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2015-03-25T00:13:17Z eudoxia: has anyone successfully used swank-client?
2015-03-25T00:13:55Z eudoxia: i'm having trouble, well, actually getting it to do anything other than connecting
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2015-03-25T01:27:29Z LiamH: cliki "temporarily unavailable"?
2015-03-25T01:28:53Z Fade: hrmn. what is the canonical location for adsf now?
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2015-03-25T01:29:01Z nyef: LiamH: Known issue, apparently. Something about a missing file when trying to restart the server process.
2015-03-25T01:29:26Z LiamH: nyef: thanks
2015-03-25T01:29:31Z Fade: er 'asdf
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2015-03-25T01:32:07Z pillton: Fade: What do you mean by "location"? File or Web?
2015-03-25T01:32:19Z Fade: git repo
2015-03-25T01:32:58Z Fade: the checkout I had is from common-lisp.net which seems to have gone away.
2015-03-25T01:33:49Z pillton: Fade: http://common-lisp-net.tumblr.com/post/114079895476/gitlab-migration-and-go-live
2015-03-25T01:40:20Z Fade: ah
2015-03-25T01:40:21Z Fade: thanks
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2015-03-25T02:37:17Z akkad: is there an emacs mode for cl that does not treat #+lispworks lines as comments and colors them wrong?
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2015-03-25T02:41:25Z nyef: ... SLIME, when run with lispworks as a backend?
2015-03-25T02:41:59Z nyef: I'm also having a vague memory of an "ELI" mode, which might be lispworks...
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2015-03-25T04:24:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-25T04:24:46Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-03-25T04:28:42Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-03-25T04:30:32Z beach: Yay, a contribution to SICL from Andy Peterson.   I get contributions from time to time, but not often.
2015-03-25T04:31:53Z Quadrescence: beach, Since you're the compiler expert de l'année, you can take a stab at making this work correctly at compile time! https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/cfd417e5e6bf2970e32a6ac41e7326edec142455/ensure-toplevel.lisp
2015-03-25T04:31:53Z minion: Quadrescence, memo from pkhuong: if you want to inline literal closures, you can probably hack something with common-cold's serialisable closures.
2015-03-25T04:33:19Z beach: Quadrescence: It shall have to wait until I am a little more awake.
2015-03-25T04:33:34Z beach: I take it you tried it in a particular implementation?
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2015-03-25T04:34:01Z Quadrescence: well it's only expected to work at load-time. yes i have tried it and it seems to work
2015-03-25T04:34:20Z beach: Oh.
2015-03-25T04:35:24Z Quadrescence: I just want it to work at compile time, which is the time it's actually useful
2015-03-25T04:35:28Z Quadrescence: load time is too late!
2015-03-25T04:35:39Z beach: I understand.
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2015-03-25T04:37:18Z Quadrescence: If it cannot be done, I wonder what the minimum extension to CL is necessary to implement such a thing. Presumably such functionality must exist to implement EVAL-WHEN internally.
2015-03-25T04:38:45Z beach: Oh, OK.  Maybe you want to name it ASSERT-TOPLEVEL rather than ENSURE-TOPLEVEL.  ENSURE in Common Lisp seems to mean "create if it doesn't exist".
2015-03-25T04:39:23Z beach: ... as in ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
2015-03-25T04:39:26Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-03-25T04:39:54Z Quadrescence: I couldn't think of a better name and ASSERT didn't seem right either since ASSERT returns NIL.
2015-03-25T04:40:33Z beach: And what does this return if it is toplevel?
2015-03-25T04:40:50Z beach: Oh, it's an implicit PROGN?
2015-03-25T04:40:52Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-03-25T04:41:19Z Quadrescence: (whatever-toplevel &body b) should just behave as if it is a PROGN, with that extra conditional side effect
2015-03-25T04:41:36Z beach: I think I get it.
2015-03-25T04:41:38Z drmeister: beach:  I have new timing data.
2015-03-25T04:41:54Z Quadrescence: beach, The point is for extra error checking in DEFINE-* style macros.
2015-03-25T04:41:55Z drmeister: Cleavir/Clasp code runs 3.2x faster
2015-03-25T04:42:18Z Quadrescence: Many of my DEFINE-* macros expand into some sort of SETF, and of course those can happen anywhere, and of course I don't like that being possible. :)
2015-03-25T04:42:28Z beach: Quadrescence: I see.  I'll give it some thought when I wake up.
2015-03-25T04:42:44Z drmeister: I compiled the minimal Clasp which includes the bootstrapping compiler
2015-03-25T04:42:57Z drmeister: I compiled "setf.lsp" generating only the bitcode file.
2015-03-25T04:43:06Z beach: drmeister: That's not bad.
2015-03-25T04:43:20Z Bike: make the second eval-when ct and e?
2015-03-25T04:43:39Z Quadrescence: Oh Bike you're here
2015-03-25T04:43:43Z drmeister: The Cleavir/Clasp compiled bootstrapping compiler takes 4.3 seconds and the Clasp compiled bootstrapping compiler takes 13.6 seconds.
2015-03-25T04:43:57Z Bike: oh. no. i see, you want a compile time error when it's not at toplevel, of course.
2015-03-25T04:43:58Z Quadrescence: Bike, I think that adding CT won't do anything if it's not at toplevel
2015-03-25T04:43:59Z beach: drmeister: This is from compiling a single file?
2015-03-25T04:44:04Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-03-25T04:44:49Z beach: drmeister: Maybe we need a somewhat bigger sample to give a number with 2 digits precision. :)
2015-03-25T04:44:51Z drmeister: This is a real world test - it tests a complex piece of code - a compiler.
2015-03-25T04:44:53Z Bike: only thing i can think of to force compile time execution is with macros.
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2015-03-25T04:45:03Z Quadrescence: Bike, that's all I can think of too
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2015-03-25T04:45:29Z Quadrescence: But you need conditional expansion of the macro, I think...
2015-03-25T04:45:45Z beach: drmeister: Yes, the test is great.
2015-03-25T04:46:04Z Bike: so, (macrolet ((wall () (when (boundp ',at-toplevel-p) (error ...)))) (wall)) after the second eval-when
2015-03-25T04:46:11Z Bike: prrrrrobably not technically conforming
2015-03-25T04:46:35Z Bike: er, unless boundp. whatever.
2015-03-25T04:47:46Z beach: drmeister: So you used the bootstrapping compiler to compile the file, but the bootstrapping compiler was compiled with Cleavir/Clasp this time?
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2015-03-25T04:49:11Z beach: drmeister: Sorry, I am a bit lost in how much progress you have made.
2015-03-25T04:49:55Z drmeister: To be very specific - Yes to - "So you used the bootstrapping compiler to compile the file, but the bootstrapping compiler was compiled with Cleavir/Clasp this time?"
2015-03-25T04:50:20Z Quadrescence: Bike, I think.... this might work!
2015-03-25T04:51:02Z beach: drmeister: Why are you compiling the bootstrapping compiler with Cleavir/Clasp?
2015-03-25T04:51:31Z beach: drmeister: I am not terribly smart yet, so have patience.
2015-03-25T04:51:31Z Quadrescence: Bike, Of course compiling it isn't dropping me into the debugger on SBCL unless *BREAK-ON-SIGNALS* is T.
2015-03-25T04:51:44Z drmeister: beach: You are - it's just confusing.
2015-03-25T04:51:47Z drmeister: :-)
2015-03-25T04:52:06Z drmeister: Sorry - You are terribly smart - it's just confusing.
2015-03-25T04:52:08Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-03-25T04:52:12Z Quadrescence: Bike, Fantastic. I think this is the solution!
2015-03-25T04:52:23Z Bike: Quadrescence: ...maybe you could bind break-on-signals in the macroexpander?
2015-03-25T04:52:28Z Bike: i feel bad for even thinking that.
2015-03-25T04:52:29Z drmeister: The bootstrapping is the first serious piece of code that I've been able to compile with Cleavir/Clasp
2015-03-25T04:52:35Z Quadrescence: Bike, I was just trying that.
2015-03-25T04:53:06Z drmeister: Not that I've tried much other code - but I'm working on bootstrapping Cleavir/Clasp so I've been working hard on compiling all of the Clasp+Cleavir source code.
2015-03-25T04:53:16Z Quadrescence: Bike, I just need to think about what the appropriate time to bind the hook.
2015-03-25T04:53:38Z drmeister: Part of that is the bootstrapping compiler - so I thought - why not run that on some code - oh look - I've got all this Clasp source code - so I used that.
2015-03-25T04:53:58Z beach: drmeister: OK, I see.
2015-03-25T04:55:14Z drmeister: beach: I also have the bootstrapping compiler compiled by the bootstrapping compiler - so I compare the Cleavir/Clasp compiled bootstrapping compiler to the bootstrapping compiled bootstrapping compiler.
2015-03-25T04:55:44Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, that's a reasonable benchmark.
2015-03-25T04:55:56Z drmeister: Let's call the various versions of Clasp   AClasp (interpreter) BClasp (bootstrapping compiler) and CClasp (Cleavir/Clasp)
2015-03-25T04:56:11Z Bike: Quadrescence: though, do you really want it to be in the debugger? even without break on signals the compilation will fail, which is the point.
2015-03-25T04:56:41Z Quadrescence: I dunno, SBCL makes it seem like it does so successfully.
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2015-03-25T04:57:06Z Quadrescence: ; compilation finished in 0:00:00.019
2015-03-25T04:57:16Z drmeister: Maybe that doesn't make things clearer.
2015-03-25T04:57:17Z Quadrescence: ensure-toplevel.fasl written
2015-03-25T04:57:22Z drmeister: You get what I did.
2015-03-25T04:57:28Z beach: drmeister: Certainly shorter to type.
2015-03-25T04:57:45Z beach: drmeister: You can turn those abbreviations into Emacs abbrevs. :)
2015-03-25T04:57:52Z drmeister: Ok then - I compared BClasp compiled with BClasp   to BClasp compiled by CClasp
2015-03-25T04:57:55Z drmeister: Ok - that works.
2015-03-25T04:57:59Z Bike: it works (or doesn't) for me
2015-03-25T04:58:10Z Bike: i mean, it writes a fasl, but it does that anyway.
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2015-03-25T04:58:30Z Bike: if you load the fasl it just says hey compile time error.
2015-03-25T04:58:41Z beach: M-x define-global-abbrev<RET>bclasp<RET>Clasp compiled with the bootstrapping compiler<RET> :)
2015-03-25T04:58:59Z beach: The :) is not part of the abbrev.
2015-03-25T04:59:52Z beach: drmeister: Just joking.
2015-03-25T05:00:05Z Quadrescence: Bike, I am doing (load (compile-file "ensure-toplevel.lisp")). It loads fine for me.
2015-03-25T05:00:15Z drmeister: I just compiled 30 files with BClasp compiled with BClasp (B+B) with BClasp compiled with CClasp (B+C)
2015-03-25T05:00:34Z drmeister: 111.35 seconds for B+B  and 58.03 for B+C
2015-03-25T05:00:42Z drmeister: About 2x faster this time.
2015-03-25T05:00:51Z Bike: Quadrescence: oh, i was j ust testing the macrolet by itself. so i guess the problem is something else.
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2015-03-25T05:01:00Z beach: drmeister: One digit precision is better.
2015-03-25T05:01:15Z Quadrescence: Bike, An error is caught by the end of the compilation unit.
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2015-03-25T05:01:27Z beach: drmeister: I hope you think this is a good start.
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2015-03-25T05:01:47Z beach: drmeister: It's just the beginning of the journey.
2015-03-25T05:01:51Z drmeister: Yes, I am pleased - it will get better.
2015-03-25T05:02:11Z beach: drmeister: Did you do any inlining there?  You know it works already, right?
2015-03-25T05:02:18Z drmeister: No inlining.
2015-03-25T05:02:19Z Bike: Quadrescence: load compile-file errors on a file with (macrolet ((foo () (error ""))) (foo)), i mean.
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2015-03-25T05:02:45Z drmeister: I know - I haven't done anything with inlining because I've been really focused on getting CClasp working
2015-03-25T05:03:10Z beach: drmeister: Of course.  Just saying.  It might already improve timing a bit.
2015-03-25T05:03:13Z drmeister: Really, really focused - I haven't answered emails or done anything else that I should be doing for weeks.
2015-03-25T05:03:34Z beach: drmeister: Who pays the bills?
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2015-03-25T05:03:41Z drmeister: I'm tenured.
2015-03-25T05:04:06Z drmeister: I teach Organic Chemistry - two lectures a week - that pays the bills.
2015-03-25T05:04:18Z beach: drmeister: Sure, but you don't want electricity to be turned off at home just because you haven't had time to pay the bill.
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2015-03-25T05:04:46Z drmeister: Behind every great man is a better woman.
2015-03-25T05:05:31Z beach: Careful.  She might not put up with this kind of focus on work.
2015-03-25T05:05:35Z Zhivago: Behind every great man is a great arsehole.
2015-03-25T05:05:40Z drmeister: ... rolling her eyes
2015-03-25T05:06:19Z Quadrescence: Bike, CCL behaves the way I like and expect.
2015-03-25T05:07:06Z Bike: can you paste your exact code for ensure-toplevel now, cos it really ought to be working on sbcl also.
2015-03-25T05:07:12Z Quadrescence: yes
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2015-03-25T05:08:11Z drmeister: beach: I'm going to pause programming for a while and get some things done - like the draft I owe you.
2015-03-25T05:08:25Z beach: drmeister: Good idea.
2015-03-25T05:09:37Z Quadrescence: Bike, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/ea36cccd241a939767fdc849832c86e20316de55/assert-toplevel.lisp
2015-03-25T05:10:40Z drmeister: Then I'd like to talk to you about optimization - immediate fixnums, characters, conses, calling conventions, inlining, etc.  Where is the low-hanging fruit - where would I get the most bang for buck and set myself up for further improvements.
2015-03-25T05:11:15Z Bike: Quadrescence: works 4 me. (load compile-file -> a given form was not found at the top level when it was asserted to be)
2015-03-25T05:11:30Z beach: drmeister: OK.  Make a list and we'll do one item at a time.
2015-03-25T05:11:30Z Quadrescence: hm. maybe it's a SLIME thing?
2015-03-25T05:11:43Z Bike: compilation fails with C-c C-k as well.
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2015-03-25T05:12:39Z drmeister: Ok.   I'll rebuild everything overnight and tell you if CClasp compiled with CClasp runs - that's the next milestone - if it doesn't then there are still bugs in the code generation.
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2015-03-25T05:13:01Z beach: drmeister: Sounds good.
2015-03-25T05:13:02Z drmeister: Is CClasp self-hosting.
2015-03-25T05:13:29Z drmeister: My guess is that it is - I'll find out tomorrow.
2015-03-25T05:13:29Z Quadrescence: Bike, http://codepad.org/WelMhYfF
2015-03-25T05:14:05Z Bike: dunno what to tell you.
2015-03-25T05:14:36Z Quadrescence: Maybe I need a new SBCL. Nothing offensive in my .sbclrc...
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2015-03-25T05:15:39Z drmeister: It is nice to watch the compilation go with BClasp compiled with CClasp - it zips by.
2015-03-25T05:15:48Z asinine-pyon is now known as acosine-pyon
2015-03-25T05:16:04Z beach: drmeister: Oh, it's noticeable?
2015-03-25T05:16:13Z drmeister: Absolutely.
2015-03-25T05:16:17Z drmeister: 2-3x
2015-03-25T05:16:35Z Quadrescence: anyway I must sleep. Thanks for the help Bike!
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2015-03-25T05:16:55Z Bike: ta
2015-03-25T05:17:44Z Bike: i don't suppose anyone else around is willing to see whether compiling that file signals an error.
2015-03-25T05:18:14Z drmeister: I'll have to compare how fast it compiles to how fast SBCL compiles some complex piece of code and then compare their run times.
2015-03-25T05:18:16Z beach: Bike: I only have SBCL.  Would that still be helpful?
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2015-03-25T05:19:16Z Bike: sure. (also, i meant compiling and then loading)
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2015-03-25T05:19:35Z beach: OK, what's the file.  The one with the codepad URL?
2015-03-25T05:19:54Z Bike: the bitbucket.org one.
2015-03-25T05:20:02Z Bike: with the reader condition removed.
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2015-03-25T05:20:57Z Bike: quadresence would also probably appreciate any insights on why it wouldn't work. it's pretty hairy.
2015-03-25T05:21:46Z beach: I get an error at compile time.
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2015-03-25T05:22:50Z beach: I take it that means it works as intended.
2015-03-25T05:22:56Z Bike: yep.
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2015-03-25T05:25:14Z Bike: thanks. weird stuff.
2015-03-25T05:25:53Z beach: I will understand it after significantly more coffee.
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2015-03-25T05:27:33Z Bike: you could remove the body part, really. it's supposed to signal an error at compile time if not at top level.
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2015-03-25T05:28:23Z beach: That much I understood.
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2015-03-25T05:35:02Z Kolt: howdy
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2015-03-25T05:57:13Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago
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2015-03-25T05:59:51Z beach: Hello Kolt.
2015-03-25T06:00:18Z Kolt: is there an init system proyect of some kind going on in lisp?
2015-03-25T06:00:57Z aeth: So do Lisp HTTP servers run directly without interfacing with Apache/etc.?
2015-03-25T06:01:08Z beach: What is an "init system proyect"?
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2015-03-25T06:01:26Z beach: aeth: hunchentoot does.
2015-03-25T06:01:54Z aeth: Isn't that a security risk? I'm assuming Apache gets more security attention
2015-03-25T06:02:10Z Kolt: I meant a proyect regarding the creation of an init system writen in lisp.
2015-03-25T06:02:40Z beach: Kolt: OK, then what is "an init system"?  Does it have to do with operating systems?
2015-03-25T06:02:52Z beach: aeth: I'll let others answer.  I have no idea.
2015-03-25T06:02:52Z aeth: I think Apache often runs as its own user, can be used with selinux, etc.
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2015-03-25T06:04:03Z beach: Kolt: There is now an entire operating system written in Common Lisp if that's of any use to you.  It is called Mezzano.
2015-03-25T06:05:01Z beach: aeth: Why would it be a security risk?
2015-03-25T06:06:36Z Kolt: beach: I've ran it on a vm, but I don't think there's source code for it yet. I was also looking into GNU/Guix, looks interesting.
2015-03-25T06:06:52Z aeth: beach: well it's connected to a network
2015-03-25T06:07:09Z Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago
2015-03-25T06:07:25Z beach: Kolt: Mezzano is open source.  But you didn't answer my question: What is an "init system"?
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2015-03-25T06:11:54Z beach: aeth: On the other hand, it is written in Common Lisp so you don't have problems with buffer overflows, etc.
2015-03-25T06:13:24Z aeth: beach: yeah, it's more an issue of the unknown unknowns, not the known unknowns
2015-03-25T06:13:28Z Kolt: beach: I don't know the correct term but Upstart, OpenRC and SystemD are all init systems
2015-03-25T06:13:51Z aeth: beach: to rely on it being secure just because of its implementation language not being popular is sort of security by obscurity afaik
2015-03-25T06:13:52Z beach: Kolt: I'll look them up.
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2015-03-25T06:15:42Z aeth: We know the ways in which C is bad for security
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2015-03-25T06:16:37Z Zhivago: Which is 'undefined behaviour'.
2015-03-25T06:18:30Z SAL9000: aeth: more like relying on the security of the implementation of the language. You can't (except for FFI) cause buffer overflows etc. from inside Common Lisp, *assuming* the implementation does not have these bugs!.
2015-03-25T06:19:11Z aeth: unfortunately FFI is very common too
2015-03-25T06:19:35Z aeth: I don't think there are many Lisp Machine web servers these days
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2015-03-25T06:20:20Z SAL9000: aeth: there aren't many Lisp Machines these days, either. however, there are quite a few mature Common Lisp implementations which run on existing, non-Lisp, OSes and hardware.
2015-03-25T06:20:35Z aeth: yes
2015-03-25T06:20:53Z SAL9000: and you don't have to use FFI to write a web server.
2015-03-25T06:21:19Z aeth: So I guess writing my own subset of CL that's just enough to run hunchentoot is probably not a good idea for a web server in terms of security :-p
2015-03-25T06:21:42Z beach: aeth: It sounds like you should stick to Apache.
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2015-03-25T06:22:09Z SAL9000: that seems to be an exercise in reinventing the wheel. there's probably some existing CL-in-CL sandbox out there.
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2015-03-25T06:22:54Z aeth: no, no, no... I'm saying that if I did write it then that would be bad because if you rely on the security of the implementation then a brand new one would probably be insecure
2015-03-25T06:22:59Z aeth: because it has not been tested/patched/etc.
2015-03-25T06:24:03Z aeth: Completely unrelated. Does a Lisp written in GPL require all programs written to use that Lisp to also be GPL?
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2015-03-25T06:27:26Z H4ns: if you want to distribute your application bundled with the lisp, then you'll have to license your application under the gpl.
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2015-03-25T06:27:46Z aeth: Is that why there's the LLGPL?
2015-03-25T06:28:04Z H4ns: you might endlessly debate the fine points, but that is how the license works.  if you want to avoid having to think about things like these, use more permissive licenses.
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2015-03-25T06:29:14Z aeth: H4ns: right, so then the Lisp implementation is sort of like a library and so the LGPL might be more appropriate?
2015-03-25T06:29:44Z H4ns: if you want to go into that area, yes.  but read the licenses yourself
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2015-03-25T06:30:02Z H4ns: and understand that if you're mixing the gpl with other licenses, you're in violation of its spirit.
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2015-03-25T06:32:52Z aeth: I am neither a lawyer nor a judge so my interpretation of the GPL when I read it is not important
2015-03-25T06:33:03Z H4ns: your common sense is important.
2015-03-25T06:33:41Z aeth: I'm skeptical of appeals to common sense. Plenty of things that are true are not common sense, including quite a bit of modern science.
2015-03-25T06:33:43Z H4ns: all that "how can i use gpl licensed software with software licensed in a different way"-thinking is really missing the point.
2015-03-25T06:34:04Z H4ns: have it your way.
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2015-03-25T06:40:04Z beach: I forget the technical term for that discourse device; i.e. the one where you attribute a made-up idea to your opponent ("they rely on Common Lisp being relatively unpopular for security") only so that you can criticize it ("that is security by obscurity").  Does anyone remember?
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2015-03-25T06:42:12Z aeth: beach: I think what you're looking for is a misunderstanding and/or miscommunication.
2015-03-25T06:42:32Z aeth: To assume "opponent" is to assume a debate environment and we were talking about religion or politics here.
2015-03-25T06:42:52Z Zhivago: Well, CL isn't particularly secure.
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2015-03-25T06:43:08Z Zhivago: You can't portably sandbox and it has undefined behaviour.
2015-03-25T06:43:08Z aeth: s/were/weren't
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2015-03-25T06:45:27Z Zhivago: So if you are relying on CL for security, it had better be due to obscurity or having programmers that don't make mistakes. :)
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2015-03-25T06:46:12Z Shinmera: beach: You're thinking of the strawman fallacy.
2015-03-25T06:46:35Z Shinmera: beach: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
2015-03-25T06:47:10Z aeth sighs
2015-03-25T06:50:10Z axion: how can i stop style-warnings from being printed? i'm using a foreign library that causes thousands of these printed to the repl in one function call, slowing things down
2015-03-25T06:50:55Z aeth: Shinmera: there's a problem with that line of reasoning, though. http://existentialcomics.com/comic/9
2015-03-25T06:51:24Z Shinmera: aeth: I don't know why you're showing me this, nor what it has to do with what I said.
2015-03-25T06:51:30Z aeth: fallacy fallacy
2015-03-25T06:51:34Z Shinmera: ...So?
2015-03-25T06:51:42Z Adlai: clhs muffle-warning
2015-03-25T06:51:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_muffle.htm
2015-03-25T06:52:30Z Shinmera: aeth: There was no line of reasoning present. Beach asked for the term of a fallacy and I provided it.
2015-03-25T06:52:43Z Shinmera: aeth: You are literally reacting to nothing right now
2015-03-25T06:53:09Z beach: Shinmera: Indeed, that's the one.  Thanks!
2015-03-25T06:53:21Z axion: Adlai: thanks, but i tried that
2015-03-25T06:53:27Z aeth: Shinmera: The context was a bad faith assumption that I was (1) in some sort of argument or debate setting, (2) purposefully misrepresenting beach's statement rather than misinterpreting it, etc.
2015-03-25T06:54:24Z Shinmera: You can apply the terminology of fallacies in any context. They describe fallacious or invalid reasoning.
2015-03-25T06:54:44Z Shinmera: If there was such reasoning present then they are perfectly validly usable as terms.
2015-03-25T06:55:20Z Adlai: axion: maybe try specializing handler-bind on the specific warning class? you can catch it by (setf *break-on-signals* T)
2015-03-25T06:57:50Z axion: hmm
2015-03-25T07:00:58Z aeth: Shinmera: Looking at the context, beach said that the server is written in Common Lisp which implies that certain C language problems do not exist, i.e. let L := the use of common lisp as a programming language and V_C\L := vulnerabilties specific to C and not Lisp. L -> V_C\L
2015-03-25T07:01:35Z aeth: First, this was shown to not be entirely true by SAL9000, who pointed out the CFFI.
2015-03-25T07:02:13Z Shinmera: I don't give a shit
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2015-03-25T07:02:56Z Adlai suspects the only reason #lisp would entertain this discussion were if aeth were actually presenting his minimal-huntentoot-sandbox-cl
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2015-03-25T07:05:22Z aeth sighs
2015-03-25T07:05:30Z axion: Adlai: thanks, that works, and is ANSI compatible
2015-03-25T07:05:33Z aeth: And this is why people rely on "logical fallacies" rather than formal logic
2015-03-25T07:05:58Z Shinmera: aeth: If you want to continue riding your high horse and start pointless bullshit with random people, please do that somewhere else.
2015-03-25T07:06:18Z H4ns: who needs common sense if there is formal logic?
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2015-03-25T07:08:06Z Adlai: we all do, after the sorry mess gödel left from the latter
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2015-03-25T07:13:32Z aeth: Anyway, I'm just going to admit fault and say I improperly phrased my sentence and if you want to argue with me about common sense or w/e I think the offtopic channel is #lispcafe or something?
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2015-03-25T07:13:50Z Zhivago: Common sense is highly intuitive.
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2015-03-25T07:16:27Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-03-25T07:23:11Z pjb: akkad: This is actually the reason why I started to use Common Lisp intensively: to unload a mail server test program written in elisp to Common Lisp.  Playing with the absence of lexical binding (at the time), of package system, and of bignums (times!) only go so far.
2015-03-25T07:26:02Z pjb: akkad: also, you may always (push :lispworks *features*) in any implementation.  For editing code, it will mostly work.
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2015-03-25T07:27:44Z pjb: akkad: that said, it may be a legit feature request for slime, to use another face than comment-face for #+/#-outed code.  It would be nicer if it used eg. a different background color.
2015-03-25T07:28:29Z pjb: (it's not too easy to do in emacs unfortunately, I don't know any easy way to do that).
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2015-03-25T07:29:24Z pjb: The fact that GNU emacs is written in C (in big part) is really the biggest bummer of GNU emacs.
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2015-03-25T07:30:51Z pjb: If I had a time machine, I'd go back and tell RMS to write a better lisp and implement more of GNU emacs in lisp.  Perhaps, if I gathered enough violence, I'd go into beating him to use CL.
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2015-03-25T07:35:41Z Zhivago: Something cleaner that CL would be preferable.
2015-03-25T07:35:47Z Zhivago: s/that/than/
2015-03-25T07:36:21Z pjb: Isn't any good CL implementation cleaner than CL?
2015-03-25T07:36:34Z Zhivago: Not unless it is not a CL.
2015-03-25T07:36:50Z Shinmera: Apparently emacs (or a fork of it) is getting Scheme support, so you'll have your cleaner, for some values of clean.
2015-03-25T07:36:58Z pjb: Anyways, the question here is the toyish nature of emacs lisp.
2015-03-25T07:37:26Z ecraven: Shinmera: as I understand it, it will still all be elisp, just guile underneath interpreting the elisp
2015-03-25T07:37:44Z pjb: I mean, you can implement buffers in lisp, if you have a good lisp compiler with lexical variables, and good data structures.  You have to write it in C when your lisp is toyish and all variables are special.
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2015-03-25T07:38:59Z pjb: when you don't even have true structures in elisp!  (defstruct point x y) (make-poin :x 1 :y 2) --> [cl-struct-poin 1 2]  ;in 2015!
2015-03-25T07:39:19Z pjb: s/poin\>/point/
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2015-03-25T08:40:23Z axion: how can i map over a sequence, calling a function that expects 2 arguments - an element in the sequence, and a constant?
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2015-03-25T08:41:41Z Adlai: axion: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?around=2015-03-24T22:15:54&types=m#1427235354
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2015-03-25T08:43:51Z axion: hm
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2015-03-25T08:45:23Z axion: wanted to do something like (map 'vector '* seq 5), which obviously isn't going to work
2015-03-25T08:46:38Z Zhivago: If 5 were a sequence ... but what do you mean by that?
2015-03-25T08:47:12Z axion: right. i want to apply a function of 2 arguments to each element in a sequence, with the second argument always being '5'
2015-03-25T08:47:30Z Zhivago: #1=(5 . #1#) ?
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2015-03-25T08:48:23Z axion: i'm not familiar with whatever that is
2015-03-25T08:48:33Z Zhivago: I cannot be held responsible for that.
2015-03-25T08:48:57Z Adlai: clhs mapcar
2015-03-25T08:48:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2015-03-25T08:49:21Z Adlai: axion: 'function---a designator for a function that must take as many arguments as there are lists.'
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2015-03-25T08:49:43Z axion: right, but vector
2015-03-25T08:49:53Z axion: without inmtermediate conversion
2015-03-25T08:50:04Z Adlai: map works in a similar manner
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2015-03-25T08:50:59Z axion: but it returns a result containing the amount of the shortest sequence
2015-03-25T08:51:56Z Adlai doesn't understand what you mean; try working out (mapcar 'funcall '(car cdr consp) (make-list 3))
2015-03-25T08:52:23Z Zhivago: Why are you talking about mapcar rather than map?
2015-03-25T08:52:43Z Zhivago: (map 'vector '* seq  #1=(5 . #1#)) should just work
2015-03-25T08:53:39Z Zhivago: Oops -- (map 'vector '* '(1 2 3) '#1=(5 . #1#)) ; #(5 10 15)
2015-03-25T08:53:44Z Zhivago: There you go.
2015-03-25T08:55:36Z Adlai: axion: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.4.8.15 and http://l1sp.org/cl/2.4.8.16 may help
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2015-03-25T08:59:09Z axion: thanks
2015-03-25T08:59:55Z Adlai should probably be using the circular list trick too, :initial-elements is a pain to type out
2015-03-25T09:02:53Z Shinmera: You could also always just do (lambda (x) (funcall my-fun my-constant x))
2015-03-25T09:03:17Z Shinmera thinks a currying operator would be nice for cases like these.
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2015-03-25T09:32:48Z pjb: The circular list trick is not conforming.
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2015-03-25T09:33:35Z pjb: axion: the correct way to do it is to curry: (map 'vector (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:curry (function *) 5) #(1 2 3)) --> #(5 10 15)
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2015-03-25T10:13:13Z ehu: finally: cliki.net is back.
2015-03-25T10:14:47Z Shinmera: \o/
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2015-03-25T10:14:57Z Shinmera: Do you know what the actual problem / solution was?
2015-03-25T10:16:01Z ehu: the problem (supposedly) was an article which had been created with a zero-length title.
2015-03-25T10:16:11Z ehu: apparently that can cause trouble down the road.
2015-03-25T10:16:22Z ehu: I'll talk some more with Vladimir about it.
2015-03-25T10:16:42Z ehu: and see if we can either check the condition or recover gracefully while starting up.
2015-03-25T10:17:14Z Shinmera: Interesting that that went undiscovered for so long.
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2015-03-25T10:25:16Z Shinmera puts "Wiki software" on his todo
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2015-03-25T10:38:21Z splittist assumes, given the time given for Session IV of ELS, that Keynote 3 involves a time machine...
2015-03-25T10:38:39Z p_l: that would be quite the keynote
2015-03-25T10:38:45Z Shinmera: Alien technology
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2015-03-25T10:46:52Z splittist: Speaking of Alien technology, I wonder where cl-kanren-trs has gone.
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2015-03-25T13:14:35Z jackdaniel: is cl-cont on gitlab.common-lisp.net yet? I can't find it //wanted to update reference on wiki about continuations//
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2015-03-25T13:16:16Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's in darcs and i don't think there's a migration plan for darcs->gitlab yet
2015-03-25T13:16:48Z jackdaniel: and what would be project url then?
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2015-03-25T13:17:11Z Xach: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-cont/
2015-03-25T13:17:15Z Xach: not much to see there
2015-03-25T13:17:27Z jackdaniel: yes, i've met this
2015-03-25T13:17:35Z jackdaniel: tought it has moved or something
2015-03-25T13:17:36Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-03-25T13:30:10Z pjb: -
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2015-03-25T13:31:59Z hitecnologys: pjb: may I ask why you write that dash once in a while?
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2015-03-25T13:32:43Z jackdaniel: memos
2015-03-25T13:32:52Z jackdaniel: methinks
2015-03-25T13:33:53Z jackdaniel: is els conference dinner a banquett? or it will be later?
2015-03-25T13:33:56Z hitecnologys: Does it really need you to actually send those messages? Aren't commands to client more convenient?
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2015-03-25T13:34:36Z pjb: hitecnologys: when I read a big chunk, I mark thus the buffer so I don't have to read back too far.  C-r pjb and there I am.
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2015-03-25T13:34:53Z pjb: hitecnologys: I should probably write something in erc to do that.
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2015-03-25T13:36:03Z Shinmera: I'm surprised ERC doesn't insert read marks automatically.
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2015-03-25T13:36:30Z hitecnologys: pjb: yeah, I think doing that locally sounds more appropriate. It's not like I mind, I orient using your marks sometimes as well, but parsing text in order to find that dash is more difficult than simply storing position.
2015-03-25T13:36:51Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: should it?
2015-03-25T13:37:11Z Shinmera: I'm psure weechat and irssi both do by default.
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2015-03-25T13:37:59Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: they do, yes, but maybe ERC's developer had different philosophy in mind that didn't include read marks.
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2015-03-25T13:38:30Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Maybe. But I'm just saying exactly what I said: I'm surprised it doesn't.
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2015-03-25T13:39:10Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: right, I am as well. It's just something that isn't all that hard to implement so I see no reason why not to include it.
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2015-03-25T13:43:16Z mrkkrp: Hello, with `buildapp' what should I pass as `--asdf-path' parameter if I've installed all dependencies with Quicklisp? I've tried this: `buildapp --output myapp --asdf-path ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software --load-system some-system'. It says MISSING-COMPONENT, although it's been installed.
2015-03-25T13:43:27Z jackdaniel: (eq conference-dinner banquett) ; ?
2015-03-25T13:44:05Z Xach: mrkkrp: i use quicklisp to write out a system manifest file, then use --manifest-file to reference it
2015-03-25T13:44:32Z hitecnologys: Xach: you got my message or it was lost due to yesterday network storm?
2015-03-25T13:44:47Z Xach: mrkkrp: e.g. sbcl --non-interactive --load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp" --eval '(ql:quickload :my-app)' --eval '(ql:write-asdf-manifest-file "manifest.txt")'
2015-03-25T13:44:55Z Xach: then buildapp --manifest-file manifest.txt
2015-03-25T13:44:59Z Xach: hitecnologys: i got it, thanks
2015-03-25T13:45:14Z mrkkrp: Xach, cool, I will try this
2015-03-25T13:45:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: ah OK, I thought it was lost again.
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2015-03-25T13:45:54Z Xach: hitecnologys: no
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2015-03-25T13:46:39Z hitecnologys: Xach: sudden network shutdowns are annoying as hell. Thanks for information.
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2015-03-25T13:55:52Z mood: jackdaniel: The registration page talks about a "banquet", so I'd guess T
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2015-03-25T14:05:51Z jackdaniel: mood: thanks
2015-03-25T14:06:27Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: FWIW https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRrdw==
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2015-03-25T14:07:26Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: that is conclusive I think. Thanks.
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2015-03-25T14:13:52Z mrkkrp: Can I somehow instruct `buildapp' not to pass `argv' to entry function (it uses different lib to get and parse command line arguments)?
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2015-03-25T14:14:05Z Xach: mrkkrp: no.
2015-03-25T14:14:10Z mrkkrp: Xach, ok
2015-03-25T14:14:22Z Xach: mrkkrp: but buildapp does not parse the entry, so you could simply ignore it.
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2015-03-25T15:06:46Z spockokt: morning
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2015-03-25T15:10:46Z oleo: morning
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2015-03-25T15:13:03Z spockokt: how goes it oleo ?
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2015-03-25T15:13:58Z oleo: pretty ok spockokt and your self ?
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2015-03-25T15:14:46Z spockokt: im doing well
2015-03-25T15:15:37Z oleo: fine :)
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2015-03-25T16:03:54Z _z00l_: is it legal to pass NIL as :ELEMENT-TYPE to MAKE-ARRAY?  i couldn't figure out if it is allowed from the spec ..
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2015-03-25T16:05:37Z fe[nl]ix_: _z00l_: it's allowed but you'd never want to do that
2015-03-25T16:05:46Z Shinmera: The NIL type corresponds to nothing.
2015-03-25T16:05:53Z Shinmera: The type of NIL itself is called NULL.
2015-03-25T16:06:31Z _z00l_: fe[nl]ix_: do you have a verse from the spec?
2015-03-25T16:06:44Z Shinmera: And even if you specified the type NULL I don't see the point in only being able to store NILs in an array.
2015-03-25T16:07:24Z _z00l_: fe[nl]ix_: or how you conclude it from reading the spec ..
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2015-03-25T16:08:29Z mood: _z00l_: NIL is a type, MAKE-ARRAY accepts a type. Why would it not be allowed?
2015-03-25T16:08:49Z jackdaniel: easteregg from sbcl:
2015-03-25T16:08:52Z jackdaniel: An attempt to access an array of element-type NIL was made.  Congratulations!
2015-03-25T16:08:57Z antoszka: LOL
2015-03-25T16:09:05Z jackdaniel: but throws an error
2015-03-25T16:09:35Z fe[nl]ix_: an array with :element-type NIL has 0 dimensions, 0 size and cannot contain any element
2015-03-25T16:09:44Z Shinmera: Of course it would. How could it represent an object of no type?
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2015-03-25T16:10:03Z fe[nl]ix_: and IIRC because of a weird wording of the spec it's of type CL:STRING
2015-03-25T16:10:07Z jackdaniel: is cave empty of dragons same thing as cave empty of knights?
2015-03-25T16:10:14Z fe[nl]ix_: it's a subtype of STRING
2015-03-25T16:10:39Z jdz: there should be plenty of reading material on this topic in c.l.l
2015-03-25T16:10:40Z Bike: you can have an array of element type nil with nonzero size. welcome to ridiculosity
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2015-03-25T16:11:09Z Shinmera: I know. I'll use NIL-type arrays and user their length as numbers.
2015-03-25T16:11:13Z Shinmera: *use
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2015-03-25T16:12:08Z Bike: _z00l_: it's an arcane consequence of the upgrading rules: subtypes of BIT have to upgrade to subtypes of BIT, and subtypes of CHARACTER have to upgrade to etc., and NIL is a subtype of both.
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2015-03-25T16:16:20Z _z00l_: that does not seem like a convincing argument.  i will ask people who are better versed in CL.
2015-03-25T16:16:21Z _z00l_: thanks
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2015-03-25T16:16:29Z Shinmera: rude.
2015-03-25T16:16:49Z Bike: dude, what the hell?
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2015-03-25T16:17:05Z Shinmera: He already left.
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2015-03-25T16:18:05Z spockokt: Bike: he's off to see the wizard of clos
2015-03-25T16:18:14Z spockokt: or she
2015-03-25T16:18:22Z downloadico: the wizard? THE WIZARD?
2015-03-25T16:18:40Z spockokt: the-wizard
2015-03-25T16:19:00Z downloadico comes here to be abused by wizards :)
2015-03-25T16:19:04Z Bike: nobody's been that pointlessly rude to me in a while. how strange
2015-03-25T16:19:12Z Shinmera: downloadico: naughty.
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2015-03-25T16:19:27Z downloadico: lol
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2015-03-25T16:20:35Z downloadico: ls
2015-03-25T16:20:43Z spockokt: downloadico: everything is gone
2015-03-25T16:20:53Z downloadico: . o O (oops not a shell)
2015-03-25T16:21:24Z downloadico: Does Ingvar ever come around these parts anymore?  Anyone know?
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2015-03-25T16:23:43Z bipt: Bike, i found a similar claim in c.l.l, but i can't find a convincing source in the clhs
2015-03-25T16:24:35Z bipt: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm says "If typespec is bit, the result is type equivalent to bit." etc. but i would expect "is" to mean "equal to" and not "is a subtype of"
2015-03-25T16:25:01Z Bike: right, but it's that in conjunction with "The typespec is a subtype of (and possibly type equivalent to) the upgraded-typespec. "
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2015-03-25T16:25:30Z Bike: oh, let me try to remember, there's something about lattices
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2015-03-25T16:26:00Z Bike: here we go "Type upgrading implies a movement upwards in the type hierarchy lattice. A type is always a subtype of its upgraded array element type. Also, if a type Tx is a subtype of another type Ty, then the upgraded array element type of Tx must be a subtype of the upgraded array element type of Ty. Two disjoint types can be upgraded to the same type. "
2015-03-25T16:26:05Z Bike: clhs 15.1.2.1
2015-03-25T16:26:06Z specbot: Array Upgrading: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm
2015-03-25T16:27:20Z Bike: of course, as is this is uncomputable and a number of other nasty things, but that's what it says. ccl and i think everything that isn't sbcl ignores this and makes (u-a-e-t nil) => T or something, and nothing explodes
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2015-03-25T16:38:39Z bipt: Bike, thanks for the link, that makes sense. the cl type system never fails to surprise me :-)
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2015-03-25T16:48:41Z didi: Is there a consensus for the separator in packages within packages names? e.g. I have a project named "foo", a package named "foo" and a package named "foo/bar" which only makes sense for project "foo".
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2015-03-25T16:49:35Z Shinmera: ASDF and SLIME use slashes, but I've seen dots being used the post.
2015-03-25T16:49:49Z bipt: didi, hierarchical packages use dots as separators
2015-03-25T16:49:57Z Shinmera: *the most
2015-03-25T16:50:31Z didi: Shinmera, bipt: Thank you.
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2015-03-25T17:25:27Z dim: well some use / as iolib and asdf and uiop, at least
2015-03-25T17:27:32Z Shinmera: That's what I said.
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2015-03-25T17:32:11Z jasom: didi: asdf3 has some facilities for systems that use slash as the heirarchal separator
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2015-03-25T17:32:55Z didi: jasom: Ah, this is an important piece of information.
2015-03-25T17:32:57Z jasom: there was a mini-flamewar here between Faré and someone else (pjb maybe?) about it a while back
2015-03-25T17:33:16Z jasom: dots vs. slashes
2015-03-25T17:34:03Z jasom: And at one point quicklisp couldn't have systems with slashes in their names
2015-03-25T17:34:09Z jasom: (I think that's fixed now, but not sure)
2015-03-25T17:34:53Z dim: I think there's something wrong with ccl 1.10 and / in package names
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2015-03-25T17:39:00Z jasom: It would be interesting to try and put something with a * in it in quicklisp
2015-03-25T17:39:38Z jasom: at one point sbcl couldn't handle physical pathnames with a * and ccl could do it via \* but ccl then couldn't have physical pathnames with a backslash
2015-03-25T17:39:54Z jasom: both are fixed now
2015-03-25T17:40:38Z jasom wrote a tool for svn to git conversion in lisp, and yes there were files both with an asterisk and a backslash in the svn repository he tried it on
2015-03-25T17:41:17Z Shinmera: Let's look at some actual data. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/9M#
2015-03-25T17:41:19Z Shinmera: didi: ^
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2015-03-25T17:41:52Z jasom: hmm nearly all of the slash ones are Faré's
2015-03-25T17:42:14Z Shinmera: And some of the slash ones are just /1 or /test or something like that, so not really significant.
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2015-03-25T17:43:01Z jasom: Shinmera: though you don't list uiop on there
2015-03-25T17:43:16Z Shinmera: Hm. Hold on.
2015-03-25T17:44:21Z Shinmera: Agh, that data is all wrong. Sorry.
2015-03-25T17:44:26Z Shinmera screwed up
2015-03-25T17:44:54Z Shinmera: I looked at the dependencies rather than the provisions.
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2015-03-25T17:46:16Z Shinmera: I don't think quicklisp provides information on which systems provide which packages, so I'd need more time to grep that together.
2015-03-25T17:46:41Z pjb` is now known as pjb
2015-03-25T17:48:09Z jasom: Shinmera: I agree that the majority use dot though; I think outside of xcvb I didn't see any slashes until asdf3
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2015-03-25T17:51:44Z Shinmera: Time to download all of quicklisp.
2015-03-25T17:54:16Z jasom: heh
2015-03-25T17:54:26Z LiamH: todo
2015-03-25T17:54:27Z jasom just caught up on the sbcl-devel QUIT thread
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2015-03-25T18:50:54Z Xach: qlmapper can help!
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2015-03-25T18:52:21Z Shinmera: Too late! https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TkRreA==
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2015-03-25T18:54:17Z Shinmera discovered some files with undecodable octet-sequences in the process.
2015-03-25T18:55:48Z Xach: I think that approach will bust with hu.dwim stuff perhaps.
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2015-03-25T18:56:14Z Shinmera: It did yes.
2015-03-25T18:56:19Z Shinmera shakes fist at custom defpackage macros
2015-03-25T18:57:01Z Xach: That's why I load it all!
2015-03-25T18:58:15Z Shinmera: Doesn't that clash horribly if you don't load it one by one?
2015-03-25T18:58:54Z Shinmera: One by one in separate images I mean.
2015-03-25T18:59:10Z Xach: I do load it one by one in separate images
2015-03-25T18:59:13Z Xach: That's what qlmapper does
2015-03-25T18:59:31Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-03-25T19:02:21Z Shinmera: Using a primitive sample of 756 package names, we have 237 with dots and 35 with slashes.
2015-03-25T19:03:45Z Shinmera: There's even package names with ||. Scary.
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2015-03-25T19:05:14Z jasom: Shinmera: as in || or the empty-string?
2015-03-25T19:06:15Z Xach considers writing 'foo||bar to foil regex-based source processing
2015-03-25T19:06:44Z didi: Is it possible to create a package at runtime? e.g. I have a library that uses FFI and it works by, when asked, loading foreign libraries and making foreign library specific packages with exported symbols from foreign functions.
2015-03-25T19:06:48Z Shinmera: jasom: as in, symbols |foo|
2015-03-25T19:07:11Z Shinmera: Xach: Wouldn't foil mine.
2015-03-25T19:07:25Z Shinmera: clhs make-package
2015-03-25T19:07:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm
2015-03-25T19:08:28Z didi: Shinmera: Ah, thank you.
2015-03-25T19:08:45Z Shinmera: jasom: the list is |clozure-mib| |asn.1/clozure-mib| |franz-mib| |asn.1/franz-mib| |ianaiftype-mib| |asn.1/ianaiftype-mib| |lispworks-mib| |asn.1/lispworks-mib| |snmpv2-conf| |asn.1/snmpv2-conf| |snmpv2-mib| |asn.1/snmpv2-mib| |snmpv2-smi| |asn.1/snmpv2-smi| |snmpv2-tc| |asn.1/snmpv2-tc| |snmpv2-tm| |asn.1/snmpv2-tm|
2015-03-25T19:08:58Z Shinmera: this excludes forms that my primitive attempt did not pick up on.
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2015-03-25T19:09:16Z Shinmera: which are, by the package count, quite a few.
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2015-03-25T19:15:38Z Xach has a burning desire to more fully exploit system-as-database
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2015-03-25T19:16:28Z Xach: not defsystem system, but cl system.
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2015-03-25T19:17:40Z Shinmera: Having lots of project metadata would indeed be very nice.
2015-03-25T19:17:44Z didi: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/0c5ee002 is the my idea of a use case. Does it make sense?
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2015-03-25T19:18:27Z Bicyclidine: load-ffi-library would be hella involved, but yeah it's possible.
2015-03-25T19:19:00Z Xach: Shinmera: i don't just mean project metadata, but a unified interface to query everything the system knows
2015-03-25T19:19:11Z didi: Bicyclidine: Ah, cool.
2015-03-25T19:19:27Z Bicyclidine: off the top of my head, sexml is conceptually similar in that it makes a system based on an xml schema; you might take a look https://github.com/madnificent/SEXML/blob/master/sexml.lisp
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2015-03-25T19:19:30Z Xach: like "what are the functions that take two arguments whose name starts with 'def' that are external"
2015-03-25T19:19:31Z Bicyclidine: it just uses defpackage though
2015-03-25T19:19:36Z Xach: but with a nice query syntax
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2015-03-25T19:19:52Z Shinmera: Xach: That would be even nicer of course.
2015-03-25T19:19:53Z Bicyclidine: oh, no, it has make-packages too.
2015-03-25T19:19:54Z Xach: "how many functions take more than three arguments"
2015-03-25T19:19:58Z Shinmera does not dare to dream that big
2015-03-25T19:20:08Z didi: Bicyclidine: Oh, great, I will take a look, thank you.
2015-03-25T19:20:09Z Xach: "what functions are external in some package other than their home package"
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2015-03-25T19:20:23Z Xach: "what packages have a docstring that starts with 'private:'"
2015-03-25T19:20:24Z Xach: etc
2015-03-25T19:20:36Z Xach: i know how to get all those answers, but a uniform query syntax would be keen
2015-03-25T19:21:14Z dim: I know of a query syntax... but I don't suppose you would like that one specifically ;-)
2015-03-25T19:21:41Z Xach: a sort of structured query syntax, or language?
2015-03-25T19:21:48Z dim: something like that
2015-03-25T19:21:58Z dim: it's been proven turing complete btw, in quite a nice way
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2015-03-25T19:22:08Z Xach: i think this could be a good excuse to learn some other techniques
2015-03-25T19:22:14Z novemberist: Should slime automatically indent single semicolon comments (on the same line as code) ? Because it properly indents everything else but that
2015-03-25T19:22:15Z Xach: prolog interface to cl?
2015-03-25T19:22:15Z Shinmera: Great, another accidentally turing complete language.
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2015-03-25T19:22:47Z jasom: novemberist: I think double semicolon is same line as code
2015-03-25T19:22:48Z dim: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Cyclic_Tag_System --- sql is turing complete
2015-03-25T19:23:13Z dim: Xach: picolisp has that, prolog embedded
2015-03-25T19:23:14Z pjb: b
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2015-03-25T19:23:22Z Bicyclidine: didi: i think the main issue is that C headers are not a great API specification. it would be pretty nice to have, though, i recently spent way too many hours basically hand translating an API i had two different descriptions of :(
2015-03-25T19:23:28Z dim: Xach:  http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#pilog
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2015-03-25T19:23:50Z Xach: dim: cool
2015-03-25T19:24:21Z didi: Bicyclidine: Yeah, I agree. Fortunately I do have introspection information from these C libraries.
2015-03-25T19:24:22Z dim: there's even an embedded transactional database that can be queried with this kind of prolog in lisp, IIRC
2015-03-25T19:24:26Z didi: Bicyclidine: :-)
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2015-03-25T19:24:30Z jasom: novemberist: see chls 2.4.4.2.1
2015-03-25T19:24:34Z jasom: clhs 2.4.4.2.1
2015-03-25T19:24:35Z specbot: Use of Single Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddba.htm
2015-03-25T19:24:39Z Bicyclidine: ah, some specific kinds of libraries. yeah that makes sense. g'luck
2015-03-25T19:24:46Z didi: Bicyclidine: Thank you!
2015-03-25T19:24:51Z novemberist: jasom: also doesn't indent for me. indentation only seems to work on newlines
2015-03-25T19:25:10Z dim: at http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#dbase actually
2015-03-25T19:25:22Z Xach: novemberist: i don't think it ever did that
2015-03-25T19:25:28Z jasom: novemberist: I don't know he default emacs binding to indent...
2015-03-25T19:25:31Z Xach: novemberist: i've only seen it work on lines by itself
2015-03-25T19:25:35Z dim: I almost tried picolisp before Common Lisp, it's quite interesting
2015-03-25T19:26:02Z jasom: but ;; indents to where the form would be
2015-03-25T19:26:45Z jasom: and ; indents to column 40
2015-03-25T19:26:54Z novemberist: on a newline everything indents fine, on the same line as the code, nothing indents for me
2015-03-25T19:27:24Z jasom: novemberist: ah, yes, it does only indent comments that begin a line
2015-03-25T19:27:39Z jasom: which is mildly annoying if you use the ; a lot.
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2015-03-25T19:28:22Z jasom: novemberist: I completely misread your initial question (sorry)
2015-03-25T19:28:55Z dim: novemberist: use paredit, it does what you want
2015-03-25T19:29:09Z dim: I have '; runs the command paredit-semicolon'
2015-03-25T19:29:23Z dim: and the behavior matches what you're wanting here, mostly
2015-03-25T19:29:44Z novemberist: dim: i do use it. but it doesn't by default right?
2015-03-25T19:29:46Z Xach: I use paredit. Did you add the ; binding extra?
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2015-03-25T19:30:01Z dim: let me have a look then...
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2015-03-25T19:30:14Z novemberist: unless my .emacs is messed up somehow
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2015-03-25T19:30:41Z dim: nothing special in my setup for that apparently
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2015-03-25T19:30:50Z dim: (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook 'enable-paredit-mode)
2015-03-25T19:30:53Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L81
2015-03-25T19:30:55Z dim: ;; manually remove that major annoyance.
2015-03-25T19:30:55Z dim: (define-key paredit-mode-map (kbd "M-<up>") 'windmove-up)
2015-03-25T19:30:55Z dim: (define-key paredit-mode-map (kbd "M-<down>") 'windmove-down)
2015-03-25T19:30:57Z dim: that's my setup
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2015-03-25T19:31:41Z novemberist: are you sure the indentation is a feature of paredit and not of slime?
2015-03-25T19:31:59Z dim: well paredit claims the key binding, that's all I know for sure
2015-03-25T19:32:43Z novemberist: M-x paredit-semicolon does the same as inserting a semicolon for me
2015-03-25T19:32:57Z novemberist: i.e. it doesn't indent if not on a newline
2015-03-25T19:33:22Z Shinmera: It never did indent unless on a newline for me.
2015-03-25T19:33:34Z emaczen: Is macrop typical in an implementation? I am using SBCL and it does appear as a slime completion but it does not appear to be in the hyperspec.
2015-03-25T19:33:44Z Bicyclidine: macrop...?
2015-03-25T19:33:46Z novemberist: dim claims it does ;)
2015-03-25T19:34:08Z novemberist: and i think it should really
2015-03-25T19:34:17Z Shinmera never uses ; anyway, only ;;
2015-03-25T19:34:22Z dim: novemberist: try positionning at end-of-line then hit M-;
2015-03-25T19:34:34Z jasom: that worked for me
2015-03-25T19:34:38Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: there's a symbol by that name in sb-walker, but it's not a function or bound or nothin.
2015-03-25T19:34:39Z dim: M-; runs the command paredit-comment-dwim
2015-03-25T19:34:43Z Shinmera sometimes thinks ; is a smart idea, then remembers that editing the line slightly will make the comment be misaligned
2015-03-25T19:34:47Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: do you want to see if a symbol is bound as a macro?
2015-03-25T19:34:48Z novemberist: dim: for me too, thank you so much
2015-03-25T19:34:59Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: Yes
2015-03-25T19:35:03Z dim: so it's M-; rather than ; I misremembered
2015-03-25T19:35:08Z Bicyclidine: emaczen: just check (macro-function symbol)
2015-03-25T19:35:09Z dim: sorry about wrong instructions
2015-03-25T19:35:33Z emaczen: Bicyclidine: thanks
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2015-03-25T19:35:38Z novemberist: no problem. thank's for helping me out.
2015-03-25T19:35:49Z dim: Shinmera: IIRC you can realign with M-; again quite easily
2015-03-25T19:35:54Z dim: or just use M-x align
2015-03-25T19:36:05Z Shinmera: I don't want to have to do that every time I edit a line.
2015-03-25T19:36:06Z jasom: you could probably bind ; to do a paredit-semicolon followed by paredit-comment-dwim
2015-03-25T19:36:26Z Shinmera shrugs
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2015-03-25T19:38:18Z jasom: and the feature does ultimately come from emacs it looks like (comment-dwim is in newcomment.el)
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2015-03-25T19:42:02Z novemberist: having comments on the same line as code does seem to interfere with paredit a bit though, so i might refrain from using them alltogether
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2015-03-25T19:46:54Z Xach: I haven't seen them very much these days
2015-03-25T19:46:58Z Xach: Seemed more common in olden days
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2015-03-25T19:54:00Z jasom: Well it saves paper
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2015-03-25T19:55:31Z novemberist: and it's aesthetically pleasing
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2015-03-25T19:58:02Z Shinmera: I'll disagree on that.
2015-03-25T20:00:11Z novemberist: i think it makes sense to have them on the same line because lines in lisp code tend to be rather short. in mine at least
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2015-03-25T20:00:37Z novemberist: but enough philosophizing about comments ;)
2015-03-25T20:00:54Z Shinmera: And I like to see the comment aligned on the same height as the thing it's commenting.
2015-03-25T20:01:09Z novemberist: fair enough :)
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2015-03-25T20:04:00Z mood: Data point: M-q aligns single-semicolon comments when I press it while on a "code-part" of the sexp, but not when the cursor is in the comment itself
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2015-03-25T20:07:59Z novemberist: mood: same here. however it still breaks paredit for me this way.
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2015-03-25T20:27:29Z dim: how to have C-c C-l in slime use the proper external format?
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2015-03-25T20:32:30Z hitecnologys: Why hasn't the topic been updated to inform people that SBCL 1.2.9 is out?
2015-03-25T20:34:27Z Bicyclidine changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.9
2015-03-25T20:34:40Z Bicyclidine: hitecnologys: we don't have +t, so anybody can do it.
2015-03-25T20:34:42Z hitecnologys: Neat, thanks.
2015-03-25T20:35:20Z hitecnologys: Bicyclidine: oh, I see. Still, I'd rather not do it because I'll definitely screw it up.
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2015-03-25T21:46:15Z dim: is it possible to build a "local" macro (lexically scoped)?
2015-03-25T21:47:12Z Bicyclidine: Macrolet?
2015-03-25T21:47:44Z dim: oh wow, exactly
2015-03-25T21:47:46Z dim: thanks
2015-03-25T21:48:11Z clintm: apparently pronounced "macro-LAY" instead of "macro-LET", according to Let over Lambda.
2015-03-25T21:48:41Z jasom: clintm: I'm pretty sure that's a joke
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2015-03-25T21:50:04Z clintm: I wouldn't know.  I've never talked to other lispers, which now that I say it sounds crazy.
2015-03-25T21:50:15Z clintm: I really need to get to one of the conferences.
2015-03-25T21:50:15Z jasom: clintm: I haven't either
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2015-03-25T21:50:45Z jasom: My high school AI class was taught in lisp, but I don't think the instructor was a lisper.
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2015-03-25T21:53:27Z clintm: jasom: AI taught in high school... damn.  I would have cut off a foot to have that in my HS.
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2015-03-25T21:57:16Z jasom was lucky with his schooling
2015-03-25T21:57:29Z jasom: I'm learning how lucky now that my kids are entering public school...
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2015-03-25T22:01:54Z hitecnologys still isn't sure how to pronounce CDR correctly
2015-03-25T22:03:08Z emaczen: I'm having troubling compiling drakma? Is this to be expected?
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2015-03-25T22:03:19Z emaczen: I am using quicklisp
2015-03-25T22:03:51Z hitecnologys: emaczen: what kind of troubling?
2015-03-25T22:04:05Z emaczen: COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while
2015-03-25T22:04:05Z emaczen: compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "babel" "src" "enc-unicode">
2015-03-25T22:04:05Z emaczen:    [Condition of type UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR]
2015-03-25T22:04:21Z emaczen: Does that help?
2015-03-25T22:04:35Z hitecnologys: Not exactly.
2015-03-25T22:04:41Z hitecnologys: And don't paste here.
2015-03-25T22:04:44Z mood: emaczen: There's probably a more helpful error message in the REPL
2015-03-25T22:05:24Z emaczen: (during macroexpansion of (DEFINE-UTF-16 :UTF-16))
2015-03-25T22:05:44Z hitecnologys: That doesn't help either.
2015-03-25T22:05:53Z hitecnologys: You need to be more verbose.
2015-03-25T22:06:52Z emaczen: Ok, so the REPL is catching a bunch of errors related to '(BABEL-ENCODINGS::DEFINE-UCS :UTF-32 4)'
2015-03-25T22:07:50Z emaczen: Every error is "in: DEFINE-UTF-16 :UTF-16"
2015-03-25T22:07:58Z novemberist: (ql:quickload :drakma) finished without problems for me, just tried it
2015-03-25T22:08:13Z mood: mearnsh: What implementation are you using?
2015-03-25T22:08:18Z mood: oh, sorry
2015-03-25T22:08:21Z mood: emaczen: ^
2015-03-25T22:08:25Z emaczen: sbcl
2015-03-25T22:08:46Z emaczen: version 1.2.4-1
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2015-03-25T22:09:07Z hitecnologys: Which OS?
2015-03-25T22:09:10Z emaczen: Fedora
2015-03-25T22:09:17Z novemberist: did you do a (ql:update-all-dists) already?
2015-03-25T22:09:33Z novemberist: and update-client
2015-03-25T22:09:42Z novemberist: just to make sure
2015-03-25T22:09:45Z emaczen: I'll try that, but I actually reinstalled quicklisp just to be sure.
2015-03-25T22:10:12Z novemberist: sbcl 1.2.4 is not very recent though
2015-03-25T22:11:13Z hitecnologys: I don't recall any problems with drakma on it.
2015-03-25T22:12:07Z emaczen: I'm going to try updating my sbcl version then.
2015-03-25T22:12:13Z emaczen: How fast does SBCL change?
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2015-03-25T22:12:58Z novemberist: once per month roughly, i would say
2015-03-25T22:13:36Z novemberist: 1.2.9 is the most recent version
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2015-03-25T22:14:51Z novemberist: what happens when you only quickload babel?
2015-03-25T22:15:19Z novemberist: since this is the library that seems to be causing errors
2015-03-25T22:15:44Z emaczen: novemberist: what is babel?
2015-03-25T22:16:16Z emaczen: novemberist: When I try quickloading babel, I get teh same set of errors
2015-03-25T22:16:16Z novemberist: don't know, but apparently drakma depends on it
2015-03-25T22:16:31Z novemberist: some unicode stuff i guess
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2015-03-25T22:18:48Z novemberist: in your terminal what is the output of "echo $LANG" ?
2015-03-25T22:19:05Z novemberist: maybe your locale isn't set properly or something
2015-03-25T22:20:29Z emaczen: I'm using slime
2015-03-25T22:20:49Z emaczen: novemberist: I'm in the process of updating all my Fedora packages
2015-03-25T22:21:25Z novemberist: ok, fingers crossed
2015-03-25T22:21:54Z emaczen: haah yea
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2015-03-25T22:23:33Z novemberist: i just thought utf8 might not be properly configured on your system, since you were getting error messages related to it...so if updating your packages doesn't help, you might wanna check your system's locale settings
2015-03-25T22:24:24Z PuercoPop: hitecnologys: I've heard it pronounce 'cudder'.
2015-03-25T22:25:02Z PuercoPop: one thing that I found weird is when I heard CLOS be pronounced as 'See-LOS'
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2015-03-25T22:27:07Z novemberist: those are the things that lonely lispers usually only ever pronouce in their heads ;)
2015-03-25T22:27:35Z hitecnologys: PuercoPop: that's approximately how I pronounce it but you can never be sure you're doing it right until you hear it from native speaker.
2015-03-25T22:27:35Z sebboh: Is there some sort of tool that allows you to use [tab] completion in the repl, for example, on a :named-argument or names of defvars, etc?  Names of symbols, obviously...
2015-03-25T22:27:48Z hitecnologys: sebboh: there's linedit.
2015-03-25T22:28:05Z sebboh: is that the technology inside rlwrap?
2015-03-25T22:28:29Z hitecnologys: Not exactly.
2015-03-25T22:28:44Z novemberist: you mean the repl if you are not using emacs/slime?
2015-03-25T22:29:51Z sebboh: novemberist: emacs/slime has that?  (Hell, I've never even got M-. to work consistently...)
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2015-03-25T22:30:24Z novemberist: yes, it does
2015-03-25T22:30:45Z novemberist: mine uses slime-fuzzy-complete i think
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2015-03-25T22:31:37Z novemberist: also works fine with auto-complete
2015-03-25T22:32:35Z novemberist: unless you have a really good ide, get into using emacs...so much more fun!
2015-03-25T22:32:56Z hitecnologys: I can confirm that it works fine out of the box. Although, some wizzardry with autocompletion is necessary for full-featured experience.
2015-03-25T22:33:15Z hitecnologys: novemberist: is there an IDE for CL besides Emacs with SLIME?
2015-03-25T22:33:16Z sebboh: Ok.  Well I have started building a replacement vm in which I intend to get slime/swank/whatever working.  (My current machine can't have downtime and something is wrong with it that makes package.el fail a lot, so I haven't altered anything in a long time out of fear.)
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2015-03-25T22:33:44Z hitecnologys: Why can't it be shot down?
2015-03-25T22:33:51Z novemberist: hitecnologys: i don't know how the commercial solutions (lispworks, allegro) look like...don't they come with an ide of sorts?
2015-03-25T22:33:51Z hitecnologys: s/shot/shut/
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2015-03-25T22:34:56Z hitecnologys: novemberist: right, they do. I've heard they're good but I was mostly after something open source into which I can hack, if necessary.
2015-03-25T22:35:08Z sebboh: hitecnologys: it's my work computer.  It's an effing mess that is about to collapse under its own weight.  Today I made a fresh computer, with lessons learned from this one in mind...
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2015-03-25T22:35:59Z hitecnologys: sebboh: well, I use VM for not polluting my environment and I suggest you do the same, plus FS-level snapshots around all that, and you should be good.
2015-03-25T22:36:02Z sebboh: (never even installed the disto's emacs in it, went straight to git.  Built xwidgets branch successfully, woot!)  None of this is important. :)
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2015-03-25T22:36:49Z sebboh: The new vm does support FS-level snapshots, btrfs.
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2015-03-25T22:37:07Z sebboh: (Not sure how or when I should take such a snapshot, much less how/when to restore one!)
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2015-03-25T22:37:31Z hitecnologys: Well, you build a clean-state machine first, then take snapshot.
2015-03-25T22:37:38Z novemberist: there's also slimv, if you are the vim-type...but i never got it to work on my machine
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2015-03-25T22:38:10Z hitecnologys: If you suddenly need to change it's profile, you won't end up with large abount of time wasted on removal of the software and rosolving of conflicts.
2015-03-25T22:38:25Z hitecnologys: novemberist: I've got it working right now. Why?
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2015-03-25T22:38:49Z sebboh: hitecnologys: As a debian user, my machine is ALWAYS in a clean state.  It's emacs that frequently isn't.  And that's just my own .emacs, you know?  I probably misrepresented my problem.  My real problem was only ever "oh, yes, slime.  Been meaning to get that working.  Haven't."
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2015-03-25T22:40:01Z novemberist: don't know, i'm on arch and i think my vim version was always too recent for slimv to work properly. so i started to learn emacs...and never looked back at vim ever since ;)
2015-03-25T22:40:05Z hitecnologys: sebboh: well, then you're probably doing it wrong. I don't know how it's on Debian, but you're encouraged to use emerge on Gentoo to install things.
2015-03-25T22:40:49Z hitecnologys: novemberist: my VIM is built form freshest code out there and it works fine.
2015-03-25T22:41:37Z novemberist: hitecnologys: with slimv-0.9.12?
2015-03-25T22:41:49Z sebboh: hitecnologys: I think you misread something.  Everything except my /home is always managed by my package manager, and it's a proper package manager.
2015-03-25T22:42:21Z hitecnologys: novemberist: 0.9.13.
2015-03-25T22:42:24Z sebboh: I don't even put anything in /opt.  There's ~/bin for that.
2015-03-25T22:43:51Z novemberist: hitecnologys: might try it later, but i think there's no way back to vim now anyways. simply not enough time in one life to master two text editors ;)
2015-03-25T22:44:23Z hitecnologys: sebboh: that's good. But then your filesystem is still polluted by all those files left after packages being deleted (like in /etc or /var) and you never know what they're going to cause next time. Besides, sometimes it's pain to rebuild somethings and remove them since they cause some weird blocks on other packages or something that prevents their removal or upgrade.
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2015-03-25T22:44:52Z hitecnologys: sebboh: that's what I meant by clean state: initial state of system with no unnecessary packages installed.
2015-03-25T22:45:04Z novemberist: sebboh: anyways, getting a basic slime setup working should be very straightforward, especially if you use sbcl
2015-03-25T22:45:14Z hitecnologys: novemberist: well, there's evil mode.
2015-03-25T22:45:42Z novemberist: hitecnologys: i kind of like emacs' keybindings i gotta admit
2015-03-25T22:46:01Z hitecnologys: Bleh, I'm repeating myself. The second sometimes shouldn't be there.
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2015-03-25T22:46:25Z hitecnologys: novemberist: well, then you're probably fine with Emacs. Although, they seem hellish to me.
2015-03-25T22:47:06Z hitecnologys: Anyways, I think I need to take a nap.
2015-03-25T22:47:18Z hitecnologys: Good night, #lisp.
2015-03-25T22:47:23Z sebboh: hitecnologys: why would your package manager leave files from uninstalled packages in /etc unless you ask it to? :)  ...You might like Debian.  </distrowars>
2015-03-25T22:47:29Z novemberist: hitecnologys: i am, i was just suggesting it in case sebboh prefers vim. so that might be an alternative to consider for him
2015-03-25T22:47:31Z sebboh: Good night, hitecnologys.
2015-03-25T22:47:45Z novemberist: hitecnologys: good night
2015-03-25T22:47:46Z sebboh: novemberist: yes, I use sbcl.
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2015-03-25T22:48:36Z sebboh: and emacs.  I don't know vim.  I've been meaning to learn evil-mode though, because I've heard it's nice.
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2015-03-25T22:49:31Z novemberist: well it's nice for ex-vim users, but if you don't know vim, i would go with the emacs keybindings if i were you
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2015-03-25T22:50:43Z mood: Or just give it a try, see if you like the idea
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2015-03-25T22:50:59Z mood: Evil does have a lot of rough edges though, if you're doing more than just text editing
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2015-03-25T22:55:35Z sebboh: You know how, in emacs, "F3" or "C-x (" starts a keyboard macro recording and binds the result to F4?  One day, I'd like to alter that so the function binds the result to the same key that called it. (for some major mode, anyway...)  Then I'd like to bind that function to every key.  (And have it switch to a regular global map for the duration of the macro recording.)  Then, I could just go down the line, pushing each key, and then tell
2015-03-25T22:55:35Z sebboh: emacs what *I* think that key should do, and it would remember.  ...
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2015-03-25T22:56:58Z sebboh: Escape: quit.  Save?  F2.  etc. :P
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2015-03-25T23:11:38Z Xach: sebboh: sounds like rich discussion for a different channel
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