33: beach: As you know, I've wanted a OpenGL based CLIM that works for almost 15 years. You too, I imagine :) 2015-12-18T05:42:46Z beach: Yes. And you are the one to do it. 2015-12-18T05:42:56Z loke: I added another annotation to the error. 2015-12-18T05:43:05Z loke: It seems to include the SBCL files for ECL? 2015-12-18T05:46:36Z moore33: beach: Looking at the form of your Cluffer doc instead of the contents, are you still convinced that LaTeX is the way to go for specs and documentation? I've been toying with the idea of following the hordes and using Markdown or something for the LPSG (my project) documentation, if only to make it more accessible on GitHub. 2015-12-18T05:49:23Z Warlock[29A] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T05:49:48Z Warlock[29A] joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:50:15Z beach: moore33: No, I am not convinced... 2015-12-18T05:50:44Z beach: moore33: What I want is a set of CLOS class definitions for documents rather than an external syntax. 2015-12-18T05:51:19Z beach: eudoxia has done some work with that. 2015-12-18T05:52:08Z beach: moore33: The proof that we need to move away from external syntax is that it is usually the first thing people protest against, just like you just did. And that seems to be independent of the kind of syntax that was chosen. 2015-12-18T05:53:00Z beach: I am betting Markdown has some problems as well. I am willing to bet that its features for literature references would be incomplete, for instance. 2015-12-18T05:53:13Z rme: I think I mentioned http://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc/ (also at https://github.com/Clozure/ccldoc) before. It's a bit like that: there's a CLOS-based document model, which backends then render into various formats. Kind of raw, but we use it to make http://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html. 2015-12-18T05:53:25Z beach: Yes, I remember. 2015-12-18T05:53:31Z beach: I just haven't had time to look into it. :( 2015-12-18T05:53:57Z moore33: beach: I actually like the classic form of your doc, and the syntax you (probably) used to write it, but these days it seems like there's too much friction in it for discoverability... I dunno. 2015-12-18T05:54:37Z beach: moore33: Again, surface syntax seems to be what everybody has problems with, no matter which one is chosen. 2015-12-18T05:55:44Z beach: I need to concentrate on getting the contents out there, rather than on the surface syntax. At least for now. 2015-12-18T05:56:12Z trinitr0n quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-12-18T05:56:44Z moore33: rme: I was interested too when Gail announced it on the mailing list.I need to look more closely at it. 2015-12-18T05:57:19Z beach: moore33: Exceptionally, I need to go. I need to take my (admittedly small) family to an early appointment this morning. 2015-12-18T05:57:45Z beach: I hope we can talk more often. 2015-12-18T05:57:46Z moore33: beach: I need to drive Isaac to the Observatoire de Bordeaux, where he is doing his stage de 3ieme 2015-12-18T05:57:52Z moore33: beach: yeah! 2015-12-18T05:57:53Z rme: I've been looking into moving (or at least mirroring) Clozure stuff on GitHub. If you want to take a look, feel free to get in touch about it. 2015-12-18T05:58:27Z trinitr0n joined #lisp 2015-12-18T05:58:34Z beach: rme: My memory is pretty bad. Please remind me of that regularly. :) I will definitely have a look. 2015-12-18T05:58:34Z moore33: rme: I saw your mail about that. 2015-12-18T05:59:06Z beach: moore33: The "stage" sounds great! 2015-12-18T05:59:12Z beach: Anyway, talk later. 2015-12-18T05:59:14Z beach left #lisp 2015-12-18T05:59:28Z moore33: beach: Yeah, last year before they abandon the campus and move to Talence, sigh. 2015-12-18T06:00:56Z moore33: rme: I think git rocks, but I don't think the choice of VCS is putting a drag on contributions to CCL :) 2015-12-18T06:02:06Z moore33: gotta split too. 2015-12-18T06:02:11Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-18T06:03:22Z loke: rme: are you the clozure maintainer? 2015-12-18T06:04:09Z rme: Not the sole maintainer, but yes, I've been working on ccl for 7+ years now. 2015-12-18T06:04:10Z Sucks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T06:04:51Z loke: rme: Yay! I was working on porting Potato to CCL, and it almost works, with the exception of a single limitation that seems to crazy to me. 2015-12-18T06:05:44Z loke: rme: the application requires an implementation of condition-broadcast, and when looking at bordeaux-threads implementation of condvars, it seems like the CCL implementation is different from all others. It seems to be based on semaphores. 2015-12-18T06:05:45Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds) 2015-12-18T06:06:06Z loke: And I have found no way of implementing a condition-broadcast. 2015-12-18T06:06:11Z loke: Am I correct? 2015-12-18T06:06:42Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T06:06:58Z rme: ccl has locks and semaphores as primitives. It doesn't provide condition variables. 2015-12-18T06:07:54Z loke: rme: That explains why BT emulates them as semaphores. How do you suggest I implement it? I could create an entire condition-broadcast emulation using a queue and stuff, but that seems incredibly inefficient. 2015-12-18T06:08:22Z ramky joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:09:13Z danlentz joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:11:31Z rme: loke: I'm not sure what the best way would be right off hand. 2015-12-18T06:14:54Z clop joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:16:06Z trinitr0n quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-12-18T06:18:04Z trinitr0n joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:19:16Z trinitr01 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:20:04Z trinitr0n quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T06:20:48Z wallyduchamp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T06:21:44Z wallyduchamp joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:21:51Z trinitr01 is now known as trinitr0n 2015-12-18T06:22:10Z wallyduchamp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T06:23:02Z wallyduchamp joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:25:00Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-12-18T06:28:03Z loke: rme: Hmm, I'll have to emulate it then. It'll be pretty slow. 2015-12-18T06:28:25Z loke: My hope is to push my condition-broadcast to BT, and it would be neat if it wasn't horribly slow on CCL 2015-12-18T06:28:37Z loke: Would it make sense to implement real condvars in CCL? 2015-12-18T06:29:50Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T06:29:52Z rme: Maybe so. I'd have to look up how to implement them in a book. 2015-12-18T06:30:22Z loke: rme: how are locks implemented? Does it call into the pthreads libs? 2015-12-18T06:31:12Z mea-culpa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T06:31:49Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:34:51Z rme: We've used futexes on linux. On other systems we use spin locks and an OS semaphore when that takes too long. 2015-12-18T06:36:02Z rme: (ccl's locks are recursive locks.) 2015-12-18T06:44:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:44:16Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:48:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T06:50:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-12-18T06:55:10Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T07:02:57Z mastokley joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:05:54Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Code Change) 2015-12-18T07:07:17Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:08:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:12:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:13:12Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T07:14:23Z mac_ified quit 2015-12-18T07:17:10Z stoopkid left #lisp 2015-12-18T07:21:22Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:25:06Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T07:29:24Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-12-18T07:29:38Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-12-18T07:30:59Z Xof joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:34:06Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:36:38Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T07:38:09Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:38:12Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:44:44Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:45:30Z flambard joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:49:06Z Guest20174 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T07:53:55Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-18T07:54:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:54:49Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:55:22Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:55:25Z Guest20174 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:58:38Z sweater joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:59:02Z sweater is now known as Guest94409 2015-12-18T07:59:07Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-12-18T07:59:37Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-12-18T08:00:47Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T08:02:22Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:05:20Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T08:09:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T08:10:05Z ggole__ is now known as ggole 2015-12-18T08:11:51Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:11:55Z jackdaniel: haa, I've a bug :) 2015-12-18T08:14:13Z reggy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T08:17:05Z loke: rme: Yes, but the problem here is when I have more than one client waiting on a condition variable and I need all of them to be released once the condition hits. 2015-12-18T08:23:15Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T08:24:47Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:24:55Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T08:24:58Z namra: greetings. i'm pretty new to lisp and can't figure out why the following doesn't read anything into the given sequence: http://pastebin.com/LY3JvKrV 2015-12-18T08:26:41Z brucem: loke, rme: It needs a write up, but the Webkit code has some nice lock management code in it with a parking lot and pretty small per-lock storage. There is some info about it here: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.opendarwin.webkit.devel/27578 ... It is on my list to see if there's something there that we might use in Open Dylan. 2015-12-18T08:28:55Z loke: namra: Because you set the fill-pointer to 0 2015-12-18T08:29:07Z loke: namra: From the point of view of read-sequence, the array is zero length 2015-12-18T08:29:13Z loke: so it never writes anything into it 2015-12-18T08:29:41Z namra: loke: thanks just removed it and tried it and then you wrote this ^^ 2015-12-18T08:30:00Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-12-18T08:30:29Z namra: loke: so when using a fill-pointer it only makes sense with vector-push and -pop? 2015-12-18T08:30:46Z namra: because they modify the pointer 2015-12-18T08:32:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:36:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:37:30Z Bike: (length (make-array 5 :fill-pointer 0)) => 0. pretty much everything will treat it as such, with exceptions like that, yeah. 2015-12-18T08:38:33Z namra: thanks a lot guys! 2015-12-18T08:38:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:48:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-12-18T08:52:14Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T08:58:17Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:00:00Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:03:56Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:05:15Z flip214: how about renaming that IRC channel to "#|Common-Lisp|#"? ;) 2015-12-18T09:05:59Z jackdaniel: embrace yourself, shitstorm is comming 2015-12-18T09:06:01Z jackdaniel: ;D 2015-12-18T09:07:43Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-12-18T09:10:34Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:11:58Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-12-18T09:13:55Z przl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:14:15Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T09:15:20Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T09:17:29Z easye: flip214: Ha! 2015-12-18T09:18:52Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:19:37Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:20:09Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:22:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T09:25:15Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T09:26:24Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:26:25Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T09:26:25Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:26:35Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T09:26:42Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-12-18T09:28:15Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:35:03Z moore33 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:37:21Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:37:29Z lokulin joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:38:09Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:38:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:39:44Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T09:40:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:41:36Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-12-18T09:44:02Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:46:38Z ramus joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:47:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:48:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T09:48:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-18T09:51:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T09:52:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:02:47Z loke: flip214: #lisp is a shorter, and easier name. 2015-12-18T10:02:50Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2015-12-18T10:02:52Z loke: Means the same thing. :-) 2015-12-18T10:03:08Z przl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:03:55Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:04:07Z jackdaniel: hmm, nope 2015-12-18T10:04:09Z jackdaniel: ;) 2015-12-18T10:04:40Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T10:09:14Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T10:10:14Z namra quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-12-18T10:12:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T10:13:01Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T10:14:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:14:52Z resttime quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-18T10:15:06Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T10:17:02Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:18:04Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:18:51Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: I hold to the opinion it *means* 2015-12-18T10:19:06Z phoe_krk: for other (broader) meanings, there's always ##lisp 2015-12-18T10:19:14Z phoe_krk: the more # a channel has, the broader it is. 2015-12-18T10:19:26Z phoe_krk: so technically on ######lisp you could discuss even algol 2015-12-18T10:19:30Z jackdaniel: I hold the opinion, that "common lisp" and "lisp" doesn't mean the same. I'm not arguing that channel should be renamed 2015-12-18T10:19:30Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:20:16Z jackdaniel: "samochód ciężarowy" and "samochód" doesn't have the same semantic meaning ;p 2015-12-18T10:20:21Z dim: jackdaniel: well seeing WJ on c.l.l. I'm ok with saying that lisp can be used as a synonym for common lisp 2015-12-18T10:20:59Z phoe_krk: I hold the opinion that "common lisp" has an abbreviation called "lisp" that is good enough once you state that you talk about the Common Lisp language and not the Lisp language family. 2015-12-18T10:21:14Z phoe_krk: which this channel does in the very beginning of its topic. 2015-12-18T10:21:32Z jackdaniel: yes, if someone says "lisp" here, I assume he means Common Lisp. It's obvious because of the context. Yet, claiming it means the same isn't obvious at all to me 2015-12-18T10:22:19Z phoe_krk: I find it that way: the moment you (defsynonym 'lisp 'common-lisp) it is acceptable for me. 2015-12-18T10:22:28Z phoe_krk: without that, it's indeed misleading. 2015-12-18T10:22:38Z phoe_krk: with it, I find it actually useful. 2015-12-18T10:22:55Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:23:56Z jackdaniel: this ↑ doesn't make sense to me (in context of my previous answer). Either way, whatever, bbl o/ 2015-12-18T10:24:32Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: I don't claim it means the same, I say that once you define Lisp as a synonym to Common Lisp it starts being useful. 2015-12-18T10:24:47Z phoe_krk: So, if you don't have the context, create it yourself. :P 2015-12-18T10:25:31Z jackdaniel: and my "hmm, nope" was answer to "Means the same thing." ;-) but really, I'll be back later :p 2015-12-18T10:31:21Z loke: I think that is my point; that unless you define Lisp as a synonym to Common Lisp, the word Lisp has no meaning. 2015-12-18T10:34:44Z phoe_krk: loke: it has a meaning, but it's quite unclear and wide, could mean a language in particular, could mean a family of languages, could mean a speech inpediment. 2015-12-18T10:35:04Z phoe_krk: just like you could visit a local shop for a cup of Java. 2015-12-18T10:35:26Z loke: phoe_krk: Even if you limit it to programming, it has no meaning unless suffixed with "-Like-Language" or some such. 2015-12-18T10:35:41Z harish_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:35:57Z phoe_krk: loke: well, I disagree, the word Lisp generally nudges you towards the paren-side of programming :P 2015-12-18T10:36:21Z loke: Frankly, I'm having a hard time coming up with a single sentence using the word "lisp" in a modern programming context unless you define Lisp as Common Lisp, and not continuing with "-like-language". Can you? 2015-12-18T10:37:08Z moore33: In Lisp, symbols are interned. 2015-12-18T10:37:34Z moore33: In Lisp, single quote denotes a literal value. 2015-12-18T10:37:46Z loke: moore33: not true though 2015-12-18T10:37:55Z moore33: ? 2015-12-18T10:37:55Z loke: In Lisp 1.5 there was no such single quote 2015-12-18T10:38:06Z loke: And I believe PicoLisp has no interning 2015-12-18T10:38:20Z phoe_krk: XD 2015-12-18T10:38:25Z phoe_krk: this discussion is getting interesting 2015-12-18T10:38:34Z phoe_krk: just when I have to run for more classes 2015-12-18T10:38:36Z phoe_krk: pfff 2015-12-18T10:38:45Z phoe_krk: Lisp you later guys 2015-12-18T10:38:47Z moore33: Ok, In Lisp, (quote ...) denotes a literal value, which I believe is true enough. 2015-12-18T10:39:09Z phoe_krk: In Lisp, (cons a b) creates a pair. 2015-12-18T10:39:12Z moore33: Just because something calls itself "Lisp" doesn't mean that it is :) 2015-12-18T10:39:12Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-12-18T10:39:25Z loke: moore33: That doesn't sound very natural to me though. In practice, the statement would be "In all Lisps, (quote..." etc. 2015-12-18T10:40:05Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T10:40:08Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:40:28Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2015-12-18T10:41:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T10:42:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:43:30Z grc` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:47:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T10:47:16Z namespace: Do values in a closure get copied? 2015-12-18T10:47:43Z namespace: Or are they references to an original/pointers? 2015-12-18T10:50:56Z wieselchen joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:51:23Z namespace checks, yeah they do 2015-12-18T10:53:15Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2015-12-18T10:54:19Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2015-12-18T10:56:26Z dkcl is now known as narvodkode 2015-12-18T11:01:02Z pjb: guicho: it seems to me that it'd be rather difficult to do what you want (generating compilation-time method dispatching) based on CLOS. To do it, you would need global analysis of the program, to make sure that objects don't change classes, that classes don't change (they could change of superclass at runtime!), and you'd have to change all the generated code calling a generic function. So at the very least, that would require 2015-12-18T11:01:02Z pjb: messing with a lisp compiler. 2015-12-18T11:03:06Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T11:03:55Z pjb: guicho: what you can do easily however, is to write a pair of macros to define static classes and methods, and to send messages; then you can ensure that classes don't make forward references to superclasses, and you can generate function calls directly to the right method (but still thru an ISA and a method table as in Smalltalk/Objective-C, since you don't have run-time type of objects, without a global analysis). 2015-12-18T11:05:15Z blub quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T11:14:12Z wieselchen: Is there an elegant way of using (concat "http://" url) when url doesn't begin with "http://" otherwise use url as it is? 2015-12-18T11:15:23Z Zhivago: (if (starts-with-p a b) a (concat a b)) :) 2015-12-18T11:15:33Z Zhivago: For some notion of starts-with-p and concat. 2015-12-18T11:17:10Z pjb: wieselchen: take a lightsaber, cut off the http:// from url, take a http:// (either the cut off one, or a new one), and graft it back to the url. 2015-12-18T11:20:00Z pjb: guicho: at least, having the methods defined in your define-class macro, will let you map the method names to indexes into the method tables, so when you send the message, you can find the right method immediately with just an (apply (aref (method-table (object-isa object)) method-index) arguments). 2015-12-18T11:20:47Z synchromesh: wieselchen: (defun f (url) (concatenate 'string (subseq "http://" (string/= url "http://") 7) url)) 2015-12-18T11:23:08Z pjb: flip214: One Lisp to rule them all, One Lisp to find them, One Lisp to bring them all, And in the darkness bind them. 2015-12-18T11:23:23Z pjb: flip214: there's only one lisp, Common Lisp. 2015-12-18T11:24:19Z dim: and so many schemes 2015-12-18T11:24:35Z pjb: (defun f (url) (concatenate 'string (subseq "http://" (string/= url "http://") 7) url)) ( #| --> f |# (f "https://hello") #| --> "://https://hello" |# 2015-12-18T11:25:03Z dafunktion is now known as hel-io 2015-12-18T11:25:05Z pjb: (f "high-speed-scheme://hello") #| --> "ttp://high-speed-scheme://hello" |# 2015-12-18T11:25:22Z synchromesh: pjb: (defun f (url) (concatenate 'string (subseq "http://" (if (string= url "http://") 7 0) 7) url)) 2015-12-18T11:25:37Z dim: maybe use puri/quri to do that? 2015-12-18T11:25:38Z pjb: (f "high-speed-scheme://hello") #| --> "http://high-speed-scheme://hello" |# 2015-12-18T11:25:44Z hel-io is now known as hel_io 2015-12-18T11:25:49Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:26:10Z hel_io is now known as hel-io 2015-12-18T11:26:15Z pjb: Zhivago was right, you can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:prefixp. 2015-12-18T11:27:05Z synchromesh: pjb: True, but that wasn't part of the original design spec. :) 2015-12-18T11:27:24Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:29:13Z dim: (let ((uri (quri:uri "hello/"))) (setf (quri:uri-scheme uri) "http") (quri:render-uri uri)) "http:hello/" 2015-12-18T11:29:18Z dim: (let ((uri (quri:uri "http://hello/"))) (setf (quri:uri-scheme uri) "http") (quri:render-uri uri)) "http://hello/" 2015-12-18T11:30:05Z dim: still some work to do, obviously 2015-12-18T11:30:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:32:35Z hel-io quit 2015-12-18T11:32:54Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:38:45Z dafunktion quit 2015-12-18T11:39:01Z zdm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T11:39:03Z hel-io joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:39:29Z hel-io quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T11:39:40Z wieselchen: http://sprunge.us/dPGg This is the best I could come up with 2015-12-18T11:39:44Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:40:43Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:45:10Z dafunktion quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T11:46:56Z dafunktion joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:50:46Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T11:51:57Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-12-18T11:52:14Z dafunktion quit 2015-12-18T11:52:52Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:52:54Z helio joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:55:07Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-18T11:57:56Z guicho: pjb: classes don't change, etc <<< I guess it is possible to throw an error when that happens. by defining several methods like change-class etc. etc. 2015-12-18T11:59:15Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-18T11:59:50Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-12-18T12:01:20Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T12:01:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:03:39Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:12:16Z rme joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:13:36Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T12:15:37Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:15:38Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T12:15:38Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:16:10Z atgreen__ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:16:18Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:17:06Z atgreen_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-18T12:17:27Z atgreen__ is now known as atgreen 2015-12-18T12:18:18Z shookees joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:18:25Z dim: wieselchen: that's Emacs Lisp right? 2015-12-18T12:20:06Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:21:23Z Xach_ has such good feelings about a friday quicklisp dist update 2015-12-18T12:23:35Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T12:24:15Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T12:26:12Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:26:12Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T12:26:12Z HDurer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:28:00Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T12:29:15Z dim: yeah 2015-12-18T12:33:48Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:36:47Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T12:37:54Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T12:47:42Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:48:05Z grc` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T12:50:18Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:51:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:52:10Z marcoecc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T12:52:23Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:52:40Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T12:53:14Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-12-18T12:54:22Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-12-18T12:58:06Z phoe_krk quit (Quit: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/) 2015-12-18T13:00:58Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T13:07:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:08:33Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T13:09:05Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T13:10:36Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:11:47Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:12:14Z phoe_krk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:12:17Z synchromesh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T13:13:49Z zdm quit (Quit: = "") 2015-12-18T13:20:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T13:28:47Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-18T13:29:03Z smokeink quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-12-18T13:32:51Z didi joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:33:05Z didi: Is (if (values) 1 2) defined? 2015-12-18T13:33:53Z mtl_: didi: i dunno, but why would you want to? 2015-12-18T13:34:22Z didi: mtl_: Because (and (function-with-values) other-value) 2015-12-18T13:34:44Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:35:39Z didi: Currently I do (let ((v (multiple-value-list (function-with-values)))) (if l (first v) other-value) 2015-12-18T13:35:40Z mtl_: didi: I think (values) gets forced to nil if used in an expression 2015-12-18T13:35:56Z didi: (forgot to close a paren) 2015-12-18T13:36:00Z didi: mtl_: oic 2015-12-18T13:36:15Z mtl_: clhs values 2015-12-18T13:36:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 2015-12-18T13:36:19Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:36:39Z mtl_: didi: and that's certainly consistent with what I get in the repl 2015-12-18T13:37:12Z didi: mtl_: Yeah, me too. But I was wondering if this was an implementation-dependent thing. 2015-12-18T13:37:21Z didi: SBCL here. 2015-12-18T13:37:54Z didi: Although... what if (values nil)? Hum. 2015-12-18T13:38:22Z mtl_: well I guess that's false too 2015-12-18T13:38:34Z didi: Yeah. 2015-12-18T13:38:40Z mtl_: hang on i've got some lisp implementations around 2015-12-18T13:38:47Z didi: Cool. 2015-12-18T13:39:03Z mtl_: (if (values) 1 2) => 2 2015-12-18T13:39:16Z mtl_: in ccl 2015-12-18T13:39:22Z didi: Nice. 2015-12-18T13:40:09Z mtl_: also, (cons 2 (values)) => 2 2015-12-18T13:40:19Z didi: Interesting. 2015-12-18T13:40:26Z mtl_: oops 2015-12-18T13:40:29Z mtl_: (2) of course 2015-12-18T13:40:36Z didi: Thank you, mtl_. But now (values nil) is a problem for my usage. 2015-12-18T13:40:39Z mtl_: 2 would be seriously messed up 2015-12-18T13:40:49Z mtl_: yeah that does seem to be a problem 2015-12-18T13:41:04Z didi: Oh well. 2015-12-18T13:41:08Z mtl_: I guess multiple-value-list is best? 2015-12-18T13:41:13Z didi: I guess. 2015-12-18T13:41:18Z mtl_: it will naturally be false for no values and true for any values 2015-12-18T13:41:24Z didi nods 2015-12-18T13:42:29Z mtl_: didi: or maybe multiple-value-bind could somehow be useful to you? 2015-12-18T13:43:26Z didi: mtl_: Maybe? I will have to think about it. 2015-12-18T13:44:01Z didi: How complex the var list can be? I will have to look. 2015-12-18T13:44:01Z mtl_: I don't think it has any sort of &rest or &optional though 2015-12-18T13:44:09Z didi: Oh. 2015-12-18T13:44:29Z didi: Then I think I will have to keep using `multiple-value-list'. 2015-12-18T13:44:51Z mtl_: if you really wanted to, you could use destructuring-bind in combination with multiple-value-list 2015-12-18T13:45:50Z didi: mtl_: `let' and `if' look less sophisticated but simpler. 2015-12-18T13:46:29Z mtl_: yeah 2015-12-18T13:47:52Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:48:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T13:48:50Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:51:48Z synchromesh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:52:42Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T13:54:27Z didi` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:55:32Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T13:55:45Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T13:57:35Z ejbs joined #lisp 2015-12-18T13:59:13Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:03:11Z phoe_krk_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:03:26Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:03:43Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T14:04:11Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T14:04:59Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:05:31Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:05:32Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T14:05:32Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:07:26Z phoe_krk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:07:27Z phoe_krk_ is now known as phoe_krk 2015-12-18T14:10:08Z abbe: hi 2015-12-18T14:10:48Z abbe: how do people use 'iterate', for "(use-package :iterate)" results in symbol name conflicts 2015-12-18T14:11:52Z Xach_: abbe: I don't know about iterate specifically, but for conflicts in general, there are a few options: don't do anything and use package prefixes, selectively import the symbols you intend to use, combine "use" with shadowing to choose which symbols to use without prefixes. 2015-12-18T14:12:08Z Xach_: shadowing-import is also an option. 2015-12-18T14:12:12Z Xach_: and there are more options, too 2015-12-18T14:12:23Z abbe: okay 2015-12-18T14:12:58Z abbe: I'm looking for recommended use of iterate, its manual says (use-package...) but that doesn't seem like a straight forward way, without what you suggest 2015-12-18T14:12:59Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-12-18T14:12:59Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-12-18T14:13:15Z oleo: you at top-level ? 2015-12-18T14:13:16Z abbe: otherwise one might as well write: (iter:iterate (iter:for ... iter:in ...) ...) 2015-12-18T14:13:24Z abbe: yes 2015-12-18T14:13:26Z abbe: cl-user 2015-12-18T14:13:29Z Xach_: if there's a conflict between package A and B for symbol FOO, whatever approach you use you will either write: A:FOO and B:FOO, FOO and B:FOO, or A:FOO and FOO. 2015-12-18T14:13:29Z abbe: package 2015-12-18T14:13:38Z oleo: oh 2015-12-18T14:14:13Z Xach_: abbe: what implementation? 2015-12-18T14:14:21Z Xach_: abbe: perhaps it would be better to use a new package rather than CL-USER. 2015-12-18T14:14:58Z Xach_: CL-USER inherits arbitrary things on different implementations. On sbcl, I can (use-package :iterate) without conflict. That suggests to me that a new package that uses only CL would also have no conflict. 2015-12-18T14:15:06Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T14:15:55Z adhoc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:16:02Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:17:13Z abbe: Xach_: so yes, i created a new package :foo, and then use-package-d :cl and :iterate and that works. 2015-12-18T14:17:23Z abbe: thanks! :) 2015-12-18T14:17:32Z adhoc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:18:14Z abbe: and i am on abcl 2015-12-18T14:18:27Z oleo: aaa 2015-12-18T14:18:29Z Xach_: good good 2015-12-18T14:18:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:18:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:19:23Z myrkraverk: What is #2A(...) ? I thought it was two dimensional array, but when I try (make-sequence) with :initial-contents, SBCL tells me #2A(...) is not a sequence. 2015-12-18T14:19:23Z oleo: eheh the functionality of the extended libs of java at hand..... 2015-12-18T14:19:29Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:20:01Z vlatkoB quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T14:20:03Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:20:23Z oleo: one question, does anyone of you use lisp for writing applications on android ? 2015-12-18T14:21:02Z didi`: myrkraverk: Yeah. I think a two dimensional array is not a sequence. 2015-12-18T14:21:04Z flip214: oleo: jackdaniel does ECL for android, perhaps he knows 2015-12-18T14:21:19Z oleo: thank you flip214 2015-12-18T14:21:22Z myrkraverk: Oh, how inconvenient. 2015-12-18T14:21:35Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:21:38Z didi`: "sequence n. 1. an ordered collection of elements 2. a vector or a list. " 2015-12-18T14:22:09Z myrkraverk: How is two dimenasional array not an ordered collection of elements? 2015-12-18T14:22:27Z didi`: Well, it is not a vector nor a list. 2015-12-18T14:22:28Z myrkraverk: But, anyway, I guess I need to go back to the drawing board then, or something. 2015-12-18T14:22:44Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:22:46Z flip214: myrkraverk: you could convert it via a displaced array 2015-12-18T14:23:14Z myrkraverk: Hmm, a displaced array? 2015-12-18T14:23:23Z flip214: clhs make-array 2015-12-18T14:23:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 2015-12-18T14:23:41Z flip214: :displaced-to---an array or nil 2015-12-18T14:24:26Z myrkraverk: oh, right. 2015-12-18T14:26:24Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:27:08Z myrkraverk: Hmm, I don't see how that helps (much) since I want a new array with one more element (of two dimensions). 2015-12-18T14:28:13Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-18T14:28:18Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:28:22Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-12-18T14:28:24Z flip214: then you'll need to copy with two loops anyway 2015-12-18T14:29:00Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:29:01Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-12-18T14:29:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:29:35Z myrkraverk: Oh, I see. 2015-12-18T14:29:44Z fu7mu4 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:30:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:30:10Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:30:11Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-12-18T14:30:15Z narvodkode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:30:53Z wildlander joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:32:43Z warweasle joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:33:05Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:34:16Z Jonsky: I think I encounter the same thing before. I thought 2D array is just an array of arrays but no. 2015-12-18T14:34:28Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:34:38Z hitecnologys: myrkraverk: there's also ROW-MAJOR-AREF which allows iterating over array sequentially. Saved my day once. 2015-12-18T14:34:58Z Jonsky: I had to access the elemnts by (aref (aref arr 2 ) 1) instead of (aref arr 2 1) 2015-12-18T14:35:50Z Xach_: A 2d array is accessed with (aref array i j). 2015-12-18T14:36:33Z Jonsky: Yes I had to find out by trying a bit. 2015-12-18T14:38:26Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:40:05Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:40:14Z sjl quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T14:41:58Z martinb joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:42:10Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:42:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:42:45Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:46:43Z ejbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T14:46:55Z moore33: row-major-aref is great! 2015-12-18T14:46:58Z didi`` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:48:26Z namra joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:48:43Z Denommus quit (Quit: rebooting) 2015-12-18T14:49:00Z Jonsky: After reading CLHS I still don't understand row-major-aref... 2015-12-18T14:49:47Z didi``` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:50:06Z didi` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:50:11Z Zhivago: row-major-aref gives a view of an array as a vector. 2015-12-18T14:51:09Z Jonsky: But I thought 1D array is vector? 2015-12-18T14:51:18Z guicho: with 3x3 array, (aref a 1 2) is simply equivalent to (r-m-aref a (+ (* 3 1) 2)) 2015-12-18T14:51:37Z guicho: (1 and 2 could be opposite) 2015-12-18T14:52:00Z Jonsky: Ah ha I see now 2015-12-18T14:52:14Z Jonsky: Thanks! 2015-12-18T14:53:15Z didi`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T14:53:15Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:53:22Z mtl_: Jonsky: a vector is just the very simple datatype created with (vector ...), arrays are more advanced with stuff like fill pointers, multiple dimensions etc 2015-12-18T14:53:29Z Jonsky: I feel like a thief here stealing knowledge...:) 2015-12-18T14:53:45Z mtl_: (iirc) 2015-12-18T14:53:47Z Zhivago: A vector is an array with a single dimension -- that's the type definition. 2015-12-18T14:54:22Z mtl_: oh right 2015-12-18T14:54:30Z skali joined #lisp 2015-12-18T14:54:37Z Zhivago: Personally, I think they did it backward and should have had an array be a multidimensional view upon a vector, but that's that way it is. 2015-12-18T14:54:38Z mtl_: i guess i was thinking of VECTOR vs MAKE-ARRAY 2015-12-18T14:59:38Z Xach_: make-array can make vectors. 2015-12-18T15:04:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T15:05:19Z helio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T15:05:55Z helio joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:06:03Z mtl_: Xach_: I know. In the sense that I was confusing make-array with the arrays themselves, 2015-12-18T15:06:33Z mtl_: i.e you need make-array for fill-pointers and multiple dimensions etc 2015-12-18T15:07:55Z hitecnologys: Well, I think viewing vector as single-dimensional array is more algebraic. And number is zero-dimensional array. 2015-12-18T15:08:05Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T15:08:40Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:10:46Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:10:48Z cmack`` is now known as cmack 2015-12-18T15:12:28Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:13:27Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-12-18T15:13:58Z rme joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:14:52Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T15:15:00Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:16:01Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:19:04Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T15:19:42Z Sucks joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:19:50Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:21:30Z helio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T15:24:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T15:26:22Z helio joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:28:17Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_meetin 2015-12-18T15:30:24Z pjb: guicho: the point is that the normal generic functions perform their dispatching taking into account the dynamism in CLOS. If you write your own class+method defining macro, and use a send macro, you can compute the "static" function to call at compilation time without too much collateral damage, and rather easily. 2015-12-18T15:30:45Z pjb: guicho: you may also need a send-to-super macro. 2015-12-18T15:31:11Z pjb: send-to-super will be easier and more efficient to implement than send ;-) 2015-12-18T15:32:24Z flambard quit (Quit: kthxbai) 2015-12-18T15:33:53Z guicho: pjb: I'm reading beach's reformatted MOP and gradually understanding the behavior of local macros call-method and make-method. 2015-12-18T15:34:22Z guicho: also the compute-effective-methods and other related things. 2015-12-18T15:36:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:37:50Z guicho: I think overriding these macros would allow me to delegate the method combination part to the standard CLOS while inlining the lambda definition of the method. I already suceeded in storing the result of make-method-lambda to a specialized metaclass called inlined-method (used in pair with inlined-generic-function) 2015-12-18T15:38:18Z easye: Cool! 2015-12-18T15:40:03Z guicho: easye: no, thats not the original. it is http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2015-12-18T15:41:33Z easye: guicho: Thanks. 2015-12-18T15:41:47Z easye: Looks much better. 2015-12-18T15:42:24Z balle` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T15:43:10Z mtl_: one of these days I gotta get into MOP 2015-12-18T15:51:02Z moore33 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:53:12Z BitFipFlap joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:53:35Z pjb: myrkraverk: you can always displace a vector to a multidimensional array! 2015-12-18T15:53:48Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T15:54:17Z BitFipFlap: are those three definitions in MBNF, EBNF and BNF equavilent? http://pastebin.com/baGFnzVR 2015-12-18T15:54:35Z Guest20174 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T15:55:57Z pjb: guicho: 1 and 2 couldn't be exchanged, since CL arrays are specified to be stored in row-major order. This is why it's called ROW-MAJOR-AREF ! 2015-12-18T15:57:20Z guicho: pjb: what I meant is that I do not remember the precise order so it might be otherwise 2015-12-18T15:57:28Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-12-18T15:57:48Z warweasle_meetin is now known as warweasle 2015-12-18T15:59:00Z eschulte: any stefil users have a suggestion for running stefil test in batch mode and generating more verbose failure output? 2015-12-18T15:59:22Z eschulte: `without-debugging' is nice, but I don't get names of failing/erroring tests 2015-12-18T16:02:15Z Guest20174 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:03:01Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:03:20Z martinb left #lisp 2015-12-18T16:03:30Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T16:04:46Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-12-18T16:06:28Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T16:06:39Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T16:07:05Z Xach_ turns on gzip compression on the quicklisp cloudfront distribution 2015-12-18T16:07:26Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:07:55Z Posterdati: hi 2015-12-18T16:08:12Z Jonsky: hi 2015-12-18T16:08:15Z Posterdati: lease I've got a problem with ecl + iolib, I made a project using iolib as dependency, but everytime I quickload the project itself it recompiles iolib and ffi too 2015-12-18T16:08:42Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T16:09:02Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: are you sure it's not the problem of system definition? or asdf? also, if you'll make a build, like described here https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re55.html and shown in examples both in sources and manual 2015-12-18T16:09:06Z jackdaniel: you won't have to quickload anything 2015-12-18T16:09:46Z rme: brucem: Thanks for that pointer to the WebKit locking stuff. I'm especially interested in the parking lot queueing mechanism. 2015-12-18T16:10:05Z jlarocco quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-18T16:11:01Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeverDie 2015-12-18T16:11:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:12:24Z dlowe: Posterdati: I've had that problem. 2015-12-18T16:12:28Z rme: In ccl, the gc suspends all other threads before running. I've been wondering for a while how I could let threads runnning foreign code be exempt from that suspension. If they could park themselves when returning from foreign code, and then have the gc unpark them when it is done, that could work. 2015-12-18T16:12:32Z dlowe: Posterdati: but I don't think I ever actually fixed it 2015-12-18T16:12:54Z Posterdati: :( 2015-12-18T16:13:08Z dlowe: It was mostly just annoying. It never prevented me from doing anything 2015-12-18T16:13:30Z dlowe: I think it may have also been on just one computer 2015-12-18T16:13:38Z BitFipFlap quit 2015-12-18T16:13:40Z Posterdati: I'm compiling on a 200 MHz mips platform 2015-12-18T16:14:31Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: if you'll identify the root cause, or provide the reproductible case I'll work on it when have some free time 2015-12-18T16:14:50Z jackdaniel: post it on the gitlab's issues 2015-12-18T16:15:21Z Posterdati: no time for that now 2015-12-18T16:16:19Z jackdaniel: uhm, then good luck 2015-12-18T16:17:34Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:17:38Z futpib joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:17:47Z barryfm joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:18:07Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-12-18T16:18:48Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2015-12-18T16:21:10Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T16:24:21Z barryfm quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-12-18T16:25:05Z varjagg joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:25:45Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T16:26:33Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T16:28:55Z namra quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-12-18T16:31:01Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-12-18T16:40:40Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:40:56Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:43:01Z zupoman joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:43:02Z zupoman quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T16:43:02Z zupoman joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:43:46Z fu7mu4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T16:47:34Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-12-18T16:48:46Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-12-18T16:50:22Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:51:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T16:57:19Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:57:57Z ramky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T16:58:32Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:58:57Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2015-12-18T16:59:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T17:00:03Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:02:35Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T17:03:45Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:04:36Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:05:06Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T17:05:06Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:13:39Z didi``` left #lisp 2015-12-18T17:17:22Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: Gone) 2015-12-18T17:17:35Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T17:18:44Z mprelude joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:21:22Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:25:02Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-12-18T17:29:22Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2015-12-18T17:33:30Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T17:33:50Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:33:52Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T17:38:11Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-12-18T17:38:58Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:39:07Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:40:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2015-12-18T17:40:36Z Lord_of_- joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:42:59Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T17:43:01Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:44:06Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T17:44:10Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2015-12-18T17:44:24Z f-a joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:44:25Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T17:44:43Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:45:49Z Whymind joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:49:39Z skali joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:50:41Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T17:55:24Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T17:55:26Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:56:02Z Jonsky quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2015-12-18T17:56:05Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T17:56:06Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T17:56:55Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:58:14Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-12-18T17:58:22Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:01:21Z grc` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:01:56Z narvodkode joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:04:47Z switchp0rt: what is a good unit testing framework? 2015-12-18T18:06:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:08:57Z jackdaniel: switchp0rt: I've used 5am, it's nice 2015-12-18T18:09:06Z switchp0rt: jackdaniel link? 2015-12-18T18:09:15Z jackdaniel: http://cliki.net/Test%20Framework 2015-12-18T18:09:26Z f-a left #lisp 2015-12-18T18:10:03Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T18:10:25Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:12:27Z k-stz joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:12:42Z dlowe: switchp0rt: I like stefil 2015-12-18T18:12:47Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:13:00Z dlowe: It's like 5am, but with explosions 2015-12-18T18:13:39Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAu 2015-12-18T18:13:42Z DGASAu is now known as DGASAU 2015-12-18T18:18:05Z agumonkey quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-12-18T18:20:01Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T18:25:16Z Cthulhux: why is there one without explosions? 2015-12-18T18:28:32Z clique joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:28:35Z dlowe: some people don't like explosions, I guess. 2015-12-18T18:29:00Z dlowe: seriously, though, I used rt for some time, which is the simplest possible unit testing framework, and it worked just fine for me. 2015-12-18T18:29:07Z failproofshark: prove is pretty good 2015-12-18T18:29:22Z failproofshark: https://github.com/fukamachi/prove 2015-12-18T18:29:42Z dlowe: shrug. There's really not much to differentiate them. 2015-12-18T18:29:51Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:30:20Z Bike: that's when meshedding is most potent 2015-12-18T18:30:40Z dlowe: as long as you have it evaluate test functions and get back some sort of report, which they all do, then you're good 2015-12-18T18:30:51Z clique left #lisp 2015-12-18T18:32:08Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:32:29Z gaya- joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:33:25Z Guest94409 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:36:16Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: problem seems to be related to iolib, it's iolib that forces to recompile ffi 2015-12-18T18:37:29Z lisse joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:38:17Z lisse quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T18:41:27Z cyraxjoe_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:42:00Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:42:23Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:44:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:46:19Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:52:18Z skali joined #lisp 2015-12-18T18:53:57Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T18:55:53Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T18:56:55Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:57:23Z helio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T18:58:39Z Sucks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T18:59:30Z helio joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:02:06Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:02:17Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T19:03:05Z Warlock[29A] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T19:04:55Z rhg135 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T19:07:11Z Sucks joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:15:34Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T19:18:49Z reggy joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:18:51Z rick-monster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T19:21:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T19:25:45Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:25:45Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:27:11Z shikhin is now known as Shikhin 2015-12-18T19:27:18Z Shikhin is now known as shikhin 2015-12-18T19:32:35Z grc` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T19:33:20Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:34:38Z sebboh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:36:40Z sebboh: See this? https://gist.github.com/FredEckert/3425429 It just opens up /dev/fb0, mmaps it, and writes some bytes. The result is a red square appears on your linux console. (It's a gradient, actually.) How may I do this in common lisp? So far I've found sb-posix:mmap, but no entry exists for it in the sbcl manual. 2015-12-18T19:38:21Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:38:53Z Bike: it's just c mmap. 2015-12-18T19:39:31Z sebboh: Apparently that's a thing people already know about. Hm. 2015-12-18T19:40:06Z Bike: mmap(3), i mean... i don't know if sbcl has the constants, though. 2015-12-18T19:40:25Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T19:41:19Z sebboh: mmap(2)? 2015-12-18T19:42:41Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T19:42:44Z Bike: sbcl doesn't have direct system calls exported 2015-12-18T19:43:04Z Sucks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T19:43:50Z Xach_: i used to have a bit of code to do it 2015-12-18T19:43:54Z sebboh: What's to stop me from just doing x * y * bitdepth to determine that the pixel I want to modify is the Nth character in the /dev/fb0 special file and then writing to it? 2015-12-18T19:44:08Z Xach_: sebboh: nothing 2015-12-18T19:44:18Z sebboh: What does mmap do? 2015-12-18T19:45:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:45:10Z Bike: gives you a block of memory to work with, based on a fd in this case. 2015-12-18T19:45:44Z Bike: it's a posix function, like open and ioctl, also used by this. 2015-12-18T19:46:17Z sebboh: and the block it gives is... just a blob, it has a beginning and end? ..I'd probably want to address it as an array... 2015-12-18T19:46:23Z sebboh: ... or a list. ;P 2015-12-18T19:46:51Z Bike: it gives you a pointer, which you can use as a C array, yes. 2015-12-18T19:47:02Z Xach_: peek and poke 2015-12-18T19:47:18Z sebboh: Xach_ those were the days. 2015-12-18T19:48:04Z Bike: pardon me for asking, but if you're not at least that familiar with posix stuff, are you sure you want to mess with this program? there are easier ways to do graphics. 2015-12-18T19:48:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:48:44Z sebboh: Different question. If you wanted to draw a circle from common lisp, and you don't have a working GL setup... What would you use? 2015-12-18T19:48:53Z grc` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:49:27Z Bike: cairo or something? 2015-12-18T19:49:36Z rpg: I should be testing ASDF on Windows ECL but.... I'm not a windows user and it's not installing successfully. Anyone w/ expertise willing to answer a question or two? 2015-12-18T19:50:19Z sebboh: rpg, expertise is relative, but I happen to have a win7 machine here. 2015-12-18T19:50:52Z sebboh: bike, doesn't that mean talking to xorg via xlib via clx? 2015-12-18T19:51:35Z rpg: sebboh: used the installer and it claimed to complete successfully. But now it says it can't start because MSVCR120.dll is missing from my computer. Does ECL on windows require visual C? 2015-12-18T19:51:46Z Bike: it means using cl-cairo2, which i think works. 2015-12-18T19:52:18Z rpg: sebboh: which CL, what platform? 2015-12-18T19:52:27Z rpg: (re drawing a circle) 2015-12-18T19:52:36Z Bike: i mean, it will probably go through xorg at some point. 2015-12-18T19:53:01Z skali joined #lisp 2015-12-18T19:53:06Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2015-12-18T19:53:13Z sebboh: Bike, regarding why I'm messing with that low level C program, well, the linux framebuffer device is quite nice. I can actually alter that C program to draw whatever sort of line art I want. I get the part of that code that draws the box, I can alter that and see results immediately. Now I just want something like that for CL. I don't want to worry about xwindows, I like the framebuffer. It's just a big array of bytes, like a raw 2015-12-18T19:53:13Z sebboh: bitmap. 2015-12-18T19:54:07Z sebboh: rpg, sbcl on linux with a framebuffer device. (Which is apparently attached to the linux console.) 2015-12-18T19:54:20Z Bike: yeah, but you're expressing a lot of unfamiliarity with working with such things... plus people like having windows that keep to themselves. 2015-12-18T19:54:53Z Bike: if you really want to, it's not that hard. you can use all the same system calls in sb-posix. might have to look up some constants, though. 2015-12-18T19:55:05Z rpg: sebboh: No idea how to deal with a framebuffer device, sorry.... 2015-12-18T19:55:25Z Bike: ah, no, sbcl does define the constants. of course. 2015-12-18T19:56:13Z sebboh: Bike, I want to draw line art pictures with my computer. I've been doing it since I was a child. Literally, sinc before puberty. Just because I don't know C doesn't mean I can't draw the spiral of archimedes on screen... :) 2015-12-18T19:56:52Z sebboh: Bike, hmm. So not just the mmap, but all the calls. That's worth a shot. 2015-12-18T19:56:56Z Bike: "fbp = (char *)mmap(0, screensize, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fbfd, 0)" becomes (mmap 0 screensize (logior prot-read prot-write) map-shared fbfd 0) 2015-12-18T19:57:35Z skali quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T19:59:20Z grc` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T19:59:34Z sebboh: msvcr120.dll is a "redistributable". It is licensed so that you can include it in your installer... It is commonly already installed. Sometimes applications depend on it accidentally, and the devs don't realise it because the dev machine already had it. 2015-12-18T20:00:26Z sebboh: Bike, thank you for the advice. 2015-12-18T20:01:24Z helio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T20:01:52Z warweasle quit (Quit: Time to go) 2015-12-18T20:03:20Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T20:05:37Z rpg: sebboh: thanks. 2015-12-18T20:06:04Z rpg: I wonder if this means my machine is misconfigured, or if there's a bug in the ECL 16 installer. 2015-12-18T20:06:08Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T20:07:28Z jackdaniel: bug? where? what? 2015-12-18T20:07:28Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-12-18T20:08:18Z jackdaniel: rpg: there might be a bug. I've used some existing tool to create the installer 2015-12-18T20:08:47Z jackdaniel never used windows extensively, so felt like doing black magic 2015-12-18T20:08:52Z rpg: jackdaniel: When I try to run ECL after installation, it crashes, complaining I don't have MSVCR120.dll installed. 2015-12-18T20:09:34Z developernotes quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-12-18T20:09:54Z rpg: Thank goodness Toyota doesn't give errors like that for my car! "Sorry, your car won't start because is missing." 2015-12-18T20:10:09Z jackdaniel: hmm, I'll take this into account on the next release (to include this file) 2015-12-18T20:10:49Z rpg: WTF makes MS think that ordinary civilians ought to see these incomprehensible 8-character library names? 2015-12-18T20:11:28Z rhg135 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:12:03Z jackdaniel: rpg: either way, if you don't have concerns regarding the license of ecl itself, you may build it with cygwin 2015-12-18T20:12:09Z jackdaniel: imo much better option 2015-12-18T20:12:09Z sebboh: ECL 16 for windows installed here without error and I was able to execute ecl.exe and get a repl. However, when I clicked the X on the console-looking window, ECL crashed. (rather than cleanly exit) 2015-12-18T20:12:17Z dwchandler: incomprehensible? Microsoft Video Cassette Recorder #120, obviously 2015-12-18T20:12:40Z sebboh: ms visual C runtime 12.0? 2015-12-18T20:13:18Z Bike: microsoft's library loader is probably only seeing "MSVCR120.dll", wouldn't it be the application that has to go "oh, i shouldn't use the default error, I should say 'You're missing so and so from visual studio'?" 2015-12-18T20:13:56Z sebboh: Bike, depends on whether or not the DLL is needed to draw a message on the screen! ;) 2015-12-18T20:14:07Z jackdaniel: :) 2015-12-18T20:14:12Z jackdaniel: have a nice evening everyone o/ 2015-12-18T20:14:13Z sebboh: btw just to be clear I'm not defending, just describing.. ;P 2015-12-18T20:14:59Z sebboh: Meanwhile, rpg, you can install the missing component and then successfully run the ecl you already installed. See https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms235299.aspx 2015-12-18T20:15:59Z Bike: oh, there's the long faq. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-drivers/develop/using_the_microsoft_c_runtime_with_user_mode_drivers_and_apps 2015-12-18T20:16:15Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T20:17:27Z sebboh: ...The link I provided might not include a download link. ...I apologize, and slowly back away from this topic... :( 2015-12-18T20:17:46Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:18:20Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:18:41Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T20:19:10Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:19:41Z developernotes joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:20:29Z sebboh: rpg, what was the last thing you saw before your client died, presumably? 2015-12-18T20:20:33Z Sucks joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:23:04Z rpg_: sebboh: I'll have a look at this some more.... I think I should be able to install this, but .... 2015-12-18T20:23:08Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T20:23:52Z sebboh: rpg, jackdaniel also recommended the cygwin solution. ie, install cygwin and then build ecl. 2015-12-18T20:24:17Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-18T20:30:35Z pjb: / 2015-12-18T20:32:50Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T20:33:24Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T20:33:40Z rpg_: I don't mean to be a troll but if "test ASDF" means "build common lisp implementations from source" all the time, I'm not that excited. 2015-12-18T20:34:45Z rpg_: On Linux or Mac, OK, I can do that. But on Windows, I'm a lot less happy about it. 2015-12-18T20:34:57Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T20:35:30Z sebboh: Well I already have cygwin installed, so I can probably build ecl trivially. 2015-12-18T20:35:41Z sebboh: What does 'test ASDF' consist of? 2015-12-18T20:35:44Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:37:57Z johs joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:39:06Z rpg_: sebboh: Run the ASDF test suite. I run it on ACL, SBCL, ECL, ABCL, CCL, clisp, mkcl, etc. on Mac, Linux, and windows 2015-12-18T20:39:22Z rpg_: sebboh: It's already pretty burdensome, particularly on windows. 2015-12-18T20:40:16Z sebboh: I've never understood how the CL community managed to get all this stuff working on windows, but since they have, I hesitate to let that support bitrot. 2015-12-18T20:41:12Z Xach_: things don't always work on windows 2015-12-18T20:41:33Z dim: that's not just about common lisp either 2015-12-18T20:41:44Z rpg_: so far I have not been testing ECL (because it was for a time un-maintained). I'd like to get it up and running, but reluctant to sign up to build another CL implementation from source, ESPECIALLY on Windows which I barely understand. 2015-12-18T20:42:14Z rpg_: I don't even have a real version of Windows, only a VM. 2015-12-18T20:42:54Z sebboh: yeah, I understand. I'm building ecl on windows. wtf is ecl, btw. ;P 2015-12-18T20:48:10Z sebboh: 3.1.6.7? 2015-12-18T20:49:57Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:52:29Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T20:52:35Z switchp0rt: is there a way to export all functions inside of a package instead of manually listing them all in the (defpackage block? 2015-12-18T20:52:36Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T20:53:10Z Xach_: switchp0rt: yes. 2015-12-18T20:53:21Z Xach_: switchp0rt: it's in the realm of "once you know how to do it, you no longer want to do it" things though. 2015-12-18T20:53:32Z switchp0rt: Xach_ haha, okay thanks 2015-12-18T20:54:13Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-12-18T20:57:51Z jasom: switchp0rt: namespaces work well as long as people do only one of "import all" or "export all" it is a convention in lisp to prefer the former 2015-12-18T20:58:29Z jasom: switchp0rt: so when designing a package you should consider that all exported symbols may be imported by at least one consumer of the package 2015-12-18T20:59:22Z jasom: switchp0rt: also, since it wouldn't be #lisp without a pedantic answer, you don't export functions from a package, you export symbols. Function names are one use of symbols. 2015-12-18T20:59:42Z switchp0rt: right, thank you 2015-12-18T21:00:00Z gaya- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-18T21:00:01Z switchp0rt: this is a great channel and has been an amazing resource as i've started to dig into lisp 2015-12-18T21:00:46Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:00:50Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:02:12Z wallyduchamp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T21:04:18Z jackdaniel: sebboh: :( 2015-12-18T21:06:05Z sebboh: ? 2015-12-18T21:06:05Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:06:55Z jackdaniel: 21:52 < sebboh> yeah, I understand. I'm building ecl on windows. wtf is ecl, btw. ;P 2015-12-18T21:06:59Z sebboh: jack I'm sorry, did I put down ecl? You're an ECL maintainer, correct? 2015-12-18T21:07:04Z dlowe: embedded common lisp 2015-12-18T21:07:09Z jackdaniel: embeddable :p 2015-12-18T21:07:14Z dlowe: oh, never mind 2015-12-18T21:07:33Z sebboh: oh. :) I meant, what is it? Now I know. It's constructed in a way so that it interoperates with C easily. 2015-12-18T21:07:34Z jackdaniel: put down? /me checks the dictionary for an idiom 2015-12-18T21:07:52Z sebboh: put down is like insult. 2015-12-18T21:08:23Z jackdaniel: right, then yeah, that's where ":(" came from ;) no worries 2015-12-18T21:09:04Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T21:10:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:10:36Z jackdaniel wonders, if it would be too frivolous to put such question: "wtf is ecl?" in the FAQ… 2015-12-18T21:10:57Z trinitr0n: Emitter Coupled Logic :) 2015-12-18T21:10:58Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T21:12:40Z mr-pizza joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:12:52Z mr-pizza: profasionals i have a qeustion 2015-12-18T21:13:02Z mr-pizza: should i start with c or with lisp 2015-12-18T21:13:43Z oleo: some c/c++ before lisp does not hurt.... 2015-12-18T21:13:57Z oleo: btw try to get some cs concepts too.... 2015-12-18T21:14:25Z mr-pizza: cs 2015-12-18T21:14:25Z oleo: otherwise it's not a necessary step.... 2015-12-18T21:14:27Z mr-pizza: what is cs 2015-12-18T21:14:33Z oleo: computer science.... 2015-12-18T21:14:35Z mr-pizza: counters trike or c# 2015-12-18T21:14:42Z mr-pizza: aha computer sience 2015-12-18T21:14:53Z mr-pizza: you got a link to the computer sience 2015-12-18T21:14:56Z mr-pizza: i work in the hardware 2015-12-18T21:15:02Z mr-pizza: fixing computers and stuff 2015-12-18T21:15:05Z oleo: join ##cs 2015-12-18T21:15:07Z mr-pizza: installing windows 2015-12-18T21:15:16Z oleo: and ask there for links.... 2015-12-18T21:15:32Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:15:56Z pilne joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:17:32Z fourier: mr-pizza: what for do you need c or lisp? :) 2015-12-18T21:18:19Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:19:46Z fourier: mr-pizza: I guess for your tasks you have to learn Powershell and VBScript first 2015-12-18T21:19:47Z mr-pizza: for the fun 2015-12-18T21:20:06Z mr-pizza: i program for the fun 2015-12-18T21:20:24Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:20:26Z mr-pizza: learning somthings always good 2015-12-18T21:21:30Z mr-pizza: dourtie 2015-12-18T21:21:36Z mr-pizza: fourier 2015-12-18T21:22:11Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T21:22:34Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:23:03Z mr-pizza: i am starting very siroeulsy this weeks 2015-12-18T21:23:05Z fourier: I guess since win is your primary environment, to be productive better to have PowerShell and VBScript in your dispose. Otherwise, for fun - it is always different purposes for different languages. Depending what is fun for you. Learning algorithms and memory fiddling? Then C. Abstractions and functional programming ? some of Lisp dialects could be of use.. 2015-12-18T21:23:14Z mr-pizza: the knowldge have growing up 2015-12-18T21:23:34Z mr-pizza: of course 2015-12-18T21:23:38Z mr-pizza: i am all round 2015-12-18T21:23:42Z dim: I had loads of fun learning common lisp myself 2015-12-18T21:23:53Z dim: I still have racket-lang on my list of fun things to learn 2015-12-18T21:23:55Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:24:04Z dim: http://racket-lang.org 2015-12-18T21:24:05Z mr-pizza: i can hack websites very fast 2015-12-18T21:24:12Z mr-pizza: and finidng leaks 2015-12-18T21:24:17Z mr-pizza: finding leaks very fast 2015-12-18T21:24:29Z dim: mr-pizza: have a look at http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html 2015-12-18T21:24:40Z mr-pizza: dim 2015-12-18T21:25:04Z mr-pizza: i want use linux show i get this old sweet machine 2015-12-18T21:25:06Z mr-pizza: pentium d 2015-12-18T21:25:17Z mr-pizza: tomorow my boss wil give me some 2 gb ddr 2 2015-12-18T21:25:19Z dim: beware that racket isn't a common-lisp, tho 2015-12-18T21:25:21Z fourier: dim: me too, but now I consider it fun but useless experience. Big enterprise language with huge legacy and with seriously outdated by current standards development environments.. 2015-12-18T21:25:23Z mr-pizza: i wil runn fedore on it 2015-12-18T21:25:39Z mr-pizza: fedora* 2015-12-18T21:26:15Z dim: fourier: I'm yet to use something better than Emacs/Slime/SBCL 2015-12-18T21:26:25Z dim: you could argue that CCL is better for development than SBCL 2015-12-18T21:26:34Z dim: anyway 2015-12-18T21:26:35Z shookees quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T21:27:10Z develope_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:27:44Z developernotes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-18T21:27:45Z mr-pizza: i got this book geting starter with fedora in 24 hours 2015-12-18T21:27:49Z mr-pizza: i have to folow this first 2015-12-18T21:28:10Z mr-pizza: show i got some knowldge about linux 2015-12-18T21:28:16Z mr-pizza: than i wil run this C 2015-12-18T21:28:18Z sebboh: mr-pizza: https://github.com/gto76/comp-cpp and https://github.com/gto76/comp-m2 are highly educational. 2015-12-18T21:28:33Z sebboh: and fun. 2015-12-18T21:28:47Z fourier: dim: ok try to refactoring like rename some methods or variables. Extract some part of the function to another function. Automatically add stuff to defpackage :use keyword. you name it. how good all of it in slime or lispworks, it all exists in freaking intellij 2015-12-18T21:29:07Z mr-pizza: sebboh 2015-12-18T21:29:10Z mr-pizza: what is this 2015-12-18T21:29:56Z dim: yeah well, that's true fourier... I'm just not a fan of automating that kind of things, I like to review call sites manually to get sure that refactoring idea was good 2015-12-18T21:30:10Z dim: but I get your point, I'm just saying I don't miss those parts much myself anyway 2015-12-18T21:30:54Z dim: anyway, gn here! 2015-12-18T21:30:56Z Xach_: I wish there were more automagic things in slime 2015-12-18T21:31:56Z Xach_: Someone has to make them, though 2015-12-18T21:32:02Z fourier: dim: intellij shows you the preview of refactoring. and visual studio and eclipse. basically all modern IDEs. And yet I use emacs for my c++/python/xsl/other languages since I like to modify my environment. But I HAVE to live with absence of its features. Not to say I enjoy it. 2015-12-18T21:32:03Z sebboh: mr-pizza, both of those two links are emulations of simple computers. These are useful if you're too young to have experienced simple, deterministic computers before you experienced the hot, messy piles of software that we call computers today. :) 2015-12-18T21:32:24Z Xach_: It's hard to process arbitrary common lisp 2015-12-18T21:32:25Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:33:13Z mr-pizza: sebboh 2015-12-18T21:33:22Z mr-pizza: intristting 2015-12-18T21:33:36Z fourier: Xach_: I don't know, you have running image all the time, and probably it is possible to trace the function definition changes and reapply them to source files etc; as well as do some refactoring. It is just not implemented :( 2015-12-18T21:34:07Z mr-pizza: i am wating for the ddr2 show i can run this fedora 2015-12-18T21:34:14Z mr-pizza: on that machine 2015-12-18T21:34:36Z sebboh: paredit-mode + keyboard macros - I'm less proficient at lisp cf. java = I don't even notice that emacs can't do various refactorings... 2015-12-18T21:34:42Z mr-pizza: i know some hardware 2015-12-18T21:35:02Z sebboh: mr-pizza: I recommend debian. 2015-12-18T21:35:11Z fourier: sebboh: of course since you never used them you can't notice :) 2015-12-18T21:35:42Z sebboh: fourier: well I'm also an Eclipse user... :P 2015-12-18T21:36:01Z sebboh: Wherein you basically refactor more than you type. ;) 2015-12-18T21:36:27Z mr-pizza: sebboh can you help me 2015-12-18T21:36:30Z mr-pizza: i want be a programmer 2015-12-18T21:36:33Z mr-pizza: sirously 2015-12-18T21:36:43Z Xach_: fourier: keeping track of locations seems like a challenge to me, in the worst case 2015-12-18T21:37:38Z sebboh: mr-pizza ok, get to work on these instructions: https://github.com/gto76/comp-m2/#windows 2015-12-18T21:38:06Z Bicyclidine: one hertz. very civil. 2015-12-18T21:38:16Z Xach_: fourier: it's possible that it's actually not too hard and nobody has tackled it, though. 2015-12-18T21:38:26Z mr-pizza: sebboh can i run this on the pentium d from the cd 2015-12-18T21:38:35Z mr-pizza: i have this old dell pc whit windows xp 2015-12-18T21:38:35Z fourier: Xach_: but seriosly, in normal use-cases(I'm not talking about debugging remote satellite, but rather normal day-to-day development), how hard could it be? You either fix function in repl or in file or in some other buffer. as soon as you execute it the source should be tracked somehow. It is just not implemented :( 2015-12-18T21:38:39Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure how much sense this readme is going to make to somebody who couldn't write this themselves. 2015-12-18T21:38:49Z mr-pizza: that i dident work on for a while 2015-12-18T21:39:43Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:40:04Z Xach_: fourier: I'm mostly thinking about read-time evaluation and reader macros and things like that 2015-12-18T21:40:07Z sebboh: mr-pizza: I don't know. You'll have to follow the instructions. That means, read, then take an action, then read some more. Evaluate the results of your actions.. determine if they match what the author of the instructions imagined would happen. If your results don't match, then form a question about the difference. No more questions until then! Go! 2015-12-18T21:41:24Z rpg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T21:41:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:41:39Z sebboh: Bicyclidine: I don't know how to write the comp or comp-m2 by myself, but I do understand what it is doing, that is, I understand the readme and I have written programs for the comp. 2015-12-18T21:41:47Z mr-pizza: it is litte bitt hard 2015-12-18T21:41:52Z mr-pizza: i cant understand it very good 2015-12-18T21:42:35Z mr-pizza: Simple 4-bit/1 Hz virtual computer for learning purposes 2015-12-18T21:42:36Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: like, for example, most non programmers i know would be stuck at "register". 2015-12-18T21:42:51Z Bicyclidine: or "ram", or especially "address space". 2015-12-18T21:43:00Z sebboh: mr-pizza: I "wasted" years of my life using a dictionary to figure out sentences I didn't understand. Try that? 2015-12-18T21:43:43Z fourier: sebboh: personally I don't use Eclipse. When I need java, there is IntelliJ IDEA which is fast and powerful, making the whole development really enjoyable. For C++ Emacs is ok, since for any more/less advanced C++ code (inside templates at least) code completion and refactoring will be broken anyways in any IDE, so I don't care. Not what I enjoy it. 2015-12-18T21:43:48Z zotherstupidguy quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2015-12-18T21:43:51Z sebboh: Bicyclidine: mr-pizza introduced himself as a hardware person. He has named a specific model of CPU earliler. 2015-12-18T21:43:53Z cadadar quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T21:43:55Z Bicyclidine: mr-pizza: you should read a book. like "A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" for instance. 2015-12-18T21:44:05Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:44:09Z mr-pizza: guys 2015-12-18T21:44:15Z mr-pizza: i want be a programmer 2015-12-18T21:44:16Z mr-pizza: oke 2015-12-18T21:44:21Z mr-pizza: that is the goal 2015-12-18T21:44:25Z sebboh: Or "Code" by Petzold. 2015-12-18T21:44:27Z mr-pizza: making real software 2015-12-18T21:44:33Z josteink_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:44:33Z Bicyclidine: okay. read a book. 2015-12-18T21:44:36Z mr-pizza: i know how cpu work 2015-12-18T21:44:42Z mr-pizza: the instrution 2015-12-18T21:44:48Z mr-pizza: input output 2015-12-18T21:44:51Z mr-pizza: pci bus 2015-12-18T21:45:06Z mr-pizza: data transfer 2015-12-18T21:45:13Z mr-pizza: the cpu get data 2015-12-18T21:45:26Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:45:27Z mr-pizza: he use mathmetic or osmthing 2015-12-18T21:45:36Z mr-pizza: than he check for the instruction 2015-12-18T21:45:40Z mr-pizza: and send it to the ram 2015-12-18T21:46:11Z mr-pizza: int d = 20; 2015-12-18T21:46:15Z fourier: Xach_: yes, I understand. But I doubt it is like more than 30% of actual CL development :) 2015-12-18T21:46:15Z mr-pizza: this is a interger 2015-12-18T21:46:23Z mr-pizza: printf("%d",d); 2015-12-18T21:46:25Z Bicyclidine: okay, this is probably off topic, and you're talking up some space... 2015-12-18T21:46:36Z mr-pizza: sorry guys 2015-12-18T21:46:47Z Bicyclidine: try ##lisp, maybe? i dunno. 2015-12-18T21:46:50Z fourier: mr-pizza: you are on the wrong channel 2015-12-18T21:46:56Z dwchandler: mr-pizza: The book recommended above is free at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-12-18T21:47:03Z mr-pizza: i will check it 2015-12-18T21:47:05Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T21:47:05Z josteink_ is now known as josteink 2015-12-18T21:47:09Z mr-pizza: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 2015-12-18T21:47:18Z mr-pizza: sebboh 2015-12-18T21:47:30Z mr-pizza: i wil come back some times whe have to talk soon 2015-12-18T21:47:39Z mr-pizza: first i have to run the fedora 2015-12-18T21:47:43Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:47:55Z rpg_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-12-18T21:47:57Z mr-pizza: i wil finish the book of fedora before i can really become a linux user :D 2015-12-18T21:48:31Z mr-pizza: i do programming because i like it 2015-12-18T21:48:44Z mr-pizza: i enjoying it when i programming somthing 2015-12-18T21:49:33Z mr-pizza: but you guys know more than me 2015-12-18T21:49:43Z mr-pizza: that is why i have to ask you folks 2015-12-18T21:49:51Z fourier: mr-pizza: for the time you've spent here you have been able to write a quicksort or linked list and enjoy it even more 2015-12-18T21:49:56Z mr-pizza: what should i know before to becoe like jamie zawinski 2015-12-18T21:50:01Z mr-pizza: or lou montulli 2015-12-18T21:50:12Z dwchandler: go read that book! 2015-12-18T21:50:48Z dwchandler: jwz read things 2015-12-18T21:50:59Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T21:51:06Z mr-pizza: i have read many books 2015-12-18T21:51:11Z mr-pizza: my friend 2015-12-18T21:51:14Z sebboh: I don't believe you! 2015-12-18T21:51:25Z josteink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T21:51:35Z mr-pizza: quran c programming c# programming html 2015-12-18T21:51:41Z mr-pizza: pentatration testing 2015-12-18T21:51:53Z mr-pizza: windows 7 in a nutsell 2015-12-18T21:51:58Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:51:59Z Bicyclidine: seriously, this is off topic. stop. we don't really care about your credentials. we can answer questions but you don't need to go on about this. 2015-12-18T21:52:09Z mr-pizza: oke oke sorry guys 2015-12-18T21:52:19Z mr-pizza: i am kind of a elite 2015-12-18T21:52:37Z dwchandler: we can tell 2015-12-18T21:52:42Z mr-pizza: hahhaha 2015-12-18T21:52:44Z mr-pizza: lmao 2015-12-18T21:52:55Z mr-pizza: do sombody play kinf og fighters on a arcade 2015-12-18T21:53:13Z leb joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:54:00Z mr-pizza: jwz diden read much 2015-12-18T21:54:07Z mr-pizza: he wash a hard worker i guess 2015-12-18T21:54:21Z Bicyclidine: Stop. 2015-12-18T21:55:10Z mr-pizza: dwchandler my friend 2015-12-18T21:55:14Z mr-pizza: i have seen you picture 2015-12-18T21:55:18Z mr-pizza: you not the type of person 2015-12-18T21:55:27Z mr-pizza: that know how to code like montulli and jwz 2015-12-18T21:56:40Z modula joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:56:44Z dwchandler: no. I read too much 2015-12-18T21:57:03Z dwchandler: it's obvious from my picture 2015-12-18T21:57:08Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-12-18T21:57:38Z Xach_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-12-18T21:57:43Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T21:57:44Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2015-12-18T21:57:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T21:59:05Z mr-pizza: i want to know how this lou montulli 2015-12-18T21:59:10Z mr-pizza: thit stuff like this 2015-12-18T21:59:14Z mr-pizza: sirously 2015-12-18T22:00:08Z mr-pizza: this programming needs thinking 2015-12-18T22:00:15Z mr-pizza: you have to think what you want to built 2015-12-18T22:00:44Z TMM joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:02:07Z mr-pizza: ??? 2015-12-18T22:04:48Z mr-pizza: i am working on codeacedamy 2015-12-18T22:04:54Z mr-pizza: an khan acadamy 2015-12-18T22:04:59Z mr-pizza: is this good or what ?? 2015-12-18T22:05:24Z mr-pizza: the problem is where i life 2015-12-18T22:05:37Z mr-pizza: this is not same place where you live 2015-12-18T22:05:58Z mr-pizza: for me it is much harder 2015-12-18T22:07:39Z psilord` joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:08:17Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T22:11:02Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2015-12-18T22:12:40Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:13:06Z moore33 joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:15:18Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-18T22:17:26Z Yanez quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T22:17:47Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T22:21:53Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T22:23:40Z josteink joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:25:37Z mr-pizza: folks 2015-12-18T22:26:28Z mr-pizza: have a nice day 2015-12-18T22:27:10Z mr-pizza quit 2015-12-18T22:28:33Z n_blownapart joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:29:51Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T22:30:38Z scottj left #lisp 2015-12-18T22:31:15Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:32:25Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:37:15Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-18T22:37:26Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T22:41:42Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-12-18T22:42:59Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:43:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-12-18T22:45:28Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-12-18T22:47:58Z jasom: is there any way to copy an array? I can't use :initial-elements for a multidimensional array 2015-12-18T22:48:19Z Bicyclidine: there's one in alexandria, i think. 2015-12-18T22:48:26Z jasom: Bicyclidine: yeah, just thought to check there... 2015-12-18T22:49:12Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:49:30Z Bicyclidine: i think it basically flattens the incoming array to let it work for :initial-elements. 2015-12-18T22:49:34Z Bicyclidine: initial-content. whatever. 2015-12-18T22:50:32Z Bicyclidine: oh. no, it just makes an array and then runs through filling it up with row-major-aref. 2015-12-18T22:52:29Z badkins joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:53:36Z nonopposition quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T22:54:04Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2015-12-18T22:54:22Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: final final) 2015-12-18T22:54:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:55:29Z learning joined #lisp 2015-12-18T22:58:08Z psilord` left #lisp 2015-12-18T23:00:28Z develope_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-12-18T23:01:22Z nonopposition joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:04:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:05:51Z narvodkode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T23:06:26Z pjb: jasom: I have a copy-array function. 2015-12-18T23:06:39Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:copy-array 2015-12-18T23:07:48Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-18T23:14:21Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-12-18T23:17:17Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-18T23:17:58Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:19:02Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-18T23:20:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:20:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T23:20:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:21:36Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:22:15Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:22:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-12-18T23:24:39Z arnaudga: hi guys, I can't figure out how to step in my code, and the doc of sbcl is not clear for me :-( will you have a link to a concret example please ? 2015-12-18T23:24:46Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-18T23:26:13Z zdm joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:30:50Z dkcl is now known as narvodkode 2015-12-18T23:31:34Z Polyphony joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:32:32Z Polyphony: probably going to buy practical common lisp, do you guys think the newest edition is worth the 20 extra dollars from amazon? Is there another place you would recommend buying it from? 2015-12-18T23:34:34Z failproofshark: Polyphony: well it's online for free, the only thing I remember is that there's an error about how mapcar functions (iirc) 2015-12-18T23:34:54Z failproofshark: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2015-12-18T23:35:15Z failproofshark: but if you're set on buying it. I simply got mine on Amazon 2015-12-18T23:35:30Z failproofshark: *how mapcar works rather 2015-12-18T23:35:48Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-18T23:36:02Z Polyphony: I knew about the online text, but I think i'd like a hardcopy too. 2015-12-18T23:36:56Z failproofshark: ah (sorry just mentioned it just in case you didnt know) 2015-12-18T23:37:23Z Polyphony: I'll probably buy from amazon as well, i appreciate the note about mapcar, is it fixed in the online text? 2015-12-18T23:37:55Z failproofshark: oh I meant that the print version is correct, the online text had it wrong 2015-12-18T23:38:03Z Polyphony: hmm 2015-12-18T23:40:37Z failproofshark: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12716371/common-lisps-copy-tree-which-objects-will-be-referenced-in-common-by-the-origi 2015-12-18T23:40:53Z failproofshark: sorry it was copy-tree not mapcar (just so happens they are explained in the same chapter) 2015-12-18T23:44:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:44:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-12-18T23:44:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-12-18T23:59:00Z jlarocco2 joined #lisp