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2015-03-19T00:43:58Z lemonade`: is there a crash course for implementing the basics of common lisp somewhere?
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2015-03-19T00:47:09Z Zhivago: You might do better to look at the basics of implementing scheme, and then extrapolating.
2015-03-19T00:47:57Z Zhivago: The basics are reasonably similar, except for the lack of first class continuations, and the use of unwind-protect and catch/throw, etc for non-local transfer.
2015-03-19T00:49:44Z lemonade`: as long as it's reasonably easy to figure out what I need to do, that'd be fine. is there some crash course for that then?
2015-03-19T00:50:06Z lemonade`: I'm trying to not spend lots of time figuring out what I need to do... I waste too much time doing that.
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2015-03-19T00:51:39Z Zhivago: What do you want to implement common lisp in?
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2015-03-19T00:53:03Z lemonade`: osx and iphone. so that means C and objective-c. optimization is not important.
2015-03-19T00:54:06Z lemonade`: in fact, I'd be happy with just an interpreter, not a compiler.
2015-03-19T00:54:29Z lemonade`: compiler means writing assembly for osx and that's a huge time waster
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2015-03-19T00:56:40Z White_Flame: you could certainly grow one, adding features as you need them
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2015-03-19T00:56:53Z White_Flame: if your abstractions are good enough to keep expanding the implementation
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2015-03-19T00:57:35Z White_Flame: I presume the biggest things to keep in mind are the various dynamic scopes, like bindings and condition handlers
2015-03-19T00:57:37Z Zhivago: Why not use ECL?
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2015-03-19T00:57:47Z lemonade`: yes. I just want a clear description of the inner workings so I don't get tripped up and confused later
2015-03-19T00:58:03Z Zhivago: Or is a new implementation a basic requirement?
2015-03-19T00:58:17Z lemonade`: all I could find on ECL was a few readmes, no documentation. so I have no idea how to use it.
2015-03-19T00:58:29Z Zhivago: Well, it's written in C, contains an interpreter, and compiles to C.
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2015-03-19T00:58:48Z lemonade`: a new implementation is not necessarily a requirement
2015-03-19T00:58:55Z Zhivago: It just runs under android. Presumably ios wouldn't be very problematic.
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2015-03-19T01:00:53Z Zhivago: I don't mean that it only runs under android, but that it works without problem there afaik.
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2015-03-19T01:04:25Z lemonade`: also, if there was something that explained the inner workings of common lisp, like symbols and activation records and what typing is required (or what typing would make it conceptually simple) and various low level data structures like that, it'd be useful just for me to understand how to use the language better
2015-03-19T01:06:53Z pillton: clhs 1
2015-03-19T01:06:53Z specbot: Introduction: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_.htm
2015-03-19T01:06:56Z pillton: clhs 2
2015-03-19T01:06:56Z specbot: Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm
2015-03-19T01:06:58Z pillton: clhs 3
2015-03-19T01:06:59Z specbot: Evaluation and Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm
2015-03-19T01:07:02Z pillton: Done.
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2015-03-19T01:08:39Z pillton: lemonade`: I very much doubt that knowing the lower level details will improve your ability to use the language.
2015-03-19T01:09:10Z lemonade`: it would improve my ability to write an interpreter of it
2015-03-19T01:09:25Z lemonade`: and it would improve my ability to program with it
2015-03-19T01:09:44Z pillton: I disagree.
2015-03-19T01:10:22Z brucem: [07:58:17]  <lemonade`>	all I could find on ECL was a few readmes, no documentation. so I have no idea how to use it.
2015-03-19T01:10:31Z brucem: Solving that problem is a matter of a week or two.
2015-03-19T01:10:38Z Bicyclidine: maybe lisp500 or whatever it is?
2015-03-19T01:10:42Z brucem: Solving "Let's write a CL implementation" is significantly more than that.
2015-03-19T01:10:43Z White_Flame: lemonade`: I think I learned the most from trying things and reading the disassemblies of SBCL
2015-03-19T01:10:53Z lemonade`: brucem: what would happen in a week?
2015-03-19T01:11:01Z pillton: Pick another problem that has nothing to do with implementing common lisp and solve it using common lisp. You'll learn two things at once.
2015-03-19T01:11:11Z brucem: lemonade`: You could learn how to use ECL is that time.
2015-03-19T01:11:20Z brucem: s/is/in/
2015-03-19T01:11:24Z lemonade`: brucem: how would I do that with no documentation?
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2015-03-19T01:12:45Z brucem: lemonade`: By jumping in and asking questions. Others have done it. And it is surely easier than writing your own entire CL implementation. There are people who know parts of ECL around. drmeister started with parts of ECL to create CLASP.
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2015-03-19T01:13:50Z lemonade`: brucem: then perhaps they could write something up so others don't have to explicitly ask every time they want to figure something out
2015-03-19T01:14:18Z brucem: Okay, I'm done.
2015-03-19T01:14:31Z pillton: Telling others how to spend their spare time isn't a good strategy.
2015-03-19T01:14:50Z lemonade`: pillton: uh you were just doing that with me...
2015-03-19T01:15:05Z pillton: You asked for help. We gave it.
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2015-03-19T01:16:07Z drmeister: lemonade`: An interpreter for Common Lisp won't work - it will be too slow - trust me - I wrote one.
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2015-03-19T01:17:43Z Zhivago: Oh, it depends on what you're doing with it. clisp is fast enough for many purposes.
2015-03-19T01:17:54Z lemonade`: drmeister: I think that'd be ok for me. I'm basically interested in the algorithmic flexibility of lisp
2015-03-19T01:18:14Z Zhivago: if you're competing with cpython, for example, then the bar is pretty low.
2015-03-19T01:18:30Z drmeister: Zhivago: There needs to be some amount of compilation to expand macros.
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2015-03-19T01:20:16Z Zhivago: drmeister: Well, clisp does that in the fly also, iirc.
2015-03-19T01:20:36Z pillton: drmeister: What are you a professor of?
2015-03-19T01:20:40Z Zhivago: But I wasn't considering the CL basic compilation mechanism, but rather the implementation of CL as a compiler.
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2015-03-19T01:21:45Z drmeister: pillton: Chemistry - I teach and run a lab of synthetic chemists
2015-03-19T01:22:24Z pillton: lemonade`: See. Someone who is using lisp to help with their problem.
2015-03-19T01:22:49Z lemonade`: huh?
2015-03-19T01:23:01Z brucem: pillton: and he was able to figure out the relevant details of ECL.
2015-03-19T01:23:33Z pillton: Precisely.
2015-03-19T01:24:23Z drmeister: lemonade`: Four years ago I was asking the exact questions that you are asking.
2015-03-19T01:24:58Z drmeister: Over the last four years I implemented a new Common Lisp and I'm just finishing integrating a second compiler that does optimization because everything I wrote before this was too slow.
2015-03-19T01:25:10Z lemonade`: I just don't think I'd be able to figure out a program without documentation. I know my limitations, is all
2015-03-19T01:26:21Z drmeister: There is plenty of documentation - the Common Lisp hyper spec, books like Gigamonkeys Practical Common Lisp:  http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-03-19T01:26:30Z pillton: lemonade`: You cannot eat an elephant in one go.
2015-03-19T01:26:49Z drmeister: And there is #lisp - lots of mostly friendly people happy to help out.
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2015-03-19T01:30:14Z lemonade`: ok here's a question, does common lisp provide a mechanism to call out to a running interpreter with structured expressions (as in not string literals) and do multiple of these callouts for one run of the interpreter (as in the interpreter doesn't reset state between calls)?
2015-03-19T01:30:42Z drmeister: What is the "running interpreter"?
2015-03-19T01:30:45Z lemonade`: ...and return the results in a structured form?
2015-03-19T01:30:59Z lemonade`: the common lisp interpreter instance
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2015-03-19T01:31:41Z Bicyclidine: ...eval?
2015-03-19T01:32:03Z lemonade`: eval is a lisp function. I want to call from a C program
2015-03-19T01:32:10Z drmeister: I'm still not following.   You write a program in Common Lisp and run it.  It's supposed to call out to the Common Lisp environment?  It's in the Common Lisp environment.
2015-03-19T01:32:25Z drmeister: Ah - you want to call Common Lisp from a C program?
2015-03-19T01:32:26Z Bicyclidine: common lisp doesn't involve C at all
2015-03-19T01:32:39Z lemonade`: sorry I forgot to mention it's a C program that's calling out
2015-03-19T01:32:52Z Bicyclidine: well, you can probably do that in ecl, anyway.
2015-03-19T01:32:59Z lemonade`: kinf of like a reverse FFI
2015-03-19T01:33:27Z drmeister: ECL supports interoperation with C.   My implementation Clasp is the only one that supports interoperation with C++.
2015-03-19T01:33:56Z drmeister: So yes - but it's an implementation dependent detail.
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2015-03-19T01:34:27Z lemonade`: but interop in what sense? just calling C functions from lisp programs is not enough.
2015-03-19T01:34:34Z drmeister: Yes, you can write a C program that calls Common Lisp code if you use ECL or Clasp.
2015-03-19T01:34:55Z drmeister: C++ calls Common Lisp, Common Lisp calls C++  that's interoperation.
2015-03-19T01:35:03Z lemonade`: and the lisp state will not be forgotten between calls?
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2015-03-19T01:35:13Z drmeister: In ECL C calls Common Lisp and Common Lisp calls C.
2015-03-19T01:35:18Z drmeister: Nope.
2015-03-19T01:35:34Z pillton: lemonade`: You can use sockets for that too.
2015-03-19T01:35:35Z drmeister: I mean yes, the lisp state is not forgotten between calls.
2015-03-19T01:36:11Z lemonade`: pillton: wouldn't sockets imply that it's text based?
2015-03-19T01:36:25Z pillton: No not at all.
2015-03-19T01:36:52Z pillton: Images downloaded via the web browser are not sent as text.
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2015-03-19T01:37:54Z lemonade`: ok just had to make sure
2015-03-19T01:38:17Z lemonade`: what provides this functionality?
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2015-03-19T01:39:27Z pillton: You have a few options: iolib, usocket, basic-binary-ipc. Off the top of my head.
2015-03-19T01:41:42Z lemonade`: those are io libraries. I was asking about something that allows a C program to give structured code to a lisp interpreter.
2015-03-19T01:41:53Z lemonade`: sorry if I wasn't clear enough
2015-03-19T01:42:33Z pillton: I'd argue that that issue is problem dependent.
2015-03-19T01:43:00Z pillton: You could get some ideas from: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html
2015-03-19T01:43:34Z lemonade`: I'm just looking for a way to push s-exprs from a C program to a lisp interpreter
2015-03-19T01:43:35Z Bicyclidine: presumably you do cl_cons(cl_make_symbol ...) etc etc in ecl. bam, structure
2015-03-19T01:43:35Z White_Flame: I think the most common interface would be a string interface.  If you're thinking about passing in a sexpression tree directly to an existing CL interpreter to be handed to EVAL, it would have to be of regular lisp cons cells on the GC'd heap (or equivalent)
2015-03-19T01:44:14Z pillton: lemonade`: printf(socket, "(print \"Hello world\")"); force_output(socket);
2015-03-19T01:44:42Z lemonade`: hmm ok then maybe it's too complicated to do the structured part
2015-03-19T01:45:45Z White_Flame: pass the string to the lisp reader, hold on to the cons tree sexpr, and pass that into eval?
2015-03-19T01:45:46Z lemonade`: but I'd like to get information back in structured form. but I guess that could be done just with me coding something to do that.
2015-03-19T01:45:57Z White_Flame: that would cache the expression for reuse
2015-03-19T01:46:38Z lemonade`: yeah that seems complicated. I was just trying to avoid having the interpreter parse everything but that seems not practical now
2015-03-19T01:47:03Z pillton: The problem isn't the lisp interpreter. It is your C program.
2015-03-19T01:47:11Z pillton: clhs read
2015-03-19T01:47:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2015-03-19T01:47:14Z pillton: clhs write
2015-03-19T01:47:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2015-03-19T01:47:40Z White_Flame: where are these to-be-interpreted Lisp expressions originating from?
2015-03-19T01:47:49Z lemonade`: pillton: I don't see your point
2015-03-19T01:48:10Z pillton: It is your C program that must generated the s-expressions and read them.
2015-03-19T01:48:14Z burtons: ,clhs in-package
2015-03-19T01:48:24Z lemonade`: White_Flame: I write them in a C program.
2015-03-19T01:48:31Z burtons: clhs in-package
2015-03-19T01:48:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm
2015-03-19T01:48:33Z White_Flame: as static strings?
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2015-03-19T01:48:55Z lemonade`: static strings, constructed strings, things like that
2015-03-19T01:49:17Z White_Flame: make them defuns, pass them as strings to eval, then call those lisp functions
2015-03-19T01:49:26Z White_Flame: that'd be my view on how to deal with that sort of infrastructure
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2015-03-19T01:50:02Z lemonade`: that doesn't provide locality of source code, which is what I'm after. I'm trying to blend the advantages of C and lisp.
2015-03-19T01:50:28Z White_Flame: locality is just a matter of where your initialization calls are
2015-03-19T01:51:04Z White_Flame: Making up an API, static LispFunc* myFunc = intoLisp.eval("(defun ...)") or whatever can be anywhere in your code
2015-03-19T01:51:29Z lemonade`: the way I think you're describing it, the lisp code would be in a lisp source file and the C code would be in a C source file. so they are not local to each other, regardless of where the initialization calls are
2015-03-19T01:51:43Z Zhivago: White: Well, things like compile-file will care about where it is.
2015-03-19T01:51:57Z White_Flame: Zhivago: but it sounds like these are individual expressions
2015-03-19T01:52:34Z lemonade`: the repl can evaluate individual expressions so I don't see why there should be a technical issue with it
2015-03-19T01:52:57Z White_Flame: the first character of REPL is READ, ie converting strings to forms
2015-03-19T01:53:06Z White_Flame: so if your view is strings, sure
2015-03-19T01:53:42Z lemonade`: well yeah, if I was to provide structured input using the repl directly wouldn't be enough.
2015-03-19T01:54:01Z White_Flame: but where would you get the structured input?  is that just a performance caching mechanism?
2015-03-19T01:54:34Z lemonade`: I just didn't want to have to bother with parsing and generating strings. it's a hassle.
2015-03-19T01:54:49Z lemonade`: just a whole lot of work for nothing
2015-03-19T01:54:57Z White_Flame: the only difference is value = eval(read("expression")), vs cached = read("expression"), value = eval(cached)
2015-03-19T01:55:35Z Zhivago: If you're doing that, perhaps an RPC bridge might be simplest?
2015-03-19T01:56:01Z lemonade`: btw I didn't entirely follow the previous line of thought from a few minutes ago on caching the sexprs. it just seemed complicated.
2015-03-19T01:56:25Z White_Flame: sexprs == structured input, as far as I'm understanding you
2015-03-19T01:56:26Z lemonade`: an RPC bridge to eval might do the trick
2015-03-19T01:56:43Z White_Flame: ie, containing the expression in a cons tree of symbols etc
2015-03-19T01:56:58Z Zhivago: In which case you might just use ECL, have it run a repl over an rpc bridge, and be done with it.
2015-03-19T01:57:02Z White_Flame: I'm also assuming eval is directly callable already
2015-03-19T01:57:13Z lemonade`: White_Flame: I was using "structured input" to refer to how input it made to a function call or a shared library as opposed to how input is made through a text stream.
2015-03-19T01:57:51Z White_Flame: the input to eval is a atom or sexpr form
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2015-03-19T01:58:08Z lemonade`: Zhivago: unfortunately I don't have any idea how to set that up.
2015-03-19T01:59:12Z White_Flame: the first thing I'd look for in ECL is how to add C code to it which calls eval
2015-03-19T01:59:37Z White_Flame: regardless of the lack of internal documentation, at lest that should be expected to be a public interface
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2015-03-19T02:00:39Z Zhivago: Doing that's well documented in ECL although it might be called ECLS these days.
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2015-03-19T02:58:09Z drmeister: lemonade`: Just learn how to work with ECL - it has already solved all of these problems.
2015-03-19T02:58:31Z lemonade`: I don't know how to do that.
2015-03-19T02:58:48Z lemonade`: unless you're just talking about reading the hyperspec
2015-03-19T03:00:10Z drmeister: No - check this out:  https://github.com/cwandrews/lisp-c-example
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2015-03-19T03:03:47Z drmeister: That's how you call Common Lisp from C
2015-03-19T03:04:38Z lemonade`: oh. well that's just bloody fantastic. thanks!
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2015-03-19T03:05:09Z lemonade`: that's what I was looking for.
2015-03-19T03:06:48Z drmeister: And if you want C++ interoperation my implementation Clasp:   github.com/drmeister/clasp   is what you want.
2015-03-19T03:06:54Z oGMo: you could also call C from CL with a callback, from nearly any lisp
2015-03-19T03:09:12Z lemonade`: thanks, but I try to keep my distance from C++
2015-03-19T03:10:08Z lemonade`: oGMo: how so? I saw something using defcallback, but I searched the hyperspec for it and nothing came up so I guessed it was nonstandard
2015-03-19T03:10:41Z oGMo: lemonade`: it's not The Standard, it's a CFFI thing
2015-03-19T03:10:55Z drmeister: It is not part of the Common Lisp standard but FFI's are pretty similar across different implementations.
2015-03-19T03:11:55Z drmeister: beach mentioned something about associating additional data with instances of classes using CLOS "stealth mixins" or something like that - does that ring any bells with anyone?
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2015-03-19T03:12:30Z oGMo: of course that doesn't help if you want to e.g. write JNI or something you would need CL to make a .so for, but then you could in theory just write ECL, or use ABCL, or something
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2015-03-19T03:13:21Z oGMo: drmeister: no but if you're talking just CL there are probably a zillion ways to do that, aside from the straightforward way of "just mixing it in"
2015-03-19T03:14:13Z alpha-: /topic outdated? isn't sbcl 1.2.9 out already
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2015-03-19T03:18:09Z drmeister: oGMo: I found a talk he gave on it. http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/gsharp-se.pdf
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2015-03-19T03:36:18Z drmeister: Did anyone submit an abstract for the ELS meeting?
2015-03-19T03:36:45Z drmeister: If so - have you heard from the organizers?
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2015-03-19T03:45:58Z burtonmz: testing
2015-03-19T03:46:07Z pjb: -
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2015-03-19T04:08:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-03-19T04:09:46Z burtonmz2: morning beach
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2015-03-19T04:10:51Z burtons`: i tried compiling climatis in mezzano earlier
2015-03-19T04:11:00Z beach: OK.
2015-03-19T04:11:02Z beach: And?
2015-03-19T04:11:13Z burtons`: closette doesn't define enough clos
2015-03-19T04:11:21Z beach: Oh! :(
2015-03-19T04:11:27Z beach: Yeah, I use CLOS a lot.
2015-03-19T04:11:36Z burtons`: yeah, dissapointing
2015-03-19T04:12:04Z burtons`: something to do with definining generic methods
2015-03-19T04:12:27Z burtons`: i can't rememeber off the top of my head
2015-03-19T04:12:32Z beach: So the first step would be to improve the Common Lisp system in Mezzano.
2015-03-19T04:12:44Z burtons`: yes, i've been finding holes here and there
2015-03-19T04:12:54Z burtons`: no adjust array for higher dimensional arrays
2015-03-19T04:13:01Z burtons`: missing clos'isms
2015-03-19T04:13:15Z burtons`: lots of todos
2015-03-19T04:13:26Z burtons`: but anyways, i'm off of to bed
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2015-03-19T04:14:25Z beach: Mezzano needs a Cleavir-based compiler and SICL CLOS. :)
2015-03-19T04:16:14Z drmeister: Hey beach - I'm trying your stealth mixing.
2015-03-19T04:16:30Z beach: Good.  It's pretty neat.
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2015-03-19T04:16:45Z beach: Amazing what one can do with Common Lisp, isn't it?
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2015-03-19T04:18:58Z drmeister: Yes
2015-03-19T04:19:19Z drmeister: I got through the compilation of a minimal Clasp environment (no CLOS)
2015-03-19T04:19:28Z drmeister: It segfaults when I start it so I'm debugging.
2015-03-19T04:19:49Z beach: "step by step" as you said.
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2015-03-19T04:20:07Z drmeister: The problem appears to be that some call instructions are not being converted to invokes so stack unwinding isn't working properly.
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2015-03-19T04:20:30Z drmeister: I'm attaching an ID to every cleavir-ir:instruction so that I can track things easier.
2015-03-19T04:20:51Z drmeister: I also discovered another recursive traversal that blows out the stack.
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2015-03-19T04:21:14Z drmeister: I'll get it to you as soon as I get back to that point.
2015-03-19T04:21:27Z beach: Yeah, there are still several of them left.
2015-03-19T04:21:43Z beach: Ultimately, they will all be converted.
2015-03-19T04:21:47Z drmeister: Can you remind me how you traverse HIR now?
2015-03-19T04:21:56Z beach: Iteratively?
2015-03-19T04:22:24Z beach: I manage a stack (in the form of a list) of nodes to visit.
2015-03-19T04:22:52Z drmeister: Right - but what is the function again?  map-something-or-other
2015-03-19T04:22:52Z beach: Each time I visit a node, I push the children on the stack (unless they have already been processed)
2015-03-19T04:23:13Z beach: Initially, the stack contains only the initial instruction.
2015-03-19T04:23:15Z beach: That's it.
2015-03-19T04:23:26Z drmeister: What's the name of the map function?
2015-03-19T04:23:32Z drmeister: map-instructions?
2015-03-19T04:24:00Z beach: Yes.  There are a few others, like MAP-INSTRUCTIONS-ARBITRARY-ORDER.
2015-03-19T04:25:04Z drmeister: (map-instructions (lambda (instr) ...) top-instruction)   ?
2015-03-19T04:25:11Z beach: Yes.
2015-03-19T04:25:26Z drmeister: I still haven't heard anything from the ELS organizers.
2015-03-19T04:25:45Z beach: I made a note to write to him today.  I forgot the other day. :(
2015-03-19T04:27:48Z drmeister: stealth-mixins work
2015-03-19T04:28:21Z drmeister: I'm assigning every instruction an integer index.
2015-03-19T04:28:27Z beach: Of course.  They were invented by one of the smartest Common Lisp hackers I know
2015-03-19T04:28:52Z beach: I merely wrote the paper.
2015-03-19T04:29:21Z drmeister: I mean they work in Clasp with ECL whatever-mop
2015-03-19T04:29:36Z beach: Oh, I see.
2015-03-19T04:29:51Z drmeister: Straight out of your talk.  http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/gsharp-se.pdf
2015-03-19T04:30:09Z drmeister: It is pretty neat.
2015-03-19T04:31:02Z beach: Thanks.
2015-03-19T04:31:33Z beach: It was fun to go to Australia to present the paper too. :)
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2015-03-19T04:32:34Z drmeister: Does map-instructions traverse the instructions like traverse did - in the same order?
2015-03-19T04:32:44Z drmeister: Was it depth first?
2015-03-19T04:32:54Z beach: It is explained in detail in the comment.
2015-03-19T04:33:05Z beach: There are other versions that use a different order.
2015-03-19T04:33:20Z beach: But they have not been tested yet.
2015-03-19T04:33:26Z Quadrescence: beach, you're like the Lisp version of Knuth
2015-03-19T04:34:05Z beach: Oh?  How so?  I assume that's a compliment?
2015-03-19T04:35:09Z Quadrescence: compiler from scratch, mcclim, homebrew metafont, gsharp
2015-03-19T04:35:24Z beach: Oh, that! *blush*
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2015-03-19T04:38:48Z beach: Quadrescence: That's my way of learning things.  And once I did it, I might as well put it out there.
2015-03-19T04:38:57Z Quadrescence: Agree.
2015-03-19T04:40:40Z drmeister: beach: Given an instruction - what is the easiest way to iterate over its datums?   Loop over inputs and outputs?
2015-03-19T04:40:52Z beach: Yes.
2015-03-19T04:41:35Z beach: If you don't care about consing, append the inputs and outputs: (loop for datum in (append (inputs instruction) (outputs instruction)) ...)
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2015-03-19T04:44:17Z Quadrescence: will SICL/CLEAVIR recognize that (loop for x in (append A B) do) === (loop for x in A do) (loop for x in B do)
2015-03-19T04:44:47Z beach: Not any time soon I think.
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2015-03-19T04:47:30Z drmeister: Got it.
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2015-03-19T05:48:40Z pillton: beach: Do you have special operators to switch environments in SICL?
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2015-03-19T05:55:08Z beach: pillton: Sorry, had to reboot.
2015-03-19T05:55:21Z beach: pillton: No, I haven't thought about that yet.
2015-03-19T05:56:28Z pillton: After (quickly) reading the protocol in your paper I think there may be a few issues to do with packages.
2015-03-19T05:56:41Z pillton: Especially if you can switch environments.
2015-03-19T05:56:57Z beach: What are the issues?
2015-03-19T05:57:15Z pillton: It appears a single package can be shared between two packages but under different names.
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2015-03-19T05:57:45Z pillton: Which is fine, but do you want things like EXPORT working across the two environments?
2015-03-19T05:58:26Z beach: pillton: What would that mean?
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2015-03-19T06:00:13Z beach: pillton: As far as I am concerned, EXPORT means that a particular symbol is available without a package prefix.
2015-03-19T06:00:51Z beach: I don't think that involves the environment in any way, does it?
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2015-03-19T06:03:08Z beach: So PACKAGE-NAME:SYMBOL-NAME means "Find the package named PACKAGE-NAME.  Check whether there is an exported symbol in there named SYMBOL-NAME.  If so return it.  Otherwise, complain." or something like that.
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2015-03-19T06:03:25Z beach: No?
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2015-03-19T06:06:39Z pillton: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146366
2015-03-19T06:07:10Z pillton: Oh, the calls to eval aren't needed.
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2015-03-19T06:08:38Z beach: pillton: I don't know what with-environment i supposed to do.  I haven't planned anything like that.
2015-03-19T06:09:11Z beach: But let me see if I understand...
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2015-03-19T06:09:50Z beach: Yes, I think you are right.
2015-03-19T06:09:57Z beach: No error signaled.
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2015-03-19T06:11:44Z beach: pillton: It is a bit strange, because your WITH-ENVIRONMENT forms will presumably be read in one environment and evaluated in another.
2015-03-19T06:12:33Z pillton: Yeah, but env-1 and env-2 share the same root environment.
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2015-03-19T06:13:02Z pillton: Actually, as written, env-2 has env-1 in it.
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2015-03-19T06:13:22Z beach: I believe you. :)
2015-03-19T06:14:56Z beach: pillton: So are the issues resolved?
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2015-03-19T06:19:12Z pillton: I'm not sure. I will just keep thinking about it.
2015-03-19T06:19:26Z beach: OK.  Let me know the result.
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2015-03-19T06:20:21Z pillton notes there is no copy-package.
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2015-03-19T06:23:35Z pjb: pillton: speak for yourself! com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:copy-package
2015-03-19T06:23:55Z pillton wonders what pjb hasn't done.
2015-03-19T06:24:14Z pjb: copy-package is ten years old! 2005-03-17
2015-03-19T06:24:35Z pillton: Heh.
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2015-03-19T06:57:50Z beach: pillton: Also COPY-ENVIRONMENT might not do what you think.  For instance suppose in some environment E1 there is a function F that calls a function G, then you copy E1 to create E2 and you make E2 the current package.  You may redefine G in E2, but F in E2 will still call the one in E1.
2015-03-19T07:00:39Z pillton: Yep. There are all sorts of implications aren't there.
2015-03-19T07:01:18Z beach: Yes.  This particular one is a consequence of the performance requirement.  Functions are "linked" to a particular environment when they are "loaded".
2015-03-19T07:02:51Z beach: In the paper, I try to make it clear that first-class global environments were not meant as an additional tool for the application programmer, so one should not imagine too many interesting things that the application programmer might want to do with them.
2015-03-19T07:06:33Z beach: But I must not have made it that clear, because some referees want example of how to use first-class global environments.  I guess I could include code such as (defun fdefinition (name) (sicl-global-environment:fdefinition name (current-environment))) but such examples will quickly get very boring.
2015-03-19T07:07:09Z pillton: It would be great to be able to preserve an environment.
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2015-03-19T07:07:54Z beach: Define "preserve"?
2015-03-19T07:08:41Z pillton: (with-new-environment (setf (symbol-function 'name) #'blah))
2015-03-19T07:09:23Z beach: That one is easy.
2015-03-19T07:09:42Z beach: Just copy the environment and evaluate in the new one.
2015-03-19T07:09:57Z pillton: How is that different to what I posted before?
2015-03-19T07:10:06Z beach: The original environment will not have changed.
2015-03-19T07:10:51Z beach: It is not different.  I didn't say what you posted before could not be done.
2015-03-19T07:11:28Z beach: You just have to think about semantics a bit.
2015-03-19T07:11:47Z pillton: That is what I was trying to do with packages.
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2015-03-19T07:12:36Z beach: I thought we agreed that your example with packages probably works, depending on what you mean by with-environment, etc.
2015-03-19T07:12:39Z beach: No?
2015-03-19T07:13:30Z pillton: Ok. Confusion on my behalf then.
2015-03-19T07:13:57Z beach: The thing with with-environment is that the entire form will be compiled and loaded in the current environment, say E1 so that SETF, SYMBOL-FUNCTION, and BLA will be resolved with respect to E1.
2015-03-19T07:15:22Z beach: A better example would be: (switch-environments (copy-environment (current-environmetn))) and then (setf (symbol-function ...))
2015-03-19T07:16:23Z beach: But again, I haven't worked out how the application programmer would manipulate first-class global environments, because it is not meant as a feature for the application programmer.
2015-03-19T07:16:31Z pillton: The term "new" above should have been "saved". That was my intent.
2015-03-19T07:17:03Z pillton: I think it is worth thinking about. I am not big fan of 'god' functionality.
2015-03-19T07:17:45Z beach: Let me get this straight.  You want the environment to be restored after that form is evaluated so that there is no change to the binding of NAME?
2015-03-19T07:17:56Z pillton: Yeah.
2015-03-19T07:18:54Z beach: Then, modulo the semantics I warned about, copying the current environment and saving it somewhere, and then restoring the saved environment after evaluation will work.  The problem is that I don't know how to do it with a form like that.
2015-03-19T07:20:31Z beach: pillton: What kind of 'god' functionality are we talking about here that you are not a fan of?
2015-03-19T07:21:32Z pillton: When you said it wasn't meant to be a feature for the application programmer.
2015-03-19T07:22:13Z beach: Of course it will be available to the application programmer.
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2015-03-19T07:23:15Z beach: When I say "it is not meant to...." I mean "I will not give any thought to making this feature super-convenient to use.  You figure it out!".
2015-03-19T07:23:31Z pillton: Oh ok.
2015-03-19T07:23:57Z beach: It will be used for things like bootstrapping and setting the evaluation environment for the compiler.
2015-03-19T07:24:55Z beach: So there will be no point in complaining that "Oh, but my WITH-ENVIRONMENT does not work as I expected.".
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2015-03-19T07:25:47Z pillton: Sure. No problem.
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2015-03-19T07:26:10Z beach: pillton: But I must thank you, because now I have a good idea of the kind of questions I will be asked after my presentation. :)
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2015-03-19T07:26:40Z beach: I'll make a slide that answers such questions. :)
2015-03-19T07:27:54Z beach: pillton: In fact (SWITCH-ENVIRONMENTS ...) might not even work.
2015-03-19T07:28:07Z pillton: So based on this discussion, there are three easy use cases: (1) preserving the current environment (2) compile using environment and (3) load using environment.
2015-03-19T07:28:29Z beach: Sounds right.
2015-03-19T07:28:44Z beach: And bootstrapping.
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2015-03-19T07:31:18Z beach: I currently have a SICL first-class global environment defined inside SBCL, and I can evaluate forms in it, including (cl:defun cl:cons () cl:nil) and nothing bad happens.
2015-03-19T07:31:52Z Shinmera: pillton: these use-cases are most interesting to avoid things like version clashes in libraries.
2015-03-19T07:32:15Z beach: Er, nothing bad happens to my SBCL, I should have said.
2015-03-19T07:32:33Z pillton: beach: So, that includes the modifications to the reader?
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2015-03-19T07:33:44Z pillton: Shinmera: Not only that, but to try out ideas too.
2015-03-19T07:33:49Z beach: pillton: Not sure what you are asking.  Obviously if I redefine CONS in my SICL environment, I can no longer evaluate forms that call CONS and expect it to allocate a CONS cell.
2015-03-19T07:33:56Z Shinmera: pillton: of course.
2015-03-19T07:37:35Z pillton: beach: When you say evaluate, you mean (sicl:eval (sicl:read-from-string "(cl:defun ...)")) where sicl:read-from-string knows about first class environments.
2015-03-19T07:39:06Z beach: pillton: You can view it that way.  But I also have a function in that environment called REPL that allows me to do interactive evaluation as usual.
2015-03-19T07:39:52Z pillton: beach: Ok. Great. I don't have to implement that stuff then to try stuff out.
2015-03-19T07:40:30Z Shinmera: Shouldn't the reader not have to know about any of this? I mean, the affected parts are INTERN, FIND-SYMBOL, etc. that don't have anything strictly to do with the reader algorithm.
2015-03-19T07:40:35Z beach: pillton: Uh oh.  You need to tell me the day you want to try that out.  It is not ready for prime time yet.
2015-03-19T07:41:19Z beach: pillton:  My main activity now is bringing up a complete SICL environment embedded in SBCL or some other Common Lisp implementation.
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2015-03-19T07:46:53Z pillton: beach: Ok. No worries.
2015-03-19T07:48:37Z pillton: Shinmera: The reader has to know about the environment as the environment, according to beach's paper, defines how symbol tokens are resolved to symbol objects.
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2015-03-19T07:50:12Z pillton: I have to go. I'll check in later tonight.
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2015-03-19T10:37:17Z dim: (let ((l (list 1 2 3 4))) (loop for i in l when (= i 2) do (setf i 5)) l)
2015-03-19T10:37:24Z dim: of course it's not replacing 2 in the list
2015-03-19T10:37:52Z dim: is there a known standard way to do that, or do I have to write my own list traversal function?
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2015-03-19T10:38:23Z dim: I would be using substitute here if I had a "static" replacement item
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2015-03-19T10:38:31Z dim: in my code the new item depends on the current one
2015-03-19T10:39:13Z dim: (let ((l (list 1 2 3 4))) (loop for i in l when (= i 2) do (setf i (+ i 3))) l) would be a better test case
2015-03-19T10:39:31Z dim: (where I can't see how to use substitute, that is)
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2015-03-19T10:45:51Z dim: (let ((l (list 1 2 3 4))) (loop for i on l by #'cdr when (= (car i) 2) do (setf (car i) (+ (car i) 3))) l)
2015-03-19T10:45:51Z dim: ok
2015-03-19T10:50:53Z lieven: subst-if?
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2015-03-19T10:54:38Z lieven: or change them all with mapcar (lambda (x) (if (= x 2) (+ x 3) x)
2015-03-19T10:55:31Z pjb: dim: I don't understand how you could write pgloader and not know those basic things.
2015-03-19T10:56:03Z dim: pjb: thanks for the compliment I guess ;-)
2015-03-19T10:56:35Z pjb: I guess too, but its really puzzling, and perhaps, frightening.
2015-03-19T10:56:36Z dim: note that the question here isn't "why does it work that way", this I understand, but "is there something standard I've missed that would allow me to do it"
2015-03-19T10:56:48Z dim: learning the API takes much more time than understanding the basic principles
2015-03-19T10:57:01Z pjb: Perhaps.
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2015-03-19T10:57:44Z dim: here I found loop/on/by to do what I wanted (keep track of the place I want to change the value of), I'm sure something else exists, but in my understanding it's neither substitute, replace nor subst and derivatives
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2015-03-19T10:58:36Z dim: also I tend to question my current understanding a lot when writing new code and it doesn't work as intended on first test
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2015-03-19T10:58:59Z dim: the normal cycle is think, write, assess it's working as intended
2015-03-19T10:59:13Z pjb: Nothing else, in the standard. I've got somewhere a function that gives a list of cons cells from a list that could be used, but looping on probably does it more efficiently.
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2015-03-19T10:59:21Z dim: anytime that cycle is broken, there's something I missed, and I (try to) question every assumptions I made
2015-03-19T10:59:37Z dim: ok, so it's not unexpected that I didn't find it then ;-)
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2015-03-19T11:23:06Z myrkraverk: Can cffi or sbcl be used in the other direction, to make lisp functions loadable by C code, in .so files?
2015-03-19T11:23:24Z dim: myrkraverk: you have to use ECL or drmeister clasp project for that
2015-03-19T11:23:26Z pjb: Yes.
2015-03-19T11:23:33Z dim: maybe some other implementations?
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2015-03-19T11:23:51Z pjb: myrkraverk: have a look at http://www.xach.com/lisp/lispvan-2008-02-28.pdf
2015-03-19T11:24:07Z myrkraverk: pjb, thank you.
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2015-03-19T11:25:28Z Shinmera: dim: you could also use mapl
2015-03-19T11:25:36Z pjb: of course, it would be nice to have also a libsbcl.so in addition to libecl.so, but this requires some work with threads and other stuff.
2015-03-19T11:26:29Z dim: Shinmera: note that I want to setf here, to change the existing list, I want a destructive function
2015-03-19T11:27:11Z Shinmera: Yes exactly
2015-03-19T11:27:21Z Shinmera: that's what you can do with mapl.
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2015-03-19T11:28:42Z Shinmera: which is why I mentioned it.
2015-03-19T11:28:50Z dim: reading about it then, thanks
2015-03-19T11:29:20Z Shinmera: (mapl (lambda (a) (when (= (car a) 2) (setf (car a) 5)))) list)
2015-03-19T11:29:55Z dim: nice
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2015-03-19T13:11:38Z myrkraverk: dim, did you see my tweet reply to @postwait?
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2015-03-19T13:12:04Z dim: hehe, I didn't, I now have ;-)
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2015-03-19T13:12:19Z myrkraverk: C:
2015-03-19T13:12:31Z dim: you will like the famous Naggum's rant then, at http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3163193555464012@naggum.no.html
2015-03-19T13:13:03Z myrkraverk: I'm reading it now.
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2015-03-19T13:28:55Z jackdaniel: dim: thanks, very nice reading (:
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2015-03-19T13:47:29Z myrkraverk: What is the simplest way to assign/let/whatever elements of a list to named variables.  That is, given (list "a" "b" "c" "d") I want the strings assigned to a b c d.
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2015-03-19T13:48:30Z ggole: destructuring-bind
2015-03-19T13:48:31Z Shinmera: Are the strings and the variable names related?
2015-03-19T13:48:48Z myrkraverk: No, just the positions.
2015-03-19T13:48:58Z Shinmera: destructuring-bind will do fine then.
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2015-03-19T13:54:11Z myrkraverk: Yup, does the work just fine.
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2015-03-19T14:24:27Z flash-: Has anyone been able to get CommonQt running on Windows lately?
2015-03-19T14:26:22Z flash-: I have Qt485 and CommonQt in my path, but when I run (ql:quickload "qt") I get https://gist.github.com/anonymous/1919799b0f26d61005de
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2015-03-19T14:27:59Z Shinmera: I'm not sure if this is it, but you might have to use a 32x CL implementation.
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2015-03-19T14:28:54Z flash-: That might be worth a try. Thanks, I didn't think about that.
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2015-03-19T14:32:04Z hitecnologys: That does indeed seem like a x86 library. Are you running x86_64 system?
2015-03-19T14:32:43Z flash-: Yes, I'm running the 64 bit version of SBCL.
2015-03-19T14:33:16Z hitecnologys: Then I'd better install/compile 64-bit version of commonqt.dll.
2015-03-19T14:34:10Z Shinmera: Compiling it will be hell
2015-03-19T14:34:14Z hitecnologys: Didn't stassats compile it that time? I thought he did 64-bit thing.
2015-03-19T14:34:18Z Shinmera: And it requires Visual Studio
2015-03-19T14:34:26Z Shinmera: No, only 32x are on the website iirc
2015-03-19T14:34:30Z flash-: I think installing a 32bit SBCL is going to be quicker. I have about 5 versions of Qt installed, and adding yet another one plus going through the hassle of compiling CommonQt - Ugh.
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2015-03-19T14:34:39Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2015-03-19T14:35:17Z hitecnologys: Right, I agree.
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2015-03-19T14:35:37Z hitecnologys: But, again, this doesn't free us from the fact that somebody needs to compile 64-bit dll.
2015-03-19T14:35:50Z flash-: I can get a lot of stuff to compile in Visual Studio, so if I need it one day, I can still give it a try. Right now, I just want to try some things in CommonQt.
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2015-03-19T14:36:25Z Shinmera: I went through the torturous process of compiling it myself once. I'm not going to do it again.
2015-03-19T14:37:01Z flash-: I even got Qt to compile in Visual Studio 2013 when only 2010 was officially supported.
2015-03-19T14:37:03Z drmeister: Hey flash-: I've compiled the minimal Clasp (no CLOS) with Cleavir/Clasp - I'm just tracking down execution bugs now.
2015-03-19T14:37:27Z hitecnologys: Let's just wait for stassats to do it then. I think he has all the stuff set up.
2015-03-19T14:37:38Z Shinmera: He won't do it though.
2015-03-19T14:37:42Z hitecnologys: By the way, has anybody seen him recently?
2015-03-19T14:37:50Z Shinmera: Stassats is waiting for Clasp to get going so that he can cut out smoke altogether.
2015-03-19T14:38:02Z Xach: stassats does not join #lisp any more.
2015-03-19T14:38:04Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see.
2015-03-19T14:38:05Z Shinmera: He won't visit #lisp anymore. He's still in #sbcl and #clasp every day though
2015-03-19T14:38:15Z flash-: dmeister: Yeah, I'm reading #clasp. Since Shinmera started logging, I'm just lazy with logging in, and I don't have anything productive to add atm.
2015-03-19T14:38:15Z hitecnologys: Oh.
2015-03-19T14:38:30Z hitecnologys: I see.
2015-03-19T14:38:43Z flash-: drmeister: Your discussions with beach are very interesting, though.
2015-03-19T14:38:45Z hitecnologys: Well, it's good to know he's at least alive.
2015-03-19T14:39:39Z hitecnologys: Is Clasp that smoke port to CL or my memory fails me again?
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2015-03-19T14:40:17Z p_l: CommonQT was the smoke-related library
2015-03-19T14:40:33Z flash-: minion: Tell hitecnologys about clasp
2015-03-19T14:40:33Z minion: hitecnologys: clasp: An implementation of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++ and uses LLVM to generate native code
2015-03-19T14:40:34Z jackdaniel: hitecnologys: clasp is implementation of CL
2015-03-19T14:40:51Z hitecnologys: Ah, right, thanks.
2015-03-19T14:42:23Z flash-: I really wish clasp was in a state right now as it will hopefully be in two years. I could really need it right now.
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2015-03-19T14:44:02Z jackdaniel: flash-: for what purpose?
2015-03-19T14:44:12Z jackdaniel: i mean usecase
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2015-03-19T14:44:52Z flash-: jackdaniel: A clean and fast interface with Qt on Windows.
2015-03-19T14:45:35Z flash-: I'm in the process of starting a company, but I don't think I can convince my cofounders to use lisp without that feature ;-)
2015-03-19T14:45:54Z jackdaniel: hmm, there is eql (on top of ecl), or from ecl you can operate with c++
2015-03-19T14:45:56Z p_l would probably go rather for an updated form of RDNZL
2015-03-19T14:46:07Z p_l: at least for windows
2015-03-19T14:46:21Z drmeister: Once I get Cleavir/Clasp working then progress should be faster to make it performant.   Cleavir has a very clean interface for adding optimizations.
2015-03-19T14:47:17Z flash-: jackdaniel: I have eql working, but I couldn't make it work with slime on windows.
2015-03-19T14:47:23Z drmeister: ECL does not operate with C++ well enough to support something like Qt.  You have to write C wrappers for everything.
2015-03-19T14:48:35Z flash-: Wow, it seems like installing 32bit SBCL automatically uninstalled 64bit SBCL without informing or asking me.
2015-03-19T14:49:32Z Shinmera: You might also try CCL -- that works fine with Common Qt and usually includes both 64 and 32x versions.
2015-03-19T14:49:35Z jackdaniel: drmeister: you mean even when compiled with option --with-c++ ?
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2015-03-19T14:49:59Z Shinmera: CCL also works with Qt callbacks out of the box. I think SBCL still needs non-standard compile options for that.
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2015-03-19T14:50:50Z flash-: Thanks for the hint.
2015-03-19T14:51:04Z p_l: Shinmera: afaik SBCL never needed anything special, as SMOKE does plain old C callbacks
2015-03-19T14:51:14Z p_l: the problem is that you need to ensure certain things about threads
2015-03-19T14:51:39Z Shinmera: Callback from foreign threads, yes. I was being ambiguous, sorry.
2015-03-19T14:51:51Z Shinmera: https://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#Known_Issues
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2015-03-19T14:53:03Z p_l: generally, threads created by foreign code are bad, because signals :|
2015-03-19T14:53:25Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Yes.
2015-03-19T14:53:26Z foom: We use threads created by foreign threads a lot, without issue.
2015-03-19T14:54:05Z p_l: foom: iirc it depends on situation, things can get funny if certain conditions are met as SBCL depends on having its own handlers on certain signals
2015-03-19T14:54:23Z Shinmera: p_l: I still haven't tested this yet, but last time I tried using CL threads to perform Qt calls such as Painting resulted in a) memory corruptions b) completely unpredictable painting behaviour
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2015-03-19T14:54:40Z Shinmera: By "not tested this yet" I meant testing using QThreads instead of CL threads.
2015-03-19T14:55:07Z oGMo: gtk3 perhaps?
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2015-03-19T14:55:10Z foom: oh, I haven't actually done lisp callbacks on C-created threads.
2015-03-19T14:55:15Z oGMo: not helpful if you have qt code sadly
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2015-03-19T14:55:29Z p_l: QT code needs to run from specific thread with a wrapper anyway, QThreads generally are asking for hurt
2015-03-19T14:55:39Z p_l: CCL apparently lucks out on its behaviour
2015-03-19T14:55:54Z foom: Indeed that doesn't "just work" on sbcl without doing extra things. But having extra C-created threads running C code in them causes no issues for SBCL.
2015-03-19T14:56:00Z Shinmera: Well I can't avoid using threads in my situation. :/
2015-03-19T14:56:17Z p_l: foom: afaik there's also possible issue if you get a signal in foreign thread
2015-03-19T14:56:47Z foom: p_l: I can tell you from experience there isn't. Also, the code handles that by resignaling certain things to lisp threads if the thread that got it was a C thread.
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2015-03-19T14:57:06Z foom: Both what the code is supposed to do and what seems to happen in practice say it's fine. :)
2015-03-19T14:58:20Z p_l: foom: back when I looked into it, there was generally some code that tried to set certain behaviours so that lisp would get to resignal properly, but there was a window of chance between pthread_create() and when the handlers would get set by SBCL
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2015-03-19T14:58:25Z p_l: mind you, it's been some time :)
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2015-03-19T15:02:32Z scymtym_: Shinmera: i don't know how thoroughly this has been tested, but callbacks from foreign threads should apparently work in non-safepoint builds of recent SBCL (http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/476c3ffe49564c007b513485f6e2f27f8a6e586b)
2015-03-19T15:03:38Z Shinmera: scymtym_: If I have the time I'll test it.
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2015-03-19T15:04:00Z Shinmera: scymtym_: On an unrelated note: Are you coming to ELS?
2015-03-19T15:04:25Z scymtym_: Shinmera: no, sadly
2015-03-19T15:04:31Z Shinmera: Ah, a shame.
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2015-03-19T15:11:39Z flash-: OK, I can get CommonQt to install now. Unfortunately it doesn't really work, it just silently hangs and doesn't return.
2015-03-19T15:11:51Z flash-: Perhaps I should try CCL.
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2015-03-19T15:16:46Z Shinmera: IIRC there's an issue with threads and qt in general on windows
2015-03-19T15:16:54Z Shinmera: where Qt can only run from the main thread or something like that
2015-03-19T15:17:02Z Shinmera: So slime might cause that to break.
2015-03-19T15:17:36Z flash-: You're right, I read that yesterday, and forgot today. It's on the CommonQt homepage. *facepalm*
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2015-03-19T15:18:11Z Shinmera: Windows is not a nice experience :/
2015-03-19T15:18:45Z flash-: Yes, I got CommonQt to run on Linux in a few minutes.
2015-03-19T15:18:49Z Shinmera: If at all possible I'd suggest to develop on linux and only deploy to windows.
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2015-03-19T15:19:20Z p_l: on WinAPI, GUI message queue needs to be accessed in apropriate way to prevent issues. On OSX, now, that's where you get issues (only initial thread can access GUI)
2015-03-19T15:19:31Z flash-: Yes, but that involves first finding out whether it works on windows at all.
2015-03-19T15:19:43Z Shinmera: It does work, I've done it before :)
2015-03-19T15:19:59Z p_l: I think I did as well
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2015-03-19T15:21:04Z flash-: OK, let's say "whether I can get it to work on windows" :-P
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2015-03-19T15:28:13Z shka: hi
2015-03-19T15:28:44Z shka: why queue class here https://github.com/oconnore/funds/blob/master/src/queue.lisp is not made external?
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2015-03-19T15:29:01Z shka: i would like to add method for it
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2015-03-19T15:30:21Z Xach: shka: I don't know about that specific case, but it could be because the author does not intend for it to be extended with new methods
2015-03-19T15:30:50Z shka: ok
2015-03-19T15:30:58Z shka: that kinda makes sense
2015-03-19T15:31:10Z shka: maybe i will not violate this
2015-03-19T15:31:16Z shka: hopefully typecase will work
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2015-03-19T15:38:28Z flash-: OK, CommonQt is now working. Thanks again, everyone, especially Shinmera.
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2015-03-19T15:38:57Z Shinmera: Why especially me
2015-03-19T15:39:22Z Shinmera: Oh -- let me know if you can get Qtools to run.
2015-03-19T15:39:34Z Shinmera: I haven't really tested it much on CCL and not at all on Windows.
2015-03-19T15:39:49Z flash-: Because at two places you had the right answer.
2015-03-19T15:39:57Z flash-: Still on SBCL.
2015-03-19T15:40:30Z Shinmera: Alright.
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2015-03-19T15:41:25Z flash-: I needed to start SBCL first and then slime-connect.
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2015-03-19T16:19:18Z jasom: FWIW, I think there is a way to get slime to run completely single-threaded; some things are just very unpleasant when you do that.
2015-03-19T16:19:26Z oleo: ok i need a help on this one, http://paste.lisp.org/+34XN, i got my file to display the style that actually is used by pprint-defpackage in pprint.lisp in sbcl, but i wonder why do i have to use that format spec when it is already supposed to be in my *print-pprint-dispatch* table, the output is like the second in http://paste.lisp.org/+34V4/1
2015-03-19T16:19:46Z oleo: when i don't use that spec
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2015-03-19T16:20:12Z oleo: any help is appreciated.....
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2015-03-19T16:20:43Z oleo: it is a complet defpackage form which is read in
2015-03-19T16:20:49Z oleo: i don't get it
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2015-03-19T16:22:01Z jasom: you need ~:W to print with format if you want *print-pretty* to be bound to true I think
2015-03-19T16:22:09Z oleo: *print-pretty* is true globally and the defpackage pprinter should be active, but actually printing it is like it ignores the print-pprint-dispatch table
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2015-03-19T16:22:49Z oleo: jasom: no you don't get it i already tried that, when you use that you have to also enable *print-escape* to to
2015-03-19T16:22:59Z oleo: s/to/true/
2015-03-19T16:23:23Z oleo: mine contains keywords and #: prefixed words
2015-03-19T16:23:31Z oleo: otherwise those get stripped
2015-03-19T16:24:32Z oleo: the problem is not that actually, i use the  pprint-defpackage format spec extra with W's replaced by s
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2015-03-19T16:24:53Z smokeink: (defun f(a . b)  a)  is there any way to have the car and cdr of a list as parameters for f? so when i call (f '(1 2)) it returns (1) ?
2015-03-19T16:25:12Z oleo: that's all, but what i don't get is why do i have to use that spec anyway, it is supposed to be already in my pprint-dispatch-table
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2015-03-19T16:25:36Z Bicyclidine: smokeink: (defun f (a &rest b) a)
2015-03-19T16:26:12Z smokeink: (f '(1 2 3)) returns (1 2 3)
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2015-03-19T16:26:35Z Bicyclidine: er, right, you want it destructured.
2015-03-19T16:26:41Z smokeink: yes
2015-03-19T16:26:44Z Bicyclidine: well, (defun f (a) (car a)) would be the obvious.
2015-03-19T16:26:44Z hitecnologys: Are there any working backup solutions in CL besides do-backup which I found on Cliki? I'm writing my own for the sake of learning and I'd like to examine what else is on the market.
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2015-03-19T16:27:37Z smokeink: i need to operate with the (car a) inside f.. that means i ought to use a (let ((x (car a))) form ? ..
2015-03-19T16:27:48Z Bicyclidine: sure
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2015-03-19T16:28:35Z smokeink: no simpler way? i remember i saw in some book that in this situation there s a way without "let", but i can't remember where i saw it ..
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2015-03-19T16:31:13Z Bicyclidine: if it was a macro you could use a destructuring lambda list, but it's not.
2015-03-19T16:31:14Z oleo: multiple-value-bind
2015-03-19T16:31:37Z Bicyclidine: you could also do (defun f (a) (destructuring-bind ((a . ignore)) (declare (ignore ignore)) ...)) but that's just the same as the let.
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2015-03-19T16:38:05Z oleo: (let ((my '(1 2 3))) (destructuring-bind (a & rest b) my (values a b)))
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2015-03-19T16:41:11Z myrkraverk: With (loop for line = (read-line foo nil) while line until (bar line)) ; can I make the loop construct return the value of (bar line) ?
2015-03-19T16:41:33Z oleo: finally
2015-03-19T16:41:41Z oleo: with a finally clause
2015-03-19T16:41:47Z myrkraverk: Ok.
2015-03-19T16:41:55Z oleo: like finally (return (bar line)) or so
2015-03-19T16:42:29Z myrkraverk: Ok.
2015-03-19T16:42:58Z oleo: no wait
2015-03-19T16:43:02Z oleo: you said until
2015-03-19T16:43:04Z oleo: heh
2015-03-19T16:43:24Z oleo: dunno but sounds like disclusive not inclusive
2015-03-19T16:44:25Z oleo: wait you said while line, so it is inclusive....
2015-03-19T16:44:28Z mood: myrkraverk: You can replace "until (bar line)" with "when (bar line) return it"
2015-03-19T16:44:35Z mood: perhaps
2015-03-19T16:44:37Z oleo: jep
2015-03-19T16:45:13Z oleo: when is better.....
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2015-03-19T16:50:09Z myrkraverk: Oh, great.
2015-03-19T16:50:15Z myrkraverk: Now I have no idea if I've missed anything.
2015-03-19T16:50:24Z oleo: ?
2015-03-19T16:50:28Z hitecnologys: myrkraverk: there are logs.
2015-03-19T16:50:56Z hitecnologys: myrkraverk: I remember Shinmera had a very nice wrapper over them.
2015-03-19T16:51:03Z myrkraverk: right, thanks.
2015-03-19T16:51:26Z Shinmera: Colleen: chatlog
2015-03-19T16:51:26Z Colleen: "chatlog": Some channels are logged automatically. You can view the logs at http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/
2015-03-19T16:51:48Z jasom: myrkraverk: nothing was said in the 246 seconds you were gone, I think
2015-03-19T16:51:52Z hitecnologys: Oh, awesome.
2015-03-19T16:52:00Z jasom: Colleen: what can you do?
2015-03-19T16:52:01Z Colleen: "what can you do?": DOV 102,677 is a psychoactive drug being developed by Merck as an antidepressant and is currently in clinical trials.[1] It is a so-called triple (re)uptake inhibitor (TUI), or serotonin-norepinephrin... [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOV-102,677]
2015-03-19T16:52:15Z Shinmera: Colleen: help
2015-03-19T16:52:15Z Colleen: "help": You can retrieve general help information about me in the user manual: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=5A# . Otherwise help about commands can be retrieved with: !help command
2015-03-19T16:52:24Z Shinmera: And now please keep bot playing to privmsgs.
2015-03-19T16:52:32Z Shinmera: I'd hate to have my bot spam this channel further.
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2015-03-19T16:52:36Z myrkraverk: jasom, I missed oleo's help, though.
2015-03-19T16:52:39Z myrkraverk: so the logs helped C:
2015-03-19T16:52:44Z myrkraverk: thanks oleo
2015-03-19T16:52:52Z myrkraverk: Oh, and mood.
2015-03-19T16:53:10Z oleo: you missed ? ah you were offline ok
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2015-03-19T16:53:40Z myrkraverk: myrkraverk: You can replace "until (bar line)" with "when (bar line) return it" <---- that's the part I missed, among others; yes.
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2015-03-19T16:54:11Z oleo: noone answered mine.....yet
2015-03-19T16:54:26Z Bicyclidine: we have a bot that talks about random drugs in response to innocuous prompting? good job, shinmera.
2015-03-19T16:54:54Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: It does a wikipedia search and picks the first article for any term it isn't taught explicitly. Blame wikipedia search for that one.
2015-03-19T16:54:54Z clintm`: triple ssri?  hrm... interesting.
2015-03-19T16:55:22Z Bicyclidine: well, only a third of it is serotonin.
2015-03-19T16:55:38Z Shinmera has language parsing on his todo
2015-03-19T16:55:39Z clintm`: oh, well ppt... go big or go home.
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2015-03-19T17:00:13Z jasom: Shinmera: fwiw, doing a site:en.wikipedia.org search on google nearly always gets better results than using wikipedia's search
2015-03-19T17:00:55Z Shinmera: Google search crawling is explicitly prohibited and there's no gratis API anymore.
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2015-03-19T17:02:00Z jasom: oh
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2015-03-19T17:07:20Z myrkraverk: Hmm, there's no way to tell (open) not to throw an error on "Permission denied" is there?
2015-03-19T17:07:24Z myrkraverk: In sbcl.
2015-03-19T17:07:36Z Shinmera: What do you want it to do instead?
2015-03-19T17:07:41Z myrkraverk: return nil.
2015-03-19T17:07:45Z p_l: myrkraverk: just handle the exception?
2015-03-19T17:07:50Z p_l: would be better behaviour, IMO
2015-03-19T17:07:57Z myrkraverk: fair enough.
2015-03-19T17:08:12Z Shinmera: If you just want NIL stick it in IGNORE-ERRORS
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2015-03-19T17:12:02Z myrkraverk: Though if I handle the error, I can log it c;
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2015-03-19T17:36:18Z myrkraverk: dim, for the record, I've implemented enough of ~/.pgpass for my purposes (doesn't do the port number yet).
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2015-03-19T17:36:45Z myrkraverk: With the port number, whenever that'll happen, I'll probably blog it.
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2015-03-19T18:18:31Z oGMo: heh, yaml:parse should take a stream
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2015-03-19T18:25:25Z Oladon: Hrm... is there a better way to convert a char to a number than (parse-integer (string char))?
2015-03-19T18:26:22Z Shinmera: (- (char-code #\6) (char-code #\0))
2015-03-19T18:26:32Z Xach: Oladon: (digit-char-p char)
2015-03-19T18:26:51Z Xach: the subtraction method is not as good.
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2015-03-19T18:26:59Z Adlai: Shinmera: that is not portable, although i imagine it works on any implementation people actually use
2015-03-19T18:27:09Z Shinmera: Yeah, the subtraction breaks if the encoding doesn't have the numbers in sequence.
2015-03-19T18:27:27Z Shinmera: I was not aware that digit-char-p would make the conversion. The more I learn.
2015-03-19T18:27:30Z Xach: If there wasn't a standard function to do it, it could be an option.
2015-03-19T18:27:55Z Xach: http://lisptips.com/post/11312746879/converting-characters-to-integers
2015-03-19T18:28:42Z Oladon: Xach: ahh, I'd thought digit-char-p was a predicate...
2015-03-19T18:28:45Z Oladon: Thanks
2015-03-19T18:28:50Z Xach: It is
2015-03-19T18:29:18Z Shinmera: Generalised booleans are amazing.
2015-03-19T18:29:36Z Oladon: Xach: ah, perfect.
2015-03-19T18:29:50Z Xach wonders about privatized booleans 
2015-03-19T18:30:19Z dlowe: "specialized booleans"
2015-03-19T18:35:07Z myrkraverk: sb-posix doesn't have hostname.  Is there another way to get the hostname?
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2015-03-19T18:35:58Z Xach: myrkraverk: there are functions for that in sb-bsd-sockets.
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2015-03-19T18:36:14Z Xach: sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-<thing>
2015-03-19T18:37:16Z myrkraverk: Oh, I mean the hostname of the currently running system.  To generate the nickname for a slack bot.
2015-03-19T18:37:23Z oleo: getenv ?
2015-03-19T18:37:30Z oleo: sb-posix::getenv ?
2015-03-19T18:37:36Z myrkraverk: Apparently (machine-instance) might be it, or that.
2015-03-19T18:37:41Z myrkraverk: I'll try (machine-instance) first.
2015-03-19T18:38:15Z oleo: ah yep
2015-03-19T18:38:25Z myrkraverk: Yup, that one works.
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2015-03-19T18:41:00Z myrkraverk: Maybe I should publish this function, but I want to make it slightly more general first.
2015-03-19T18:41:26Z myrkraverk: Drakma and com.gigamonkeys.json make this very easy.
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2015-03-19T18:52:15Z dim uses yason
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2015-03-19T18:54:31Z Xach uses yason also, but recently found that cl-json is the most popular
2015-03-19T18:54:37Z Xach wonders if it's the name or what
2015-03-19T18:54:53Z H4ns: first kid on the block
2015-03-19T18:56:06Z hitecnologys: There's also jsown which is very fast and all.
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2015-03-19T18:59:43Z dlowe: there's no basis for comparison without actually trying it
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2015-03-19T19:00:36Z hitecnologys: One can compare relative speeds on the same data on the same hardware under approximately the same load.
2015-03-19T19:00:46Z oGMo: Xach: it's certainly what pops up at the top of my (system-apropos "json")
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2015-03-19T19:01:21Z oGMo: and iirc it's reasonably fast and the api had docs when i looked
2015-03-19T19:01:46Z oGMo: so, no reason to keep looking beyond that
2015-03-19T19:02:02Z hitecnologys: Cl-json is unreasonably slow. At least it was two years ago.
2015-03-19T19:02:05Z mood: I was a bit worried about the fact that it (at least by default) interns all object keys
2015-03-19T19:02:32Z hitecnologys: It turned out to be the slowest of all in my tests.
2015-03-19T19:02:49Z oGMo: mood: that's a problem with a lot of things unfortunately
2015-03-19T19:03:17Z mood: oGMo: Yes, sadly. At least Clack doesn't do it anymore
2015-03-19T19:03:21Z oGMo: also the use of the reader to parse numbers
2015-03-19T19:04:01Z pjb: myrkraverk: you cannot obtain THE hostname of a system, because systems always have more than one interface!
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2015-03-19T19:04:32Z oGMo: pjb: probably not the dns :p
2015-03-19T19:04:39Z myrkraverk: pjb, well, in this case, I want the name returned by hostname; the command.
2015-03-19T19:05:01Z pjb: there you go: run the command!
2015-03-19T19:05:15Z oGMo: man 2 gethostname
2015-03-19T19:06:18Z myrkraverk: As long as (machine-instance) returns the same value, I'm happy.
2015-03-19T19:06:25Z mood: Clisp returns "<hostname> [<ip>]" on (machine-instance), so watch out with that
2015-03-19T19:06:41Z myrkraverk: I'm sticking to sbcl, so that's not an issue.
2015-03-19T19:07:32Z myrkraverk: mood, but it's good to know if I publish my code; thank you.
2015-03-19T19:07:33Z dim: pjb: hostname ≠ fqdn
2015-03-19T19:07:36Z pjb: it's a conformity issue.
2015-03-19T19:07:54Z pjb: You cannot use machine-instance conformingly if you use it like that.
2015-03-19T19:08:25Z myrkraverk: What I need, is an identifier that tells me which machine sent a message to slack.
2015-03-19T19:08:27Z dim: pjb: he just said he doesn't care, my understanding is that he's new to CL, so maybe some context about what conformance is and why it's important would help here
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2015-03-19T19:08:45Z myrkraverk: If the format of (machine-instance) changes, and still identifies the machine, it's ok.
2015-03-19T19:09:23Z myrkraverk: dim, possibly.  But I'm about to go to bed; so a lecture has to wit.
2015-03-19T19:09:25Z myrkraverk: *wait.
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2015-03-19T19:48:58Z jasom: hmm, I want to search a tree and replace the occurence of one value in it with another.  Any suggestions other than writing it myself?
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2015-03-19T19:49:09Z Xach: jasom: subst
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2015-03-19T19:49:50Z jasom: oh, it's actually in the standard
2015-03-19T19:49:57Z jasom: tree stuff is hit-or-miss there, so I didn't even look
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2015-03-19T19:50:26Z Xach: in this case, it's a hit
2015-03-19T19:50:37Z Shinmera: CL is big enough that even in CL greenspunning happens.
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2015-03-19T19:51:41Z Xach: for some twisted interpretation of the term
2015-03-19T19:51:41Z shka: Shinmera: you made my day
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2015-03-19T19:54:55Z jasom: "Any sufficiently complicated CL program will contain a buggy ill-specified implementation of half of common lisp"
2015-03-19T19:55:21Z jasom: unless one asks in #lisp before implementing a utility function
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2015-03-19T19:57:08Z shka: jasom: worry not, i also reimplemented it
2015-03-19T19:57:28Z shka: kinda pointless but at least it was amusing
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2015-03-19T20:09:37Z ecraven: does slime somehow support nested presentations? like a list of objects which are themselves presentations?
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2015-03-19T20:10:03Z Adlai: what's this, a lisp machine!?
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2015-03-19T20:11:07Z pjb: ecraven: why don't you try it?
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2015-03-19T23:50:56Z clintm: Does Patrick Bourguignon hang out in here ever?
2015-03-19T23:51:08Z Bicyclidine: pjb?
2015-03-19T23:51:12Z clintm: oh
2015-03-19T23:51:13Z clintm: heh
2015-03-19T23:51:19Z Bicyclidine: though his name isn't patrick
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2015-03-19T23:51:29Z clintm: Pascal... sorry :(
2015-03-19T23:51:46Z Bicyclidine: "no, bicyclidine, i meant the other lisp person named bourguignon"
2015-03-19T23:52:48Z pjb: Sometimes.
2015-03-19T23:53:41Z clintm: pjb: I'm about to pull the trigger on buying mocl, but your tickets on their support site are causing me concern.
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2015-03-19T23:53:59Z pjb: They're causing me concern too :-(
2015-03-19T23:55:40Z pjb: Perhaps our time would be better spent improving ecl. It already runs nicely (eg. Android Maxima or Common Lisp REPL).  Compiled as a  libecl.a library it could be used in iOS apps too.
2015-03-19T23:55:52Z clintm: Ok, I think I'll wait a bit and read more.  The idea of having a common code base (in cl no less) is so enticing though.
2015-03-19T23:56:43Z pjb: What's mostly a concern, is that the bugs I've found, should have been found and corrected a long time ago by the author of MoCL.
2015-03-19T23:56:54Z pjb: He'd need to release more often.
2015-03-19T23:57:07Z clintm: It can be used in ios despite their ban, of sorts, on interpreted code?  Maybe they've gone back on that.  It's been about a year since I read that.
2015-03-19T23:57:39Z clintm: it seems that way to me too, especially the defmacro issue you pointed out.
2015-03-19T23:57:58Z clintm: or rather, the issue with macros within macros.
2015-03-19T23:58:21Z pjb: A little.  But if they don't change, they'll lose it to Android, or even, plain linux: http://linuxonandroid.org/
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