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2015-03-14T00:01:51Z jasom: I picked a random developer-oriented text-editor from my distro's package manager, and made it suck less at editing lisp. I don't recommend this as an exercise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieTJ2v424EE
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2015-03-14T00:02:51Z Shinmera: Neat, but why the effort?
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2015-03-14T00:02:52Z pjb: Did it involve linking it with libecl.so and starting from there?
2015-03-14T00:03:24Z pjb: and translating slime to Common Lisp?
2015-03-14T00:04:13Z jasom: pjb: no
2015-03-14T00:04:31Z jasom: pjb: that would be the Right Way to do it.
2015-03-14T00:04:34Z pjb: That would be the logical way to emacsify any editor.
2015-03-14T00:05:07Z jasom: translating slime to common lisp means translating ~30% of emacs core into common lisp
2015-03-14T00:05:22Z jasom: since it relies on things like emacs buffer manipulation
2015-03-14T00:05:29Z pjb: plus the socket and subprocess stuff.
2015-03-14T00:05:53Z pjb: and indeed, either mapping slime buffers to streams, and introducing a buffer abstraction in CL.
2015-03-14T00:06:18Z pjb: Since that'd be for an editor, you may want to have a buffer abstraction, and have concrete subclasses for specific editors.
2015-03-14T00:06:50Z jasom: Shinmera: I was hoping to come up with a way for non-emacs users to experience lisp without exposing them to emacs-phobia
2015-03-14T00:07:18Z Shinmera: jasom: Ah. In that case I'd go for one of the most popular IDEs rather than some strange outlier.
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2015-03-14T00:07:45Z jasom: Shinmera: I started using lisp with vim, which has not-too-terrible lisp indentation (and can be made better very trivially).  I tried a bunch of other editors in my distro's pacakge manager and found that approximately 0 of them support indenting via external programs (unlike vim).
2015-03-14T00:07:54Z Shinmera: Otherwise it might also be worth an effort to de-emacsify emacs so people can transition gradually.
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2015-03-14T00:08:40Z jasom: There is an emacs mode that gives you C-z C-c C-x C-v but I don't know how that plays with slime's C-c leader
2015-03-14T00:09:10Z Shinmera: That's far from the only thing that appears jarring to newcomers I'd say.
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2015-03-14T00:09:37Z jasom: Shinmera: that's the biggest one if you are running on X11
2015-03-14T00:09:43Z Shinmera: It would require quite a bit of effort, but I'd think it would be more worthwhile due to the potential of migration than trying to make another editor into emacs.
2015-03-14T00:10:58Z jasom: Shinmera: well I didn't make another editor into emacs; the final result is like ~200 lines of C and ~100 lines of lisp
2015-03-14T00:11:10Z jasom: I just wanted not-crappy indenting, really.
2015-03-14T00:11:46Z jasom: pick *any* random editor that isn't vim or emacs, open foo.lisp and start typing.  After less than 3 lines, you *will* be crying.
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2015-03-14T00:11:59Z Shinmera: I've been there.
2015-03-14T00:12:04Z Shinmera: Tears have been shed.
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2015-03-14T00:13:14Z Shinmera: Hm. Sublime seems to at least have a package that offers lisp indenting. Paredit too.
2015-03-14T00:13:14Z jasom: I always assumed that most editors had at least either roughly the vim-builtin lisp indenting available, or pluggable indenting.  It turns out you get C-ish and/or Java-ish and indenting isn't pluggable.
2015-03-14T00:13:19Z pjb: Really, emacs shouldn't be a problem for anybody.  It is a wisiwig text editor, with the usual feel: you type hello, and you get hello in your text buffer.
2015-03-14T00:13:43Z pjb: Same as in any editor, from Notepad to Pages.
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2015-03-14T00:14:12Z jasom: pjb: "I want to learn lisp, not a new editor" is the single most common response I see to "Use slime"
2015-03-14T00:14:28Z pjb: But it's dumb.
2015-03-14T00:14:30Z Shinmera: The question isn't about emacs being a problem. The question is about how to get problematic people to use lisp.
2015-03-14T00:14:46Z oGMo: and the answer is nil
2015-03-14T00:15:18Z pjb: Why?  Do you want to have problematic lisp coworkers?
2015-03-14T00:15:34Z Shinmera: I don't want anything. I'm merely debating.
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2015-03-14T00:16:26Z pjb: Those same guys will gladly embrace Xcode to develop for iOS, Android Studio to develop for Android, and whatever they use on MS-Windows to develop for MS-Windows…
2015-03-14T00:17:11Z jasom: pjb: For years I used emacs+slime as a debugger, and vim as an editor.  Now I use evil-mode.  I was going to write up my old workflow for those who don't want to leave their editors behind.
2015-03-14T00:17:35Z jasom: pjb: I used vim for all of my editing; most of those IDEs let you specify an external editor.
2015-03-14T00:17:49Z jasom: ooh, there's a solution, add external-editor support to emacs...
2015-03-14T00:17:50Z pjb: That's true, too.
2015-03-14T00:17:59Z pjb: :-)
2015-03-14T00:18:10Z pjb: M-! vi source.lisp RET
2015-03-14T00:18:22Z pjb: or perhaps: M-! xterm -e vi source.lisp RET
2015-03-14T00:18:38Z jasom: well you need to get the results back on :wq
2015-03-14T00:19:18Z pjb: emacs detects when files have been modified under it, and you can always do M-x revert-buffer.
2015-03-14T00:19:27Z pjb: Of course, you may write commands to wrap this all.
2015-03-14T00:20:08Z Shinmera: C-x C-v RET works for reloading too.
2015-03-14T00:20:29Z jasom: I want to automate that when a subprocess exits...
2015-03-14T00:20:40Z jasom: And preferrably make the buffer read-only in the mean-time.
2015-03-14T00:20:51Z jasom: alternatively I could copy it to a tempfile
2015-03-14T00:22:15Z Shinmera moves himself to bed now. Good night, #lisp!
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2015-03-14T00:24:20Z pjb: You can use C-x h M-| ( cat > /tmp/temp.lisp ; vi /tmp/temp.lisp ; cat /tmp/temp.lisp ) RET
2015-03-14T00:24:28Z jasom: The tempfile is probably better, as it would allow editing remote buffers
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2015-03-14T00:27:08Z jasom: pjb: that puts the output in its own buffer; close though.  Anyway... dinner!
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2015-03-14T00:57:52Z csziacobus: how do i get sbcl to annotate disassembly output? i have *disassemble-annotate*.
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2015-03-14T01:36:55Z vr-rm: Anyone have familiarity with iolib?  I'm trying to call create-process and getting back an error saying the alien function lfp_get_environ is undefine.  I have the Debian package libfixposix-dev installed.  There must be something else I'm missing.
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2015-03-14T01:46:51Z fe[nl]ix: vr-rm: the Debian version of libfixposix is very old.
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2015-03-14T01:48:20Z vr-rm: Ah. google tells me that was a recently added function to libfixposix, so it makes sense.
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2015-03-14T01:51:59Z BRFPocock: does nm agree?
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2015-03-14T01:53:39Z fe[nl]ix: vr-rm: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.iolib.devel/422
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2015-03-14T01:59:10Z burtons: i think there's either a problem with iolib or the cffi when using it with sbcl version > 1.7
2015-03-14T01:59:38Z burtons: the mezzano network file server crashes with sbcl v > 1.7, and it's using iolib
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2015-03-14T02:01:25Z burtons: i havne't had time to track down the exact change that breaks it though
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2015-03-14T02:07:42Z vr-rm: I've always regretted adding custom apt packages, especially of libraries.  But, I compiled a local version of fixposix (from git) and then loaded it with cffi:load-foreign-library.  shockingly that was enough to get create-process to work.
2015-03-14T02:10:09Z want-secrets: mezzano?
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2015-03-14T02:31:21Z burtons: want-secrets: it's a common lisp operating system
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2015-03-14T02:44:06Z want-secrets: does it work?
2015-03-14T02:44:16Z want-secrets: I dont see and ISO on the page
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2015-03-14T03:22:32Z burtons: want-secrets: somewhat, it's in the early stages
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2015-03-14T03:37:13Z burtons: want-secrets: you have to build it yourself i think
2015-03-14T03:37:36Z burtons: want-secrets: here's a vbox disk image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46753018/Mezzanine%20Demo%201-disk1.vmdk.gz
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2015-03-14T03:44:49Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.symbolics-dks.com/index.htm
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2015-03-14T03:45:33Z JuanDaugherty: what are they about in as few as possible words, or ideally currency denominated numbers
2015-03-14T03:46:20Z burtons: lisp machines?
2015-03-14T03:46:23Z JuanDaugherty: if the alpha emulator were really good, live a xen or vmware thing ... .
2015-03-14T03:46:38Z JuanDaugherty: *like a
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2015-03-14T03:47:43Z burtons: there's a linux version that you can try and get working called snap4
2015-03-14T03:48:15Z burtons: you can try this and see if you can get it working: https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera
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2015-03-14T03:49:44Z burtons: and i think the emulator is in the $5000 range
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2015-03-14T03:50:38Z JuanDaugherty: why would I not follow the cliki page directions?
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2015-03-14T03:51:20Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux
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2015-03-14T03:52:39Z scottj: JuanDaugherty: because the repo above automates all that for you, I believe
2015-03-14T03:53:04Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2015-03-14T03:54:22Z JuanDaugherty: anyway this is new and another day would be even more exciting
2015-03-14T03:55:11Z JuanDaugherty: *and on another
2015-03-14T03:55:23Z JuanDaugherty: je suis fatigue
2015-03-14T03:55:31Z burtons: genera is pretty cool, but so mezzano
2015-03-14T03:55:46Z burtons: but obviously genera is a more complete system, for now
2015-03-14T03:55:59Z JuanDaugherty meant the vlm cliki page
2015-03-14T03:56:48Z Guest74275: mezzano came totally out of nowhere
2015-03-14T03:57:01Z burtons: i'm using it right now
2015-03-14T03:57:09Z JuanDaugherty: compared to genera
2015-03-14T03:57:12Z burtons: been practially living in it for the past couple of weeks
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2015-03-14T03:57:24Z Guest74275: you managed to route tcp/ip properly? is it on vbox on linux by any chance?
2015-03-14T03:57:27Z Guest74275: burtons: nice
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2015-03-14T03:57:57Z burtons: are you asking me about the tcpip?
2015-03-14T03:58:05Z burtons: yes, i have, using kvm
2015-03-14T03:58:10Z Guest74275: burtons: sorry, yes you got networking working on it?
2015-03-14T03:58:17Z burtons: yes
2015-03-14T03:58:25Z Guest74275: oh, using kvm.  hmmm.
2015-03-14T03:58:28Z Guest74275: maybe i'll try that
2015-03-14T03:58:36Z burtons: i also have with vbox as well
2015-03-14T03:58:46Z burtons: just make sure you are using the virtio driver
2015-03-14T03:58:50Z Guest74275: i have not managed to do it on vbox with the instructions for some reason
2015-03-14T03:58:58Z Guest74275: vritio just gives me an unroutable address
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2015-03-14T03:59:03Z burtons: odd
2015-03-14T03:59:07Z burtons: i've had no problems with it
2015-03-14T03:59:17Z Guest74275: it must be my vbox i think
2015-03-14T03:59:59Z Guest74275: burtons: in what sense is it an 'os'.  does it have anything like a kernel?  i did not have much of a chance to really tool about in it.
2015-03-14T04:00:17Z burtons: it's common lisp running on the metal
2015-03-14T04:00:27Z burtons: it's got a kernel called the supervisor
2015-03-14T04:00:39Z burtons: handling threading and paging and all the hardware stuff
2015-03-14T04:00:47Z Guest74275: is that in any sense comparable to the linux kernel?
2015-03-14T04:00:57Z burtons: somewhat
2015-03-14T04:00:58Z burtons: yes
2015-03-14T04:01:18Z burtons: but it's designed to run common lisp
2015-03-14T04:01:45Z burtons: i'm pretty sure it's single address space
2015-03-14T04:01:55Z burtons: like the old lisp machines
2015-03-14T04:02:02Z Guest74275: neat.  i read his post and he was very apologetic about the work and the small scope of his design
2015-03-14T04:02:23Z Guest74275: would be interesting to really explore that more.
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2015-03-14T04:02:52Z burtons: i've been working with him a bit, when he's online
2015-03-14T04:03:18Z burtons: i like the design, it's simple...or as simple as it can be
2015-03-14T04:03:25Z burtons: i'm impressed
2015-03-14T04:03:33Z Guest74275: i think everyone is
2015-03-14T04:03:38Z burtons: i've been working on the editor, trying to give it some more features
2015-03-14T04:03:46Z Guest74275: oh REALLY?
2015-03-14T04:03:50Z Guest74275: okay that is fucking cool
2015-03-14T04:03:54Z burtons: https://github.com/burtonsamograd/med
2015-03-14T04:04:04Z Guest74275: you know, finally we have a reason to implement emacs in common lisp
2015-03-14T04:04:05Z Guest74275: :)
2015-03-14T04:04:15Z burtons: yes, that's why i'm working on it :)
2015-03-14T04:04:16Z Guest74275: no one can say 'oh but, so many extensions for emacs' and such
2015-03-14T04:04:18Z Guest74275: heh
2015-03-14T04:04:20Z burtons: for now it's my own emacs
2015-03-14T04:04:23Z Guest74275: dude, let me see
2015-03-14T04:04:26Z akkad: ORDB
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2015-03-14T04:04:38Z burtons: i think me and harry are the only people that actualy use mezzano
2015-03-14T04:04:49Z Guest74275: burtons: how does one traverse the file system?  is there a file system?
2015-03-14T04:04:56Z akkad: burtons: :P
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2015-03-14T04:05:07Z akkad: mezzano growing much?
2015-03-14T04:05:10Z burtons: there's a simple file system viewer that shows the remote and local file system
2015-03-14T04:05:18Z burtons: the local file system is really just some ram
2015-03-14T04:05:30Z burtons: that's why the remote file server is important
2015-03-14T04:05:40Z Guest74275: aha
2015-03-14T04:05:45Z Guest74275: let me see if i got my vm here
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2015-03-14T04:05:51Z burtons: so there's no real disk file system other than a demand pager for loading the world images
2015-03-14T04:06:05Z Guest74275: don't care really
2015-03-14T04:06:24Z Guest74275: the amount of possibilities for something like mezzano, especially what we have learned from genera and plan 9
2015-03-14T04:06:34Z Guest74275: the mind boggles
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2015-03-14T04:07:57Z JuanDaugherty: i guess the text on that page at cliki is a lot older than its history suggests
2015-03-14T04:08:00Z Guest74275: oh there it is.  okay so, how do i switch from local to world?
2015-03-14T04:08:06Z Guest74275: remote even
2015-03-14T04:08:11Z JuanDaugherty: so maybe not new
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2015-03-14T04:12:16Z burtons: Guest74275: you mean to view files?
2015-03-14T04:12:35Z burtons: run the fs viewer
2015-03-14T04:12:42Z Guest74275: yup
2015-03-14T04:12:48Z burtons: and there's a couple of buttons at the top, one for local one for remote
2015-03-14T04:14:01Z Guest74275: i only see local button.  okay, maybe i have an earlier version of the vm.  will download another later.
2015-03-14T04:14:11Z Guest74275: at least i know what i am supposed to be looking for.  thanks.
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2015-03-14T04:14:37Z burtons: this is the current version: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46753018/Mezzanine%20Demo%201-disk1.vmdk.gz
2015-03-14T04:14:56Z JuanDaugherty: so Joshua ES was named after Lederberg?
2015-03-14T04:15:19Z JuanDaugherty: is it in the common genera image?
2015-03-14T04:16:02Z Guest74275: thanks burtons
2015-03-14T04:16:24Z burtons: np
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2015-03-14T04:17:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-14T04:18:04Z burtons: morning beach
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2015-03-14T04:19:06Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2015-03-14T04:19:28Z burtons: what should happen when i (let (*standard-output*) (format t "testing"))?
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2015-03-14T04:19:41Z burtons: should it print nothing? or give an error?
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2015-03-14T04:22:12Z beach: I would say signal an error.
2015-03-14T04:22:37Z burtons: hmm, i thought something like that would be standard
2015-03-14T04:22:40Z burtons: to stop output
2015-03-14T04:22:52Z beach: clhs *standard-output*
2015-03-14T04:22:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm
2015-03-14T04:23:12Z beach: The value is an output stream.
2015-03-14T04:23:28Z beach: NIL is not an output stream.
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2015-03-14T04:24:06Z burtons: ok
2015-03-14T04:24:12Z burtons: too bad
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2015-03-14T04:24:23Z burtons goes off to write a null-stream
2015-03-14T04:24:40Z beach: What made you expect binding it to NIL would be standard to stop output?
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2015-03-14T04:25:43Z burtons: i thought i saw it somewhere before
2015-03-14T04:31:07Z Xach: burtons: an empty broadcast stream is a common thing, via (make-broadcast-stream)
2015-03-14T04:31:39Z burtons: thanks
2015-03-14T04:31:54Z burtons: i just cobbled together a null stream for testing
2015-03-14T04:32:07Z burtons: i'll see if a broadcast stream works as well
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2015-03-14T04:33:05Z burtons: I'm trying to profile the mezzano compiler and i'm I think i'm finding the output dominates the compile time
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2015-03-14T04:34:24Z beach: Silent compilers was a great invention by Multics, then copied by Unix.
2015-03-14T04:37:47Z Guest74275: i was just musing about paravirtualizing the linux kernel in mezzano to get passthrough access to the video card
2015-03-14T04:37:49Z Guest74275: heh
2015-03-14T04:37:58Z Guest74275: imagine something crazy like that
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2015-03-14T04:41:01Z burtons: i now have a silent compiler command for mezzano
2015-03-14T04:41:15Z burtons: hopefully that speeds up my builds a bit
2015-03-14T04:42:23Z burtons: not much, still slow as mollasses :-/
2015-03-14T04:43:21Z burtons: but now it's the gc
2015-03-14T04:47:43Z cluck: burtons: wouldn't it be better to port mclim, instead of writing yet another editor from scratch, and get climacs and the closure web browser almost for free? (among other clim goodies)
2015-03-14T04:49:29Z cluck: burtons: the vacietis c compiler also comes to mind in the list of things that would be neat to have in mezzano
2015-03-14T04:52:45Z beach: cluck: This is probably one of those cases where you will get the answer "sounds good, let me know when you have implemented it"
2015-03-14T04:53:01Z cluck: Guest74275: plenty of people have had that idea before, genode came up with DDE kit, and the equivalent abusing netbsd is rumpkernels
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2015-03-14T04:54:05Z Guest74275: cluck: neat, i had no clue
2015-03-14T04:54:20Z beach: That's the answer I got after RMS announced GNU Emacs in 1984, and I told him Emacs Lisp was a mistake; he should have written a general-purpose Lisp system first, and then implemented Emacs in that system.
2015-03-14T04:54:48Z Guest74275: beach: ha! neat
2015-03-14T04:54:48Z cluck: beach: yeah, i know.. (i fully own up to my lazyness though, would fall asleep forever halfway into it)
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2015-03-14T04:58:49Z Guest74275: beach: that would have been an amazing world
2015-03-14T04:59:50Z beach: Guest74275: Maybe so.  Hard to know for sure.
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2015-03-14T05:00:31Z cluck: beach: iirc my history he went with elisp because of the goslinmacs codebase (so you can blame mocklisp), also no CL IP so no lawsuits (he'd been in the crossfire between symbolics and lmi)
2015-03-14T05:02:38Z beach: cluck: Could be.  I don't know the details.  Gosling Emacs was not the first one written in Lisp though.  Multics Emacs was.  A great editor and a great Lisp system for the time.
2015-03-14T05:02:39Z Guest74275: yeah.  if he did that, we may not have ended up with a common lisp spec
2015-03-14T05:03:35Z Guest74275: common lisp history reading paints it as a miraculous thing that happened only by luck.  one thing out of order and it may have never happened.
2015-03-14T05:04:05Z burtons: cluck: the idea of porting mcclim did cross my mind
2015-03-14T05:04:34Z burtons: cluck: the gui layer on mezzano was just something henry threw together for his demo release
2015-03-14T05:04:57Z burtons: but there's still lots of bugs to be fixed and work to be done before that
2015-03-14T05:05:10Z burtons: and there's already an emacs like editor that he wrote for it in about 1000 lines of code
2015-03-14T05:05:20Z burtons: i'm just taking it and enhancing it since it was already there
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2015-03-14T05:15:36Z Guest74275: back. burtons i get a black screen of the vm. i am supposed to select linux / other linux for the vm?
2015-03-14T05:17:02Z cluck: burtons: yes, i noticed (and thanks for your good work)
2015-03-14T05:18:12Z burtons: Guest74275: i use other/unknown i think
2015-03-14T05:18:14Z cluck: burtons: don't mind me, i sometimes just think out loud like an idiot, it wasn't criticism
2015-03-14T05:18:19Z burtons: 64 bit
2015-03-14T05:18:27Z burtons: cluck: no worries :)
2015-03-14T05:19:48Z burtons: i'm just finally having some fun programming again
2015-03-14T05:19:59Z burtons: on something not work related
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2015-03-14T05:21:23Z burtons: re: porting mcclim, i tried mcclim once and found it didn't work so well, or at least even the demos had bugs that i couldn't figure out how to get around
2015-03-14T05:21:56Z beach: burtons: McCLIM has a number of issues.
2015-03-14T05:22:04Z Guest74275: i couldn't either
2015-03-14T05:22:06Z beach: burtons: I hope to get time to fix them.
2015-03-14T05:22:14Z beach: But the demos do work out of the box.
2015-03-14T05:22:28Z beach: And I have no problems using it for my own GUI stuff.
2015-03-14T05:23:14Z Guest74275: is this the offical git repo for mcclim: https://github.com/slyrus/mcclim
2015-03-14T05:23:20Z beach: No
2015-03-14T05:23:49Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM
2015-03-14T05:24:03Z Guest74275: ah! sweet.
2015-03-14T05:24:26Z beach: Please report problems as you find them.
2015-03-14T05:24:47Z Guest74275: i was looking for the repo, i am curious where the bitmaps are stored
2015-03-14T05:24:59Z Guest74275: i would like to fiddle with the looks of it
2015-03-14T05:26:10Z beach: You will probably find them as fast as I will if you look.
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2015-03-14T05:27:02Z Guest74275: heh good enough :)
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2015-03-14T07:32:05Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|Drakma 1.3.14, Hunchentoot 1.2.31, SBCL 1.2.7
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2015-03-14T08:03:48Z hitecnologys: Is cl-store supposed to work with instances of classes with non-standard metaobjects? I can't make it restore instance of class with STMX's transactional-class as metaclass. All it does is complains that class slot in unbound but it was bound when I serialized the class. Can I do something about it?
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2015-03-14T08:04:40Z hitecnologys: s/serialized the class/serialized the instance/
2015-03-14T08:06:34Z hitecnologys: Or would it be easier just to transform all the data to something as simple as a list before a serialization and then transform back after restoring, for example?
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2015-03-14T09:33:17Z beach: From the CLISP documentation: "As a consequence, the compiler is fairly small (and would have been easily maintainable if it were written in a less kludgey way..."
2015-03-14T09:33:40Z beach: It would be an interesting exercise to substitute a Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP.
2015-03-14T09:34:29Z beach: Given how far drmeister has been able to progress with Cleavir, I think it would be relatively easy to write a CLISP bytecode backend for Cleavir.
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2015-03-14T09:41:01Z |3b|`: beach: and then something to convert CLISP bytecode into one of your IRs so you can optimize it and compile to native?
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2015-03-14T09:41:54Z beach: I hadn't thought about that.
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2015-03-14T09:42:07Z beach: What would be the point?
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2015-03-14T09:43:09Z |3b|: probably not much
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2015-03-14T09:46:33Z beach: If native code were the goal, it would be better to short-circuit the CLISP bytecodes.
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2015-03-14T10:02:57Z beach: There might be bootstrapping problems with my idea though.
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2015-03-14T11:00:04Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2015-03-14T11:01:41Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-03-14T11:25:52Z beach: So the schtick with ECL is that it can be used from (say) C, right?  And that's why many of the Common Lisp functions of ECL are written in C, right again?  But wouldn't it be possible to write them in Common Lisp and compile them to C or native code, and make them available from C that way?
2015-03-14T11:26:33Z Shinmera: I thought it was because of bootstrapping reasons.
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2015-03-14T11:26:51Z Shinmera: So that you can compile ECL just using a C compiler.
2015-03-14T11:27:08Z beach: You might be right.  I am just guessing.
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2015-03-14T11:27:29Z Shinmera: Drmeister had to write loads in C++ for the same reason.
2015-03-14T11:28:22Z beach: Well he did.  Whether he HAD TO, I am not (yet) convinced.
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2015-03-14T11:30:46Z beach: I guess it all depends on the rules you make.  Let's say that you can only use a C++ compiler.  But are you then allowed to include bytecode files as source?
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2015-03-14T11:35:41Z Shinmera: In the case of Clasp+Cleavir I'd hope that drmeister is going to distribute a binary to incrementally compile with rather than requiring everyone to first go through three or so hours of building "base" clasp.
2015-03-14T11:36:40Z beach: Is it the C++ compiler that takes time, or compiling the Common Lisp with the Clasp compiler?
2015-03-14T11:37:01Z Shinmera: The latter takes the most time.
2015-03-14T11:37:43Z Shinmera: The former just takes 16Gb of ram.
2015-03-14T11:37:49Z beach: Then, things will improve as the overall performance of the system improves.
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2015-03-14T11:43:58Z haom: as I understood, the selling point of ecl is that it can be embedded in c programs.
2015-03-14T11:44:12Z haom: like countless schemes (like guile) are doing.
2015-03-14T11:44:32Z haom: to serve as scripting languages.
2015-03-14T11:45:54Z haom: there have been requests to make sbcl a shared library for years, and the goal of ecl has been exactly that.
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2015-03-14T13:17:13Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146234#3
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2015-03-14T13:23:27Z beach: oleo: I would very much appreciate if you don't give us URLs without saying what it is about.  For instance, if it has to do with FFI or Web programming or relational databases, I am not interested in looking, so I won't click on it.
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2015-03-14T13:24:08Z oleo: beach: i was trying to extract the (:exports #:blah.....) stuff from my file yesterday....
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2015-03-14T13:24:31Z beach: and?
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2015-03-14T13:24:45Z oleo: well the problem is i'm not good with cl-ppcre.....
2015-03-14T13:24:48Z Shinmera: No
2015-03-14T13:24:59Z Shinmera: The problem is that regular expressions cannot capture a context-free grammar.
2015-03-14T13:25:04Z Shinmera: Which is what s-exprs are.
2015-03-14T13:25:12Z oleo: wth
2015-03-14T13:25:27Z oleo: read-line returns string representations....
2015-03-14T13:25:42Z oleo: why s-exprs where ?
2015-03-14T13:26:08Z oleo: even gigamonkeys books tells it....
2015-03-14T13:26:25Z oleo: well, not sure what you mean, maybe i misunderstand you
2015-03-14T13:26:48Z |3b|: oleo: you can't correctly parse CL code with regexps
2015-03-14T13:26:55Z oleo: ah
2015-03-14T13:27:08Z oleo: so most of the time it is a hack ?
2015-03-14T13:27:33Z |3b|: particularly after chopping it up into lines, for example that line you got from read-line might have been part of a comment
2015-03-14T13:27:57Z |3b|: if by 'it' you mean "trying to parse Cl code with regexps" then yes
2015-03-14T13:28:05Z oleo: ok
2015-03-14T13:28:11Z |3b|: if you mean using regexps in general, that depends on what you are trying to parse
2015-03-14T13:28:48Z |3b|: (though i wouldn't be surprised if most uses aren't parsing things that can be parsed correctly by regexps)
2015-03-14T13:29:16Z oleo: seems i was using the wrong regexps yesterday.....
2015-03-14T13:29:26Z oleo: tho it works on regex101.com's page....
2015-03-14T13:29:45Z oleo: when i split it up the (:export is on it's own line.....
2015-03-14T13:29:59Z oleo: i mean it's that way in my file
2015-03-14T13:30:32Z |3b|: if you want a general tool, you should probably use a proper cl reader, if it is just for a file or 2, probably would be quicker to just use an editor
2015-03-14T13:30:35Z oleo: scan-to-strings is another problem it sometimes behaves as if multiline and sometimes not....
2015-03-14T13:31:29Z oleo: maybe i'm too inexperienced with regexps, that too....
2015-03-14T13:33:44Z oleo: and i'm not trying to parse cl-code as a whole per-se..... just parts of it which are already supposed to be in string representation....
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2015-03-14T13:34:16Z ehu: oleo: what's the problem just using READ and finding the exports clause in defpackage?
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2015-03-14T13:35:08Z oleo: and then what ?
2015-03-14T13:35:21Z ehu: then you can find the exported symbols.
2015-03-14T13:35:26Z ehu: isn't that what you want?
2015-03-14T13:35:47Z oleo: yes, but can you show an example ?
2015-03-14T13:35:59Z oleo: i'm not that good with parsing.....
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2015-03-14T13:36:43Z Shinmera: ehu: READ can cause interning and can choke on reader macros etc.
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2015-03-14T13:37:38Z beach: oleo: What ehu meant was something like: (cdr (find :export (read) :key #'car)) or something like that.
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2015-03-14T13:37:58Z oleo: ok
2015-03-14T13:38:13Z ehu: right. the lisp parser is built into lisp
2015-03-14T13:38:28Z ehu: except for Shinmera's remark, that's probably your best option.
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2015-03-14T13:39:03Z guicho: (block nil (with-open-file (s file) (loop (let ((read (read s))) (when (eq 'cl:defpackage (car read)) (return (find :export (cddr read))).... )
2015-03-14T13:39:38Z ehu: guicho: thanks!
2015-03-14T13:39:57Z Shinmera: I said this yesterday already, but fine, here it goes again: Use a string matcher until you read a defpackage form, then scan for the export, and only /then/ use read. But even that will easily screw you over.
2015-03-14T13:40:03Z guicho: I just wrote it in my mind, so debug yourself.
2015-03-14T13:41:04Z Shinmera: pjb also showed several examples using his existing s-expr parsers that make the task trivial
2015-03-14T13:41:19Z guicho: use a string matcher << because of interning?
2015-03-14T13:41:24Z Shinmera: But I guess everything fell on deaf ears
2015-03-14T13:41:28Z Shinmera: guicho: and other things.
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2015-03-14T13:41:46Z Xach: When the input is trusted, reading is much easier.
2015-03-14T13:41:48Z Shinmera: the reader is not the right tool to use if you want to extract information from s-expr files. It is the tool to use if you want to run code.
2015-03-14T13:41:55Z Xach: I disagree.
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2015-03-14T13:41:57Z ehu: Shinmera: that's only a problem if you want to read each and every system in the world. if you have a limited set of a few hundred, it should be possible to work with a non-perfect (but working) intermediate solution
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2015-03-14T13:42:21Z ehu agrees with Xach to disagree
2015-03-14T13:42:23Z Xach: READ is a great option in limited circumstances.
2015-03-14T13:42:29Z Xach: READ is not a panacea
2015-03-14T13:42:59Z ehu: and assumed-active reader macros will *always* trip you over.
2015-03-14T13:43:16Z ehu: what should the parser make of ([sql expression here])?
2015-03-14T13:43:27Z ehu: --> ((SQL EXPRESSION HERE)) ?
2015-03-14T13:43:35Z ehu: how will it know?
2015-03-14T13:43:40Z Shinmera: It doesn't need to make anything since it only needs to know about defpackage and export forms for this case.
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2015-03-14T13:44:20Z ehu: true. my argument is simply that *every* approach has its drawbacks.
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2015-03-14T13:48:25Z |3b| writes a reader macro to generate exports just to make the problem harder
2015-03-14T13:48:54Z Shinmera: |3b|: It already exists in the form of the annotation lib.
2015-03-14T13:49:17Z Shinmera: And there's projects that actually use it too.
2015-03-14T13:49:39Z Xach: I wish there was a more regular way to treat a living system as a database
2015-03-14T13:49:46Z Xach: Right now everything you want to query is pretty ad hoc
2015-03-14T13:50:50Z Xach: e.g. a similar syntax to find all function names that end with "p" or "-p" and that take two arguments
2015-03-14T13:51:12Z Xach: and to find external symbols that are not called
2015-03-14T13:51:16Z Xach: and other stuff
2015-03-14T13:51:26Z beach: oleo: So, now the traditional question: What is it that you want to do.  I mean, I understand that you want to extract the exports, but from what kind of code and for what purpose?
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2015-03-14T13:53:18Z oleo: well, it's just a file where i have defined a package with some functions in it, i wanted to extract the function names, and to put them back into the exports list when i add new functions to it, i don't want to write the export list myself so to say....
2015-03-14T13:53:50Z oleo: and i'm not done with the task yet...
2015-03-14T13:53:52Z Shinmera: Oh lorde, it's the classic problem again.
2015-03-14T13:55:55Z guicho: ad-hoc of the best: slime-package-fu
2015-03-14T13:56:05Z guicho: best of ad-hoc?
2015-03-14T13:56:09Z guicho: or worst
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2015-03-14T13:59:51Z guicho: it may satisfy his purpose, but the problem of "regular way to treat a living system as a database" still remains.
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2015-03-14T14:04:14Z guicho: I remember Xach wrote on reddit about "search system for quicklisp", how is it going?
2015-03-14T14:04:28Z Xach: guicho: slowly but surely
2015-03-14T14:05:15Z beach: Will we hear about it in London?
2015-03-14T14:05:28Z Xach: I hope before then
2015-03-14T14:05:36Z Shinmera: Nice
2015-03-14T14:06:01Z guicho: sounds good
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2015-03-14T14:07:56Z Xach has run into pain scraping and converting data
2015-03-14T14:08:30Z Xach: I did update 6 or so of my own libraries that were sadly missing full asdf metadata
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2015-03-14T15:24:25Z emaczen: Is there anything like edebug defun for slime? I'm using (break) and (step) but I am looking for more of a visual stepper
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2015-03-14T15:40:08Z guicho: don't your (step) highlight the stepper point in yellow (only for a moment, though?)
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2015-03-14T15:44:32Z emaczen: guicho: I'm executing "(step '(function arguments)" in the REPL and SLDB comes up in an emacs buffer and I select the option to step-into but it just starts running and doesn't give me the option to evaluate the first form inside the function that I decided to step into.
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2015-03-14T15:47:42Z guicho: compile the function with C-u C-c C-c, which assures that the function is compiled under (degub 3).
2015-03-14T15:48:07Z guicho: it may be successful
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2015-03-14T15:50:58Z emaczen: guicho: Thanks! I didn't know you had to compile it with (debug 3)
2015-03-14T15:51:47Z guicho: that should go to another redditter who told me about that :)
2015-03-14T15:52:14Z guicho: did it work?
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2015-03-14T15:52:33Z emaczen: guicho: I have 3 emacs windows open, do you know how to keep sldb opening in the same buffer/window?
2015-03-14T15:52:53Z guicho: I also want to know that.
2015-03-14T15:53:45Z emaczen: guicho: Yes! It is continuing to open up the debugger on more forms
2015-03-14T15:54:02Z guicho: I guess you mean "windows" are the split part of emacs screen. What happens if you C-x 5 2 and open the debugger in that frame
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2015-03-14T15:59:29Z emaczen: guicho: I did see the point move to the form being executed.
2015-03-14T15:59:39Z emaczen: I guess, I'll have to keep playing with it and see what I can do
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2015-03-14T18:08:31Z pjb: oleo: Try your regexp on: (defpackage "P" (:use "CL") (:shadow . #1=("IF" "LAMBDA" "CONS" "CAR" "CDR")) (:export . #1#))
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2015-03-14T18:21:07Z oleo: pjb: got it already http://paste.lisp.org/display/146234#4
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2015-03-14T18:25:20Z oleo: i was trying to use equal on the sharp-colon stuff formerly and was failing, lol, sharp-colon is uninterned....
2015-03-14T18:26:41Z oleo: like in (equal '(a b) '(a b)) -> t, (equal '(#:foo #:bar) '(#:foo #:bar)) -> nil
2015-03-14T18:28:00Z oleo: besides when i use read it fails at package prefixed stuff like package:blah when the package is not loaded beforehand in the listener.....
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2015-03-14T18:29:56Z oleo: s/uninterned/not interning/
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2015-03-14T18:31:38Z pjb: oleo: you should read clhs.
2015-03-14T18:31:46Z oleo: i did
2015-03-14T18:32:00Z pjb: oleo: the items in :export (and elsewhere in defpackage), are STRING DESIGNATORS.  Therefore you should compare them with STRING=
2015-03-14T18:32:34Z oleo: is #:blah a string designator ?
2015-03-14T18:32:37Z pjb: yes.
2015-03-14T18:32:57Z pjb: again, read clhs, it defines perfectly what a string designator is.
2015-03-14T18:33:05Z oleo: ok
2015-03-14T18:33:25Z pjb: It's a treasure trove.
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2015-03-14T18:36:05Z oleo: jep
2015-03-14T18:36:11Z oleo: awesome :)
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2015-03-14T18:49:45Z jackdaniel: beach: around?
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2015-03-14T19:23:23Z Shinmera: clintm: dim: I think I could take on maintaining cl-sqlite. Though it seems someone else already offered to do it. https://github.com/dmitryvk/cl-sqlite/issues/7
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2015-03-14T21:04:14Z dim: Shinmera: awesome, thanks!
2015-03-14T21:04:26Z Shinmera: Well, I don't know if I'm gonna be designated maintainer yet, so
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2015-03-14T21:33:25Z ben_vulpes: should i be using (ql:quickload) at the top of my lisp files in order to ensure that the systems to which i want a given package to have access are loaded at repl boot/compile?
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2015-03-14T21:36:01Z Shinmera: No
2015-03-14T21:36:21Z Shinmera: Have a look at https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/267
2015-03-14T21:38:22Z ben_vulpes: thanks, Shinmera
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2015-03-14T23:16:44Z ben_vulpes: would gensym be the right approach to creating namespaced databases during test setup/teardown?
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2015-03-14T23:55:45Z Adlai: ben_vulpes: only if they're named by symbols. these will be unique within your lisp image, but if your database names exist as strings on a disk somewhere, gensym won't guarantee global uniqueness
2015-03-14T23:56:03Z Adlai: you might even get certain collisions, if your gensym counter loops
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