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2015-05-14T02:30:17Z loke: hitecnologys: Or forth
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2015-05-14T02:41:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-14T02:45:39Z duko: good morning
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2015-05-14T02:50:43Z loke: good morning beach
2015-05-14T02:50:50Z loke: and everyone
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2015-05-14T03:57:28Z loke: who was the developer of cl-durian?
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2015-05-14T04:04:38Z pillton: G'day everyone.
2015-05-14T04:05:47Z Bike: loke: protist?
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2015-05-14T04:07:18Z loke: Ah
2015-05-14T04:07:33Z loke: I'm a bit confused by it
2015-05-14T04:07:42Z loke: How do I use it to creatye an IMG?
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2015-05-14T04:13:13Z beach: Hello pillton.
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2015-05-14T04:21:46Z pillton: What do you think result 1 and 2 should be in http://paste.lisp.org/display/148231 ?
2015-05-14T04:24:13Z beach: 1: ((?x . 1) (?y . nil))
2015-05-14T04:24:17Z Bike: going off cl semantics 1 would be 1 NIL and 2 would be... maybe illegal? i don't remember.
2015-05-14T04:25:13Z beach: Yeah, 2 depends on whether you do any unification or such.
2015-05-14T04:25:56Z Bike: oh, right, reject it then.
2015-05-14T04:26:15Z pillton: Hmm interesting.
2015-05-14T04:26:55Z pillton: This is the second time this year I have a problem where I need to distinguish between "required" keyword arguments and "optional" keyword arguments.
2015-05-14T04:27:27Z Bike: and then (match '(my-func 1 :a 1) '(my-func ?x &key (a ?x)) => (?x 1), and (match '(my-func nil) '(my-func ?x &key (a ?x))) => (?x nil)
2015-05-14T04:28:06Z Bike: though i guess the syntax for keys is a bit weird. i'd try to do, like, &key ((keyword variable) default -p) i guess, so ((:a ?x))?
2015-05-14T04:28:25Z pillton: Yes. I treat the keyword arguments as optional.
2015-05-14T04:28:50Z pillton: i.e. result 1 and 2 are ((?x . 1)).
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2015-05-14T04:29:08Z Bike: er, i meant the lambda list syntax.
2015-05-14T04:29:24Z Bike: you have (keyword variable) instead of ((keyword variable) default -p) like cl, i think.
2015-05-14T04:29:58Z pillton: Yeah. Ok. I need to think a bit more.
2015-05-14T04:30:29Z Bike: ...i think this is unrelated, but i just looked up 3.4.4.1.2 and i think it says you can do macro destructuring in a key argument? damn, man
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2015-05-14T04:32:20Z smokeink: has anyone tried https://github.com/W-Net-AI/lisp-cv ? i don't know with which opencv version i should try it
2015-05-14T04:33:47Z pillton: What if I renamed it destructuring-match?
2015-05-14T04:34:07Z Bike: i think match is fine.
2015-05-14T04:34:21Z Bike: i mean, who heard of a matcher that doesn't destructure?
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2015-05-14T04:37:02Z pillton: Hmm good point.
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2015-05-14T04:43:45Z pillton: Thanks beach and Bike..
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2015-05-14T05:38:45Z kami: Good morning
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2015-05-14T05:44:41Z beach: Hello kami.
2015-05-14T05:47:21Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-05-14T06:10:31Z beach: jackdaniel: I just merged your changes.  Thanks again.
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2015-05-14T06:10:46Z beach: jackdaniel: This ANSI test suite will be dynamite one day. :)
2015-05-14T06:11:08Z smokeink: Unable to load foreign library (HIGHGUI). Error opening shared object "/usr/lib/libopencv_highgui.so.2.4.10": /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.30: undefined symbol: p11_kit_uri_get_pin_value
2015-05-14T06:11:16Z smokeink: what to do in such a situation?
2015-05-14T06:11:39Z Bike: probably a version mismatch
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2015-05-14T06:12:41Z smokeink: yes it looks like a version mismatch.. are there ways to find the correct versions i should install?
2015-05-14T06:12:45Z loke: Is (X)HTMΛ on quicklisp?
2015-05-14T06:14:18Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah. I wonder, what url is main - rtoy or yours? in regard of pointing people to tests (had one such question so far)
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2015-05-14T06:15:10Z smokeink: objdump -T libgnutls.so.30 | grep p11_kit_uri_get_pin_value
2015-05-14T06:15:14Z smokeink: 0000000000000000      DF *UND*  0000000000000000              p11_kit_uri_get_pin_value
2015-05-14T06:15:31Z jackdaniel: keeping two center points denies term center
2015-05-14T06:15:53Z beach: jackdaniel: I have write permission to both, so I intend to forward all changes from mine to his.
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2015-05-14T06:16:23Z jackdaniel: then advertisment url is rtoy's then?
2015-05-14T06:16:37Z Bike: smokeink: it seems to have been added in february (https://gitorious.org/gnutls/gnutls/commit/11d79ec133e1adeed3213cbd8642b2c0e07b41ee). if your gnutls is from a distro, maybe just try building it from source.
2015-05-14T06:16:56Z beach: jackdaniel: That's fine.
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2015-05-14T06:21:59Z jackdaniel: beach: if I'll have some time (doubtly, but if), I'll write a few helper commands and wrap tests in nice interface. It'd be nice to have it on quicklisp instead of calling -eval do.lsp
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2015-05-14T06:23:25Z jackdaniel: by nice interface I mean running only specific subsets of tests
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2015-05-14T06:40:13Z beach: That would be great.
2015-05-14T06:40:32Z beach: Oh, one thing.  I am not sure I will see a pull request sent to rtoy's repository.
2015-05-14T06:40:53Z beach: Therefore, it might be best to make pull requests to mine.
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2015-05-14T06:42:38Z drmeister: Hey beach - I'm about to go to bed.  I'm converting all x.as<Foo_O>() -->  As<Foo_sp>(x)     this should make it easier to get immediate fixnums, characters and single-floats working.
2015-05-14T06:42:54Z beach: drmeister: Excellent!
2015-05-14T06:43:20Z drmeister: There are about 1000 of them in my code.  I'm using automated C++ refactoring.
2015-05-14T06:43:37Z Zhivago: More readable, to.
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2015-05-14T06:48:17Z beach: drmeister: In those expressions, is x the only thing that varies?
2015-05-14T06:48:33Z beach: ... and Foo?
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2015-05-14T06:52:09Z jackdaniel: beach: np
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2015-05-14T06:54:12Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, one more thing.  It would be great to add a comment to each test stating the reason why we think it ought to have that particular result, especially for those somewhat complicated FORMAT directives.
2015-05-14T06:54:27Z beach: jackdaniel: But don't worry about it if you don't have time.
2015-05-14T06:54:35Z theos: hey
2015-05-14T06:54:43Z beach: Hello theos.
2015-05-14T06:55:01Z beach: jackdaniel: A summary of the discussion in #lisp would be good for instance.
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2015-05-14T07:11:38Z smokeink: is any cffi guru willing to give https://github.com/W-Net-AI/lisp-cv a try? i've been messing with it for a few days still can't make it load...
2015-05-14T07:12:59Z White_Flame: I don't think that's a very mature binding set
2015-05-14T07:13:07Z smokeink: i intalled this https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/gnutls/ (updated in May) it still gives /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.30: undefined symbol: p11_kit_uri_get_pin_value
2015-05-14T07:13:18Z White_Flame: I had been helping the guy out who was writing it, and as the note says, he put his work on hold as CLASP seems like a better idea for it
2015-05-14T07:13:31Z smokeink: it's very mature compared to others.. it has 20 000 lines of examples
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2015-05-14T07:14:37Z White_Flame: that's not an indicator of maturity...
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2015-05-14T07:15:53Z White_Flame: in any case, he was loading & executing pieces as he was building up the bindings, making various decisions on how to handle memory management, I would highly suspect that it's not in a very portable state, and likely in the middle of some sweeping changes
2015-05-14T07:16:36Z White_Flame: but I haven't spoken with him in quite a few months
2015-05-14T07:17:56Z White_Flame: yeah, the last time he was on #opencv-c was last september
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2015-05-14T07:19:02Z smokeink: the only 'alternative' is to switch to c/c++ it seems.. there's also this one which i managed to load but it has no documentation, no examples, and it's damn old https://github.com/ryepup/cl-opencv
2015-05-14T07:19:56Z White_Flame: yeah, that's the reason he wanted to write his own bindings, as nothing out there seemed to do it yet
2015-05-14T07:20:13Z White_Flame: and to be honest, it was a "I want to learn Lisp" project
2015-05-14T07:21:16Z beach: Writing FFI bindings is a way to learn Lisp?  Hmm.
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2015-05-14T07:23:33Z kami: Is there any documentation generation framework which supports cross-referencing (hyperlinking) functions/special vars etc.?
2015-05-14T07:24:24Z kami: I mean sth like writing the function name as `foo' in the docstring and that being translated to a link?
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2015-05-14T07:28:49Z White_Flame: the thing is, since SLIME pretty much does all that, I don't think there's a lot of impetus to make a HTML version of the same, especially when function generating macros are in use
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2015-05-14T07:29:55Z White_Flame: the API isn't necessarily a static set of fixed definitions in the source code; though any doc generator could be run after everything's loaded and initialized, but that wouldn't work well with comment-scraping from the source code
2015-05-14T07:30:22Z White_Flame: as many other languages do it
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2015-05-14T07:34:30Z beach: YAY! In phase 1 of booting SICL, I can now load the entire MOP class hierarchy, including CLASS and STANDARD-CLASS into a SICL first-class global environment defined in the host Common Lisp system.
2015-05-14T07:34:58Z White_Flame: excellent!
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2015-05-14T07:39:27Z beach: In phase 1, they become host standard classes, so nothing fancy in phase 1.  However, they do have the correct names, i.e. CL:CLASS and CL:STANDARD-CLASS.
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2015-05-14T07:46:31Z beach: I should write an essay entitled "Docstrings considered harmful".
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2015-05-14T07:54:21Z schjetne: beach: that would give me a nice excuse for being too lazy to write them
2015-05-14T07:55:27Z beach: On the contrary, you would have to write more then.  My problem is not with documentation per se, but with documentation strings attached to source code.
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2015-05-14T07:56:13Z schjetne: Ah, yes, I think I read the bit about putting them in a separate location for easy internationalisation
2015-05-14T07:56:29Z beach: Yes, that and a few more reasons:
2015-05-14T07:56:53Z beach: 1. They are noise in the source code because the target audience for source code is not the target audience for the documentation strings.
2015-05-14T07:57:18Z beach: 2. Because they are noise in source code, people tend to keep them short, which makes them incomplete.
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2015-05-14T07:57:51Z White_Flame: it all tracks back to still using 1950s-era text files for source code
2015-05-14T07:58:04Z White_Flame: instead of proper structural IDEs
2015-05-14T07:58:07Z beach: 3. Because they are attached to source code, there is no natural way to write documentation that explains architecture and general concepts.  So the documentation becomes a collection of incomprehensible snippets.
2015-05-14T07:58:33Z beach: White_Flame: Exactly.
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2015-05-14T07:59:01Z White_Flame: also 4. No way to include links, diagrams, tables, etc
2015-05-14T07:59:17Z Zhivago: Plenty of systems have used proper structural IDEs.
2015-05-14T07:59:29Z Zhivago: The interesting thing is that they are largely non-extant.
2015-05-14T07:59:29Z beach: White_Flame: Indeed.  I'll remember that when I get around to writing the essay.
2015-05-14T07:59:31Z White_Flame: or as my business partner puts it, "Your secretary has better tools for writing letters than your programmers do for documenting source code."
2015-05-14T07:59:47Z schjetne: Yes, I tried some solutions to generate Texinfo from Lisp source, and found it quite unsatisfactory
2015-05-14T07:59:53Z White_Flame: "And programmers wrote the word processors"
2015-05-14T07:59:55Z Zhivago: The problem with proper structural IDEs is that they are fragile and have a short lifespan.
2015-05-14T08:00:27Z Zhivago: Which means that 10-15 years later what you wrote has probably succumbed to bit-rot, while the stupid text files of your competitors have not.
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2015-05-14T08:00:47Z beach: schjetne: Oh, like COBOL?  Turn (incf x) into "Add 1 to the variable x and put the result back in the variable x"?
2015-05-14T08:00:58Z Zhivago: I think that you should use stupid text files, and present them beautifully -- fortress was on the right path with that.
2015-05-14T08:01:13Z schjetne: White_Flame: And secretaries seem to have quite lousy tools, unless they happen to be Bernard Greenberg's secretaries
2015-05-14T08:01:26Z beach: Heh!
2015-05-14T08:01:29Z White_Flame: Look at databases.  Text files are an import/export mechanism, not the version that's manipulated
2015-05-14T08:01:37Z Shinmera likes "stupid text files" and loathes WYSIWYG-like editors.
2015-05-14T08:01:51Z schjetne: beach: no, that was only docstrings and lambda lists
2015-05-14T08:02:12Z White_Flame: Shinmera: it has nothing to do with graphical, etc.  In most programming environments, you are manipulating characters of a giant string, not programming concepts
2015-05-14T08:02:30Z Shinmera: White_Flame: I'm just objecting to your word processing analogy
2015-05-14T08:02:37Z Shinmera: Because word processors suck.
2015-05-14T08:02:45Z White_Flame: Shinmera: that's particular to _documenting_ the source code, not writing it
2015-05-14T08:04:05Z Shinmera: I wouldn't mind having a language like TeX embedded in docstrings to allow more extensive and complex documentation.
2015-05-14T08:04:18Z Shinmera: But I'm also quite sure that someone must've already done that.
2015-05-14T08:04:24Z White_Flame: but you're still editing a string with escaped doublequotes
2015-05-14T08:04:45Z Shinmera: That's a question of the system.
2015-05-14T08:04:55Z White_Flame: and can't refer to other things in the source code easily enough, especially topical documentation that isn't necessary linked to any particular line of code
2015-05-14T08:04:59Z Shinmera: You can easily write tools that'll take care of that part for you, especially in CL.
2015-05-14T08:05:08Z smokeink: emacs can interpret latex in sourcecode comments, if i remember well
2015-05-14T08:05:18Z schjetne: Shinmera: I'm trying desperately to get my business partner to like stupid text files. We've reached a compromise: use Excel to generate stupid text files
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2015-05-14T08:06:18Z Shinmera: schjetne: Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me
2015-05-14T08:06:38Z White_Flame: I still liked ye olde QuickBASIC IDE (didn't really get into Visual Basic, though I presume it lived on there), where it had a window per function, and good keyboard support for bebopping around them, even though the saved file was textual
2015-05-14T08:07:09Z White_Flame: though it also had a faster binary format for saving source code, which had all the indexing and such included
2015-05-14T08:07:23Z schjetne: Shinmera: When it's for key-value or tabular data it's fine, I can live with it. For documents, it's impossible. I've been trying to push Markdown, though. It's much more approachable than LaTeX
2015-05-14T08:07:44Z Shinmera: schjetne: Markdown is horrible.
2015-05-14T08:08:33Z schjetne: With Pandoc it makes nice results, I managed to resurrect a research paper that had been catastrophically screwed over by Word
2015-05-14T08:08:34Z Shinmera: It's way too ambiguous in how it allows you to write things, and way too many important things are implementation dependant.
2015-05-14T08:08:36Z smokeink: how about org-mode
2015-05-14T08:09:55Z schjetne: Org mode appeals to me because I can keep using the same system to manage my workflow to write my docs, but if you don't already do that, it seems like it has the same drawbacks as Markdown
2015-05-14T08:10:24Z schjetne: Has anyone tried Patoline? http://patoline.org/
2015-05-14T08:10:44Z loke: I like my templating language. It's dizzyingly fast, I think
2015-05-14T08:10:55Z schjetne: I think I brought it up last time the issue came up, but I still haven't gotten around to trying it.
2015-05-14T08:11:19Z loke: Running a small template with a handful (3) conditional formattings and generate UTF-8 output for it took 397k clock cyles :-)
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2015-05-14T08:12:59Z Zhivago: The interesting question is -- would anyone care if it were 10 times slower? :)
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2015-05-14T08:13:21Z loke: Well, when running the thing on a server where you have to pay for CPU, every cycle counts :-)
2015-05-14T08:13:50Z Zhivago: I guess that might help someone to care.
2015-05-14T08:14:18Z schjetne: My log parser is a memory hog, I'd definitly care to make it more efficient, if I had the time.
2015-05-14T08:14:28Z loke: Zhivago: I guess I'm mostly enjoying this because it was so easy to get the performance. I compile the template language into CL and run COMPILE on it on initial load. So the template becomes an optimised native function. Trivial to do in CL, kinda difficult in other languages.
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2015-05-14T08:15:23Z loke: Here's the template parser in case anybody cares
2015-05-14T08:15:23Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/blob/master/parser.lisp
2015-05-14T08:16:42Z schjetne: loke: I was thumbing through the PostScript spec, wondering if something similar could be done for PS in CL. Not that I actually need it for a project.
2015-05-14T08:17:15Z beach: loke: Is your templating language related to documentation?
2015-05-14T08:17:29Z loke: beach: I'm using an older version of it as part of Docbrowser
2015-05-14T08:17:36Z loke: the one I linked to is the latest version
2015-05-14T08:18:28Z beach: loke: I just can't tell from what you were saying whether your templating language is at all related to the discussion on documentation.  If it is, could you explain in a few sentences what kind of templates it handles and what they have to do with documentation?
2015-05-14T08:19:01Z Shinmera still needs to add the backlinking feature to Staple
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2015-05-14T08:21:36Z beach thinks that maybe he just doesn't know what a "templating language" is.
2015-05-14T08:22:25Z jackdaniel: huh, I've got help offer from *somebody* with upstreaming u-boot stuff
2015-05-14T08:22:27Z jackdaniel: that's nice
2015-05-14T08:26:56Z loke: beach: It's like most other tamplateing languages like JSP or whatever
2015-05-14T08:27:10Z p_l: jackdaniel: what u-boot stuff?
2015-05-14T08:27:41Z jackdaniel: support for nand on allwinner board
2015-05-14T08:28:07Z p_l: I was thinking more of "how it relates to CL, because it sounds intriguing" :P
2015-05-14T08:28:33Z jackdaniel: oh, no, sorry for that ;D
2015-05-14T08:29:17Z loke: beach: So, it takes a text file containing a temple, it compiles it and returns a funcallable thing that you can call with a set of parameters. When you call it with parameters and a stream it outputs the generated template output to the stream.
2015-05-14T08:31:40Z beach: loke: I found some info on "templating languages".  I think I understand now.  Thanks.
2015-05-14T08:33:48Z schjetne: On a much less related note of embedding documentation in various places, I wonder if Magit can be adapted to accept and render Org mode commit messages. It would be nice to be able to make hyperlinks to things, but it wouldn't be portable.
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2015-05-14T10:02:49Z hitecnologys: loke: heh.
2015-05-14T10:03:32Z hitecnologys: loke: I expected somebody would say that.
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2015-05-14T10:25:56Z loke: hitecnologys: say what?
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2015-05-14T10:27:16Z hitecnologys: loke: about forth.
2015-05-14T10:28:42Z loke: ah
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2015-05-14T10:30:46Z kephra: loke, do you have some example templates for this code?
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2015-05-14T10:31:30Z loke: kephra: The old version, yes: https://github.com/lokedhs/docbrowser/blob/master/src/template/show_package.tmpl
2015-05-14T10:32:08Z loke: The new version has much more capabilites (includes, subtemplates, complex expressions etc.), but the code that uses it is not public yet.
2015-05-14T10:33:03Z kephra: *nice*
2015-05-14T10:33:42Z loke: So yeah, you have the template implementation available to you, but no complex examples right now
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2015-05-14T10:53:44Z protist: froggey: how is performance in Mezzano coming along?
2015-05-14T10:53:44Z minion: protist, memo from pjb: unique -> remove-duplicates
2015-05-14T10:53:44Z minion: protist, memo from pjb: to make it conforming, you will have to use a code walker.  You should not test for specific operators such as system:backquote, but for special-operator-p and use macro-expand.
2015-05-14T10:53:44Z minion: protist, memo from pjb: but actually, you can just do: http://paste.lisp.org/+36C4
2015-05-14T10:54:05Z protist: pjb: thank you!!! :D
2015-05-14T10:54:19Z protist: pjb: perfect!
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2015-05-14T10:56:00Z protist: pjb: trying to wrap my head around that code now :)
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2015-05-14T11:03:06Z protist: pjb: ah beautiful
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2015-05-14T11:03:15Z protist: pjb: but that does incur more performance overhead
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2015-05-14T11:13:25Z protist: for everyone....pjb just fixed my macro...it is now conformant: https://github.com/GordianNaught/Function-Literal
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2015-05-14T11:22:17Z wbooze: :help
2015-05-14T11:22:20Z wbooze: ups
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2015-05-14T11:28:29Z wbooze: say hello
2015-05-14T11:28:41Z jdz: i refuse
2015-05-14T11:28:44Z wbooze: hello
2015-05-14T11:28:55Z wbooze: hello denizens of #lisp
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2015-05-14T11:30:11Z Xach: protist: normally one would write #'1+
2015-05-14T11:30:33Z protist: Xach: good point :)
2015-05-14T11:31:05Z protist: Xach: it can also be used to make constant functions and for list building like in LoL
2015-05-14T11:31:34Z protist: Xach: #f`(prefix . ,%)
2015-05-14T11:31:52Z protist: Xach: nice for little currying type things
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2015-05-14T11:32:47Z Xach: normally one would use CONSTANTLY for constant functions
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2015-05-14T11:36:26Z jackdaniel: well, syntactic sugar isn't a bad thing, I wonder tough why you use license of such crude name?
2015-05-14T11:36:57Z protist: Xach: always learning new things here :)
2015-05-14T11:38:02Z protist: Xach: occassionally an argument isn't worth naming if the function isn't :p
2015-05-14T11:38:26Z protist: jackdaniel: ah sorry...I just like the terms
2015-05-14T11:38:44Z protist: jackdaniel: don't want to limit anyone in any fashion when I use that
2015-05-14T11:39:11Z jackdaniel: afaik this license allows you to change a name of the license preserving the terms
2015-05-14T11:39:34Z protist: jackdaniel: true, but this name is known
2015-05-14T11:39:47Z jackdaniel: I'm just afraid, that when I'll have children, and I'll want them to use open stuff, they'll see a lot of fucks out there
2015-05-14T11:39:53Z protist: jackdaniel: and Public Domain isn't defined everwhere...and may have varying definitions
2015-05-14T11:40:20Z protist: jackdaniel: I'm not worried about a word hurting them...but I see your point
2015-05-14T11:40:29Z jackdaniel: i think mit is also valid license and i'm not sure, what it's prohibitions are
2015-05-14T11:40:42Z protist: jackdaniel: something about attribution or credit I think?
2015-05-14T11:41:20Z protist: jackdaniel: LGPL makes people provide the source of the peice when they distribute or something
2015-05-14T11:41:37Z protist: jackdaniel: Creative [something] makes them give credit
2015-05-14T11:41:45Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why I mentioned mit
2015-05-14T11:42:10Z protist: jackdaniel: there was one liscense I heard of similar to WTFPL that gives credit as well...but the terms read like a joke
2015-05-14T11:42:17Z jackdaniel: anyway, your choice, just dislike using curses in sourcecode, is it "shit" or "fuck"
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2015-05-14T11:42:33Z protist: jackdaniel: something like "I give the free of charge to do with as you please to the detriment of my posterity"
2015-05-14T11:42:37Z protist: this*
2015-05-14T11:43:22Z protist: jackdaniel: if you find another /commonly recognized/ license with identical allowances let me know
2015-05-14T11:43:26Z wbooze: To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
2015-05-14T11:43:32Z protist: jackdaniel: I completely get what you are saying
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2015-05-14T11:46:38Z protist: jackdaniel: I'm actually maybe more concerned about the website detailing WTFPL being slightly political when discussing the philosophy
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2015-05-14T11:59:42Z Xach: protist: I am a little concerned that you are adding projects without knowing what's available
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2015-05-14T12:02:25Z protist: Xach: we can let that one sit a few days to see if anyone says it is the same as something
2015-05-14T12:04:31Z Xach: protist: I mean things like #'1+ and constantly, too
2015-05-14T12:04:44Z protist: Xach: and yeah...That is a good point. I didn't know about constantly
2015-05-14T12:04:59Z protist: Xach: I did know of 1+...just didn't think of it when writing that example
2015-05-14T12:05:33Z protist: Xach: I have seen similar things in LoL and On Lisp...so I don't think it is just me that uses lambda sugar
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2015-05-14T12:05:43Z protist: Xach: is also standard in Clojure
2015-05-14T12:06:08Z Xach: I think both of those books are not good and I don't use Clojure.
2015-05-14T12:07:11Z Xach: LoL less good than On Lisp
2015-05-14T12:07:36Z jackdaniel: which lol?
2015-05-14T12:07:38Z protist: Xach: LoL's was less general than #f
2015-05-14T12:07:42Z protist: jackdaniel: Let over Lambda
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2015-05-14T12:08:18Z protist: Xach: On Lisp had some sort of read macro for constant functions if I remember right....probably mostly as an example
2015-05-14T12:08:47Z protist: Xach: your word is final...I do think some people would use it
2015-05-14T12:09:04Z mood: protist: You could just use CC0, the Creative Commons version of public domain, instead of WTFPL
2015-05-14T12:09:20Z protist: Xach: I had a version of this before I knew how to use Quicklisp :p
2015-05-14T12:09:42Z jackdaniel: protist: I'd think about trying to contribute your example to CL21
2015-05-14T12:10:03Z jackdaniel: your utility°
2015-05-14T12:10:37Z protist: jackdaniel: interesting project...I think the standard is important, though
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2015-05-14T12:10:50Z protist: jackdaniel: is CL21 yours?
2015-05-14T12:10:52Z jackdaniel: it doesn't break a standard, it does excatly what you did
2015-05-14T12:11:00Z jackdaniel: no, I don't even use it ^_^
2015-05-14T12:11:07Z jackdaniel: but your utility fits there imho
2015-05-14T12:12:24Z protist: jackdaniel: ah, that looks cool :)
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2015-05-14T12:12:32Z protist: jackdaniel: yeah it would :)
2015-05-14T12:12:37Z protist: jackdaniel: I'll look into that
2015-05-14T12:12:52Z Xach: protist: I don't exclude things just because I think they're dumb or poorly executed
2015-05-14T12:12:58Z protist: jackdaniel: don't necessarilly want it tied exclusively to it though
2015-05-14T12:13:05Z jackdaniel: and it would be more condense to keep things in appropriate libs - like widely agreed utils in alexandria
2015-05-14T12:13:10Z Xach: protist: that means that authors must exercise some taste before requesting something be added
2015-05-14T12:13:17Z jackdaniel: then having separate package for each utility
2015-05-14T12:13:54Z jackdaniel: than°
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2015-05-14T12:14:29Z Xach: protist: named-readtables is also a normal way to enable or disable reader syntax
2015-05-14T12:14:42Z Xach: protist: making the change directly and immediately is uncommon
2015-05-14T12:15:19Z protist: Xach: then I'll withdraw my request...at least until I have cleaned it with more proper readtables...and have given more thought to it and if it should be part of something else
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2015-05-14T12:17:37Z Xach: there is some feedback on the issue
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2015-05-14T12:19:15Z protist: Xach: yeah looking at that
2015-05-14T12:19:20Z protist: Xach: checking out that package too
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2015-05-14T12:19:39Z protist: Xach: odd that it steps on something that seems to be used for comments #|
2015-05-14T12:20:19Z Xach: protist: it is a lowercase L
2015-05-14T12:20:43Z Xach: #l(foo !2 !1) → (lambda (x y) (foo y x))
2015-05-14T12:22:30Z protist: Xach: #<PACKAGE HU.DWIM.SYNTAX-SUGAR> has no external symbol with name "ENABLE-SHARP-L-SYNTAX"
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2015-05-14T12:22:38Z protist: Xach: trying to test it out
2015-05-14T12:22:53Z protist: Xach: (hu.dwim.syntax-sugar:enable-sharp-l-syntax)?
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2015-05-14T12:23:45Z Xach: I don't use it, I don't know how it is enabled.
2015-05-14T12:24:37Z protist: ah that is what the person on github suggested
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2015-05-14T12:29:58Z flip214: Xach: current fiveam has too many empty lines in the explain output (again)
2015-05-14T12:30:12Z flip214: current as in fetched-via-ql
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2015-05-14T12:33:40Z Xach: flip214: I don't know what that means.
2015-05-14T12:35:51Z Xach finds himself wishing for quicklisp-wide greplike functionality
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2015-05-14T12:39:01Z froggey: protist: I've not focused on performance directly, but I did make the GC run much less which has had a big impact. build times on my computer have gone from 2 hours to ~20 minutes
2015-05-14T12:39:55Z flip214: Xach: please see http://paste.lisp.org/display/148251. I believe that the empty lines inbetween should be removed, and I'm fairly sure that the same issue popped up 2 years ago or so.
2015-05-14T12:40:03Z protist: froggey: building what?
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2015-05-14T12:40:30Z froggey: the whole system, including supporting libraries
2015-05-14T12:40:35Z Xach: flip214: ok. i don't work on fiveam, though, so i can't help with the amount of space it outputs
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2015-05-14T12:41:25Z flip214: last time (ie. 2 years ago) you patched your QL distribution, because fiveam looked stagnant...
2015-05-14T12:41:49Z protist: froggey: I am a littl confused at how the build time affects the run time, or how they are related
2015-05-14T12:41:51Z Xach: flip214: i did not do that.
2015-05-14T12:41:52Z protist: little*
2015-05-14T12:41:56Z protist: as*
2015-05-14T12:42:05Z Xach: flip214: I get fiveam from common-lisp.net
2015-05-14T12:42:11Z protist: as to**
2015-05-14T12:42:35Z Xach: flip214: it is possible my memory is faulty, so if you can provide more information, maybe I will remember it, but at the moment I don't think I've ever done anything to fiveam
2015-05-14T12:42:44Z froggey: all the libraries and half the system are built on mezzano
2015-05-14T12:43:37Z protist: froggey: ah! nice :D
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2015-05-14T12:44:43Z Xach: flip214: the last change in fiveam seems to be from 2013
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2015-05-14T12:45:42Z flip214: yeah, that was the reason you patched your local fiveam...
2015-05-14T12:45:47Z flip214: thanks for your patience, BTW!
2015-05-14T12:46:52Z Xach: flip214: I have never done that.
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2015-05-14T12:47:29Z Xach: Occasionally, wearing my project foster parent hat, I add projects to the sharplispers organization. But when wearing my Quicklisp hat, I never patch up projects to fix problems.
2015-05-14T12:49:50Z flip214: Well, I was fairly sure that QL provided a fix. But never mind, thank you!
2015-05-14T12:50:00Z splittist: Xach: if you created a tag table file for the quicklisp files (of interest) you could use the various emacs tags search functions
2015-05-14T12:51:39Z Xach: flip214: I am philosophically opposed to such things
2015-05-14T12:52:50Z Xach: splittist: how accurate are emacs tags for cl sources, i wonder?
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2015-05-14T12:55:11Z jackdaniel: Xach: they work great (at least for ECL mixed C/lisp sources)
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2015-05-14T12:56:55Z Xach: problem 2: i don't know any tags commands
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2015-05-14T12:58:01Z jackdaniel: M-. is search for a tag, M-x tags-search is grepping on tagged files (regexps)
2015-05-14T12:58:19Z jackdaniel: M-, is 'ala continue when searching
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2015-05-14T12:59:59Z splittist: Xach: all you want is a list of files. Emacs can do the regexping stuff.
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2015-05-14T13:02:51Z splittist: It's a SMOP to write your own TAGS file from asdf/quicklisp file listings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctags#Etags_2
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2015-05-14T13:03:48Z Xach: i really want this wired up to the web, too
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2015-05-14T13:10:11Z splittist: Xach: what would an invocation look like, and what sort of results would you like to see?
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2015-05-14T13:11:46Z Xach: type "enable-sharp-l" and see what project/file defines it instantly-ish
2015-05-14T13:11:54Z Xach: that's a substring
2015-05-14T13:12:57Z Xach also wants an lxr for the quicklisp universe
2015-05-14T13:13:29Z jackdaniel: linux cross reference? ^_^
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2015-05-14T13:14:15Z eudoxia: Xach: i was thinking about doing something like that, by extending docparser to store every form it documents. then you can display an API reference for each package, where the source code forms are parsed and symbols are made into hyperlinks to the corresponding symbols in corresponding packages
2015-05-14T13:14:32Z Xach: cool!
2015-05-14T13:14:39Z eudoxia: basically, like quickdocs, but you click "show code" and you can follow hyperlinks in the source code
2015-05-14T13:14:51Z Xach: jackdaniel: htmlized and fully cross-referenced sources for every quicklisp project
2015-05-14T13:15:08Z eudoxia: yeah, i think that would be quite doable
2015-05-14T13:15:35Z Xach: so many doable things remain undone :)
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2015-05-14T13:51:15Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-14T14:35:14Z PuercoPop: eudoxia: like sourcegraph?
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2015-05-14T14:36:17Z eudoxia: PuercoPop: kind of, probably
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2015-05-14T14:36:28Z eudoxia: more like doxygen but for all QL projects taken together
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2015-05-14T14:44:06Z gniourf: where is the package clisp in debian jessie?
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2015-05-14T14:47:52Z wbooze: hello
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2015-05-14T14:54:18Z jackdaniel: gniourf: it didn't got in due to stall version numbers (at least that's what I've heard)
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2015-05-14T14:58:51Z gniourf: oh
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2015-05-14T14:59:01Z gniourf: that sucks
2015-05-14T14:59:10Z gniourf: :(
2015-05-14T14:59:15Z jackdaniel: but I'm partially deaf, so I might heard something wrong
2015-05-14T14:59:20Z jackdaniel: they look for maintainer tough
2015-05-14T14:59:30Z jackdaniel: not debian jessie, clisp
2015-05-14T14:59:40Z gniourf: yeah :)
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2015-05-14T15:00:06Z gniourf: but it is in sid
2015-05-14T15:00:48Z jackdaniel: then idk why
2015-05-14T15:02:10Z gniourf: I found this: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2ery81/clisp_removed_from_debian_testing/
2015-05-14T15:02:18Z gniourf: it confirms what you're saying
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2015-05-14T15:03:39Z gniourf: so when you have some clisp bytecode on debian jessie: you're screwed!
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2015-05-14T15:33:20Z foom: they don't remove packages for having stalled version numbers.
2015-05-14T15:33:39Z foom: debian removes packages from the releases because they are broken
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2015-05-14T15:36:33Z foom: https://packages.qa.debian.org/c/clisp.html shows what it needs in order to be reintroduced into the next release.
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2015-05-14T17:47:28Z loz1: hi guys, is there any modern library for message-passing preemptive threads?
2015-05-14T17:48:07Z dim: loz1: I use lparallel and its queueing implementation (lparallel.queue) and am quite happy about that
2015-05-14T17:48:30Z dim: see http://lparallel.org/ and http://lparallel.org/api/queues/
2015-05-14T17:49:02Z dim: my code examples are burried into pgloader internal APIs, not sure how much it would help you really
2015-05-14T17:50:29Z loz1: dim: i'm watching at it right now, thanks)
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2015-05-14T18:02:28Z shka_: lparallel is really good
2015-05-14T18:03:32Z dim: it's in the "I don't miss Erlang" range ;-)
2015-05-14T18:04:00Z ktt9: oh! it's really reallyt good, then
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2015-05-14T18:17:27Z dim: well tbh I'm yet to try lfarm which is the distributed parts
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2015-05-14T18:20:18Z _death: now too long ago I tried writing something with lparallel, but it was flaky for some reason.. so I ended up writing it in Go heh.. anyway, I had good experience with pzmq
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2015-05-14T18:24:33Z _death: it was a tool to crawl mhonarc archives.. more specifically, http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/ .. which may be of interest to people here ;).. anyway, I ended up making it into an nndoc-readable file so I can read it using gnus
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2015-05-14T18:49:39Z fjames: hey
2015-05-14T18:49:47Z fjames: is anyone interested in gss authentication
2015-05-14T18:49:49Z fjames: specicially kerberos
2015-05-14T18:50:15Z fjames: I've been writing a kerberos implementation and its getting close to completion
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2015-05-14T18:50:42Z hitecnologys: I'm bad with naming things. May I ask you, people, to help me with naming STM-based concurrency toolkit which is going to include task scheduler, workers pool and some other useful stuff which I haven't thought of yet (the first one is in the process of refactoring and improving and the second one is basically done)?
2015-05-14T18:51:16Z hitecnologys: I was considering cl-concurrency or cl-concurrent or clcurrent or even clcurrency.
2015-05-14T18:51:24Z hitecnologys: But those sound like really bad ones.
2015-05-14T18:51:32Z Bike: sounds like bees.
2015-05-14T18:51:38Z hitecnologys: Bees?
2015-05-14T18:52:00Z Bike: Like worker bees. You could pick something silly and slightly more colorful. HiveTask!
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2015-05-14T18:52:07Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-05-14T18:52:19Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I probably could. Good idea.
2015-05-14T18:52:28Z hitecnologys: cl-hive, maybe?
2015-05-14T18:52:45Z hitecnologys: No-no-no, bad hitecnologys.
2015-05-14T18:52:50Z Bike: plus we already have about a trillion things with cl-, and it's kind of weird, i mean, who ever heard of c-postscript or something
2015-05-14T18:53:04Z hitecnologys: Right.
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2015-05-14T18:55:42Z hitecnologys: I have a series of libraries being worked on called (task-name)it. e.g. deployit is library for managing deployment of applications and backupit is an interface for doing backups. Maybe I could go with something like beehiveit? Does that sound horrible?
2015-05-14T18:56:19Z hitecnologys: That would probably be confusing, though. =P
2015-05-14T18:56:33Z Bike: going by the theme i would briefly think it was beekeeping management software, yeah
2015-05-14T18:57:03Z hitecnologys: Maybe I should just pick HiveTask...
2015-05-14T18:57:15Z H4ns: hive-task
2015-05-14T18:57:19Z Bike: well, you can always change it later
2015-05-14T18:57:32Z H4ns: Bike: "right, that won't be confusing at all"
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2015-05-14T18:57:40Z Bike: ok yeah.
2015-05-14T18:57:50Z hitecnologys: Yeah, changing a name is bad practice.
2015-05-14T18:58:08Z hitecnologys: Not only because it breaks stuff but because it's very confusing.
2015-05-14T18:58:29Z hitecnologys: Hive-task doesn't seem to be taken.
2015-05-14T18:58:50Z hitecnologys: I'd go with that if nobody minds (i.e. has similar name for something else).
2015-05-14T18:59:02Z H4ns: "hive-task", not "Hive-task"
2015-05-14T18:59:29Z hitecnologys: H4ns: of course, I just capitalized it as it was beginning of a sentence.
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2015-05-14T19:00:45Z hitecnologys: Alright, thanks for help H4ns and Bike.
2015-05-14T19:01:15Z hitecnologys: By the way, your nicks have identical coloring in my weechat.
2015-05-14T19:01:51Z H4ns: can't help with that
2015-05-14T19:01:59Z Bike: must be confusing with the lengths.
2015-05-14T19:02:10Z hitecnologys: Yeah...
2015-05-14T19:02:53Z hitecnologys: Anyway, back to coding.
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2015-05-14T19:04:06Z bizarrefish: Hia ll
2015-05-14T19:04:09Z bizarrefish: *hi all
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2015-05-14T19:15:22Z drmeister: Do you call the relationship between fixnum and its super-types?   fixnum, integer, rational, real, number, t ?     Is it a "type-hierarchy"?
2015-05-14T19:15:48Z drmeister: Sorry:   "What do you call the relationship ..."
2015-05-14T19:16:38Z Bike: clhs page on fixnum just says "Supertypes:"
2015-05-14T19:17:06Z Bike: it's not really as simple as a class precedence list is, since the set of types that are strict subtypes of fixnum is infinite and not ordered
2015-05-14T19:17:10Z dim: clhs double-precision
2015-05-14T19:17:10Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for double-precision.
2015-05-14T19:17:18Z Bike: clhs double-float
2015-05-14T19:17:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm
2015-05-14T19:17:19Z Bike: ?
2015-05-14T19:17:26Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm is what I was searching for yeah
2015-05-14T19:17:27Z dim: thanks
2015-05-14T19:17:37Z dim: to answer to https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/232
2015-05-14T19:17:51Z dim: where apparently the MS SQL driver is sending integers as double-floats
2015-05-14T19:17:59Z dim: I'd like to know why/how :(
2015-05-14T19:18:04Z Bike: niiiiice.
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2015-05-14T19:18:48Z dim: am I right that CL will never use the d0 notation for an integer or a fixnum?
2015-05-14T19:19:09Z Bike: Yes. d## means a double-float.
2015-05-14T19:19:25Z dim: what I had understood, thanks for confirmation
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2015-05-14T19:19:57Z dim: I really want to have the time some day to just implement those database protocols in pure CL and stop the CFFI madness around poorly written drivers
2015-05-14T19:20:57Z dim: either the time or the money to pay someone to do it, someone who finds hacking binary and proprietary network protocols fun
2015-05-14T19:21:00Z Bike: hm, if you happen to be using one of the float format directives somewhere, it does look like it coerces rationals to singles. that's probably not it, though
2015-05-14T19:21:44Z dim: I use princ-to-string when dealing with floats to remove the d0 notation
2015-05-14T19:22:53Z Bike: oh, like, you print it and remove the trailing exponent. i guess that works
2015-05-14T19:24:16Z dim: I do that when a float is expected
2015-05-14T19:24:41Z dim: apparently I should also do that when an integer is expected and the mssql driver is in use, or somehow double check that assumption
2015-05-14T19:25:00Z dim: the catalog data type and what the driver returns is a surprising matrix
2015-05-14T19:25:46Z dim: I find cffi to be a pain in CL really
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2015-05-14T19:31:06Z Xach loves good solutions in pure cl
2015-05-14T19:33:57Z dim: do you also happen to like implementing binary/proprietary network protocols? ;-)
2015-05-14T19:34:35Z dim: I'm thinking e.g. SSL/TLS/MS SQL/Oracle/DB2 here
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2015-05-14T19:37:58Z Xach: dim: i like it more when other people do it and do a great job!
2015-05-14T19:38:14Z Xach has done a tiny bit with ttf and png files
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2015-05-14T19:40:38Z dim: and db3
2015-05-14T19:40:47Z dim: Xach: same as me then ;-)
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2015-05-14T19:56:56Z akkad: Xach is there anything in pure cl like AllegroCache?
2015-05-14T19:57:56Z Xach: akkad: nothing that complete, as far as i know
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2015-05-14T19:59:53Z akkad: cl-store it is
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2015-05-14T20:00:36Z dim: manardb?
2015-05-14T20:00:38Z Xach: vivace graph is a graph database, but it's not highly polished
2015-05-14T20:01:11Z Xach: i think the name is meant to allude to allegro graph
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2015-05-14T20:01:45Z dim: http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/index.html
2015-05-14T20:02:07Z dim: last I looked it was the most promising cl db project I found
2015-05-14T20:02:21Z dim: which means... about nothing, it's not even an opinion... but well
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2015-05-14T20:05:48Z dim: oh, and about my dislike of CFFI: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226 and https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/229 are some of my data points
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2015-05-14T20:12:39Z Xach: is that CFFI specifically or FFI and dealing with foreign libraries in general?
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2015-05-14T20:14:20Z dim: Foreign libs in general
2015-05-14T20:14:52Z dim: foreign libs + starting from custom binary images + finding them on the os, I would say
2015-05-14T20:14:56Z Xach: yeah
2015-05-14T20:15:00Z Xach: it's rough
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2015-05-14T20:15:22Z dim: I'd like to understand what is so complex about it to boot
2015-05-14T20:16:18Z dim: I mean in C you just dlopen() and have the application manage PATHs where to look for the .so they want to open, apparently in Go and Rust it's dead easy to use a C coded lib, I just don't get what is hard here
2015-05-14T20:16:52Z oGMo: dim: it's more than the linker does all the work and complains if it doesn't find your symbols .. how often do you run binaries that weren't compiled for your system?
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2015-05-14T20:17:20Z dim: I don't, my users do
2015-05-14T20:17:24Z oGMo: they don't dlopen(), they're resolved by the dynamic linker, which will likewise complain if you're missing something
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2015-05-14T20:17:32Z dim: maybe I am just bad at packaging
2015-05-14T20:17:40Z dim: I know I am for RHEL, for instance
2015-05-14T20:17:48Z Bike: sbcl uses dlopen, iirc...
2015-05-14T20:18:04Z oGMo: well in this case the CL should probably be checking the library it opens against the version it expects
2015-05-14T20:18:23Z dim: my current plan is to invest some time into docker and offer a docker image for running pgloader, all included
2015-05-14T20:18:50Z dim: it makes me sad because save-lisp-and-die is exactly all I want to need, and baring those foreign libs it would be
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2015-05-14T20:22:55Z dim: anyway, gn!
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2015-05-14T20:32:06Z loz1: is there any method in clos to compare objects?
2015-05-14T20:33:52Z Bike: Sort? Equate?
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2015-05-14T20:35:09Z loz1: Bike: i was thinking to override equal
2015-05-14T20:35:17Z loz1: for my classes
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2015-05-14T20:35:46Z Bike: well, no, there isn't. usually you only really need to define a specific equality function, i.e. you don't need the same function to compare numbers and your objects.
2015-05-14T20:36:09Z loz1: guess you a right
2015-05-14T20:36:17Z loz1: are*
2015-05-14T20:39:16Z loz1: and is there any way to get all objects of a certain class?
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2015-05-14T20:56:00Z Xach: there's gotta be. i wonder if it's standardized.
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2015-05-14T20:59:23Z oleo: oh man
2015-05-14T20:59:47Z oleo: i rendered a .ps image once and copied the pixmap contents once and i forgot how i did .... meh :/
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2015-05-14T23:01:50Z veckon: When I have a generic function whose methods satisfy the convention of specializing their type only on the first argument of the method (all other specializers could be ignored), is there an efficient way to leverage the MOP to determine whether or not some instance of an object has an applicable method, without necessarily computing every applicable method for that generic function?
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2015-05-14T23:03:54Z Adlai: clhs find-method
2015-05-14T23:03:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_m.htm
2015-05-14T23:04:19Z Adlai: find-method will not necessarily call compute-applicable-methods :P
2015-05-14T23:04:29Z Adlai: (although it won't necessarily not)
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2015-05-14T23:10:53Z veckon: That requires computing the lambda list of the generic function, which is definitely something I want to elide.
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2015-05-14T23:25:02Z Bike: compute applicable method does not
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