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2015-05-11T03:05:34Z akkad: is there an alternative to this in format? values (\"~A\",\"~A\",\"~A\",\"~A\",\"~A\")"
2015-05-11T03:18:20Z loke: Hello Lisp
2015-05-11T03:18:38Z loke: akkad: What are you trying to do?
2015-05-11T03:19:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: akkad, Yes, but it's terrible and I don't even understand it. (format t "(~{~#[~;\"~a\"~;\"~a\" and \"~a\"~:;~@{\"~a\"~#[~;, ~:;, ~]~}~]~})" '(1 2 3 4 5 6))
2015-05-11T03:23:14Z PuercoPop: Petit_Dejeuner: if you want to print the items on a list (format t "~{ ~A~^,~}" '(1 2 3)) would suffice
2015-05-11T03:25:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: That seems a lot better.
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2015-05-11T03:25:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: I tried to write mine from scratch, but just ended up going for an example from PCL.
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2015-05-11T03:25:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: ~^ is neat
2015-05-11T03:25:49Z akkad: oh was not sure if the printer had a ~ equivalent for a quoted double quote
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2015-05-11T03:33:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-11T03:35:40Z loke: Hello beach
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2015-05-11T03:38:35Z loke: I'm looking through my piuctures if I can find a beach photo I've taken here
2015-05-11T03:38:39Z loke: Just in honour of you
2015-05-11T03:39:00Z beach: I feel very honored.
2015-05-11T03:40:16Z loke: Seems I haven't been at the beach in a while :-)
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2015-05-11T03:40:50Z beach: It's too hot there anyway.
2015-05-11T03:41:21Z loke: I didn't have one from here, but I did take one nearby
2015-05-11T03:41:38Z loke: i
2015-05-11T03:41:39Z loke: i
2015-05-11T03:41:42Z loke: https://plus.google.com/+EliasMartenson/posts/dPsDjD53RCd?pid=6147453834229168562&oid=115209488640908180409
2015-05-11T03:41:45Z loke: There
2015-05-11T03:41:48Z loke: for you, beach
2015-05-11T03:42:24Z beach: Very nice!  Thank you.
2015-05-11T03:42:48Z loke: beach: do you live near a beach?
2015-05-11T03:43:07Z beach: Not really.  45 minutes drive to Arcachon.
2015-05-11T03:43:34Z loke: Oh france
2015-05-11T03:43:36Z loke: Nice
2015-05-11T03:44:06Z beach: Yes, still a very good place to live.
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2015-05-11T03:45:09Z loke: My location is 6PH57VJ3+
2015-05-11T03:46:03Z beach: I know where you are, I think.
2015-05-11T03:47:22Z loke: http://plus.codes/6PH57VH3+
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2015-05-11T03:51:20Z beach: jackdaniel: What was the consensus on the FORMAT issue?
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2015-05-11T03:53:34Z pillton: G'day everyone.
2015-05-11T03:53:51Z beach: Hello pillton!
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2015-05-11T04:18:03Z loke: Hello pillton
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2015-05-11T04:18:20Z loke: I gave beach a beach picture
2015-05-11T04:18:25Z loke: pillton: here's yours: https://s.yimg.com/os/publish-images/news/2014-11-27/b284ece0-764e-11e4-ad7d-d19264305693_pills.jpg
2015-05-11T04:19:05Z loke: And jackdaniel of course: http://mobileadvertisingwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Native-Ad-Storytelling-Jack-Daniels-Gives-It-a-Shot.jpg
2015-05-11T04:19:42Z mbuf: is there any lisp dialect (non-JVM) that can generate JavaScript for use in web development?
2015-05-11T04:20:03Z pillton: loke: Haha
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2015-05-11T04:21:10Z loke: mbuf: There is Clojurescript
2015-05-11T04:21:13Z loke: I'm using it
2015-05-11T04:21:34Z loke: Or, ther is Parenscript
2015-05-11T04:22:27Z loke: Parenscript is a Common Lisp library that allows you to write Javascript in a Common Lisp form. I use it too, but only for generating my CouchDB indexes (which are written in Javascript).
2015-05-11T04:22:43Z mbuf: loke, I see
2015-05-11T04:23:35Z mbuf: is there a recommended web framework in Lisp (in the likes of Ruby on Rails) with support for javascript, form helpers etc.?
2015-05-11T04:23:41Z loke: Clojurescript and Parenscript are very different, both conceptually and practically. It all depends on your use case. The fact that I'm using them both in the same project should be proof enough for that.
2015-05-11T04:25:43Z loke: mbuf: form helpers and stuff? I dunno. I mostly write my own helpers for that stuff. I have written a high performance templating library that does as much as I need. For more complex stuff I let the client side interact purely with a ajax-style API
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2015-05-11T04:27:59Z mbuf: loke, okay
2015-05-11T04:29:26Z loke: This is the one I'm using. I'ts very much tailored exactly to my needs, so I haven't documented it much.
2015-05-11T04:29:27Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn
2015-05-11T04:30:33Z loke: It was originally written to be used for my docbrowser project, so you can see examples for a (very much) older version here:
2015-05-11T04:31:33Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/docbrowser/blob/master/src/template/show_package.tmpl
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2015-05-11T04:33:14Z freehck: hello everybody
2015-05-11T04:33:41Z freehck: is there some system in quicklisp for symbolic operations?
2015-05-11T04:34:00Z freehck: I'd like to take a derivative by fly in my program.
2015-05-11T04:35:57Z beach: freehck: Maxima should be able to do that, but I don't know whether it is available through Quicklisp.
2015-05-11T04:36:35Z freehck: oh, is maxima written with common lisp?
2015-05-11T04:36:41Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-11T04:36:47Z freehck: thanks
2015-05-11T04:38:06Z loke: freehck: beach is assuming that you meant "symbolic maths"
2015-05-11T04:38:13Z loke: freehck: Is that what you meant?
2015-05-11T04:38:26Z loke: Because Lisp is all about symbolic "computations"
2015-05-11T04:39:36Z Bike: well, symbolic differentiation, so presumably yes
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2015-05-11T04:39:44Z beach: loke: "derivative" was mentioned, so I think it is a safe assumption.
2015-05-11T04:40:00Z loke: Ah, sorry. Missed that.
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2015-05-11T04:52:06Z kami: Good morning
2015-05-11T04:53:22Z freehck: loke: I specifically meant symbolic maths.
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2015-05-11T05:07:05Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-05-11T05:07:41Z Nate_Bradley: is lisp still used?
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2015-05-11T05:09:29Z Bike: yeah
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2015-05-11T05:10:00Z Nate_Bradley: like in what?
2015-05-11T05:10:26Z H4ns: in programming
2015-05-11T05:10:39Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-05-11T05:12:55Z drmeister: I took a little detour today to do get my C++ source-to-source translation using Common Lisp working.
2015-05-11T05:13:54Z drmeister: I needed to transform a lot of expressions like:  _sym_STARenvironmentPrintingTabSTAR->symbolValue().as<Fixnum_O>()->get()     to     unbox_fixnum(_sym_STARenvironmentPrintingTabSTAR->symbolValue().as<Fixnum_O>())
2015-05-11T05:14:26Z drmeister: Convert stupid C++ member function to normal functional notation because you can't dereference an immediate value.
2015-05-11T05:15:09Z beach: Nate_Bradley: “Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and Ecommerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.â
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2015-05-11T05:15:36Z beach: Nate_Bradley: From Kent Pitman.
2015-05-11T05:16:36Z Nate_Bradley: thanks beach
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2015-05-11T05:18:49Z drmeister: It was either that or ... convert 650 of them by hand or ... wait two years for C++17 to incorporate "Uniform call syntax"
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2015-05-11T05:20:37Z beach: Nate_Bradley: Are you interested in learning Common Lisp?
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2015-05-11T05:23:25Z Nate_Bradley: i am
2015-05-11T05:23:37Z Nate_Bradley: i am interested in becoming a programmer, but i am really bad at math and i lack logic
2015-05-11T05:23:42Z Nate_Bradley: in other words, i'm an artist
2015-05-11T05:24:51Z beach: Common Lisp doesn't require any more of that than other languages do.
2015-05-11T05:25:08Z pillton: Most artists I know are disciplined. Once you have interest, the discipline will take over.
2015-05-11T05:25:35Z jackdaniel: beach: none ;)
2015-05-11T05:25:53Z beach: minion: Please tell Nate_Bradley about gentle.
2015-05-11T05:25:54Z minion: Nate_Bradley: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2015-05-11T05:26:09Z Nate_Bradley: i love the lisp community
2015-05-11T05:26:13Z Nate_Bradley: you're the nicest guys on here
2015-05-11T05:26:18Z Nate_Bradley: on freenode
2015-05-11T05:26:23Z beach: So they say. :)
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2015-05-11T05:26:32Z jackdaniel 've heard different opionions ^_^
2015-05-11T05:26:38Z Nate_Bradley: why isn't lisp more popular?
2015-05-11T05:26:52Z Zhivago: It is a banking conspiracy.
2015-05-11T05:26:58Z Nate_Bradley: well, i don't know math and i need a calculator to calculate stuff
2015-05-11T05:27:07Z Nate_Bradley: what should i do?
2015-05-11T05:27:16Z jackdaniel: use repl :D
2015-05-11T05:27:24Z Zhivago: You could hire a small child to help you.
2015-05-11T05:27:33Z beach: Nate_Bradley: Look at the link that minion gave you.
2015-05-11T05:28:15Z pjb: Nate_Bradley: also http://cliki.net
2015-05-11T05:28:52Z pjb: Nate_Bradley: http://www.paulgraham.com/iflisp.html
2015-05-11T05:29:28Z beach: Hmm, I have this feeling I am going to have to spend time with this recent problem: CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 5086(tid 140737291515648): Memory fault at f4241f98 (pc=0x1000972283, sp=0x7ffff4241fa0) The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed.
2015-05-11T05:30:23Z pjb: Nate_Bradley: http://www.metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.text
2015-05-11T05:31:17Z Nate_Bradley: thanks guys
2015-05-11T05:31:26Z jackdaniel: pjb: maybe you'll say your opinion on format matter: (format t "~0f" 3.0) ; should print 3.0 or 3. ?
2015-05-11T05:31:27Z Nate_Bradley: i'd like to learn programming, but i'm having problems with logic
2015-05-11T05:31:38Z pjb: 3.0
2015-05-11T05:31:52Z jackdaniel: ok, so we have 3v0 consensus (:
2015-05-11T05:31:53Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-11T05:32:00Z Nate_Bradley: i don't get math formulas and i would like to improve, but i don't have enough intelligence of my own to understand what i need to do :(
2015-05-11T05:32:17Z beach: Nate_Bradley: Like pillton said, the most important thing to be a successful programmer is discipline; to be well organized.
2015-05-11T05:32:26Z Nate_Bradley: oh i lack that
2015-05-11T05:32:38Z Nate_Bradley: :(
2015-05-11T05:32:45Z pjb: TO get 3. you would use ~,0F
2015-05-11T05:32:46Z beach: It can be learned, thankfully.
2015-05-11T05:32:53Z Bike: what are you doing to get that corruption warning, beach?
2015-05-11T05:33:03Z beach: Bike: Bootstrapping SICL.
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2015-05-11T05:33:37Z beach: Bike: It shouldn't happen.  I am not doing anything with low safety levels or anything with FFI.
2015-05-11T05:33:38Z jackdaniel: pjb: that's also my understanding of spec, just got confused by implementations behaviour
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2015-05-11T05:33:51Z Bike: strange.
2015-05-11T05:34:28Z beach: Yeah.  I'll investigate a bit more to narrow it down some more.
2015-05-11T05:36:23Z pjb: 22.3.3.1 says: If the parameter d is omitted, then there is no constraint on the number of digits to appear after the decimal point. … except that if the fraction tobe printed is zero, then a single zero digit should appear after the decimla point …
2015-05-11T05:36:55Z pjb: The width constraints are removed by w=0 and no overflowchar.
2015-05-11T05:37:22Z pjb: jackdaniel: repport bugs (only ccl got it right).
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2015-05-11T11:53:08Z Shinmera: Xach: I just hit a bug in ASDF 3.1.3 that's fixed in 3.1.4 . Which version of ASDF are you intending on shipping with the new Quicklisp?
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2015-05-11T11:57:49Z mood: Shinmera: The blog posts says 3.1.4
2015-05-11T11:58:56Z Shinmera: Ah, ok. Good. I read the google groups page which didn't include that bit.
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2015-05-11T11:59:54Z Shinmera: (for those curious, ASDF:OPERATE when passed an instance of an operation fails with a curious error when it tries to badly recreate the operation object. Usually this doesn't happen because it's called with the operation symbol instead of a direct object.)
2015-05-11T12:00:45Z mood: Xach: quicklisp.org/beta/ needs an update. It says the libraries were last updated on April 7
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2015-05-11T12:09:52Z wwwBUKOLAYcom Click http://www.bukolay.com I Come. Click http://www.bukolay.com I Come. Click http://www.bukolay.com I Come.
2015-05-11T12:09:55Z wwwBUKOLAYcom Click http://www.bukolay.com I Come. Click http://www.bukolay.com I Come. Click http://www.bukolay.com I Come.
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2015-05-11T13:52:09Z oleo: helloo :)
2015-05-11T13:54:02Z jackdaniel: helloo oleoo
2015-05-11T13:54:05Z jackdaniel: :p
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2015-05-11T13:56:35Z Xach: mood: thanks. i fixed it in git but never checked out the website.
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2015-05-11T14:31:21Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-11T14:32:46Z jackdaniel: hi
2015-05-11T14:32:58Z oleo: hello failproofshark
2015-05-11T14:33:02Z oleo: hello jackdaniel
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2015-05-11T14:38:41Z failproofshark: oleo: how are things?
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2015-05-11T15:37:45Z regularfry: Hey all
2015-05-11T15:37:59Z jackdaniel: regularfry: o/
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2015-05-11T15:41:56Z regularfry: Quick (I hope) question: clozure's save-application kills the parent process.  What's the Right Way(tm) to fork() before calling it?
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2015-05-11T15:44:00Z jackdaniel isn't very familiar with CCL
2015-05-11T15:46:08Z regularfry: sbcl has save-lisp-and-die, which has the same limitation
2015-05-11T15:46:27Z jackdaniel: uff, format is tricky
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2015-05-11T15:51:10Z pjb:  regularfry: there's no right way to fork.
2015-05-11T15:52:04Z pjb: regularfry: in general, the problem is that there are multiple threads in implementations like ccl and sbcl.
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2015-05-11T15:52:32Z pjb: regularfry: you could get away with it, by forking from the main thread, and saving the image immediately, but this could still be wacky.
2015-05-11T15:53:32Z pjb: regularfry: I assume, by patching the implementations, one could shut down the threads in an orderly manner, save the image, and restart the threads.
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2015-05-11T15:54:00Z regularfry: I've tried the "obvious thing" of copying how ccl does the forking for ccl:run-program, and yeah, it's a little whacky :-)
2015-05-11T15:54:00Z pjb: regularfry: there is also to consider the open files, the open sockets, etc.
2015-05-11T15:54:19Z regularfry: for the specific case of saving an image, you need to solve that anyway
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2015-05-11T15:54:49Z pjb: regularfry: for example, clisp will save the pathnames to the open file, so it may re-open them when launching the image. But sockets will be closed and you'll get (assumedly handled) errors on sockets when relaunching.
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2015-05-11T15:55:32Z pjb: regularfry: in any case, it's better to save images from processes that have been loaded in a specific way by a specific generate-application.lisp script.
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2015-05-11T15:55:44Z pjb: if only for the reproductibility.
2015-05-11T15:55:58Z regularfry: that's assuming a lot about my usecase :-)
2015-05-11T15:56:04Z pjb: Yes :-)
2015-05-11T15:56:55Z pjb: For user threads, you could program them to be able to "suspend" them for forking.  For the implementation threads, you will definitely have to have a look at the implementation.
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2015-05-11T15:57:30Z regularfry: yeah, sounds like I might have work cut out for me
2015-05-11T15:57:43Z regularfry: thanks anyway :-)
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2015-05-11T17:38:20Z oleo: failproofshark: sorry, had a nap, i was so tired......
2015-05-11T17:38:38Z oleo: failproofshark: all is withing normal bounds.....
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2015-05-11T17:39:09Z oleo: failproofshark: yourself ?
2015-05-11T17:44:30Z failproofshark: oleo: it's all good. I'm doing well on my end
2015-05-11T17:45:15Z oleo: failproofshark: that's good :)
2015-05-11T17:45:45Z oleo: failproofshark: tried devloping some plotting algos yesterday and it's still buggy.....
2015-05-11T17:46:02Z oleo: failproofshark: will deal maybe next weekend
2015-05-11T17:46:35Z failproofshark: ah, that almost done with a project but not quite feeling
2015-05-11T17:47:00Z oleo: failproofshark: no it's all within mcclim only, but still......
2015-05-11T17:47:21Z oleo: failproofshark: the examples i started are from graphics-f.lisp from some clx tutorial....
2015-05-11T17:47:45Z oleo: failproofshark: i adapted that in mcclim, and i can already draw simple profiles of funcs
2015-05-11T17:48:12Z oleo: failproofshark: but still buggy, have todo some more work and changes....
2015-05-11T17:48:48Z oleo: failproofshark: and it's exercise anyway....
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2015-05-11T18:31:17Z Xach: Hmm, for some reason I'm getting "Error: The variable *DEFAULT-PACKAGE-USE-LIST* is unbound." when using M-. on find-symbol in sbcl 1.2.11
2015-05-11T18:31:25Z Xach: I don't get that problem with all symbols.
2015-05-11T18:31:31Z Xach wonders what's up
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2015-05-11T18:32:29Z Xach: aha, interesting stuff in target-package.lisp.
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2015-05-11T19:01:01Z hitecnologys: Is order of slots in metaclass instance reliable (i.e. preserved in order they were listed in class definition)?
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2015-05-11T19:02:45Z jasom: minion: memo for regularfry: there is an alternative version of ccl that has no system-launched threads; if your program is single-threaded then you can fork with it.
2015-05-11T19:02:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell regularfry when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-11T19:04:46Z H4ns: hitecnologys: there is nothing special about metaclass instances.
2015-05-11T19:05:08Z H4ns: hitecnologys: they behave like any other instance.
2015-05-11T19:05:37Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I know, I'm just not sure whether DEFCLASS preserves the order of slots.
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2015-05-11T19:05:59Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it does, but i would not depend on it if i wanted portable and predictable.
2015-05-11T19:06:10Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#compute-slots "The result of compute-slots is a list of these effective slot definitions, in unspecified order."
2015-05-11T19:06:25Z jasom: Shinmera: let me know if you want any help on abcd; I've considered doing something like that for a while
2015-05-11T19:06:27Z Shinmera: So for effective slots it isn't necessarily preserving in order.
2015-05-11T19:06:29Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. Then I'll wrap it into macro and preserve ordering in some other field. Thanks.
2015-05-11T19:06:51Z hitecnologys: s/preserve/save/
2015-05-11T19:06:55Z H4ns: hitecnologys: that is much better - as Shinmera points out, a portable program cannot depend on the order of the slots.
2015-05-11T19:07:25Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'd bet that all clos implementations do preserve the order of the slots for standard-class instances, though.
2015-05-11T19:08:13Z hitecnologys: Anyway, I probably should not rely on betting.
2015-05-11T19:08:36Z Shinmera: jasom: Oh! Sure. I'm still working on some essentials right now, but once I'm over that I'll need some help finding suitable projects to use as test cases to build system definitions for. Since I don't really have any C/++ knowledge, that's an area I could use a lot of help with.
2015-05-11T19:08:39Z hitecnologys: Alright, thanks Shinmera and H4ns. Now back to coding.
2015-05-11T19:09:10Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i would not be shy to rely on the behavior for a short-lived program.
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2015-05-11T19:09:39Z hitecnologys: H4ns: this one isn't short-lived. It's a library I plan to use in a few projects of mine so it must at least work stable.
2015-05-11T19:09:55Z H4ns: hitecnologys: ok - then do it right.
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2015-05-11T19:11:38Z hitecnologys: I've spent last two weeks cleaning up the code merged from two different projects. Nevertheless, I find many identical comments and documentation strings all around the program indicating that it was copy-pasted. =P
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2015-05-11T19:11:58Z hitecnologys: Horrible.
2015-05-11T19:12:09Z hitecnologys: I'd punch my past self in a face for that.
2015-05-11T19:12:26Z H4ns: "this is a short-lived program, let me copy and paste and rely on observed behavior" :D
2015-05-11T19:12:41Z hitecnologys: Yeah... That's how it happens.
2015-05-11T19:13:08Z hitecnologys: Now it grew over 2k LOC and became a pain.
2015-05-11T19:15:46Z hitecnologys: It's funny how 1/4 of the code is binary types parsing.
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2015-05-11T19:58:12Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-11T19:58:20Z Ralt: is there a way to have T for (equal '(:foo 1 :bar 2) '(:bar 2 :foo 1))?
2015-05-11T19:58:40Z H4ns: Ralt: nope.
2015-05-11T19:58:51Z Ralt: H4ns: I can't even sort the keys?
2015-05-11T19:58:54Z dim: well in defense of your past self hitecnologys, it's useless to generalize over a need you have only once, I find 3rd is where to kick in "make it a clean proper lib"
2015-05-11T19:59:03Z Bike: you could, but then you'd ahve a different expression...
2015-05-11T19:59:07Z Bike: i think alexandria has a plist-equal.
2015-05-11T19:59:08Z H4ns: Ralt: of course you can sort the list before comparing them.
2015-05-11T19:59:17Z Bike: if it doesn't you could probably write one with alexandria tools pretty fast
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2015-05-11T19:59:59Z Ralt: ok, thanks
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2015-05-11T20:02:29Z failproofshark: if there is an update to a lisp library that's not yet available on quicklisp do i just open an issue or is there someone I should contact directly?
2015-05-11T20:03:48Z mood: failproofshark: Quicklisp updates about once a month. You'll have to wait
2015-05-11T20:04:26Z mood: Unless it's a fork or something, in which case opening an issue at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues might be an idea
2015-05-11T20:05:36Z failproofshark: ah ok thanks
2015-05-11T20:06:03Z PuercoPop: failproofshark: or just clone the repo to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ until the next ql update
2015-05-11T20:08:32Z failproofshark: PuercoPop: ok will do
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2015-05-11T20:17:41Z frog_: Hi all. I use "esrap" parser. I want to generate rules instead of writing (defrule ...) many times. Each rule must have name in (defrule NAME ...). I'm using (defun %bin-expr (n)   (make-symbol (concatenate 'string "BINARY-EXPRESSION-" (write-to-string n)))) for this but I think it's wrong because then I see multiple entries in the hash table
2015-05-11T20:18:03Z frog_: (eq (make-symbol "A") (make-symbol "A")) => nil
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2015-05-11T20:18:34Z frog_: how do i make it correctly?
2015-05-11T20:18:56Z akkad was hoping lw7 would be faster than 6 in some capacity.
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2015-05-11T20:19:20Z H4ns: frog_: maybe you want INTERN instead of MAKE-SYMBOL
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2015-05-11T20:20:13Z frog_: thanks, i'll try now
2015-05-11T20:20:47Z frog_: solved multiple entries in hash table, i guess it works. thanks!
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2015-05-11T20:22:32Z dim: or find-symbol even?
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2015-05-11T20:22:54Z jackdaniel: one small bug for ECL, one big wine for me \o/ https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/compare/develop...format
2015-05-11T20:22:57Z jackdaniel: good night :)
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2015-05-11T20:24:44Z frog_: dim: i don't think the symbol is defined at that point
2015-05-11T20:24:57Z dim: intern it is then
2015-05-11T20:25:09Z mood: jackdaniel: Nice work
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2015-05-11T20:27:47Z frog_: thanks a lot for the help! the main problem in this case is that i don't know how to phrase it for google :)
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2015-05-11T20:31:48Z pjb: hitecnologys: if you find that some part of the code is to much a proportion, then it means that you didn't abstract enough: introduce a DSL to generate that part automatically!
2015-05-11T20:31:59Z frog_: in general if i have a macro like (defrule NAME ...) when it expects the name to be a symbol like (defrule my-expr ...) but i want NAME to be computed, do i have additional options? I can think of (defmacro ... `(defurle ,blah)) which i use now and (eval ..). anything better?
2015-05-11T20:32:21Z hitecnologys: pjb: well, that's what I'm trying to do now.
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2015-05-11T20:32:32Z dim: doesn't always work that way
2015-05-11T20:33:35Z dim: see Von Neumann essay The Computer and the brain wherein he argues that the smallest representation of a humain brain might well be... a human brain
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2015-05-11T20:39:04Z pjb: frog_: using a macro to generate the macro call is best.
2015-05-11T20:39:33Z frog_: pjb: thanks!
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2015-05-11T20:39:45Z pjb: dim: happily, we should be able to store the smallest reprensentation of a human  brain in a PC in a few years.
2015-05-11T20:40:13Z pjb: frog_: the reason is that it keeps things in the same compilation time.
2015-05-11T20:40:31Z dim: did we find a representation for it that is smaller than the brain itself?
2015-05-11T20:40:53Z frog_: pjb: sounds logical
2015-05-11T20:40:56Z pjb: No, but in a few years, PC will have sufficient memory, and hopefully, cores to simulate it.
2015-05-11T20:41:13Z dim: I see what you mean then
2015-05-11T20:41:17Z pjb: dim: in the mean time: https://www.humanbrainproject.eu/
2015-05-11T20:41:26Z dim: point remains, it's not always possible to build a shorter version of a lengthy code
2015-05-11T20:41:38Z pjb: Oh, definitely.
2015-05-11T20:42:06Z pjb: At one time, your DSL takes the specification as source, and there's no way to reduce the size of the specification.
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2015-05-11T20:42:35Z pjb: Notice that there's still a lot of margin. For example, your macro could fetch a specification document from the web, parse it, and generate the code from it.
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2015-05-11T20:43:34Z pjb: (defparameter *x11-server* (implement-spec "http://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.5/doc/x11proto/proto.html"))
2015-05-11T20:45:17Z dim: yeah, well, have you had a look at my tiny play with that, cl-abnf? ;-)
2015-05-11T20:45:45Z dim: instead of generating full CL code I shied away and only generates a cl-ppcre parser with registered groups, but it's the same idea
2015-05-11T20:46:08Z dim: pjb: see, I don't only read what you write to be able to argue about it ;-)
2015-05-11T20:46:48Z pjb: nope. But there's cl-ometa http://subvert-the-dominant-paradigm.net/blog/?p=23 if you're interested; http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/14029/
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2015-05-11T20:49:27Z pjb: dim: an alternative is to use stackoverflow: http://gkoberger.github.io/stacksort/
2015-05-11T20:49:47Z dim: yeah
2015-05-11T20:49:57Z pjb: check it, it's funny
2015-05-11T20:49:58Z dim: that's a good one ;-)
2015-05-11T20:50:00Z dim: I know it
2015-05-11T20:50:11Z pjb: ok
2015-05-11T20:51:16Z dim: ok gn here, I'm done for the evening, and I might have some code to write for a customer soon, CL job ahead (re-using pgloader as a CL lib and all, might be fun)
2015-05-11T20:51:40Z pjb: good night
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2015-05-11T21:07:00Z frog_: bye all. thanks again!
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