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2015-03-02T00:06:28Z csziacobus: do the html manual and internals pages for sbcl ever update?
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2015-03-02T00:13:46Z antoszka: csziacobus: try #sbcl for such details :)
2015-03-02T00:14:00Z csziacobus: good idea
2015-03-02T00:14:06Z Xach: I think the manual is regularly updated
2015-03-02T00:14:10Z Xach: I don't know about the wiki
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2015-03-02T00:16:45Z Bike: i think the internals wiki is pretty dead, and the internals manual is only updated when someone feels like it. the manual goes much faster.
2015-03-02T00:16:45Z antoszka: But yeah, I too think the manual is being kept up-to-date.
2015-03-02T00:16:50Z Bike: the non-internals manual i mean.
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2015-03-02T02:27:26Z Xach: so many new failures
2015-03-02T02:29:46Z nyef: Xach: ... Given that I just committed a change to SBCL's compiler, you're worrying me. d-:
2015-03-02T02:29:58Z Xach: nyef: mostly little things, i think.
2015-03-02T02:30:02Z Xach: and all in libraries, not in sbcl
2015-03-02T02:30:16Z nyef: But could be triggered by a change to SBCL?
2015-03-02T02:33:06Z Xach: don't think so
2015-03-02T02:33:21Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-03-01/failure-report.html
2015-03-02T02:33:50Z Xach: pjb's failures seem mocl-related
2015-03-02T02:34:03Z Xach: much of the rest is a change in defconstant policy on my end
2015-03-02T02:34:09Z Xach: (i was sweeping those errors under the rug)
2015-03-02T02:35:38Z nyef: Hrm... And my changes were in 1.2.9.x. Okay, that's my mind relieved, at least. Thanks. (-:
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2015-03-02T03:09:54Z csziacobus: weird. apparently (eq (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(integer 0 2353))
2015-03-02T03:09:56Z csziacobus:              (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(mod 2354))) evals to nil...
2015-03-02T03:10:30Z nyef: csziacobus: Yes, there's a separate equality predicate.
2015-03-02T03:11:21Z csziacobus: couldn't this just use the same value instead of consing an equivalent one?
2015-03-02T03:11:55Z csziacobus: since it looks like its caching them already
2015-03-02T03:12:22Z nyef: Given the unportability of weak hash tables, please come up with a suitable method that would work at cross-compile time.
2015-03-02T03:13:32Z csziacobus: oh, that makes sense
2015-03-02T03:16:36Z csziacobus: wait, i thought the problem was of the equailty predicate used, raegardless of a weak hash table being used
2015-03-02T03:16:54Z nyef: You wanted EQ to work, didn't you?
2015-03-02T03:17:12Z csziacobus: yea, but (eq (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(integer 0 2353))
2015-03-02T03:17:14Z csziacobus:              (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(integer 0 2353)))
2015-03-02T03:17:16Z csziacobus: evals to t
2015-03-02T03:17:40Z nyef: Probably getting cached on the specifier.
2015-03-02T03:18:23Z csziacobus: right, but those specifiers specify the same type
2015-03-02T03:19:00Z nyef: But they're different specifiers.
2015-03-02T03:19:34Z csziacobus: how? (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(integer 0 2353)) returns #<SB-KERNEL:NUMERIC-TYPE (MOD 2354)>
2015-03-02T03:20:04Z nyef: The specifier is the input parameter to SPECIFIER-TYPE.
2015-03-02T03:20:14Z csziacobus: ah, ok
2015-03-02T03:21:34Z csziacobus: so the specifiers are hashed before they're canonoicalized
2015-03-02T03:22:10Z nyef: Feel free to dig into the gory details of the implementation.
2015-03-02T03:22:42Z csziacobus: meta pointing my way through
2015-03-02T03:28:50Z loke: Why is maintaining the package local-time?
2015-03-02T03:28:58Z loke: I mean "who"
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2015-03-02T03:45:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-03-02T03:46:39Z Quadrescence: aloha
2015-03-02T03:47:17Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-03-02T03:47:31Z beach: Quadrescence: I am almost done re-implementing my bit-reversal algorithm.
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2015-03-02T03:47:44Z beach: I was just very busy yesterday.
2015-03-02T03:47:56Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-03-02T03:48:30Z Quadrescence: beach, ah! I didn't think you'd do it so rapidly
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2015-03-02T03:48:58Z beach: It's not hard.  I just have to remember (or rather re-discover) the details.
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2015-03-02T03:50:49Z nyef: beach: I'm finally at the point of trying to figure out where I was with NQ-CLIM.
2015-03-02T03:51:20Z beach: Oh, excellent!
2015-03-02T03:52:41Z Quadrescence: beach, if you write the algorithm, can I re-reimplement it and write about it on a BLOG
2015-03-02T03:53:00Z beach: Quadrescence: Deal!
2015-03-02T03:53:22Z beach: I need to create *some* implementation though.   Just to test the thing.
2015-03-02T03:53:28Z Quadrescence: yes of course
2015-03-02T03:53:41Z beach: I'll probably write it in Common Lisp.  The real one pretty much *has* to be written in assembler.
2015-03-02T03:54:22Z Quadrescence: I hope your implementation is not (map 'vector #'revbin (loop :for i :below most-positive-fixnum :collect i))
2015-03-02T03:54:35Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-03-02T03:54:54Z beach: I can assure you it is not.
2015-03-02T03:54:57Z Quadrescence: :)
2015-03-02T03:55:17Z Quadrescence: beach, can you write it in C so I can write it in Lisp?
2015-03-02T03:55:18Z beach: For one thing, it is recursive.
2015-03-02T03:55:27Z Quadrescence: You can't have all the fun; you got that chance the first time around!
2015-03-02T03:55:48Z beach: It can't be written in C, though maybe GCC has an extension for it.
2015-03-02T03:55:57Z beach: The language must have nested functions.
2015-03-02T03:56:18Z Quadrescence: ah
2015-03-02T03:56:31Z beach: I am telling you.  You really want it to be in assembler.
2015-03-02T03:56:51Z beach: But, perhaps the SBCL compiler is good enough.  That's a good point.
2015-03-02T03:57:33Z beach: OK, I'll let you write the final version, and I will give you a different one and then tell you how to obtain the final one.   How about that?
2015-03-02T03:58:09Z Quadrescence: Sounds good!
2015-03-02T03:58:30Z Quadrescence: it will be the cherry on top of these number theoretic transforms
2015-03-02T04:00:38Z beach: Anne told me at some point she had a better one yet, but I wasn't interested enough to get the details.  It may or may not be true, because I don't think I ever gave her the assembler implementation of mine.
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2015-03-02T05:08:01Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-03-02T05:11:58Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-03-02T05:12:31Z drmeister: Hey beach - I guess you saw my email about the timing comparison.
2015-03-02T05:12:42Z beach: I did.  Thanks for letting me know.
2015-03-02T05:13:53Z drmeister: Ok - I didn't have anything else to say at the moment.  I'm still working on argument processing.
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2015-03-02T05:14:47Z beach: Good plan.  Do you also have a better number on the overall performance of pre-Cleavir Clasp?
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2015-03-02T05:17:17Z drmeister: Here's what I get right now:
2015-03-02T05:17:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SxjOH2cB
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2015-03-02T05:18:12Z drmeister: Here's the code
2015-03-02T05:18:13Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146033
2015-03-02T05:18:17Z beach: That's not what I meant.  I meant the number that used to be X times slower than SBCL.  No Cleavir involved.
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2015-03-02T05:21:31Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure that's still the same.
2015-03-02T05:21:59Z beach: That is impossible.
2015-03-02T05:22:34Z drmeister: SBCL executes this code in 0.008 seconds.
2015-03-02T05:22:37Z drmeister: That's 500x
2015-03-02T05:23:07Z drmeister: SBCL is linear.  When I increase the times by 10 and 100 it takes 10 and 100x longer.
2015-03-02T05:23:19Z drmeister: What's impossible about it?
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2015-03-02T05:25:33Z drmeister: I'm coming around to your way of thinking.  It's probably due to a lack of inlining as much as it is due to working with bindings on the stack vs heap.
2015-03-02T05:27:24Z beach: SBCL performance X.  Clasp interpreted Y = X/100 (or so, as reported before).  Cleavir/Clasp (as reported before) Z = 10Y = X/10.  Clasp now (as you say) still Y.  Cleavir/Clasp now 1.2*Y.  Doesn't work.
2015-03-02T05:27:52Z beach: But it doesn't matter I guess.
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2015-03-02T05:28:48Z drmeister: There wasn't much interpreted code running at all before I found this bug.  It was just when you typed a DEFUN into the REPL or LOADed code into the REPL.  Everything else is COMPILE-FILE'd and that compiles everything.
2015-03-02T05:29:08Z drmeister: It just happened that the test I ran I used DEFUN to define the Clasp function.
2015-03-02T05:29:12Z beach: I see.
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2015-03-02T05:29:44Z beach: So when you said before something like "Maybe Clasp isn't so slow compared to sBCL after all"  that wasn't true?
2015-03-02T05:29:45Z drmeister: Yeah - it's not a big deal for Clasp.   I fixed the bug and recompiled everything - I don't notice a difference in performance and I shouldn't.
2015-03-02T05:29:48Z Oladon: I'm having a really hard time with Weblocks flows, and hoping someone can help me. I've read a bunch of old mailing list posts, and I'm just not getting it. Code is here: http://pastebin.com/9H4zN7g3 -- on pageload, the difficulty choice appears. After you select a difficulty, the initial list of options from make-main-page is offered, and after you click one of those the whole page goes blank. I'm sure I'm just doing something wrong, but 
2015-03-02T05:29:57Z drmeister: That was wrong.
2015-03-02T05:29:58Z beach: drmeister: Got it.
2015-03-02T05:30:20Z drmeister: At that moment I thought everything was interpreted - but I thought it through and did some tests.
2015-03-02T05:30:37Z beach: drmeister: So what is still true is "don't expect any performance improvements immediately."
2015-03-02T05:30:49Z drmeister: the FUNCTION special operator in COMPILE-FILE and COMPILE compiles its lambda.
2015-03-02T05:30:53Z beach: drmeister: I think I understand now.
2015-03-02T05:31:12Z drmeister: Right - it was just a goofy thing about DEFUN - I inherited it from ECL.
2015-03-02T05:31:31Z drmeister: ECL has a relatively fast byte compiler and a faster CL->C compiler.
2015-03-02T05:31:48Z drmeister: If you type DEFUN at the REPL you get the byte compiler.
2015-03-02T05:32:04Z drmeister: My equivalent to the byte compiler is my slow S-expression walking interpreter.
2015-03-02T05:32:26Z drmeister: ECL does that I guess because calling out to the C compiler is a pain in the backside.
2015-03-02T05:32:27Z beach: That explains the string comparison I observed.
2015-03-02T05:33:10Z drmeister: I don't know, the interpreter shouldn't do a lot of (any) string comparisons.
2015-03-02T05:33:30Z drmeister: I'm still going to try and replicate that.  I want to get the argument processing working and try some other timing tests.
2015-03-02T05:33:42Z drmeister: Tight numerical loops are going to test very little of Clasp.
2015-03-02T05:33:52Z beach: Sure.
2015-03-02T05:33:54Z beach: drmeister: I need to vanish for a while.  Monday mornings are a bit crazy here.  I'll be back in around 30 minutes.
2015-03-02T05:34:10Z Zhivago: It's probably also to avoid generating a zillion one function shared libraries.
2015-03-02T05:34:11Z drmeister: No problem. I was just checking in.
2015-03-02T05:34:59Z drmeister: Zhivago: Probably.
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2015-03-02T05:35:41Z drmeister: I'm glad I found it, but it wasn't the source of my Clasp's poor performance.
2015-03-02T05:36:07Z drmeister: That still remains to be identified.  I'm pretty sure though that its a lack of inlining and overuse of closures.
2015-03-02T05:36:54Z drmeister: Cleavir can fix both of those things.
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2015-03-02T05:46:47Z loke: drmeister: I think 500x performance difference is much too large to be attributed to overuse of closures?
2015-03-02T05:47:16Z drmeister: And lack of inlining?
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2015-03-02T05:51:46Z drmeister: Oh and not using immediate FIXNUMs
2015-03-02T05:54:08Z drmeister: I'm doing what beach did using my little timing test above and running Clasp in the lldb debugger
2015-03-02T05:54:29Z drmeister: I'm not seeing string comparisons in the backtrace.
2015-03-02T05:54:50Z drmeister: I see lexical variable lookups in closures, and calls to "+" and "<"
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2015-03-02T05:59:13Z beach: drmeister: String comparison was only in the Boehm GC version.
2015-03-02T05:59:31Z drmeister: Yeah - that's what I'm running.
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2015-03-02T06:00:29Z beach: If you want to delay introducing true fixnums, you might want to design a different benchmark, say one that traverses a list.
2015-03-02T06:00:53Z beach: Then, inlining will have an immediate effect.
2015-03-02T06:02:27Z beach: Whereas if your performance is dominated by calls to foreign arithmetic functions, then inlining will have little effect.
2015-03-02T06:03:00Z beach: But maybe LLVM can inline those arithmetic functions?
2015-03-02T06:03:07Z pjb: -
2015-03-02T06:04:32Z drmeister: beach: How would I generate a benchmark to traverse a list?
2015-03-02T06:04:43Z drmeister: I'd need to generate a really long list and then traverse it?
2015-03-02T06:05:04Z beach: I suppose, yes.
2015-03-02T06:05:14Z drmeister: Let's give that a woil
2015-03-02T06:05:36Z Zhivago: You might want to use a circular list of size one to avoid cache issues.
2015-03-02T06:05:37Z beach: Make sure you don't count the elements, because that implies arithmetic operations. :)
2015-03-02T06:06:02Z beach: Zhivago: But that would involve counting in order to terminate the loop.
2015-03-02T06:06:17Z drmeister: It will probably take longer to generate the list than to traverse it.
2015-03-02T06:06:32Z beach: drmeister: You don't time the generation of it.
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2015-03-02T06:07:34Z Zhivago: You don't actually need a list -- just list operations.
2015-03-02T06:07:45Z Zhivago: So you could generate a function with N cdrs in it.
2015-03-02T06:09:25Z beach: That might not work.  You would need so many of them that the compiler might not finish compiling the function in a reasonable amount of time.
2015-03-02T06:09:40Z beach: It depends on the compiler of course.
2015-03-02T06:10:44Z beach: I think I might have an idea...
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2015-03-02T06:14:57Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+34OI
2015-03-02T06:15:14Z beach: On SBCL, it is reasonable to give it a list of length 25 or so.
2015-03-02T06:15:36Z beach: On Clasp, perhaps significantly less.
2015-03-02T06:15:46Z beach: Maybe 15 or so.
2015-03-02T06:16:53Z beach: Such a list is short enough that it will fit in the cache.
2015-03-02T06:19:33Z drmeister: How is this?
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2015-03-02T06:20:07Z beach: How is what?
2015-03-02T06:20:08Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146035
2015-03-02T06:20:26Z drmeister: paste.lisp.org requires extra hoops
2015-03-02T06:20:45Z drmeister: Cleavir is about three times faster at traversing the list.
2015-03-02T06:20:52Z drmeister: That's significant
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2015-03-02T06:21:13Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TzSNB8zh
2015-03-02T06:21:44Z beach: You could have just called MAKELIST to make the list.
2015-03-02T06:21:50Z drmeister: Oh you.
2015-03-02T06:22:30Z drmeister: I didn't know there was a make-list - hang on
2015-03-02T06:23:48Z beach: clhs make-list
2015-03-02T06:23:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_lis.htm
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2015-03-02T06:26:22Z beach: drmeister: Zhivago is right though.  You might have cache issues with such a long list.
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2015-03-02T06:28:51Z drmeister: Sure, but what difference does that make when I'm comparing two compilers that search the same list using the same functions?
2015-03-02T06:29:47Z beach: drmeister: As you now a/b is not the same as (a + c)/(b + c)
2015-03-02T06:30:18Z beach: If c is large, then it will give the wrong impression.
2015-03-02T06:30:32Z beach: ... such as if c is arithmetic or cache overhead, or ...
2015-03-02T06:31:13Z drmeister: But in the limit where c is very large then the  (a+c)/(b+c) --> 1
2015-03-02T06:31:27Z drmeister: Here we are seeing (a+c)/(b+c) ~ 3
2015-03-02T06:31:34Z beach: drmeister: Which is precisely what you don't want.
2015-03-02T06:31:50Z drmeister: What don't I want?
2015-03-02T06:32:00Z beach: drmeister: So you want to minimize common overhead, so that you can better appreciate the different (or rather quotient) in performance.
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2015-03-02T06:32:21Z drmeister: This is just approximate timing.
2015-03-02T06:32:33Z beach: drmeister: You don't want c (the overhead) to dominate your benchmarks.
2015-03-02T06:32:41Z drmeister: Doesn't it mean that Cleavir is at least three times faster than Clasp?
2015-03-02T06:32:53Z beach: Sure.
2015-03-02T06:33:12Z drmeister: Right - that's fine for me for now.
2015-03-02T06:33:33Z Zhivago: It just might be three times faster for the wrong reasons. :)
2015-03-02T06:33:42Z drmeister: How?
2015-03-02T06:34:22Z Zhivago: As beach was saying just above.
2015-03-02T06:35:08Z beach: drmeister: It would be great if you could get an idea (say using the GDB method I suggested) of what causes the difference.
2015-03-02T06:35:26Z beach: ... so that we won't fall into the same trap as before, comparing compiled and interpreted code.
2015-03-02T06:35:50Z drmeister: That's not the case this time.
2015-03-02T06:35:59Z drmeister: They are both being compiled by COMPILE
2015-03-02T06:36:11Z beach: drmeister: What I meant was not that particular trap.
2015-03-02T06:36:28Z beach: drmeister: But a similar one that has the effect of not comparing what we want.
2015-03-02T06:37:28Z beach: Just saying.  Not important I guess.
2015-03-02T06:37:46Z drmeister: It's 1:30am here - I'm a bit tired.
2015-03-02T06:40:35Z drmeister: It also doesn't matter to me right now.   They are both traversing the same list using the same CDR function and test function. My guess is that the Cleavir version doesn't have to do as much work because it stores the temp variable in a register when Clasp stores it in a closure and has to keep calling a function to chase the pointer.
2015-03-02T06:41:29Z ggole: "Guess"? Can't you, uh, look at the output?
2015-03-02T06:42:12Z drmeister: It's takes me time to read LLVM-IR
2015-03-02T06:42:20Z drmeister: I'll look into it tomorrow.
2015-03-02T06:42:36Z ggole: Ah, I suppose it could be pretty hair-filled.
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2015-03-02T06:43:19Z faheem_: are all these tests on amd64 or i386? They can give different results
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2015-03-02T06:44:04Z faheem_: SBCL has behaved quite badly for me in the past on i386. Something about not enough registers, apparently.
2015-03-02T06:44:14Z drmeister: Here:
2015-03-02T06:44:14Z faheem_: GC issues, mainly.
2015-03-02T06:44:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SfO9jMMV
2015-03-02T06:44:55Z drmeister: That's the Cleavir generated function.
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2015-03-02T06:46:39Z drmeister: My DISASSEMBLE is broken at the moment (sigh)
2015-03-02T06:46:48Z drmeister: Good night everyone.
2015-03-02T06:47:02Z drmeister: beach - thanks for your help.
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2015-03-02T06:47:31Z drmeister: faheem_: I missed that - I think its an intel chip.
2015-03-02T06:48:14Z drmeister: But both compiled codes are running on the same chip, traversing the same list with the same everything, just different organization.   Oh  and the Clasp version has some debugging calls that may be slowing it down.
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2015-03-02T07:33:44Z faheem_: drmeister: probably amd64 or equivalent
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2015-03-02T07:34:13Z faheem_: that's some complicated code. looks a bit like assembly.
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2015-03-02T07:43:32Z Quadrescence: An easy-moderate puzzle for you curious minds: Why does this produce Eulerian numbers? Enjoy. ;) https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/2d8686e93f475991d81b177ed7c9029dd7272097/eulerian-numbers.lisp
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2015-03-02T07:45:53Z Ralt: Quadrescence: are you "tarballs_are_good"?
2015-03-02T07:46:04Z Quadrescence: T
2015-03-02T07:46:16Z Ralt: cool
2015-03-02T07:46:21Z Ralt: I like your ADT lib
2015-03-02T07:46:31Z Ralt: haven't used it yet though, but I like it.
2015-03-02T07:46:51Z Quadrescence: feel free to mail me suggestions on things that are annoying about it
2015-03-02T07:47:49Z Ralt: I will when I use it, thanks
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2015-03-02T07:58:29Z Ralt: Quadrescence: btw, I was just browsing this: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2xl23i/explain_pattern_matching_eli5_style/
2015-03-02T08:00:54Z Quadrescence: OPTIMA is definitely a pretty general pattern matching library.
2015-03-02T08:01:06Z Quadrescence: It would be nice to inform OPTIMA of ADT.
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2015-03-02T08:04:05Z Ralt: yup, seems there are cross-features
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2015-03-02T08:04:21Z Quadrescence: ADT is *not* a library for pattern matching
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2015-03-02T08:04:39Z Quadrescence: the ADT:MATCH macro is appropriately named, but distinct from OPTIMA:MATCH
2015-03-02T08:05:21Z Quadrescence: ADT:MATCH is for doing compile-time checked, union type discrimination of data types
2015-03-02T08:05:44Z Ralt: ah, I see what you mean
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2015-03-02T08:06:29Z Quadrescence: Of course, OPTIMA could be made to match ADT's, but it wouldn't usurp the purpose of ADT:MATCH completely.
2015-03-02T08:07:11Z Quadrescence: By "usurp", I really mean "supersede". :)
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2015-03-02T09:04:24Z pjb: -
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2015-03-02T10:08:35Z Ralt: pjb: ?
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2015-03-02T10:15:09Z splittist: Ralt: it's his wake-up message, presumably to see if there are any memos. It could be worse: he might use "(" and annoy the OCD out of us...
2015-03-02T10:17:04Z axion: lol
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2015-03-02T10:18:56Z axion: sometimes i hate writing computational geometry algorithms. the only examples to go by are painful to look at and ancient AutoLisp code
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2015-03-02T10:46:57Z sol__: need help with timeouts on datagram socket - i pass the :timeout value on socket-connect but receive doesn't timeout...it just hangs there
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2015-03-02T10:49:49Z H4ns: sol__: what implementation do you use?
2015-03-02T10:49:56Z sol__: H4ns, sbcl
2015-03-02T10:50:21Z H4ns: sol__: try sb-sys:with-deadline
2015-03-02T10:51:26Z H4ns: sol__: i'm also curious why you expect the timeout that you pass to socket-connect to be applied to your receive call
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2015-03-02T10:52:34Z sol__: because receive doesn't have timeout param and usocket docs say thats how it works...
2015-03-02T10:53:51Z H4ns: fair enough, then i'd expect that as well :)  -  timeouts are a rather icky topic in common lisp, though, and if you want reliable timeouts, you're often best served by not using any compatibility library.  rather, use what your implementation provides.
2015-03-02T10:54:17Z sol__: sb-sys:with-deadline (:seconds 1) doesn't work either... blah
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2015-03-02T10:55:22Z H4ns: what do you mean by "blah"?
2015-03-02T10:56:06Z sol__: i mean i am frustrated :)
2015-03-02T10:56:26Z H4ns: understandable.
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2015-03-02T10:57:33Z sol__: maybe it's the way i set things up... i run udp server with socket-server on a seperate thread with handler function that sleeps for 5 seconds before echoing back the buffer
2015-03-02T10:57:51Z sol__: maybe the fact that it's on a thread and not a seperate process...
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2015-03-02T11:06:13Z sol__: nope, running the udp server on seperate process and still no game
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2015-03-02T11:07:16Z H4ns: you'll either have to share some minimal example that exposes your problem or help yourself
2015-03-02T11:07:53Z sol__: what do you guys use for sharing code here?
2015-03-02T11:08:16Z H4ns: if you want to use the deadline feature, you may want to know that the deadline expiration condition is not an error.
2015-03-02T11:08:21Z H4ns: paste.lisp.org
2015-03-02T11:11:28Z sol__: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146037
2015-03-02T11:15:41Z H4ns: where does your handler send a response to the client?
2015-03-02T11:16:22Z H4ns: ah, ok
2015-03-02T11:16:46Z H4ns: i've never used that functionality of usocket, sorry.
2015-03-02T11:17:16Z H4ns: if you're already using sb-sys, you could as well stop using usocket altogether and just work with what sbcl provides instead.
2015-03-02T11:17:26Z H4ns: or you could try the usocket mailing list for help.
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2015-03-02T12:20:08Z jackdaniel: sol__: maybe iolib?
2015-03-02T12:20:19Z jackdaniel: it provides sockets as well
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2015-03-02T13:07:56Z quazimodo: pjb: hey pjb i have a 20gib xml file I need to get into a postgres table somehow
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2015-03-02T13:08:55Z quazimodo: I was thinking to parse the xml, say 50000-100000 main nodes at a time, building a csv 'buffer' then streaming that to postgres COPY function
2015-03-02T13:08:58Z quazimodo: there are like
2015-03-02T13:09:02Z quazimodo: 45 million rows
2015-03-02T13:09:29Z quazimodo: so i'd populate the table each  50-100k lines at a time
2015-03-02T13:09:35Z quazimodo: any thoughts?
2015-03-02T13:11:01Z splittist: quazimodo: I would have thought dim would have some ideas
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2015-03-02T13:15:15Z quazimodo: who's dim?
2015-03-02T13:15:34Z quazimodo: we've never really spoken, I've only really talked a lot to pjb
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2015-03-02T13:15:42Z quazimodo: who seems to know a lot about everything
2015-03-02T13:15:58Z jackdaniel: dim wrote pgloader afaik (not sure though)
2015-03-02T13:16:05Z pjb: But dim knows more about postgres.
2015-03-02T13:16:26Z quazimodo: dim: whatcha think?
2015-03-02T13:17:03Z quazimodo: i was thinking i'll put *all* the xml data into a staging table, clean it up and then append them into my actual table so that I can also update on primary key arther than trying to create
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2015-03-02T13:20:09Z quazimodo: i asked in #postgres
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2015-03-02T13:23:01Z Xach: quazimodo: just do it
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2015-03-02T13:24:37Z quazimodo: Xach: lol
2015-03-02T13:24:52Z quazimodo: 'just do it' resulted in me trynig to use my ORM to get 3.5 million rows in
2015-03-02T13:25:00Z quazimodo: actually it did 150000 in a few minutes
2015-03-02T13:25:13Z Xach: good, exploring the problem space and finding dead ends is very useful
2015-03-02T13:25:30Z quazimodo: not when it's an obvious retard choice and costs the client money
2015-03-02T13:25:33Z quazimodo: i knew it was a crap ide
2015-03-02T13:25:51Z quazimodo: then again i only thought the first xml file only had a few hundred thousands 'rows'
2015-03-02T13:25:57Z quazimodo: in fact it had 3.5 million
2015-03-02T13:26:04Z quazimodo: the next xml file has 20 times that
2015-03-02T13:26:14Z Xach: Obviously bad choices are not part of exploration
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2015-03-02T13:26:29Z Xach: Everything is clearer after you explore it.
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2015-03-02T13:35:19Z Xach publishes the top 100 downloads for february
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2015-03-02T13:39:36Z Xach: alexandria is still #1 with a bullet
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2015-03-02T13:43:36Z quazimodo slaps xach
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2015-03-02T13:46:17Z jackdaniel: Xach: on planet ?
2015-03-02T13:46:25Z jackdaniel found nothing
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2015-03-02T14:07:40Z Xach: jackdaniel: it will update in time
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2015-03-02T14:20:20Z Xach: jackdaniel: you can find it on blog.quicklisp.org if you're in a hurry
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2015-03-02T14:39:11Z dlowe: loke: I'm doing local-time
2015-03-02T14:39:24Z dlowe: mostly. sort of.
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2015-03-02T14:40:27Z sol__: jackdaniel, thanks for the suggestion - i checked out iolib, it looks nice although in the end i found a solution with usockets: calling (wait-for-input) with timeout keyword
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2015-03-02T14:53:45Z jackdaniel: ok
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2015-03-02T15:03:48Z dlowe: Xach: I've used startssl.com and they seem nicely paranoid.
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2015-03-02T15:04:11Z dlowe: Xach: you don't even get a username/password. They issue you a client cert.
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2015-03-02T15:04:48Z hitecnologys: dlowe: StartSSL's certificate doesn't work in many browsers.
2015-03-02T15:05:04Z foom: hitecnologys: not true.
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2015-03-02T15:05:19Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what is "many"?
2015-03-02T15:05:27Z hitecnologys: foom: well, mine doesn't work in Firefox and Chrome.
2015-03-02T15:05:36Z hitecnologys: foom: that's many enough for me.
2015-03-02T15:05:42Z foom: hitecnologys: You did it wrong, then
2015-03-02T15:05:48Z foom: startssl certainly works in both firefox and chrome
2015-03-02T15:05:54Z foom: (and IE and all the others)
2015-03-02T15:05:56Z H4ns: mine works just fine in firefox and chrome for me
2015-03-02T15:06:00Z hitecnologys: Hmm.
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2015-03-02T15:08:27Z hitecnologys: Well, I always knew I was surprisingly incompetent.
2015-03-02T15:08:50Z hitecnologys: Thanks for information. I will investigate it further.
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2015-03-02T15:09:06Z dlowe: hitecnologys: do you mean the client cert or an issued server cert?
2015-03-02T15:09:24Z dlowe: The server certs they issue have an intermediary cert that you have to include
2015-03-02T15:09:32Z hitecnologys: dlowe: server certificate.
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2015-03-02T15:10:03Z hitecnologys: dlowe: ah, that must be the cause of my troubles.
2015-03-02T15:10:18Z H4ns: it certainly helps to read the instructions
2015-03-02T15:10:22Z foom: Yea, I'm pretty sure the instructions do tell you to do that. :)
2015-03-02T15:10:26Z dlowe: and including that intermediate cert is different for different pieces of software
2015-03-02T15:10:30Z dlowe: which is annoying
2015-03-02T15:10:48Z foom: I don't understand why openssl can't just read it from the same cert file.
2015-03-02T15:10:59Z hitecnologys: Bleh. I must have missed that part somehow.
2015-03-02T15:11:01Z foom: there's really no purpose to making it be in a separate file.
2015-03-02T15:11:06Z dlowe: it can
2015-03-02T15:11:14Z dlowe: dovecot acts that way, I'm pretty sure
2015-03-02T15:11:16Z foom: *SOME* software can read it from the same file
2015-03-02T15:11:30Z dlowe: right, it's the application, though, not some openssl limitation
2015-03-02T15:11:31Z foom: some (also using openssl) cannot
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2015-03-02T15:11:44Z dlowe: developers just being lazy :)
2015-03-02T15:11:46Z foom: no, that's dumb
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2015-03-02T15:12:24Z foom: openssl should just dtrt, it's insane how you have to use magic undocumented incantations to get it to work right.
2015-03-02T15:12:38Z dlowe: well, I'm certainly not going to defends openssl's api
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2015-03-02T15:16:30Z Cymew: Hopefully the OpenBSD fork will be better, and soon adopted by all
2015-03-02T15:17:06Z Xach: The conversation was kicked off by my twitter question of "can you suggest an ssl provider for me to use for quicklisp.org"
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2015-03-02T15:17:46Z H4ns: Xach: startssl works fine if you use it correctly.
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2015-03-02T15:18:52Z foom: Use startssl this year, and when it expires next year, switch to Let's Encrypt, so you never have to deal with startssl's annoying website again.
2015-03-02T15:19:20Z Shinmera: Or wait until summer, which is when Let's Encrypt should be available.
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2015-03-02T15:19:51Z foom: Might as well set it up with startssl now, then you have a whole year for let's encrypt to get out all its bugs
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2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: munksgaard xificurC mulk bjorkintosh mrSpec a2015 Khisanth tmch gingerale ``Erik hvxgr stepnem funnel kushal ggole Kanae Vutral taylanub gko__ joneshf-laptop dmiles_akf Jessin keen__________75 heurist`_ Intensity d4ryus Zhivago hitecnologys ruste antgreen therik {0}grant SHODAN bb010g kraison aeth Soft Petit_Dejeuner_ kcj dkcl nell quasisane wglb thodg samebchase redeemed Patzy yeticry GGMethos lagging_troll zacharias foom Oddity farhaven thail finnrobi
2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: [boxed-pyon] nowhere_man_ diginet Xach fikusz karswell ivan\ moei sivoais PaulCapestany setheus pjb honkfestival burtons jl_3 nopf yrdz cpc26 mathrick MoALTz_ fnord jtz White_Flame MrWoohoo les rebelshrug jrm rotty apathor easye AntiSpamMeta dilated_dinosaur Posterdati minion nicdev ecraven Jubb ryankarason mtd drdo impulse luis mikaelj arrsim djinni` K1rk kbtr |3b| lifenoodles trig-ger replcated joshe capitaomorte TristamWrk lemoinem shifty778 teiresias
2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: eMBee anunnaki seg decent jackc_ sbryant stratomula alchemis7 codebrainz Natch srcerer peterhil ivan4th ssake eazar001 nisstyre MightyJoe axion zymurgy milosn thomas eak Takumo tkd girrig kapil___ oGMo dan64 Neptu renard_ p_l|backup nitro_idiot micro xorpse viaken brandonz_ phf tstc hyoyoung galdor nitrix moomin-aba_ hratsimihah ozzloy loke lieven p_l ineiros H4ns rvchangue_ Bike theBlackDragon yauz_2 j_king tokenrove Odin- reb cross aksatac mood emlow
2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: vhost- housel flip214 sellout whartung stopbyte abbe snafuchs spacebat sfa froggey gigetoo mburke nydel wooden nightfly jdz dxtr Xof enfors c74d kanru dlowe shwouchk rtoym specbot ggherdov wilfredh pchrist chameco swflint_away az faheem_ PuercoPop endou________ d4gg4d charlie sepi klltkr ferada mearnsh cpt_nemo devon Colleen lpaste necronian fe[nl]ix Blkt trigen larme sid_cypher sytse Cheery daimrod notty akkad Oladon vlnx tristero joast gz gluegadget
2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: splittist victor_lowther cojy_ NhanH Amaan joshmcmillan_ alexherbo2 ered Ralt ramus trn agam pok Sgeo __main__ Tordek johs Grue` killmaster ski mietek someone isoraqathedh alakra jpanest Subfusc tsumetai jasom brent80_plow tessier arrdem BlastHardcheese xristos antoszka zbigniew aerique acieroid eagleflo Tuxedo clog phadthai enn Borbus alex6407 bege Fade mischief jayne metaf5 Ober qlkzy ovidnis gko kepler s_e cods bcoburn_ nightshade427 Tristam yorick
2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: drmeister sword jackdaniel clop2 justinmcp_ emma renopt ck_ jsnell lea troydm aap cibs GuilOooo vsync clop AeroNotix stux|RC-only misv ircbrowse mingvs joga bthom Rudolph-Miller kalzz peccu2 Neet edran_ Plazma gabc dim tomaw z0d katco copec oconnore adeht zickzackv The_third_man newcup rvirding bytecrawler kjeldahl sshirokov brucem ft josteink john-mcaleely scharan j0ni Mandus sjl backupthrick gabot guaqua sharkz wenincode qbit gensym yeltzooo stokachu
2015-03-02T15:21:38Z names: schjetne
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2015-03-02T16:03:35Z bicle: is there some way to expand a form in a different package?
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2015-03-02T16:04:27Z dlowe: bicle: what do you mean by expand?
2015-03-02T16:04:40Z bicle: macroexpand
2015-03-02T16:04:48Z dlowe: bicle: did you write the macro?
2015-03-02T16:04:59Z bicle: no
2015-03-02T16:05:25Z dlowe: not easily, then. The macro probably emits symbols that use some specific package already.
2015-03-02T16:06:04Z dlowe: You might be able to walk the tree and change each symbol of the origin package to the destination package
2015-03-02T16:06:08Z dlowe: with your own macro
2015-03-02T16:06:21Z dlowe: What problem are you trying to solve?
2015-03-02T16:06:22Z bicle: was a bit afraid of that ..
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2015-03-02T16:07:22Z bicle: thanks ..
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2015-03-02T16:08:38Z pjb: (let ((*package* (find-package "DIFFERENT-PACKAGE"))) (macroexpand '(your macro call)))
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2015-03-02T16:09:40Z dlowe: pjb: that seems unlikely to do anything useful
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2015-03-02T16:36:13Z pjb: dlowe: it expands a frm in a different package. ie. it answers precisely the question.
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2015-03-02T16:38:16Z pjb: dlowe: the alternative answer is: (in-package "DIFFERENT-PACKAGE") (yoru macro call)
2015-03-02T16:38:52Z dlowe: I try and make a distinction between the question asked and what the person probably wanted.
2015-03-02T16:39:10Z pjb: Giving those answers would make him understand his question.
2015-03-02T16:39:39Z dlowe: or frustrate him and lead him to the conclusion that lispers are overly pedantic and unfriendly
2015-03-02T16:39:51Z dlowe: which is not entirely unjustified.
2015-03-02T16:40:04Z pjb: I'm not sure he gained anything above.
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2015-03-02T16:40:31Z pjb: But then, he didn't seem eager to learn much either, leaving so soon.
2015-03-02T16:40:32Z dlowe: sigh. yeah, me either.
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2015-03-02T16:42:12Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-03-02T16:42:48Z dlowe: morning, nyef
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2015-03-02T16:54:53Z burtons`: hi nyef
2015-03-02T16:57:53Z burtons`: henry put in a fix so that Mezzano can use more than 1G of ram, things run a lot smoother with 3G or more
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2015-03-02T16:59:54Z burtons`: i've been working on the editor from inside MZ, and if you don't hit C-c C-c inside a large file (like the editor source) it's actually quite a usable system
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2015-03-02T17:23:48Z eskatrem: is someone using Mezzanine here?
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2015-03-02T17:31:03Z burtons`: i am
2015-03-02T17:31:22Z burtons`: it's called mezzano now
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2015-03-02T17:44:48Z warweasle: Anyone have experience with CFFI adding long delays for a specific foreign function? I've almost got my physics library helloworld working, but I have ONE function that costs my code several orders of magnitude!
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2015-03-02T17:51:14Z burtons`: I didn't see that when i wrote cl-cffi-mikmod
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2015-03-02T17:56:42Z pjb: warweasle: if you're converting between lisp data types and C data types when you call that function, then indeed, it may be costly.
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2015-03-02T18:02:49Z warweasle: pjb: I've done a lot of that, but it didn't seem to cause a problem before. At least not taking 100x or more.
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2015-03-02T18:03:53Z burtons`: warweasle: could it be taking longer because it's the first function call? initializing the dll and such?
2015-03-02T18:05:01Z warweasle: burtons`: No, I call it repeatedly from a callback. But without that one function, everything is fine. Only a microseconds slower than the c version.
2015-03-02T18:05:40Z warweasle: Here are the bindings: http://pastebin.com/DxP4XGkx
2015-03-02T18:05:51Z warweasle: Here is my program: http://pastebin.com/4gc0MWmR
2015-03-02T18:05:57Z burtons`: warweasle: are you using sbcl?  if so i'd look into doing some profiling using sb-sprof to maybe see where the bottleneck
2015-03-02T18:06:30Z burtons`: warweasle: it's pretty easy to use (require 'sb-sprof) (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:report :graph) (your-code-here))
2015-03-02T18:07:03Z warweasle: Yes. But I'm not familiar with sb-sprof. I've used slime's profile functions and it doesn't say anything about foreign functions (or my callback)
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2015-03-02T18:07:34Z burtons`: i'd try the sprof and see if you can see anything
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2015-03-02T18:09:05Z burtons`: if the call is really that bad, it should show up at the top of the report
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2015-03-02T18:09:52Z jasom: warweasle: I've seen it; does the function call take a structure?
2015-03-02T18:10:12Z warweasle: jasom: Yes, three structures.
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2015-03-02T18:11:41Z jasom: I bet if you profile you will see a lot of time in the CFFI code for converting structures from lisp to C
2015-03-02T18:12:41Z jasom: for performance, it's best to treat the structures as opaque pointers whenever possible, particularly if you get a structure in from one foreign function that you need to pass out to another
2015-03-02T18:13:13Z warweasle: jasom: That's good to know.
2015-03-02T18:13:39Z warweasle: Can anyone decypher my profile output. It looks like I'm spending all my time in a C function but I can't tell.
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2015-03-02T18:15:04Z warweasle: Here is the output: http://pastebin.com/bB8vB4cv
2015-03-02T18:16:18Z burtons`: pastebin is taking forver to load
2015-03-02T18:16:26Z jasom: for mee to
2015-03-02T18:16:30Z jasom: me too even
2015-03-02T18:16:59Z jackdaniel: use ix.io, or paste.lisp.org
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2015-03-02T18:17:42Z warweasle: I also just saw there is more data before that.
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2015-03-02T18:26:42Z warweasle: Ok, I think I found something.
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2015-03-02T18:27:02Z warweasle: It runs fine the first time I call the test...
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2015-03-02T18:31:34Z schjetne: Looking at the ASDF documentation, wondering if there's a good way to use it to include non-Lisp data files in the image.
2015-03-02T18:32:08Z schjetne: I'll probably store things like that externally and load at runtime, but it could come in handy.
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2015-03-02T18:34:36Z burtons`: schjetne: i couldn't see how you could access them without having them compiled into the image
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2015-03-02T18:35:21Z burtons`: schjetne: normally, one would write a utility to convert files into lisp source and include them that way, then you could just reference them as variables from the code
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2015-03-02T18:40:19Z warweasle: Thank you all! I figured it out. It was more a stupid programmer trick, but I figured it out by following the cpu cycles.
2015-03-02T18:40:35Z burtons`: good! congrats
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2015-03-02T18:42:03Z pjb: -
2015-03-02T18:42:33Z schjetne: burtons`: sure, but the idea is to delegate the task of doing the conversion to ASDF
2015-03-02T18:43:02Z schjetne: I guess you could use asdf:system-source-file to figure out where the project is located
2015-03-02T18:43:09Z burtons`: schjetne: it would be nice if it automagically did that
2015-03-02T18:43:25Z schjetne: system-source-directory*
2015-03-02T18:45:22Z schjetne: Or maybe I can define a component-type for the given file format
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2015-03-02T18:49:38Z jasom: I don't always profile my code, but when I do, it usually gets a hell of a lot faster
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2015-03-02T18:50:18Z burtons`: jasom: yes, and it's pretty easy to do with sb-sprof
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2015-03-02T19:05:01Z burtons`: can anyone point me at an example of creating a new stream type?
2015-03-02T19:05:18Z burtons`: like a string stream, or something of the sort?
2015-03-02T19:05:20Z Xach: burtons`: flexi-streams has some examples, i think.
2015-03-02T19:05:38Z burtons`: for standard CL streams?
2015-03-02T19:05:54Z H4ns: burtons`: the sbcl manual has some useful examples.
2015-03-02T19:05:55Z Xach: burtons`: it uses grey streams to do its work.
2015-03-02T19:06:16Z burtons`: ok, thanks
2015-03-02T19:06:18Z Belias: (with-open-file (my-stream ...)..)?
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2015-03-02T19:06:44Z burtons`: my-stream-type
2015-03-02T19:07:19Z burtons`: something I could pass to format and have the data written to a different data structure than a file or io stream
2015-03-02T19:08:13Z H4ns: burtons`: the source is here https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/doc/manual/gray-streams-examples.texinfo, but i cannot find the rendered version.
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2015-03-02T19:09:10Z burtons`: ok, so it looks like gray streams are what i'm looking for
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2015-03-02T19:09:42Z burtons`: H4ns: thanks, i'll look into that
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2015-03-02T19:16:57Z Belias: So as a lisp novice, I don't think I understand why one would use (flet) instead of (labels). Isn't the former just the latter without recursive functions?
2015-03-02T19:18:46Z jackdaniel: Belias: you may create with flet function, which shadows function in upper scope, ie (flet ((list ...
2015-03-02T19:18:53Z nyef: Yes. FLET is a workable default, has semantics that are easier to reason about, and allows you to call a function that would be shadowed by the FLET from within a FLET definition.
2015-03-02T19:19:01Z H4ns: Belias: yes.  it is one of the oddities of common lisp that can only be explained by history.
2015-03-02T19:19:08Z jackdaniel: lol
2015-03-02T19:19:39Z Belias: Heheh, thanks guys. I remember briefly reading about shadowing and packages, so I guess it'd be time for a re-visit.
2015-03-02T19:19:40Z H4ns: Belias: there are sometimes reasons to use flet over labels or the other way round, but the language would not be much poorer if there was only one of them.
2015-03-02T19:19:43Z nyef: There are actual use-cases where FLET works and LABELS does not, but they are fairly rare and probably best avoided.
2015-03-02T19:19:57Z Xach: jackdaniel: that is not a good example. the consequences are undefined if you make a local function named cl:list.
2015-03-02T19:20:00Z jackdaniel: erm, list maybe isn't a good example, but you know the drill
2015-03-02T19:20:06Z Xach: aye
2015-03-02T19:20:08Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, aftertought
2015-03-02T19:20:11Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-03-02T19:20:44Z Belias: Thanks again, everyone!
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2015-03-02T19:21:37Z Shinmera: Belias: It's mostly also just for the reader so that he doesn't have to prepare himself for a recursive function.
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2015-03-02T19:22:11Z Belias: Yeah, that'd make sense. It'd eliminate the possibility of doing something pertaining to an infinite loop by accident.
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2015-03-02T19:22:48Z Belias: [Or the reader of the code, as you actually meant. Tee hee.]
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2015-03-02T19:25:35Z H4ns: they could have called it flet*, but no...
2015-03-02T19:26:10Z jackdaniel prefers using labels everywhere but places where it is desired to use flet
2015-03-02T19:26:14Z nyef: H4ns: But then it might be confused with the semantics of LET*, which are different.
2015-03-02T19:27:39Z H4ns: nyef: in what sense?
2015-03-02T19:28:16Z oGMo: labels is recursive. let* isn't?
2015-03-02T19:28:29Z nyef: LABELS can construct functions that can refer to themselves, LET* can't refer to a value when creating a binding.
2015-03-02T19:28:53Z H4ns: ah, ok.  thanks!
2015-03-02T19:28:59Z nyef: (that is, (LET* ((FOO (CONS FOO NIL))) ...) doesn't create a recursive CONS cell.)
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2015-03-02T19:30:59Z foom: While you're at it, "let" could be dispensed with as well (just keep let*'s semantics, naming it let)
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2015-03-02T19:34:28Z oGMo: fugue2: no, it could not
2015-03-02T19:35:01Z oGMo: err, foom
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2015-03-02T20:13:39Z pjb: Belias: basically: (defun f (x) (list 'hi x))  (flet ((f (x) (f (list x x))))  (f 42)) --> (hi (42 42))
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2015-03-02T20:14:02Z pjb: Belias: this wouldn't work with labels, since labels would make a recursive call to the same F, while flet makes a call to the F in the outer scope.
2015-03-02T20:14:19Z pjb: Belias: notice that you are forbidden to flet or labels a CL operator!
2015-03-02T20:16:03Z Belias: Hmm. Thanks for clarification!
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2015-03-02T20:17:37Z Belias: Alright, typing that out now, I think I can see why that's not working with labels.
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2015-03-02T20:21:32Z pjb: Belias: for binding operators, it's always important to take note of the different scopes.
2015-03-02T20:22:45Z pjb: For example, (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (let ((b (+ a (incf b))) (a (incf a))) (list a b))) --> (2 4)
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2015-03-02T20:23:17Z pjb: if you consider the inner let, first, (+ a (incf b)) is evalated (in the body scope of the outer let, therefore b of the outer let is incremented.
2015-03-02T20:23:40Z pjb: Then  (incf a)is evalauted (in the body scope of the outer let, therefore a of the outer let is incremented).
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2015-03-02T20:23:58Z pjb: then b and a are bound to the values previously computed.
2015-03-02T20:24:14Z pjb: then (list a b)is evaluated in the scope of the inner let, with the new variables b and a.
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2015-03-02T20:28:52Z Belias: Thanks again, pjb. I went ahead and screenshotted the explanation so I've got it on hand.
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2015-03-02T20:37:21Z jasom: I hate it when library authors remove features I'm using that are defined as exported symbols
2015-03-02T20:37:54Z pjb: Sometimes I _move_ stuff around, but rarely do I _remove_ it.
2015-03-02T20:38:13Z Xach: let 'em know!
2015-03-02T20:38:15Z jasom: yeah
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2015-03-02T20:41:04Z pjb: And often, I just leave an stub calling the new API, with a warning to migrate, for some number of versions before removing it definitively.
2015-03-02T20:41:29Z jasom: Maybe they had a good reason; it's in zeromq, and it used to have a function MSG-DATA-AS-IS which gave you the cffi pointer to the raw message; now all they will do is give it to you as a string or byte-vector
2015-03-02T20:41:51Z jasom: which is annoying because that means instead of writing into it as I build the message, I have to have an extra memcopy
2015-03-02T20:43:06Z jasom: They added a #+lispworks read-conditional to use a static area, which may save a copy on lispworks, but the old way would save a copy on any implementation
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2015-03-02T21:06:00Z francogrex: can I "destructure" a list of lists so that each element becomes an argument to a function as such: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146042
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2015-03-02T21:07:13Z francogrex: I have a large list of lists that I want to bind into an R matrix without having to type by hand all the individual lists as args to "rbind" ...
2015-03-02T21:08:12Z jasom: uiop:run-program won't let you get the output as a vector of octets, right?
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2015-03-02T21:09:20Z jasom: Hmm, looks like I can give it any stream, so I can use one of the in-memory-stream libraries
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2015-03-02T21:13:09Z dlowe: francogrex: you mean like (mapc (lambda (list) (apply #'func list)) list-of-lists)
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2015-03-02T21:26:42Z francogrex: dlowe: I'm not sure I can apply it.
2015-03-02T21:28:25Z dlowe: who knows what craziness r% is doing there
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2015-03-02T21:29:09Z dlowe: (apply (lambda (a1 a2 a3) (r% ... a1 a2 a3) list-of-lists)  would probably work
2015-03-02T21:29:10Z francogrex: it expects me to type several lists by hand
2015-03-02T21:29:33Z dlowe: which is pretty much the same as destructuring-bind
2015-03-02T21:29:52Z francogrex: dlowe: yes that would work
2015-03-02T21:30:02Z dlowe: so use destructuring-bind :p
2015-03-02T21:30:03Z francogrex: but of course typing a1 to an
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2015-03-02T21:30:42Z dlowe: yeah, it's not great.
2015-03-02T21:30:57Z dlowe: verify that apply doesn't work first
2015-03-02T21:31:00Z francogrex: well I can let loop
2015-03-02T21:31:27Z francogrex: take care of printing the a1 to an and then copy paste them in there
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2015-03-02T21:32:00Z dlowe: using eval?
2015-03-02T21:32:26Z dlowe: (eval `(r% ... ,@list-of-lists)) would work
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2015-03-02T21:32:58Z dlowe: using a library that obeyed normal calling conventions would be cool, too
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2015-03-02T21:33:50Z DeadTrickster: hey guys, any suggestions on good docvumentation system, with args annotations and stuff like that?
2015-03-02T21:33:55Z csziacobus: instead of using eval, you could also just do a quick macrolet
2015-03-02T21:34:28Z csziacobus: DeadTrickster: i think the MGL-PAX project might be of interest to you
2015-03-02T21:34:30Z dlowe: I don't think macrolet would work here
2015-03-02T21:34:33Z DeadTrickster: I also would like to have type annotations for args
2015-03-02T21:34:44Z dlowe: because the value of list-of-lists isn't known at macro expansion time
2015-03-02T21:35:04Z csziacobus: i mean, for creating the a1 to an symbols in destructuring bind
2015-03-02T21:35:14Z csziacobus: with symbolicate
2015-03-02T21:35:26Z dlowe: how do you known what n is without knowing the contents of list-of-lists?
2015-03-02T21:35:53Z csziacobus: not the values, merely the symbols
2015-03-02T21:36:06Z DeadTrickster: csziacobus, thanks,
2015-03-02T21:36:27Z dlowe: you don't know how many symbols to create
2015-03-02T21:36:37Z dlowe: I mean, you could pass that information in explicitly
2015-03-02T21:37:00Z csziacobus: im not really too familiar with what the original user wanted to do
2015-03-02T21:37:04Z dlowe: kind of a crummy solution there, to pass in 4 when you have four values
2015-03-02T21:37:10Z francogrex: well almost there with the eval thing
2015-03-02T21:37:29Z csziacobus: francogex: what is it that you wanted to do?
2015-03-02T21:37:35Z dlowe: I think the constraints only admit crummy solutions, though
2015-03-02T21:38:07Z francogrex: the only hitch: `(r% "rbind" ,@*results*) => (R% "rbind" (0 0 1 2) (15 47 1 5) (0 0 0 1) (1 4 1 13) (2 9 0 0) (0 59 0 0) (0 2 0 1))
2015-03-02T21:38:33Z francogrex: crummy solutions are better than me typing 1000 lists or so...
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2015-03-02T21:39:13Z francogrex: csziacobus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/146042
2015-03-02T21:40:18Z csziacobus: you can use macrolet if you don't want to type those in
2015-03-02T21:40:40Z dlowe: francogrex: (eval `(r% "rbind" ,@(mapcar (lambda (r) `(quote ,r)) *results*)))
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2015-03-02T21:41:43Z dlowe: csziacobus: ok. how?
2015-03-02T21:41:52Z francogrex: dlowe: pretty wicked! :)
2015-03-02T21:41:55Z csziacobus: here, ill tpy eit up
2015-03-02T21:42:13Z francogrex: csziacobus: interested in alternatives also pls
2015-03-02T21:42:38Z francogrex: now dlowe solution works but I can archives as many others
2015-03-02T21:42:47Z Xaving: can i ask what library you use to bind with R?
2015-03-02T21:42:58Z csziacobus: francogex: http://pastebin.com/z1f3AyBd
2015-03-02T21:43:06Z csziacobus: this one is probably cleaner since it doesn't use eval
2015-03-02T21:44:18Z dlowe: I disagree. This won't work in most situations, and the eval solution will
2015-03-02T21:44:47Z csziacobus: dlowe: can you explain?
2015-03-02T21:45:20Z francogrex: Xaving: it's rcl
2015-03-02T21:45:22Z dlowe: because with eval, I can write (defun wrapped-rbind (list-of-lists) (eval `(r% "rbind" ,@(mapcar (lambda (r) `(quote ,r))  list-of-lists)))) and it will work properly for any input to wrapped-rbind
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2015-03-02T21:45:34Z csziacobus: francogex: sorry, forgeot to insert quotes, http://pastebin.com/TNm3sCVQ
2015-03-02T21:46:22Z dlowe: whereas the macrolet is dependent on a) *results* being a special value which is b) defined at macroexpand time
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2015-03-02T21:47:10Z csziacobus: dlowe: right, but if its known at macroexpansion time there is no reason not to use macrolet, since it's basically equivalent to typing it out by hand
2015-03-02T21:47:22Z csziacobus: of course, you're right when you need to know the values only at runtime
2015-03-02T21:47:35Z francogrex: csziacobus: ok
2015-03-02T21:47:56Z csziacobus: forgot the backquote in there >.<
2015-03-02T21:48:29Z Xaving: francogrex: Ah ok. It seems to work on SBCL. Is it possible to use it to minimize a function (e.g f(vectors, params1, params2) =(value, gradient-vectors)?
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2015-03-02T21:51:06Z francogrex: Xaving: R can do wonders check out optim example: http://www.mayin.org/ajayshah/KB/R/documents/mle/mle.html
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2015-03-02T21:51:50Z francogrex: also maxima
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2015-03-02T21:55:14Z dlowe: R strikes me as an amazingly thorough library bolted onto an unintuitive and frustrating language with somewhat nice slicing operators
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2015-03-02T22:00:28Z Xaving: Francogrex: nice link. Where should I start to make this example running in LISP?
2015-03-02T22:02:03Z Xaving: For maxima I didn't find a library that I can operate from sbcl
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2015-03-02T22:23:43Z dim:   0: ((:METHOD SLOT-MISSING (T T T T)) #<unused argument> #<DATA-TYPE VARCHAR2(20) {100650FD03}> PLCONVERT.STRUCTS::SCHEMA SLOT-VALUE NIL) [fast-method]
2015-03-02T22:23:59Z dim: what's the usual way to debug that? I'm not seeing the code that produces the value with missing slots...
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2015-03-02T22:39:25Z francogrex: maxima is common lisp not a library, it operates from any lisp especially sbcl
2015-03-02T22:39:31Z francogrex: hmm he left
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2015-03-02T23:22:04Z fugue: (+ 1 2 3)
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2015-03-02T23:25:14Z antoszka: => 7
2015-03-02T23:25:39Z fugue: pretty close
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2015-03-02T23:25:48Z antoszka: Your lisp is broken.
2015-03-02T23:26:09Z fugue: how so?
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2015-03-02T23:34:00Z Petit_Dejeuner__: "pretty close" lol
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