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2015-04-15T00:03:45Z dto: Xach: i logged on specificially to tell you how cool the beard looks.
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2015-04-15T00:05:07Z akkad: (ql:system-apropos "wetware")
2015-04-15T00:05:10Z akkad: damn
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2015-04-15T00:49:21Z cluck: dto: beards always look great on knowledgeable people! :)
2015-04-15T00:50:20Z dto: :)
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2015-04-15T01:47:12Z gendl: Hi, trying to test some downloads (hosted at Amazon S3) for a tutorial I’m giving at ELS next week
2015-04-15T01:47:22Z gendl: they seem unusually slow from where I sit:
2015-04-15T01:47:24Z gendl: http://gendl.org
2015-04-15T01:48:09Z gendl: If anyone is going to ELS and plans to attend the Tuesday morning tutorial, you may want to download one of these beforehand — and I’d appreciate feedback on the download speed.
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2015-04-15T02:10:14Z SAL9000: gendl: tutorial.pdf page 20 (section 3.2) has a broken chapter reference ("Chapter ??")
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2015-04-15T02:24:58Z gendl: SAL9000: thanks for the heads up - in fact, that chapter still has to be written! (way overdue).
2015-04-15T02:25:12Z SAL9000: ah.
2015-04-15T02:25:55Z gendl: By the way, there is a #gendl channel here for anyone wanting to delve any deeper into Gendl…
2015-04-15T02:26:18Z pjb: gendl: 15 sec for the linux download, 1 min for the macosx download.
2015-04-15T02:27:04Z gendl: pjb: That looks normal. I’m seeing orders of magnitude slower from here. Hoping it’s a temporary aberration with S3.
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2015-04-15T02:34:08Z Slothrop: Is finite state automata taught in undergraduate CS?
2015-04-15T02:35:33Z gendl: Slothrop: it was in 1989 in Univ. of Michigan.
2015-04-15T02:36:10Z gendl: I would think that would be a fundamental part of the theory part of any undergraduate CS curriculum.
2015-04-15T02:36:19Z loke: gendl: very slow for me
2015-04-15T02:36:23Z gendl: but I have no idea what the kids are doing these days.
2015-04-15T02:36:30Z loke: gendl: 11 minutes for linux
2015-04-15T02:36:48Z gendl: loke: where are you sitting?
2015-04-15T02:36:48Z loke: gendl: 8 mins for iwndows
2015-04-15T02:36:50Z loke: 9 even
2015-04-15T02:36:51Z gendl: (or standing)
2015-04-15T02:37:05Z loke: gendl: In a char.
2015-04-15T02:37:07Z Slothrop: I'm trying to find a CS program
2015-04-15T02:37:11Z Slothrop: but I'm interested in mostly Theory
2015-04-15T02:37:19Z Slothrop: and in the U.S at least all the schools around me are shifting to software engineering
2015-04-15T02:37:20Z loke: osx download: 36 minutes
2015-04-15T02:37:21Z Slothrop: no theory
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2015-04-15T02:37:26Z loke: or 38, it's fluctuating
2015-04-15T02:37:34Z Slothrop: I don't have the accomplishments needed to go to a top ten school
2015-04-15T02:37:50Z Slothrop: But I would think that there were some decent schools around that aren't top 10 that have theory programs
2015-04-15T02:37:51Z loke: gendl: I'm in Singapore
2015-04-15T02:38:14Z gendl: (I’ve also noticed the OSX distro is bloated with a bunch of unneeded quicklisp dists, I have to clean those out - the OSX distro shouldn’t be so much bigger than the others).
2015-04-15T02:39:51Z gendl: Anyway, thanks for the feedback! Anyone else who cares to give feedback or continue discussing, I invite into #gendl, so we don’t clutter up this #lisp channel too much…
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2015-04-15T02:51:16Z dkcl: gendl: 3MB/s
2015-04-15T02:51:39Z gendl: dkcl: that seems normal.
2015-04-15T02:51:50Z gendl: dkcl: where are you located?
2015-04-15T02:51:55Z dkcl: Denmark
2015-04-15T02:52:36Z gendl: well so far at least Europe seems to be working normally, and that’s where the ELS is, so I guess I’ve got that going for me...
2015-04-15T02:53:30Z dkcl: Haha, indeed
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2015-04-15T02:55:05Z loke: I'd expect S3 to be able to serve at decent speeds everywhere
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2015-04-15T03:16:39Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-04-15T03:36:02Z drmeister: beach: Are you online?  Is IRCCloud acting up again.
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2015-04-15T03:36:12Z drmeister: Hello everybody.
2015-04-15T03:36:42Z pillton: G'day drmeister.
2015-04-15T03:37:47Z drmeister: Well - we found one problem in the LLVM code dealing with exception handling.  I'm waiting for someone to commit a change so I can check it out and see if it fixes my problem.
2015-04-15T03:38:09Z pillton: That is great.
2015-04-15T03:38:42Z brucem: drmeister: Did you try your problem on Linux or just OS X? Lang is fixing OS X...
2015-04-15T03:38:54Z drmeister: OS X.
2015-04-15T03:39:07Z drmeister: brucem: Do you mean lhames on #llvm?
2015-04-15T03:39:08Z brucem: drmeister: and the good news is that MS is going to be adding more COFF support to LLVM.
2015-04-15T03:39:15Z brucem: drmeister: yes.
2015-04-15T03:39:25Z brucem: drmeister: lhames is the person behind ORC
2015-04-15T03:41:13Z drmeister: Yeah - while we were trying to get to the root of my problem lhames got a test case working within ORC and ran into the same problem.  It appears that if an LLVM module doesn't reference anything in eh_frames that llvm will remove the eh_frames.
2015-04-15T03:42:11Z drmeister: This would make sense with the way I'm dealing with exception handling now.   I pass functions to C++ functions that do the actual catching and throwing.  So the Modules I generate don't generate landing pads or throw instructions.
2015-04-15T03:43:22Z gendl: Just checked into things… my S3 instance was in Ireland, and I didn’t have things forwarding to Cloudfront as I had thought.
2015-04-15T03:43:44Z gendl: Just fixed that, so now downloads.genworks.com is aliased to a cloudfront distribution. That seems to have fixed things.
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2015-04-15T03:48:41Z brucem: drmeister: ahh ... that makes sense.
2015-04-15T03:48:51Z brucem: drmeister: maybe the fix won't be MachO specific then!
2015-04-15T03:49:22Z brucem: drmeister: also .. that isn't something we would've run into as we don't delegate to C++ functions but just do the exception handling directly.
2015-04-15T03:50:50Z drmeister: brucem: I did the exception handling directly in my old compiler.  I only started delegating to C++ functions in Cleavir/Clasp.
2015-04-15T03:50:56Z drmeister: That's when the sh*t hit the fan.
2015-04-15T03:51:06Z drmeister: What is ORC?
2015-04-15T03:51:24Z drmeister: This http://ipf-orc.sourceforge.net?
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2015-04-15T03:52:39Z brucem: drmeister: it is the new-new JIT infrastructure that lhames is working on.
2015-04-15T03:53:08Z brucem: drmeister: it is an alternative to MCJIT ... the advantage to it is that it is composable and more flexible. It is, I think, experimental still.
2015-04-15T03:53:14Z drmeister: Oh the one to watch.
2015-04-15T03:53:28Z drmeister: We talked about it yesterday or the day before.
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2015-04-15T03:53:58Z drmeister: Sorry - neurons are sputtering and misfiring after many days of banging their container against a wall.
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2015-04-15T03:56:42Z brucem: drmeister: np ... I know the feeling. :)
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2015-04-15T04:12:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-04-15T04:15:14Z drmeister: brucem: lhames says ORC is ready for use - I'm going to investigate.
2015-04-15T04:15:19Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to finding the problem!
2015-04-15T04:15:53Z drmeister: beach: I hope we've found it - I've been disappointed so many times in the past week.
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2015-04-15T04:16:11Z drmeister: I'll find out soon enough - but it sounds like this could be it.
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2015-04-15T04:33:10Z brucem: drmeister: I just wasn't sure if ORC was going to remain API stable or not yet ... I'm not interested in chasing a moving target so much :)
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2015-04-15T04:44:27Z smokeink: does anyone have the CL sourcecode of the book "Common LISP Modules. Artificial Intelligence in the Era of Neural Networks and Chaos Theory", Springer-Verlag 1991 http://www.markwatson.com/books/ ? the link is dead http://www.markwatson.com/books/lispbook.zip
2015-04-15T04:46:35Z adlai: smokeink: ##hplusroadmap has paperbot
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2015-04-15T04:51:01Z smokeink: how does it work
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2015-04-15T05:03:04Z Bike: smokeink: it's on wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20150327032301/http://www.markwatson.com/books/
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2015-04-15T05:16:15Z smokeink: thanks
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2015-04-15T05:48:47Z drmeister: The fix that lhames implemented within llvm fixed my first test case.   I can now JIT and evaluate (catch 'foo (throw 'foo 'bar))
2015-04-15T05:49:09Z drmeister: It's the first time that hasn't crashed when compiled with Cleavir/Clasp.
2015-04-15T05:49:40Z Shinmera: Well, I suppose sometimes blaming the compiler /is/ the right thing.
2015-04-15T05:51:08Z drmeister: When you are developing a compiler - using a compiler writing library that is undergoing rapid development - yes, sometimes blaming the compiler is the right thing to do.
2015-04-15T05:53:14Z Bike: gosh, it must suck to be a RAM designer.
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2015-04-15T05:57:30Z drmeister: The problem was that in Cleavir/Clasp I delegate the catching/throwing to C++ functions within the executable.  The JIT'd modules don't contain any reference to exception handling and so llvm dropped the eh_frames section.   That creates a gap in the call stack when exceptions wind their way up the stack.
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2015-04-15T05:58:44Z drmeister: I've seen this since the beginning - in the debugger, sometimes I can't move up the call stack past a JIT'd function.   It was an annoyance  - it became a show-stopper.
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2015-04-15T06:12:38Z Shinmera: I wonder how long it would've taken for the LLVM guys to notice this bug by themselves
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2015-04-15T08:47:27Z Shinmera: loke: I added a documentation server/browser to staple now. All that's left is making a pretty CSS for it.
2015-04-15T08:47:37Z loke: yay
2015-04-15T08:47:39Z loke: Cool
2015-04-15T08:49:11Z Shinmera: If you want to give it a shot, clone staple from git quickload staple-server and run (staple-server:start)
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2015-04-15T09:19:31Z Shinmera: Doing this actually uncovered a few stability problems within staple, so I got some bug fixes out of it as well.
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2015-04-15T09:47:28Z faheem_: drmeister: ah, so it *was* an LLVM bug then?
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2015-04-15T09:48:16Z faheem_: drmeister: congratulations on tracking down the problem. And also on getting the LLVM folks to pay attention. That cannot have been easy.
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2015-04-15T10:15:26Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
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2015-04-15T10:15:48Z Xach has set mode +b *!*@unaffiliated/work-op/x-9031893
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2015-04-15T10:15:58Z fxck [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (fxck)
2015-04-15T10:16:02Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2015-04-15T10:16:29Z Xach: I'd rather not have someone who threatens swatting hang around here any more.
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2015-04-15T10:28:57Z loke: Xach: Who was that?
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2015-04-15T10:35:56Z Xach: loke: I don't know.
2015-04-15T10:36:12Z loke: Xach: What did he do?
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2015-04-15T10:37:35Z Xach: loke: Got upset when asked to discuss rocketry elsewhere, got ejected, threatened me for it.
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2015-04-15T10:41:41Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147081 has a log from yesterday.
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2015-04-15T11:05:25Z schjetne: Xach: I chuckled at the proposition that you were somehow killing Lisp
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2015-04-15T11:07:37Z ggole: O_o
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2015-04-15T11:10:27Z loke: schjetne: Eh how?
2015-04-15T11:11:49Z schjetne: loke: what this fxck character said in the log
2015-04-15T11:11:58Z loke: Oh, I never read it :-)
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2015-04-15T11:15:32Z p_l: sometimes I wonder what such a nutjob would do if they found out the address is rather... outside SWAT influence ;)
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2015-04-15T11:16:51Z Zhivago: Perhaps he was thinking of a fly swatter applied liberally to the bottom?
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2015-04-15T11:27:06Z jackdaniel: if /some/ specification requires X to be of type Y, and indeed, in library has function, where key argument X has default value to Y, should I explicitly say :X Y, or just omit this part?
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2015-04-15T11:31:38Z Xach: jackdaniel: does the specification also describe the default value?
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2015-04-15T11:33:50Z jackdaniel: specification clearly says, that ContentType header for request has to be set to application/x-www-form-urlencoded, and that is drakma's default value. I'm just wondering, if relying on default value shouldn't be reserved for situations, when programmer doesn't care (default values might change)
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2015-04-15T11:36:13Z jackdaniel: oh, I think I might be misunderstood, I don't mean clhs, just random application specification I'm writing right now
2015-04-15T11:37:52Z Xach: I would personally not provide the same value as the specified default.
2015-04-15T11:38:09Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-04-15T11:38:19Z Xach: If it changes, the code must change, just as when the order of arguments changes or any other API-breaking change.
2015-04-15T11:38:43Z jackdaniel: ok, this one convinced me :)
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2015-04-15T11:39:57Z Zhivago: I'd discriminate based on if I wanted to default or not.
2015-04-15T11:40:20Z Zhivago: If I need a particular value, then I would supply that value.
2015-04-15T11:40:29Z Zhivago: If not, then default.
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2015-04-15T11:41:28Z jackdaniel: that was my first tought
2015-04-15T11:41:32Z Zhivago: Otherwise it is very hard for people to discern your intention in the future.
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2015-04-15T12:05:06Z Shinmera: Good enough progress for a day, I'd say. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/588311569240616960
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2015-04-15T12:06:35Z antoszka: Shinmera: looks nice
2015-04-15T12:07:21Z scymtym__: Shinmera: where do the two sentences in the "Copyright" section come from?
2015-04-15T12:07:41Z Shinmera: scymtym__: ASD system author and license fields.
2015-04-15T12:07:58Z Shinmera: the year is just set to the current one atm because staple.
2015-04-15T12:08:16Z Shinmera: *because staple was originally intended for off-line generation for which that is appropriate
2015-04-15T12:08:28Z scymtym__: i see, i was wondering about the copyright year specifically. thanks.
2015-04-15T12:08:30Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how I could provide the correct year.
2015-04-15T12:08:56Z Shinmera: I might just omit it altogether.
2015-04-15T12:09:03Z scymtym__: might be safer
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2015-04-15T12:09:57Z scymtym__: you may also want to mention the :maintainer if its value is different form the :author so the current maintainer gets contacted
2015-04-15T12:10:10Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-04-15T12:12:39Z Shinmera: Fixed.
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2015-04-15T13:02:30Z xristos: ji
2015-04-15T13:02:59Z jackdaniel: hi (: /me smiled to himself recognizing keyboard shift
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2015-04-15T14:46:06Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-04-15T14:52:42Z pjb: holleo!
2015-04-15T14:53:43Z oleo: sup pjb
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2015-04-15T14:54:56Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-04-15T14:55:12Z oleo: afternoon beach!
2015-04-15T14:55:51Z splittist: Ho beach! All under control for ELS?
2015-04-15T14:56:01Z splittist fears work may intrude ):
2015-04-15T14:56:04Z beach: splittist: Definitely!
2015-04-15T14:56:21Z beach: My slides are made.
2015-04-15T14:56:33Z beach: splittist: Do you mean that you are not coming?
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2015-04-15T14:57:10Z splittist: beach: to be determined. I keep telling them the universe really does revolve around me, but they're not listening...
2015-04-15T14:57:34Z beach: Terrible!
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2015-04-15T14:59:24Z splittist: And I even tried to be interested in µKanren ...
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2015-04-15T15:01:52Z beach: Not sure what the combat is here.  Are you trying to get someone to pay your way?
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2015-04-15T15:05:43Z dlowe: I suspect he can't get the time off
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2015-04-15T15:08:13Z splittist: What dlowe says. Thinking about it, the problem is that the universe does revolve around me, and thus my absence at this moment is difficult to countenance.
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2015-04-15T15:09:26Z beach: splittist: I hope you can convince "them".
2015-04-15T15:10:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: splittist, I have the same problem. :(
2015-04-15T15:10:59Z splittist: We're too vital!
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2015-04-15T15:12:19Z beach: That's no good though.  Have "they" planned for the possibility that something might happen to you?
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2015-04-15T15:15:09Z splittist: beach: why would I care (:
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2015-04-15T15:15:54Z splittist: And no doubt I'm indulging my ego. Nevertheless, the battle continues. If only there was some way to get this back on topic.
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2015-04-15T15:20:57Z beach: There is always "and now for something completely different".
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2015-04-15T15:24:38Z beach: The article by Baker on SUBTYPEP talks about disjoint "kingdoms" of types.  So while he is not canonicalizing the type specifier, he somehow needs to split it into these different "kingdoms".  To make things worse, I need to make this part of Cleavir so that I can do type inference in an implementation-independent way.
2015-04-15T15:25:13Z beach: The fact that the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows for some freedom when it comes to floating-point types complicates things.
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2015-04-15T15:27:50Z beach: I did figure out how to determine the different floating-point types of the implementation without resorting to SUBTYPEP, though.
2015-04-15T15:28:38Z beach: I take an integer, and I coerce it to the 4 different floating-point types, and then compare the results using EQL.  Is there a better way?
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2015-04-15T15:32:17Z adlai: beach: what about upgraded-complex-part-type and the array equivalent?
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2015-04-15T15:32:57Z adlai: these don't give you all the possible representations, but they give you information you don't see from eql-testing
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2015-04-15T15:35:25Z beach: adlai: I haven't solved those yet.
2015-04-15T15:35:52Z beach: At the moment, I am calling SUBTYPEP on the array element type.
2015-04-15T15:38:38Z adlai: beach: slightly tangential, [how] is sicl licensed?
2015-04-15T15:38:57Z beach: adlai: It is the equivalent of "public domain".
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2015-04-15T15:39:18Z beach: But I have yet to figure out how to do it in places where no such status exists.
2015-04-15T15:39:27Z adlai: ok. i wasn't sure if absence of evidence indicated evidence of absence
2015-04-15T15:39:51Z adlai recalls seeing some single-sentence licenses that default to MIT when "public domain" is unbound
2015-04-15T15:40:20Z beach: I recall seeing that as well.
2015-04-15T15:40:29Z adlai: (it may have been BSD instead of MIT?)
2015-04-15T15:40:48Z beach: I have definitely seen BSD.
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2015-04-15T15:43:57Z Shinmera: In places like Germany and Switzerland you can't release things to public domain. It will always belong to the author. However, you can give explicit rights to freely redistribute, modify, and sell, which results in about the same as public domain. I think both BSD and MIT amount to that.
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2015-04-15T15:44:18Z beach: Yeah.
2015-04-15T15:44:20Z Shinmera: 'in about the same' in terms of 'freedom'.
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2015-04-15T15:45:18Z p_l: the difference is that law asserts authorship not just copyright
2015-04-15T15:45:49Z p_l: public domain in such law is related to copyright, not authorship
2015-04-15T15:46:00Z beach: Even for public domain, one can't claim authorship on something one didn't write.
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2015-04-15T15:46:34Z beach: I guess that's what you are saying.
2015-04-15T15:46:35Z Shinmera: beach: IIRC the difference is that, say, in the US you can completely write over the ownership of a work to a company or another person, while in Germany you cannot.
2015-04-15T15:46:48Z p_l: beach: yep
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2015-04-15T15:47:03Z p_l: what Shinmera said
2015-04-15T15:47:38Z hjs: Upldated quicklisp & packages, and now Antik doesn't quickload.  Something about ' the dispatch character #\# already exists.'  This is with sbcl on linux.  Backing out quicklisp to the previous version and it builds.  Anyone else seen this?
2015-04-15T15:47:40Z beach: In France there are two aspects, one of which can be signed over and one that can not.  However, I think there is a general exception for software.
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2015-04-15T15:48:39Z Xach: hjs: weird! can you post a backtrace on the new one?
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2015-04-15T15:49:24Z hjs: Zach: Sorry - can't until I get back home & try it again tonight...
2015-04-15T15:49:51Z Xach: hjs: ok. well, i test on linux and sbcl, and didn't see that problem.
2015-04-15T15:49:56Z hjs: Xach: Oops - misspelled your name. Sorry.
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2015-04-15T15:50:34Z beach: Hmm, I wonder what Nick Levine is planning to do to find a restaurant for that many people. :)
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2015-04-15T15:52:25Z Shinmera wonders if he could still manage to join, but heavily doubts it.
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2015-04-15T15:52:53Z Xach: beach: i think it will be quite difficult without a lot of local support
2015-04-15T15:53:01Z beach: Indeed.
2015-04-15T15:53:10Z Xach: The infrequent, informal boston lisp dinners are unwieldy with half that number
2015-04-15T15:53:51Z hjs: Xach: I'll try to get version #s & a backtrace tonight.  Once I get all the details, I'll post on the Antik mailing list.
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2015-04-15T15:54:34Z hjs: Also, btw, quicklisp-slime-helper didn't work.  M-x slime fails - something wrong witht he paths it's trying to load from...  Also posting from memory, so don't have the details handy.  I just commented out the quicklisp-slime-helper loading from my .emacs & forged ahead...
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2015-04-15T15:55:20Z jdz: i'll go to wherever Xach goes, and pay for his bewereges
2015-04-15T15:55:37Z jdz: beverages even
2015-04-15T15:56:25Z Xach: hjs: i'm very curious to learn more details. both those things work pretty well most of the time.
2015-04-15T15:56:47Z Xach: hjs: I am not on the antik mailing list, so if it turns out to be a quicklisp problem, i won't be able to help
2015-04-15T15:56:55Z beach: jdz: That's a nice offer.  This would be the opportunity for Xach to order a nice Chateau Petrus.
2015-04-15T15:57:20Z Xach has to speak the next day at 4:30AM, body time
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2015-04-15T15:57:47Z hjs:          Xach: I can cc: the info to you...
2015-04-15T15:57:50Z jdz: well, within reason, of course
2015-04-15T15:58:00Z Xach: hjs: cool.
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2015-04-15T17:14:24Z jasom: hmm why would an implemenation have a different tag for odd and even fixnums?
2015-04-15T17:14:35Z pjb: to have one more bit for fixnums.
2015-04-15T17:14:40Z jasom: right
2015-04-15T17:14:43Z jasom: I see it now
2015-04-15T17:15:31Z jasom:     for (i=0; i<(int)cl_MAX_TAG; TagInit(i,clUNKNOWN_OBJECT)) i++; <-- tracked down the first bug causing eclipse CL to crash
2015-04-15T17:16:16Z jasom: and that has to be the most confusing possible way to write that loop
2015-04-15T17:16:32Z pjb: Notice that even with "fixed" tag bits, the type of the objects is usually determined by a variable number of bits: the tag bits, a tag byte, and a type pointer are optionally used. Consider for example, arrays: the type of the array is not encoded in the tag bits.
2015-04-15T17:16:50Z jasom: right
2015-04-15T17:16:54Z pjb: Similarly, the "type" of a CLOS instance is actually a pointer to the class.
2015-04-15T17:17:28Z pjb: So this is really low level optimization, and several levels may exist.
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2015-04-15T17:26:21Z jasom: *sigh* it looks like it assumes the string-table is writable too
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2015-04-15T17:51:00Z drmeister: Should I implement some kind of long-float or should I just have them alias double-float?
2015-04-15T17:51:13Z drmeister: What's the feeling on the street?
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2015-04-15T17:51:49Z drmeister: I use the GNU GMP library - it's got some kind of big floats in there.   I haven't looked at what kind of hardware support there is for them these days.
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2015-04-15T17:52:08Z jasom: If your hardware doesn't have long-floats, it's common to alias to double
2015-04-15T17:52:24Z jasom: most code doesn't care if long-floats exist or not, so it might be nice to use GMP floats
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2015-04-15T17:54:26Z drmeister: Has anyone done a demo or seen a demo at a Lisp meeting like ELS?
2015-04-15T17:54:30Z drmeister: What do they look like?
2015-04-15T17:55:10Z drmeister: Am I supposed to do live coding or is it usually just examples in keynote/powerpoint?
2015-04-15T17:55:49Z Shinmera: My guess is that you can do whatever. Ime live coding usually ends up in technical problems and mishaps though, so I'd avoid it unless you feel extra ambitious.
2015-04-15T17:56:06Z Shinmera: That's not my ELS experience, just experience in general.
2015-04-15T17:56:49Z drmeister: Yeah - I've seen live coding disasters on youtube.   My code only ever works at 3:00am
2015-04-15T17:57:14Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure you can show people stuff on your laptop after the talk if they're interested.
2015-04-15T17:57:23Z Shinmera: That's what I'm planning to do with Qtools / Radiance / Parasol.
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2015-04-15T18:07:04Z jasom: Shinmera: which is radiance?
2015-04-15T18:07:26Z Shinmera: The web application environment thingamajig.
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2015-04-15T18:08:15Z jasom: ah
2015-04-15T18:09:19Z pjb: drmeister: clisp is the only implementation having the 4 different types of floats.
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2015-04-15T18:09:29Z pjb: It would be nice to have some competition here.
2015-04-15T18:10:55Z pjb: drmeister: over the years, I've seen a couple of complains about the limited range of double-floats.
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2015-04-15T18:19:36Z jasom: pjb: which is the 4th type?
2015-04-15T18:19:54Z jasom: short-float?
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2015-04-15T18:20:41Z fe[nl]ix_: drmeister: don't bother with long floats
2015-04-15T18:20:54Z fe[nl]ix_: it's not a big thing to have
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2015-04-15T18:21:47Z jasom: drmeister: I would say there are times it is useful, but since sbcl doesn't have it (except on x87) little to no code depends on it, which makes it lower priority
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2015-04-15T18:25:14Z fe[nl]ix_: sbcl has long floats ??
2015-04-15T18:27:05Z dim: well there's hardware support for 128 bits operations nowadays
2015-04-15T18:27:08Z pjb: jasom: yes.
2015-04-15T18:27:14Z dim: are long floats long enough?
2015-04-15T18:27:21Z pjb: jasom: in clisp short-floats are immediate, as fixnums.
2015-04-15T18:27:36Z pjb: dim: in clisp, you can set the length of long floats, so yes.
2015-04-15T18:27:40Z jasom: dim: which hardware that sbcl runs on has 128 bit floats?
2015-04-15T18:27:53Z dim: amd64 IIRC
2015-04-15T18:28:30Z dim: maybe only internal to some operations, I don't remember the specifics, see http://git.postgresql.org/gitweb/?p=postgresql.git;a=commit;h=959277a4f579da5243968c750069570a58e92b38
2015-04-15T18:28:52Z BRPocock: Pentium-SSE and x86-64/amd64 I think are 80 bits?
2015-04-15T18:28:54Z pjb: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/num-concepts.html#float-lim
2015-04-15T18:29:07Z jasom: dim: SSE only has 64 bit floats last I checked
2015-04-15T18:29:18Z BRPocock: +1, mea culpa. SSE = 64b
2015-04-15T18:29:19Z jasom: x87 has 80-bit floats
2015-04-15T18:30:02Z dim: sorry the platform support patch is http://git.postgresql.org/gitweb/?p=postgresql.git;a=commit;h=8122e1437e332e156d971a0274879b0ee76e488a
2015-04-15T18:30:06Z jasom: all operations on x87 would operate on 80-bit floats so that accumulated rounding errors would be non-evident in the 64-bit representation
2015-04-15T18:30:24Z dim: So far we only detect a gcc/clang extension that supports 128bit math,
2015-04-15T18:30:29Z jasom: dim: it has 128-bit integer math
2015-04-15T18:30:30Z BRPocock: and x87 80-bits are on the later Pentium-era CPU's.
2015-04-15T18:30:31Z jasom: not floats
2015-04-15T18:30:37Z dim: ooh, that too
2015-04-15T18:30:40Z dim: sorry for the noise then
2015-04-15T18:31:16Z jasom: SSE includes 128-bit integers (which actually moots double-precision floats for a lot of things they never should have been used for anyway)
2015-04-15T18:31:46Z jasom: I think it was v2 of SSE that added 128-bit integers, but might be wrong
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2015-04-15T18:33:15Z jasom: e.g. a 128-bit coordinate system could easily represent the entire solar-system to the resolution of 1pm
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2015-04-15T18:34:19Z jasom: actually, I just did the math and it could represent the entire milky way to the resolution of 1pm
2015-04-15T18:34:49Z jasom: milky way is ~1e33 pm and 2^128 is ~ 3e38
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2015-04-15T18:35:17Z BRPocock: Hmm. PPC long doubles are funky 106-bit beasties.
2015-04-15T18:35:35Z jasom: BRPocock: which PPC long doubles :P
2015-04-15T18:35:48Z jasom: altivec?
2015-04-15T18:36:54Z BRPocock: unclear here; something that ran Darwin, looking for authoritative ref
2015-04-15T18:37:34Z jasom: so a G4 likely
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2015-04-15T18:38:15Z jasom: the 74xx only had 64 bit floats
2015-04-15T18:38:17Z BRPocock: looks like it sums together two 64b doubles to give a partial improvement, there's stuff in GCC treating it as a union { long double ; double [2] }
2015-04-15T18:39:04Z jasom: that would make some sense, since the 604 did double precision by faking it with 2 single-precision, IIRC
2015-04-15T18:39:12Z BRPocock: http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/gcc/gcc-5646/gcc/config/rs6000/darwin-ldouble.c —— e.g. (but, rs6000?)
2015-04-15T18:39:51Z jasom: oh, that's an IBM mainframe Power chip
2015-04-15T18:40:53Z BRPocock: I would think, but then, Darwin, so I dunno. Common code or not. I don't think I have any PPC's lying around the house after the last move. *shrug*
2015-04-15T18:41:22Z jasom: well the G5 derived from the POWER4
2015-04-15T18:41:29Z BRPocock: Sad to learn SBCL won't promote to a floating-decimal-string, afaik?
2015-04-15T18:41:31Z jasom: and the POWER4 was used in the RS/6000
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2015-04-15T18:42:01Z BRPocock: ^ s/afaik/if I follow the above discussion correctly/
2015-04-15T18:43:14Z jasom: BRPocock: an operation on two floats of the same format will never promote in lisp
2015-04-15T18:43:53Z jasom: BRPocock: it will signal an error of floating-point-{under,over}flow
2015-04-15T18:44:09Z jasom: clhs 12.1.4.4
2015-04-15T18:44:09Z specbot: Rule of Float Precision Contagion: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_add.htm
2015-04-15T18:44:59Z jasom: BRPocock: but the largest floating-point format supported by sbcl I believe is not larger than the largest hardware supported one on all hardware-floating-point targets
2015-04-15T18:45:21Z jasom: and I don't recall if there are soft float versions of sbcl
2015-04-15T18:45:41Z BRPocock: I had seen somewhere, lost to memory, something that implied some Lisp compiler(s) did support long-floats as "strings" like, but, for my purposes (games, mostly) a mix of doubles and rationals works well enough.
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2015-04-15T18:46:20Z jasom: BRPocock: clisp supports arbitrary precision long-floats
2015-04-15T18:46:44Z jasom: BRPocock: but it won't ever automatically turn an operation on double-floats into long-floats; it will rather signal an overflow or underflow
2015-04-15T18:48:05Z BRPocock: yes, but seems that SBCL long-float ⇒ double-float; that is a surprise to me.
2015-04-15T18:49:28Z jasom: BRPocock: I think on non-SSE x86 targets it was 80-bit.  x86_64 doesn't have an 80-bit FPU
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2015-04-15T18:52:41Z jasom: of course there were hundreds of bugs that were due to people treating the x87 like a 64-bit FPU.  The most recent one I recall was a DoS attack on PHP where a specially crafted string to be treated as a float would cause it to infinite-loop, as the pricision of register-stored doubles is higher than the precision of stack-stored doubles
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2015-04-15T18:57:43Z BRPocock: hmm, if I read this gcc stuff correctly, x68-86 does have (and, on Linux, default to using) the 80-bit hardware
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2015-04-15T18:58:42Z BRPocock: Wikipedia has a grand write-up but weak source citations on that :-)
2015-04-15T19:00:08Z BRPocock: and I have only academic disappointment, until/unless I find my game world is picking up float jitter around the margins.
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2015-04-15T19:08:51Z jasom: BRPocock: why use floats rather than fixed-point?
2015-04-15T19:09:21Z jasom: coordinate systems are a primary example of a case where floats don't make much sense, since the precision desired is unrelated to the distance from the origin
2015-04-15T19:09:38Z BRPocock: yeah, but eventually it has to cast to floats.
2015-04-15T19:10:03Z BRPocock: We have a hybrid where the local origin of an "area" has an integer offset
2015-04-15T19:10:28Z BRPocock: (has to cast ⇒ to be rendered)
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2015-04-15T19:10:46Z jasom: right, but you can render it in coordinates relative to the camera, right?
2015-04-15T19:11:31Z BRPocock: The physics server takes worldspace doubles for all coörds/vectors/matrices/& al.
2015-04-15T19:11:50Z jasom: ah
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2015-04-15T19:12:30Z jasom: that's unfortunate, but at least it's doubles and not singles
2015-04-15T19:12:31Z BRPocock: when crossing between "areas" (physics on boundary) we just ( + ( - origin-a origin-b) local-value) - basically
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2015-04-15T19:14:21Z jasom wonders if you made the origin at exactly one world-size away from a corner of your world; would that make the precision identical everywhere?
2015-04-15T19:15:16Z BRPocock: it's kludgey, but the physics system we were using (homebrew) wasn't good enough, so the front-ends started using Unreal Engine physics on one case, another user has a partial bindings to a C++ engine, there are various strange cases, the core just tries to keep up with them all until/unless someone ports a good Lisp physics server
2015-04-15T19:15:30Z jasom: makes sense
2015-04-15T19:15:45Z jasom: BRPocock: what is this for?
2015-04-15T19:16:43Z BRPocock: MMO-RPG server. Both current main games are under dev / unreleased; the prior main user was www.tootsville.com (kids' mmo) who went under (administrative, not technical, causes of death)
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2015-04-15T19:17:34Z jasom: cool
2015-04-15T19:17:37Z BRPocock: The one I'm hoping to devote more time to starting fall or winter, we should be open-sourcing most/all once a few things are worked-out
2015-04-15T19:18:12Z jasom wished he had taken linear algebra 2 before his CG class
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2015-04-15T19:18:44Z jasom: there was a bimodal distribution on the first exam; those who had taken LA2 and those who hadn't; nearly all who hadn't (including me) dropped the class
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2015-04-15T19:19:19Z jasom: The center of the to nodes was something like 8 and 40
2015-04-15T19:19:25Z jasom: s/8/80
2015-04-15T19:19:32Z BRPocock: I got a good, solid D+ in Algebra II the second time I took it. I get the gist, but actually "solving" these things is far beyond me. — Our homebrew physics system had accidentally re-discovered part of differential calculus because neither of us working on it knew what we were doing.
2015-04-15T19:19:36Z Bicyclidine: what do you do in the second class, exactly? linear algebra 1 hereabouts goes at least as far as 2d transformations
2015-04-15T19:19:49Z jasom: Bicyclidine: not sure; I never took it
2015-04-15T19:19:55Z Bicyclidine: heh.
2015-04-15T19:19:59Z jasom: Bicyclidine: actually the honors LA1 probably would have been plenty
2015-04-15T19:20:37Z BRPocock just copies formulæ from the appendices of textbooks he doesn't understand.
2015-04-15T19:21:22Z jasom: 2/3rd of the exam required a notation that was mentioned exactly once in lecture (I knew I was behind and had everything that had ever been written on the blackboard in my notes)
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2015-04-15T19:22:30Z jasom: this was a hile ago, I think it was quaternions?
2015-04-15T19:22:43Z jasom: whatever it was, it was well covered in LA2
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2015-04-15T19:23:02Z Bicyclidine: old skool (though i understand quaternions are big in cg)
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2015-04-15T19:24:08Z jasom: anyway it was roughly something like question 3 used it and questions 4 & 5 relied on your answer to question 3.  I had no clue what it was.
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2015-04-15T19:32:00Z BRPocock: that is a special kind of evil …
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2015-04-15T19:34:05Z BRPocock: I had an elementary-school algebra professor who did "speed" maths, in which he'd call out a sequence of operations fairly quickly, then periodically stop and ask everyone what we had. "take 4, add 6, times 10…" The gimmick was, when people started to fall behind, he'd throw in something like "times 0" to give us a chance to catch up.
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2015-04-15T19:53:02Z balle`: hi all
2015-04-15T19:53:42Z Bicyclidine: hallo.
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2015-04-15T19:54:42Z balle`: seems like i am too dump to use case form with a string can someone enlight me plz? :)
2015-04-15T19:54:57Z balle`: why is this http://paste.lisp.org/display/147100 not returning 'BLUBB?
2015-04-15T19:54:57Z H4ns: balle`: you can't
2015-04-15T19:55:06Z balle`: i cant?
2015-04-15T19:55:17Z Bicyclidine: You can't use case with strings
2015-04-15T19:55:31Z ecraven: depends on your scheme implementation :)
2015-04-15T19:55:34Z H4ns: balle`: no.  case uses EQL to compare the keys, and two strings with the same contents are not neccessarily EQL
2015-04-15T19:55:36Z ecraven: but in most it won't work
2015-04-15T19:55:45Z H4ns: ecraven: scheme is off topic in #lisp
2015-04-15T19:55:47Z Bicyclidine: there's string-case in quicklisp, does some clever optimizations
2015-04-15T19:56:01Z ecraven: H4ns: ah, sorry, I should somehow highlight the current channel :-/
2015-04-15T19:56:02Z H4ns: balle`: you can also use find-symbol in the string
2015-04-15T19:56:12Z H4ns: on the string
2015-04-15T19:56:18Z dlowe: ecraven: #scheme or ##lisp would be good choices
2015-04-15T19:56:28Z dlowe: oops.
2015-04-15T19:56:36Z H4ns: (case (find-symbol (string-upcase bla) :keyword) (:muh  ...) (:blubb ...))
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2015-04-15T20:00:06Z balle`: H4ns: ah cool that did it thx :)
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2015-04-15T20:01:07Z guintwi: (+ 1 2 3)
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2015-04-15T20:03:52Z guintwi: (* 2 3 4)
2015-04-15T20:04:05Z Bicyclidine: do you need a calculator?
2015-04-15T20:04:09Z dlowe: guintwi: you should try that in a repl
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2015-04-15T20:05:51Z guintwi: (multiple-value-bind (r e p l) (values 2 3 4 5) (* r e p l))
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2015-04-15T20:06:31Z guintwi: (format t "Just trying to see if there was anyone alive")
2015-04-15T20:07:04Z Bicyclidine: use human language, please
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2015-04-15T20:08:17Z guintwi:  sed "s/human/English/a"
2015-04-15T20:09:27Z guintwi: (loop while listening when (not bored) do (said "something interesting"))
2015-04-15T20:09:33Z Bicyclidine: we're pretty international here, at the least you could get someone to direct you to another lisp channel in another language. this, however, is insufferable
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2015-04-15T20:11:57Z guintwi: (print "Very boring place indeed, don't suffer so much, I part with /part")
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2015-04-15T20:12:23Z drmeister: In the Cleavir/Clasp compiled Common Lisp source code there are only 45 landing-pads.   That means that non-local exits due to GO and RETURN-FROM only happen 45 times.  That's within 1,676,741 lines of LLVM-IR code.     So they are pretty rare.
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2015-04-15T20:37:13Z pjb: balle`: (case #1="hello" (("hello") 'no) ((#1#) 'yes) (otherwise 'no))
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2015-04-15T20:47:32Z balle`: pjb: huh? what's this #1= thing?
2015-04-15T20:47:55Z Bicyclidine: clhs ##
2015-04-15T20:47:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
2015-04-15T20:50:24Z pjb: balle`: what this doesn, is to put the exact same string in two places in the source.  A string is EQL with itself, so it will return YES.
2015-04-15T20:50:34Z pjb: s/sn/s/
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2015-04-15T20:54:45Z balle`: pjb: but this doesnt seem to work with variables does it? #1=blubb gives an error. i dont get it maybe i am too tired by now :)
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2015-04-15T20:58:30Z balle`: i send it to my workspace maybe i understand it tommorrow morning. mmmh lisp for breakfast :D
2015-04-15T20:58:39Z balle`: good night you all
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2015-04-15T21:29:53Z small-chimp: hi everyone i would like to learn functional programming but i am a chimp
2015-04-15T21:30:39Z axion: you know what they say about monkeys and typewriters? same thing with computers
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2015-04-15T21:31:12Z axion: seriously, what's not to understand?
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2015-04-15T21:33:04Z small-chimp: yes but
2015-04-15T21:33:10Z small-chimp: but yes but no but yes but
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2015-04-15T21:39:37Z BRPocock: Might have better luck with the chimp than a few folks I've tried to teach
2015-04-15T21:41:10Z small-chimp: but yes but no but yes but
2015-04-15T21:41:12Z small-chimp: yes but
2015-04-15T21:41:13Z small-chimp: hi everyone i would like to learn functional programming but i am a chimp
2015-04-15T21:41:14Z small-chimp: but yes but no but yes but
2015-04-15T21:41:15Z small-chimp: yes but
2015-04-15T21:41:16Z small-chimp: hi everyone i would like to learn functional programming but i am a chimp
2015-04-15T21:41:31Z BRPocock: yeah, I think the novelty of that has now worn off.
2015-04-15T21:41:52Z BRPocock: At the least, it might try some Church Numerals in bananas or something.
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2015-04-15T21:44:26Z small-chimp: i would like to be somewhat offensice
2015-04-15T21:44:28Z small-chimp: offensive
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2015-04-15T21:45:37Z Shinmera: What's with the increase of unfunny noise makers recently
2015-04-15T21:45:55Z Bicyclidine: i hope they're not related to those "chimpout" spammers
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2015-04-15T21:58:35Z Posterdati: froggey: hi
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2015-04-15T22:00:59Z froggey: hi Posterdati
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2015-04-15T22:04:54Z Posterdati: froggey: so, what's next? I'd like to run mezzano on real hardware, is it possible to help?? :)
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2015-04-15T22:07:48Z akkad: and port it to say alpha 64 :P
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2015-04-15T22:12:56Z froggey: Posterdati: what kind of hardware were you thinking of running it on? remember, only x86-64 is support at the moment
2015-04-15T22:13:35Z pjb: balle: works perfectly with variables too: (let ((string  #1="hello")) (case string (("hello") 'no) ((#1#) 'yes) (otherwise 'no)))
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2015-04-15T22:14:52Z Posterdati: froggey: x86 32
2015-04-15T22:15:14Z Posterdati: froggey: at least we need a sata/ide driver
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2015-04-15T22:19:16Z froggey: there are working drivers for IDE and AHCI disks. I did test the AHCI driver on real hardware and it worked pretty well
2015-04-15T22:19:52Z froggey: it won't run on x86-32 either
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2015-04-15T22:20:43Z Posterdati: froggey: then I have to buy an x86_64 sbc
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2015-04-15T22:25:09Z froggey: I have an Intel D945GCLF2 board for testing on, but that's probably not as small as you want
2015-04-15T22:25:35Z Posterdati: well
2015-04-15T22:25:53Z Posterdati: I need something with an i2c, spi or rs232 port on it
2015-04-15T22:26:34Z froggey: it has rs232
2015-04-15T22:26:42Z Posterdati: only?
2015-04-15T22:26:55Z froggey: think so
2015-04-15T22:27:16Z jasom: you can bit-bang i2c or spi over a parallel port, in the unlikely event that it has one
2015-04-15T22:27:26Z Posterdati: too slow
2015-04-15T22:27:55Z froggey: surprisingly enough, it does
2015-04-15T22:29:18Z Posterdati: what about an atom based board?
2015-04-15T22:29:58Z froggey: that's what my board has. you have to be careful though, some atoms support 64-bit mode and some don't
2015-04-15T22:33:03Z Posterdati: http://www.portwell.com/products/detail.php?CUSTCHAR1=PQ7-C200
2015-04-15T22:34:13Z Posterdati: http://www.minnowboard.org/meet-minnowboard-max/
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2015-04-15T22:35:12Z Posterdati: froggey: the last should work
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2015-04-15T22:35:58Z froggey: that should be fine
2015-04-15T22:37:27Z froggey: I don't think the first one would work. the Z5xx Atoms only seems to support 32-bit mode
2015-04-15T22:38:48Z Posterdati: ok
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2015-04-15T22:39:19Z Posterdati: the second is better, but seems to have sata and sd
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2015-04-15T22:49:39Z jasom: some of the via EPIA boards have IDE
2015-04-15T22:51:06Z adlai: "If the two methods play the same role and their order matters, an error is signaled. This happens as part of the qualifier pattern matching in define-method-combination." << is there some way to tell CLOS that their order doesn't matter?
2015-04-15T22:51:17Z jasom: and the mini-itx ones come with a minimum of 4 RS-232 ports
2015-04-15T22:51:45Z jasom: well 4 UARTS, I think some of them are only logic-level
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2015-04-15T22:53:18Z jasom: and it has a smbus header
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2015-04-15T22:57:57Z jasom: There you go: http://www.viaembedded.com/en/boards/modules/etx-8x90/ <-- SATA, IDE, 2x COM 1x I2C
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2015-04-15T23:04:30Z jasom: and the epia-p830 has a fan, but includes spi
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2015-04-15T23:07:36Z Bicyclidine: adlai: you mean you want to allow multiple methods with the same qualifiers and specializers?
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2015-04-15T23:08:25Z adlai: Bicyclidine: they have identical specializers but different qualifiers; the trouble happens because the builtin method grouping thinks their order matters, when it doesn't
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2015-04-15T23:40:42Z Slothel: I know this is not relevent to this channel but I can't get anyone in arch to respond
2015-04-15T23:40:48Z Slothel: I'm attempting to use Emacs as my lisp editor
2015-04-15T23:41:03Z Slothel: But when I start emacs, within 2-3 minutes it will crash my entire system
2015-04-15T23:41:15Z Slothel: It crashes openbox/lightdm and xorg all the way down to shell
2015-04-15T23:41:27Z Slothel: then xorg will print some stuff but it goes by too quickly to see, and then restarts openbox
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2015-04-15T23:41:32Z Slothel: but I lose my entire session
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2015-04-15T23:41:35Z Slothel: Anyone encountered thsi before?>
2015-04-15T23:41:40Z Bicyclid1ne: emacs etc. from arch repos? that's crazy.
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2015-04-15T23:41:52Z Bicyclid1ne: you can check xorg logs
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2015-04-15T23:42:21Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: I've tried but I don't really know how to decipher the xorg logs
2015-04-15T23:42:39Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: I was just hoping against hope that someone in here had the same problem and knew a quick ix
2015-04-15T23:42:39Z Bicyclid1ne: have you tried #emacs?
2015-04-15T23:42:41Z Slothel: *fix
2015-04-15T23:43:01Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: Yeah, they just said they'd never heard of that and to try compiling emacs from source instead of using arch repos
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2015-04-15T23:43:11Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: And my intuition tells me that wont fix it
2015-04-15T23:43:28Z Bicyclid1ne: it's pretty crazy. i have no idea why that would happen. is your xorg weirdly modified or something?
2015-04-15T23:43:46Z Slothel: Bicyclidine: Nope it's pretty much a vanilla install, just straight from arch repos
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2015-04-15T23:49:39Z axion: i have never experienced that with arch. i suspect a driver/hardware issue. i would pipe x output to a file the next time you start it, so you can inspect later on
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2015-04-15T23:52:41Z jasom: Slothel: try switching video drivers; those are the most crashy things I've run into for X11
2015-04-15T23:53:01Z Slothel: axion: I'm not exactly knowledgeable on the inner workings of X. Is there information that X would output that isn't logged?
2015-04-15T23:53:22Z Slothel: jasom: I'm using f86x-ati or whatever.. I'll switch to somethign else and give it a go. That's a good suggestion
2015-04-15T23:53:33Z jasom: fglrx?
2015-04-15T23:54:05Z jasom: for an amd card it will be either fglrx or radeon
2015-04-15T23:54:20Z jasom: (fglrx is the AMD supplied one and radeon is the OSS one)
2015-04-15T23:54:40Z Bicyclid1ne: using fglrx is also a big pain, which is why i asked about customization. you have to use an old X most of the time
2015-04-15T23:55:05Z jasom: Bicyclid1ne: I'm using fglrx on 1.16.4
2015-04-15T23:55:14Z jasom: but I'm not on arch
2015-04-15T23:55:18Z Slothel: jasom: it's radeon I believe
2015-04-15T23:55:33Z jasom: Slothel: yeah, radeon was *super* crashy for me
2015-04-15T23:55:52Z jasom: particularly with multiple monitors
2015-04-15T23:55:54Z Slothel: xf86-video-atl is the name
2015-04-15T23:56:08Z axion: heh yeah i just use ivy bridge. got sick of ati stuff
2015-04-15T23:56:14Z Slothel: jasom: This may be a naive question but, is there another driver I can use that works witha  radeon graphics ard?
2015-04-15T23:56:29Z jasom: Slothel: fglrx
2015-04-15T23:56:36Z Bicyclid1ne: jasom: yeah, and fglrx doesn't work with x 1.17, or something. on arch this means using a seprate repo with old x. aaaanyway apparently not relevant.
2015-04-15T23:56:46Z Slothel: jasom: Right but I thought fglrx required an older version of X as said above?
2015-04-15T23:56:52Z jasom: Bicyclid1ne: ah, 1.16 is latest stable in Gentoo
2015-04-15T23:57:06Z Bicyclid1ne: using an older x isn't much of a problem.
2015-04-15T23:57:16Z jasom: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AMD_Catalyst#Xorg_repositories <--
2015-04-15T23:57:19Z Slothel: This may not actually be a driver issue at though because it only seems to affect emacs
2015-04-15T23:57:32Z Bicyclid1ne: you'll have to uninstall stuff and generally get a whole and exciting new set of problems.
2015-04-15T23:57:56Z Slothel: It may actually be worthwhile to try to compile emacs from source then, if this is a big undertaking
2015-04-15T23:57:58Z Bicyclid1ne: i have no idea why it would be emacs only. that makes no sense.
2015-04-15T23:58:03Z axion: tui or gui emacs?
2015-04-15T23:58:07Z Slothel: gui
2015-04-15T23:58:13Z axion: have you tried tui?
2015-04-15T23:58:13Z Bicyclid1ne: try using emacs-nox?
2015-04-15T23:58:25Z Slothel: yeah it works perfectly in terminal
2015-04-15T23:58:31Z Slothel: it's just gui mode
2015-04-15T23:58:54Z jasom: emacs and chromium would crash when I was using radeon
2015-04-15T23:58:55Z Slothel: I would be more ready to accept the possibility of a driver/hardware error if this happened to more programs than just emacs
2015-04-15T23:59:08Z jasom: But it took a few days
2015-04-15T23:59:16Z Slothel: I haven't had a look at the xorg logs yet but I suspect a segfault
2015-04-15T23:59:45Z manuel__ joined #lisp