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2015-03-24T00:02:47Z drmeister: pjb Bicyclidine :  I think I have Cleavir environments integrated properly with Clasp now.   Man - that was a pain in the backside.
2015-03-24T00:03:15Z drmeister: I said some things that were wrong.  I didn't need to expose the Clasp symbol macro expander - I just use MACROEXPAND
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2015-03-24T00:03:50Z drmeister: It took me a while to figure out that beach's SYMBOL-MACRO-EXPANSION returns the expansion - not the expander function.
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2015-03-24T00:04:32Z drmeister: And to determine if MACROEXPAND-1 should return NIL or T for the second argument I compare what SYMBOL-MACRO-EXPANSION returns to what I give it - if they are the same then there was no expansion.
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2015-03-24T00:05:05Z drmeister: In between talking to you and figuring this out there was lots of banging of head on table due to infinite loops and whatnot.
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2015-03-24T00:05:45Z drmeister: Now CLOS is compiling and I can see that macrolet expansions are being applied to SETF forms
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2015-03-24T00:45:23Z marsjaninzmarsa: hi
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2015-03-24T00:46:25Z marsjaninzmarsa: how to easy print object in clisp repl? I'm looking for something similar to var_dump...
2015-03-24T00:46:40Z pjb: (print object)
2015-03-24T00:47:03Z pjb: But if you would really rather inspect the object, then use: (inspect object)
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2015-03-24T00:47:19Z Xach: marsjaninzmarsa: DESCRIBE often shows a lot of info about an object.
2015-03-24T00:47:29Z Xach: marsjaninzmarsa: what exactly it does is implementation-dependent.
2015-03-24T00:47:43Z marsjaninzmarsa: pjb: thanks!
2015-03-24T00:47:44Z Xach: marsjaninzmarsa: what is var_dump? what does it print?
2015-03-24T00:48:26Z marsjaninzmarsa: Xach: something like inspect. :)
2015-03-24T00:48:31Z Bicyclidine: it's php, its version of a human readable printer. it includes type information but other than that print should be fine
2015-03-24T00:49:04Z marsjaninzmarsa: ok, how to I can inspect subobject of object? :x
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2015-03-24T00:49:15Z Bicyclidine: print prints sub objects
2015-03-24T00:50:12Z marsjaninzmarsa: hmm, i have something like this: http://pastebin.aquilenet.fr/?8740aa9737a2bd9c#zC4ZnolSh+LSSEnmkW/Nn1CSRQwF+yXq54J2sjt12KE=
2015-03-24T00:50:22Z marsjaninzmarsa: I'm wanna look into users hashtable
2015-03-24T00:50:29Z marsjaninzmarsa: in repl.
2015-03-24T00:50:43Z Bicyclidine: This is from describe?
2015-03-24T00:51:05Z Bicyclidine: You could do (describe (slot-value object 'users)), maybe.
2015-03-24T00:51:26Z Xach: The slime inspector lets you move to sub-objects and back quite easily
2015-03-24T00:51:31Z Bicyclidine: another thing is that there is an actual inspector in slime
2015-03-24T00:51:45Z Bicyclidine: ...i did not know inspect was a function.
2015-03-24T00:51:51Z marsjaninzmarsa: Xach: yeah, but I must learn into slime first. ^^'
2015-03-24T00:51:55Z Xach: C-c I will pull it up.
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2015-03-24T00:52:10Z Xach: marsjaninzmarsa: worth it
2015-03-24T00:52:15Z marsjaninzmarsa: know
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2015-03-24T00:53:18Z marsjaninzmarsa: TeMPOraL and antoszka are trying to convince me for a long time...
2015-03-24T00:53:30Z marsjaninzmarsa: but I don't have lot of time. ^^'
2015-03-24T00:53:55Z Bicyclidine: well, the inspector's pretty easy to use. C-c I, then the arrow keys and enter.
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2015-03-24T00:56:50Z marsjaninzmarsa: umm
2015-03-24T00:56:59Z marsjaninzmarsa: Bicyclidine:  When attempting to read the slot's value (slot-value), the slot USERS is
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2015-03-24T00:57:00Z marsjaninzmarsa:   missing from the object #<CL-IRC:CHANNEL #czarnobyl {B7D6611}>.
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2015-03-24T00:57:35Z Bicyclidine: marsjaninzmarsa: that just means the slot hasn't been filled yet. i haven't used cl-irc in quite a while but i imagine there's some function equivalent to /names to use.
2015-03-24T00:58:13Z marsjaninzmarsa: ou, it is!
2015-03-24T00:58:16Z marsjaninzmarsa: thanks! :D
2015-03-24T00:58:40Z Bicyclidine: yeah, it's cl-irc:list-
2015-03-24T00:58:44Z Bicyclidine: i think.
2015-03-24T00:59:15Z marsjaninzmarsa: yep. :D
2015-03-24T00:59:23Z marsjaninzmarsa: my bad. :x
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2015-03-24T01:01:49Z marsjaninzmarsa: umm, it gives me string "NAMES #czarnobyl :\n" only... O.o
2015-03-24T01:02:26Z Bicyclidine: I'm sorry, but I don't remember how cl-irc works. It might be that he list- function returns that, but also sets the value of the slot of the channel.
2015-03-24T01:02:39Z marsjaninzmarsa: maybe...
2015-03-24T01:02:44Z marsjaninzmarsa: ok, thanks for help! :D
2015-03-24T01:02:49Z Bicyclidine: Something you could probably check via the inspector.
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2015-03-24T03:53:32Z drmeister: Does SBCL allow you to look at the values of special variables in different stack frames?
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2015-03-24T03:53:55Z drmeister: It seems to me that would be difficult to implement.
2015-03-24T03:54:06Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out where a special variable is getting set to NIL
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2015-03-24T03:54:36Z jasom: drmeister: set or bound?
2015-03-24T03:55:15Z drmeister: Bound - I never set it.   I'm asking more about how one would implement such a thing because this is in Clasp and I'd have to implement it.
2015-03-24T03:57:23Z drmeister: I have a special variable that I bind to an LLVM module and it becomes NIL at some point and drops into the debugger when a function tries to use the value.
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2015-03-24T04:00:19Z nyef: drmeister: Compile with (DEBUG 3) and then crawl backwards through the binding stack to find the binding and then look for the sentinel used for unwind-to-frame-and-call.
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2015-03-24T04:01:41Z drmeister: nyef: I would if I were in SBCL - what is a sentinel and what does unwind-to-frame-and-call do?
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2015-03-24T04:02:42Z nyef: With sufficiently high DEBUG, SBCL adds a "sentinel" value to the binding stack so that it can find the correct depth in the binding stack corresponding to some stack frame.
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2015-03-24T04:03:04Z nyef: Unwind-to-frame-and-call does what it says on the tin, but one of the inputs is the required binding stack depth.
2015-03-24T04:03:24Z nyef: ... If I'm remembering correctly, that is. It's been quite a while since last I messed with that part of the system.
2015-03-24T04:03:35Z nyef: It's used by the debugger for restart-frame and such.
2015-03-24T04:04:21Z drmeister: Does unwind-to-frame-and-call return the stack to the current state or does it leave it unperturbed?
2015-03-24T04:04:40Z nyef: It's a non-local exit.
2015-03-24T04:05:20Z nyef: It basically does an unwind to a specific stack frame and then does a tail-call.
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2015-03-24T04:06:45Z nyef: For what you're trying to do, though... Given that you know which variable is involved, and that it's being bound rather than set, it can only be via a direct reference in LET or a lambda list, or using PROGV.
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2015-03-24T04:07:50Z nyef: I'd consider starting with a textual search of your source tree, and then possibly instrumenting each binding with an assert, unless there's just far too many instances.
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2015-03-24T04:12:20Z drmeister: It's not that many - I've instrumented them all - it's still signaling the same error.  I've put a trap in the C++ function setf_symbolValue to trap it.  It's happening in Cleavir compiled code but not my bootstrapping code so it's not my compiler code that's doing it.  I think it's something to do with how I'm saving/restoring special variables when
2015-03-24T04:12:20Z drmeister: bindings to in and out of scope.
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2015-03-24T04:15:30Z White_Flame: yep
2015-03-24T04:15:39Z White_Flame: (wrong window)
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2015-03-24T04:18:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-24T04:22:17Z drmeister: Hey beach
2015-03-24T04:22:39Z beach: drmeister: Not sure if it was mentioned (I am just skimming the logs) but ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION takes an ENVIRONMENT argument, and it is specifically written that it can be used to distinguish between the compilation environment and the run-time environment.
2015-03-24T04:23:26Z beach: In other words, the Common Lisp HyperSpec recognizes that there might be more than one global environment.
2015-03-24T04:23:35Z drmeister: My problem today turned out to be macro expansion wasn't handling cleavir environments.    I also had to adapt it to handle cleavir environments for symbol macros.
2015-03-24T04:24:39Z drmeister: Yes - I'm going to have to think hard about functions that take environment arguments.
2015-03-24T04:26:22Z beach: For SICL, I decided to create an "intermediate layer" of functions that resemble the ones in the Common Lisp HyperSpec but that have a required environment argument.
2015-03-24T04:26:44Z beach: I'll come up with an example in a minute...
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2015-03-24T04:27:43Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-03-24T04:27:51Z beach: Hi nyef!
2015-03-24T04:27:54Z beach: OK, take FIND-CLASS.
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2015-03-24T04:28:42Z drmeister: Actually - could we hold off on a discussion of functions that take environment variables?
2015-03-24T04:28:47Z beach: I implement FIND-CLASS as a call to (MUMBLE:FIND-CLASS SYMBOL ENVIRONMENT) where MUMBLE:FIND-CLASS takes a required environment argument.
2015-03-24T04:29:01Z drmeister: Just for a few days.
2015-03-24T04:29:13Z beach: Er, why?
2015-03-24T04:29:36Z beach: Does it upset you?
2015-03-24T04:29:48Z drmeister: My state of mind is rather fragile at the moment and I'm exhausted and trying to get this running.  I know, a lousy excuse but I'm exhausted frankly.
2015-03-24T04:29:56Z drmeister: No, nothing like that.
2015-03-24T04:30:30Z beach: That's fine.  Though, what I said wasn't specifically directed to you.
2015-03-24T04:30:36Z drmeister: I've been beating my head bloody against a wall today working on getting macro expansion working properly with Cleavir environments - nothing wrong with Cleavir - I had half a dozen bugs that were conspiring against me at the same time.
2015-03-24T04:31:02Z drmeister: Oh sorry - do go on.   Actually - I'll just log what you say and mull it over later.
2015-03-24T04:31:03Z beach: ... less for me to type.
2015-03-24T04:31:47Z drmeister: I thought you were doing it for my edification - and while I need it currently I'm debugging why a special variable is going to NIL in Cleavir compiled code but not my bootstrapping code.
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2015-03-24T04:32:26Z drmeister: COMPILE works but COMPILE-FILE has a special variable going NIL for no apparent reason.
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2015-03-24T04:32:41Z drmeister: It's difficult to debug because I have no idea where it's happening.
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2015-03-24T04:35:35Z Zhivago: It isn't a load time issue, is it?
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2015-03-24T04:37:49Z drmeister: Zhivago: No - it's a special variable that I set to the LLVM module in COMPILE-FILE.   It shouldn't be set to NIL until it goes out of scope.
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2015-03-24T04:42:00Z drmeister: It should be set to an LLVM module when you go into COMPILE-FILE and return to NIL when you leave.
2015-03-24T04:43:43Z drmeister: beach: I'm sorry that I interrupted you I would be happy to hear any thoughts you have on functions that take environment arguments - I've logged the discussion that pjb and I had earlier and I was meaning to ask you about it.
2015-03-24T04:45:57Z beach: Sure, whenever you are ready.
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2015-03-24T04:46:34Z drmeister: Regarding FIND-CLASS - how does that work?
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2015-03-24T04:47:45Z beach: In SICL I have 3 layers of functions.  CL:FIND-CLASS calls INTERMEDIATE:FIND-CLASS which is a generic function that takes a required environment argument.
2015-03-24T04:48:40Z beach: INTERMEDIATE:FIND-CLASS (since there are no lexical classes) calls (SICL-GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT (CLEAVIR-ENV:GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT))
2015-03-24T04:49:20Z beach: ... where CLEAVIR-ENV:GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT takes any environment, lexical or global, and returns the "end of the chain" which is the global environment.
2015-03-24T04:49:43Z drmeister: Hang on - so CL:FIND-CLASS gets redefined?
2015-03-24T04:49:46Z beach: SICL code itself never uses CL:FIND-CLASS.
2015-03-24T04:50:03Z beach: drmeister: I don't have an existing system, remember?
2015-03-24T04:50:16Z beach: So nothing gets "redefined", just "defined".
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2015-03-24T04:50:51Z drmeister: So you define CL:FIND-CLASS?
2015-03-24T04:51:05Z drmeister: SICL defines CL:FIND-CLASS?
2015-03-24T04:51:06Z beach: I have to.  I am writing a Common Lisp system.
2015-03-24T04:51:09Z pjb: beach: there may be an ambiguity. There are compilation/run-time environments, and there are global/lexical environments.
2015-03-24T04:51:16Z pjb: It seems as if they are orthogonal.
2015-03-24T04:51:19Z drmeister: Does Cleavir do this?
2015-03-24T04:51:24Z beach: drmeister: No.
2015-03-24T04:51:28Z pjb: For example, let augments the runtime lexical environment;  macrolet augments the compilation-time lexical environment;  &environment collects which?  From macro lambda list clhs page, it seems it gets a compilation-time representation of the run-time lexical environment, but since we can apparently use it with eg. find-class, it seems to also represent a compilation-tim lexical environment.  It's very confusing.
2015-03-24T04:51:34Z beach: drmeister: That's why I specifically said SICL.
2015-03-24T04:51:41Z pjb: So, while find-class takes an environment argument, it seems that it hardly can be used, because the environments obtained by &environment are usually compilation enviroment x lexical environment into which defining a class (setf find-class) binding is rather useless. (there is verbiage that specifically disallow transmission between the compilation environment and the run-time environment, and of course, much less in the other directi
2015-03-24T04:52:06Z drmeister: What pjb said.
2015-03-24T04:52:27Z beach: No such ambiguity in SICL.
2015-03-24T04:52:44Z pjb: of course, you have to resolve it.
2015-03-24T04:53:05Z pjb: How do you interpret the standard?
2015-03-24T04:53:25Z beach: pjb: Still reading your last 2 paragraphs.
2015-03-24T04:53:26Z pjb: eg. is it possible to use the environment parameter of find-class to define "lexical" classes?
2015-03-24T04:53:43Z beach: pjb: No, I don't think so.
2015-03-24T04:54:14Z pjb: But it seems it's possible to use it to define classes with dynamic extent in macros, at macroexpansion time, right?
2015-03-24T04:54:39Z pjb: classes that would shadow classes with the same name in the global compilation time environment.
2015-03-24T04:54:41Z beach: It is possible, but I don't interpret it that way
2015-03-24T04:55:01Z beach: ... and SICL doesn't supply a mechanism for doing it.
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2015-03-24T04:57:37Z pjb: For example, http://paste.lisp.org/+350F  would that (m) return global or local?
2015-03-24T04:58:54Z Bike: the macro and gf have the same name, so i put off having to think about it
2015-03-24T05:00:00Z beach: Yeah, hard to distinguish between the two.
2015-03-24T05:00:18Z pjb: sorry. change the macro name.
2015-03-24T05:00:33Z pjb: method and macro have the same initial :-(
2015-03-24T05:00:42Z beach: pjb: What about (m) does that refer to the macro or the function?
2015-03-24T05:00:49Z beach: I think we need an updated paste.
2015-03-24T05:00:51Z pjb: the macro.
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2015-03-24T05:01:43Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146463#1
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2015-03-24T05:03:32Z beach: In SICL, the (setf (find-class....)) would replace the class defined by DEFCLASS in the global environment.
2015-03-24T05:03:43Z pjb: This doesn't sound conforming.
2015-03-24T05:04:07Z pjb: environment -- same as the &environment argument to macro expansion functions and is used to distinguish between compile-time and run-time environments.
2015-03-24T05:04:17Z Bike: i think the use of env is undefined for (setf find-class)
2015-03-24T05:04:37Z Bike: ...well, it doesn't say that
2015-03-24T05:04:57Z pjb: Now, I've not specified whether this file was compiled or loaded. Perhaps different behavior would be possible depending on the separation or not of the environments.
2015-03-24T05:06:05Z beach: pjb: You might very well be right so that there is a lexical namespace for classes.
2015-03-24T05:06:30Z pjb: That said, clhs find-class only says: "The environment might be used to distinguish between a compile-time and a run-time environment."
2015-03-24T05:06:30Z Bike: fuck yeah, let's put generic-flet back in while we're at it.
2015-03-24T05:06:30Z pjb:  
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2015-03-24T05:07:08Z pjb: And reading some parts of MACRO-ENVIRONMENT-EXTENT:DYNAMIC, it looks like this environment parameter to find-class is just a leftover of a crappy implementation of CLOS.
2015-03-24T05:07:18Z beach: pjb: And in SICL, I interpret that to mean two different GLOBAL environments.
2015-03-24T05:07:43Z pjb: Ok. That sounds logical.
2015-03-24T05:07:48Z Bike: well, i can... sort of imagine a situation where it would make sense
2015-03-24T05:08:08Z pjb: I mean, it seems it could be treated more like a boolean by find-class than as a specific object where to bind the class name.
2015-03-24T05:08:50Z beach: pjb: In SICL where I have first-class global environments it makes perfect sense for it to be an object.
2015-03-24T05:09:05Z Bike: (defmacro stupid-if (class then else &environment e) `(if ',(find-class class t e) ,then ,else)) (defclass foo () ()) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (stupid-if foo (print 'a) (print 'b))) => prints a when compiled, b when loaded?
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2015-03-24T05:09:31Z Bike: err, make errorp nil i guess
2015-03-24T05:09:45Z pjb: beach: sure, but since environments are obtained from &environment parameters of macros, more often we'll have local lexical environment objects.
2015-03-24T05:10:46Z beach: pjb: That's why I have (cleavir-env:global-environment environment) that returns the global environment, given any environment.
2015-03-24T05:12:32Z pjb: Good.
2015-03-24T05:12:38Z pjb: For even more fun: http://paste.lisp.org/+350F/2
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2015-03-24T05:13:52Z beach: pjb: I need to wake up a bit more before understanding that.
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2015-03-24T05:14:34Z pjb: beach: Did you notice that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)  (print 'foo))) is given in the examples of eval-when as doing nothing and returning nil, but given all the other verbiage about eval-when and toplevelness, I would have expected it to print foo?
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2015-03-24T05:15:02Z Bike: man, i really don't see what's ambiguous in processing of top level forms.
2015-03-24T05:15:09Z pjb: And since examples are not legally bounding, I'm wondering whether all implemenations are non-conforming here, since they implement the example.
2015-03-24T05:15:58Z pjb: Bike: eval-when keep toplevelness of the forms inside.  eval-when :compile-toplevel keeps the compile-toplevel-too of its body.  Therefore it should be totally idempotent.
2015-03-24T05:16:04Z beach: pjb: Is it not the case that the inner EVAL-WHEN will be evaluated by EVAL rather than by COMPILE-FILE?
2015-03-24T05:16:12Z Bike: It does not keep the ctt of its body!
2015-03-24T05:16:30Z Bike: with just :compile-toplevel it just evaluates it. it doesn't process it at all. there is no compile-time-too.
2015-03-24T05:16:40Z pjb: beach: perhaps, but that doesn't remove the specifications of toplevelness and compilation-timeness.
2015-03-24T05:16:53Z beach: I think it does.
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2015-03-24T05:16:58Z Bike: if it also had :load-toplevel it would be processed, and keep the compile-time-too.
2015-03-24T05:17:07Z beach: top-level forms are only considered in the file compiler.  Not EVAL.
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2015-03-24T05:17:13Z Bike: but it's not. no load toplevel, so it's not even part of the fasl.
2015-03-24T05:18:06Z pjb: I mean compile-time-too described in 3.2.3.1 Processing of Top Level Forms
2015-03-24T05:18:42Z pjb: We are in the action "Process: process the body as top level forms in the specified mode."
2015-03-24T05:18:44Z Bike: yes. eval-when with ct, and not lt or e, is clearly described as /not/ processing and not having compile-time-too (or any processing mode, since it is not processing)
2015-03-24T05:19:36Z Bike: instead, it evaluates.
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2015-03-24T05:20:27Z pjb: I don't see that eval-when is specified to use CL:EVAL to process its body.  It may be an implementation choice, but it's irrelevant to this question.
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2015-03-24T05:20:41Z Bike: evaluate as in "evaluate the body in the dynamic execution context of the compiler, using the evaluation environment as the global environment and the lexical environment in which the eval-when appears"
2015-03-24T05:20:52Z Bike: rather than process, which takes you back to the top of the page.
2015-03-24T05:21:20Z Bike: with just ct the body isn't processed as top level forms, or processed by the file compiler at all.
2015-03-24T05:21:34Z pjb: No, this goes to 3. if the form is a progn, since eval-when is specified to have an implicit progn.
2015-03-24T05:21:56Z Bike: It doesn't, because we're not processing it as top level forms, so we're not even on the page any more!
2015-03-24T05:22:08Z pjb: Yes, it's only toplevel.
2015-03-24T05:22:29Z pjb:     Process: process the body as top level forms in the specified mode.
2015-03-24T05:22:33Z Bike: I mean, if you have (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...anything...) anything is "evaluated", it is not processed as top level forms.
2015-03-24T05:22:44Z Bike: because it says evaluate. not process. fifth row of the table.
2015-03-24T05:22:52Z pjb: No, it is written black on write that it is processed as top level forms, in the specified mode.
2015-03-24T05:22:57Z pjb: This is what Process means.
2015-03-24T05:23:00Z Bike: holy shit, what am i missing here.
2015-03-24T05:23:01Z pjb: This cannot be clearer.
2015-03-24T05:23:05Z Bike: fifth row of the table! what's it say.
2015-03-24T05:23:08Z pjb: The example is completely wrong.
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2015-03-24T05:23:11Z Bike: "Yes  No   ---  ---   Evaluate  ---"
2015-03-24T05:23:15Z Bike: no processing!
2015-03-24T05:23:38Z pjb: Ok. I was looking the first one:     Yes  Yes  ---  ---   Process   compile-time-too
2015-03-24T05:23:46Z Bike: the one that's for having :load-toplevel also.
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2015-03-24T05:24:59Z pjb: Well, this is new for me: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) …) is not equivalent to  (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) (eval-when (:load-toplevel) …) apparently.
2015-03-24T05:25:14Z pjb: I wonder how much time would be required to really understand everything in CLHS…
2015-03-24T05:25:26Z Bike: well the file compiler is stupid.
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2015-03-24T05:25:45Z Bike: top level forms are this mediocre way of having a special language for file compilation. and eval-when makes it crazy instead of just weird.
2015-03-24T05:26:18Z pjb: agreed.
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2015-03-24T05:27:42Z Bike: i... think having the two eval-whens might be equivalent. first the compiler would evaluate the body, and then process it for loading. not sure.
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2015-03-24T05:28:55Z pjb: Does evaluating with eval in the dynamic excution context of the compiler remove the toplevelness property of the form evaluated?  Evaluate is specified to use the lexical environment in which the eval-when appears: this is the toplevel lexical environment.
2015-03-24T05:29:15Z Bike: you could have it in a locally or something.
2015-03-24T05:29:39Z pjb: Yes, but by default, for the (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …)) case?
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2015-03-24T05:30:22Z pjb: The inner (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) is evaluated as specified by the Evaluate rule, but this still doesn't remove its toplevelness.
2015-03-24T05:30:30Z Bike: well it's jsut being evaluated, so there's no notion of toplevelness. it doesn't have to be through cl:eval (and it would be hard to do so) but it's something like that
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2015-03-24T05:35:34Z pjb: I'm not convinced.  I guess this is just another part that would require a formal specification to let everybody understand and agree on something :-/
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2015-03-24T07:05:56Z jasom: I disagree about top-level forms being that mediocre
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2015-03-24T07:06:54Z jasom: You need some way of specifying which forms will have taken effect when compiling a progn
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2015-03-24T07:08:15Z Quadrescence: Did someone write ENSURE-TOPLEVEL yet?
2015-03-24T07:08:48Z jasom: If it were possible to compile arbitrary expressions, then you would still need something like top-level forms for that reason
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2015-03-24T07:10:51Z jasom: I do find it annoying that the INLINE declaration has 3 states, but only two of them you can declare
2015-03-24T07:11:25Z Quadrescence: jasom, INLINE, NOTINLINE, and INLINE+NOTINLINE?
2015-03-24T07:12:11Z jasom: Quadrescence: If you don't specify INLINE or NOTINLINE, then the semantics are different than either INLINE or NOTINLINE
2015-03-24T07:12:27Z Quadrescence: does that mean something akin to MAYBE-INLINE?
2015-03-24T07:12:35Z jasom: FILE-INLINE
2015-03-24T07:12:39Z Quadrescence: Oh yes yes
2015-03-24T07:12:56Z Quadrescence: jasom, would you consider INLINE + NOTINLINE to be a different state?
2015-03-24T07:13:24Z Bike: (defmacro ensured-toplevel (&body body) (let ((sym (gensym))) `(progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (symbol-value ',sym) t)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (when (boundp ',sym) ,@body))))) there, let's try that abomination
2015-03-24T07:13:41Z Quadrescence: Bike, let's see!
2015-03-24T07:13:54Z Bike: i forget why you wanted this, so it's probably wrong anyway. wheeeee.
2015-03-24T07:14:18Z Quadrescence: Bike, the reason is so I can have DEFINE-* forms that will error when not at toplevel
2015-03-24T07:14:24Z Quadrescence: just extra bug checking
2015-03-24T07:14:34Z jasom: Quadrescence: oh, I guess it is a different state, since that says "make it possible to inline this function, but don't inline it"
2015-03-24T07:14:54Z Quadrescence: jasom, It's on my compiler wishlist to define that state as INLINABLE
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2015-03-24T07:15:01Z Bike: oh, then this is probably wrong then
2015-03-24T07:15:03Z Quadrescence: (like ignorable!)
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2015-03-24T07:15:46Z Bike: maybe make the second condition :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel, and change its body to (unless (boundp ',sym) (error ...)) ,@body
2015-03-24T07:15:58Z Quadrescence: Bike, right
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2015-03-24T07:17:18Z jasom: Does SBCL still unconditionally open-code functions that are declared inline?
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2015-03-24T07:17:40Z Quadrescence: jasom, I think so because it has MAYBE-INLINE which is conditional
2015-03-24T07:17:56Z jasom: Quadrescence: oh, it has maybe-inline?  That's good to know.
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2015-03-24T07:18:03Z Quadrescence: yep
2015-03-24T07:18:12Z jasom: of course I think that it should be INLINE and ALWAYS-INLINE
2015-03-24T07:18:56Z Quadrescence: INLINE in my opinion should be conditional and depend on policy
2015-03-24T07:19:04Z Quadrescence: and yeah, ALWAYS-INLINE or FORCE-INLINE would be good.
2015-03-24T07:19:27Z ggole thinks inlining should be entirely in the hands of the implementation
2015-03-24T07:19:59Z Quadrescence: I think that is too much in the sufficiently smart compiler zone
2015-03-24T07:20:00Z ggole: Although you need a fair amount of machinery to support inlining and redefinition
2015-03-24T07:20:09Z ggole: Nah, we know how to do this now
2015-03-24T07:20:27Z ggole: All the JS compilers and things like PyPy and Luajit do it
2015-03-24T07:20:36Z ggole: And the JVM
2015-03-24T07:20:55Z ggole: I wouldn't describe it as simple, but it is a solved problem
2015-03-24T07:21:21Z jasom: ggole: I disagree
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2015-03-24T07:22:17Z jasom: ggole: all of those you mention are JITs that can profile and inline based on the profiling information; AoT will always be dumber than a profiler
2015-03-24T07:22:42Z ggole: That's what I was suggesting.
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2015-03-24T07:23:25Z jasom: I may be a luddite, but I still like my AoT compilation
2015-03-24T07:24:00Z Quadrescence: I don't really like the runtime overhead, and the idea of "warming up". But the kinds of optimizations you can do are nice.
2015-03-24T07:25:30Z jasom: I do think that the lisp implementation should always be able to inline (and unless you declare NOTINLINE, it actually is permitted to do so by the spec, as long as you do the heavy lifting to make sure redefinition works)
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2015-03-24T07:26:12Z ggole: That's difficult to reconcile with (full) AoT, isn't it?
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2015-03-24T07:26:17Z ggole: I guess you could do a hybrid thing
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2015-03-24T07:26:50Z jasom: ggole: not really; you could e.g. save the environment and IR for every function and recompile dependencies on a redefinition
2015-03-24T07:26:54Z ggole: Where you AoT and then retain the compiler + enough information to recompile where necessary
2015-03-24T07:26:57Z ggole: Right
2015-03-24T07:26:58Z jasom: it's still AoT, incremental compilation
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2015-03-24T07:27:30Z jasom: I think cleavir is trying to do something like that
2015-03-24T07:27:37Z ggole: That would let you be a bit speculative too
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2015-03-24T07:27:48Z ggole: Make a nice assumption about the code, recompile if it is invalidated
2015-03-24T07:27:53Z jasom: you can do something similar with generic function dispatch
2015-03-24T07:28:17Z ggole: Although you would want some way to keep a lid recompilation costs
2015-03-24T07:28:32Z ggole: *a lid on
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2015-03-24T07:29:06Z jasom: well, you could track the depth of your dependency tree, or you could just rely on people sprinkling NOTINLINE through parts of their code
2015-03-24T07:29:20Z jasom: or you could disable this when compilation-speed optimization is set high
2015-03-24T07:29:48Z ggole: So if marked NOTINLINE (perhaps on a compilation unit basis) you throw the IR info away?
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2015-03-24T07:30:26Z ggole: Hmm, that would allow an arrangement where you could freely redefine your own code but not libraries
2015-03-24T07:30:27Z jasom: ggole: no, if marked NOTINLINE, no functions will be dependent on it, so redefining it won't trigger any recompilation
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2015-03-24T07:30:47Z ggole: Oh, right
2015-03-24T07:31:21Z jasom: you still save the IR because you could inline calls to other functions
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2015-03-24T07:31:47Z ggole: Can INLINE marking be changed by redefinition?
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2015-03-24T07:32:22Z jasom: yes
2015-03-24T07:32:30Z jasom: it can be changed without redefining it too
2015-03-24T07:32:47Z ggole: So it takes effect on subsequent references to the binding
2015-03-24T07:32:48Z ggole: I see
2015-03-24T07:33:02Z ggole: You would need to keep the IR for that too
2015-03-24T07:33:02Z jasom: but you can't change a function from NOTINLINE to INLINE and expect that the compiler will inline it
2015-03-24T07:33:28Z jasom: you can declare an already defined function NOTINLINE and know it won't be inlined until the declaration changes though
2015-03-24T07:34:29Z jasom: If a function is not declared INLINE at the point of function definition, the compiler is permitted to not do any work needed to make it inlinable
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2015-03-24T07:35:17Z jasom: well, technically the compiler is *always* permitted to do that, since it can ignore INLINE whenever it so chooses
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2015-03-24T07:37:02Z jasom: and an implementation is required to "attempt" to handle (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo () ...) (declaim (notinline foo)) as making a function that can be locally declared inline for inlining at specific points
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2015-03-24T07:38:33Z Quadrescence: Bike, I think what you have must be close.
2015-03-24T07:39:09Z Quadrescence: Bike, I did instead :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL and :LOAD-TOPLEVEL in the first EVAL-WHEN, and :EXECUTE in the second. It seems to work in that case, but I admit I don't 100% understand the second EVAL-WHEN.
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2015-03-24T07:40:25Z Quadrescence: I think LOAD-TOPLEVEL in the second one is incorrect because that will only be processed when it's at the top level.
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2015-03-24T08:06:27Z Quadrescence: Bike, I think this may be correct in every way: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/066533840fe4409dafcf79f6794d7f1c1f29f1bd/ensure-toplevel.lisp
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2015-03-24T08:13:17Z Quadrescence: Bike, Nope, never mind, it is wrong.
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2015-03-24T08:21:18Z Quadrescence: Fixed it... but doesn't work at compile time. :(
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2015-03-24T08:31:53Z knobo: Sorry for disappearing after asking a question yesterday, but I read the answers in the log. And thank you for the #lispweb suggestion.
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2015-03-24T10:58:08Z jackdaniel: unmatched close parenthesis
2015-03-24T10:58:09Z jackdaniel: Line: 1, Column: 0, File-Position: 0
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2015-03-24T13:20:57Z smokeink: swap :: (a -> b -> c) -> (b -> a -> c)
2015-03-24T13:20:58Z smokeink: swap fn x y = fn y x
2015-03-24T13:20:58Z smokeink: *Main> mod 13 7
2015-03-24T13:20:58Z smokeink: 6
2015-03-24T13:20:58Z smokeink: *Main> swap mod 13 7
2015-03-24T13:20:58Z smokeink: 7
2015-03-24T13:20:58Z smokeink: any way to get this done in lisp without a macro? (defmacro swap (f x y) `(,f ,y ,x))
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2015-03-24T13:23:17Z ggole: Sure, pretty much the same way
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2015-03-24T13:23:33Z Shinmera: (defun swap (f x y) (funcall f y x)) (swap #'mod 13 7) ?
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2015-03-24T13:23:50Z Shinmera: I don't see the point of it, but w/e.
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2015-03-24T13:24:07Z ggole: It makes more sense in languages with currying
2015-03-24T13:24:21Z Shinmera: Yeah, I can see the point in Haskell
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2015-03-24T13:31:56Z smokeink: :)
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2015-03-24T14:02:24Z lieven: you could try to resurrect liskell :)
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2015-03-24T14:15:20Z knobo: http://www.cliki.net is down
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2015-03-24T14:24:45Z Adlai: clhs shiftf
2015-03-24T14:24:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm
2015-03-24T14:25:00Z Adlai: smokeink: this might do what you want
2015-03-24T14:25:10Z Adlai: sorry, rotatef is the one you want
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2015-03-24T14:29:22Z smokeink: clhs rotatef
2015-03-24T14:29:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rotate.htm
2015-03-24T14:30:07Z smokeink: cool
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2015-03-24T14:38:33Z oleo: hello
2015-03-24T14:38:39Z morrishunt: hello
2015-03-24T14:39:04Z knobo: hello
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2015-03-24T14:40:22Z smokeink: hello
2015-03-24T14:40:37Z oleo: hahaha :)
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2015-03-24T14:45:07Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-03-24T14:49:14Z oleo: morning nyef
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2015-03-24T14:56:27Z flip214: Is there something like the swank inspector for hunchentoot & HTML?
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2015-03-24T15:06:29Z selat: hello
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2015-03-24T15:06:41Z oleo: hello
2015-03-24T15:06:44Z selat: Can anybody explain what's wrong with this code?
2015-03-24T15:06:46Z selat: http://pastebin.com/zi9XS06S
2015-03-24T15:07:10Z selat: I'm getting the error "The value L is not of type REAL."
2015-03-24T15:07:37Z oleo: what was your intention ?
2015-03-24T15:07:40Z Bike: selat: arguments to macros are not evaluated
2015-03-24T15:08:03Z Bike: selat: so, in test, k is bound to the symbol L, not its value like you expected (presumably some number)
2015-03-24T15:08:34Z pjb: selat: this is typically a case where you can't use a macro.
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2015-03-24T15:08:37Z selat: I know it.. So each argument that I want to use in macro I need to evaluate explicitly?
2015-03-24T15:08:39Z pjb: just write a normal function.
2015-03-24T15:08:43Z Bike: selat: try (defmacro test (k) `(* ,@(loop repeat k collect 2))) (test 4)
2015-03-24T15:08:54Z Bike: selat: more likely you just want a function, if you want all the arguments evaluated.
2015-03-24T15:09:02Z Bike: like, you know. (defun test (k) (expt 2 k))
2015-03-24T15:09:18Z pjb: selat: You cannot use EVAL to evaluate them explicitely.  You should just put those arguments in the macro expansion, so that they will be evaluated when time will come to run the program.
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2015-03-24T15:10:22Z Bike: or more in the spirit, (defun test (k) (reduce #'* (loop repeat k collecting 2)))
2015-03-24T15:10:42Z pjb: selat: the key, is that you must always keep in mind that the macro is executed now, in your present time, while the functions will be called in the year 2345 by Capt Picard.
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2015-03-24T15:11:10Z pjb: selat: therefore there's no way for your macro to know the value of the arguments given to it by the functions called by Capt Picard.
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2015-03-24T15:12:30Z selat: thanks for explanation!
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2015-03-24T15:13:53Z oGMo: i.e., have you macro _produce code_ which interprets the values
2015-03-24T15:14:58Z Adlai: shouldn't you aim for your macros to get expanded by picard, too?
2015-03-24T15:15:10Z Adlai: or is writing new code beneath his level
2015-03-24T15:15:34Z Bike: nah, macros can be for other things. maybe he just has fasls
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2015-03-24T15:16:32Z pjb: Adlai: there's no historical record of Picard having ever programmed, other than giving vocal instructions to the AI of the Enterprise computer.
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2015-03-24T15:16:47Z pjb: Adlai: our macros will be expanded by this AI :-)
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2015-03-24T15:50:10Z jasom: pjb: judging by how he orders Tea, he likely used some dialect of forth
2015-03-24T15:51:31Z oleo: spoon 2 fill lol
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2015-03-24T15:53:01Z pjb: :-)
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2015-03-24T15:56:46Z jasom: : my-drink tea earl-gray hot ;
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2015-03-24T16:00:38Z nyef: There's also the question of if it's actually a peculiarity of the replicator... Or of SOME replicators, and he might have been trained on some with that peculiarity of input syntax.
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2015-03-24T16:04:32Z splittist: A Nutrimatic Drinks Dispenser?
2015-03-24T16:09:19Z morrishunt: splittist: but it doesnt make tea. it just makes stuff thats like tea
2015-03-24T16:09:24Z morrishunt: but not quite :/
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2015-03-24T16:17:04Z pavelpenev: does anybody know what's going on with cliki?
2015-03-24T16:18:44Z pavelpenev: it's been down for me for at least a few days
2015-03-24T16:18:53Z Shinmera: It's down and the person responsible was contacted but other than that nothing.
2015-03-24T16:19:10Z Shinmera: It won't start up anymore because of some mysteriously missing file or something like that
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2015-03-24T16:21:27Z pavelpenev: Shinmera: thanks
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2015-03-24T18:07:09Z rpg: I'm having some trouble with SLIME and a file that sets the *READTABLE*.  How does SLIME decide what readtable value to use when compiling forms from a file?
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2015-03-24T18:20:09Z pjb: rpg: ultimately, when you use C-c C-c, it's swank:compile-string-for-emacs that processes the test of the sexp.
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2015-03-24T18:21:50Z pjb: rpg: it saves the text in a file and calls compile-file on it.  Therefore the thread *readtable* and *package* is used.
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2015-03-24T18:22:09Z pjb: So if you evaluate any form that installs reader macro in the same thread, you will be good.
2015-03-24T18:22:13Z rpg: pjb: eep.  How does one control the thread's readtable?
2015-03-24T18:22:37Z rpg: I have tried setting the readtable in the repl, and it seems not to carry over to t
2015-03-24T18:22:40Z pjb: Just C-x C-e the form that sets the readtable.
2015-03-24T18:22:45Z rpg: C-c C-c....
2015-03-24T18:22:50Z pjb: No, not in the REPL. In the buffer where you do C-c C-c.
2015-03-24T18:22:54Z rpg: pjb: Thanks. will try....
2015-03-24T18:23:36Z rpg: pjb:  Just tried and no luck. Couldn't find the reader macro that it finds fine when I'm loading the file.
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2015-03-24T18:24:13Z rpg: I /can/ just load the file over and over, but that seems a little messy.
2015-03-24T18:24:17Z burtons: is there a way to get a list of of all the slots in a structure or class?
2015-03-24T18:24:47Z Bicyclidine: with the mop, yeah. what's your implementation?
2015-03-24T18:24:58Z rpg: pjb: This is why the Franz folks added named readtables. Suppose I should start using that library.
2015-03-24T18:24:59Z burtons: i generally use sbcl
2015-03-24T18:25:07Z pjb: I don't know exactly what I do, it just works for me.
2015-03-24T18:25:13Z Xach: c2mop normalizes mop access
2015-03-24T18:25:24Z Bicyclidine: burtons: sb-mop:class-slots
2015-03-24T18:25:28Z pjb: I just put (in-package :my-package) (enable-my-readtable) at the beginning of the source.
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2015-03-24T18:25:41Z burtons: Bicyclidine: thanks
2015-03-24T18:25:48Z pjb: I don't use C-c C-c, but C-x C-l and C-x C-e.
2015-03-24T18:25:51Z Bicyclidine: if you want portability than yeah use c2mop.
2015-03-24T18:26:22Z pjb: I mean C-c C-l and C-x C-e.
2015-03-24T18:28:12Z Fare: I recommend use of named-readtable, or cl-syntax
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2015-03-24T18:28:41Z rpg: pjb: I did that too (except the readtable in EVAL-ALWAYS).
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2015-03-24T18:29:12Z rpg: Fare:  ISTR that SLIME understands NAMED-READTABLES. Is th atright?
2015-03-24T18:30:20Z Fare: I don't know :-(
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2015-03-24T18:31:28Z Shinmera: Slime does nothing special with named-readtables.
2015-03-24T18:31:31Z Xach: rpg: It does
2015-03-24T18:31:35Z burtons: what's up with cliki being down?
2015-03-24T18:32:16Z Shinmera: burtons: The responsible person has been contacted, but nobody here seems to know what's really going on aside from that it can't simply be started up again.
2015-03-24T18:32:44Z burtons: too bad
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2015-03-24T18:34:11Z nyef: Who is the "responsible person"?
2015-03-24T18:34:40Z rpg: Xach: thanks....
2015-03-24T18:37:19Z Shinmera: nyef: The relevant snippet http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?around=2015-03-22T12:48:26&types=mnaot#1427028506
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2015-03-24T18:37:55Z Shinmera: I'm terrible at remembering names.
2015-03-24T18:38:14Z nyef: Ah, I see.
2015-03-24T18:38:16Z nyef: Thank you.
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2015-03-24T19:37:47Z akkad: does anyone else ever export complex tasks from elisp to cl to offload blocking?
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2015-03-24T19:39:36Z Xach does not usually attempt complex tasks in elisp
2015-03-24T19:41:42Z Odin- generally doesn't even attempt simple tasks in elisp...
2015-03-24T19:42:59Z akkad: yeah, it's a sickness.
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2015-03-24T21:25:47Z x1n4u: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146476
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2015-03-24T21:26:50Z x1n4u: can some on help me  please with my Problem I don't get the first case in my (case ...) to work and don' know why
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2015-03-24T21:27:32Z jasom: x1n4u: is it possible the package of the two symbols is different?
2015-03-24T21:28:04Z jasom: x1n4u: time is a symbol in the cl package, so that seems like the most likely source of the problem
2015-03-24T21:28:36Z x1n4u: ah oh kay thanks didn't know they wher symbols
2015-03-24T21:28:47Z x1n4u: me a lisp newbie
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2015-03-24T21:33:10Z jasom: x1n4u: whenever you have a bare word, the reader makes a symbol out of it in the current package.  A "package" is just a collection of symbols, where no two symbols in the package have the same name
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2015-03-24T21:33:47Z jasom: clhs 11.1.1
2015-03-24T21:33:47Z specbot: Introduction to Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm
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2015-03-24T21:35:20Z jasom: x1n4u: there is also a special package called "keyword" for which all symbols are self evaluating, and you can refer to them by starting the name with a colon
2015-03-24T21:35:23Z jasom: :this-is-akeyword
2015-03-24T21:36:00Z jasom: x1n4u: if you just need to select from one of several names, and the specific symbol isn't important, then keywords are a good choice
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2015-03-24T21:37:58Z x1n4u: jasom: Thank you
2015-03-24T21:38:06Z x1n4u: specbot: Thank you
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2015-03-24T21:38:42Z jasom: x1n4u: are you using a book to learn lisp?  If so, which one?
2015-03-24T21:38:52Z jasom is curious what the cool kids are using to learn lisp these days
2015-03-24T21:39:21Z x1n4u: practical common lisp
2015-03-24T21:39:28Z x1n4u: :D
2015-03-24T21:39:52Z jasom: always a good choice
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2015-03-24T21:58:09Z sloshy: ((((((((((hi))))))))))
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2015-03-24T21:59:54Z antoszka: Illegal function call.
2015-03-24T22:00:03Z sloshy: im having some trouble with this code if anyone wants to help me out
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2015-03-24T22:00:11Z sloshy: the problem is on line 14
2015-03-24T22:00:14Z sloshy: http://codepad.org/wkOtFn5u
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2015-03-24T22:01:33Z White_Flame: sloshy: that's a blast from the past
2015-03-24T22:01:38Z antoszka: You're such a good ascii artist.
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2015-03-24T22:05:48Z jasom: man, I was hoping antoszka wasn't being sarcastic.  That was lame ascii art.  In my day we had ascii artists who didn't suck.
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2015-03-24T22:06:28Z antoszka: Yeah, I painted my own ANSI art for the BBS I ran on an Amiga ;)
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2015-03-24T22:07:58Z heddwch: I painted my own PETSCII art to annoy my sister
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2015-03-24T22:15:54Z Adlai: common lisp joke: (every 'null (mapcar 'mapcar '(car cdr consp) (make-list 3)))
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2015-03-24T22:43:09Z jasom: but it is a symbol
2015-03-24T22:43:24Z jasom: and a list
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2015-03-24T23:24:50Z Adlai: it has an address register, and a decrement register; but is not a constructed cell. you could say the cell is hardwired, but that still counts as having been constructed, once...
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2015-03-24T23:30:07Z jasom: Adlai: It doesn't necessarily have an address register, just well-defined semantics for reading the address register
2015-03-24T23:30:25Z Adlai: certainly quacks like a cons
2015-03-24T23:30:39Z jasom: It's a mockingcons
2015-03-24T23:32:12Z _death: what about prefix and tag
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2015-03-24T23:52:27Z approximate-pyon is now known as asymptotic-pyon
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