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Can I send a command to the repl without going to the *slime-repl...* buffer? 2015-03-10T00:58:22Z CharellK` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T00:58:27Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T00:58:45Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T00:59:01Z pillton: warweasle: Does C-c C-j do what you want? 2015-03-10T00:59:13Z aeth quit (Quit: ...) 2015-03-10T00:59:27Z arnaudga left #lisp 2015-03-10T01:00:01Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T01:00:06Z CharellKing quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T01:00:15Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:00:51Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:01:09Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:02:24Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:02:38Z warweasle: pillton: Close. I would prefer not to jump into the other buffer. 2015-03-10T01:02:42Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:02:43Z warweasle: pillton: But yes. 2015-03-10T01:02:50Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T01:03:03Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:03:07Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:03:50Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:03:54Z warweasle: But I can make my own with slime-eval-last-expression-in-repl, now that I know about it. 2015-03-10T01:04:00Z warweasle: Thank you. 2015-03-10T01:04:04Z pillton: I see. Then I don't know. It should provide a good place to start your own. 2015-03-10T01:04:08Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:04:14Z pillton: Oh.. What you said. 2015-03-10T01:04:20Z pillton: No problem. 2015-03-10T01:04:45Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:05:03Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:06:40Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:06:58Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:07:35Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:07:53Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:08:42Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:09:00Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:09:38Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:09:55Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:10:30Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:10:37Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:10:54Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:11:00Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:11:32Z SpikeMaster: what do you guys prefer? sbcl or clozure-cl? 2015-03-10T01:11:54Z pillton: I like both. 2015-03-10T01:12:26Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:12:29Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:12:47Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:13:22Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:13:40Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:14:31Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T01:15:11Z aeth joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:15:27Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:15:45Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:16:05Z alvin3 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:17:23Z karswell joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:17:35Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:17:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:17:53Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:18:16Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-03-10T01:18:45Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:19:20Z zRecursive: Anybody know windows BATCH ? As i canot get answer from #windows, i ask here: in `for /f "delims=" %i in (data.txt) do set OUTPUT=%OUTPUT%%i`, why doe OUTPUT only contain the last line ? In fact, i want to read all lines into a variable. 2015-03-10T01:19:25Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:19:43Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:19:51Z Bike: that is almost impressively offtopic 2015-03-10T01:20:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T01:20:53Z SpikeMaster: i don't know windows batch stuff :(. I had to write a batch script one time and even a simple if statement seemed to be filled with "gotchas". 2015-03-10T01:21:28Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:21:47Z Ranis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T01:22:05Z zRecursive: Bike: i know 2015-03-10T01:22:44Z Ranis joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:23:25Z zRecursive: SpikeMaster: the windows BATCH is really a foolish design compared with bash,etc. 2015-03-10T01:23:47Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:30:22Z AntiSpamMeta is now known as AntiSpamMeta` 2015-03-10T01:30:27Z AntiSpamMeta` is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2015-03-10T01:30:56Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:31:49Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-10T01:35:14Z CharellK` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-10T01:35:56Z johann quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T01:36:08Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:41:09Z zRecursive left #lisp 2015-03-10T01:42:28Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:47:27Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-03-10T01:48:13Z ruste_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T01:48:21Z ruste quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T01:52:50Z pjb: SpikeMaster: clisp works very well on MS-Windows. I use clisp to write all my scripts! 2015-03-10T01:55:25Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-03-10T01:56:24Z drmeister: Bike: : Would you be able to explain to me what is supposed to happen at compile-time if I compile: (defconstant +temp-i8+ (load-time-value (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty cmp:*llvm-context*) t)) 2015-03-10T01:56:32Z drmeister: Whoops - wasn't quite done. 2015-03-10T01:56:51Z drmeister: Oh well - might as well go with it. 2015-03-10T01:57:20Z drmeister: At compile-time what ends up in +temp-i8+ - it's the value of evaluating (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty ...) correct? 2015-03-10T01:57:33Z Bike: at compile time +temp-i8+ isn't necessarily given a value. 2015-03-10T01:58:10Z drmeister: But defconstant says that the compile time side effect is at least: (setf (symbol-value 'name) initial-value) 2015-03-10T01:58:29Z drmeister: And I'm guessing initial-value is the value of evaluating the l-t-v at compile time. 2015-03-10T01:58:34Z Bike: that's the side effect, not the compile-time side effect 2015-03-10T01:58:43Z Bike: "If a defconstant form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that name names a constant variable. An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both." 2015-03-10T01:58:47Z Bike: that's the only required compile-time effect. 2015-03-10T01:59:32Z drmeister: Where I'm going with this is how do I coalesce constants defined like this. 2015-03-10T02:00:22Z drmeister: And you pointed out a phrase that I have trouble understanding. 2015-03-10T02:00:35Z drmeister: I see now that "side effects" doesn't necessarily mean "compile time side effects". 2015-03-10T02:00:37Z Bike: so, what HAS to happen at compile time is that the compiler recognizes +temp-i8+ as a constant (so, for instance, if you have (let ((+temp-i8+ ...)) ...) later you get yelled at), and arranges for a possibly processed version of '(llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty cmp:*llvm-context*) to be evaluated at load time. 2015-03-10T02:00:42Z Bike: indeed it doesn't. 2015-03-10T02:01:41Z drmeister: So the implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time... 2015-03-10T02:01:48Z Bike: sure. 2015-03-10T02:01:55Z drmeister: So I could evaluate it at compile time and put its value into +temp-i8+ 2015-03-10T02:01:58Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:02:01Z Bike: and it runs into an l-t-v, so i guess it has to decide it has to leave it for later. 2015-03-10T02:02:23Z drmeister: Yes, I'll compile it into the code - that part I get. 2015-03-10T02:02:48Z drmeister: I compile it into the code and its value replaces the (l-t-v ...) in the code - that I get. 2015-03-10T02:03:13Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how to coalesce the l-t-v if I use (l-t-v ... t) 2015-03-10T02:03:27Z Bike: honestly? i don't know how that works. 2015-03-10T02:03:29Z drmeister: I can create a hash-table at compile-time 2015-03-10T02:03:30Z Bike: clhs says "If two lists (load-time-value form) that are the same under equal but are not identical are evaluated or compiled, their values always come from distinct evaluations of form. Their values may not be coalesced unless read-only-p is t. " 2015-03-10T02:03:38Z Bike: which... seems self-contradictory, maybe? 2015-03-10T02:03:52Z Bike: oh, no, i guess the first part is talking about only if read-only-p is nil. 2015-03-10T02:03:58Z warweasle quit (Quit: Rocksmith calls to me.) 2015-03-10T02:04:19Z fierydiarreha quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:04:34Z Bike: well, basically the compiler has to look at the foo in (l-t-v foo t) and get some idea of what it's going to do, and remember that if it sees (l-t-v bar t) and bar is gonna give the same thing as foo, to coalesce them. 2015-03-10T02:04:42Z Bike: note that you don't HAVE to coalesce them. 2015-03-10T02:04:44Z drmeister: I coalesce all other literal values. I didn't do anything with l-t-v because I couldn't figure out the semantics. 2015-03-10T02:05:47Z alvis` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T02:06:20Z Bike: hm, let me see if i can explain how i think of it. i have half an implementation of compile-file somewhere 2015-03-10T02:06:27Z fierydiarreha joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:06:38Z drmeister: Well, I'm getting complaints from Cleavir that: In codegen-literal add support to codegen the atom type INTEGER-TYPE - value: # 2015-03-10T02:07:17Z sdothum quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2015-03-10T02:07:30Z Bike: er, i don't think i have enough context to know what that means. 2015-03-10T02:07:59Z drmeister: I know what it means. It means I'm using a constant in my code and Cleavir has hoisted it to a load-time-value and wants me to represent it in the compiled file somehow. What I need to do is generate a load-time-value in the (defconstant +foo+ (load-time-value ... t)) and then coalesce it so that every use of +foo+ pulls up the same load-time-value. 2015-03-10T02:08:31Z Bike: ok, let me see if i can explain how i think of it working. 2015-03-10T02:09:46Z Bike: when compile-file sees load-time-value it replaces it with a function call, like (load-value n), where n is a unique id. it also puts a note in the fasl that n corresponds to the form (llvm-sys:...). then the loader sees that note, evaluates the form, and puts the result in a special array. then load-value can just be a function that grabs the nth element of the array. 2015-03-10T02:10:17Z drmeister: That is exactly how it works in Cleavir. 2015-03-10T02:10:25Z drmeister: Clasp - sorry, Clasp. 2015-03-10T02:10:30Z Bike: coalescing is then seeing an (l-t-v ... n) elsewhere and using the same id# for it. 2015-03-10T02:10:34Z Bike: (l-t-v ... t) rather 2015-03-10T02:11:22Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:11:27Z alvis` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:11:33Z Bike: i think basically you can't evaluate defconstant at compile-time here. 2015-03-10T02:11:41Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:12:00Z drmeister: So (defconstant +foo+ (load-time-value ... t)) should put what into +foo+? Guesses (1) The CONS (l-t-v ... t) (2) the result of evaluating (l-t-v ... t) (3) My phone number 2015-03-10T02:12:17Z drmeister: At compile time that is. 2015-03-10T02:13:01Z Bike: nothing, i'd say. skip the usual compile time constant stuff. 2015-03-10T02:13:05Z Bike: this might not be the best solution. 2015-03-10T02:13:46Z Bike: hm... 2015-03-10T02:13:51Z SpikeMaster left #lisp 2015-03-10T02:13:55Z drmeister: I guess it could put a random number for all I care - right? If I keep a hash-table and use that value as a key and the index into the l-t-v array then the compiler can substitute further references to +foo+ with the indexed reference into the l-t-v array. 2015-03-10T02:14:23Z drmeister: The only problem is my compile-time environment and the Clasp run-time environment are the same - so I don't want to clobber the run-time environment. 2015-03-10T02:14:41Z harish joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:15:40Z Bike: if i'm understanding right, sbcl does not do what i said. it just flat evaluates the l-t-v, so # ends up in +foo+ at compile time and it's inserted as a constant elsewhere. pretty much ignoring the l-t-v. 2015-03-10T02:16:02Z Bike: i think this is conforming, but obviously it makes the l-t-v pointless. 2015-03-10T02:16:26Z drmeister: But how does SBCL know how to represent an #? 2015-03-10T02:16:53Z Bike: well, because you define a make-load-form, hopefully. 2015-03-10T02:17:02Z drmeister: Within the FASL file? It can't know that without something like the make-load-form mechanism. 2015-03-10T02:17:14Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:17:27Z drmeister: SBCL doesn't deal with this stuff unless you use FFI. 2015-03-10T02:17:58Z Bike: ...what? you've totally lost me. 2015-03-10T02:18:02Z drmeister: Does it make sense to compile code in SBCL like (defconstant +foo+ (ffi-function-call ...)) - that's essentially what I'm doing. 2015-03-10T02:18:09Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:18:14Z Bike: Where you got the value doesn't really matter. 2015-03-10T02:18:37Z Bike: # is a lisp object, you can define make-load-form methods on it and stuff. 2015-03-10T02:18:49Z drmeister: What do you mean by a "lisp object"? 2015-03-10T02:18:50Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:19:05Z Bike: It's an object. It's not a magical C object, it's something lisp code can fuck with. 2015-03-10T02:19:15Z drmeister: Do you mean "is composed of lisp primitives and can by constructed by a sequence of lisp function calls"? 2015-03-10T02:19:18Z Bike: no. 2015-03-10T02:19:36Z Bike: maybe it would help if you told me in more detail what llvm-sys::integer-type is. some kind of class? 2015-03-10T02:19:44Z Bike: Can you specialize methods on it? 2015-03-10T02:19:55Z Bike: Doesn't have to be a standard-class. 2015-03-10T02:20:09Z drmeister: Because I think # is a magical C++ object. I don't think it's a lisp object - but I'm not sure what a "lisp object" is in this context. 2015-03-10T02:20:32Z drmeister: Yes, I can specialize methods on it. But I can't get access to it's internal structure. 2015-03-10T02:20:57Z loke joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:21:02Z Bike: i see, i see. 2015-03-10T02:21:15Z drmeister: Only through special functions can I access it's internals - I have no idea what's in there or how its organized. So the compiler can have no idea how to represent it in a fasl file and re-create one from a fasl file. 2015-03-10T02:21:26Z drmeister: Magical C object. 2015-03-10T02:22:06Z Bike: ok, then i think defconstant may not be a good idea. 2015-03-10T02:22:40Z Bike: here is one thing that comes to mind: (define-symbol-macro +temp-i8+ (load-time-value ... t)) 2015-03-10T02:23:01Z Bike: Then writing +temp-i8+ somewhere is just the same as having the l-t-v. Which hopefully your compiler knows how to coalesce, so you only get one object. 2015-03-10T02:23:10Z Bike: and the compiler doesn't have to evaluate it. 2015-03-10T02:24:03Z manuel__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:24:45Z Bike: (defconstant +foo+ (load-time-value (list 1 2))) does not work on sbcl, apparently because it evaluates it once at compile time and once at load time 2015-03-10T02:25:45Z Bike: i am thinking that defconstant to an l-t-v value is a bad thing to do. 2015-03-10T02:26:16Z drmeister: Ok, that would work - but I'm a little queasy about using macros. 2015-03-10T02:26:41Z drmeister: I mean I love macros - love them to death - but I try to use them judiciously. 2015-03-10T02:27:13Z Bike: in a contest between macros and make-load-form i'm rooting for the former. 2015-03-10T02:27:28Z drmeister: I starting to agree with you on the defconstant 2015-03-10T02:27:36Z Bike: in any case, the symbol macro behavior is basically what you described wanting to do, as far as i interpreted it. 2015-03-10T02:27:50Z drmeister: Sure. 2015-03-10T02:27:50Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-03-10T02:28:02Z Bike: You want it to be evaluated at load time, you want it to all be the same value evaluated at load time. evaluating it at compile-time is not required. 2015-03-10T02:28:07Z drmeister: There's another thing though. 2015-03-10T02:28:22Z drmeister: I'm using this to define LLVM types 2015-03-10T02:28:25Z drmeister: Check this out. 2015-03-10T02:29:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Ty6uAiSt 2015-03-10T02:30:03Z drmeister: This is how I define the various and sundry types that I need to work with T and pointers to T and pointers to pointers to T and pointers to an array of pointers to T and so on. 2015-03-10T02:30:09Z Bike: OK. 2015-03-10T02:30:36Z Bike: are you doing the same thing with these, or do you need them at compile time too? 2015-03-10T02:30:46Z drmeister: If I use symbol-macros - it's going to build a bunch of nested forms that will be evaluated every time I use them won't it? 2015-03-10T02:31:03Z drmeister: I don't need them at compile time at all. 2015-03-10T02:31:26Z cyphase joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:31:43Z Bike: they'll all be l-t-v forms, so if your compiler is clever enough (admittedly not a trivial "if") the actual llvm-sys calls will only be evaluated once. 2015-03-10T02:32:03Z Bike: i think. l-t-v in l-t-v is another weird thing, but i think that's how it goes. 2015-03-10T02:32:52Z drmeister: Right - so what I'm trying to figure out is the "compiler is clever enough" part - I'm trying to figure out how to coalesce. 2015-03-10T02:33:56Z Bike: i'm going to say that as a first approximation you do tree-equal on the forms. (i guess with circularity detection) 2015-03-10T02:35:03Z Bike: or... you just do equal, but after some processing of them, which pixed out load-time-values and literals and stuff, maybe. 2015-03-10T02:35:13Z Bike: picks* weird typo 2015-03-10T02:35:23Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:36:16Z kanru joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:38:06Z Bike: ideally i'd go with something like the compiler knowing that llvm-sys:whatever is a pure function, but i don't know if you have the infrastructure for that in place. 2015-03-10T02:39:25Z Bike: actually no, you don't need that, there's read-only-p. so the tree-equal thing oughta be sufficient. 2015-03-10T02:41:51Z drmeister: I dunno - I don't think I can use tree-equal. 2015-03-10T02:42:20Z drmeister: That would imply that I'm binding the (l-t-v ... t) form into the defconstant variable. 2015-03-10T02:42:48Z drmeister: My run time environment is the same as my compile-time environment. That would clobber those constants like +t*+ 2015-03-10T02:43:07Z Bike: i thought we were giving up on defconstant. 2015-03-10T02:43:09Z drmeister: The compiler would crash. 2015-03-10T02:43:28Z drmeister: Oh - right - we were talking about symbol-macro now. 2015-03-10T02:44:21Z drmeister: What's that going to do to my run-time environment? 2015-03-10T02:44:55Z drmeister: I don't think it will break it. 2015-03-10T02:45:31Z Bike: What will what do to your runtime? 2015-03-10T02:45:34Z drmeister: But I'm committing to using define-symbol-macro then. I can't use defconstant or defvar/parameter 2015-03-10T02:46:04Z Bike: you could use defparameter or defvar, they don't evaluate things at compile time 2015-03-10T02:46:10Z drmeister: I'm talking about compiling the Clasp Common Lisp source code here. The very code that makes up the compiler. 2015-03-10T02:47:01Z drmeister: If I had a compile-time effect of binding +t*+ to something other than the value (llvm-sys:type-get-pointer-to +t+) things will be bad. 2015-03-10T02:47:56Z drmeister: Oh right if I used defvar then the generated code would look up the symbol-value of +t*+ at run time. That's more the kind of behavior that I want. 2015-03-10T02:48:02Z drmeister: That's exactly the behavior I want. 2015-03-10T02:48:12Z Bike: might be easier than all this macro crap, also. 2015-03-10T02:48:14Z drmeister: I should be using defvar 2015-03-10T02:48:20Z drmeister: Duh! 2015-03-10T02:48:42Z drmeister: I thought "since these values won't change - they are constants so I should use DEFCONSTANT". 2015-03-10T02:48:47Z Bike: that's what i'm here for: to walk you through miles of obscure semantics you don't give a damn about and then giving an easy solution at the last second 2015-03-10T02:48:56Z drmeister: I even put '+' characters around them. 2015-03-10T02:49:09Z drmeister: Hurray! 2015-03-10T02:49:14Z drmeister: \o/ 2015-03-10T02:49:15Z Bike: honestly, i don't like putting constants in defvar either. but sometimes it makes sense. 2015-03-10T02:49:40Z drmeister: This is a place where it makes sense. 2015-03-10T02:49:58Z Bike: yeah. 2015-03-10T02:50:33Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-03-10T02:50:39Z drmeister: "constant" means something different from what I'm used to in Common Lisp - I haven't figured out exactly what. 2015-03-10T02:50:48Z drmeister: They feel more like a C #define macro. 2015-03-10T02:50:49Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:50:57Z drmeister: Maybe not 2015-03-10T02:51:32Z drmeister: But they seem to be more of something the compiler can reason with at compile time. 2015-03-10T02:51:34Z Bike: like #define if you also had a C evaluator in the preprocessor, since regular #define is just define-symbol-macro. 2015-03-10T02:51:44Z drmeister: Rather than a variable that you never change at runtime. 2015-03-10T02:51:56Z drmeister: Right. 2015-03-10T02:52:26Z housel quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5) 2015-03-10T02:52:48Z housel joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:53:11Z drmeister: Is it bad form to use (defvar +foo+ (something ...)) 2015-03-10T02:53:19Z drmeister: I should use earmuffs right? 2015-03-10T02:53:24Z drmeister: *foo* 2015-03-10T02:53:39Z Bike: yeah, probably. 2015-03-10T02:54:00Z drmeister: That's going to be a lot of searching and replacing (sigh). 2015-03-10T02:54:02Z johann joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:54:04Z ben_vulpes: is there some sort of sexpr comment form? 2015-03-10T02:54:20Z Bike: i suppose what you want is more like a lexical global. 2015-03-10T02:54:38Z Bike: ben_vulpes: #+(or)(form...) 2015-03-10T02:54:59Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:55:05Z ben_vulpes: ooh, neat. 2015-03-10T02:55:15Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T02:55:18Z ben_vulpes: i have no idea how it works, though :( 2015-03-10T02:55:24Z Bike: clhs #+ 2015-03-10T02:55:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 2015-03-10T02:55:27Z Bike: where (or) is false. 2015-03-10T02:55:31Z drmeister: ben_vulpes: Only you have to follow the normal rules of (form ...) 2015-03-10T02:56:02Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-03-10T02:56:48Z drmeister: It's really used as a way to comment out forms. 2015-03-10T02:58:55Z Denommus` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T02:59:29Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:00:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:02:44Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:02:49Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:04:36Z paroneay` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:05:08Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:05:10Z paroneay` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T03:08:08Z paroneayea quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:09:56Z alvis` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:23:38Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:23:38Z 2015-03-10T03:23:38Z names: ccl-logbot JokesOnYou77 ajtulloch bugrum nikki93 mj-0 linux_dream cpc26_ slyrus Denommus` Harag1 johann housel kanru cyphase loke harish JuanDaugherty fierydiarreha ruste_ echo-area zacts Ranis karswell alvin3 aeth AntiSpamMeta bcoburn` x1n4u burtons Ukari leo2007 dagnachewa jleija brian_o 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quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T03:27:09Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:27:34Z JokesOnYou77: so this isn't strictly Lisp, but I've been working in JavaScript for almost 2 years now and today was the first time I felt like I was working in a truly functional language. I wrote a function to take in variables, solve a system of linear equations and return a new function using the solutions to the equations. Felt good, made me wish it was Lisp :P 2015-03-10T03:28:37Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:30:08Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-10T03:31:29Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:32:12Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:32:49Z Zhivago: Well, javascript is procedural, much like CL. :) 2015-03-10T03:33:05Z Zhivago: But first class closures are nice. 2015-03-10T03:34:56Z Zhivago: Personally, I suspect that javascript is the closest that you'll get to a popular lispy language. And with sweetjs you have macros. 2015-03-10T03:38:29Z pocket joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:39:35Z JokesOnYou77: I do like ruby actually. It feels lispy. 2015-03-10T03:40:07Z JokesOnYou77: There's actually a pretty good article I found on why ruby is an acceptable lisp, it was very interesting. 2015-03-10T03:40:30Z Zhivago: Hmm, is it an acceptable CL because it is littered with random rubbish? 2015-03-10T03:41:04Z JokesOnYou77: JS is often procedural, but it also works on an event loop which definitely ups the WTF factor 2015-03-10T03:41:10Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T03:41:18Z JokesOnYou77: Zhivago, entirely possible 2015-03-10T03:42:17Z Zhivago: Um, JS doesn't work on an event loop -- it uses an algorithmic evaluation model. 2015-03-10T03:42:57Z Zhivago: (except for MS's botching of their ajax extension) 2015-03-10T03:43:37Z Zhivago: That simplifies a lot of things, but it does mean that you need to maintain an incremental model of anything involving interactive i/o. 2015-03-10T03:43:56Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:44:00Z JokesOnYou77: When I use setTimeout my understanding was that the evaluation goes onto the event loop for some later evaluation 2015-03-10T03:44:14Z clintm joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:44:18Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:45:08Z Zhivago: No. You're just scheduling a timer to call something after a given time. 2015-03-10T03:45:33Z JokesOnYou77: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/EventLoop 2015-03-10T03:45:39Z Zhivago: There's nothing special about that, and you have it in most languages. 2015-03-10T03:46:03Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:46:34Z mj-0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T03:46:37Z JokesOnYou77: So...why did you say no event loop? 2015-03-10T03:47:00Z Zhivago: Because it's not part of the language? 2015-03-10T03:47:01Z JokesOnYou77: It's pretty clear, setTimeout isn't a timer, the second arg is a min time, not a guaranteed time. 2015-03-10T03:47:13Z Zhivago: That's why I said "after" ... 2015-03-10T03:47:32Z Zhivago: If you read the language spec, you'll discover a complete absence of event loops. 2015-03-10T03:47:36Z JokesOnYou77: Ahhh! Ok. 2015-03-10T03:47:40Z JokesOnYou77: Clearly I do. 2015-03-10T03:47:54Z JokesOnYou77: And here I thought I was starting to get the hang of it. :/ 2015-03-10T03:48:20Z Zhivago: An event loop is an obvious implementation strategy, so it can be a useful way to explain the semantics. 2015-03-10T03:48:38Z alvin3 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:49:06Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-03-10T03:49:32Z taylanub joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:50:26Z ajtulloch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T03:51:04Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:54:06Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:54:34Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-10T03:54:35Z ruste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T03:54:38Z pocket: Is there any good library to convert CamelCase <=> snake_case <=> lisp-case? 2015-03-10T03:56:13Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-03-10T03:56:59Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-03-10T03:59:05Z Denommus` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T04:00:30Z clintm: pocket: seems like you could write one with some ppcre or just splitting by uppercase and then joining with '-' but I dunno. 2015-03-10T04:00:51Z clintm: well, split, downcase, then join with '-' 2015-03-10T04:01:13Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-03-10T04:01:32Z clintm: Although, according to the google style guide, downcase is discouraged vs (format ..) but I might have read that wrong. 2015-03-10T04:02:01Z pocket: Hmm.. Thanks I'll try it. 2015-03-10T04:02:04Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:02:10Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:02:38Z pocket quit 2015-03-10T04:04:23Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:05:44Z mj-0_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:05:44Z mj-0_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T04:05:51Z mj-0_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:06:33Z fxer joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:09:31Z ajtulloch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:09:58Z alvin3 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:13:25Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T04:14:01Z brian_o quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:16:30Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:17:14Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:17:38Z moei joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:27:24Z bugrum quit 2015-03-10T04:31:48Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-03-10T04:33:05Z brian_o joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:35:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:39:50Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:41:06Z smokeink joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:41:33Z beach joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:41:35Z pnathan is now known as p_nathan 2015-03-10T04:41:40Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:41:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-03-10T04:42:03Z p_nathan: hello beach, it is almost 10pm here. I wonder where you live. :) 2015-03-10T04:42:42Z beach: p_nathan: /whois beach will give you a clue. 2015-03-10T04:43:02Z beach: p_nathan: Unless your knowledge of geography sucks. 2015-03-10T04:43:37Z p_nathan: You know, after so long in web 2.0, I forget the deep usefulness of pre "2.0" technology. 2015-03-10T04:43:46Z pjb: - 2015-03-10T04:44:21Z pillton: G'day beach. 2015-03-10T04:44:59Z drmeister: beach - hello. 2015-03-10T04:45:56Z beach: drmeister: I saw Bike sorted you out. 2015-03-10T04:46:24Z Bike: that's one way to describe it 2015-03-10T04:46:44Z beach: drmeister: US daylight savings time + my sleeping an hour late is making it harder to interact. 2015-03-10T04:46:57Z qubitnerd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:47:08Z dagnachewa quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-03-10T04:47:51Z drmeister: Well - almost sorted out - I'm still unsettled that I can't use DEFCONSTANT with objects created by C++ functions. 2015-03-10T04:47:57Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:48:06Z beach: drmeister: You can. 2015-03-10T04:48:12Z beach: drmeister: They are Lisp objeccts. 2015-03-10T04:48:14Z pillton: Bike: Are you a bit rough? 2015-03-10T04:48:15Z beach: objects. 2015-03-10T04:48:17Z drmeister: But that's despite bike's best efforts. 2015-03-10T04:48:28Z Bike: pillton: eh? 2015-03-10T04:48:48Z drmeister: Could we talk about this "lisp objects" thing - what exactly does it mean? What would not be a "lisp object"? 2015-03-10T04:48:51Z Zhivago: demeister: Well, defconstant operates on variables rather than objects. 2015-03-10T04:49:08Z Zhivago: drmeister: So I'm not sure what it would mean to 'use DEFCONSTANT with objects created by C++ functions'. 2015-03-10T04:49:18Z beach: drmeister: It means anything that can be the value of a variable, the argument to a function or the return value of a function. 2015-03-10T04:49:47Z drmeister: Zhivago: I mean something like: (defvar +temp-i8+ (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty cmp:*llvm-context*)) 2015-03-10T04:49:52Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:49:54Z beach: dr 2015-03-10T04:49:55Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-03-10T04:50:10Z beach: er, drmeister: A comment in source code is not a Lisp object. 2015-03-10T04:50:24Z drmeister: (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty ...) return a C++ object that is a black box to CL other than through accessor functions provided by C++. 2015-03-10T04:50:30Z Bike: the fact you get it from C++ isn't important, the fact you can't reconstruct one is 2015-03-10T04:50:49Z beach: drmeister: It is still a Lisp object, or it would not be the value of a Common Lisp variable. 2015-03-10T04:50:53Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:51:08Z drmeister: Ok, that helps. Comments - not Lisp objects. So anything you can bind to a variable. 2015-03-10T04:51:42Z Bike: all i was trying to say is that something being from C++ is irrelevant to make-load-form if you can reconstruct it. 2015-03-10T04:52:20Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:52:22Z drmeister: Bike - it's not your fault - I can be pretty dense until something clicks in my head - don't sweat it. 2015-03-10T04:52:43Z fxer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T04:52:52Z beach: Your problem here is that Cleavir appropriately replaces the reference to the constant variable with its value. Then it turns that into a load-time-value form. Now, your problem is that when you build a FASL, you must somehow tell the system how to create a similar thing. That is where make-load-form comes in. 2015-03-10T04:53:03Z drmeister: beach: If I define a constant like (defconstant +temp-i8+ (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty cmp:*llvm-context*)) NOTE: I meant to use DEFCONSTANT above 2015-03-10T04:53:16Z beach: drmeister: I knoe. 2015-03-10T04:53:17Z beach: know 2015-03-10T04:53:23Z beach: sheesh, not awake yet. 2015-03-10T04:53:41Z drmeister: Oh - so I need to use make-load-form here? 2015-03-10T04:53:59Z Bike: you do if you're back to using defconstant, yeah 2015-03-10T04:54:00Z beach: drmeister: The error message yo get is not from Cleavir. 2015-03-10T04:54:22Z drmeister: I know - I recognize my error messages like I recognize my children. 2015-03-10T04:54:28Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir just tells you that there are these forms that need to be evaluated at load time. 2015-03-10T04:54:49Z beach: drmeister: Among those forms there is a (load-time-value ') 2015-03-10T04:55:17Z beach: drmeister: You need to inform the system how to build such a thing at load time. 2015-03-10T04:55:32Z Bike: incidentally, beach, i'm curious what your view on (defconstant foo (load-time-value ...)) is. 2015-03-10T04:55:34Z Vutral_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T04:55:45Z beach: Bike: It makes absolutely no sense to me. 2015-03-10T04:56:11Z Bike: oh good, we agree! 2015-03-10T04:56:17Z drmeister: Why does that make no sense? 2015-03-10T04:56:35Z clintm: drmeister: with the 27 feb release of llvm, is clasp easier to build, or does it still require a specific version? 2015-03-10T04:56:43Z Bike: because defconstant is a compile-time constant, and l-t-v is a load-time constant, basically 2015-03-10T04:56:44Z beach: drmeister: Because it says to define things as a constant at compile time, but it's value is not known until load time. 2015-03-10T04:57:08Z drmeister: Ok, I can feel good about that. 2015-03-10T04:57:19Z Bike: hopefully you're still using defvar or whatever 2015-03-10T04:57:21Z drmeister: clintm: specific version of OS? 2015-03-10T04:57:45Z drmeister: Bike - yeah - I switched everything to defvar - that's working and I know why it's working. 2015-03-10T04:58:00Z drmeister: I can switch back to defconstant once I understand why and what it means. 2015-03-10T04:58:12Z clintm: debian jessie 2015-03-10T04:58:16Z drmeister: constants aren't just variables that won't change in Common Lisp. 2015-03-10T04:58:22Z beach: drmeister: It doesn't matter that your objects come from C++. If I had an object of type (say) PERSON in my source code, then there would be a (load-time-value '#) form to evaluate at load time. 2015-03-10T04:58:46Z beach: drmeister: For that kind of object as well, you need to tell your system how to create a "similar" object at load time. 2015-03-10T04:59:31Z drmeister: clintm: People have compiled it on Jessie - yes. 2015-03-10T05:00:03Z drmeister: beach - I get that - but what about defconstant? 2015-03-10T05:00:23Z beach: drmeister: What about it? 2015-03-10T05:00:37Z clintm: drmeister: oh, so have I. My question was more if it still requires a custom build of llvm or if the latest release might have solved whatever was the reason for it. 2015-03-10T05:00:44Z drmeister: (defconstant +temp-i8+ (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty cmp:*llvm-context*)) compiles fine. 2015-03-10T05:00:57Z Bike: ...you were saying it didn't, earlier... 2015-03-10T05:01:18Z drmeister: But when later code tries to use +temp-i8+ I get complaints about not being able to compile the literal # 2015-03-10T05:01:26Z Bike: oh. 2015-03-10T05:01:39Z Bike: well, right, that's because it doesn't have a make-load-form method so it doesn't know how to make the forms beach speaks of. 2015-03-10T05:01:40Z beach: drmeister: OK, let's do this one more time.... 2015-03-10T05:01:48Z drmeister: Bike - no, it's the code that uses the constants - sorry - I didn't make that clear. 2015-03-10T05:01:53Z drmeister: Ok. 2015-03-10T05:02:17Z Bike: though maybe that indicates that your defconstant definition doesn't actually set the symbol value at load time? 2015-03-10T05:02:19Z beach: drmeister: When Cleavir asks for (variable-info '+temp-i8+).. 2015-03-10T05:02:27Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-03-10T05:02:40Z beach: drmeister: And Clasp returns an instance of constant-variable-info... 2015-03-10T05:02:55Z Vutral_ quit (Excess Flood) 2015-03-10T05:03:19Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-03-10T05:03:31Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir replaces the occurrence of +..+ by the VALUE indicated in that constant-variable-info. 2015-03-10T05:03:44Z drmeister: Yes. 2015-03-10T05:03:53Z beach: drmeister: And turns the entire thing into a (load-time-value ') 2015-03-10T05:03:54Z drmeister: Which causes me heartburn. 2015-03-10T05:04:09Z drmeister: Ah 2015-03-10T05:04:15Z drmeister: Now I see. 2015-03-10T05:04:22Z drmeister: Now I get it. 2015-03-10T05:04:46Z beach: After that, Cleavir doesn't care how you generate that value at load time. 2015-03-10T05:04:57Z qubitnerd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T05:05:20Z beach: To the function compiled by Cleavir, it is just the contents of a register or a "cell" or something. 2015-03-10T05:05:47Z drmeister: Now the (DEFCONSTANT +temp-i8+ (llvm-sys:type-get-int8-ty cmp:*llvm-context*)) - does Cleavir do anything to that? 2015-03-10T05:05:53Z beach: drmeister: If you want to create a FASL from all this, you need to stick in a form into that FASL that creates a "similar" object at load time. 2015-03-10T05:06:13Z drmeister: Right - and the definition is in the body of the DEFCONSTANT. 2015-03-10T05:06:16Z beach: drmeister: Yes, it macroexpands whatever you have defined defconstant to do. 2015-03-10T05:06:59Z beach: drmeister: If the expansion has any (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL) in it, then it calls CLEAVIR-ENV:EVAL on it. 2015-03-10T05:07:41Z Bike: curious what that definition is, btw 2015-03-10T05:07:50Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir does not try to second-guess what your macro definitions might be. 2015-03-10T05:08:33Z drmeister: Is that the problem then? I need to rewrite the macro to generate a load-time-value, EVAL it, get the result, put the result into a hash-table as the key with an integer index into the load-time-value array and then later when I get (load-time-value ') I lookup the index and generate code to lookup the value in the load-time value array? 2015-03-10T05:08:39Z beach: drmeister: Apparently, you defined it so that next time Cleavir asks for (VARIABLE-INFO...) it returns an instance of CONSTANT-VARIABLE-INFO. 2015-03-10T05:08:50Z p_nathan left #lisp 2015-03-10T05:08:58Z beach: drmeister: Your macro is doing fine. 2015-03-10T05:09:08Z beach: drmeister: Why do you think your macro is not doing the right thing? 2015-03-10T05:09:28Z beach: drmeister: Your macro caused variable-info to return an instance of constant-variable-info. 2015-03-10T05:09:35Z beach: drmeister: That is what it should do. 2015-03-10T05:09:56Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:09:58Z drmeister: I don't think it's generating code to generate the load-time-value and stick it in the load-time-value array. 2015-03-10T05:10:36Z Bike: seriously, can i see the definition? 2015-03-10T05:10:46Z drmeister: Hang on. 2015-03-10T05:10:47Z Bike: let me just find it. 2015-03-10T05:10:52Z beach: drmeister: If you haven't told your system how to generate code that, when evaluated, creates an object that is "similar" to this object, then you can't create a FASL for it. 2015-03-10T05:11:26Z Bike: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/2ba833a547ff99b8f5b1dd6a17161124f8cde76f/src/tests/exceptionHandling/case.lsp hm, pretty sure that eval-when is unnecessary 2015-03-10T05:11:38Z drmeister: That's where I grow confused - because I clearly am generating FASLs in my bootstrapping compiler. 2015-03-10T05:11:39Z Bike: unless you actually need the value at compile time somewhere else, i guess? 2015-03-10T05:11:42Z drmeister: FASLs that work. 2015-03-10T05:12:01Z beach: drmeister: I think you told me that your bootstrapping compiler doesn't replace references to a constant variable by its value. 2015-03-10T05:12:07Z Bike: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/07b2268db4d7b0fc6b9bbfc79eef0e1a348f1f19/src/lisp/kernel/init.lsp#L142-L153 Is this it? 2015-03-10T05:12:10Z beach: drmeister: Then the problem disappears. 2015-03-10T05:12:23Z Bike: (i, uh, hope not, it seems pretty wrong) 2015-03-10T05:12:42Z Bike: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/2ba833a547ff99b8f5b1dd6a17161124f8cde76f/src/tests/core/destructure0.lsp#L61-L77 maybe this. 2015-03-10T05:12:49Z drmeister: Bike - that's the one that it boots up with - there is another I think 2015-03-10T05:13:01Z beach: drmeister: If your bootstrapping compiler does not replace references to constant variables by their values, then all you have is a variable reference. 2015-03-10T05:13:50Z drmeister: Yeah - I think that's all I have. I've been treating constants like variables that don't change 2015-03-10T05:13:52Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:14:51Z drmeister: The definition of defconstant is in "clasp/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/evalmacros.lsp" line 96 2015-03-10T05:14:53Z beach: drmeister: There is an easy "fix" for this "problem". Don't return instances of constant-variable-info when Cleavir asks for variable-info. Then you get the same behavior as before. It is stupid because now you can't take advantage of compile-time optimizations of that value, but it will work as before. 2015-03-10T05:15:34Z drmeister: beach: I'd like to take advantage of compile-time optimizations on values - that's why I'm being a pain in the ass trying to "get" constants in Common Lisp. 2015-03-10T05:15:43Z Bike: What's SYS:*MAKE-CONSTANT do? 2015-03-10T05:15:48Z beach: drmeister: What you ought to be doing is to teach your system how to generate code that creates a "similar" object to a given object at load time. 2015-03-10T05:16:26Z beach: drmeister: A constant variable is a variable that has a value that will never change, so the compiler is free to replace references to that variable with its value. 2015-03-10T05:16:31Z beach: drmeister: That's all there is to it. 2015-03-10T05:16:32Z drmeister: beach: I have that for everything but these kinds of values that come out of C++ functions. 2015-03-10T05:16:43Z beach: drmeister: Then you know what is missing. 2015-03-10T05:16:55Z Bike: maaaaake looooooad fooooorm 2015-03-10T05:17:12Z beach: Bike: thank you. 2015-03-10T05:17:22Z Bike: sorry. 2015-03-10T05:17:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T05:17:50Z drmeister: *MAKE-CONSTANT is here: 2015-03-10T05:17:51Z beach: Bike: No, I understand. He said it himself. He can be pretty dense before he gets it. :) 2015-03-10T05:17:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/dflNlMc6 2015-03-10T05:18:00Z drmeister: Damn indentation. 2015-03-10T05:18:35Z drmeister: It's a special binding with the IsConstant property set to true. 2015-03-10T05:18:39Z Bike: hm, not sure why compiling defconstant doesn't complain just as much as compiling uses of the value, then 2015-03-10T05:19:05Z drmeister: So I need a make-load-form for every kind of value that would be generated by a C++ function. 2015-03-10T05:19:31Z Bike: if you want them in the compiler, yep 2015-03-10T05:19:38Z beach: drmeister: I think that's true. 2015-03-10T05:19:54Z beach: drmeister: But there is one piece of information missing that you need to tell us. 2015-03-10T05:19:58Z drmeister: Ok, I don't think I care if they are in the compiler - there's no optimization that I can imagine that would take advantage of them. 2015-03-10T05:20:13Z drmeister: I home it's not my age. 2015-03-10T05:20:16Z drmeister: hope 2015-03-10T05:20:24Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:20:29Z drmeister: What do I need to tell you? 2015-03-10T05:20:42Z beach: drmeister: When Cleavir gives you a list of load-time-values, what do you do with them? 2015-03-10T05:21:05Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir will generate a HIR program, and a list of forms to evaluate at load time. 2015-03-10T05:21:14Z drmeister: Does Cleavir give me a list of load-time-values? I missed that if it does. 2015-03-10T05:21:15Z beach: drmeister: Among those forms is a ' 2015-03-10T05:21:21Z beach: what do you do with it? 2015-03-10T05:21:44Z beach: drmeister: Remember the top-level-enter-instruction? 2015-03-10T05:22:00Z drmeister: Oh, those - yeah. 2015-03-10T05:22:16Z beach: drmeister: Er, "those" are what we are talking about. 2015-03-10T05:22:23Z drmeister: Ok, now we are getting somewhere. 2015-03-10T05:22:43Z beach: drmeister: What do you do with them? 2015-03-10T05:22:58Z drmeister: I generate code that constructs them and puts them into an array at load time. 2015-03-10T05:23:20Z beach: drmeister: That is what is failing for ' 2015-03-10T05:23:45Z beach: drmeister: How do you generate that code? 2015-03-10T05:23:46Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:23:47Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-03-10T05:24:10Z drmeister: I think I'm not coalescing these load-time-values. 2015-03-10T05:24:21Z beach: drmeister: For example, if you see '#, what do you do? 2015-03-10T05:24:40Z beach: drmeister: What code do you generate and how do you do it? 2015-03-10T05:25:41Z beach: drmeister: Remember, you can't put Bill in a FASL so you must generate code to create an object "similar" to Bill at load time. How do you do it? 2015-03-10T05:25:43Z drmeister: I run - because I owe him money. --- I'm kidding - you mean in the code? I don't follow - it's an #<...> object that can't be evaluated. 2015-03-10T05:25:55Z Bike: but what do you put in the fasl. 2015-03-10T05:26:10Z Bike: presumably you don't write "#" 2015-03-10T05:26:24Z beach: drmeister: # is an instance of the class PERSON, defined by someone you don't know. 2015-03-10T05:27:04Z beach: drmeister: Now you have to generate code to stick in the FASL, so that when the file is loaded, you create an object that looks very "similar" to Bill. 2015-03-10T05:27:09Z beach: drmeister: How do you do it? 2015-03-10T05:27:46Z drmeister: I still don't follow. You can't evaluate # 2015-03-10T05:28:21Z beach: drmeister: Presumably, if it is not a person but '(a b c) you will generate code like (list (intern ...) (intern ...) (intern ....)) 2015-03-10T05:28:30Z drmeister: Absolutely. 2015-03-10T05:28:40Z Bike: okay, so what do you do with a person, then. 2015-03-10T05:28:58Z beach: drmeister: If it is #(234 324) you will generate code like (make-array 2 :initial-contents '(234 345)) 2015-03-10T05:29:08Z Bike: if i give you code like (person-name #.(make-person ...)) what happens. 2015-03-10T05:29:17Z beach: drmeister: What Bike says. What do you do if it is a person? 2015-03-10T05:29:29Z drmeister: I'd build them up with a make-instance or make-person. 2015-03-10T05:29:47Z beach: drmeister: You know nothing about that class, because you didn't define it. 2015-03-10T05:29:58Z beach: drmeister: You don't know what initargs it takes. 2015-03-10T05:30:05Z beach: drmeister: You don't know what slots it has. 2015-03-10T05:30:12Z beach: drmeister: What code do you generate? 2015-03-10T05:30:18Z beach: drmeister: And how do you generate it? 2015-03-10T05:30:28Z drmeister: Do you have some real code because you're starting to freak me out. 2015-03-10T05:30:35Z Bike: the thing i said. 2015-03-10T05:30:37Z clintm: beach asks the hard questions. 2015-03-10T05:30:38Z Bike: what would you generate for it. 2015-03-10T05:31:13Z drmeister: For #.(make-person...)) 2015-03-10T05:31:17Z Bike: yes. 2015-03-10T05:31:38Z Bike: so the compiler is just seeing a literal # cos that form is evaluated by the reader. 2015-03-10T05:31:41Z beach: drmeister: Take your old compiler. In a file, put what Bike says. 2015-03-10T05:32:17Z beach: drmeister: Now call your old compile-file with that file. 2015-03-10T05:32:22Z Bike: well, with some class that actually exists, hopefully. 2015-03-10T05:32:30Z beach: Right. 2015-03-10T05:32:34Z drmeister: #.(make-person Bill) 2015-03-10T05:32:38Z beach: drmeister: Let's do this from the beginning. 2015-03-10T05:32:55Z beach: drmeister: 1. Define a class (defclass person () ()) 2015-03-10T05:33:11Z drmeister: Got it 2015-03-10T05:33:18Z beach: drmeister: 2. Create a file containing #.(make-instance 'person) 2015-03-10T05:33:29Z beach: drmeister: 3. Compile that file with your old compile-file. 2015-03-10T05:33:33Z drmeister: In the same file or separate files? 2015-03-10T05:33:48Z beach: drmeister: Do number 1 interactively. 2015-03-10T05:33:55Z beach: drmeister: No need for a file. 2015-03-10T05:34:31Z beach: [I hope I didn't make the PERSON class too simple] 2015-03-10T05:34:48Z beach: The system has no way of knowing I hope. 2015-03-10T05:35:00Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:35:00Z drmeister: It throws an error when I try and compile it. 2015-03-10T05:35:02Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:35:11Z Bike: alright, good. what error, just to be sure? 2015-03-10T05:35:12Z beach: drmeister: In Common Lisp we "signal" an error. 2015-03-10T05:35:19Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T05:35:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OYwqtwQS 2015-03-10T05:36:03Z Bike: um. 2015-03-10T05:36:06Z Bike: ok, i don't know what that is. 2015-03-10T05:36:36Z beach: drmeister: I would say, fix that problem first, and then we can talk. 2015-03-10T05:36:46Z Bike: what it ought to do is signal an error like "don't know how to dump #". i can't even guess what that is. 2015-03-10T05:36:57Z vdamewood quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-03-10T05:36:59Z beach: drmeister: What Bike says. 2015-03-10T05:37:10Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:37:31Z drmeister: I just tried it with SBCL - it compiled fine 2015-03-10T05:37:46Z drmeister: And runs fine. 2015-03-10T05:38:00Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:38:10Z drmeister: With Clasp it signals an error during compilation. 2015-03-10T05:38:18Z drmeister: I don't think I'm conformant here. 2015-03-10T05:38:57Z drmeister: We are compiling a self-evaluating object into the FASL right? 2015-03-10T05:39:04Z drmeister: An instance of PERSON 2015-03-10T05:39:35Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:39:40Z beach: drmeister: I don't know by what magic SBCL figures out what to put in the FASL. 2015-03-10T05:40:03Z beach: drmeister: It ought to signal something like what Bike says. 2015-03-10T05:40:03Z drmeister: Neither do I. 2015-03-10T05:40:04Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-10T05:40:14Z beach: drmeister: Maybe my PERSON class is too simple. 2015-03-10T05:40:38Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-03-10T05:40:48Z drmeister: ECL generates a warning when it compile-files 2015-03-10T05:40:58Z beach: drmeister: What does it say? 2015-03-10T05:41:08Z drmeister: And loads fine. 2015-03-10T05:41:09Z Bike: drmeister: do (defvar *foo* #.(make-instance 'person)) instead 2015-03-10T05:41:16Z Bike: sbcl seems to optimize it out if the object isn't used 2015-03-10T05:41:17Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:41:20Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1LPuB7UA 2015-03-10T05:41:21Z beach: OHHHH! 2015-03-10T05:41:52Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-03-10T05:42:09Z beach: drmeister: Yes, listen to Bike again. Put (defvar *foo* #.(make-instance 'person)) in the file. 2015-03-10T05:42:44Z drmeister: Ok, I see the error in SBCL - it doesn't know how to dump PERSON 2015-03-10T05:42:53Z beach: drmeister: I am afraid both ECL and Clasp are wrong here. 2015-03-10T05:43:26Z drmeister: Well that was before the defvar 2015-03-10T05:43:28Z beach: drmeister: You need to make sure that Clasp basically signals the same error. Then you have to figure out how to use make-load-form to fix it. 2015-03-10T05:43:47Z drmeister: Now ECL is saying "No adequate specialization of MAKE-LOAD-FORM 2015-03-10T05:43:55Z beach: Good. 2015-03-10T05:44:07Z beach: Now you have to make sure Clasp does the same. 2015-03-10T05:44:21Z drmeister: Ok and now Clasp is saying something that is more consistent with the others - hang on. 2015-03-10T05:44:23Z beach: drmeister: Then you have to make sure you understand how to fix it by using make-load-form. 2015-03-10T05:44:26Z drmeister: I'm going to restart it and try again. 2015-03-10T05:44:27Z Bike: basically how it works conceptually is that when the compiler sees a nontrivial constant, it calls make-load-form, and there's a standard method on make-load-form that signals an error (so, if no more specific methods are defined) 2015-03-10T05:44:35Z Bike: incidentally, i wonder if this is in ansi-tests. 2015-03-10T05:45:31Z drmeister: Here is the error that Clasp is throwing up. 2015-03-10T05:45:34Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9nCKmhn2 2015-03-10T05:45:39Z beach: drmeister: "signals" 2015-03-10T05:45:45Z drmeister: Grrr 2015-03-10T05:46:05Z Bike: drmeister: well, that's the right idea, except that codegen doesn't sound like a lisp thing, and in lisp we can define make-load-form methods instead 2015-03-10T05:46:06Z drmeister: It's complaining that my literal compiler doesn't know what to do with PERSON 2015-03-10T05:46:10Z Bike: right. 2015-03-10T05:46:21Z x1n4u quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T05:46:23Z Bike: there should be another attempt before falling back to wahtever that is, an attempt to call make-load-form. 2015-03-10T05:46:25Z beach: drmeister: This is the essence of the problem. 2015-03-10T05:46:31Z drmeister: I don't think I tied make-load-form into the literal compiler yet. 2015-03-10T05:46:39Z beach: drmeister: You need to do that. 2015-03-10T05:46:41Z drmeister: As you can see - I don't really understand it yet. 2015-03-10T05:46:52Z drmeister: I think I left it out because I didn't understand it. 2015-03-10T05:46:55Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:47:16Z beach: drmeister: Then you need to use this mechanism when you generate code for the FORMs of the TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION. 2015-03-10T05:47:52Z beach: drmeister: Once you have done that, it will SIGNAL an error that it doesn't know how to compile literal constants of the type . 2015-03-10T05:48:02Z beach: drmeister: Finally, you need to use make-load-form to fix that. 2015-03-10T05:48:15Z drmeister: See https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/master/src/lisp/kernel/cmp/compiler.lsp#L1219 2015-03-10T05:48:26Z Bike: Oh, easy fix then! 2015-03-10T05:49:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:49:11Z Bike: (t (make-load-form obj env)). well, not that easy, but similar. 2015-03-10T05:49:12Z beach: drmeister: Now, do you see why this problem has absolutely nothing to do with DEFCONSTANT? 2015-03-10T05:49:38Z drmeister: Ok, wait - there's a bit more to this. 2015-03-10T05:49:52Z drmeister: I can't put that in here because at this point the bootstrapping compiler doesn't have CLOS. 2015-03-10T05:50:05Z drmeister: That's why I didn't add it at that point. 2015-03-10T05:50:20Z beach: drmeister: Looks like you have some work to do. 2015-03-10T05:50:21Z drmeister: beach: I see what you are saying. 2015-03-10T05:50:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:50:40Z Bike: the other thing is that make-load-form actually returns two forms... there's all this stuff with circularity... 2015-03-10T05:50:44Z beach: drmeister: It has to do with how to generate code to put in the FASL that will create an object "similar" to one that is known at compile time. 2015-03-10T05:50:48Z drmeister: Once I get CLOS loaded I can overwrite codegen-atom and add that. 2015-03-10T05:51:44Z drmeister: See, the bootstrapping compiler is written in pidgin Common Lisp with no CLOS and several other things missing (conditions, restarts etc). 2015-03-10T05:52:07Z drmeister: All that newfangled generic function stuff doesn't exist at that point. 2015-03-10T05:52:12Z beach: I can't help you with that. 2015-03-10T05:52:14Z clintm: Is #, standard? I'm not sure how to get info on it in the repl. The HS lists it, but also underneath says that it was voted out of the language. 2015-03-10T05:52:17Z drmeister: I understand. 2015-03-10T05:52:36Z Bike: clintm: it was removed, yeah. iirc it was like #. but different in some strange way. 2015-03-10T05:52:40Z Bike: clhs # 2015-03-10T05:52:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 2015-03-10T05:52:42Z drmeister: Ok, but the answer is in make-load-form. 2015-03-10T05:53:00Z beach: drmeister: CONGRATULATIONS! You finally got it! 2015-03-10T05:53:08Z Bike: clintm: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss315_w.htm for deets. 2015-03-10T05:53:09Z Pastaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T05:53:10Z drmeister: I'm asking you. :-) 2015-03-10T05:53:28Z beach: drmeister: Yes, it is. 2015-03-10T05:53:58Z beach: clhs make-load-form 2015-03-10T05:53:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 2015-03-10T05:54:09Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:54:09Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-03-10T05:54:09Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:54:57Z beach: drmeister: But you have to make sure that the code you generate for the FORMs of the TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION uses this mechanism of course. 2015-03-10T05:55:37Z drmeister: In other news - the Cleavir/Clasp has passed the halfway point compiling the Clasp source code. It's on the 45th file out of 83 2015-03-10T05:55:41Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-03-10T05:55:50Z beach: That's great news. 2015-03-10T05:56:14Z drmeister: It will - it does. This is the "reusing the existing compiler" thing. 2015-03-10T05:57:14Z drmeister: Ok, but will I still need to write a make-load-form for every type of C++ object that I want to define as a constant with DEFCONSTANT? 2015-03-10T05:57:20Z drmeister: I know I can look this up. 2015-03-10T05:57:40Z drmeister: Because if so - I don't want to use DEFCONSTANT. 2015-03-10T05:57:44Z beach: drmeister: Do you also now see that your problem has nothing to do with the fact that these objects come from C++? We did get the same problem from PERSON which has nothing to do with C++. Right? 2015-03-10T05:57:46Z drmeister: I'll stick with DEFVAR 2015-03-10T05:57:56Z drmeister: Sure. 2015-03-10T05:59:25Z beach: drmeister: You know what you can do? You can make the method on variable-info test if your constant is one of those C++ objects and return a special-variable-info instance rather than a constant-variable-info instance. 2015-03-10T05:59:52Z beach: drmeister: Then you get the benefits of compile-time optimizations for other constants. 2015-03-10T06:00:46Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-10T06:00:53Z drmeister: That will then generate code to use symbol-value to look it up? 2015-03-10T06:00:53Z beach: drmeister: But for your C++ objects, Cleavir would not replace the variable reference by the value. 2015-03-10T06:01:04Z beach: drmeister: Yeah. 2015-03-10T06:01:10Z drmeister: Cool - I can do that. 2015-03-10T06:01:58Z drmeister: I'll have to write a predicate for it. 2015-03-10T06:02:27Z beach: We have to leave *some* work for you. 2015-03-10T06:02:46Z a2015 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-03-10T06:02:56Z clintm: Does the objective with clasp have to do with some sort of llvm interop with other libraries or is it maybe just an interesting/fun/educational thing to write? (which is reason enough to do anything imo) 2015-03-10T06:03:21Z beach: clintm: Interperability with C++. 2015-03-10T06:03:37Z clintm: ok, cool. 2015-03-10T06:03:43Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:03:55Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:03:58Z drmeister: Thanks for your patience. 2015-03-10T06:03:59Z beach: clintm: Apparently very difficult to do with just FFI because of name mangling, exception handling, etc. 2015-03-10T06:04:36Z drmeister: clintm: It's difficult enough that nobody has done it with an FFI. 2015-03-10T06:04:59Z clintm: beach: interesting. 2015-03-10T06:05:13Z beach: clintm: I am just regurgitating what I have heard. 2015-03-10T06:06:58Z beach: drmeister: I need a break. Do you need me for anything in the next half hour or so? 2015-03-10T06:07:21Z drmeister: Unless you want to tuck me in to bed - no. 2015-03-10T06:07:33Z beach: I think I will decline... 2015-03-10T06:07:39Z drmeister: Or sing a lullaby 2015-03-10T06:08:04Z drmeister: Right I'm off to bed - I'll be tossing and turning all night. 2015-03-10T06:08:58Z mj-0_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T06:09:07Z heurist`_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:09:25Z heurist_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:10:05Z mj-0 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:11:26Z c74d left #lisp 2015-03-10T06:12:13Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-10T06:16:55Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:18:25Z brian_o quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:19:01Z cabaire quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-10T06:19:10Z psy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T06:21:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:21:46Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:21:55Z ben_vulpes: i'm struggling to flatten a list of values for use as a postmodern/postgres array: for arrays the format i need to supply postmodern is #("thinger" "otherthinger"), and I have a (list "thinger1" "thigner2" ... ) that i need to smash into a...list? prefixed with a reader macro? 2015-03-10T06:22:10Z Bike: that's an array. 2015-03-10T06:22:15Z Bike: try (coerce your-list 'vector) 2015-03-10T06:22:18Z ben_vulpes: oh. 2015-03-10T06:22:35Z Bike: try (type-of #("foo" "bar")) also. 2015-03-10T06:22:50Z ben_vulpes: of course it's a vector. silly me. 2015-03-10T06:22:54Z ben_vulpes: er, array. 2015-03-10T06:23:03Z Bike: vectors are 1d arrays. 2015-03-10T06:23:03Z Quadrescence: a vector is a particular kind of array 2015-03-10T06:23:05Z Bike: clhs #( 2015-03-10T06:23:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 2015-03-10T06:24:17Z ben_vulpes: is a vector a sub(class? type?) of arrays? 2015-03-10T06:24:30Z ben_vulpes to the clhs 2015-03-10T06:24:52Z Ranis quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:25:10Z Bike: subtype and subclass. they are one dimensional arrays. 2015-03-10T06:25:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:27:33Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-03-10T06:28:13Z cabaire joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:28:17Z fxer joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:29:06Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:32:29Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T06:32:49Z fxer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:33:37Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:34:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:34:34Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T06:34:42Z easye joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:37:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:37:52Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T06:38:08Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:38:21Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:39:03Z theos joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:43:35Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:44:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:44:51Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T06:45:03Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:45:16Z easye joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:46:30Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:46:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T06:47:42Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T06:48:54Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-03-10T06:49:10Z beach: drmeister: I started a new novel: http://metamodular.com/novel.text Do you like it? 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What's is meant by "reduce consing"? I take that to mean "don't make new lists from two separate lists." but there's got to be more to it than that. 2015-03-10T09:48:18Z clintm: at least, intuition tells me that there is. 2015-03-10T09:48:33Z H4ns: consing is just a word for heap allocations 2015-03-10T09:48:51Z H4ns: so by consing, one can also refer to allocating strings, or any other type of object. 2015-03-10T09:49:34Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T09:49:48Z clintm: Do I put this into practice by making sure I reduce temporary vars unless readability will suffer? 2015-03-10T09:50:08Z |3b|: put it into practice by ignoring it until you have a specific need 2015-03-10T09:50:32Z H4ns: clintm: temporary vars do not necessarily mean more heap allocations. if they're used just once, they're not causing more consing than leaving them out, most of the time. 2015-03-10T09:50:33Z |3b|: it is a way to avoid a specific performance problem, if you don't have that problem, don't make your code more complicated trytingto avoid it 2015-03-10T09:50:41Z clintm: I think I might. We have a web service that is getting ~5 second gc pauses. 2015-03-10T09:50:56Z sword`` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:51:17Z H4ns: clintm: you should use a profiler to measure where your performance is spent, and if it is spent in gc, then reduce the consing in those parts of the code that allocate a lot of memory needlessly, if any. 2015-03-10T09:51:29Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:51:29Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:52:01Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2015-03-10T09:52:09Z sword` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T09:52:14Z clintm: of course, I'll do that now. I was just afraid I was doing something out of ignorance that was causing the problem. 2015-03-10T09:53:00Z |3b|: 5sec sounds a bit high, are you running with a huge heap normally? (10s of GB allocated for examples) 2015-03-10T09:53:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:53:42Z |3b|: might not help to avoid consing if your normal working data set takes a long time to GC for whatever reason 2015-03-10T09:53:56Z clintm: No, not at the moment. We're just using the compiled defaults on jessie. 2015-03-10T09:54:05Z clintm: err, debian jessie 2015-03-10T09:54:14Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T09:54:28Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:54:34Z |3b|: do you use lots of finalizers or weak hash tables? 2015-03-10T09:55:01Z |3b| seems to remember one or the other of those being expensive to GC in sbcl when used in large numbers 2015-03-10T09:55:08Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:55:16Z mega1`: both, I think 2015-03-10T09:55:51Z clintm: No, it's all pretty straightforward. Pull from a db, check a couple of things, and then send off, in this case, a blob of json. 2015-03-10T09:56:41Z clintm: but profiling should uncover where we're messing up. I wanted to make sure I tried solving the root problem before I rebuilt sbcl with a huge heap, etc. 2015-03-10T09:57:11Z |3b| suspects a huge heap would just make things worse, if the problem is long GCs rather than frequent GCs 2015-03-10T09:57:35Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T09:57:49Z |3b|: GC should be able to handle short-lived garbage very quickly 2015-03-10T09:57:50Z clintm: Right, that occurred to me as well if sbcl has to scan the entire thing. 2015-03-10T09:58:25Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-03-10T09:58:42Z radioninja joined #lisp 2015-03-10T09:59:02Z |3b|: for that matter, reducing consing could make things worse, if it leads to more modifications in old data. you would get fewer GCs, but longer since it would have to scan more of the heap 2015-03-10T09:59:53Z schoppenhauer quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-10T10:00:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:00:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-03-10T10:00:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:02:07Z luisxu404 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:03:09Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T10:03:50Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T10:05:11Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:05:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:06:59Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:07:16Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:08:53Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-03-10T10:10:08Z paradoja joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:19:50Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:20:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:22:58Z marcoecc joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:27:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T10:27:59Z marcoecc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-03-10T10:27:59Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2015-03-10T10:28:24Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:29:23Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:29:59Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:31:01Z selat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T10:31:26Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:33:14Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T10:33:37Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:33:59Z paradoja quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-10T10:38:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T10:40:07Z Bahman joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:42:32Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T10:42:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-03-10T10:44:21Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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All of them fail in one way or the other 2015-03-10T11:03:40Z RenRenJuan quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-10T11:04:04Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:04:41Z ASau` joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:04:49Z clintm joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:04:51Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T11:05:05Z cadadar joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:07:29Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T11:07:32Z |3b|: Xach: i think it shouldn't error on that file now, though still doesn't handle ``` without a blank line before it properly 2015-03-10T11:07:50Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:08:15Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T11:09:14Z beetlebu_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T11:10:23Z loke: ECL can't load iolib, MKCL can't do cffi grovel, CLISP fails on the cffi groveller in some other way, CCL can't load chunga 2015-03-10T11:10:43Z H4ns: ccl can't load chunga? 2015-03-10T11:10:49Z H4ns: that sounds rather bad. 2015-03-10T11:10:56Z loke: ABCL is the one that gets closest, but it can't load the latest Drakma 2015-03-10T11:11:39Z H4ns: loke: did you compile ccl yourself? was the error "Special operator or global macro-function CCL::NHASH.MIN-SIZE can't be FUNCALLed or APPLYed"? 2015-03-10T11:11:45Z loke: (also, abcl has some other limitations) 2015-03-10T11:11:54Z loke: H4ns: Yes, indeed that is it 2015-03-10T11:12:14Z loke: Is there a solution for that? 2015-03-10T11:12:15Z H4ns: loke: you'll need to rebuild ccl two times "for bootstrapping reason" 2015-03-10T11:12:26Z loke: Oh ok 2015-03-10T11:12:30Z loke: I'll try that tomorrow 2015-03-10T11:12:32Z H4ns: loke: rme suggested that on the mailing list and the thread ended at that point, so it might work. 2015-03-10T11:12:46Z H4ns: abcl can't load drakma also does not sound too good to me. 2015-03-10T11:12:53Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:12:58Z loke left #lisp 2015-03-10T11:13:06Z loke joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:13:19Z loke: It's because of a limitation in ABCL' 2015-03-10T11:13:24Z loke: It's because of a limitation in ABCL's implementation of Grey streams 2015-03-10T11:13:53Z loke: There is a problem trying to create a method that qualifies on the type of stream 2015-03-10T11:14:13Z H4ns: ah, you asked me whether we'd accept a workaround for that issue, right? 2015-03-10T11:14:16Z loke: I talked to easye about it and it's a tricky fix 2015-03-10T11:14:30Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:14:30Z loke: H4ns: I did ask, but you said you were not maintaining ADrakma anymore 2015-03-10T11:15:14Z H4ns: well, i'm not the primary maintainer but i still somewhat care. 2015-03-10T11:15:26Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:16:10Z loke: H4ns: it's introduced by this change: https://github.com/edicl/drakma/commit/201d3638849e6bc2813a15e1f4e4c8bc60387817 2015-03-10T11:16:58Z loke: I think it's line 84 2015-03-10T11:17:19Z loke: Basically there is a (declare (flexi-input-stream stream)) there, which fails on ABCL 2015-03-10T11:17:29Z loke: (I'll have to test again to make sure, it's been a few days :-) ) 2015-03-10T11:19:10Z H4ns: if it is just the declaration, that could easily be conditionalized out for abcl if it does not work there. 2015-03-10T11:20:34Z loke: H4ns: thanks 2015-03-10T11:21:04Z loke: It's a type check on a grey stream, and that's the only one i see in that change. Let me test it when I get home 2015-03-10T11:21:29Z loke: I have to leave the office now 2015-03-10T11:21:31Z H4ns: loke: ok - please send a pull request if it fixes the problem 2015-03-10T11:23:04Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-03-10T11:25:20Z Xach habitually always uses (declare (type ...)) instead of (declare ( ...)) 2015-03-10T11:26:27Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T11:27:05Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:30:18Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T11:30:36Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:31:18Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:31:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:32:10Z Xach can't find the chapter & verse / discussion that led to this habit :( 2015-03-10T11:38:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:43:46Z xach quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-03-10T11:46:18Z paradoja joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:46:19Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T11:49:12Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-03-10T11:50:13Z 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But I am a bear of notoriously little brain. 2015-03-10T18:54:50Z Shinmera: Yeah, post-increment always makes me have to read things again so I avoid it entirely. 2015-03-10T18:55:10Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-03-10T18:55:55Z sol__ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T18:57:22Z Tordek joined #lisp 2015-03-10T18:59:28Z admg quit (Quit: Laptop gone to sleep...) 2015-03-10T19:00:43Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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At first I'll declare unused varaibles as unused, but also make issues for v 1.1 to implement missing features 2015-03-10T19:47:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-03-10T19:48:00Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2015-03-10T19:52:55Z snipe_er joined #lisp 2015-03-10T19:53:18Z tmh_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T19:56:41Z tmh_ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T19:57:14Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-03-10T19:59:20Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-03-10T20:00:02Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:01:44Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:05:40Z ghard joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:06:06Z nell joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:09:01Z Oveja joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:11:45Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:15:45Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:16:59Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:19:53Z snipe_er quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:23:38Z bcoburn|laptop joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:24:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:24:51Z bcoburn` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:26:06Z admg joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:27:24Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:28:19Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:29:50Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-03-10T20:31:21Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T20:31:31Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-03-10T20:37:59Z Oveja quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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What is the right syntax ? I tried many differents :initial-contents and can't find the good one :-/ 2015-03-10T22:36:52Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-10T22:37:50Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:42:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-10T22:44:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:44:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-03-10T22:44:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:45:26Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-03-10T22:46:57Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-03-10T22:47:44Z Bicyclidine: arnaudga: (make-array (list 2 length) :initial-contents (list v1 v2)) 2015-03-10T22:48:26Z arnaudga: ok thanks 2015-03-10T22:49:27Z Bicyclidine: arnaudga: depending on what you mean by "based on". 2015-03-10T22:49:35Z Bicyclidine: maybe you want them concatenated, i don't know. 2015-03-10T22:49:57Z arnaudga: no, really 2 vectors in one array 2015-03-10T22:50:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-03-10T22:50:21Z Bicyclidine: I don't know what you mean. 2015-03-10T22:50:49Z pjb: arnaudga: do you want a matrix or a vector? 2015-03-10T22:50:59Z rhllor quit (Quit: rhllor) 2015-03-10T22:51:25Z pjb: both matrices and vectors are arrays, so "2 vectors in one array" doesn't mean much. 2015-03-10T22:52:11Z arnaudga: Bicyclidine, you answerd 2015-03-10T22:52:50Z arnaudga: I just didn't understand how to put my vectors in one array, now it's ok 2015-03-10T22:53:03Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:53:30Z pjb: also, you could aim for (let ((v1 (vector 1 2 3)) (v2 (vector 4 5))) (make-array '(2 2 2) :initial-contents (vector (list (list v1 nil) '(nil nil)) (list '(nil nil) (list nil v2))))) -> #3A(((#(1 2 3) nil) (nil nil)) ((nil nil) (nil #(4 5)))) 2015-03-10T22:53:31Z pjb: 2015-03-10T22:54:00Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:55:03Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:55:09Z arnaudga: ah ok, thanks 2015-03-10T22:56:42Z larion joined #lisp 2015-03-10T22:56:56Z cadadar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-03-10T23:01:50Z larion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:02:34Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:02:50Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:04:20Z ajtulloch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T23:04:56Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:07:55Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:08:59Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:09:09Z Kanae joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:11:46Z tristero joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:11:54Z trystero quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:13:09Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:14:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:14:46Z tristero quit (Client Quit) 2015-03-10T23:16:52Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:18:36Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-03-10T23:18:52Z sol__ joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:23:11Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-03-10T23:23:59Z fragamus joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:25:36Z a2015 joined #lisp 2015-03-10T23:27:01Z gklimowicz quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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