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2015-03-03T03:32:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-03T03:33:05Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-03-03T03:33:59Z beach: nyef: So are you working on NQ-CLIM yet?
2015-03-03T03:34:30Z nyef: Taking an assessment of where it is in relation to the spec.
2015-03-03T03:34:48Z beach: That's good news!
2015-03-03T03:35:31Z nyef: Also of which parts of the spec make sense to me and which I'm planning on ignoring either outright or until I understand why they're there.
2015-03-03T03:36:04Z beach: Do you need to do that work up front?
2015-03-03T03:36:24Z nyef: Not all of it.
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2015-03-03T03:37:04Z nyef: The main thing that I need to figure out is what the next parts that need implementing are.
2015-03-03T03:37:13Z beach: Sure.
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2015-03-03T03:39:40Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2015-03-03T04:09:12Z beach: drmeister: Are you around?
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2015-03-03T04:10:15Z oleo: morning all
2015-03-03T04:10:22Z beach: Hello oleo.
2015-03-03T04:10:29Z oleo: hello beach
2015-03-03T04:10:41Z beach: drmeister: How do you represent CONS cells?  What is the tag?  How does one find out whether a pointer is a CONS cell or some other heap-allocated object?
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2015-03-03T04:11:21Z oleo: consp ?
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2015-03-03T04:12:01Z beach: In this case I want to know what machine instructions it takes.
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2015-03-03T04:13:19Z oleo: ah
2015-03-03T04:13:33Z oleo: well why don't you (disassemble #'consp) ?
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2015-03-03T04:13:44Z oleo: or some such...
2015-03-03T04:14:04Z beach: I am not sure that would tell the entire story, but that's a possibility.
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2015-03-03T04:16:57Z Zhivago: Where is his repository?
2015-03-03T04:17:48Z beach: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
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2015-03-03T04:21:16Z Zhivago: obj.isA<Cons_O>()
2015-03-03T04:21:30Z beach: Yeah, it's a C++ class.
2015-03-03T04:21:53Z beach: I was just checking whether it has its own tag.  It appears not.
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2015-03-03T04:22:31Z Bike: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/07b2268db4d7b0fc6b9bbfc79eef0e1a348f1f19/include/clasp/core/cons.h#L128 of course, i couldn't for the life of me tell you how to read this
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2015-03-03T04:23:10Z Zhivago: Looking at include/clasp/gctools/smart_pointers.h you can see where the specializations are.
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2015-03-03T04:23:16Z Fare: beach: chào anh
2015-03-03T04:23:16Z drmeister: Hello
2015-03-03T04:23:23Z drmeister: A couple of ideas.
2015-03-03T04:23:33Z beach: Fare: Chào em.
2015-03-03T04:23:37Z Zhivago: It's specialized for fixnum, frame, unboundp.
2015-03-03T04:23:44Z Zhivago: Oops, and nil.
2015-03-03T04:23:46Z Bike: oh boy, i found more files for drmeister to remove!
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2015-03-03T04:24:24Z drmeister: I think I can implement a dereferencing operator that strips a tag from my tagged pointer.
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2015-03-03T04:24:33Z drmeister: If I can do that then I can use a non 0x00 tag for pointers.
2015-03-03T04:24:38Z beach: That would be fantastic.
2015-03-03T04:24:44Z drmeister: Then I could use 0x00 for FIXNUMs
2015-03-03T04:24:59Z drmeister: I have a spare tag that I'm currently using in a kind of stupid way.
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2015-03-03T04:25:01Z Bike: "#ifdef USEBOOSTPYTHON" i'm excited
2015-03-03T04:25:06Z beach: Can you have a different tag for CONS and other heap objects?
2015-03-03T04:25:08Z drmeister: I could use the spare tag for CONS cells.
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2015-03-03T04:25:51Z beach: drmeister: A good choice would be a single 0 for fixnums, so that you have 63 bits left.
2015-03-03T04:25:55Z drmeister: If this is all possible then it will be fairly easy to implement by editing a few header files.
2015-03-03T04:26:10Z drmeister: beach: That is a good point.
2015-03-03T04:26:27Z Zhivago: SBCL does a nice thing with one, two and three bit tags.
2015-03-03T04:26:53Z drmeister: Zhivago: I refer to this occasionally http://lars.nocrew.org/lisptags.html
2015-03-03T04:26:54Z beach: drmeister: Then you can have 001, 011, 101, and 111 for other stuff.
2015-03-03T04:27:27Z beach: Zhivago: Well, it is really dumb that they have a tag for LIST rather than for CONS.
2015-03-03T04:27:45Z Zhivago: Hmm, I think that's out of date.
2015-03-03T04:27:57Z beach: Yes, I agree, but it is still in there.
2015-03-03T04:27:58Z Zhivago: There should be two fixnum tags in SBCL -- one for evens and one for odds.
2015-03-03T04:28:09Z drmeister: My current tagging scheme is in clasp/include/clasp/gctools/tagged_ptr.h
2015-03-03T04:29:23Z beach: I don't see a directory named include at the top level.
2015-03-03T04:29:45Z beach: Zhivago: I don't think so.  Negative is just the sign bit as usual.
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2015-03-03T04:30:23Z beach: Zhivago: You obtain the tagged fixnum by shifting left one bit, whether it is positive or negative.
2015-03-03T04:30:42Z drmeister: I'm surprised that its better to use 0x00 as the tag for FIXNUMs rather than using that as the tag for pointers.
2015-03-03T04:31:01Z beach: drmeister: Because then you can add them with the normal machine instruction.
2015-03-03T04:31:09Z drmeister: I would have thought that dereferencing was something that was done more often than FIXNUM arithmetic.  Am I wrong about that?
2015-03-03T04:31:17Z beach: drmeister: If you use something else, you have to subtract the tag from one of them.
2015-03-03T04:31:19Z Zhivago: beach: Which gives you effectively two tags -- one for even and one for odd.
2015-03-03T04:32:09Z beach: drmeister: And dereferencing is done by a LOAD instruction that can take a small offset in it.
2015-03-03T04:32:41Z beach: drmeister: So dereferencing has the same cost, independently of the tag.
2015-03-03T04:32:43Z drmeister: Really?  The LOAD instruction ignores the offset by one?
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2015-03-03T04:32:59Z drmeister: If I used 0x01 as the tag for pointers.
2015-03-03T04:33:02Z beach: drmeister: No, there is an offset stored in the instruction itself.
2015-03-03T04:33:15Z beach: ... and that offset can be -1
2015-03-03T04:33:38Z drmeister: Ah, but I'm not going to be able to get C++ to do that.
2015-03-03T04:33:43Z nyef: drmeister: Most CPU architectures allow a (usually signed) constant displacement for any memory reference instruction.
2015-03-03T04:33:52Z beach: So if you use 011 for CONS, then CAR is LOAD Rx, A-3
2015-03-03T04:33:55Z Zhivago: A little inline assembly might go a long way.
2015-03-03T04:33:58Z nyef: Umm... Why wouldn't you be able to get C++ to do that?
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2015-03-03T04:34:05Z drmeister: Of is there a way to get C++ to do that?
2015-03-03T04:34:14Z nyef: SBCL does it in C, doesn't it?
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2015-03-03T04:34:35Z beach: It is certainly easy to do in C.
2015-03-03T04:34:36Z nyef: (Well, sort-of does it in C.)
2015-03-03T04:34:42Z beach: drmeister: I showed you how to do it the other day.
2015-03-03T04:34:48Z drmeister: How?
2015-03-03T04:35:10Z drmeister: beach: Sorry, I don't recall
2015-03-03T04:35:13Z nyef: Cast the value to an integer, de-bias it, cast it to a pointer, dereference it.
2015-03-03T04:35:24Z drmeister: Oh
2015-03-03T04:35:29Z beach: *((cons *) (((unsigned long long int) ptr) - 3))
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2015-03-03T04:35:49Z drmeister: I see, the compiler will optimize it to a constant dispacement
2015-03-03T04:35:57Z beach: ... modulo number of `long'.
2015-03-03T04:36:20Z beach: drmeister: Oh, but wait...
2015-03-03T04:36:26Z nyef: Right, it has to be four longs to go the distance!
2015-03-03T04:36:37Z beach: drmeister: You can't do that by overloading any C++ operation.
2015-03-03T04:36:58Z nyef: (Okay, that was fairly weak.)
2015-03-03T04:37:11Z beach: nyef: Indeed!
2015-03-03T04:37:34Z drmeister: beach: Why not?
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2015-03-03T04:38:14Z beach: drmeister: Maybe I am wrong...
2015-03-03T04:38:25Z drmeister: I can overload the operator-> and operator*
2015-03-03T04:38:45Z beach: drmeister: I was thinking, you can't do ANYTHING with a tagged pointer in C++ until you remove the tag, including accessing the class.
2015-03-03T04:39:06Z beach: drmeister: But maybe you don't need to.
2015-03-03T04:39:11Z nyef: beach: Wouldn't matter if the operator isn't a virtual method, the static type information should be sufficient.
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2015-03-03T04:39:27Z beach: nyef: Yeah, that's what I realized.
2015-03-03T04:39:40Z drmeister: Those operators are not virtual functions.
2015-03-03T04:39:45Z beach: OK.
2015-03-03T04:39:53Z drmeister: So this should be easy.
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2015-03-03T04:40:36Z drmeister: I just swap the value of fixnum_tag and ptr_tag and adjust the dereference operators.
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2015-03-03T04:40:56Z beach: drmeister: If it is not too hard to do, it is definitely worth trying.
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2015-03-03T04:41:02Z drmeister: There is one problem.  NULL
2015-03-03T04:41:09Z drmeister: NULL is 0x000000000
2015-03-03T04:41:13Z beach: drmeister: The potential speed of the final system depends on it.
2015-03-03T04:41:17Z drmeister: It is also FIXNUM 0
2015-03-03T04:41:25Z beach: drmeister: I strongly recommend you get rid of NULL as a special case.
2015-03-03T04:41:35Z beach: drmeister: Just make it a symbol as it should be.
2015-03-03T04:41:51Z drmeister: This isn't NIL
2015-03-03T04:41:59Z beach: Oh, right.  Sorry.
2015-03-03T04:42:01Z drmeister: NULL and NIL are two different things in Clasp
2015-03-03T04:42:16Z beach: But NULL would never be used.
2015-03-03T04:42:48Z beach: It is not a Lisp object.
2015-03-03T04:42:59Z drmeister: It isn't a Lisp object - you are correct.
2015-03-03T04:43:23Z drmeister: I do use it though - it's what you get back when a dynamic_cast fails.  Let me think - it may be ok.
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2015-03-03T04:43:48Z beach: A dynamic cast can never return a fixnum if it succeeds, can it?
2015-03-03T04:43:57Z beach: So you should be fine.  Just test for the fixnum 0.
2015-03-03T04:43:58Z drmeister: No.
2015-03-03T04:44:04Z drmeister: That's why I think it could be ok.
2015-03-03T04:44:41Z drmeister: I mean - no, the dynamic cast can never return a fixnum if it succeeds
2015-03-03T04:45:00Z beach: Right.
2015-03-03T04:45:11Z drmeister: I'm going to try a smoke test.
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2015-03-03T04:48:47Z emaczen: I'm having trouble with a case statement on a cons, and how to match it.
2015-03-03T04:48:58Z emaczen: Example: (case (cons '* '+)
2015-03-03T04:49:24Z emaczen: I am simply trying  (cons '* '+) as the first match without any luck...
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2015-03-03T04:49:41Z beach: emaczen: Common Lisp doesn't have "statements".  It has FORMS.  And CASE uses EQL to test so you can't use anything that requires (say) EQUAL.
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2015-03-03T04:50:11Z emaczen: beach: are there other case variants?
2015-03-03T04:50:35Z ggole: emaczen: if you don't need choice you could use destructuring-bind, otherwise look for a pattern matching library
2015-03-03T04:50:44Z drmeister: I just swapped the tags for fixnum and pointers.   fixnum_tag is 0x00 and ptr_tag is 0x11  I also subtracted three from the dereferencing operators
2015-03-03T04:50:44Z beach: emaczen: I believe some libraries (Alexandria) has more general CASE forms.
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2015-03-03T04:50:55Z drmeister: This is probably going to end poorly.
2015-03-03T04:51:19Z emaczen: ggole: I'm destructuring and then immediately using a case form
2015-03-03T04:51:26Z emaczen: beach: thanks I'll look into it
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2015-03-03T04:53:39Z Fare: beach: what's the status of cleavir?
2015-03-03T04:54:31Z beach: Fare: Cleavir now generates intermediate representation in the form of a traditional flowchart.
2015-03-03T04:54:48Z beach: Fare: No optimizations yet.  I am working on inlining at the moment.
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2015-03-03T04:55:23Z Fare: beach: nice
2015-03-03T04:55:28Z Fare: what's the input?
2015-03-03T04:55:30Z beach: Fare: The intermediate representation is sufficiently stable that drmeister can use it to generate code through the LLVM.
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2015-03-03T04:55:43Z beach: Fare: A form and an environment.
2015-03-03T04:55:48Z Fare: oh, so you have a LLVM target
2015-03-03T04:55:56Z beach: I don't.
2015-03-03T04:55:58Z drmeister: Fare: Code that actually runs.
2015-03-03T04:56:00Z beach: drmeister does.
2015-03-03T04:56:29Z Fare: beach: is the input language full common lisp (minus "libraries")?
2015-03-03T04:56:51Z beach: Fare: I think so.  I might have missed something, but I don't think so.
2015-03-03T04:57:20Z beach: Fare: The trick is the environment.  It delivers macros and information about functions, etc.  I have a protocol for it.
2015-03-03T04:58:00Z beach: Fare: Client code (like Clasp) has to supply methods on a few generic functions.
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2015-03-03T04:58:42Z Fare: beach: congratulations!
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2015-03-03T04:59:03Z beach: Fare: Thanks!  There is still a lot of work.
2015-03-03T04:59:13Z Fare: do you handle things like SSA ?
2015-03-03T04:59:33Z beach: Fare: The code is there, but probably suffered from bitrot.
2015-03-03T04:59:40Z drmeister: beach: It's a bit more complicated - I have to get my memory allocators to add the tag - they don't do that by default.
2015-03-03T04:59:53Z beach: Fare: LLVM takes care of that for drmeister so I haven't been working on it.
2015-03-03T04:59:58Z beach: Quadrescence: As promised: http://metamodular.com/bit-reversal.lisp
2015-03-03T05:00:09Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I see.
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2015-03-03T05:02:14Z drmeister: Hmm, I think that just means fixing the constructors for tagged_ptr
2015-03-03T05:02:24Z beach: drmeister: Careful.
2015-03-03T05:02:35Z Fare: drmeister: what's your speed gap relative to ecl?
2015-03-03T05:02:37Z beach: drmeister: Ultimately you want different tags for CONS and other heap objects.
2015-03-03T05:02:56Z fxer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2015-03-03T05:03:01Z Fare: and what are the biggest source of slow-down?
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2015-03-03T05:03:30Z drmeister: Fare - it's still pretty slow.   100x to 500x slower than SBCL.
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2015-03-03T05:03:59Z drmeister: I believe the source of the slowdown is a complete lack of inlining and the use of closures for all bindings.
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2015-03-03T05:04:38Z drmeister: This is with my original compiler.   Cleavir is the solution that we are implementing.
2015-03-03T05:04:42Z Fare: so you literally implement let with a lambda?
2015-03-03T05:05:06Z Fare: oh, so you're not using cleavir in "production" yet.
2015-03-03T05:05:31Z drmeister: Fare: I've only had runnable Cleavir generated code for a few days.
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2015-03-03T05:05:55Z Fare: 100x slower only takes us back 10 years or so.
2015-03-03T05:05:58Z ggole: I have to admit, I wouldn't have expected escape analysis to remain unimplemented
2015-03-03T05:06:09Z Fare: computers could do stuff ten years ago.
2015-03-03T05:06:29Z beach: Quadrescence: How long do you need to implement the challenge at the end of that page?
2015-03-03T05:06:29Z Fare: ggole: where?
2015-03-03T05:06:38Z ggole: In drmeister's compiler
2015-03-03T05:06:46Z Quadrescence: beach, Which challenge on what page?
2015-03-03T05:06:56Z beach: Quadrescence: As promised: http://metamodular.com/bit-reversal.lisp
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2015-03-03T05:07:07Z Fare goes back to his compiler for a pure python subset, written in clojure
2015-03-03T05:07:21Z Quadrescence: beach, Hooray! I will look soon and try to tell you.
2015-03-03T05:07:24Z drmeister: We should pick this conversation up in a month - things will be very different.
2015-03-03T05:07:40Z beach: Quadrescence: If you remain silent for too long, I'll implement it myself. :)
2015-03-03T05:07:54Z Quadrescence: beach, By soon I mean after a phone call. ;)
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2015-03-03T05:08:01Z beach: Heh!
2015-03-03T05:08:32Z beach: Quadrescence: I must be getting old.  Despite having invented the algorithm myself in the past, it took two days to get it right, including one day to figure out what the main idea was.
2015-03-03T05:09:59Z beach: Quadrescence: One of the challenges is to create specialized versions of the functions.  That might not be necessary on modern computers.  But I don't know for sure.  The other challenge is the most important one.
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2015-03-03T05:13:25Z beach: ggole: I think it is easy to have a distorted idea of the importance of certain optimizations if one doesn't have experience with compiler writing, especially for Common Lisp.
2015-03-03T05:14:29Z faheem_: Bike: thanks for the additional files in that issue,
2015-03-03T05:14:34Z faheem_: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/41#issuecomment-76887620
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2015-03-03T05:15:09Z faheem_: Are these all complete file paths? Also, could you add in the file sizes too, preferably in human-readable format (-h)?
2015-03-03T05:15:30Z faheem_: Oh, never mind, you say src/core.
2015-03-03T05:16:09Z faheem_: Most of these look pretty small. Is that correct?
2015-03-03T05:16:19Z faheem_: I thin they could just be deleted.
2015-03-03T05:16:20Z beach: ggole: Also, I don't know about drmeister, but many C++ programmers actually believe that C++ code is fast, so it is easy to think that, as long as the Lisp operations are implemented in C++, that will automatically give good performance.
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2015-03-03T05:18:06Z ggole: Yeah, I'm familiar with this kind of thinking
2015-03-03T05:18:19Z Zhivago: Well, many don't think that applies to things with RTTI. :)
2015-03-03T05:18:53Z beach: I have seen several professional project choose C++ for speed.  Then they use things like smart pointers or reference counters for memory management, slowing things down by a factor 10-100.
2015-03-03T05:19:20Z faheem_: beach: any C++ programmer who thinks C++ is fast needs his/her head examined.
2015-03-03T05:19:31Z ggole: You really have to design for performance, no matter what you are using
2015-03-03T05:19:32Z faheem_: I mean, automatically fast.
2015-03-03T05:19:53Z faheem_: beach: are smart pointers a big speed hit? I used to use them.
2015-03-03T05:20:04Z beach: faheem_: Maybe this comes as a surprise to you, but most professional (i.e., those who program for money) have absolutely no clue about performance.
2015-03-03T05:20:20Z faheem_: if so, what is the alternative? manage memory manually
2015-03-03T05:20:21Z ggole: shared_ptr is fairly expensive, built on top of atomic increments
2015-03-03T05:20:29Z faheem_: beach:  I don't really know what professional programmers know.
2015-03-03T05:20:37Z beach: faheem_: I do. :(
2015-03-03T05:20:51Z ggole: unique_ptr is fine, it's just a pointer that frees at the end of its lifetime
2015-03-03T05:20:55Z faheem_: ggole: hmm. but manual memory management is a grade A pain. and prone to leakage issues etc
2015-03-03T05:21:15Z ggole: Indeed.
2015-03-03T05:21:28Z nyef: As a professional programmer by that definition, I can assure you: Almost all of my performance issues are due to badly overloading my database with insane queries.
2015-03-03T05:21:31Z faheem_: ggole: I used to use shared_ptr. The one that was in Boost once. With all the library changes and standard modifications, I don't know what the current status is now
2015-03-03T05:21:43Z faheem_: In any case, I try to stay away from C++ if possible. Life is too short.
2015-03-03T05:21:50Z beach: faheem_: The alternative is to realize that your project will fail if you use a language without automatic memory management.
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2015-03-03T05:22:00Z ggole: The C++ stdlib has a shared_ptr now, it's similar to the boost facility.
2015-03-03T05:22:00Z faheem_: beach: like CL?
2015-03-03T05:22:05Z beach: yeah.
2015-03-03T05:22:19Z faheem_: ggole: what version of the standard is that for? C++ 11?
2015-03-03T05:22:35Z ggole: Yeah
2015-03-03T05:22:51Z faheem_: beach: well, I'm already a believer. Try convincing everyone else.
2015-03-03T05:23:17Z ggole: I wonder if Rust will make manual memory management less awful
2015-03-03T05:23:23Z beach: faheem_: I gave up trying many many years ago.
2015-03-03T05:23:27Z ggole: At least it's sound
2015-03-03T05:23:33Z faheem_: ggole: ok, thanks. I haven't done much with the C++ 11 version. Just a few programs. Mostly written as lib style things to be loaded by Python.
2015-03-03T05:24:15Z faheem_: Is there no way of using shared ptr to reduce performance hits?
2015-03-03T05:24:38Z ggole: The refcount is threadsafe, which is pretty expensive
2015-03-03T05:25:00Z faheem_: beach: aside from using sensible algorithms, the other things that seems to have a dramatic effect on performance is using sensible containers. in my experience.
2015-03-03T05:25:07Z faheem_: ggole: so that's basically a no, then?
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2015-03-03T05:25:58Z ggole: Well, you could design a different smart pointer without that particular overhead.
2015-03-03T05:26:14Z ggole: But not {boost,std}::shared_ptr
2015-03-03T05:26:17Z beach: faheem_: Sure.  And, again, many (most?) professional programmers don't know anything about basic abstract data types or their performance.
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2015-03-03T05:26:51Z faheem_: beach: I believe you. I don't really know professional programmers personally.
2015-03-03T05:27:06Z beach: faheem_: I used to consult for industry.  Scary stuff.
2015-03-03T05:27:26Z faheem_: ggole: any recommendations? I actually like refcounting in a C++ context. Not in Python though.
2015-03-03T05:27:29Z faheem_: beach: :-)
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2015-03-03T05:27:54Z Zhivago: If refcounting were fast ...
2015-03-03T05:28:09Z beach: faheem_: Reference counting adds at least a memory access and a test for each assignment.
2015-03-03T05:28:11Z Zhivago: DAGs are usually what you want.
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2015-03-03T05:28:36Z Zhivago: Plus an unpredictable overhead, and it hurts cache.
2015-03-03T05:28:36Z beach: faheem_: That's a factor 10 right there.  You are better off ditching C++ and using Common Lisp instead.
2015-03-03T05:28:43Z beach: Exactly.
2015-03-03T05:28:54Z Zhivago: Well, C++ is really set up to organize data as DAGs rather than refcounting.
2015-03-03T05:29:05Z ggole: There are some interesting schemes to make refcounting cheaper
2015-03-03T05:29:17Z Zhivago: And those aren't a bad solution providing that you can hammer your data into that particular hole.
2015-03-03T05:29:18Z ggole: They all lean towards becoming more like a GC
2015-03-03T05:29:22Z beach: Even if it is a DAG you still need reference counters, or else you end up copying lots of stuff.
2015-03-03T05:29:39Z Zhivago: There's a nice paper explaining refcounting and tracing as two ends of a continuum.
2015-03-03T05:30:02Z Zhivago: You don't need to copy if you're finding stuff from some fixed root set.
2015-03-03T05:31:04Z ggole: A Unified Theory of GC, Baker
2015-03-03T05:31:06Z ggole: Great paper
2015-03-03T05:31:28Z Zhivago: My favourite approach, these days, is to have algorithmic execution and simply delete all allocations after completion, that weren't output.
2015-03-03T05:31:42Z ggole: No, not Baker: Bacon, Cheng, Rajan
2015-03-03T05:32:05Z Zhivago: One reason that I like js's evaluation model -- they get a lot of the fundamentals right.
2015-03-03T05:33:38Z ggole: What do you mean by 'algorithmic execution'?
2015-03-03T05:34:35Z Oddity: What fundamentals did they get right?
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2015-03-03T05:39:50Z faheem_: Zhivago: DAGs?
2015-03-03T05:40:04Z faheem_: Direct Acyclic Graphs?
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2015-03-03T05:43:07Z jrm: I spawn off a new thread that loop indefinitely checking for new mail.  I would like to pause that loop for, say 60 seconds, but (sleep 60) pauses all threads.  http://ftfl.ca/paste/check-new-mail-one-thread.html  How can I only pause in the running thread?
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2015-03-03T05:43:55Z H4ns: jrm: what implementation do you use?
2015-03-03T05:44:35Z jrm: sbcl
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2015-03-03T05:44:53Z H4ns: jrm: sbcl does not pause all threads when one of them calls sleep
2015-03-03T05:45:02Z H4ns: jrm: there must be something else going on.
2015-03-03T05:45:35Z nyef: Might be a platform-specific interaction. IIRC, jrm is using FreeBSD.
2015-03-03T05:45:48Z H4ns: ah, non-threaded sbcl maybe?
2015-03-03T05:45:52Z jrm: Indeed I do.
2015-03-03T05:46:04Z jrm: No, I compile with threads.
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2015-03-03T05:54:37Z nyef: Ugh. Coming up on 1AM again. /-:
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2015-03-03T06:00:11Z sz0` is now known as sz0
2015-03-03T06:00:30Z sz0 is now known as sz0`
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2015-03-03T06:04:48Z Bike: faheem_: small, several of them are 0 B in fact. largest is over a meg.
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2015-03-03T06:05:19Z beach: Quadrescence: If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
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2015-03-03T06:23:37Z faheem_: Bike: yes, that's what I thought. Still, it is unnecessary clutter.
2015-03-03T06:23:48Z ktt9: Hello. It there any brief list of what lisp forms evals on each stage (:compile-toplevel etc.) for dummies? I'm shure this information can be found somewhere is CLHS, but my recent half an hour long attempt failed completely.
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2015-03-03T06:24:38Z Bike: clhs 3.2.3.1
2015-03-03T06:24:38Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2015-03-03T06:24:41Z Bike: maybe this is what you want?
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2015-03-03T06:29:31Z ktt9: Bike, thanks! Yeah. Turns out I just couldn't ask google the right question :c
2015-03-03T06:30:26Z pillton: ktt9: There is a link to it in the EVAL-WHEN documentation too.
2015-03-03T06:30:30Z pillton: clhs eval-when
2015-03-03T06:30:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
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2015-03-03T06:32:23Z beach: Suppose I want to do inlining by storing the AST corresponding to a function.  At compile-time, doing so is fairly easy.  Just have DEFUN compute and store the AST as a :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL action.  But what if I want to create the AST as a result of loading a FASL file?  I suppose I need to include in the FASL file a program that creates the AST at load time?
2015-03-03T06:32:25Z beach: Are there any other options?  I can't really re-create the AST from the original form at load time, because the same environment may not be around.
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2015-03-03T06:33:48Z Bike: probably have to keep the ast, yeah
2015-03-03T06:34:27Z beach: keep it?
2015-03-03T06:34:38Z ggole: Serialize it
2015-03-03T06:34:46Z ggole: This is a pretty common thing to do
2015-03-03T06:34:56Z beach: I thought of that.
2015-03-03T06:35:07Z beach: But it seems backward.
2015-03-03T06:35:16Z ggole: It's how various implementations do inlining while allowing separate compilation
2015-03-03T06:35:51Z beach: I could serialize it by creating a printed representation, and then use READ to re-create it.
2015-03-03T06:36:45Z beach: ... but I would rather create a program that creates the AST and include the compiled version of that program in the FASL.
2015-03-03T06:37:12Z beach: I am not sure why I prefer that solution.
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2015-03-03T06:38:03Z beach: Bike: In general I can't keep it between compile time and load time, because the two might be in different processes.
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2015-03-03T06:38:34Z Bike: wait, i'm thinking again. yeah, usually a fasl wouldn't have things you want to inline anyway.
2015-03-03T06:38:41Z Bike: might want a separate cfasl concept.
2015-03-03T06:38:53Z beach: Bike: Really?
2015-03-03T06:38:57Z beach: I see.
2015-03-03T06:39:57Z beach: So if I do (declaim (inline ff)) (defun ff (...) ...) in a FASL, when that FASL is loaded in a fresh Common Lisp process, FF can not be inlined?
2015-03-03T06:40:21Z beach: It seems to me desirable for that to be possible.
2015-03-03T06:40:33Z Bike: that's my understanding of the intended semantics, yes. of course, it would be within the standard to allow that, but i don't know that anybody actually does...
2015-03-03T06:40:49Z beach: Hmm.  I see.
2015-03-03T06:40:54Z Bike: that's why there's a separate cfasl concept that's sometimes supported, like a fasl but for compile time side effects (such as storing inline definitions)
2015-03-03T06:41:12Z beach: Never heard of CFASLs before.
2015-03-03T06:41:23Z Bike: they're nonstandard. xcvb used them, i think asdf might
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2015-03-03T06:41:28Z ggole: Oh yeah, I'd forgot about lisp's strange inlining rules
2015-03-03T06:41:35Z ggole: Bit clunky if you ask me.
2015-03-03T06:41:52Z beach: What rules are you referring to?
2015-03-03T06:42:04Z Bike: sbcl has an :emit-cfasl option to compile-file for them, if you want to take a gander.
2015-03-03T06:42:14Z beach: Interesting.
2015-03-03T06:42:22Z Bike: dunno about ccl.
2015-03-03T06:42:51Z ggole: With modern dynamic compilers, inlining should really be entirely transparent
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2015-03-03T06:43:23Z beach: ggole: You mean inline the machine code?
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2015-03-03T06:43:52Z Bike: or forcing recompile of functions using an inlined function?
2015-03-03T06:43:54Z ggole: I mean it's possible to support arbitrary inlining and redefinition
2015-03-03T06:44:10Z beach: Yeah, OK.
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2015-03-03T06:45:06Z ggole: And doing this allows various other nice things if you want to go down that path
2015-03-03T06:45:07Z beach: As Zhivago often points out (as I recall), the concept of a FASL is a bit strange these days.
2015-03-03T06:45:27Z Bike: yeah, it's stupid.
2015-03-03T06:45:28Z ggole: Speculative inlining of arguments, etc
2015-03-03T06:45:39Z Zhivago: Well, not so much FASLs as image dumping.
2015-03-03T06:45:51Z Zhivago: FASLs are pretty much just a re-invention of shared libraries.
2015-03-03T06:46:09Z beach: ... or the other way around. :)
2015-03-03T06:46:13Z Bike: but without linking and with a loading procedure based on side effects
2015-03-03T06:47:13Z Zhivago: Well, they have linkage via UNBOUNDP.
2015-03-03T06:47:30Z Zhivago: Or, rather, via unboundness.
2015-03-03T06:47:46Z Zhivago: Yeah -- shared libraries being declarative is probably the main difference.
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2015-03-03T06:59:23Z pillton: Bike: What is your issue with FASLs?
2015-03-03T06:59:32Z pillton: Zhivago: What is your issue with image dumping?
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2015-03-03T07:00:05Z Zhivago: They solve no real problems.
2015-03-03T07:00:07Z Bike: not declarative, no operations on them but loading
2015-03-03T07:00:18Z beach: Bike, ggole: thanks for the input.
2015-03-03T07:00:23Z jasom: Zhivago: image dumping solves the deployment problem
2015-03-03T07:00:35Z Zhivago: Except that it doesn't really.
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2015-03-03T07:01:30Z Zhivago: You need to configure before generating the image, but configuration is part of the deployment.
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2015-03-03T07:01:52Z jasom: Why do you need to configure before generating the image?
2015-03-03T07:02:06Z Zhivago: Then you need to deploy a configuration in addition to the image.
2015-03-03T07:02:12Z jasom: yes
2015-03-03T07:02:16Z Zhivago: Which brings us back to 'except it doesn't really'.
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2015-03-03T07:02:47Z jasom: Zhivago: well I can just give someone a lisp image and they can install it
2015-03-03T07:02:57Z Zhivago: You might as well just deploy a bunch of .so/.fasl or whatever.
2015-03-03T07:02:59Z jasom: things are a bit harder with e.g. python
2015-03-03T07:03:07Z Zhivago: python has eggs.
2015-03-03T07:03:17Z Zhivago: Which are ... bundles of modules and an interpreter, etc.
2015-03-03T07:03:37Z jasom: I wasn't able to figure it out.
2015-03-03T07:03:55Z Zhivago: All images end up doing is giving you a completely non-portable image which saves a bit of time but increases maintenance costs when you need to change something.
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2015-03-03T07:04:32Z Zhivago: And as soon as anything becomes corrupt or out of sync with your incremental changes to that image, you're completely screwed.
2015-03-03T07:04:51Z jasom: Why would I make incremental changes to the image?
2015-03-03T07:04:55Z Zhivago: Since there's no automated process that will show you how to get there.
2015-03-03T07:05:20Z Zhivago: Well, if you're not making incremental changes, then you're not taking advantage of its 'always up' feature, which is marginally useful.
2015-03-03T07:05:55Z Zhivago: So you end up rebooting to a fresh image ... giving no benefit over fasls other than a marginal reduction in load time.
2015-03-03T07:06:12Z jasom: and improved packaging
2015-03-03T07:06:33Z jasom: also a factor of 10 is not marginal reduction
2015-03-03T07:06:34Z Zhivago: How many times have you installed lisp images on your machine?
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2015-03-03T07:06:55Z H4ns: we deploy images all the time, and the reduction in startup time is not at all marginal for us
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2015-03-03T07:07:16Z jasom: Zhivago: it's not on my machine, it's on some random person's machine that I have no control over
2015-03-03T07:07:21Z Zhivago: It probably would be if your fasls were more like sos. :)
2015-03-03T07:07:42Z Zhivago: I understand _why_ you're using it. My point is that you shouldn't have those reasons in the first place.
2015-03-03T07:08:07Z jasom: I also strongly hate .so/.dll so...
2015-03-03T07:08:16Z H4ns: i agree that common lisp sucks.  and then i start some of our clojure applications, which take like 10 seconds to spin up :)
2015-03-03T07:08:24Z Zhivago: Back in the dark ages before shared libraries it was a pretty nifty feature, but ...
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2015-03-03T07:08:44Z jasom: slight revision ".so/.dll" I avoid whenever possible, there are times that they are useful, but they cause more problems than they solve the rest of the time
2015-03-03T07:09:18Z Zhivago: I'll agree that you have versioning issues there.
2015-03-03T07:09:54Z jasom: I hate the way glibc was managed, which seemed designed to emphasize all the weaknesses of dynamic libraries
2015-03-03T07:10:15Z jasom: while at the same time going out of its way to make it hard to statically link
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2015-03-03T07:12:31Z pillton: Zhivago: Right. So you would prefer "image dumping" to be a concatenation of FASL files bundled with a runtime i.e. like what ECL does?
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2015-03-03T07:13:32Z Zhivago: I'd prefer to have fast fasls, possibly implemented as shared libraries.
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2015-03-03T07:14:07Z Zhivago: Or static libraries, and less magical approach to linkage.
2015-03-03T07:16:18Z pillton: Wouldn't that be an entirely different process though? Loading (fast or not fast) is a destructive operation.
2015-03-03T07:16:28Z jasom: xcvb's goal was basically what I want from lisp images.  ASDF3 is "good enough" though.
2015-03-03T07:16:37Z pillton: You would be restricted on what top level forms you could compile.
2015-03-03T07:17:55Z jasom: I really like having incremental compilation while I'm developing, and building an image from a fresh startup lets me have a build I can reproduce in the future
2015-03-03T07:19:38Z Zhivago: jasom: You'd get the same thing from any build system -- it's just a question of how fast you can build.
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2015-03-03T07:23:45Z jasom: Zhivago: yes, but making FASLs declarative seems at odds with incremental compilation
2015-03-03T07:24:42Z Zhivago: That's true -- I've mostly moved from incremental compilation to exploration with test cases.
2015-03-03T07:25:15Z Zhivago: Which have the advantage of being replicable and detecting regression when you've figured out what should happen.
2015-03-03T07:25:45Z Zhivago: Being able to use a repl transcript like that might be useful.
2015-03-03T07:25:59Z pillton: When people say declarative FASL files, you mean, you have a specification of what should go in a FASL file and you invoke that specification?
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2015-03-03T07:32:08Z jasom: pillton: No, they mean "side-effect free at load time" I think
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2015-03-03T07:33:57Z pillton: Then that is narrowing operation. You wouldn't be able to do (let ((x ...)) (defun () x)).
2015-03-03T07:35:37Z jasom: I think the idea is that the performance gain would offset the loss in expressability
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2015-03-03T07:37:11Z jasom: I may be putting words in Zhivago's mouth, but his view as I understand it is that images are a workaround for the fact that FASLs are slow to load
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2015-03-03T07:50:23Z Zhivago: I'm not sure that fasls should be purely declarative, but that incremental modification tends to build up unreproducable complexity unless it's tracked into something like a fasl, itself.
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2015-03-03T07:54:54Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: actually, you could store only the AST in the fasl file, and have your loader generate the native code only upon loading, which would give you fasl files that can be distributed to different targets.
2015-03-03T07:54:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-03-03T07:56:14Z jasom: pjb: read-time conditionals?
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2015-03-03T07:58:09Z pjb: jasom: you still have to deal with them. Imagine you have a CL cross compiler?
2015-03-03T07:58:40Z pjb: jasom:  let's take the case of MoCL. It provides a :ARM feature.  But you can compile the generated C code to target Android/X86!
2015-03-03T07:58:58Z pjb: ccl solves this by having two sets of features.
2015-03-03T08:00:44Z pjb: eg. (:x86-target :x8664-target :linux-target :linuxx86-target :linuxx8664-target :64-bit-target :little-endian-target) vs. (:x86-host :x8664-host :linux-host :linuxx8664-host :64-bit-host :little-endian-host)
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2015-03-03T08:50:29Z Shinmera: I'm playing with the thought of attending ELS. Cany anyone tell me if there's a registration fee, and if so, how much that would cost me (based on previous years)?
2015-03-03T08:50:53Z akkad: els is not free, so thus not freenode worthy
2015-03-03T08:50:57Z Shinmera: Unfortunately the website still just says "tba" for registration.
2015-03-03T08:52:25Z Shinmera: akkad: Neither is Windows and people still discuss problems regarding it if it's lisp related. This is too.
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2015-03-03T09:03:54Z akkad: Shinmera: oh I know. I'm goofing. the double standard for "non-free" is funny
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2015-03-03T09:08:51Z Shinmera: I don't know about other channels, but I don't think I ever observed the kind of loathing against "non-free" here.
2015-03-03T09:09:54Z H4ns: well, if people try to discuss non-free lisp implementations here, they're frequently told to go to the respective support channels instead.
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2015-03-03T09:10:54Z Shinmera: Right, but that's just sensible, not negative. Or at least that's how I perceive it.
2015-03-03T09:11:13Z faheem_: Hi Shinmera
2015-03-03T09:11:33Z faheem_: akkad: what double standard?
2015-03-03T09:11:51Z H4ns: it is not called "goofing", but "trolling"
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2015-03-03T09:16:14Z pjb: akkad: freenode is not about gratis, it's about freedom!
2015-03-03T09:17:14Z pjb: My AGPL3 software is not gratis.  Just send me your name address, and I'll send you an invoice.  But I'm still giving you, and foremost your users freedoms with it!
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2015-03-03T09:20:29Z guaqua: images are really what you want for distribution. not fasls. the disk space saving you might get from having a finer granularity distribution is almost never just worth it. this coming from 3rd party (os-wise) application developer viewpoint
2015-03-03T09:21:29Z pjb: Some software is distributed as libraries.
2015-03-03T09:21:32Z guaqua: tradeoffs in a lisp machine would probably be different. on unix-like operating systems it's just going to be hard to work with the operating system provided things.
2015-03-03T09:22:06Z guaqua: that's a good point. i'm wondering whether there are any options for source distribution in lisp nowadays?
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2015-03-03T09:25:46Z Shinmera: Quicklisp?
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2015-03-03T09:30:59Z guaqua: Shinmera: isn't that source distribution? :)
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2015-03-03T09:32:13Z Shinmera: Yes. That's what you asked for.
2015-03-03T09:32:23Z guaqua: having worked with java, you basically work with both the bytecode (decompiled bytecode) and sources. the only advantage in the compiled bytecode is that you don't need to compile those as part of your build
2015-03-03T09:32:45Z Shinmera: But quicklisp can potentially distribute whatever you want.
2015-03-03T09:33:15Z guaqua: ahh. sorry... unambigous phrasing. was trying to figure out whether you can do other than source distribution. not asking for a source distribution tool per se
2015-03-03T09:33:43Z Shinmera: Quicklisp dists would allow you to distribute any kind of package as long as there's an ASDF system to load it.
2015-03-03T09:34:03Z Shinmera: The quicklisp dist itself won't, because of Xach's requirements for that.
2015-03-03T09:34:41Z Shinmera: But you can of course set up your own "non-sources" dist.
2015-03-03T09:35:25Z JuanDaugherty: guaqua, lisp apps are seldom distributed other than as source, excepting commercial products of course
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2015-03-03T09:35:42Z JuanDaugherty: for one thing the binaries aren't portable
2015-03-03T09:36:29Z JuanDaugherty: and there isn't actually 'a binary', there's the image
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2015-03-03T09:40:39Z JuanDaugherty: at the level of product dist it's the same, no need to distribute lisp sources there and recovering the sources is probably harder than from java bytecodes
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2015-03-03T09:41:10Z JuanDaugherty: if not impossible
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2015-03-03T09:43:32Z JuanDaugherty: also you may want to look at the other lisp which has a different approach to things
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2015-03-03T09:59:02Z Ralt: I was wondering
2015-03-03T09:59:12Z Ralt: is there a way, with with-open-file, to read a file at once?
2015-03-03T09:59:26Z Ralt: I could see with read-sequence, but I don't have the file size
2015-03-03T09:59:39Z Ralt: so I don't see a way except with loop while read-line
2015-03-03T09:59:50Z Ralt: which is not "at once"
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2015-03-03T10:00:44Z Shinmera: Ralt: May be of interest http://www.ymeme.com/slurping-a-file-common-lisp-83.html
2015-03-03T10:01:13Z Ralt: Shinmera: heh, I was on this link already
2015-03-03T10:01:21Z Ralt: found it after asking here...
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2015-03-03T10:21:19Z guaqua: JuanDaugherty, commercial app was what i was talking/thinking about
2015-03-03T10:21:51Z guaqua: and it's not only hiding/obfuscating the application the image distribution model is good for
2015-03-03T10:22:32Z guaqua: image is also better because it make testing an artifact possible. you don't have to reproduce an image state, you have it all already
2015-03-03T10:22:57Z JuanDaugherty: image based langs have mutable, dynamic binaries in effect, over the fixed binary of the lang implementation
2015-03-03T10:24:13Z JuanDaugherty: only a small amount of commercial software uses though
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2015-03-03T10:26:24Z JuanDaugherty: i'd be surprised if it's more than 1%
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2015-03-03T10:36:31Z JuanDaugherty: though it would be if you limited it to a specific market
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2015-03-03T10:57:19Z Ralt: hm
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2015-03-03T10:57:36Z Ralt: it seems alexandria uses a not-so-good way for the read-file-into-string function, according to http://www.ymeme.com/slurping-a-file-common-lisp-83.html
2015-03-03T10:58:09Z Ralt: (i.e. going through chunks of 4096 bytes instead of reading at once, by using (file-length stream))
2015-03-03T10:58:29Z Ralt: the project page says to report it here... well, there's the ML too, but the link is dead.
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2015-03-03T11:02:14Z splittist: Ralt: I think if you're looking for optimal performance for something so various as reading a file into a string you'd be looking for something other than Alexandria. Unless file-length is strictly better for all combinations of implementation, system and file size.
2015-03-03T11:04:33Z splittist: Ralt: Perhaps there's scope for the self-optimizing clurp library, that will detect the implementation, OS, media, file-system etc. and, given a hint about file size (bytes, kilobytes, megabytes, gigabytes, terabytes...) will produce the optimal outcome...
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2015-03-03T11:46:54Z pjb: Ralt: com.informatimago slurps in one go. cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream
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2015-03-03T12:10:07Z sol__: i get compilation error when doing (ql:quickload "log4slime"), it says "Package SWANK-BACKEND does not exist."
2015-03-03T12:10:21Z sol__: what is swank?
2015-03-03T12:10:42Z sol__: i though slime was like frontend wrapper around the lisp i use - what's the purpose of swank?
2015-03-03T12:10:49Z H4ns: swank is the backend side of slime
2015-03-03T12:10:51Z ggole: Swank is the CL side
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2015-03-03T12:11:07Z sol__: isn't the implementation the backend?
2015-03-03T12:11:16Z sol__: or slime talks to swank which talks to impl?
2015-03-03T12:11:25Z ggole: The latter
2015-03-03T12:11:34Z ggole: There's a socket protocol, etc
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2015-03-03T12:11:49Z ggole: And various wrappers around implementation specific facilities
2015-03-03T12:11:51Z sol__: so how come the package doesn't exist when i do infact use slime and it works
2015-03-03T12:12:19Z ggole: Good question
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2015-03-03T12:13:51Z ggole: How did you install slime?
2015-03-03T12:14:04Z sol__: through emacs package manager
2015-03-03T12:14:40Z sol__: weird now i see there are two slime packages, one is installed the other is not
2015-03-03T12:14:54Z ggole: My half-assed guess is that this doesn't play nice with ql, which ends up not seeing it
2015-03-03T12:15:08Z H4ns: i'd try (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2015-03-03T12:15:32Z sol__: 20150221.645 is not installed, 20140930.38 is installed
2015-03-03T12:15:46Z sol__: wth - why are there two packages anyways
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2015-03-03T12:17:18Z sol__: what does the helper do for me H4ns
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2015-03-03T12:17:45Z H4ns: sol__: it installs swank and slime through quicklisp.
2015-03-03T12:17:46Z Shinmera: The packages of swank/slime have been renamed recently
2015-03-03T12:17:52Z Shinmera: It's now swank/backend
2015-03-03T12:17:56Z Shinmera: so log4slime is outdated.
2015-03-03T12:18:31Z sol__: oh ok, any recommendations on good logging libs? or just quick patch log4slime?
2015-03-03T12:18:43Z H4ns: one good reason to use quicklisp is that the packages in quicklisp normally work together.
2015-03-03T12:19:01Z Shinmera: you can use log4cl, which is what log4slime uses iirc.
2015-03-03T12:19:02Z H4ns: if you pick your packages from various source, you're more likely to hit problems like these.
2015-03-03T12:19:23Z Shinmera: log4slime is just some fancy schmancy colouring and editor hinting for log4cl
2015-03-03T12:19:44Z Shinmera: Otherwise there's at least a billion logger frameworks out there, of which I made one too, called Verbose.
2015-03-03T12:19:50Z sol__: yea log4cl works, just though it would be nice to see pretty outputs
2015-03-03T12:20:10Z sol__: I'm looking for something that has support for "tags"
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2015-03-03T12:20:21Z Shinmera: What does that imply?
2015-03-03T12:20:24Z sol__: for example "network" "dht" "peers"
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2015-03-03T12:20:44Z Shinmera: Verbose supports category trees.
2015-03-03T12:20:46Z sol__: so when a logger writes a log statement it also provides the tags with which the log entry is associated with
2015-03-03T12:21:00Z sol__: Trees are less flexible than tags though
2015-03-03T12:21:12Z Shinmera: Yeah, but they're better for filtering.
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2015-03-03T12:21:52Z Shinmera: Verbose can potentially support tags, though it'd probably be a pain to add right now, as I never wrote it for things like that.
2015-03-03T12:21:58Z sol__: H4ns, i will try the helper - thanks for the tip
2015-03-03T12:22:10Z Shinmera: I'll add it to my list of improvements in the back of my head.
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2015-03-03T12:22:31Z sol__: haha i hope your head backend is less transient than mine is s:)
2015-03-03T12:22:48Z Shinmera: sol__: If your swank packages are already slash-separated then you have a recent slime. Getting an even more recent one through quicklisp won't help.
2015-03-03T12:23:06Z Shinmera: log4slime needs to be more recent, or it needs to be fixed.
2015-03-03T12:23:19Z sol__: ah, i thought that quicklisp one would be comptaible with log4slime
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2015-03-03T12:23:44Z sol__: but no matter, saved me the hassle. i guess ill keep reading the pink output as it is
2015-03-03T12:24:36Z sol__: okay i'll try downloading the log4cl repo maybe that'll work
2015-03-03T12:24:49Z Shinmera: iirc there were problems with log4cl being abandoned.
2015-03-03T12:24:58Z Shinmera: I don't recall if it was taken up by sharplispers though.
2015-03-03T12:25:09Z Shinmera: Might want to check that first.
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2015-03-03T12:27:30Z sol__: actually verbose looks good, i'll give it a go
2015-03-03T12:27:49Z Shinmera: sol__: Just fyi Verbose uses a generic piping and message system, so adding tags would be trivial. The annoying part is that the various logging helper functions aren't prepared for such additions yet.
2015-03-03T12:28:01Z Shinmera: so you can log with tags, but it'll look gross unless you write your own wrappers.
2015-03-03T12:28:18Z Shinmera: I'll think about it.
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2015-03-03T12:38:01Z Shinmera: I think I could extend the syntax to allow multiple categories/category-trees.
2015-03-03T12:38:14Z Shinmera: That would effectively allow tagging.
2015-03-03T12:38:36Z Shinmera: Bah, why do ideas and bugs only show up right after a quicklisp release
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2015-03-03T13:09:17Z Ralt: hm
2015-03-03T13:09:23Z Ralt: climacs doesn't seem very up-to-date...
2015-03-03T13:09:34Z pjb: How can you say so?
2015-03-03T13:09:44Z pjb: There has been no new standard since it was written!
2015-03-03T13:09:56Z Ralt: well, neither for emacs :P
2015-03-03T13:09:59Z pjb: How dare you say so?
2015-03-03T13:10:35Z pjb: Between emacs releases, there are two new C or C++ standard, and half a dozen new gcc versions!
2015-03-03T13:11:15Z Ralt: and between climacs releases, there are at least a couple of emacs releases!
2015-03-03T13:11:17Z Ralt: :P
2015-03-03T13:11:29Z pjb: But climacs is not implemented in emacs lisp so we don't care.
2015-03-03T13:11:56Z Ralt: aren't we common lisp evangelizers here? :-)
2015-03-03T13:12:22Z jackdaniel: evangelization through claiming stability, not features
2015-03-03T13:12:40Z jackdaniel: latter approach doesn't need evangelization, it's widely adopted
2015-03-03T13:13:00Z jackdaniel: stability above features*
2015-03-03T13:13:20Z jackdaniel: or before, my english sucks ;)
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2015-03-03T13:15:51Z pjb: Ralt: it is a very good thing that the language doesn't change, because since climacs has been issued, you haven't been very active improving it.  Therefore you should be happy that you don't have to rewrite everything because everything's changed.
2015-03-03T13:16:22Z pjb: Ralt: you can start a project know, have a life for ten years, and continue your project ten years later without a glitch, using CL.
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2015-03-03T13:16:31Z pjb: It's the only language that allows you to do that!
2015-03-03T13:17:08Z Ralt: the only language?
2015-03-03T13:17:09Z jackdaniel: except that non-portable stuff tends to change
2015-03-03T13:17:15Z Ralt: cobol does that too iirc :-)
2015-03-03T13:17:27Z jackdaniel: _°-°_
2015-03-03T13:17:32Z pjb: Ralt: yes.  Even cobol evolves a lot, with OO cobol, and variants for MS-DOS or unix.
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2015-03-03T13:18:04Z pjb: I had to update my cobol sources to make them run on opencobol!
2015-03-03T13:18:15Z pjb: And they're not that old, dating 1982.
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2015-03-03T13:18:45Z pjb: And they weren't even sophisticated or anything, just student little programs.
2015-03-03T13:19:14Z pjb: So if you can't compile a hello world-like program in cobol 30 years later, what's use is it?
2015-03-03T13:19:24Z pjb: http://longnow.org/
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2015-03-03T13:26:41Z pjb: Ralt: alexandria also fails to read files as bytes: try: (alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector "/proc/cpuinfo")
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2015-03-03T13:31:44Z Ralt: pjb: woot
2015-03-03T13:32:12Z Ralt: other files work fine. What's missing in my linux knowledge
2015-03-03T13:33:08Z pjb: That said com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum also has a difficulty when trying to read those "files" in binary.  It has a kludge only to read them as text.
2015-03-03T13:33:36Z pjb: There must be a little difference in the behavior of read(2) on those files that CL implementations don't cater for.
2015-03-03T13:34:32Z pjb: Oh, right, file-length returns 0 for them!
2015-03-03T13:35:22Z Ralt: alexandria doesn't use file-length
2015-03-03T13:38:21Z pjb: Yes, but read-sequence does, at least in some implementations.
2015-03-03T13:38:33Z pjb: I've pushed a correction to com.informatimago.
2015-03-03T13:38:58Z Ralt: can I see the patch?
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2015-03-03T13:40:35Z pjb: Ralt: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/f74942c61adf0ba2e5029fba111573231509947f:common-lisp/cesarum/stream.lisp#L109
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2015-03-03T13:51:00Z Ralt: pjb: oh, you're Pascal Bourguignon?
2015-03-03T13:51:17Z pjb: I am.
2015-03-03T13:51:40Z Ralt: ok
2015-03-03T13:52:26Z Ralt: maybe this should be pushed to alexandria too https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/commit/bf551302ec6dddaa7636d4de47c22766307f519c
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2015-03-03T13:52:58Z pjb: Well, there's some discord on whom to assign freedoms, so they'll have to implement their own solution…
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2015-03-03T13:53:34Z H4ns: Ralt: alexandria is public domain.
2015-03-03T13:56:04Z Ralt: H4ns: isn't there someone with git access?
2015-03-03T13:56:15Z Ralt: oh, you mean the license of the code
2015-03-03T13:56:31Z Ralt: not sure what it implies there.
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2015-03-03T13:56:56Z H4ns: Ralt: pjb's code is gpl, which is incompatible for inclusion in alexandria
2015-03-03T13:57:09Z pjb: AGPL3 even! :-)
2015-03-03T13:57:21Z Ralt: H4ns: well, I mean rewriting it. The fact that there is a bug means that it has to be fixed...
2015-03-03T13:57:34Z Ralt: however, if it means implementing the same kind of solution, is it an AGPL3 violation?
2015-03-03T13:57:45Z Ralt: I mean, it's <10 lines, there's not thousands of solutions...
2015-03-03T13:57:53Z moore33: The author has the freedom to decide on the license :)
2015-03-03T13:58:00Z pjb: They couldn't copy-and-paste GPL code without putting all the library under GPL.
2015-03-03T13:58:02Z H4ns: i'm not a laywer
2015-03-03T13:58:11Z moore33: fair use and all that
2015-03-03T13:58:58Z jackdaniel: gpl doesn't prohibit parallell development of trivial solutions, it prohibits reuse code in non-gpl code
2015-03-03T13:59:04Z pjb: Ralt: the problem is that each function is less than 10 line and there's not thousands of solutions under 10 lines for any function, so by this argument you could copy everything without recognizing the copyright.
2015-03-03T13:59:05Z jackdaniel: so you can fix it by yourself
2015-03-03T13:59:20Z Ralt: pjb: yeah...
2015-03-03T13:59:38Z pjb: Now, the GPL allows you to read the source, learn from  it, and implement your own solution.
2015-03-03T13:59:44Z jackdaniel: gpl doesn't patent alghoritms neither fixes
2015-03-03T13:59:50Z jackdaniel: that ↑
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2015-03-03T14:22:15Z Shinmera: sol__: Your wishes have been answered. https://github.com/Shinmera/verbose/commit/04011c840bdefb46049f39743dc4eaf31470fa21
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2015-03-03T14:37:08Z salv0: I have a function returning 2 values
2015-03-03T14:37:43Z salv0: It is being tail-called by another function
2015-03-03T14:38:04Z salv0: how can I make the second function pass-through the 2 values?
2015-03-03T14:38:17Z Shinmera: Just leave it at the tail.
2015-03-03T14:38:34Z Xach: salv0: multiple-value-call
2015-03-03T14:39:57Z Shinmera: I'm not sure I understand correctly anymore, but (defun foo () (values 0 1)) (defun bar () (foo)) (bar) => 0 1
2015-03-03T14:40:48Z salv0: oops... wait, it seems the problem is in the first function...
2015-03-03T14:41:49Z salv0: it was a pecbak, sorry for the noise
2015-03-03T14:42:09Z moore33: Hmm, I'm curious if multiple-value-call will be tail-call optimized.
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2015-03-03T14:43:18Z moore33: Actually, I think I'm just confused:)
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2015-03-03T14:48:10Z oleo: is there an algo for converting non-tail to tail-optimized one ?
2015-03-03T14:48:19Z oleo: i read there is but....
2015-03-03T14:48:27Z oleo: how to do it the meta way ....
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2015-03-03T14:48:42Z oleo: i mean via macrology
2015-03-03T14:49:02Z oleo: welp, that will be implementation specific too ofc....
2015-03-03T14:49:45Z oleo: turning stuff inside-out is heavy...
2015-03-03T14:51:49Z sol__: Shinmera, awesome :)
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2015-03-03T14:52:46Z jackdaniel: oleo: well, do macro is like syntactic sugar for tail-recursive blocks
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2015-03-03T14:53:50Z oleo: well i have problems too sometimes figuring out how to write stuff in a tail-optimize allowing way....
2015-03-03T14:54:35Z oleo: i pretty early end up dealing with stack overflows most of the time....
2015-03-03T14:54:47Z oleo: especially when the data i feed them is big....
2015-03-03T14:55:58Z Ralt: is there a way to check if sbcl does the TCO? (disassemble)?
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2015-03-03T14:57:10Z jackdaniel: ralt - (defun xxx () (xxx)) ; if it stack overflows, then it doesn't ;]
2015-03-03T14:57:17Z jackdaniel: but it does
2015-03-03T14:57:19Z oleo: only in some optimization level....
2015-03-03T14:57:27Z oleo: it does
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2015-03-03T14:58:02Z jackdaniel: on the other hand (defun yyy () (1+ (yyy))) overflows the stack
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2015-03-03T14:58:22Z Shinmera: http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html
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2015-03-03T15:02:10Z moore33: jackdaniel: That's not a tail-call, but I suspect that you know that :)
2015-03-03T15:02:25Z jackdaniel: second one? yes, it's example of non-tail call
2015-03-03T15:02:50Z jackdaniel: which overflows stack on sbcl - to show difference
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2015-03-03T15:03:21Z pjb: (defun zzz (sum)  (zzz (1+ sum))) on the other hand…
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2015-03-03T15:14:23Z nell: wait, is that THE jackdaniel ?
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2015-03-03T15:15:20Z eudoxia: the jack daniels of the restorative tonic? probably not
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2015-03-03T15:16:02Z nell: no like the blacksmithing white bearded jack daniel infosec guru
2015-03-03T15:16:31Z eudoxia: oh
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2015-03-03T15:20:56Z jackdaniel: nah
2015-03-03T15:21:01Z jackdaniel is a humble me
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2015-03-03T15:22:41Z moore33: THE jackdaniel ECL maintainer, no?
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2015-03-03T15:23:16Z jackdaniel: yes, but not infosec guru
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2015-03-03T15:23:43Z Xach: the former is cooler
2015-03-03T15:23:46Z moore33: jackdaniel: I don't really use ECL, but I'm sure happy it runs on Android and can support Maxima!
2015-03-03T15:26:22Z jackdaniel: Xach: but I'm working on beard :p
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2015-03-03T15:30:22Z Shinmera: I asked earlier this morning, but I guess not enough people were even up: I'm playing with the thought of attending ELS, but I need to know of the costs involved first. I'm quite sure there's a registration fee, but I can't find anywhere how much that would be. Can someone tell me from previous years how much I would have to anticipate spending?
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2015-03-03T15:30:53Z Shinmera: Outside of the flight and accommodation I mean.
2015-03-03T15:31:36Z jackdaniel: somebody told me it was like 120 euro if i remember correctly (but never been there previously, and my memory may be faoulty)
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2015-03-03T15:35:06Z Shinmera: If that is about accurate and these other sites aren't lying to me I guess I'll have to count with about 400-500Chf in total. While not tremendously much, still quite a stack of money.
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2015-03-03T15:36:16Z splittist: In 2011 it was EUR100 for real people and EUR60 for students. I would expect it's not much different.
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2015-03-03T15:36:40Z Shinmera: "real people" :)
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2015-03-03T15:38:00Z splittist: Shinmera: does EasyJet and a hotel in the ghetto^W area near Goldsmiths add up to that much?
2015-03-03T15:38:38Z Shinmera: Flights seem to cost around 100-200 Chf, a hotel about the same for two nights it seems. Though I've only checked one site so far and will have to look further.
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2015-03-03T15:42:38Z Xof: I think it is likely to be €120 for grownups this year
2015-03-03T15:43:15Z Xof: (as it was last year)
2015-03-03T15:44:22Z Xof: if you believe in airbnb you can probably do better than the hotel rates
2015-03-03T15:44:47Z jdz: i actually live in the ghetto^w Goldsmiths area
2015-03-03T15:44:50Z Xof: of course your CHF buy you way more than they did this time last year :-/
2015-03-03T15:44:59Z Xof: party at jdz's!
2015-03-03T15:45:16Z Shinmera: They still buy me just as little where I live though :\
2015-03-03T15:45:17Z jackdaniel: (incf *)
2015-03-03T15:45:22Z jdz: that escalated fast
2015-03-03T15:46:08Z moore33: Shinmera: Buy stuff from France, Germany, Italy...
2015-03-03T15:46:30Z moore33: ... Greece ...
2015-03-03T15:46:37Z Xof: it costs you 10% less to go to ELS2015 than it would have done to go to ELS2015
2015-03-03T15:46:38Z Xof: erm
2015-03-03T15:46:40Z Xof: 2014
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2015-03-03T15:46:47Z Shinmera: moore33: I don't want to travel for hours and pay an expensive train ticked just to buy some groceries.
2015-03-03T15:47:00Z splittist: steal a car1
2015-03-03T15:47:13Z jdz: or car2
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2015-03-03T15:47:16Z Shinmera: Slavery is banned here, sadly
2015-03-03T15:47:25Z moore33: Shinmera: I do understand.
2015-03-03T15:47:35Z splittist: That would have been better as 'You're a lisper: use CAR'
2015-03-03T15:48:17Z Shinmera: Aanyway. Meeting fellow lispers in person is a quite exciting prospect and I'm seriously considering it.
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2015-03-03T15:50:06Z Xach is booking a flight + hotel today
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2015-03-03T15:51:50Z Xof: yay
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2015-03-03T15:52:20Z Shinmera: I think I can get the necessary money in by doing a webdesign project for a client on the side.
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2015-03-03T15:53:38Z Shinmera: In CL, no less! :)
2015-03-03T15:55:25Z badkins_ is now known as badkins
2015-03-03T15:55:36Z Ralt: Shinmera: hire me
2015-03-03T15:55:45Z Ralt: :P
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2015-03-03T16:08:55Z drmeister: The flights for ELS suck.
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2015-03-03T16:09:46Z drmeister: Redeye flying in to LHR - bleh
2015-03-03T16:12:37Z Xach: i'm taking a tramp steamer
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2015-03-03T16:12:47Z drmeister: What is that?
2015-03-03T16:13:06Z drmeister: Ah
2015-03-03T16:13:09Z drmeister: Never mind
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2015-03-03T16:13:29Z drmeister: What time will it end on Tuesday?
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2015-03-03T16:13:40Z moore33: Xach: Don't mind the list!
2015-03-03T16:13:50Z drmeister: I'm figuring it will run 9:00am to 5:00pm both days?
2015-03-03T16:14:22Z Xach doesn't get the reference :~(
2015-03-03T16:14:45Z moore33: Xach: Steamers can list to one side, sometimes dangerously.
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2015-03-03T16:15:13Z moore33: Xach: Don't you live in Maine? :)
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2015-03-03T16:16:43Z Xach: this will be my first steamship trip
2015-03-03T16:17:05Z moore33: Xach: Oh, wow, you are really taking a steamship... cool.
2015-03-03T16:17:34Z moore33: Enough with the stupid comments then.
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2015-03-03T16:18:22Z H4ns: Xach: seriously?  how long does it take?
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2015-03-03T16:18:47Z Xach: Ok, sorry, I am not taking a tramp steamer, I am taking an airplane ride.
2015-03-03T16:18:59Z moore33: STFU :)
2015-03-03T16:19:04Z H4ns: i'd to the ship thing if i had the 11 days.
2015-03-03T16:19:08Z H4ns: do even
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2015-03-03T16:26:52Z splittist: Isn't there usually a dinner on the Tuesday night? Or is that on the Monday night?
2015-03-03T16:28:06Z splittist: It was on a boat in Paris. It did not list.
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2015-03-03T16:47:01Z Shinmera: Looks like the 60€ for students was correct. http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/content-registration-full.html
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2015-03-03T17:02:47Z Xof: I am tentatively planning the dinner for the Monday night this time
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2015-03-03T17:05:19Z Shinmera: Regarding that, what are the limitations on the "Food requirements" field?
2015-03-03T17:05:36Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what I can put or expect.
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2015-03-03T17:07:40Z jdz: i was tempted to enter "yes, please, a lot of it"
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2015-03-03T17:14:34Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-03-03T17:14:34Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: actually, you could store only the AST in the fasl file, and have your loader generate the native code only upon loading, which would give you fasl files that can be distributed to different targets.
2015-03-03T17:15:05Z Shinmera: Good evening, beach.
2015-03-03T17:15:27Z beach: Shinmera: I see you have decided to go to ELS.  That's great!
2015-03-03T17:15:42Z Shinmera: Not quite yet, but most likely.
2015-03-03T17:15:52Z Shinmera: I want to sleep on it at least.
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2015-03-03T17:16:20Z beach: As people pointed out, CHF jumped by a large percentage recently.
2015-03-03T17:16:35Z jasom: CHF?
2015-03-03T17:17:02Z Shinmera: Swiss currency
2015-03-03T17:17:41Z jasom: ah
2015-03-03T17:17:52Z Shinmera: Confoederatio Helvetica Francs or something.
2015-03-03T17:18:06Z beach: Oh, nice!
2015-03-03T17:18:22Z linux_dream: i thought swiss money was either gold or chocolate
2015-03-03T17:18:26Z jasom: I've never been to Switzerland
2015-03-03T17:18:32Z Shinmera: linux_dream: Might as well be
2015-03-03T17:18:47Z Shinmera: It's expensive.
2015-03-03T17:19:04Z jasom: I just have met people from there that speak a language they *call* Deutch, but nearly unintelligable to me.
2015-03-03T17:19:21Z beach: pjb: ASTs aren't necessarily implementation independent, because macros expand differently on different implementations.  But it is a good idea nevertheless.
2015-03-03T17:19:37Z Shinmera: It's Swiss German and I'd categorise it as its own thing because it's too far detached to be a dialect of German. Though we all can speak German as well.
2015-03-03T17:19:40Z jasom: s/Deutch/Deustch
2015-03-03T17:19:55Z jasom: s/Deustch/Deutsch
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2015-03-03T17:20:02Z Shinmera: That is, the German/northern part of Switzerland.
2015-03-03T17:20:03Z jasom: the "s" is not liking me today
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2015-03-03T17:20:49Z jasom: I think I type to hard with my ring finger, as the s key is always the first one to wear out on my keyboards
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2015-03-03T17:23:26Z jasom: Yeah, The Swiss and the Netherlanders seem to be able speak a lot of languages.
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2015-03-03T17:24:40Z Shinmera: Let's say, we're supposed to be able to.
2015-03-03T17:25:25Z beach: drmeister: I suggest you stay over night until Wednesday.  There is often some dinner or similar on Tuesday night.
2015-03-03T17:27:23Z beach: Shinmera: Last time I was visiting Goldsmith, I stayed in a student dorm room.  It was fine for a few nights.  If you are strapped for cash, you might want to investigate that possibility.
2015-03-03T17:29:06Z Shinmera: I'm not, I just don't like spending stacks of money.
2015-03-03T17:29:59Z beach: Then you should definitely go. :)
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2015-03-03T17:37:09Z drmeister: beach: I think that is what I'll do.   The best flight I can find puts me into London Heathrow at 6:30am Monday morning.  I've never been to London before and the train directions to the ELS site involve four trains.  I'm fine with trains - but do you anticipate any problems with that kind of schedule.
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2015-03-03T17:38:38Z Xach is going a day ahead to settle in
2015-03-03T17:39:21Z drmeister: Then I'll fly out on Wednesday morning at 10:30 am.
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2015-03-03T17:40:05Z Xach: Yay, commonqt's dvcs host is shutting down soon.
2015-03-03T17:40:24Z Xach: (that is a false yay)
2015-03-03T17:40:31Z jasom was about to ask
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2015-03-03T17:40:48Z Shinmera: Xach: fear not, there's already a mirror. https://github.com/stassats/commonqt
2015-03-03T17:41:32Z Xach: https://about.gitlab.com/2015/03/03/gitlab-acquires-gitorious/ is what prompted the false yaying
2015-03-03T17:41:45Z Bicyclidine: does the shut down notice have a typo in its title...?
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2015-03-03T18:37:58Z H4ns: drmeister: you'll have no trouble with the public transport in london
2015-03-03T18:38:07Z H4ns: drmeister: take the tube, done.
2015-03-03T18:38:22Z H4ns: (speaking as a satisfied recent user)
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2015-03-03T18:40:46Z jackdaniel goes with his fiance at friday - never was in London
2015-03-03T18:40:52Z jackdaniel: s/at/on/
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2015-03-03T18:41:32Z ktt9`: hello #lisp
2015-03-03T18:41:49Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-03-03T18:42:34Z Xach: jackdaniel: see if you can wait until ELS instead
2015-03-03T18:42:57Z beach: drmeister: I can't tell.  I don't know Lindon that well.
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2015-03-03T18:43:30Z beach: drmeister: We have a direct flight from Bordeaux to Gatwick which I think has better connections to the site.
2015-03-03T18:43:53Z jackdaniel: Xach: friday before ELS, and I'm untill wednesday
2015-03-03T18:44:22Z beach: Hello ktt9`.
2015-03-03T18:44:42Z Xach: jackdaniel: ah, ok
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2015-03-03T18:45:38Z beach: drmeister: But you will be completely wasted because of the jet lag.  Going this direction is the worst.
2015-03-03T18:46:21Z pjb: Easy, go the other way! I hear Japan is nice this time of the year.
2015-03-03T18:47:44Z jackdaniel: what should I answer in affiliation field (?)
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2015-03-03T18:48:07Z pjb: your university or company or freelance.
2015-03-03T18:48:08Z ktt9`: i was doing a CFFI tutorial (featuring libcurl), and found some interesting piece of code. Here it is: https://github.com/taptap/studing-lisp/blob/master/cffi-test/test.lisp#L130 When compiling, a note is generated, with following contents: "The second argument (in keyword position) is not a constant, weakening keyword", and that's understandible, since foreign-string-to-lisp defined as
2015-03-03T18:48:08Z ktt9`: https://gist.github.com/taptap/71b5226168159c69cbde Code compiles, loads and executes without any problem. But the second argument is never a keyword, it's an integer. What kind of dark wizardry is this?
2015-03-03T18:48:49Z jackdaniel: pjb: thanks
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2015-03-03T18:50:10Z Xach: ktt9`: in my cffi, the lambda-list of foreign-string-to-lisp is (pointer &key ...)
2015-03-03T18:50:34Z adlai: ktt9`: you can pass any object for keyword position, but if it's an integer and all the keywords are symbols, none will batch
2015-03-03T18:50:35Z Xach: ktt9`: it looks like you are passing values rather than keyword/value pairs
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2015-03-03T18:51:07Z adlai: the code will run but keyword parameters will get default values and your values will be silently ignored
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2015-03-03T18:52:20Z Xach: ktt9`: oh, sorry. i got confused.
2015-03-03T18:52:28Z Xach: adlai is giving better advice
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2015-03-03T18:56:30Z ktt9`: hmmm. But when I try to reproduce this behaviour in repl, code compiles but generates run-time error, saying "unknown $KEY argument: <second argument passed to function>"
2015-03-03T18:57:34Z ktt9`: Like this. https://gist.github.com/taptap/d27e3d8ed1f51473545e Where does this code differs from CFFI case? I just cannot grasp.
2015-03-03T18:57:58Z Bicyclidine: ktt9`: it's trying to interpret 3 as a key.
2015-03-03T18:58:08Z Bicyclidine: since foo only takes one non-key argument.
2015-03-03T18:58:49Z ktt9`: but so does CFFIs foreign-sting-to-lisp
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2015-03-03T19:01:06Z Bicyclidine: okay, that is mysterious.
2015-03-03T19:01:46Z Bicyclidine: Does that actually work? Or just always return 0?
2015-03-03T19:02:53Z ktt9`: yeah, it works
2015-03-03T19:05:05Z jasom: passing non-keywords in keyword position isn't conforming, so you may see different behaviors on different lisps
2015-03-03T19:06:05Z Bicyclidine: clhs 3.5.1.5
2015-03-03T19:06:05Z specbot: Invalid Keyword Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eae.htm
2015-03-03T19:06:20Z Bicyclidine: as far as i'm reading this, if you put in a declare safety 3 it'll declare an error, and right now it's doing... something
2015-03-03T19:06:27Z Bicyclidine: the code is wrong as far as i can tell, anyway
2015-03-03T19:06:50Z jasom: Bicyclidine: it's silent on what happens if you suppress keyword argument checking and it's a safe call
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2015-03-03T19:07:12Z jasom: which always bothered me
2015-03-03T19:07:26Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's ok to use non-keyword symbols
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2015-03-03T19:08:09Z jasom: right s/non-keywords/non-symbols/ for what I said earlyer
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2015-03-03T19:09:48Z ktt9`: oh. so, it's implementation-dependent? Maybe CFFI interface have changed since the tutorial've benn published?
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2015-03-03T19:14:41Z ktt9`: also thank you
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2015-03-03T19:21:12Z jackdaniel: oh
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2015-03-03T19:33:06Z adlai: ktt9`: could also be a bug in the tutorial; either way, i'm sure the author would appreciate a fix :)
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2015-03-03T19:35:27Z ktt9`: adlai: okay, it seems so c:
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2015-03-03T20:14:49Z shka: hi
2015-03-03T20:14:53Z shka: quick question
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2015-03-03T20:15:18Z shka: is it completly safe to call the very same defgeneric multiple times?
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2015-03-03T20:18:42Z pjb: shka: no.  You can call a same defgeneric only 3 times.  After that, it explodes.
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2015-03-03T20:19:25Z pjb: Otherwise, it may signal a warning condition, about redefining stuff.
2015-03-03T20:19:29Z shka: pjb: great, i will use it as a weapon
2015-03-03T20:19:39Z shka: ok
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2015-03-03T20:20:14Z shka: but i can check if it is already defined in my macro so this question was pretty stupid anyway
2015-03-03T20:20:58Z jasom: One of these days I'm going to remember to *not* close over a loop variable.
2015-03-03T20:23:14Z jasom: clhs ensure-generic-function
2015-03-03T20:23:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensure.htm
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2015-03-03T20:40:31Z jackdaniel: this gitorious acquireance is at least annoying :|
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2015-03-03T20:49:58Z Ralt: oh ffs
2015-03-03T20:50:51Z Ralt: Shinmera: for the record... I just lost a couple of hours on this. (define-subwdiget (aeon block-button) (q+:make-qpushbutton "Block" aeon)) got me the error "block-button is unbound"
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2015-03-03T20:54:06Z Ralt: I wonder if there's a way to get better errors...
2015-03-03T20:54:11Z Shinmera: Ralt: Is that on the QL release?
2015-03-03T20:54:24Z Shinmera: If not you need to pull.
2015-03-03T20:54:30Z Shinmera: And update quicklisp, potentially.
2015-03-03T20:54:37Z Ralt: no, it's github build from a couple days ago.
2015-03-03T20:54:44Z Shinmera: Yeah, that's outdated then.
2015-03-03T20:55:00Z Ralt: and the "error" is define-subwdiget instead of define-subwdiget.
2015-03-03T20:55:07Z Ralt: define-subwidget*
2015-03-03T20:55:32Z Shinmera: The bug you're experiencing is related to a change in form-fiddle, which cuts out the first form of the body in the destructuring of the definition.
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2015-03-03T20:55:55Z Shinmera: Latest sources of both should work though.
2015-03-03T20:56:02Z Ralt: Shinmera: no, I get the same error in latest master
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2015-03-03T20:56:18Z Ralt: the typo makes a very unhelpful error
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2015-03-03T20:56:56Z Shinmera: You've lost me
2015-03-03T20:57:12Z Ralt: the problem is there: I wrote define-subwdiget instead of define-subwidget
2015-03-03T20:57:27Z Ralt: notice the "id" of "widget"
2015-03-03T20:57:30Z Shinmera: Ok
2015-03-03T20:57:38Z Ralt: you didn't see it after reading it three times :P
2015-03-03T20:57:44Z Shinmera: I did see it
2015-03-03T20:57:48Z Ralt: I'm not sure it's possible to have better errors though
2015-03-03T20:57:56Z Shinmera: but your first message was so similar to an actual bug I experienced that I got really confused
2015-03-03T20:58:02Z Ralt: ah
2015-03-03T20:58:21Z Ralt: no it's just a typo, but then sbcl gives a somehow-unrelated error
2015-03-03T20:58:38Z Ralt: I was wondering if it's possible to improve the error reporting
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2015-03-03T20:58:58Z Shinmera: That particular bug caused me half an hour of frustration. Though it was about the widget slot being unbound even though it should've been bound. As I said, caused by a change in form-fiddle that I didn't follow through on Qtools. Should be fine on latest though.
2015-03-03T20:59:54Z Shinmera: The error can't very well be improved. After all, since define-subwdiget isn't a macro, things get evaluated in standard function order, meaning "block-button" is the first thing that gets evaluated, and as a variable.
2015-03-03T21:00:04Z Ralt: yeah :/
2015-03-03T21:01:47Z Ralt: oh well. You know, it's the kind of typo you don't notice because you look too much at the code...
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2015-03-03T21:01:59Z Ralt: at least I found it now.
2015-03-03T21:02:18Z Shinmera: And at least it isn't an actual bug that would be sitting in the release for a month now.
2015-03-03T21:02:38Z Ralt: :)
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2015-03-03T21:09:19Z todoparaelbano: :)
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