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2015-06-17T00:47:36Z pjb: drmeister: if (declaim (optimize (space 0))) then it would be good to keep the source in the fasl, to be able to return a meaningful result from function-lambda-expression.   On the other hand if  (declaim (optimize (space 3))), then you may indeed try to avoid saving it.
2015-06-17T00:51:03Z nyef: Or even make it conditional on (> space debug).
2015-06-17T00:51:26Z pjb: Well, I don't see function-lambda-expression as a debugging facility. More like a documentation thing.
2015-06-17T00:51:36Z pjb: Also space can be used to filter docstrings.
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2015-06-17T00:53:39Z spacebat`: #lisp: favourite pattern matching utility?
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2015-06-17T00:56:34Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.pmatch of course.
2015-06-17T00:56:45Z pjb: Faré prefers fare-matcher.
2015-06-17T00:56:57Z pjb: taoufik prefers his matcher.
2015-06-17T00:57:12Z pjb: Edi prefers cl-ppcre.
2015-06-17T00:57:54Z pjb: spacebat`: It's possible that fare-matcher is better than cesarum.pmatch; he's a better programmer than myself.
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2015-06-17T01:02:35Z spacebat`: :)
2015-06-17T01:03:24Z spacebat`: I need something with a liberal license too, but I just wanted an opinion to help narrow the search
2015-06-17T01:03:39Z zacts: spacebat`: I wish I had your nick
2015-06-17T01:03:45Z zacts: it's cool
2015-06-17T01:03:48Z nyef: Ugh. This insufficiently-accursed spec. Mentions in the description for abstract class AREA that a constructor for any subclass may return +NOWHERE+ if it is handed parameters for an region that has no area. But doesn't mention it in the description of any of the region constructors!
2015-06-17T01:03:57Z zacts: I now want to get a t-shirt of a bat wearing a space helmet
2015-06-17T01:04:17Z zacts: (as long as the t-shirt is all fair trade and environmentally friendlier of course)
2015-06-17T01:05:19Z spacebat`: its from Ted Hughes' The Iron Man, there's a SpaceBatAngelDragon
2015-06-17T01:06:38Z zacts: oui
2015-06-17T01:06:41Z zacts: c'est bon
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2015-06-17T01:09:44Z spacebat`: fare recommends optima
2015-06-17T01:10:05Z spacebat`: but its llgpl :)
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2015-06-17T01:11:29Z pjb: zacts: try: spacepteropus
2015-06-17T01:12:00Z zacts: there is this emacs starter kit for vimmers called spacemacs
2015-06-17T01:12:06Z zacts: I tried it once, it was cool
2015-06-17T01:12:08Z zacts: but
2015-06-17T01:12:18Z zacts: eventually it becomes limiting, as it departs from default emacs quite a lot
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2015-06-17T01:12:30Z pjb: or spacechiroptera
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2015-06-17T02:01:56Z drmeister: pjb: You raise an excellent point.  But wouldn't it be better to just store the lambda-list, closure-p and name?
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2015-06-17T02:05:49Z Bike: function-lambda-expression returns a valid lambda or nuthin, just a lambda list ain't enough
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2015-06-17T03:05:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-17T03:06:50Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-17T03:17:02Z drmeister: If I write an ASDF system :cleavir-clasp and I use (require :cleavir-clasp) to load it (this works) - where do I put the (provide :cleavir-clasp) to keep it from loading more than once?
2015-06-17T03:17:22Z drmeister: What's the commonly accepted place to put it?
2015-06-17T03:17:55Z drmeister: Hi beach!
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2015-06-17T03:19:48Z beach: drmeister: ASDF takes care of that as I recall.
2015-06-17T03:20:44Z drmeister: Hmm, it doesn't appear to in my case.  I (require :clasp-cleavir), it loads and then *modules* --> no "CLASP-CLEAVIR" "clasp-cleavir"
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2015-06-17T03:21:14Z beach: Right, it calls ASDF again and ASDF realizes it is already loaded.
2015-06-17T03:21:35Z beach: Again, from memory.
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2015-06-17T03:22:31Z drmeister: Hmm, for this system it tries to load it again and it crashes - I don't know why.
2015-06-17T03:22:41Z drmeister: Maybe it's a problem with inlining.
2015-06-17T03:23:06Z drmeister: I'll try loading it twice in a row myself.  Currently it's being loaded from another file.
2015-06-17T03:24:15Z beach: What do you mean by "the system being loaded"?
2015-06-17T03:24:20Z beach: The ASDF file?
2015-06-17T03:24:29Z drmeister: I've just been through a day of painfully slow debugging of bootstrapping problems involving bringing up Cleavir with inlining.
2015-06-17T03:24:58Z drmeister: Yes, the ASDF system.  I'm loading it using (require :clasp-cleavir)  - it loads "clasp-cleavir.asd"
2015-06-17T03:25:37Z beach: Who cares?
2015-06-17T03:25:50Z drmeister: I do, it crashes the second time.
2015-06-17T03:25:59Z beach: Then there is a bug.
2015-06-17T03:26:04Z drmeister: Yeah.
2015-06-17T03:26:24Z beach: But the solution to that problem is not to prevent it from being loaded a second time.
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2015-06-17T03:26:30Z beach: The solution is to find the bug.
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2015-06-17T03:28:45Z drmeister: After finding about 20 bugs today and getting tired and wanting to try and launch a multi-hour compile before I fall asleep I thought I could leave one bug for tomorrow. You know.  Otherwise what would I do with my time?
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2015-06-17T03:29:04Z beach: I see.
2015-06-17T03:29:15Z beach: Don't call require then.
2015-06-17T03:29:21Z beach: Call ASDF instead.
2015-06-17T03:29:23Z drmeister: Right.  I don't walk away from bugs.
2015-06-17T03:29:57Z drmeister: At first I thought it was because the module wasn't being PROVIDE'd. But now I see that that is not the problem.
2015-06-17T03:30:26Z drmeister: system, not module, system. Modules are what python has.
2015-06-17T03:30:34Z beach: My guess would be that if you PROVIDE it and then change some source, it won't be recompiled.
2015-06-17T03:31:09Z beach: Just guessing of course.
2015-06-17T03:31:12Z drmeister: Yes, I was concerned about that.
2015-06-17T03:31:51Z drmeister: Are you still working on the little laptop?
2015-06-17T03:31:58Z beach: Yes.
2015-06-17T03:32:04Z beach: A few more days.
2015-06-17T03:32:45Z drmeister: Off the top of your head, what else should I inline?   CONSP,CAR,CDR,RPLACA,RPLACD currently.
2015-06-17T03:34:10Z drmeister: I have  eq-instruction generating efficient code but I haven't inlined EQ yet.
2015-06-17T03:35:16Z beach: EQ is good.
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2015-06-17T03:37:34Z beach: If you think there is a problem with inlining, you probably should not inline more things until you find this problem or decide the problem is elsewhere.
2015-06-17T03:37:51Z drmeister: Jumping to another topic: what does the source code tracking API look like at this point?
2015-06-17T03:38:07Z drmeister: Debugging cclasp at this point is like reading tea leaves.
2015-06-17T03:38:36Z nyef: Mmm... tea...
2015-06-17T03:40:23Z beach: drmeister: Can I perhaps as you to look in the file source-tracking.lisp?
2015-06-17T03:40:45Z drmeister: Whoah. There's a source-tracking.lisp file - I'm there.
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2015-06-17T03:49:01Z drmeister: Cool.  Ok, so for (defgeneric begin-source (source-info expression)), source-info is the form that I passed to generate-ast and expression is a sub-form and begin-source returns the source position of the sub-form or nil?
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2015-06-17T03:51:10Z drmeister: That's just summarizing what I think I read several times.
2015-06-17T03:51:35Z drmeister: Then the question is: "How do I get the source info for a MIR instruction"?
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2015-06-17T03:52:50Z beach: drmeister: source-info is not a form.
2015-06-17T03:53:23Z beach: drmeister: Currently generate-ast doesn't take a source-info object as an argument, because I haven't added that yet.
2015-06-17T03:54:02Z beach: The reason I haven't added it yet, is that last time I changed the signature of some function, it created problems for you for months.
2015-06-17T03:54:12Z beach: So I am being more cautious this time.
2015-06-17T03:54:15Z drmeister: Ah, I assumed it was what I currently pass generate-ast.
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2015-06-17T03:54:44Z beach: As the comment explains, it is an object that the implementation decides upon and that is used for dispatch.
2015-06-17T03:55:24Z drmeister: I appreciate your thoughtfulness, I can handle generate-ast changing it's signature. For better debugging I would happily suffer quite a bit.
2015-06-17T03:56:21Z drmeister: Once I had it fixed in my mind that it was the form it stuck.
2015-06-17T03:57:02Z drmeister: Reading again...
2015-06-17T03:57:22Z beach: You wouldn't be able to write a method specialized to a form.
2015-06-17T03:57:27Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-06-17T03:57:56Z drmeister: I glossed over that.
2015-06-17T03:59:07Z drmeister: Are the types of SOURCE-INFO and the return value of BEGIN-SOURCE the same?
2015-06-17T04:00:42Z beach: Typically not.
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2015-06-17T04:01:00Z drmeister: What does SOURCE-INFO represent?  Is it just used for dispatching?
2015-06-17T04:01:02Z beach: But Cleavir doesn't care what you return from BEGIN-SOURCE.
2015-06-17T04:01:28Z beach: drmeister: you can use it to hold things like information about the file, and whatnot.
2015-06-17T04:02:01Z beach: That way, you don't have to remember what file you are compiling.
2015-06-17T04:02:32Z beach: You can store your hash table in it that maps forms to source information.
2015-06-17T04:02:59Z drmeister: I see.  So I set this SOURCE-INFO thing up, pass it to generate-ast and then Cleavir calls BEGIN-SOURCE passing this SOURCE-INFO into it along with sub-expressions and BEGIN-SOURCE returns objects that Cleavir sees as opaque but they identify source info about the sub-expression.
2015-06-17T04:03:40Z beach: Sounds right.
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2015-06-17T04:04:10Z drmeister: What about the other end, when translating the MIR instructions, can I get the source info for each MIR instruction?
2015-06-17T04:04:40Z beach: Ultimately, this information will be passed from AST to HIR to MIR.
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2015-06-17T04:07:28Z drmeister: Well, if you have the time to implement more or all of this I would greatly appreciate it.  I have the source location available already from my reader and weak-key hash tables.
2015-06-17T04:07:58Z drmeister: I'm feeling a strong sense of deja vu. If I've said this already I apologize.
2015-06-17T04:08:24Z beach: Personally, I think if you introduce new code in several different parts of the system at the same time, you will have a much harder time debugging problems that pop up.
2015-06-17T04:09:20Z beach: So my suggestion would be that if you want source tracking, you should turn off inlining for now, especially if you think that there is a problem with inlining as you said before.
2015-06-17T04:09:21Z drmeister: Is that a general observation or are you pointing out something about my coding style (which is ok).
2015-06-17T04:09:55Z beach: I am not commenting on your code.
2015-06-17T04:10:06Z drmeister: Turn off inlining - yes, I can do that easily.
2015-06-17T04:10:32Z drmeister: I didn't mean that in any backhanded way. I've been all over the place in the past couple of weeks.
2015-06-17T04:10:56Z nyef: drmeister: Literally as well as figuratively?
2015-06-17T04:11:03Z beach: I am commenting on how you add several new "modules" to your system, which is still not fully tested, and then, when a problem shows up, you don't have a very good idea of where it is, like the bug in method combination, for instance.
2015-06-17T04:11:20Z rtoym: Is it legal for the style-warning condition to have a different class precedence list?  I was wondering if I could add a new class to the precedence list.
2015-06-17T04:11:37Z brucem: drmeister, beach: "slow and steady wins the race"
2015-06-17T04:12:32Z beach: drmeister: You can do what you want of course, but it is hard for me to debug a "problem with Cleavir" that turns out to be a problem with method combination in Clasp.
2015-06-17T04:12:54Z rtoym: I want to create a new condition style-warning-reference which is a style-warning.
2015-06-17T04:13:37Z beach: I think you can add new classes to the precedence list of pretty much any class.
2015-06-17T04:14:02Z beach: rtoym: ... as long as you don't break the relative order of what is specified.
2015-06-17T04:14:55Z nyef: rtoym: That's what I'm remembering as well. Trying to find chapter and verse now.
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2015-06-17T04:16:06Z drmeister: I recorded the source tracking conversation in Evernote.  I'll refer to that in the future.
2015-06-17T04:17:00Z beach: drmeister: I just download all the logs to my computer.  Then I can use my usual tools on it, like grep, etc.
2015-06-17T04:17:44Z drmeister: beach: There is so much in the logs, but yes, good idea.
2015-06-17T04:18:18Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, several megabytes as I recall.  Perhaps even a gigabyte or so.
2015-06-17T04:18:47Z nyef: clhs condition
2015-06-17T04:18:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_cnd.htm
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2015-06-17T04:19:01Z beach: drmeister: Didn't make a dent in the disk space available on this dinky laptop.
2015-06-17T04:19:16Z nyef: Says that an implementation may define new subtypes of any defined condition class.
2015-06-17T04:20:13Z drmeister: General question: Is there any way to trace what files ASDF is loading as it loads them?
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2015-06-17T04:21:27Z nyef: I would argue that an instance of any implementation-specific subclass of some condition class specified to be used in a given situation is legit, because it is also (indirectly) an instance of the superclass in question.
2015-06-17T04:22:36Z Bike: well i mean of course you can throw in classes. like, hash-table's listed cpl is hash-table, t. there's gonna be stuff in the middle.
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2015-06-17T04:31:21Z drmeister: Hmm, when I turn off inlining I can load the :clasp-cleavir ASDF system six times, no problem.
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2015-06-17T05:09:21Z Devon: ;;; Seems to me, given, e.g., (defmacro bar ... (declare (indent baz)) ...)
2015-06-17T05:09:21Z Devon: ;;; slime should tell emacs to (put 'bar 'common-lisp-indent-function 'baz)
2015-06-17T05:09:21Z Devon: ;;; has this been done already?
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2015-06-17T05:10:42Z nyef: Note that you'd need to arrange for INDENT to be declaimed as a declaration.
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2015-06-17T05:11:25Z Bike: i think zwei or something had declarations like that
2015-06-17T05:12:05Z nyef: Almost certainly, but that would be in the context of Lisp Machine Lisp.
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2015-06-17T05:18:46Z Devon: I've used Local Variables but that's awkward.
2015-06-17T05:20:30Z Devon: Surely someone already has some find-file-hook to do this.
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2015-06-17T08:24:42Z Shinmera: drmeister: You can use (asdf/plan:plan-actions (asdf:make-plan 'asdf/plan:sequential-plan :load-op :system))
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2015-06-17T08:26:11Z Shinmera: drmeister: However, from my experience ASDF may not perform certain actions. Why/how that happens I'm not entirely sure about. The performing of certain actions may also invoke further ASDF operations, meaning further plans are generated and traversed.
2015-06-17T08:28:28Z Shinmera: drmeister: Otherwise, just a simple (trace cl:load) should work.
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2015-06-17T08:43:33Z loz: greetings
2015-06-17T08:44:27Z loz: is there any kind of lisp suitable for embedded? like 192k ram microcontrollers
2015-06-17T08:45:11Z H4ns: loz: not common lisp.  try #scheme or picolisp or something like that.  chicken scheme is pretty small and embeddable friendly.
2015-06-17T08:46:12Z loz: H4ns: not cl, but i think people here have used wide range of lisps
2015-06-17T08:46:33Z loz: one i found is maru, but its repl is around 400k
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2015-06-17T08:50:23Z jackdaniel: I'd say best shot would be scheme
2015-06-17T08:50:55Z jackdaniel: http://microscheme.org/
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2015-06-17T09:03:14Z p_l: loz: there's also the approach of writing a compiler in CL and generating code this way
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2015-06-17T09:04:09Z p_l: harkens back to JPL embedded work back when 192k ram would be huge, and Symbolics Lisp Machines' microcode (generated by "LIL" language, written in Lisp)
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2015-06-17T09:37:05Z loke_: Has anyone seen any problems with CFFI after the most recent QL update?
2015-06-17T09:37:43Z loke_: I'm doing a simple function call and now getting "The value 0 is not of type SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER"
2015-06-17T09:38:17Z loke_: It's inside the thing defined by defcfun
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2015-06-17T10:12:01Z p_l: actually, wouldn't something like "LIL" allow for completely C-less SBCL (or other impl) images?
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2015-06-17T10:25:27Z loz: p_l this lil? https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library
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2015-06-17T10:57:29Z aerique: I can't recall and can't find in my older code what to do to get SBCL to report optimizations notes.
2015-06-17T10:58:28Z aerique: ah nevermind
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2015-06-17T10:58:55Z aerique: Found the answer and my own question on reddit :-|
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2015-06-17T11:16:05Z Cymew: Optimizations notes?
2015-06-17T11:16:05Z minion: Cymew, memo from pjb: you need to read the giants: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html
2015-06-17T11:16:05Z minion: Cymew, memo from pjb: You can always do: (defpackage "CYMEW-LISP" (:use "CL") (:shadow "AREF") (:export "CAR" … "AREF")) (defun cymew-lisp:aref (a &rest indices) (apply (function cl:aref) (mapcar (function 1-) indices))) (defun (setf cymew-lisp:aref) …) (defpackage "CYMEW-LISP-USER (:use "CYMEW-LISP")) (in-package "CYMEW-LISP-USER")
2015-06-17T11:16:38Z p_l: loz: no, LIL from Symbolics, which was a small "pascal semantics with lisp syntax and style" programming language, used to write microcode for Ivory
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2015-06-17T11:17:42Z loz: p_l: google gives me "Illuminati and Satanic Symbolism in Lil Wayne ft Big Sean" for lil from symbolics :D
2015-06-17T11:18:06Z p_l: welcome to the internet, we got loonies
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2015-06-17T11:37:42Z emaczen: I need some help with the CCL cocoa-bridge. I'm following the currency-converter tutorial, and without using IB you need to create the connections between the gui-elements and the controller class.
2015-06-17T11:37:57Z emaczen: I need help creating this connections from code
2015-06-17T11:39:09Z loz: guys, how do i merge my fixes to upstream for 2012-year cl library?
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2015-06-17T11:49:17Z mood: loz: That depends entirely on the library author's way of handling that. If it's on GitHub you'll normally open a pull request
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2015-06-17T11:49:57Z loz: mood: nope, its not on github
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2015-06-17T11:53:45Z loz: btw there is a design question, we have nice http client drakma, that tries to determine stream type according its content-type
2015-06-17T11:54:10Z loz: but inside it has only (defvar *text-content-types* '(("text" . nil))
2015-06-17T11:54:57Z loz: should a library add content-types it uses to this list?
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2015-06-17T11:56:06Z loz: or should drakma contain predefined lisp for popular formats?
2015-06-17T11:56:51Z mood: loz: You could also locally bind *text-content-types* to include whatever you need it to
2015-06-17T11:57:46Z loz: why would i want to bind it locally, instead of just add content types? they are unique and does not affect each other
2015-06-17T11:58:50Z mood: Because adding a content type could, potentially, break other code that depends on a byte vector result
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2015-06-17T12:00:28Z loz: oh damn, ye, it can break other code
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2015-06-17T12:02:02Z drmeister: Shinmera: Thank you.  (trace cl:load) - that's so simple.
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2015-06-17T12:28:53Z Shinmera: Finally, success! https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/611146291452739584
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2015-06-17T12:44:09Z drmeister: Shinmera: Great job!
2015-06-17T12:44:55Z Shinmera: drmeister: Did you figure out the issue with having to dump the AST?
2015-06-17T12:46:10Z drmeister: Shinmera: Yes - it turned out that I didn't need to dump the AST. I had misunderstood how ECL injected code into the FASL to set up inlining.
2015-06-17T12:47:45Z drmeister: Shinmera: Once you have an OpenGL context (if that is what do you call it) with Qtools can you do any kind of OpenGL programming for rendering within it?
2015-06-17T12:49:28Z nyef: Shinmera: Congratulations! Looking forward to being able to try that myself at some point.
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2015-06-17T12:50:23Z Shinmera: drmeister: Yes.
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2015-06-17T12:50:50Z Shinmera: drmeister: That particular example just uses cl-opengl to draw the square https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/examples/opengl/opengl.lisp#L43
2015-06-17T12:51:25Z drmeister: Nice - I'll take a look at that.
2015-06-17T12:52:10Z Shinmera: The QPainter class is very nice, it lets you switch between Qt painting calls and direct OpenGL calls as you please.
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2015-06-17T12:53:20Z Shinmera: There's also the possibility to use QGLFrameBuffer to draw with OpenGL offscreen.
2015-06-17T12:53:41Z Shinmera: Or QPainter, that is.
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2015-06-17T12:55:18Z p_l: I don't think you can get far with mixing if you used OpenGL the way I want to use it (too many 3d programming presentations read recently... xD)
2015-06-17T12:55:29Z p_l: I wonder if there's still the old "paint on overlay" support in QT
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2015-06-17T13:20:22Z kami: Good afternoon.
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2015-06-17T13:26:30Z Baggers: Shinmera: Great job!
2015-06-17T13:28:57Z Baggers: Shinmera: this recent post on /r/lisp can help with main thread issues with ccl http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/38wedz/osx_clozurecl_slime_emacs_lispbuildersdl_clopengl/
2015-06-17T13:29:48Z Baggers: Shinmera: So far on OSX with sbcl i'm hacking it with swank in communication :style nil. But that is extremely unsatisfactory
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2015-06-17T13:30:45Z Shinmera: I was thinking something similar as what the OP is describing.
2015-06-17T13:31:05Z Shinmera: Right now I need to concentrate on my lunch though, I'll research more closely later.
2015-06-17T13:31:25Z Baggers: hehe that definitely takes priority
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2015-06-17T13:42:28Z ynix: Hey, is anyone using Linedit with SBCL on Windows?
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2015-06-17T13:42:44Z oleo: nope
2015-06-17T13:42:50Z oleo: i used it once on linux
2015-06-17T13:42:54Z oleo: was ok
2015-06-17T13:43:23Z ynix: Yeah I've got it working on OSX and Linux, but the install fails on Windows.
2015-06-17T13:44:27Z nyef: Isn't Linedit some ncurses thing?
2015-06-17T13:45:08Z oleo: but i'm better off with sb-aclrepl....
2015-06-17T13:45:28Z oleo: and some custom prompt.....
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2015-06-17T13:45:38Z oleo: and rlwrap
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2015-06-17T13:52:44Z nyef: rlwrap is a poor substitute for good command-line UI, but it's largely workable.
2015-06-17T13:53:00Z nyef: The main thing that I miss with it is tab-completion.
2015-06-17T13:53:20Z oleo: i have tab-completion
2015-06-17T13:53:32Z nyef: Ooh. How?
2015-06-17T13:54:08Z oleo: you have to generate all the symbols for the completion to work
2015-06-17T13:54:20Z nyef: Oh. Eesh.
2015-06-17T13:54:26Z oleo: i got it from someone who did it in abcl
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2015-06-17T13:54:42Z oleo: can give you my script if you want
2015-06-17T13:55:04Z oleo: exec rlwrap -b "[]()'\" " --remember -c -f /home/oleo/.sbcl_completions -H /home/oleo/.sbcl_history -s 65535 $SBCL
2015-06-17T13:55:20Z oleo: so that's how the script uses the completions file
2015-06-17T13:55:22Z nyef: Ah, thanks.
2015-06-17T13:55:34Z oleo: and to generate the completions wait i'll just paste
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2015-06-17T13:57:03Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150000
2015-06-17T13:57:50Z oleo: but i think you have to regenerate the file from time to time.....
2015-06-17T13:57:55Z oleo: when you use new libs....
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2015-06-17T13:58:06Z oleo: where the symbols were not already in that file....
2015-06-17T13:58:15Z oleo: s/were/are/
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2015-06-17T13:58:34Z nyef: Nice paste number. (-:
2015-06-17T13:58:50Z oleo: ah, didn't even notice :)
2015-06-17T13:58:52Z nyef: Umm...
2015-06-17T13:58:53Z oleo: hahaha
2015-06-17T13:58:56Z nyef: clhs user-homedir-pathname
2015-06-17T13:58:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_user_h.htm
2015-06-17T13:59:06Z nyef: Because screw using GETENV.
2015-06-17T13:59:51Z oleo: ok
2015-06-17T13:59:52Z oleo: lol
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2015-06-17T14:57:05Z tokenrove: linedit uses termcap; it doesn't go through ncurses.  I don't think it will work under Windows except perhaps in Cygwin.
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2015-06-17T15:16:09Z p_l: it would have to use CFFI to access Win32 Console API
2015-06-17T15:16:22Z p_l: (or any other FFI, just encouraging portable ones xD)
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2015-06-17T15:39:13Z DamienCassou: hi
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2015-06-17T15:40:19Z DamienCassou: is it possible to open a stream for write with a different user than the one executing the current lisp file? I guess the only way is to go through the creation of a new shell
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2015-06-17T15:43:08Z loz: user is specified per process
2015-06-17T15:43:23Z loz: (if we are talking about unix-like systems)
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2015-06-17T15:45:38Z sarkyniin: Hey
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2015-06-17T15:45:43Z sarkyniin: I'm reading SICP and using arch linux
2015-06-17T15:45:50Z sarkyniin: what's the preferred scheme implementation for a beginner?
2015-06-17T15:45:54Z sarkyniin: Just classic mit-scheme?
2015-06-17T15:46:20Z Bike: try #scheme
2015-06-17T15:46:36Z sarkyniin: oh
2015-06-17T15:46:36Z loz: racket has sicp dialect or how do they call it
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2015-06-17T15:46:50Z dim: DamienCassou: maybe you can change euid from lisp?
2015-06-17T15:46:56Z dlowe: there's ##lisp, too
2015-06-17T15:46:58Z DamienCassou: loz: that's what I thought too. Thanks
2015-06-17T15:47:13Z p_l: DamienCassou: fwiw, mit-scheme was the canonical one for SICP
2015-06-17T15:47:26Z DamienCassou: sarkyniin: ^
2015-06-17T15:47:30Z p_l: (at least so long as we are talking not just about the book, but 6.001)
2015-06-17T15:47:38Z DamienCassou: p_l: I guess that was not for me
2015-06-17T15:47:47Z p_l: ... ahh, right
2015-06-17T15:47:52Z p_l: mixed up replies
2015-06-17T15:48:06Z sarkyniin: p_l: yeah, that's the one I have installed
2015-06-17T15:48:07Z sarkyniin: thanks
2015-06-17T15:48:34Z sarkyniin: lisp is kinda hard to understand since my first programming language experience was ruby
2015-06-17T15:48:43Z sarkyniin: well more hard to read than to understand
2015-06-17T15:49:03Z p_l: sarkyniin: old 6.001 course materials might be of use, and a student club is still keeping the course alive as an extra course
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2015-06-17T16:08:30Z theos: sarkyniin if you want to learn CL, get land of lisp
2015-06-17T16:10:34Z PuercoPop: sarkyniin: try #racket, Racket has a sicp mode, complete with the picture language and the non deterministic evaluator and is an easy install so imho it is the easiest way to get through the SICP
2015-06-17T16:10:53Z sarkyniin: PuercoPop: yeah I downloaded racket
2015-06-17T16:10:56Z sarkyniin: drracket is useful too
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2015-06-17T17:12:45Z TylerDurden is now known as sheilong
2015-06-17T17:13:26Z larxy: Hi! If you where to add a language feature to CL, where would you hook it in? Using a walker? perhaps the question is too generic.
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2015-06-17T17:14:17Z Adlai: larxy:you could implement control flow features as high-order functions, and wrap them with 'sugar' macros
2015-06-17T17:14:23Z Adlai: that should cover most usecases
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2015-06-17T17:17:21Z Shinmera: larxy: What's a "language feature"?
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2015-06-17T17:23:03Z fourier: larxy: depending on 'language feature'. it could be just macros or reader macros
2015-06-17T17:23:15Z fourier: any other ways?
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2015-06-17T17:25:31Z larxy: I would like to change/add/remove syntax and semantics, but at the end convert the lisp-form to a CL form.
2015-06-17T17:25:53Z Bike: that's not very specific. maybe you just need macros.
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2015-06-17T17:26:08Z dlowe: larxy: what is your program intended to do?
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2015-06-17T17:26:38Z brpocock: I seem to have read that, the only feature that can't be represented directly in CL, are “proper” continuations. Although continuation-passing-forms are possible. So, I suppose that would be the one “feature” left to add?
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2015-06-17T17:29:07Z larxy: brpocock: interesting, I guess that (CPS) would be needed if I want something like haskell.
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2015-06-17T17:30:15Z Bike: haskell's Cont monad doesn't require any notable language support, as far as i know. just monads
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2015-06-17T17:31:15Z dlowe: if you want something like haskell, perhaps you want haskell.
2015-06-17T17:31:21Z brpocock: I don't pretend to fathom the deep magic in λ calculus, but I have seen some very short Scheme become a bit uglier CL. *shrug*
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2015-06-17T17:32:21Z Bike: 1930s mathematics is hardly magical
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2015-06-17T17:33:09Z Bike: and you can write CPS in CL just as well as in scheme, since all you need is closures. that's why it's a "style". call/cc et al let you write more normally while taking advantage of some niceties of CPS.
2015-06-17T17:33:55Z Bike: as evidenced from cl-cont. http://quickdocs.org/cl-cont/api
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2015-06-17T17:43:32Z tokenrove: i thought there were specific limitations, like continuations in CL don't interact well with conditions or something
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2015-06-17T17:45:00Z tokenrove: but that might be based on reading kent pitman's unwind-protect vs continuations and accepting it at face value
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2015-06-17T17:46:12Z brpocock: IIRC, the cl-cont (and friends) only work when calling other functions which are specially instrumented to work with them, or so?
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2015-06-17T17:47:09Z p_l ponders if ZIO by chance counts as Continuation-Passing-Style..
2015-06-17T17:47:39Z nyef: p_l: That sounds something like "accidentally turing-complete".
2015-06-17T17:47:52Z p_l: it uses a kind-of dispatch table and a variable to know which function to call next, from my understanding, a bit like state machine, to implement a variable pipeline
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2015-06-17T17:48:09Z p_l: it's also at heart of nearly all disk i/o of my PC ^^;
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2015-06-17T17:48:47Z p_l: nyef: yes, it does sound like "accidentally turing-complete"
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2015-06-17T17:49:45Z p_l: after each "call" in the pipeline ends, it takes stock of the set of flags for the object and dispatches to next function according to that
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2015-06-17T17:57:28Z attila_lendvai: cl-cont and delico (originally call/cc in arnesi) are delimited continuation libs, i.e. your continuation only captures stuff that is within the bounds of transformed functions. if you call out from the transformed world, then you cannot capture a continuation anymore. I think both libs generate both the cc and non-cc versions  in their defun/cc macros
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2015-06-17T18:02:47Z jasom: Short of running the cffi groveler on errno.h, is there a library that will already let me decode errno?  I need to retry on EINTR
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2015-06-17T18:05:05Z jasom: ah, sb-posix has them
2015-06-17T18:05:17Z brpocock: Is there maybe a definition in your compiler? SBCL has them in sb-posix/sb-unix
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2015-06-17T18:10:55Z nyef: Note that SBCL considers sb-unix to be an "internal" package, liable to change incompatibly without notice. Stick with sb-posix if you want to be on the safe side.
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2015-06-17T18:17:20Z brpocock: There wouldn't happen to be any (conveniently already-written) method-combination libraries that, say, implement variable-arity-based dispatch like Clojure likes, are there?
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2015-06-17T18:18:23Z p_l: even if it doesn't have them, contextl might have interesting snippets of code to reuse?
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2015-06-17T18:19:52Z brpocock: I vaguely envision (&rest blah) (ecase (length blah) (1 (dest-bin/ … macro, just curious to /not/ see anything pop up in QL or quick Googlage. But yeah, thanks :-)
2015-06-17T18:20:10Z Posterdati: hi
2015-06-17T18:20:19Z nyef: ... How do I enable paredit in the CCL editor?
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2015-06-17T18:20:29Z BWV988: hi Posterdati :-)
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2015-06-17T18:21:38Z Posterdati: how can I use iolib.sockets:accept-connection in an unblocking fashion? Since it is in a server thread loop it happens that exiting from loop to finish the thread is not possible due to blocking accept-connection... Thanks
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2015-06-17T18:23:49Z fe[nl]ix: Posterdati: pass :wait nil
2015-06-17T18:24:07Z pjb: Posterdati: you can't.  I told you, you'd have to use accept4, or else fcntl before calling accept-connection.
2015-06-17T18:24:35Z Posterdati: pjb: accept4???
2015-06-17T18:24:40Z pjb: on linux.
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2015-06-17T18:25:07Z reb`: Posterdati: Read the Unix manual page for accept:  "man 2 accept"
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2015-06-17T18:25:29Z dlowe: Posterdati: you're not calling accept-connection in response to a read event on the listener?
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2015-06-17T18:25:49Z Posterdati: man 2 accept
2015-06-17T18:25:49Z Posterdati: No manual entry for accept in section 2
2015-06-17T18:26:08Z reb`: Install some manuals.
2015-06-17T18:26:14Z Posterdati: installed
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2015-06-17T18:26:26Z reb`: What OS are you using?
2015-06-17T18:26:37Z nyef: clhs values-list
2015-06-17T18:26:37Z Posterdati: reb`: debian 8
2015-06-17T18:26:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vals_l.htm
2015-06-17T18:27:09Z brpocock: http://linux.die.net/man/2/accept
2015-06-17T18:27:41Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: yes it's possible, wtf are you talking about ?
2015-06-17T18:27:46Z pjb: Posterdati: but :wait nil should work too.
2015-06-17T18:28:14Z Posterdati: and how can I test for client object returned?
2015-06-17T18:28:15Z fe[nl]ix: all FDs created with IOlib are non-blocking by default
2015-06-17T18:28:31Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: Since I assume some level of competence, if such a question is asked, I assume it's not trivially possible, so I start searching for the lower levels.
2015-06-17T18:28:54Z BWV988: not the nil by autechre :-)
2015-06-17T18:29:01Z pjb: I mean, if the guy cannot even type M-. on accept-connection to check the parameters, what hope is there?
2015-06-17T18:29:38Z fe[nl]ix: Posterdati: if you pass :wait nil and there's no connection pending, it will return NIL
2015-06-17T18:30:00Z fe[nl]ix: then you have to poll the descriptor for read status
2015-06-17T18:30:03Z reb`: Posterdati: "sudo apt-get install manpages-dev" may work for you.
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2015-06-17T18:34:46Z Posterdati: working thanks
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2015-06-17T18:35:31Z Posterdati: fe[nl]ix: I tested the code with :wait nil but wasn't working, maybe I did something wrong, because now it is working
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2015-06-17T18:36:36Z fe[nl]ix: cool :)
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2015-06-17T18:53:37Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ecl performing quite well on the mips boards
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2015-06-17T18:55:26Z aeth: Is there something like POSITION but for symbols instead of sequences? So e.g. I can try to find the first #\- in a symbol. If it's a string I can just do (position #\- "foo-bar")
2015-06-17T18:55:41Z dlowe: aeth: you'll have to get the name of the symbol first
2015-06-17T18:55:58Z dlowe: aeth: (position #\- (string 'foo-bar)) would work
2015-06-17T18:56:13Z dlowe: or (position #\- (symbol-name 'foo-bar))
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2015-06-17T19:22:16Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: that's good
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2015-06-17T19:25:15Z nyef: (nq-clim/geometry/standard-rectangle:make-rectangle* 10 20 10 40) => #.NQ-CLIM/GEOMETRY/NOWHERE:+NOWHERE+
2015-06-17T19:25:20Z nyef: Right, that's done.
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2015-06-17T19:47:25Z PuercoPop: brpocock: https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library does afaik.
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2015-06-17T20:02:41Z aeth: It'd be great if there was a complete separation of presentation from data on the Internet so I could e.g. get all my programming reference information inside emacs instead of having to search for things.
2015-06-17T20:03:03Z brpocock: ewww mode? :)
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2015-06-17T20:03:32Z jackdaniel: aeth: gopher?
2015-06-17T20:03:42Z aeth: no, more like e.g. if someone wrote a Creative Commons Hyperspec replacement (i.e. people free to copy it, etc.) in Markdown, rst, LaTeX etc. Doesn't matter which
2015-06-17T20:03:44Z brpocock: @PuercoPop: Thanks, looks like it probably does do so, but perhaps in a more complex way than is worthwhile for me to decode today :-( bookmarked for later though.
2015-06-17T20:04:03Z aeth: So then SLIME could ship with a hyperspec that you interact with completely differently than the HTML version of it
2015-06-17T20:04:14Z dlowe: ... apt-get install hyperspec
2015-06-17T20:04:36Z aeth: yeah, but I'm guessing that's the .html files. Why can't we have something like that instead of DESCRIBE, etc.?
2015-06-17T20:04:41Z aeth: Within the REPL itself
2015-06-17T20:04:49Z fourier: aeth: have you read this thread? http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/36kkdc/copyright_on_hyperspec/
2015-06-17T20:04:55Z dlowe: aeth: it's not.
2015-06-17T20:05:02Z dlowe: C-c C-d h
2015-06-17T20:05:10Z brpocock: (ql:quickload :clhs) ?
2015-06-17T20:05:22Z emaczen: aeth: If I install GCL I get .info hyperspec files
2015-06-17T20:05:25Z dlowe: I mean, it is, but you can still gt it from emacs and slime
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2015-06-17T20:06:10Z dlowe: aeth: I'm doing a project that generates another hyperspec. It turns out to be a wicked hard problem to do right.
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2015-06-17T20:07:17Z aeth: C-c C-d h opens firefox. It would be much better if I could just do (spec 'cons) and see something like http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_cons.htm
2015-06-17T20:07:19Z dlowe: though it has occurred to me that you could probably get mechanical turk to do it for a few thousand :p
2015-06-17T20:07:44Z aeth: There's no video in CLHS, there's no audio, there's no important images, etc. It would work fine within the SLIME REPL
2015-06-17T20:08:00Z dlowe: aeth: install w3m so you can browse from emacs
2015-06-17T20:08:01Z PuercoPop: brpocock: well you asked for conveniently already written :D. I guess otherwise you could hack something using the with-foo macro idiom and macro lambda lists, although it would work an a per function basis.
2015-06-17T20:08:04Z Bike: aeth: run a browser, open http://l1sp.org/cl/cons?
2015-06-17T20:08:08Z fourier: dlowe: I thought maybe we can start a kickstarter project to fund the conversion? how many man-months we need to finish the job.
2015-06-17T20:08:39Z cluck: dlowe: emacs has eww now
2015-06-17T20:08:45Z Bike: sorry, i should have read earlier messages.
2015-06-17T20:08:54Z brpocock: Yeah, the fact that (defgeneric) barfs on variable-arity means e.g. (defmethod foo :arity (a)) (defmethod foo :arity (a b)) doesn't work :-(
2015-06-17T20:08:57Z aeth: Bike: but the browser seems like an unnecessary step. It's just text, and it's not going to change anytime soon, and even if it was some sort of CC openspec wiki or something, it could always use some sort of cache that checks for updates (or be in Quicklisp or something)
2015-06-17T20:09:14Z Bike: aeth: you can install a clhs in emacs's info
2015-06-17T20:09:15Z dlowe: aeth: well, that's the state of things.
2015-06-17T20:09:19Z Bike: not... that i like it much, but it exists
2015-06-17T20:09:52Z aeth: dlowe: Why is the hyperspec hard to get right? And have you considered wikiing it to crowdsource it?
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2015-06-17T20:10:19Z dlowe: aeth: have you read the copyright of the hyperspec? go ahead. we'll wait.
2015-06-17T20:10:29Z aeth: I don't mean using the hyperspec itself.
2015-06-17T20:10:39Z dlowe: the draft ansi spec from which the hyperspec is derived is in LaTeX format
2015-06-17T20:10:40Z aeth: You can write a new description of the Common Lisp language.
2015-06-17T20:10:54Z dlowe: sure, but it won't be the spec.
2015-06-17T20:11:24Z brpocock: It *is* in Quicklisp. At least, the text is.
2015-06-17T20:11:31Z cluck: dlowe: alternatively you can just read it in info format (thanks to gcl) http://www.cliki.net/Hyperspec-Info
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2015-06-17T20:11:46Z dlowe: cluck: I have to wonder how that came to be
2015-06-17T20:12:03Z cluck: dlowe: what?
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2015-06-17T20:12:10Z dlowe: the info format version
2015-06-17T20:12:13Z Bike: i remember doing a latex -> troff -> info or some weird chain of conversions
2015-06-17T20:12:56Z Bike: oh, here it is: http://users-phys.au.dk/harder/dpans.html
2015-06-17T20:13:23Z Bike: "There are various existing ways to do the latter, though, by opening a web browser at the right spot in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. But this means leaving Emacs ... a Bad Thing™. " sounds pretty much like what aeth said
2015-06-17T20:13:49Z foom: ooh, fancy!
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2015-06-17T20:13:54Z cluck: dlowe: if i had to bet i'd say thanks to RMS
2015-06-17T20:14:04Z aeth: Bike: yes
2015-06-17T20:17:30Z foom: So, making a freely copyable modifiable hyperspec is basically done already
2015-06-17T20:17:59Z aeth: from the page: "I won't distribute the converted files, as the draft doesn't grant me permission to do so. So, you need to run the converter on the original TeX files yourself."
2015-06-17T20:18:17Z Bike: he links the tex in the instructions
2015-06-17T20:18:23Z Bike: i don't see a copyright notice in it, though
2015-06-17T20:18:28Z aeth: It's not really free, but it does work better in emacs than loading a separate tab on a separate web browser in a separate window (or even using an emacs web browser)
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2015-06-17T20:19:28Z foom: ISTR it's a generally held belief that the draft is freely distributable/modifiable.
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2015-06-17T20:21:00Z dlowe: at least, there's probably not a cranky individual who will sue you for modifying it
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2015-06-17T20:24:06Z foom: Well, if anyone has standing, it's the individual contributors who wrote it.
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2015-06-17T20:29:02Z brpocock: As for “who is responsible” for GCL's, it seems: <vvzhy@mail.ru> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gcl.git/commit/?id=4178627fc69f6d05bf6c72386fabcd3dd7600f40
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2015-06-17T20:29:34Z aeth: It's kind of disappointing that Lisp is specified in LaTeX, though. It would make more sense to specify it in s-expressions of strings that can be converted to whatever. i.e. specified in Lisp itself.
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2015-06-17T20:31:32Z oleo: eh ?
2015-06-17T20:32:12Z oleo: in latex ?
2015-06-17T20:32:13Z oleo: where ?
2015-06-17T20:32:38Z aeth: http://quimby.gnus.org/circus/cl/dpANS3/ http://quimby.gnus.org/circus/cl/dpANS3R/
2015-06-17T20:33:38Z aeth: Those are links from the info converter linked to above http://users-phys.au.dk/harder/dpans.html
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2015-06-17T20:34:40Z oleo: well i got may dpans in pdf......
2015-06-17T20:34:49Z oleo: converted it myself....once you compile......
2015-06-17T20:35:04Z oleo: you get a bunch of files which you can then merge.....
2015-06-17T20:35:31Z oleo: or wait i think that was ansicl, dpans comes with 3 versions.....
2015-06-17T20:36:06Z oleo: in letter format, in double sided and a4 consecutive or some such....
2015-06-17T20:36:35Z oleo: i don't like the double sided......
2015-06-17T20:36:46Z oleo: simple consecutive a4 is the one i use.....
2015-06-17T20:36:49Z Bike: are the ellipses really necessary
2015-06-17T20:37:10Z oleo: sorry
2015-06-17T20:37:13Z oleo: just habit
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2015-06-17T20:39:15Z kami: XachX: would you mind adding a (unless (boundp 'quicklisp-slime-helper-dist) (setq ...) to this line: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper/blob/master/slime-helper-template.el#L4 ?
2015-06-17T20:39:18Z larxy: aeth: what about DESCRIBE? though it is in no specified format, but atleast callable through slime/emacs.
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2015-06-17T20:40:35Z aeth: larxy: yes, I just wish there was a SPEC-DESCRIBE that returned the much more verbose spec description
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2015-06-17T20:41:09Z larxy: aeth: like haskell's :t
2015-06-17T20:41:20Z Bike: doesn't that give you a type?
2015-06-17T20:41:33Z Bike: no local ghci, darn
2015-06-17T20:42:07Z larxy: Bike: yes
2015-06-17T20:42:27Z Bike: that's not much like something that pulls the description from the standard
2015-06-17T20:42:36Z aeth: If there was a description of the Common Lisp language defined in s-expression form, then you could just access it with SPEC-DESCRIBE, or convert it to whatever you wanted (info, html, tex, etc.) if you wanted that.
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2015-06-17T20:43:19Z larxy: Bike: correct, I like Clisp's describe with fetches hyperspec. But sbcl is often enough to get the type i need.
2015-06-17T20:43:40Z aeth: oh, clisp fetches hyperspec? That must be why I like that one better than sbcl's
2015-06-17T20:44:02Z Bike: you can hook into it and stuff, i think.
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2015-06-17T20:44:30Z Bike: ...well you can do that for anything. i mean it is set up to grab hyperspec stuff, anyway.
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2015-06-17T20:46:20Z larxy: Bike: you can set the hyperspec repo to local (if you work offline, or just faster), but can you hook deeper? like having your own description with examples, for example the condition system (without having to surf to PCL).
2015-06-17T20:47:10Z Bike: i dunno, i don't use clisp. i was thinking of DESCRIBE-OBJECT, which you're probably not allowed to specialize on standard symbols, but whatever
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2015-06-17T20:49:44Z aeth: interesting. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9732827
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2015-06-17T20:50:10Z aeth: I wonder if this means better Parenscript (or a replacement to Parenscript)
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2015-06-17T21:01:12Z jasom: aeth: in the near-term it means nothing
2015-06-17T21:02:19Z jasom: aeth: I started on getting eclipse-lisp ported to emscripten (clisp and ecl both can't be ported without a lot of changes for various reasons)
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2015-06-17T21:02:59Z jasom: I don't think webassembly changes the fact that the web is a non-von-neumann architecture (i.e. you can't generate a bunch of bytes in core and then branch to them)
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2015-06-17T21:03:14Z jasom: which means sbcl and ccl won't port
2015-06-17T21:04:02Z p_l: jasom: afaik it's doable with asm.js, but frankly speaking, I wouldn't want to deal with asm.js
2015-06-17T21:04:16Z jasom: p_l: it's not
2015-06-17T21:04:25Z jasom: p_l: emscripten compiles to asm.js
2015-06-17T21:04:43Z p_l: jasom: not like it could make my opinion of asm.js better
2015-06-17T21:04:44Z jasom: asm.js doesn't have a stack pointer, for example which makes finding gc roots problematic
2015-06-17T21:04:54Z aeth: p_l: asm.js is dead (in the long run). There's now WebAssembly (.wasm) https://github.com/WebAssembly/design
2015-06-17T21:05:08Z jasom: aeth: webassembly is just a further codification of asm.js
2015-06-17T21:05:31Z aeth: jasom: ah
2015-06-17T21:05:45Z jasom: with the idea that once it's adopted as a separate file-type they can make breaking changes to wasm without having to pull more cruft into javascript
2015-06-17T21:06:37Z jasom: but stack manipulation is not on the table, nor (as far as I know) is executing out of the heap.
2015-06-17T21:07:10Z jasom: I was hopeful that clisp would port, since it uses a byte-code compiler, but it relies heavily on the existance of a manipulable stack pointer
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2015-06-17T21:08:20Z jasom: ECL's interpreter does very nearly port, but you have no compiler until someone ports a C compiler to asm.js, and even then you'd have to change how compiled objects are loaded into your image.
2015-06-17T21:08:21Z aeth: jasom: will .wasm add anything that will make porting easier or is it impossible with the way it's designed? I haven't looked into asm.js
2015-06-17T21:09:12Z jasom: aeth: I'm pretty sure that .wasm doesn't add an explicit stack, so that will make garbage collection problematic
2015-06-17T21:09:25Z jasom: it will likely at some point in the future add support for JITs, I suppose.
2015-06-17T21:09:34Z aeth: https://github.com/WebAssembly/design/blob/master/FutureFeatures.md#gcdom-integration
2015-06-17T21:09:42Z aeth: It looks like they want to have their own GC
2015-06-17T21:09:57Z jasom: aeth: that's talking about accessing javascript objects from wasm
2015-06-17T21:10:18Z jasom: somoene has ported boehm to asm.js so there exists a non-moving gc already
2015-06-17T21:10:25Z p_l: just read the HN thread about WebAssembly
2015-06-17T21:10:27Z PuercoPop: jasom: one thing I tried to do a while back was evaluate how hard would it be to map the desugared subset of CL that sbcl uses as a ICR (afaik) to the semantics spider monkey's AST that escodegen uses.
2015-06-17T21:10:35Z p_l: It makes me consider leaving IT
2015-06-17T21:10:46Z Bike: feeling optimistic, huh?
2015-06-17T21:10:58Z p_l: move somewhere where there will be no need or possibility to run web browser more complex than links
2015-06-17T21:11:12Z PuercoPop: of course things like #'open that use syscall would never work but it could be a nice start
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2015-06-17T21:12:05Z jasom: PuercoPop: if you provide a runtime, you can support things like open
2015-06-17T21:12:31Z p_l: Bike: today was a day marking that I managed to have a modest amount of tabs on "modern browser", without big "web" applications except for GMail open, from murderizing any other productivity, and it still caused GPU stalls that impacted whole system UI
2015-06-17T21:12:58Z Bike: heh. computers.
2015-06-17T21:13:27Z aeth: p_l: invent a new thing on top of the Internet, like the web, but without all the stuff that's been added on top of it recently. So simple hyperlinked documents defined with s-expressions
2015-06-17T21:13:27Z nyef: Computers. Can't live with 'em, but at least you can sell 'em for parts?
2015-06-17T21:13:31Z PuercoPop: like whalesong does to support racket's numeric tower? There are somethings that could map the the web APIs but others like shared state in threads are still not possible
2015-06-17T21:13:34Z aeth: p_l: the web is lost forever to multimedia
2015-06-17T21:13:47Z p_l: aeth: multimedia is actually least problematic part of the stack
2015-06-17T21:13:59Z jasom: p_l: disable hardware acceleration and use profile-sync-daemon
2015-06-17T21:14:10Z Bike: maybe we should stop calling them stacks, and start calling them piles
2015-06-17T21:14:11Z PuercoPop: Clojure's approach of leave it to the host semantics and focus on interfaces makes their job easier than in the case of CL.
2015-06-17T21:14:21Z p_l: even though thanks to mostly Mozilla HTML5 Video is kinda broken
2015-06-17T21:14:21Z aeth: ok the web is forever lost to news sites embedding 30 JavaScript trackers just to read a 500 word article.
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2015-06-17T21:14:41Z p_l: aeth: the web is forever lost to rampant webdevs
2015-06-17T21:14:48Z p_l: and browser developers
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2015-06-17T21:15:10Z p_l: but mostly, lost to JS
2015-06-17T21:15:26Z p_l: hell, a fixed up java applet would be all that would be needed for huge part of this crap
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2015-06-17T21:16:03Z aeth: JS will be dead whenever some trendy language using .wasm comes along. Web development is based on trends that seem to change completely every year.
2015-06-17T21:16:26Z aeth: Unfortunately it will probably be based on Java or something
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2015-06-17T21:16:30Z p_l: aeth: the damage will be already done, just with wasm this time, and huge amount of replicated work
2015-06-17T21:16:51Z p_l: replicated as in I'm essentially running two extra layers of emulation to get shit running
2015-06-17T21:17:27Z aeth: The problem is that web browsers give too much power to the web sites in terms of visuals/design/scripting.
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2015-06-17T21:18:03Z aeth: Because of this, every single website has to look and feel differently. It's a million steps back from the desktop where at least Windows kinda feels the same, Mac OS X kinda feels the same, GNOME kinda feels the same, KDE kinda feels the same, etc.
2015-06-17T21:18:23Z p_l: Mozilla's constant spiel about Web as portable application platform, bolstered early on by Apple, is probably to blame
2015-06-17T21:18:24Z aeth: (Except GNOME apps don't feel the same because it redesigns its design to be worse about every 6 months)
2015-06-17T21:18:26Z p_l: Google as well
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2015-06-17T21:20:07Z aeth: Well, the web is better than the 1990s where you'd get CD-ROMs for Windows 9x to do everything. Does anyone here remember Encarta?
2015-06-17T21:20:14Z p_l: I do
2015-06-17T21:20:28Z p_l: I somewhat find it semi-better - some of them had Java-based apps
2015-06-17T21:20:49Z aeth: At least I can use Wikipedia under Linux even though Wikipedia ironically seems about 10 years behind the web development best practices now
2015-06-17T21:20:59Z p_l: aeth: probably that's why ;P
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2015-06-17T21:21:41Z p_l: aeth: also, current situation is that I have huge HTML5 crap coupled with proprietary NPAPI plugins that don't work outside of Windows and OSX
2015-06-17T21:22:02Z aeth: NPAPI?
2015-06-17T21:22:19Z p_l: aeth: Netscape Plugin API
2015-06-17T21:22:23Z p_l: yes, that
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2015-06-17T21:22:54Z aeth: wow
2015-06-17T21:22:54Z p_l: It's why I need to use an android tablet at the same time as I work so I can do video conference, because they made a native application for that
2015-06-17T21:23:27Z emaczen: I'm trying to write a larger parenscript program with dependencies. I think the solution is to check each package you depend on for parenscript files, and then compile them to JS files, but I wanted to check with what people are doing and what has been done.
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2015-06-17T21:26:25Z aeth: p_l: I think there's a way to kill the web browser, though. And that's to encourage things like JSON APIs in parallel to .html files
2015-06-17T21:26:53Z aeth: So you can e.g. one day in emacs be able to just load emacs-native content from the Internet by parsing machine-friendly data, no need for the browser.
2015-06-17T21:27:09Z p_l: aeth: and murder HTTP used as half-baked reimplementation of half an OSI stack, done on drunken binge
2015-06-17T21:27:46Z p_l: json is probably bad choice, because you can forget about validation and specs that work
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2015-06-17T21:28:04Z Bike: definitely piles.
2015-06-17T21:28:06Z aeth: p_l: well yeah s-expressions work fine too
2015-06-17T21:28:49Z aeth: Imo there should be no reason to use anything other than s-expressions except when importing for compatability and when exporting to some final form (e.g. PDF or HTML) if needed.
2015-06-17T21:28:53Z p_l: aeth: S-expressions aren't too good for inter-app traffic, IMO
2015-06-17T21:29:06Z p_l: aeth: unless you impose extra structure on top of S-expressions
2015-06-17T21:29:25Z aeth: Well, yes, you build on s-expressions just like many standards build on XML
2015-06-17T21:29:28Z p_l: remember, S-expressions were never intended to be portable
2015-06-17T21:29:49Z p_l: aeth: XML semantics put on S-expressions or ASN.1 would be nice, yes
2015-06-17T21:30:19Z jasom: emaczen: I compile all the lisp files into one large .js file
2015-06-17T21:30:24Z p_l: ASN.1 DER would be a bit better, because then you drop the infamous XML Canonicalization stuff, which was necessary for crypto
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2015-06-17T21:30:42Z jasom: emaczen: I don't have dependencies on external parenscript files though right now.
2015-06-17T21:30:43Z emaczen: jasom: How does that work for out for debugging?
2015-06-17T21:30:56Z jasom: emaczen: it's fine on chrome, a bit slow on firefox
2015-06-17T21:31:11Z jasom: I can nearly always tell by the function name which file it came from
2015-06-17T21:31:33Z jasom: I considered adding a comment between each file, but I haven't needed it yet
2015-06-17T21:31:56Z emaczen: Either way, you hook into ASDF somehow right?
2015-06-17T21:32:06Z jasom: umm I probably should
2015-06-17T21:32:10Z aeth: If I were designing a modern lispm OS I would (1) use different types of s-expressions for everything on the OS that might be done with text or XML on Unix (logs, configuration, etc.); (2) encourage a dual-strategy of e.g. HTML and special s-expressions for data servers with the goal that eventually everything can be native in apps accessing Internet APIs on this lispm OS rather than through a browser.
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2015-06-17T21:32:40Z jasom: right now I have an eval-when that does it all, and I added the parenscript files as external dependencies of the lisp file that runs the eval-when
2015-06-17T21:33:07Z aeth: So the emacs-equivalent on this lispm OS would e.g. parse online documentation (with local caching?) based on an s-expression API format from the Internet, rather than constantly throwing the user into the browser
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2015-06-17T21:33:27Z p_l: aeth: I'd actually drop S-Expressions in many areas, leaving it as extra way for when you need to use text serialization
2015-06-17T21:33:55Z emaczen: jasom: Can you point me to this eval-when? I've always used ASDF for compiling so I am not familiar with it.
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2015-06-17T21:34:04Z jasom: clhs eval-when
2015-06-17T21:34:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2015-06-17T21:34:21Z jasom: emaczen: it's an ugly hack since I was too busy to lookup how to customize ASDF
2015-06-17T21:34:45Z jasom: I use eval-when to generate the javascript at compile-time.  I don't recommend this approach
2015-06-17T21:34:49Z emaczen: Does it get executed at the same time when you (require :your-package)?
2015-06-17T21:35:06Z jasom: emaczen: yes (though I don't use require, since it's non-portable)
2015-06-17T21:35:25Z emaczen: asdf:load-package then?
2015-06-17T21:35:32Z aeth: p_l: what about compressed text s-expressions?
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2015-06-17T21:35:44Z jasom: emaczen: well how it works now is that it gets executed when the lisp file is compiled, not loaded, so it may not get executed if everything is up-to-date.
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2015-06-17T21:37:34Z aeth: (Oh, and in the unlikely event that people would use this hypothetical emacs-like editor/browser on their hypothetical lispm OS, what will probably happen is that that emacs would just grow into a new web browser over 20 years)
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2015-06-17T21:38:02Z p_l: aeth: ASN.1 DER has certain advantages that mean that it's easy for example to create signed documents where you sign *contents* instead of *byte string*
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2015-06-17T21:38:39Z brpocock: +1 aeth, I'll beta-test, let me know when it's on GitHub ;-)
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2015-06-17T21:39:38Z p_l: aeth: also, consider, iirc, Interlisp, which didn't use text by default
2015-06-17T21:40:21Z brpocock: I'd be happy enough with whatever notation, so long as it preserves some basic hyperlinking. JavaDoc in Eclipse is a fair example.
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2015-06-17T21:41:25Z emaczen: jasom: Where do you put your eval-when form?
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2015-06-17T21:41:40Z jasom: emaczen: in a .lisp file that depends on the parenscript I want compiled
2015-06-17T21:41:56Z PuercoPop: p_l: Regarding unnecessary layers of compatibility/abstraction a friend was befuddled when I explained websockets to him.
2015-06-17T21:42:08Z p_l: heh
2015-06-17T21:42:23Z p_l: Websockets is somewhat sane
2015-06-17T21:44:09Z jasom: I agree, it's one of the more sane things to come out of the web 2.0 craze
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2015-06-17T21:44:39Z jasom: there were dozens of server-push and polling solutions; how about just a simple bi-directional message passing system?
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2015-06-17T21:46:04Z p_l: WebRTC shows how assholish decisions involved in making todays internet access broke stuff - they have to emulate SCTP over UDP
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2015-06-17T21:46:37Z jasom: p_l: see also spdy/http2
2015-06-17T21:46:52Z jasom: which implements 60% of SCTP over tcp
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2015-06-17T21:48:49Z emaczen: Do browsers have a one-pass compile/load phase for JS
2015-06-17T21:48:55Z brpocock: PuercoPop: after making a gross macro DEFN, I see QL "incongruent methods" does 95% of the work, better. Just needs '&='&rest
2015-06-17T21:49:00Z aeth: I guess this is what happens when you have lots of users too soon, like with the web
2015-06-17T21:49:46Z aeth: There were a lot of really bad decisions in the 1990s with web browsers that we're still living with
2015-06-17T21:49:50Z brpocock: emaczen: More often a kind of JIT interpreter/compiler hybrid, eg https://wingolog.org/archives/2011/08/02/a-closer-look-at-crankshaft-v8s-optimizing-compiler
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2015-06-17T21:54:30Z jasom: emaczen: basically I created a .lisp file with an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) generate-js-here) and had it depend on :static-file components that contained the parenscript
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2015-06-17T21:55:17Z jasom: emaczen: it actually does a few other things, such as apply the React jsx transformation, and (depending on a feature flag) run the result through a minifier
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2015-06-17T21:55:55Z aeth: brpocock: I'm not sure if git is the ideal platform for Common Lisp projects, actually. git is line-based whereas lines in Lisp only really seem to matter for whitespace and comments.
2015-06-17T21:56:06Z jasom: emaczen: much cleaner would be to create a new "perform" operation to do all this
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2015-06-17T21:56:21Z emaczen: jasom: Yeah, I just need to get something to "work" first :)
2015-06-17T21:57:45Z emaczen: That's still pretty cool though :)
2015-06-17T21:58:29Z aeth: One thing that annoys me about git is that changes in indentation or newlines can make a commit look more significant than it actually is, e.g. turn a LET into a LET* and every definition at the top of that LET* is "changed" even if you don't change anything there, because there's one more space in front of each line for the bindings part of the LET*.
2015-06-17T21:58:56Z oGMo: how is that anything related to git :p
2015-06-17T21:59:32Z aeth: git works based on diffs of text lines, rather than based on diffs that are smart
2015-06-17T21:59:38Z oGMo: like ever vcs ever
2015-06-17T21:59:39Z Bike: sub-line-based diffs are weird.
2015-06-17T21:59:45Z Bike: so are line based diffs, but still.
2015-06-17T21:59:51Z brpocock: I often use “ignore whitespace” in (ediff, meld, GitHib) to preview. And use emacs+slime autoformatter before committing to ensure consistent indentation, at least (although a ~<-like smart word wrap at ~72…80 cols would be nice)
2015-06-17T22:00:03Z oGMo: though you can make it ignore some whitespace, but
2015-06-17T22:00:14Z aeth: changing a let to a let* in a place with 10 bindings should be a change of 1 (the let to let*) not a change of 10 (the 10 lines)
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2015-06-17T22:01:01Z aeth: brpocock: I try to wrap at 100 but Lisp is so verbose in variable/function names that I often just make it 120
2015-06-17T22:01:04Z brpocock: @aeth: although a git-alike that could parse Lisp source texts inherently would be nice. (Whilst preserving reader macros and the like)
2015-06-17T22:01:06Z Bike: requires a more complicated program to make diffs. worse is better or something
2015-06-17T22:01:50Z aeth: brpocock: it would be great if there was a DVCS that didn't care about the wrapping or the indentation, so someone could use tabs or spaces or a mix, and have it wrap at 80 or 100 or 120 or never, and everyone could still cooperate on that one file
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2015-06-17T22:01:54Z brpocock: I still like 72, but then, I tend to have 4×2 “windows” in Emacs going.
2015-06-17T22:01:54Z aeth: The problem would be the comments
2015-06-17T22:02:46Z aeth: emacs already auto-intents Lisp well, so a lot of the work's already been done
2015-06-17T22:02:49Z brpocock: I started writing an Emacs “Lisp Cleaner” to re-wrap, re-format, case-fold to lower-case, and M-q the comments and docstrings.
2015-06-17T22:04:26Z brpocock: However, it's on the pile of “maybe someday it won't mutilate lines ending in ; and sometimes chomp random letters out of function names;” but slime (for &body) + paredit + M-x indent-region / M-q in comments/docstrings do most of the work.
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2015-06-17T22:05:49Z brpocock: It probably should iterate on the syntax-class of the strings rather than trying to use re-search-forward & paredit-in-(string comment …)-p to figure out what things are being
2015-06-17T22:06:19Z jasom: emaczen: https://phab.jasom.org/F4884 <-- I made a simple example
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2015-06-17T22:06:42Z brpocock: We used a not-dissimilar Elisp macro as a Subversion commit hook, and Eclipse's formatter does much of the same on-save for Java.
2015-06-17T22:06:54Z aeth: Bike: technically you don't even have to make it separate to git, it can just be something that runs alongside git, i.e. it changes the code you're working to into a standard format for the repo but then when you pull someone else's code and view it in the editor, you're viewing it the way you want
2015-06-17T22:07:42Z aeth: Obviously not as useful as an s-exp-aware DVCS (10 lines will still be 10 lines) but it would give you a lot of the features of one without having to code one
2015-06-17T22:09:55Z aeth: It would just need to know about a few "always newline", e.g. "(defun foo (bar baz)\n", and the rest would be based on the configured line length with a default used in the repo itself
2015-06-17T22:10:30Z brpocock: It's plausible that even unwrapping all non-(string,comment) #\newlines and padding every (actual) #\( #\) with #\newline to either side would be a viable hack, if you could reformat things on the way (in out)
2015-06-17T22:10:50Z aeth: "(blah ; comment\n" could also be handled as another "always newline" moment in the code
2015-06-17T22:11:09Z brpocock: ( \n defun foo \n ( \n + x 1 \n ) \n ) \n
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2015-06-17T22:28:07Z pjb: aeth: do double commits!
2015-06-17T22:28:48Z pjb: aeth: type * after let then C-x v v C-x v v let -> let* RET then M-q and  C-x v v C-x v v Reindent. RET
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2015-06-17T22:29:56Z pjb: aeth: but arguably, since let -> let* changes the semantics for all the binding expressions, you do want them in the diff for code review.
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2015-06-17T22:34:40Z brpocock: pjb: less so when it's a change like respelling a function name to be longer-or-shorter and having a list of keyword args re-align, eg.
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2015-06-17T22:39:48Z drmeister: Cleavir+clasp+inlining compiles and runs. No timing data yet. Must proceed carefully.
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2015-06-17T22:40:18Z slyrus: nice!
2015-06-17T22:40:36Z slyrus: things are faster than when we last spoke?
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2015-06-17T22:48:50Z drmeister: Yes and inlining should improve things speed wise.
2015-06-17T22:50:21Z drmeister: slyrus: I gave a talk at Google in Boston last week. It's online. The first 10 min give a nice summary of what I'm trying to achieve.
2015-06-17T22:50:39Z slyrus: cool! I'll check it out.
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2015-06-17T22:51:25Z drmeister: I'm coming out August 3 to give part 2 at Google in mountain view
2015-06-17T22:51:39Z man213: drmeister: just finished watching it several minutes ago and building clasp right now! it was really great talk!
2015-06-17T22:52:05Z schjetne: drmeister: I saw it too, really cool to get the longer version of the chemistry part.
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2015-06-17T22:52:36Z drmeister: schjetne: Thanks!
2015-06-17T22:52:51Z drmeister: man213: Thanks as well.
2015-06-17T22:53:26Z drmeister: man213: I'll have a new version of Clasp going up soon. This one will be... faster.
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2015-06-17T22:54:26Z drmeister: If you run into trouble - check out #clasp - or just sit tight for a bit (indeterminate time < 2weeks)
2015-06-17T22:54:44Z man213: <drmeister> Is there a connection between the Lego concept and so called "click chemistry"?
2015-06-17T22:54:52Z drmeister: slyrus: https://drmeister.wordpress.com
2015-06-17T22:55:04Z drmeister: That has the video link.
2015-06-17T22:55:12Z man213: drmeister: Is there a connection between the Lego concept and so called "click chemistry"?
2015-06-17T22:55:34Z man213: sorry, forgot that i can't edit my previous message here
2015-06-17T22:57:05Z drmeister: "Click chemistry" means take really robust, clean reactions and use them to connect together molecules into larger ones.  Forming amide bonds are one of those reactions.   I'm making rigid building blocks and connecting them through two amide bonds - so in that respect - yes.
2015-06-17T22:57:39Z man213: drmeister: Got it.
2015-06-17T22:57:49Z drmeister: Chemical reactions range from highly unreliable to excellent in terms of how well they work.  "Click chemistry" means limiting yourself to the really excellent ones.
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2015-06-17T22:58:33Z schjetne: The nanobot implications are very facinating. I guess if we end up in a grey goo dystopia and someone asks the classic 'what is Lisp used for' question we can just point and say 'that' ;)
2015-06-17T22:59:49Z drmeister: Grey goo is probably impossible because any nanodevice that would work that fast would (1) melt itself and (2) run out of fuel before it could do much damage.
2015-06-17T23:00:11Z drmeister: We already live with "Green goo", we deal with it with weed wackers.
2015-06-17T23:00:23Z oGMo: drmeister: stop injecting realsim into paranoid fantasies ;)
2015-06-17T23:00:31Z oGMo: "realism"
2015-06-17T23:00:59Z drmeister: Then there is just the insane complexity of trying to build a molecular device that can disassemble any bond.  I'm a card carrying chemist - I teach this stuff to undergraduates - that's nuts.
2015-06-17T23:01:35Z drmeister: Eric Drexler had a wonderful imagination but he laid an egg with that concept.
2015-06-17T23:01:37Z oGMo: i'm not---never even took highschool chem---but that's always seemed logical
2015-06-17T23:01:56Z schjetne: I also learned something new about lignin
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2015-06-17T23:02:21Z drmeister: "Lignin - a material that you can make anything out of - except money" - unknown.
2015-06-17T23:02:42Z drmeister: Yeah, it's biological plastic.  It's the only really disordered polymer in nature.
2015-06-17T23:03:17Z drmeister: I shouldn't say "only" but definitely the most prevalent by many, many orders of magnitude.
2015-06-17T23:03:31Z p_l: chemistry also belongs to the few sciences that have subfields where "go boom" is common occurence... :D
2015-06-17T23:03:52Z p_l reads "in the pipeline"'s "stuff I won't work with" page ;)
2015-06-17T23:04:20Z schjetne: I learned about the carboniferous period in school, but they never bothered to tell us why it was carboniferous, so thanks for clearing that up!
2015-06-17T23:05:05Z man213: "go booom" is the great evidence of your efforts. it's hard to describe to people what you're making or researching when you're dealing with invisible things. server side programming for example :)
2015-06-17T23:05:08Z drmeister: Carboniferous period: 100 million years of trees building lignin and nothing was able to break it down but forest fires.
2015-06-17T23:05:54Z drmeister: CO2 levels went down, O2 levels went up, bugs the size of Volkswagens.
2015-06-17T23:06:06Z drmeister: Well, dinner plates.
2015-06-17T23:06:16Z p_l: man213: fluorine chemistry or lots of volatile nitrogen bonds are both things to run away from. Fast. Upwind
2015-06-17T23:06:32Z drmeister: Anyway - we should probably get back on topic.
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2015-06-17T23:12:07Z man213: I remember in school me and my friend were making Hg(SCN)2 at home. It was very impressive to watch it's thermal decomposition. Another good example of matherial evidence of how cool science is.
2015-06-17T23:13:24Z Bike: They let you do Pharoah's Serpent at home?
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2015-06-17T23:14:43Z man213: They?
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2015-06-17T23:15:21Z Bike: your teachers, i guess?
2015-06-17T23:17:30Z man213: We called it ginger worms). No, they did not knew about it. For them we were ordinary hooligans.
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2015-06-17T23:17:42Z drmeister: Oh dear.
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2015-06-17T23:18:02Z man213: Pharoah's Serpent - what an intresting name!
2015-06-17T23:18:10Z drmeister: That is dangerous stuff.  Hazmat cleanup level stuff.
2015-06-17T23:19:24Z drmeister: You're here so I'd say you avoided significant neurological damage. But if you have any more mercury compounds, you should probably bring them to someone who can deal with them.
2015-06-17T23:20:14Z drmeister is a fan on carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen.
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2015-06-17T23:20:22Z drmeister: You know where you stand with those elements.
2015-06-17T23:20:40Z man213: It was years ago, and we were young and stupid.
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2015-06-17T23:21:56Z man213: My friend is working somewhere in Tashkent now, in pharma company, and I studied at theor. physics department))
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2015-06-17T23:27:22Z pjb: drmeister: ah the good old CHON (it's Oxygen then Nitrogen) popularised by Asimov.
2015-06-17T23:29:17Z drmeister: pjb: CHON? Where did he coin that term?
2015-06-17T23:30:08Z pjb: It's only a mnemotechnic term for Carbon Hydrogen Oxygen and Nitrogen, needed to synthesize food in space ships.
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2015-06-17T23:30:26Z pjb: Chow CHON :-)
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2015-06-17T23:31:11Z schjetne: That sounds like something the level 5 vegans could eat
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2015-06-17T23:32:08Z pjb: Well, nutritionally, this is insufficient, we need oligoelements too. A few atoms of that, a few atoms of the other, in addition to CHON.
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2015-06-17T23:33:32Z pjb: Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Lithium, Selenium, Gold, Xenon, etc.
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2015-06-17T23:36:53Z schjetne: pjb: Xenon is a nutrient?
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2015-06-17T23:37:37Z pjb`: schjetne: there's a theory you need a few of them in the brain to set up a communication channel between the brain and the soul.
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2015-06-17T23:38:14Z cluck: correction, there's a stupid theory
2015-06-17T23:38:36Z aeth: Let's say I define a constant list within a function definition. so e.g. (defun foo (n) (let ((bar '("a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f" "g"))) (elt bar n)))
2015-06-17T23:38:47Z pjb: cluck: until we have instrument to detect them in all human brains, and wonder what they're used for.
2015-06-17T23:39:02Z pjb: aeth: ok.
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2015-06-17T23:39:18Z aeth: Would it be better to instead (defparameter *bar* '("a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f" "g")) and change the defun to (defun foo (n) (elt *bar* n)) for performance?
2015-06-17T23:39:26Z pjb: No.
2015-06-17T23:39:27Z aeth: Or does it not actually create a new bar every time it's run?
2015-06-17T23:39:34Z pjb: It doesn't.
2015-06-17T23:39:39Z pjb: That's what literal means, basically.
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2015-06-17T23:39:52Z cluck: pjb: >implying the singularity won't end us all before that ever has a chance to happen ;)
2015-06-17T23:39:54Z pjb: This is also why you should not mutate your literals, even if the implementation allows it.
2015-06-17T23:40:03Z pjb: cluck: granted.
2015-06-17T23:40:18Z aeth: pjb: so that's why I need to do it as '("a" "b" "c" ...) instead of (list "a" "b" "c" ...) ?
2015-06-17T23:40:36Z pjb: yes. list would create a new list each time.
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2015-06-17T23:43:40Z aeth: What if I defun inside of a defun? It doesn't call the inside defun to literally make a new bar each time, does it? (defun foo () (defun bar () ...
2015-06-17T23:43:56Z pjb: it's a very bad idea. It won't do what you think it does.
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2015-06-17T23:44:21Z pjb: It does indeed literally make a new bar each time.
2015-06-17T23:44:21Z aeth: Even if bar's only used inside of foo?
2015-06-17T23:44:21Z brpocock: macroexpand defun is edifying there :-)
2015-06-17T23:44:33Z pjb: even.
2015-06-17T23:45:17Z XachX: pjb: pohl, rather
2015-06-17T23:45:23Z pjb: and it's even worse, because if for any reason, it's known there's a bar function in the same compilation unit, the all the calls to bar may be hardwired, and then the each redefinition is useless.
2015-06-17T23:45:42Z pjb: XachX: thanks, I had a doubt indeed.
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2015-06-17T23:46:36Z pjb: aeth: use flet or labels to declare local functions.
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2015-06-17T23:52:50Z Bike: on the note of micronutrients i want to mention that humans need trace vanadium and no one really knows why, because i think that's pretty spooky.
2015-06-17T23:53:22Z Bike: aeth: scheme lets "define" do an actual local definition, but it's by macro hackery to have something like flet. maybe that's why you're confused?
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