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2015-10-22T03:13:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-10-22T03:14:08Z Quadrescence: hello beach
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2015-10-22T03:16:04Z blubjr: hi beach
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2015-10-22T03:39:37Z drmeister: Hello
2015-10-22T03:39:39Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-10-22T03:40:00Z drmeister: How many CL functions in SBCL are inlined?
2015-10-22T03:40:33Z nyef: As in "how many functions written in CL are inlined?" or "how many functions in the CL package are inlined?"
2015-10-22T03:40:53Z nyef: And does that include those which can be open-coded, but for which the fallback is a full-call?
2015-10-22T03:41:07Z drmeister: Let's say the latter.    I learned today that C++ inlines lots of small functions, whether you ask it to or not.
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2015-10-22T03:41:37Z Zhivago: CL is permitted to do so within the same file, or where inline declarations allow.
2015-10-22T03:41:47Z beach: Hello drmeister.  It makes sense on today's processors to inline a lot.
2015-10-22T03:42:00Z drmeister: That begs another question. What is the difference between open-coded functions and inlining?
2015-10-22T03:42:01Z Zhivago: It's essentially limited by the semantics of function redefinition.
2015-10-22T03:42:34Z drmeister: How do you indicate that a function should be open-coded in Common Lisp?
2015-10-22T03:44:12Z nyef: So, inlining is where the compiler bodily includes a function in place of a call site. Open-coding is where the compiler says "I know what to do with a call to this function under these circumstances" and does what it thinks is appropriate.
2015-10-22T03:44:39Z Zhivago: Which puts open-coding in the domain of compiler-macros as far as the user is concerned.
2015-10-22T03:45:17Z drmeister: So open-coding is compiler-macros?
2015-10-22T03:45:42Z drmeister thinks "in the domain of" will mean "not exactly"
2015-10-22T03:45:49Z nyef: Consider SBCL's implementation of TWO-ARG-+, or most other two-arg versions of math functions. There's the full-call option, which does a dispatch on both arguments to figure out how to deal with it...
2015-10-22T03:46:15Z nyef: And if the compiler can work out both argument types and has a template (VOP) for how to deal with it, it uses the VOP instead of coding a full call.
2015-10-22T03:46:48Z beach: drmeister: The term "open coding" is traditionally used in languages that do not have compiler macros, so it is more like a fixed set of rules in the compiler.
2015-10-22T03:47:02Z drmeister: Ah.
2015-10-22T03:47:02Z Zhivago: Well, the compiler's implementation doesn't need to be via compiler-macros -- they're just the facility exposed to users.
2015-10-22T03:48:00Z nyef: Note that compiler-macros are required to expand to lisp code, while an open-coded function does not.
2015-10-22T03:48:09Z drmeister: I see.  So I could implement my own "open-coded" functions as compiler macros.
2015-10-22T03:48:59Z beach: I suggest we reserve the term "open coding" in Common Lisp for functionality that is not accessible to the application programmer and that is implemented as a fixed set of rules in the compiler.
2015-10-22T03:49:26Z drmeister: Sure.
2015-10-22T03:49:29Z nyef: "open-coded" functions are typically things like FIXNUM-FIXNUM math, with possible BIGNUM result (or with known FIXNUM result).
2015-10-22T03:49:29Z beach: ... since we already have the term "compiler macros" for the mechanism available4 to the application programmer.
2015-10-22T03:49:42Z beach: available
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2015-10-22T03:50:24Z nyef: Or AREF for a particular vector specialization.
2015-10-22T03:50:27Z nyef: Things like that.
2015-10-22T03:50:35Z beach: drmeister: You can consider the CLEAVIR-PRIMOP functions as a way to tell the compiler about open-coded functions.
2015-10-22T03:50:49Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-10-22T03:51:09Z nyef: Yes, a lisp function that gets transformed into a "primitive operation" would be open-coded.
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2015-10-22T04:20:19Z White_Flame: "open coded" as I understand it, is that there's no prologue/epilogue boundary to a code block.  Both ends are simply "open" to the current context around them.  So a block of code that is shoved inline into a function (like a C asm block) would be open-coded.
2015-10-22T04:20:47Z Quadrescence: has anyone ever thought about how one might implement in a lisp compiler/runtime efficient representation of array of structures?
2015-10-22T04:22:08Z Zhivago: Hmm, how about as an array of structures?
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2015-10-22T04:22:48Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, Which converts to an array of pointers to some random place in the heap
2015-10-22T04:23:09Z Zhivago: So you want cache coherence?
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2015-10-22T04:23:26Z White_Flame: well, one way to increase efficiency, depending on traversal style, is to have an array of the struct's first field, then an array of the struct's second field, etc, losing the actual in-memory structure boundaries.  But there can be some real caching advantages to that, especially if linking or searching on a field in particular
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2015-10-22T04:23:40Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, I've implemented that
2015-10-22T04:23:46Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, Cache, decreased memory
2015-10-22T04:23:58Z Zhivago: Most lisp systems use words to represent values.
2015-10-22T04:23:58Z White_Flame: but I wouldn't call that "an array of structs" anymore
2015-10-22T04:24:16Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, that's struct of arrays :)
2015-10-22T04:24:21Z Zhivago: You may find that a single array of type T of size S * M with suitable accessors may work.
2015-10-22T04:24:22Z White_Flame: sure :)
2015-10-22T04:24:47Z Zhivago: But it sounds like a significant amount of work for probably minimal return.
2015-10-22T04:25:47Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, the WIP for implementing that is https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/master/struct-arrays.lisp
2015-10-22T04:26:27Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, Yeah, the return might not be high, except where it's useful. For me it's representing meshes of 10s of millions of vertices and doing operations on the mesh
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2015-10-22T04:27:18Z White_Flame: 10/Ns of millions handled per core, hopefully
2015-10-22T04:27:38Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, this is an expansion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157280
2015-10-22T04:27:59Z Quadrescence: I haven't even tried to handle multithreading, since I don't even have the algorithms figured out fully
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2015-10-22T05:12:37Z Quadrescence: with fixes http://paste.lisp.org/display/157280#1
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2015-10-22T06:14:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Should something like this be considered an abuse of the condition system: http://paste.lisp.org/+3DD0
2015-10-22T06:14:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: ?
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2015-10-22T06:15:02Z Shinmera: Couldn't you just use blocks and return-from for this?
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2015-10-22T06:15:38Z Shinmera: And if you need non-local exits, you could use CATCH and THROW
2015-10-22T06:16:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess so, I was more wondering whether conditions should be considered to be strictly "errors" or not
2015-10-22T06:16:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: PCL seems to leave it open
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2015-10-22T06:16:52Z Shinmera: Another possibility would be restarts, by the way.
2015-10-22T06:17:33Z Shinmera: Either way, I'd consider it bad taste to use conditions in this case where other operators work just as well and don't require creating strange classes.
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2015-10-22T06:18:45Z Quadrescence: fiddlerwoaroof, conditions are most certainly not necessarily errors
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2015-10-22T06:20:34Z blubjr: hi munksgaard
2015-10-22T06:20:48Z munksgaard: Hi blubjr :)
2015-10-22T06:21:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: one nice thing about conditions, is that inheritance would let you give a bit of structure to the data a particular generator returns
2015-10-22T06:22:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: (although, I'm not necessarily familiar enough with the other mechanisms to compare them . . .)
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2015-10-22T06:25:00Z White_Flame: because you're calling a body of code at the site of the condition being raised, I think it's sort of a valid use.  However, I think this could be done to simply pass the with-generator &body through as a lambda, and have YIELD call it
2015-10-22T06:25:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: How would you get the same effect with blocks? Doesn't return-from unwind the stack, which would break YIELD?
2015-10-22T06:26:05Z Shinmera: Oh- right.
2015-10-22T06:26:10Z Shinmera: I missed the handler-bind.
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2015-10-22T06:27:22Z White_Flame: this certainly looks like it's written more to continuation style.  Try doing a loop where you're getting a generator value 10 times
2015-10-22T06:27:26Z Shinmera: I'm kind of struggling to understand what this would be useful for now.
2015-10-22T06:28:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was reading pcl
2015-10-22T06:29:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I thought that conditions could be used to make something like Python's generators
2015-10-22T06:30:36Z White_Flame: nope, you have to wind the source code around to create actual continuations
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2015-10-22T06:31:43Z White_Flame: there's a cl-cont in quicklisp that can help
2015-10-22T06:32:05Z White_Flame: (if other libs aren't more recent)
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2015-10-22T06:33:54Z Xof: Xach: pretty sure that wasn't me.  Maybe dan_b?
2015-10-22T06:35:26Z White_Flame: I personally think that the simplest way to get generators going in languages without native support is to use threads
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2015-10-22T06:38:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: It took me a while, but I think I just realized what you've been pointing out
2015-10-22T06:38:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I didn't think about the "next value" part of generators when I wrote this.
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2015-10-22T06:39:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I had been more focused on the "lazy sequence" part
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2015-10-22T06:41:15Z H4ns: fiddlerwoaroof: have a look at series, it implements something very similar to clojure's lazy sequences.  and transducers, for what it is worth.
2015-10-22T06:41:28Z White_Flame: your sequences aren't even lazy.  Once you start a generator, you're not going to stop it unless you unwind the stack
2015-10-22T06:42:05Z White_Flame: while that could be part of its tooling, it does seem like your sequences are "run to completion" normally
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2015-10-22T06:42:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: But the calculations happen as the sequences are generated so, for example, if the body of with-sequence waits for input, execution would suspend
2015-10-22T06:42:30Z White_Flame: (taking "lazy" to mean that values are never calculated if they're not needed)
2015-10-22T06:43:01Z White_Flame: for instance, taking the first 3 elements of the generator is something a proper lazy system could do, without calculating anything else
2015-10-22T06:43:11Z White_Flame: you'd have to bust out oft he stack to prevent 4-10 from being generated
2015-10-22T06:43:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's a good point.
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2015-10-22T07:49:55Z Xof: Xach: or Edi, maybe
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2015-10-22T11:31:29Z Xach: The blog post must be lost to the abyss
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2015-10-22T12:39:58Z jeffrin: hello all
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2015-10-22T12:40:56Z jeffrin: can lisp be used in web application ?
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2015-10-22T12:44:06Z pjb: jeffrin: yes.
2015-10-22T12:44:32Z pjb: jeffrin: Paul Graham earned millions and became a VC by writing a web application in CL with clisp.
2015-10-22T12:44:51Z pjb: jeffrin: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
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2015-10-22T12:46:12Z pjb: jeffrin: http://www.paulgraham.com/vwfaq.html
2015-10-22T12:46:18Z jackdaniel: jeffrin: there are a few web frameworks written in Common Lisp as well as a few web servers. It's pretty common way of app deployment
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2015-10-22T12:47:43Z Zhivago: On the other hand, correlation is not causation.
2015-10-22T12:48:17Z pjb: Zhivago: he didn't ask for a causality, but for an existance proof.
2015-10-22T12:48:30Z jackdaniel: he didn't ask for a proof
2015-10-22T12:48:46Z pjb: Next time I'll just answer "yes".
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2015-10-22T12:52:47Z jeffrin: is there any book to learn web app development using lisp
2015-10-22T12:53:24Z jackdaniel: jeffrin: there was a book "Lisp for the Web" - didn't read it though
2015-10-22T12:54:13Z jackdaniel: there is a channel #lispweb, maybe people there will be more helpful with learning material recommendations
2015-10-22T12:55:00Z jackdaniel: s/was/is/
2015-10-22T12:55:38Z jeffrin: pjb jackdaniel Zhivago : thank you all :)
2015-10-22T12:58:22Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-10-22T14:40:32Z DeadTrickster: what documentation generation system currently is the best?
2015-10-22T14:40:46Z Xach: There is no consensus best system
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2015-10-22T14:45:11Z nyef: For that matter, there is no consensus best form for documentation.
2015-10-22T14:45:16Z DeadTrickster: ha
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2015-10-22T14:45:54Z DeadTrickster: I want to extract as much metadata as I can i.e. I want type annotations for args and stuff, like in Java or Ruby world
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2015-10-22T14:46:11Z jackdaniel: we have just a partial order… (> 'any-documentation 'no-documentation) ;)
2015-10-22T14:47:24Z DeadTrickster: Also Visual Studio has intellisense. slime can 'predict' next argument (even keyword) but what about showing me comment associated with arguments?
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2015-10-22T14:48:34Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: maybe consider https://github.com/CommonDoc/codex
2015-10-22T14:48:49Z DeadTrickster: I'll answer my question - cl community should agree on syntax first which will never happen
2015-10-22T14:48:50Z eudoxia: it generates things like http://ceramic.github.io/docs/introduction.html
2015-10-22T14:48:51Z DeadTrickster: lol
2015-10-22T14:49:08Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, I currently reading the docs
2015-10-22T14:49:28Z eudoxia: not the API reference part, where you can source code docstrings
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2015-10-22T14:50:40Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, what I want is for example this: lets say I have defmethod ((arg foo)) I want foo to be a link to foo class definition if it is a part of the project of course
2015-10-22T14:51:02Z DeadTrickster: or maybe even if it is not
2015-10-22T14:51:16Z DeadTrickster: because all deps are easily traceable
2015-10-22T14:51:46Z DeadTrickster: all CL systems are either dead or immature (or maybe too personal)
2015-10-22T14:52:13Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: Compared to?
2015-10-22T14:52:44Z DeadTrickster: loke_`, compared to ruby java, .net world
2015-10-22T14:53:16Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: There are insane masses of unmaintained libraries in those worlds too.
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2015-10-22T14:54:25Z DeadTrickster: so what? hows it related to the topic?
2015-10-22T14:54:38Z loke_`: DeadTrickster: I don't know what the topic is :-)
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2015-10-22T14:54:50Z DeadTrickster: ;-)
2015-10-22T14:55:01Z DeadTrickster: I'm discussing docs generation
2015-10-22T14:55:06Z DeadTrickster: and slime tooltips
2015-10-22T14:55:16Z eudoxia: i haven't implemented automatic linking in Codex mostly because it's a prose+api documentation generator
2015-10-22T14:55:27Z eudoxia: if it was a pure API docs generator, then automatic linking would be possible
2015-10-22T14:55:33Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, yeah too personal
2015-10-22T14:55:37Z DeadTrickster: as I said
2015-10-22T14:55:48Z DeadTrickster: to many libs based only on author use-cases
2015-10-22T14:55:52Z eudoxia: however i don't like those because they encourage people to just slap together an API reference and not write tutorials
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2015-10-22T14:56:18Z eudoxia: DeadTrickster: Codex is implemented along the lines of Sphinx, which many people use productively
2015-10-22T14:56:22Z DeadTrickster: eudoxia, ruby people write huge comments that include everything even tutorials
2015-10-22T14:56:39Z eudoxia: prose goes outside the docstrings
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2015-10-22T14:56:54Z DeadTrickster: if author or contributor wants to write tutorials nothing can stop him
2015-10-22T14:56:56Z pjb: eudoxia: Prose about what?
2015-10-22T14:57:10Z eudoxia: pjb: a high-level overview or tutorial of the project
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2015-10-22T14:57:39Z pjb: eudoxia: prose about the functions defined in a package, should go in the package docstring.
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2015-10-22T14:57:52Z eudoxia: sure, that's fine
2015-10-22T14:57:55Z pjb: eudoxia: prose about the package defined by a system, should go in the system description.
2015-10-22T14:58:24Z pjb: And projects will usually have an umbrella system definition, to load the other systems, so the prose you mentionned should go there.
2015-10-22T14:59:06Z pjb: eudoxia: now, granted, I notice that docstring extraction doesn't take into account the system definition descriptions :-(  This is a valid bug report/feature request.
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2015-10-22T14:59:31Z eudoxia: pjb: you mean in Codex? no, there's no way yet to extract package or system definitions
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2015-10-22T15:00:24Z Shinmera: staple uses the system definition description.
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2015-10-22T15:01:05Z eudoxia: but staple is a README + API reference, Codex is more "write prose and insert docstrings here and there"
2015-10-22T15:01:23Z Shinmera: I should get around to doing the cross-reference link thing, but I don't really ever need it, so it's hard to get bothered to add it.
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2015-10-22T15:03:22Z pjb: eudoxia: I mean I know of no documentation extractor that consider the description or long-description of the asdf system.
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2015-10-22T15:04:29Z eudoxia: pjb: Quickdocs http://quickdocs.org/lucerne/
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2015-10-22T15:38:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: is there something special I need to do to get smoke to work on a mac?
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2015-10-22T15:39:01Z fiddlerwoaroof has figured this out before but system updates broke everything
2015-10-22T15:39:47Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs
2015-10-22T15:39:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157296#1
2015-10-22T15:40:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: that's what's causing the problems.
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2015-10-22T15:40:38Z Shinmera: uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh
2015-10-22T15:40:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, lets try the troubleshooting issues
2015-10-22T15:40:57Z Shinmera: If you try that one you'll probably run into an ASDF bug instead.
2015-10-22T15:41:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the quicklisp version is broken?
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2015-10-22T15:41:35Z Shinmera: The SBCL ASDF version has a bug that is triggered by the troubleshooting approach.
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2015-10-22T15:41:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the solution is to use CCL?
2015-10-22T15:42:01Z Shinmera: No
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2015-10-22T15:43:39Z Shinmera: The solution is to wait for me to fix this shit
2015-10-22T15:44:01Z Shinmera: I'm busy with other things right now, I'll see that I can look at it tonight though.
2015-10-22T15:44:09Z Shinmera: It's something to do with path discovery, I'm sure.
2015-10-22T15:44:15Z Shinmera: It's always the path discovery.
2015-10-22T15:44:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: ok, thanks.  If I just copy over the old standalone directy, will everythign work?
2015-10-22T15:44:44Z Shinmera: Ittt should. If I did things right.
2015-10-22T15:45:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, I'll try that
2015-10-22T15:45:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
2015-10-22T15:45:31Z Shinmera: Let me know if it works.
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2015-10-22T15:45:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok
2015-10-22T15:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It didn't, but I think it's because either a bunch of files were missing from the old directory or because my old version was before you were copying all the libraries over
2015-10-22T15:47:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: All the old directory contained was libcommonqt
2015-10-22T15:47:28Z Shinmera: Ah. Yeah.
2015-10-22T15:48:09Z Shinmera: You can download the asdf.lisp, load that, and then try the "Stop all the buildin'" approach.
2015-10-22T15:48:21Z Shinmera: That should circumvent the bug.
2015-10-22T15:48:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just ran cp -R /usr/local/lib/libsmoke* .
2015-10-22T15:48:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: And it seemed to work
2015-10-22T15:48:59Z Shinmera: That's not going to be enough.
2015-10-22T15:49:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seemed to find all the other Qt libraries
2015-10-22T15:49:26Z Shinmera: Hmm, ok.
2015-10-22T15:49:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem might be that smoke isn't in homebrew?
2015-10-22T15:49:40Z Shinmera: No, it should deal with that fine.
2015-10-22T15:50:04Z Shinmera: It's just a path issue again. The system I got is a complete mess and I keep on breaking it someplace else when I fix something.
2015-10-22T15:50:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: You should be able to install OSX in virtualbox
2015-10-22T15:50:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's really slow, but it might be helpful
2015-10-22T15:50:36Z Shinmera: I bought a macbook for development.
2015-10-22T15:50:50Z Shinmera: I tried virtualising it, it was unusably slow.
2015-10-22T15:50:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just meant, if you need a clean system
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2015-10-22T15:53:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I think this works, but I'm now getting a "No methods named "MAKE-QLINEEDIT" found." error from qtools. http://paste.lisp.org/+3DDD
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2015-10-22T15:53:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have to run.
2015-10-22T15:53:46Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: you have to load the required modules first: qtcore, qtgui
2015-10-22T15:53:52Z Shinmera: stick those into your system definition
2015-10-22T15:54:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, that might explain it :)
2015-10-22T15:54:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is one of those reasons I'm always hesitant to report bugs
2015-10-22T15:54:48Z Devon: Is there an easy way to get from the slime error handler or inspector into a fresh repl in the same swank without trashing the state I want to inspect?
2015-10-22T15:55:03Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Well even if it isn't a bug people will usually try to help you with your quandry.
2015-10-22T15:55:12Z Shinmera: *quandary
2015-10-22T15:55:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know, it's more of a pride thing
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2015-10-22T16:02:08Z Devon: I've tried typing the e key to get sldb-eval-in-frame/slime-inspector-eval but one false move and everything is destroyed.
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2015-10-22T18:01:07Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Which QL version do you have?
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2015-10-22T18:06:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the author of pgloader around? (dim, I think?)
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2015-10-22T18:06:19Z Shinmera: That's dim, yes
2015-10-22T18:06:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to figure out if it can import from a mssql backup
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2015-10-22T18:08:02Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: It looks to me like your qt-libs version is outdated. On latest sources, MAKE-SHARED-LIBRARY-FILES does not error when supplied a NIL value for the second argument.
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2015-10-22T18:08:26Z Shinmera: I don't remember how far behind QL is, but I can't imagine its latest to be that far back since I haven't touched qt-libs in a while.
2015-10-22T18:08:58Z Shinmera: There's still another bug (not detecting system provided libs) but it shouldn't error at least.
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2015-10-22T18:10:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: hmm, maybe I'll try using the git version.  It seems to be working though
2015-10-22T18:10:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: the ql directory is: quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150923-git/
2015-10-22T18:10:45Z Shinmera: Hrm, that is the latest QL indeed.
2015-10-22T18:11:56Z Shinmera: The last real change was on 2015.09.12, so I don't know how that trace you're getting can happen.
2015-10-22T18:12:25Z Shinmera: Oh wait, never mind
2015-10-22T18:12:27Z Shinmera: I'm dumb.
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2015-10-22T18:16:01Z Shinmera: I don't understand where :KEY NIL comes from. The method in question doesn't supply the :KEY argument.
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2015-10-22T18:21:30Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: It should properly detect the system-installed libraries again now. I still can't make sense of your backtrace though.
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2015-10-22T18:22:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, thanks, I guess my system's special :)
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2015-10-22T18:22:26Z Shinmera: It shouldn't be, but I don't know what's going on.
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2015-10-22T19:06:11Z ajf-: during a mapcar of list1, how might I get the i'th element of an external list (list2) ?
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2015-10-22T19:06:30Z ajf-: or maybe apply list2 over a mapcar of list1 if that makes sense
2015-10-22T19:06:34Z ajf-: ?
2015-10-22T19:06:58Z ajf-: i want to transform a list, but the transformation is not the same for each list, so it's a list of transformations
2015-10-22T19:07:14Z ajf-: *for each sublist in the list
2015-10-22T19:07:57Z shka: ajf-: may i ask what do you mean by "transformation"?
2015-10-22T19:08:22Z ajf-: shka it's the same function applied to all the sublists. but the argument varies. so I need to keep a list of arguments
2015-10-22T19:08:25Z ajf-: of the same size
2015-10-22T19:08:33Z shka: i see
2015-10-22T19:09:08Z shka: ajf-: are you aware that mapcar and friends accepts more than just one input list?
2015-10-22T19:09:21Z shka: perhaps you could use this method in the following manner
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2015-10-22T19:09:51Z shka: (mapcar #'transformation your-data-list your-arguments-list)
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2015-10-22T19:10:13Z shka: transformation would accept two arguments instead of one
2015-10-22T19:10:24Z shka: ajf-: does that help?
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2015-10-22T19:11:09Z shka: as a side note
2015-10-22T19:11:19Z shka: you may be overusing lists
2015-10-22T19:11:36Z shka: nested trees are sometimes cumbersome to use
2015-10-22T19:11:40Z shka: at least in my case
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2015-10-22T19:12:20Z ajf-: (mapcar (lambda (x,y) (+ x y)) '(1 1 1) '(1 2 3)) --> (2 3 4) ?
2015-10-22T19:12:23Z ajf-: like that ?
2015-10-22T19:12:46Z shka: yeah, more or less
2015-10-22T19:12:54Z shka: but that comma is really not required
2015-10-22T19:13:24Z shka: unless you want to mutate your list
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2015-10-22T19:13:41Z shka: this seems to be reasonable approach
2015-10-22T19:14:14Z ajf-: not really no
2015-10-22T19:14:19Z ajf-: I don't need to mutate it
2015-10-22T19:14:46Z jackdaniel: ajf-: you can do it even without lambda since #'+ function is already defined
2015-10-22T19:14:55Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #'+ '(1 1 1) '(1 2 3))
2015-10-22T19:15:14Z jackdaniel: what's more, #'+ takes indefinite number of arguments, so you may pass as many lists as you want
2015-10-22T19:15:47Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #+ '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) '(7 8 9)) will also work
2015-10-22T19:15:51Z shka: jackdaniel: good point, sir
2015-10-22T19:17:41Z shka: btw
2015-10-22T19:18:02Z shka: ajf-: from my expirence mutating list in lisp is a bad idea
2015-10-22T19:18:30Z shka: because more often than not you share cons cells between lists
2015-10-22T19:18:53Z shka: or rather it's content
2015-10-22T19:19:27Z jasom: more importantly, if you're not sharing structure, then you probably ought to be using a different data structure than a cons
2015-10-22T19:19:51Z jackdaniel: ↑
2015-10-22T19:20:22Z jackdaniel: well, linked lists has other cool features
2015-10-22T19:20:29Z jackdaniel: like cheap inserting in the midle
2015-10-22T19:20:33Z jackdaniel: middle°
2015-10-22T19:20:34Z shka: nope
2015-10-22T19:20:36Z ajf-: works great =)
2015-10-22T19:20:44Z shka: ajf-: cool :)
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2015-10-22T19:20:54Z shka: jackdaniel: the problem with inserting in the middle of the list
2015-10-22T19:20:57Z jasom: jackdaniel: only if you are keeping track of the position
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2015-10-22T19:21:02Z shka: is that you have to iterate to it
2015-10-22T19:21:09Z shka: and once you are there
2015-10-22T19:21:27Z jasom: you can insert at a cons you already have a referrence to, but not efficiently at the Nth element
2015-10-22T19:21:33Z shka: it may turn out that array will be faster copying stuff trough the virtue of prefetcher
2015-10-22T19:21:54Z jackdaniel: jasom: yeah, still useful :) but keeping the reminer is indeed important
2015-10-22T19:21:56Z jasom: a double-ended queue is also easier to implement with conses than vectors
2015-10-22T19:22:00Z pjb: ajf-: wanting to access the ith element of a list, in a loop such as mapcar, is a bad idea. It automatically makes the time complexity of your algorithm at least O(n^2), which is bad in general.
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2015-10-22T19:22:33Z shka: ajf-: pjb is right
2015-10-22T19:22:43Z shka: as i said, you may be overusing lists
2015-10-22T19:22:44Z ajf-: this is not for hard core computing though
2015-10-22T19:22:45Z pjb: ajf-: granted, it could be worse, but it's a hint: why do you want to access the ith element of a list? Use a vector instead! Or don't process the list with direct access to the ith, but instead from the front.
2015-10-22T19:22:47Z ajf-: just a small script
2015-10-22T19:22:51Z ajf-: vector ?
2015-10-22T19:22:57Z ajf-: : O
2015-10-22T19:22:58Z Shinmera: If you only have a certain number of elements it hardly matters.
2015-10-22T19:23:08Z shka: ajf-: i don't know what you are doing
2015-10-22T19:23:23Z jasom: All operations on my machine are O(1) since it can only represent a finite number of states :)
2015-10-22T19:23:31Z pjb: Exactly.
2015-10-22T19:23:50Z shka: ajf-: but it sounds a little bit like you may rethink it and just go with hash-table
2015-10-22T19:23:58Z shka: with objects
2015-10-22T19:24:02Z shka: or structures
2015-10-22T19:24:19Z jackdaniel: mapcar is fine for simple usage
2015-10-22T19:24:31Z shka: sure it is
2015-10-22T19:24:34Z ajf-: problem is those things are over my head
2015-10-22T19:24:35Z ajf-: now
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2015-10-22T19:24:45Z ajf-: so i need the technical debt
2015-10-22T19:24:53Z ajf-: because i won't get anything done if I go full perfectionist
2015-10-22T19:24:54Z shka: ajf-: that's sad
2015-10-22T19:25:03Z ajf-: though I'd love to learn what are vectors about
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2015-10-22T19:25:06Z ajf-: any readings ?
2015-10-22T19:25:15Z shka: ajf-: practical common lisp
2015-10-22T19:25:17Z jackdaniel: micro_: give ajf- pcl
2015-10-22T19:25:22Z shka: as always
2015-10-22T19:25:24Z ajf-: ah yes
2015-10-22T19:25:27Z ajf-: ok
2015-10-22T19:25:30Z jackdaniel: minion: give ajf- pcl
2015-10-22T19:25:30Z minion: ajf-: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-10-22T19:25:45Z jackdaniel: micro_: sorry, minion autocomplete failed, ignore last message
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2015-10-22T19:28:20Z shka: i like mapcar
2015-10-22T19:28:24Z ajf-: why would you say I should use a vector though ?
2015-10-22T19:28:55Z shka: ajf-: constant time to acces nth element
2015-10-22T19:29:08Z shka: less memory required
2015-10-22T19:29:34Z shka: linear aligment makes good use of prefetcher in main stay hardware
2015-10-22T19:29:47Z shka: faster allocation
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2015-10-22T19:35:28Z jasom: ajf-: since we still don't know what you're doing, we cant really recommend vectors though
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2015-10-22T19:36:19Z shka: i think that ajf- will be better of doing dirty hack for now
2015-10-22T19:36:27Z White__Flame: if you're just iterating over 2 lists, it probably doesn't matter much
2015-10-22T19:36:37Z shka: ajf-: once you will have a little bit of time, show your code
2015-10-22T19:36:38Z White__Flame: if you're doing random access of elements, a vector would be more idiomatic
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2015-10-22T19:37:57Z shka does not longer know what word "idiomatic" means
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2015-10-22T19:39:43Z ajf-: sorry
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2015-10-22T19:39:55Z ajf-: what i'm doing is this
2015-10-22T19:40:18Z pjb: shka: idiom = language
2015-10-22T19:40:28Z pjb: idiomatic = in the language.
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2015-10-22T19:41:25Z shka: pjb: i know, i was just sarcastic
2015-10-22T19:41:27Z ajf-: http://paste.lisp.org/display/157308
2015-10-22T19:41:34Z shka: because this is hardly idiomatic
2015-10-22T19:41:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: qt-libs works right away with git HEAD
2015-10-22T19:41:49Z shka: it is the same thing in every language
2015-10-22T19:42:02Z ajf-: so kh is a list of sequential items, 0k is kh transposed (horizontal lists become verticals), then lk is each of those mapped to a certain function
2015-10-22T19:42:50Z shka: ajf-: i think i should take a shower and go to sleep
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2015-10-22T19:44:02Z shka: ajf-: this is some musical software?
2015-10-22T19:44:05Z shka: Klangreihen?
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2015-10-22T19:45:10Z ajf-: yeah that gives you a list of lists of 4 items each
2015-10-22T19:45:15Z ajf-: then I transpose that
2015-10-22T19:45:19Z ajf-: it's a software yes opusmodus
2015-10-22T19:45:29Z shka: cool
2015-10-22T19:45:59Z shka: ajf-: on the long run, i think you should simply use array
2015-10-22T19:46:17Z shka: because you are doing basicly matrix operations
2015-10-22T19:46:33Z shka: you can even grab some library for this task
2015-10-22T19:46:43Z ajf-: ah and what benefits do i get from that? can I grab the nth row or nth column, etc.
2015-10-22T19:46:48Z ajf-: do I get any array goodies
2015-10-22T19:47:03Z ajf-: or do I have to import a math package of sorts
2015-10-22T19:47:12Z shka: well, array in lisp can have more than one dimmension
2015-10-22T19:47:34Z shka: (make-array '(4 4) ...) will give you array 4x4
2015-10-22T19:48:24Z shka: and use (aref array 2 2) to access to the specific cell
2015-10-22T19:48:40Z shka: ok, good night all
2015-10-22T19:48:41Z ajf-: ah nice. where are those docs? pcl again ?
2015-10-22T19:48:43Z ajf-: night
2015-10-22T19:48:53Z shka: ajf-: pcl is really, really good
2015-10-22T19:49:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: hmm, now I'm getting "Class not found: QCoreApplication"
2015-10-22T19:49:09Z ajf-: no, yeah i've realised
2015-10-22T19:49:34Z ajf-: just haven't found my "lisp reference" of search-and-go, to program with it side by side
2015-10-22T19:49:46Z shka: ajf-: unless you want to do something advance, you should find reasonable explanation in pcl
2015-10-22T19:49:48Z ajf-: sometimes I hit lispworks manuals, other times emacs manuals etc
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2015-10-22T19:50:51Z mordocai: ajf-: Old website design and kind've hard to use for noobies but this is a good ref http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Front/
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2015-10-22T19:51:01Z ajf-: great thanks
2015-10-22T19:51:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: Even when trying the qtools-helloworld example
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2015-10-22T19:51:56Z mordocai: ajf-: For instance, for arrays http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/c_arrays.htm
2015-10-22T19:53:26Z jasom: ajf-: http://xach.com/clhs will search the site mordocai posted
2015-10-22T19:53:43Z ajf-: ah great
2015-10-22T19:53:44Z hitecnologys: Is there any convention for defining mixin classes (in CL scenario, classes that only have methods specialized on them but no direct slots and, possibly, no superclasses)?
2015-10-22T19:53:54Z mordocai: jasom: Ooh nice, didn't know about that
2015-10-22T19:54:09Z hitecnologys: I mean naming convention.
2015-10-22T19:54:24Z jasom: hitecnologys: people do that a lot.  Sometimes they add a -mixin to the name
2015-10-22T19:54:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: hmm, I just wrote an ircbot to query specbot
2015-10-22T19:54:46Z jasom: hitecnologys: make the name descriptive of what it does
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2015-10-22T19:55:14Z hitecnologys: jasom: sounds fair enough. Does TRANSACTIONAL-CONTAINER-MIXIN sound good?
2015-10-22T19:55:42Z jasom: if it's a mixin that you can use to make a container transactional, then it sounds good to me :)
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2015-10-22T19:57:16Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: I know too little about your case to be able to tell what the problem is.
2015-10-22T19:57:37Z hitecnologys: jasom: sort of. It's used for mappings between STMX and my library. I add it to classes that need container-specific methods from STMX to work on them.
2015-10-22T19:58:12Z hitecnologys: jasom: this doesn't really allow you to make any class transactional, though. =P
2015-10-22T19:58:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: Yeah, i just deleted my quicklisp directory and am trying to start again
2015-10-22T19:58:21Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Make sure to delete your cache too.
2015-10-22T19:58:26Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2015-10-22T19:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok
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2015-10-22T20:02:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, same error
2015-10-22T20:02:22Z Shinmera: This is trying the examples?
2015-10-22T20:02:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2015-10-22T20:02:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: (asdf:load-system :qtools-helloworld) (qtools-helloworld:main)
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2015-10-22T20:04:13Z hitecnologys: jasom: alright, I think I've found a way to eliminate the need for mixins because they seem like an overkill in this case. Thank you for help anyway.
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2015-10-22T20:04:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: fiddlerw1aroof: Let me try the "too much building, method", that will download known-good libraries, right?
2015-10-22T20:05:22Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't remember if system-provided ones will override it.
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2015-10-22T20:06:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, I'm getting a bunch of "undefined alien" messages
2015-10-22T20:07:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: such as: 'STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "sw_smoke"'
2015-10-22T20:07:51Z Shinmera: That's normal.
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2015-10-22T20:08:09Z Shinmera: I can't reproduce your problem on my machine though, so yeah, trying the provided libraries might be worth a shot.
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2015-10-22T20:09:16Z Shinmera: If it doesn't work automated, you can download the archives manually. https://github.com/Shinmera/smokeqt/releases/tag/qt-libs1.1.0 https://github.com/Shinmera/smokegen/releases/tag/qt-libs1.1.0 https://github.com/Shinmera/libcommonqt/releases/tag/qt-libs1.1.0 https://github.com/Shinmera/qt4/releases/tag/qt-libs1.1.0
2015-10-22T20:10:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, thanks
2015-10-22T20:10:44Z Shinmera: Sorry that you're having all this trouble!
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2015-10-22T20:11:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if the upgrade to 10.11 did something . . .
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2015-10-22T20:11:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's the only major change I can think of
2015-10-22T20:12:22Z Shinmera: I haven't tested it on 10.11 and won't for a while either, so I can't say for sure.
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2015-10-22T20:19:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ugh, I got to go, but something odd's going on with my setup
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2015-10-22T20:19:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I might have to completely nuke Qt and start over
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2015-10-22T20:20:32Z Shinmera: I'm sadly rather scarce on time these days, otherwise I'd investigate this.
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2015-10-22T20:21:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, well hopefully I can figure it out on my own :) I remember having a similar problem a while ago, so I know it's possible :)
2015-10-22T20:21:50Z Shinmera: Let me know if you do.
2015-10-22T20:22:03Z clop: is there a way to get more stack space on sbcl?
2015-10-22T20:22:21Z Bicyclidine: --dynamic-space-size, i think
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2015-10-22T20:22:29Z Bicyclidine: er, --control-stack-size
2015-10-22T20:23:22Z clop: oh thanks, sorry i should have looked for command-line options
2015-10-22T20:23:39Z Bicyclidine: no worries
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2015-10-22T20:38:15Z ajf-: how may i form an array of zeros?
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2015-10-22T20:41:20Z pjb: ajf-: (make-array 42 :initial-element 0)
2015-10-22T20:41:36Z pjb: clhs make-array
2015-10-22T20:41:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2015-10-22T20:41:38Z ajf-: nice thanks
2015-10-22T20:41:41Z pjb: clhs vector
2015-10-22T20:41:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm
2015-10-22T20:41:47Z pjb: (vector 0 0 0)
2015-10-22T20:43:07Z ajf-: clhs append
2015-10-22T20:43:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2015-10-22T20:43:18Z ajf-: does it mutate ?
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2015-10-22T20:43:25Z ajf-: the list
2015-10-22T20:43:30Z pjb: not.
2015-10-22T20:43:35Z ajf-: returns a new list, not.
2015-10-22T20:43:36Z ajf-: thanks
2015-10-22T20:43:47Z pjb: But the last list is not copied, so you may obtain a list that is partially immutable.
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2015-10-22T20:44:24Z pjb: (let* ((tail (list 1 2 3)) (whole (append '(5 6 7) tail))) (setf (elt tail 0) 0) whole) #| --> (5 6 7 0 2 3) |#
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2015-10-22T20:45:18Z pjb: So, no, it doesn't return a fresh list, or a new list in general: (let ((list '(1 2))) (eq list  (append list))) #| --> t |#
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2015-10-22T20:45:40Z loadsdow`: can I use a dynamic variable across packages? I tried (declare (special myvar)) but it doesn't seem to be visible on another package's function
2015-10-22T20:45:51Z pjb: You may use concatenate 'list to append lists ensuring a fresh list.
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2015-10-22T20:47:55Z pjb: loadsdow`: you can. (defpackage "P1" (:export "*VAR*")) (defvar p1:*var* 42) (defpackage "P2" (:use "CL")) (in-package "P2") p1:*var*  --> 42
2015-10-22T20:48:10Z pjb: loadsdow`: notice how variables and packages are orthogonal.
2015-10-22T20:48:37Z pjb: (defpackage "P1" (:export "*VAR*")) (defpackage "P2" (:use "CL"))  (in-package "CL-USER")   (defvar p1:*var* 42)  p1:*var* --> 42
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2015-10-22T20:53:38Z loadsdow`: I guess my question is really about using dynamic variables that can shadow a previous value of that variable.
2015-10-22T20:53:57Z loadsdow`: But I'll see if I can get a small example to work
2015-10-22T20:54:11Z Bicyclidine: if you provide some example code it might help, cos as pjb said your original question doesn't make sense.
2015-10-22T20:55:22Z pjb: loadsdow`: You can shadow any dynamic variable with a dynamic binding. (let ((p1:*var* 33)) (print p1:*var*)) #|
2015-10-22T20:55:22Z pjb: 33  --> 33 |#
2015-10-22T20:55:58Z pjb: (list  (let ((p1:*var* 33)) p1:*var*) p1:*var*) #| --> (33 42) |#
2015-10-22T20:57:35Z ajf-: how may I insert a list of values to the nth position of an array
2015-10-22T20:57:41Z ajf-: or a vector if you will
2015-10-22T20:57:42Z loadsdow`: I think I tried something like that but wasn't working (the let binding wasn't shadowing across function calls) , but let me get a small example first
2015-10-22T20:57:45Z ajf-: in e.g. 1,5
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2015-10-22T20:59:17Z pjb: ajf-: you can use replace-subseq
2015-10-22T21:00:05Z pjb: (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) (replace-subseq (vector -1 -2 -3) v 1 2)) #| --> #(1 -1 -2 -3 3) |#
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2015-10-22T21:01:47Z pjb: works with lists too of course: (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) (replace-subseq (list -1 -2 -3) v 1 2)) #| --> #(1 -1 -2 -3 3) |#
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2015-10-22T21:02:23Z pjb: loadsdow`: (eq 'p1::x 'p2::x) #| --> nil |#
2015-10-22T21:02:53Z pjb: loadsdow`: http://weitz.de/packages.html
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2015-10-22T21:03:36Z pjb: loadsdow`:  I mean http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
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2015-10-22T21:04:37Z ajf-: what's a function that always returns -1
2015-10-22T21:04:42Z ajf-: or (-1) rather
2015-10-22T21:04:45Z ajf-: '(-1)
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2015-10-22T21:04:58Z pjb: (funcall  (constantly -1))
2015-10-22T21:05:01Z pjb: (funcall  (constantly -1)) #| --> -1 |#
2015-10-22T21:05:17Z pjb: (funcall  (constantly '(-1))) #| --> (-1) |#
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2015-10-22T21:18:06Z loadsdow`: @pjb you're right, I must have some other bug then
2015-10-22T21:23:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: at least linux is still happy :)
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2015-10-22T21:24:28Z tsoutseki: hello.. does anyone know a girl that used to come here with the nick MutSbeta?
2015-10-22T21:25:38Z Devon: pjb: (stepper:step #) behaves as if it expands to (progn (format ... '#) (eval #)) is there a way to make it step?
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2015-10-22T21:30:19Z pjb: Devon: you need to compile your code with the cl-stepper package instead of the cl package.
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2015-10-22T21:30:39Z pjb: Calling cl-stepper:step on code compiled with cl will just run over it.
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2015-10-22T21:33:02Z Devon: pjb: So (stepper:step (prog1 (progn 1) (progn 2))) compiles the prog1 form with cl?
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2015-10-22T21:33:12Z pjb: tsoutseki: This nick doesn't ring any bell.  Also, we don't go as Mr.pjb or Ms.tux
2015-10-22T21:33:29Z pjb: Devon: if it's cl:prog1 yes.
2015-10-22T21:33:48Z tsoutseki: pjb, uh? mrpjb?
2015-10-22T21:33:53Z pjb: You could do (cl-stepper:step (cl-stepper:prog1 (cl-stepper:progn 1) (cl-stepper:progn 2)))
2015-10-22T21:34:07Z pjb: tsoutseki: meaning that on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
2015-10-22T21:34:10Z pjb: or a girl.
2015-10-22T21:34:18Z pjb: or a bot.
2015-10-22T21:34:49Z tsoutseki: pjb, ok..
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2015-10-22T21:38:25Z Devon: pjb: Ah, the mystery is revealed ...	(in-package "STEPPER") ...	STEPPER> (step (prog1 (progn 1) (progn 2))) ... works as expected.
2015-10-22T21:39:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: tsoutseki: as far as I can tell, MutSbeta only said two things in this channel: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp?q=MutSbeta
2015-10-22T21:40:54Z tsoutseki: fiddlerwoaroof, yes. thanks :/
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2015-10-22T22:07:47Z loadsdow`: actually. my problem is that the shadowing doesn't seem to be visible across a closure
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2015-10-22T22:08:01Z loadsdow`: I just get "Unboud variable *var*"
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2015-10-22T22:08:14Z loadsdow`: I've even declared the variable as special in the closure
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2015-10-22T22:09:11Z pjb: loadsdow`: did you notice that I wrote p1:*var*?
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2015-10-22T22:12:40Z loadsdow`: yeah, I am doing that too
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2015-10-22T22:13:44Z loadsdow`: is there a way to print the "source code" of a closure object?
2015-10-22T22:13:55Z pjb: Now, of course, once the symbol is exported from the package p1, you can use this package p1 in the package p2, so that the exported symbol is visible in the package p2 without having to qualify it.
2015-10-22T22:14:23Z pjb: (defpackage "P2" (:use "CL" "P1")) (in-package "P2") *var* --> 42
2015-10-22T22:14:54Z pjb: loadsdow`: you may try (function-lambda-expression closure) but in general no.
2015-10-22T22:19:32Z loadsdow`: could symbol-macrolet have to do with this?
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2015-10-22T22:20:28Z pjb: if you defined a symbol-macrolet named with the same symbol, that could interfer, yes.
2015-10-22T22:21:36Z pjb switches to S4.
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2015-10-22T22:41:43Z quad: What is the best way to perform an action (like doing some weird or non-ASDF-standard loading) before compiling/loading an ASDF system?
2015-10-22T22:42:17Z quad: I tried writing a before method EQL-specialized on load-op and EQL-specialized on the system, to no avail.
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2015-10-22T23:05:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it possible to add a superclass to a condition at runtime?
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2015-10-22T23:05:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs handler-case
2015-10-22T23:05:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm
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2015-10-22T23:13:00Z pillton: I don't think so.
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2015-10-22T23:14:32Z pillton: clhs 9.1.1
2015-10-22T23:14:32Z specbot: Condition Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aa.htm
2015-10-22T23:14:41Z pillton: "The metaclass of the class condition is not specified."
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2015-10-22T23:15:31Z pillton: So even if your implementation supports the meta-object protocol it is not guaranteed that you can modify a condition class.
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2015-10-22T23:28:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm
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2015-10-22T23:32:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I can get the effect I want with a OR type specifier
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