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2015-04-12T02:59:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-04-12T03:02:37Z Bike: mornin'.
2015-04-12T03:04:14Z linux_dream: good morning
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2015-04-12T03:30:19Z beach: So I want to implement TYPEP, and I need to deal with the case where the arguments are 1. some array <array> and 2. the type descriptor (ARRAY <element-type> ...).   From the Common Lisp HyperSpec, we learn that TYPEP should return true if and only if (ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE <array>) is the same type as (UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE <element-type>).  It would appear that checking whether they are "the same type" requires SUBTYPEP.
2015-04-12T03:30:35Z beach: But SUBTYPEP also requires a reliable TYPEP.
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2015-04-12T03:31:51Z beach: I guess I am safe since no implementation has array types specialized to other array types.
2015-04-12T03:31:54Z Bike: well, yours does :p
2015-04-12T03:32:12Z Bike: i suppose it would for eql types and stuff too.
2015-04-12T03:32:42Z beach: Sorry,  not quite awake yet.  Mine does what? And  it would do what?
2015-04-12T03:33:06Z Bike: nevermind.
2015-04-12T03:33:26Z beach: Oh?
2015-04-12T03:34:28Z beach: For SUBTYPEP I am thinking of implementing a version similar to that of Baker, and it needs a good TYPEP.
2015-04-12T03:34:38Z Bike: ok: you're using baker's subtypep (i think) which is more typep based than most implementations. but any subtypep implementation has to deal with (subtypep '(eql ...) ...) which essentially reduces to typep, so never mind.
2015-04-12T03:34:59Z beach: Oh, I see.  OK.
2015-04-12T03:35:46Z Bike: but yeah, array types bug me in my half done type system too.
2015-04-12T03:36:14Z Bike: like, what if you have (typep some-array '(array a)), and (subtypep (array-element-type some-array) 'a) => NIL NIL?
2015-04-12T03:36:39Z beach: At some point I was thinking that all implementation would return the same (as in EQUAL) type for the two element types.
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2015-04-12T03:37:00Z Bike: huh?
2015-04-12T03:37:01Z beach: Bike: Right.  I must make sure that can't happen.
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2015-04-12T03:37:26Z Bike: Is that even possible? What if I do (array (satifies foo))?
2015-04-12T03:37:52Z Bike: i guess you have to upgrade it to t, but then you're psosibly violating that one restriction everyone violates anyway.
2015-04-12T03:38:10Z beach: Yeah.
2015-04-12T03:38:55Z beach: I mean, I can't see an implementation returning (MOD 256) for UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE and (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) for ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE.
2015-04-12T03:39:09Z beach: ... if the two types are the same.
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2015-04-12T03:39:50Z Bike: oh, sure. usually the set of upgraded types is fixed, anyway.
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2015-04-12T03:40:25Z beach: Not only that, ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE would return the exact same type descriptor then.
2015-04-12T03:40:48Z beach: As opposed to a different descriptor that represents the same type.
2015-04-12T03:41:57Z beach: So I *could* use EQUAL rather than SUBTYPEP for my initial problem.
2015-04-12T03:42:08Z beach: But it is unappealing to me.
2015-04-12T03:44:09Z Bike: as far as i remember baker it was based on having a canonical element to represent each type. maybe you could have a map from type specifiers to those canonical elements, and then just eq the results.
2015-04-12T03:44:58Z beach: I would have to know them a priori then.
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2015-04-12T03:46:42Z beach: So if most implementations don't use Baker's technique, does that mean that they suffer from the shortcomings that Baker lists in his paper?
2015-04-12T03:47:28Z Bike: oh, let me look at the actual paper. what section are the shortcomings in?
2015-04-12T03:47:59Z Bike: if you mean the stuff in section 5, no. abcl's is like that but sbcl's is more sophisticated, and probably ccl's also.
2015-04-12T03:48:23Z beach: There is not an explicit list of them.  He just claims that most implementations would return NIL NIL in many cases where it is possible to determine a correct answer.
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2015-04-12T03:49:20Z Bike: well, as i was playing with the other day, sbcl at least can answer basic SAT instances. so there's that.
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2015-04-12T03:50:01Z beach: But didn't we also see examples where SBCL was unable to answer fairly trivial queries?
2015-04-12T03:50:47Z Bike: yep.
2015-04-12T03:51:04Z Bike: i do not think that baker's would have worked with those queries either, though.
2015-04-12T03:51:23Z beach: Hmm.
2015-04-12T03:51:36Z Bike: since they're basically statements of boolean algebra.
2015-04-12T03:51:51Z Bike: which are in general NP-complete~
2015-04-12T03:52:12Z beach: Well, Baker's method would have required the types to be defined.
2015-04-12T03:52:37Z Bike: make em satisfies then
2015-04-12T03:52:57Z beach: Yes, I see.
2015-04-12T03:53:36Z beach: I think Baker excludes SATISFIES.
2015-04-12T03:54:21Z Bike: right. there's no way to deal with the queries in question that doesn't amount to a SAT solver.
2015-04-12T03:54:39Z beach: It would appear that way.
2015-04-12T03:55:07Z Bike: because they are literally sat queries. fun with types!
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2015-04-12T03:55:45Z beach: I need to consult my favorite co-author about this.  She is an expert in SAT solvers.
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2015-04-12T03:56:34Z Bike: 's like when i hung out in a haskell channel and they spent th eir type rewriting mathematical theorems as types. useless but kinda fun
2015-04-12T03:56:44Z beach: I guess the best thing would be to have both.  First ask Baker, and if it returns NIL NIL then try a SAT solver.
2015-04-12T03:57:19Z beach: spent their "time"?
2015-04-12T03:57:55Z Bike: Yes, sorry.
2015-04-12T03:58:12Z Bike: i got types on the brain, now.
2015-04-12T03:58:23Z beach: All my fault.  Sorry.
2015-04-12T03:58:35Z Bike: heh.
2015-04-12T03:58:54Z Bike: i will go back to my normal state of being annoyed at cffi and vendor blobs soon enough.
2015-04-12T03:59:09Z beach: Yeah, that's much more productive. :)
2015-04-12T03:59:52Z Bike: nothing like a library exclusively using multiple out parameters and a hacked up errno to make you wish for lisp
2015-04-12T04:00:12Z beach: Oh, dear!
2015-04-12T04:00:33Z beach: You do this for money, yes?
2015-04-12T04:01:17Z Bike: not this thing in particular.
2015-04-12T04:01:37Z Bike: but with cffi and a creative macro i can give it a decent api almost automatically.
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2015-04-12T06:35:49Z beach is making progress on his talks for ELS.
2015-04-12T06:36:21Z beach: I am guessing it's 20 minutes + 10 minutes questions.
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2015-04-12T06:44:36Z Shinmera still feels like last week was just a day ago
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2015-04-12T06:45:20Z Shinmera: Does drmeister have his presentation ready? Seems to me like he's been very occupied with the exception problem.
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2015-04-12T06:46:26Z beach: Shinmera: Given what I have seen of his MO so far, I think he might make his slides on the flight.
2015-04-12T06:47:18Z Shinmera: Well, that doesn't sound comfortable to me, but I'm not someone to tell others how to do their things.
2015-04-12T06:47:41Z Shinmera: His paper for it is finished though, right?
2015-04-12T06:48:06Z beach: Yes, I think so.  I hope he remembered to upload it before the deadline.
2015-04-12T06:48:15Z beach: I assume he would be reminded otherwise.
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2015-04-12T07:08:58Z guicho`: aaa
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2015-04-12T07:09:23Z guicho`: hm first time using irc client on emacs
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2015-04-12T07:14:53Z beach: guicho`: Now you can use abbrevs, then.  I do that all the time.
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2015-04-12T07:15:24Z Shinmera: You can write your own abbreviations in other clients too.
2015-04-12T07:15:35Z Shinmera should actually finally get around to doing that
2015-04-12T07:16:20Z guicho`: beach: I just remember what you have talked about.
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2015-04-12T07:17:56Z guicho`: but of more importance is to automatically obtain the log starting from the last logout. is it possible?
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2015-04-12T07:24:25Z guicho: switched to ERC.
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2015-04-12T07:35:10Z beach: guicho: I have come to realize that Emacs abbrevs represent an under-used and under-appreciated feature.  They save me many hours per year.
2015-04-12T07:35:58Z Shinmera wonders if he should record his lightning talks at home in advance to practise and for those that can't come to the conference
2015-04-12T07:37:34Z guicho: ah ELC.
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2015-04-12T07:40:09Z beach: Shinmera: If you do, would you also make the recording available before the conference?
2015-04-12T07:40:24Z Shinmera: I don't know if I should
2015-04-12T07:40:27Z Shinmera: Should I?
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2015-04-12T07:40:49Z beach: Up to you.  Consider, though, that many (most?) ELS participants do not hang out here.
2015-04-12T07:41:33Z Shinmera: Well yes. I mean, they'll hear it at the ELS either way.
2015-04-12T07:41:40Z beach: I am saying that because it is easy to forget.
2015-04-12T07:42:03Z beach: And what I mean, is that you can get valuable feedback here before the real thing.
2015-04-12T07:42:13Z Shinmera: Right.
2015-04-12T07:42:27Z Fare: Shinmera: you should
2015-04-12T07:42:42Z Shinmera: Ok, I'll see that I can get to that soon then.
2015-04-12T07:42:54Z Fare: especially since I'm not going to ELS this year
2015-04-12T07:43:02Z Fare: hopefully I'll have something to show next year
2015-04-12T07:43:41Z beach: Fare: Damn!  How am I supposed to practice my Vietnamese then?
2015-04-12T07:44:05Z Fare: :)
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2015-04-12T07:44:25Z Fare: weren't you creating lots of little lispers in Saigon?
2015-04-12T07:44:27Z Shinmera: You can learn some Swiss German from me instead.
2015-04-12T07:44:49Z Fare: how do you say "the lake isn't on fire" in Schwitzer Dutch?
2015-04-12T07:45:03Z beach: Fare: Vietnamese students are not much interested in learning.  More in getting a diploma.
2015-04-12T07:45:29Z beach: Shinmera: Sure.  We can do that.
2015-04-12T07:45:31Z Shinmera: Fare: De see isch nöd am brenne.
2015-04-12T07:45:47Z Shinmera: Fare: Depending on your spelling and regional preferences that could also be written much more differently though.
2015-04-12T07:47:02Z Fare: beach: if they were interested in learning, they'd go online
2015-04-12T07:47:16Z Shinmera noticed that Fukamachi is also coming to ELS, but is way too insecure about his Japanese skills to even think about trying to talk to him in it.
2015-04-12T07:47:47Z Fare: beach: looks better than french students who are interested in neither
2015-04-12T07:48:02Z beach: Fare: There is some truth to that.
2015-04-12T07:48:29Z beach: Shinmera: I have an unfair advantage over Fare.  His Vietnamese is that of a child living in Vietnam decades ago.
2015-04-12T07:49:37Z Fare: I think my three year old daughter speaks and understands better french and english than I speak vietnamese
2015-04-12T07:49:50Z Fare: But I know how to say "socialist" in vietnamese.
2015-04-12T07:49:57Z beach: Nice! :)
2015-04-12T07:50:02Z Fare: and she doesn't know that
2015-04-12T07:51:16Z Fare: Shinmera, the way to learn a language is to not be afraid to suck at it
2015-04-12T07:51:25Z Fare: also works for computer languages
2015-04-12T07:51:27Z beach: I can't agree more.
2015-04-12T07:51:48Z Fare: which is why the french school way to teaching languages is TOXIC
2015-04-12T07:51:52Z beach: And to expose your ignorance without second thoughts.
2015-04-12T07:51:56Z Shinmera: Fare: I know, which is why I'm terrible at it.
2015-04-12T07:52:23Z Fare: it's all about being correct at saying useless things.
2015-04-12T07:52:23Z hitecnologys: Well, this principle probably applies to virtually everything.
2015-04-12T07:52:30Z Fare: hitecnologys, bingo
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2015-04-12T07:52:59Z hitecnologys: Fare: do I get a jackpot?
2015-04-12T07:53:32Z Shinmera: Natural languages have an additional handicap over other subjects though in that exposing yourself to other people is absolutely necessary to get good at it. Many other things can be practised to a really good level in isolation.
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2015-04-12T07:54:00Z Shinmera: Or at least that's how it is for myself.
2015-04-12T07:54:24Z Fare: "The ceramics teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio, he said, would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would bring in his bathroom scales and weigh the work of the “quantity” group: fifty pound of pots rated an “A”, forty p
2015-04-12T07:54:24Z Fare: ounds a “B”, and so on. Those being graded on “quality”, however, needed to produce only one pot -albeit a perfect one – to get an “A”. Well, came grading time and a curious fact emerged: the works of highest quality were all produced by the group being graded for quantity. It seems that while the “quantity” group was busily churning out piles of work – and learning from their mistakes – the “quality” group
2015-04-12T07:54:24Z Fare: had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay."
2015-04-12T07:55:28Z beach: :)
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2015-04-12T07:56:37Z beach: Fare: I don't know for sure, but I think language teaching has improved a lot in France the past few decades.
2015-04-12T07:56:56Z Fare: beach: can they now speak French correctly?
2015-04-12T07:57:05Z beach: Some can. :)
2015-04-12T07:57:20Z Fare: that's improvement indeed
2015-04-12T07:57:29Z beach: Some can even write it somewhat well.
2015-04-12T07:57:49Z Shinmera: I had eight years of mandatory French education. No one in our class at the end of it all could speak well.
2015-04-12T07:58:05Z Fare: I remember in high school, the only one who spoke perfect French was that guy who just came from Romania.
2015-04-12T07:58:17Z beach: Heh!
2015-04-12T07:59:03Z Fare: we soon enough managed to introduce some slang into his language.
2015-04-12T07:59:12Z beach: I can improvise near-perfect political speeches like "welcome to ELS" or "thank you for ...".
2015-04-12T07:59:53Z beach: But that's because they are just filled with empty phrases and no substance.
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2015-04-12T08:00:05Z Fare: THAT is perfect French.
2015-04-12T08:01:09Z beach: Maybe.  I can't do it in my native language anyway. :)
2015-04-12T08:01:28Z beach: My dialect doesn't lend it self to such things.
2015-04-12T08:03:17Z Shinmera: In more lispy news, I actually got a CL job thanks to scymtym.
2015-04-12T08:03:30Z beach: Congratulations!
2015-04-12T08:03:31Z Fare: Shinmera, congrats. What is it about?
2015-04-12T08:03:54Z Shinmera: I'm working on a web-visualisation of robotics data.
2015-04-12T08:04:33Z Shinmera: More specifically, he's at the university of Bielefeld in the robotics department, and I was hired to work with him on producing a webapp to display data from their robotics data format (RSB/RSBag).
2015-04-12T08:06:08Z Shinmera: The only downside is that I could only commit myself to 10 hours a week because of my own university education and all that.
2015-04-12T08:07:06Z Shinmera: But hey, I suppose <s>wasting</s> spending time on IRC can have unexpected benefits.
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2015-04-12T08:36:13Z Posterdati: hi
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2015-04-12T08:47:08Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
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2015-04-12T08:54:45Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-04-12T09:00:51Z ecraven: morning :)
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2015-04-12T10:28:56Z pjb: beach: it seems that an array of arrays of fixed dimensions would be an obvious optimization.
2015-04-12T10:30:35Z pjb: Ah, no, because arrays keep their identity.
2015-04-12T10:31:14Z pjb: Like structures, etc. That's why no implementation has array types specialized to other array types: they upgrade to T and be done with it.
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2015-04-12T11:27:04Z beach: pjb: Right.
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2015-04-12T11:34:16Z ggole: You need linear objects for that, really
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2015-04-12T15:56:07Z k-stz: why does M-. sometimes fail to find *variables* in a file?
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2015-04-12T15:59:19Z pjb: k-stz: you need to load the file for the source to be findable.  If you just C-x C-e the definition, it won't know where it comes from.
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2015-04-12T16:00:19Z k-stz: let me rephrase that, it does find the file but it doesn't jump straight to it
2015-04-12T16:00:32Z k-stz: have to i-search it as it drops me to the top of the file
2015-04-12T16:01:51Z SAL9000: k-stz: you might be better served asking in #emacs
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2015-04-12T16:02:25Z pjb: Well, this is slime assumedly.
2015-04-12T16:02:30Z k-stz: yes
2015-04-12T16:02:55Z k-stz: you guys have the same behaviour?
2015-04-12T16:03:06Z pjb: The only case I know where it's difficult to jump to the definition, is when the definitions is hidden in a macro.
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2015-04-12T16:04:44Z k-stz: pjb: out in the open in a DEFPARAMETER, also vars in other files whether defvar or defparameter jump straight to the line they're in
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2015-04-12T16:05:38Z pjb: k-stz: try C-c C-l on the file and M-. again?
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2015-04-12T16:07:21Z k-stz: pjb: already tried; that's how I always do it
2015-04-12T16:07:36Z pjb: Then I don't know. You'd have to debug it.
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2015-04-12T16:08:53Z k-stz: if I C-c C-l it jumps to the top of the file, but if I C-x C-e the variable definition itself and then M-. even tells me that it can't find the variable definition !
2015-04-12T16:09:10Z k-stz: well ok, i i-search it then
2015-04-12T16:09:10Z pjb: What implementation do you use?
2015-04-12T16:09:13Z k-stz: sbcl
2015-04-12T16:09:46Z pjb: Do you have an notice on that file? Perhaps when there are errors, it doesn't note the position of stuff?
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2015-04-12T16:11:13Z k-stz: no notice, but.. if I put the file in my .asd and then load it seems to finally work. go figure!
2015-04-12T16:11:43Z k-stz: (it worked before standalone, no problem)
2015-04-12T16:11:43Z pjb: Funny.  Perhaps sbcl needs C-c C-k instead of C-c C-l
2015-04-12T16:12:11Z pjb: I hear a lot of people use C-c C-k
2015-04-12T16:12:58Z k-stz: pjb: yes, yes it works that way too
2015-04-12T16:13:09Z k-stz: hmm I'll stick with that then
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2015-04-12T18:36:35Z slimetree: how come this doesn't work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147005
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2015-04-12T18:37:57Z slimetree: does macrolet have a different scope
2015-04-12T18:41:59Z scymtym: slimetree: the lexical macro produces its expansion by evaluating `(pr ,x) at macroexpansion-time. `(pr ,x) is somewhat equivalent to (list 'pr x) which signals an error because x is not bound at macroexpansion-time.
2015-04-12T18:47:11Z ehu: slimetree: but this works: http://paste.lisp.org/+35FH/1 (at compile time, not at runtime)
2015-04-12T18:47:41Z ehu: to make that work at runtime, you need to rename the "test" function's X argument to Y.
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2015-04-12T19:23:54Z k-stz: what function does this: (foo (list 1 2 3) (list 2 2 3)) ==> (list 2 3), you know, return common values as a joint-set
2015-04-12T19:24:37Z k-stz: ah nvm its INTERSECTION
2015-04-12T19:26:44Z k-stz: plus (delete-duplicates *)
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2015-04-12T20:01:10Z dkcl: k-stz: It's not really a set if it has duplicates
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2015-04-12T20:04:19Z k-stz: dkcl: yes, hence the delete-duplicates
2015-04-12T20:06:16Z dkcl: But INTERSECTION is a set operation, so maybe it would make sense to remove duplicates first in order for the variable to be a set :p
2015-04-12T20:06:25Z dkcl: Anyway, just nitpicking
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2015-04-12T20:12:44Z francogrex: what do you think: https://github.com/y2q-actionman/with-c-syntax/ ?
2015-04-12T20:15:49Z k-stz: dkcl: I give you that, it helps readability if that can be expected
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2015-04-12T20:16:36Z dkcl: francogrex: I was working on the opposite for a while
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2015-04-12T20:19:22Z francogrex: dkcl: the opposite would be awesome
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2015-04-12T20:23:10Z dkcl: francogrex: I had a bit of analysis paralysis regarding what to do with pointers
2015-04-12T20:23:27Z slimetree: is there a way to call a macro a la funcall
2015-04-12T20:24:49Z k-stz: slimetree: define-symbol-macro maybe helps?
2015-04-12T20:25:02Z Bike: slimetree: why do you want to do that?
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2015-04-12T20:27:47Z francogrex: not a simple task surely
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2015-04-12T20:41:27Z francogrex: oh that package is buggy
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2015-04-12T20:57:00Z kephra: slimetree, (macroexpand macroform)
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2015-04-12T20:58:44Z kephra: btw, if we are at define-symbol-macro ... I currently experiment with symbol-reader-macros, e.g (a . b) expanding to (cons a b) in reader is now a macro, using shunting yard in s-expressions
2015-04-12T20:59:13Z kephra: or nil is now a symbol-reader-macro, expanding into []
2015-04-12T20:59:45Z kephra: *oups* () of course .... [] is the internal javascript representation of a list
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2015-04-12T21:02:20Z pjb: slimetree: (funcall (macro-function 'cond) '(cond ((nil 'yo) (t 'hi))) nil)
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2015-04-12T21:33:19Z k-stz: pjb: what's the second argument to the expansion function?
2015-04-12T21:33:49Z k-stz: oh its (macroexpand-1 form <env>) the environment?
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2015-04-12T21:44:07Z k-stz: ahh this is serious business (defmacro foo (&environment env) (print env)), (foo) ==> NULL-lexical environment
2015-04-12T21:44:14Z k-stz time to learn some more
2015-04-12T21:45:36Z pjb: k-stz: try: (macrolet ((bar () (foo))) (bar))
2015-04-12T21:48:38Z k-stz: *brain explodes*
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2015-04-12T21:50:24Z k-stz: I guess this shows me an implementation specific representation of the current lexical environment
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2015-04-12T21:56:22Z k-stz: pretty neat behind the scene stuff a simpler example: (let ((x 2)) (foo))
2015-04-12T21:56:26Z pjb: Yes. But foremost, it's not the NIL environment.
2015-04-12T21:56:58Z pjb: This shows the importance of using environments in macros, when using functions taking environment arguments.
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2015-04-12T22:16:03Z k-stz: if the null-environent holds no bindings, shouldn't my (defmacro foo (&environement env) (print env)) atleast know the binding of PRINT to be able to do the expansion
2015-04-12T22:17:27Z k-stz: ah PRINT is part of the global environment
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2015-04-12T23:41:42Z Slothrop: Is it okay to use something like Insertion Sort if you know that in practice the set you're sorting will always be small, or is it bad practice because of the (even remote) possibility of receiving a large set?
2015-04-12T23:42:50Z pjb: Slothrop: I say it's okay.
2015-04-12T23:43:09Z pjb: Better would be to select an algorithm depending on the data.
2015-04-12T23:43:29Z Slothrop: pjb: Hmm, that's a good idea. More work for me but it's more flexible.
2015-04-12T23:43:45Z Slothrop: pjb: I really like mergesort but not for any of it's practical properties, just because it's cool
2015-04-12T23:44:10Z pjb: some implementations use mergesort in CL:SORT for some cases.
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