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2015-02-22T01:47:58Z burtons: i finally got opengenera running
2015-02-22T01:48:24Z burtons: no need to run it on an old version of ubuntu, the trick is to run it under vncserver
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2015-02-22T01:49:08Z burtons: after using it for a while, i realized that slime is just as good an interface...probably better
2015-02-22T01:49:26Z burtons: a nice trip into the past though
2015-02-22T01:50:47Z White_Flame: and in my opinion, a HTML render context is a reasonably-powered (if clunky) method of having active, responsive output objects
2015-02-22T01:50:55Z nyef: Heh! Pretty much the same realization I came to, eight or ten years ago: emacs+slime+sbcl is as good or better than running an old LispM under emulation.
2015-02-22T01:51:41Z nyef: (Of course, I came to this realization about fifteen minutes before getting an old LispM running under emulation, but it took quite a while to get to that point.)
2015-02-22T01:55:26Z burtons: yes, it does take a while to get it to run...a three day project for me, plus this wasn't the first time I tried
2015-02-22T01:56:10Z nyef: Heh. But you're using the genera emulator, I was going for an explorer.
2015-02-22T01:56:21Z burtons: ah
2015-02-22T01:56:38Z burtons: i like that slime is more keyboard driven as well
2015-02-22T01:56:48Z burtons: too much mouse dependence on the genera
2015-02-22T01:56:54Z nyef: Really?
2015-02-22T01:56:57Z nyef: That seems a little odd.
2015-02-22T01:57:16Z burtons: also, it doesn't seem like the emulator gives you all the keys
2015-02-22T01:57:31Z nyef: That's very plausible.
2015-02-22T01:57:34Z burtons: there's mention of a 'completion' key that I couldn't seem to find, so no tab like completion for anything
2015-02-22T01:57:51Z nyef: There's a reason why they were called "space cadet keyboards"
2015-02-22T01:58:09Z burtons: plus it seems to run at the same speed of the original...the graphics are woefully slow
2015-02-22T01:58:46Z burtons: but i got my fix trying it out. back to slime for me.
2015-02-22T01:59:06Z burtons: i played with the MIT cadr emulator as well
2015-02-22T01:59:21Z burtons: that's pretty primitive, but i'm sure it was impressive at the time
2015-02-22T01:59:54Z nyef: Have you tried playing with Mezzano yet?
2015-02-22T02:00:29Z burtons: no
2015-02-22T02:00:43Z burtons: is it useable?
2015-02-22T02:02:21Z nyef: That might depend on your definition of "usable".
2015-02-22T02:02:34Z nyef: The GC pauses are annoying, for example.
2015-02-22T02:03:20Z burtons: i'll have to try it out
2015-02-22T02:03:58Z burtons: has it gone farther along than Movitz?
2015-02-22T02:04:33Z a20150101: burtons: maybe you should write a howto to save time for those of us who have yet to try running it under emulation
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2015-02-22T02:04:54Z brucem: I don't think just playing with Open Genera for a couple of hours is really sufficient for getting a real feel for it.
2015-02-22T02:05:12Z nyef: burtons: As I don't believe that Movitz supports a GUI, a text editor, or an IRC client, I would say that it seems likely.
2015-02-22T02:05:20Z burtons: there are quite a few howtos out there, there was just one trick and that was running it under VNC rather than an x server
2015-02-22T02:05:34Z brucem: (Which is why I, in general, don't help anyone to get it running since they won't invest enough time into actually using it.)
2015-02-22T02:05:52Z burtons: brucem: no, i'm sure not.
2015-02-22T02:07:42Z burtons: brucem: but i did notice a lot of the features have been copied by slime, which i'm far more comfortable with
2015-02-22T02:08:48Z brucem: burtons: sure ... but they've been copied to the extent to which they can be ... they're imitations in a different context. So, sometimes looking at them through the eyes of "This is like SLIME" leads you to poor conclusions.
2015-02-22T02:11:21Z burtons: brucem: i wish the source and better documentatoin for the emulator was available.  the key remappings are a bit out of the way. i'm sure once one gets used to the interface it would be an amazing system.
2015-02-22T02:12:14Z burtons: i'm sure using a lisp machine is great...a lisp machine emulator, not so much
2015-02-22T02:13:31Z nyef: Too bad the actual hardware is obnoxiously rare and expensive... If it even still works.
2015-02-22T02:14:39Z brucem: I'm curious about the "new emulator" that has been written and is available from Symbolics DKG or whatever.
2015-02-22T02:14:57Z brucem: but not curious enough to shell out hundreds / thousands.
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2015-02-22T02:16:40Z burtons: nyef: is it worth it to go though the trouble of building Mezanno? am i going to be impressed?
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2015-02-22T02:23:46Z nyef: burtons: There is-or-was a pre-built VM image for virtualbox available.
2015-02-22T02:24:34Z nyef: It's not yet particularly usable as a day-to-day thing, but I was rather impressed.
2015-02-22T02:24:35Z burtons: that would be nice to try out
2015-02-22T02:30:29Z a20150101: burtons: http://okturing.com/src/2648/body
2015-02-22T02:30:42Z a20150101: those are the virtualbox instructions, just in case you want to try
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2015-02-22T02:31:00Z a20150101: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46753018/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-19%20at%2001.29.31.png
2015-02-22T02:31:01Z nyef: ... Looks about right.
2015-02-22T02:31:04Z a20150101: that is wha it looks like
2015-02-22T02:34:00Z burtons: a20150101: thanks
2015-02-22T02:34:08Z a20150101: you welcome
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2015-02-22T02:34:58Z brucem: nyef: How easy is it to write code that uses virtio-net?
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2015-02-22T02:36:00Z nyef: brucem: I have no idea.
2015-02-22T02:37:11Z brucem: ah, https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/supervisor/virtio-net.lisp
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2015-02-22T02:40:26Z burtons: oh, that wasn't so hard to get it built
2015-02-22T02:43:02Z burtons: takes a while to boot though
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2015-02-22T02:57:58Z emaczen: In what ways can you use destructuring-bind besides a list? I think my program is failing because I am trying to do it on a dotted pair.
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2015-02-22T03:06:35Z burtons: A quick howto on getting opengenera to run on a recent ubuntu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145876
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2015-02-22T03:09:41Z emaczen: how is a list of dotted pairs structured?
2015-02-22T03:10:12Z emaczen: I want to get the second dotted pair in this list, if it were a regular list, I would do (cadr dotted-list)
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2015-02-22T03:12:24Z emaczen: more particularly, given any dotted pair in the list, I would like to get the remaining dotted pairs. Again if this were a typical list I would just use #'cdr
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2015-02-22T03:13:40Z nyef: emaczen: I don't know if &REST will bind the CDR of a dotted pair or not, but that's the direction in which I would be looking.
2015-02-22T03:14:03Z nyef: And don't forget that the syntax gets a little funky when destructuring optional sublists.
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2015-02-22T03:16:31Z emaczen: nyef: ahhh, if it isn't trivial then I will hack around it for now with (list (car pair) (cdr pair))
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2015-02-22T03:18:43Z axion: Am I a bad programmer for refusing to work in non-lisps?
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2015-02-22T03:19:49Z emaczen: axion: No, I strive for the same thing but am not there yet :(
2015-02-22T03:19:50Z axion: I've been using Lisp exclusively for 6 years, and I am still very much a newbie. Though, one time I accepted a job in Python that took me 3 months, the whole time wishing I was allowed to do it in Lisp which would've taken less than a week.
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2015-02-22T03:20:19Z axion: Ever since, I've refused all jobs...because well, nobody wants code they can't maintain :)
2015-02-22T03:22:00Z emaczen: so right now I have this loop that collects into a list of dotted pairs -- how can I turn this into something like: ((rose red) (lily white) (buttercup yellow)) instead of dotted pairs?
2015-02-22T03:22:10Z emaczen: I stole the example from the elisp page btw
2015-02-22T03:22:57Z axion: do you need both formats?
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2015-02-22T03:23:12Z emaczen: No, I do not want the dotted list
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2015-02-22T03:24:04Z axion: let's see some code
2015-02-22T03:24:15Z axion: i'm up for a challenge. once again, i consider myself a newbie though :)
2015-02-22T03:24:28Z emaczen: There really isn't anything to show
2015-02-22T03:24:36Z axion: why not collect (list 1 2) then?
2015-02-22T03:25:01Z emaczen: I want this form : ((rose red) (lily white) (buttercup yellow))
2015-02-22T03:25:20Z emaczen: At the end of my loop, I do "collect (cons ch i)"
2015-02-22T03:25:42Z axion: change cons to list
2015-02-22T03:28:11Z emaczen: axion: Thanks! I had no idea that the pairs would now be linked!
2015-02-22T03:28:33Z emaczen: just by using 'list' instead of cons
2015-02-22T03:28:57Z axion: glad it worked. i thought this was a trick question. :)
2015-02-22T03:29:00Z emaczen: this also solves my destructuring question earlier :)
2015-02-22T03:29:09Z emaczen: axion: I'm more of a newb :)
2015-02-22T03:29:20Z emaczen: 6 years! I bet you aren't giving yourself enough credit?
2015-02-22T03:29:36Z axion: really, i am quite the newb. i don't even know about destructuring-bind
2015-02-22T03:30:05Z emaczen: It's just like pattern-matching by for lists and trees
2015-02-22T03:30:52Z emaczen: So far, I only really use it to give names to tuples
2015-02-22T03:30:55Z axion: i guess i haven't discovered it yet because i haven't had a need for it, or i hacked around it not knowing it existed :)
2015-02-22T03:30:58Z emaczen: where tuples are just short lists
2015-02-22T03:31:11Z emaczen: I'm sure there are much better uses out there
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2015-02-22T03:31:59Z axion: are you familiar with hash tables?
2015-02-22T03:32:29Z emaczen: I've used them a few times and have overrode the default :test function but that is about it
2015-02-22T03:32:47Z emaczen: I've also used maphash and the (loop for key being the hash-key .... )
2015-02-22T03:32:48Z axion: what you describe seems like a good use for a hash table, unless i'm missing something
2015-02-22T03:33:31Z emaczen: pattern-matching is like a switch statement on steroids
2015-02-22T03:34:44Z axion: tbh, i try not to use lists where performance is critical
2015-02-22T03:34:53Z emaczen: I tend to use the same patterns with destructuring-bind that I do in languages that have pattern matching (Scala and ML are the ones that do pattern matching a lot)
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2015-02-22T03:35:50Z emaczen: So I said a tuple, this is only ever going to be like a 2,3, or 4-tuple which would be faster as a list than a hash table
2015-02-22T03:35:57Z emaczen: There is a lot of overhead with initializing a hash-table
2015-02-22T03:36:39Z emaczen: Or I should just say more overhead than a few pointers making up a list of length 2, 3, or 4
2015-02-22T03:37:26Z emaczen: destructuring-bind in my code is really just syntactic sugar
2015-02-22T03:37:43Z axion: there are also linked lists. i just got done implementing a doubly-linked list
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2015-02-22T03:41:04Z emaczen: hash-tables are usually arrays and if you do the bucket technique to overccome collisions then those are usually linked-lists, but the average case access time for an element in a hash-table is constant whereas it is linear for a linked-list
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2015-02-22T03:41:45Z emaczen: so arrays of linked-lists
2015-02-22T03:43:46Z axion: this is true
2015-02-22T03:46:11Z emaczen: axion: I'm still stuck on my stupid list question...
2015-02-22T03:46:28Z axion: what are you stuck on?
2015-02-22T03:46:48Z emaczen: Given a list of this form ((rose red) (lily white) (buttercup yellow))
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2015-02-22T03:47:12Z emaczen: Now I am iterating over this list of pairs
2015-02-22T03:47:20Z axion: ok...
2015-02-22T03:47:21Z emaczen: So I have (rose red)
2015-02-22T03:47:46Z emaczen: From the list (rose red) how can I get ((lily white) (buttercup yellow))?
2015-02-22T03:48:02Z emaczen: I thought it would be (cddr '(rose red))
2015-02-22T03:48:40Z |3b|: you can't, unless you kept track of the containing list elsewhere
2015-02-22T03:49:10Z |3b|: that cons could be stored in multiple lists
2015-02-22T03:49:44Z emaczen: |3b|: I keep thinking that I have access to the pointers at each element in the list like I would in C
2015-02-22T03:49:58Z |3b|: you are looking at a value, not the list at that point though
2015-02-22T03:49:59Z emaczen: I need to implement my own tiny lisp one day...
2015-02-22T03:50:20Z emaczen: |3b|: Is that just how mapcar works?
2015-02-22T03:50:47Z Bike: in C you might have struct cons { void *car, *cdr; }, and you want to get the cons back from just having the car. which you can't, i mean what if it's an int or something.
2015-02-22T03:50:58Z |3b|: not sure it is "just", since that is more or less the definition of mapcar
2015-02-22T03:51:52Z emaczen: |3b| I remember one of the map functions will give you '(1 2 3) '(2 3) '(3) or something like that -- which is what I need
2015-02-22T03:52:02Z |3b|: clhs maplist
2015-02-22T03:52:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2015-02-22T03:52:16Z |3b| was about to suggest that might be useful
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2015-02-22T03:52:37Z axion: the pros arrived. my work here is done
2015-02-22T03:53:09Z emaczen: hahah thanks axion: I appreciate help from anyone!
2015-02-22T03:53:29Z emaczen: Bike: Yeah, I'm no C expert neither
2015-02-22T03:53:59Z hungnv96: hello nvhung95
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2015-02-22T03:54:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-02-22T03:54:42Z axion: Good morning, beach
2015-02-22T03:54:54Z emaczen: morning beach
2015-02-22T03:55:22Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-02-22T03:55:46Z nyef considers remapping the "CapsLk" key to mod5.
2015-02-22T03:56:19Z axion: beach: how did the report go?
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2015-02-22T03:57:22Z beach: axion: Report?
2015-02-22T03:57:29Z axion: beach: i mean the paper I proof-read about sandboxing that was due soon
2015-02-22T03:57:41Z beach: Ah.  It is pretty much finished.
2015-02-22T03:57:47Z beach: It should be submitted today.
2015-02-22T03:58:16Z beach: I am close to the 8-page limit now, so I can't expand it too much.
2015-02-22T03:58:35Z axion: aha
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2015-02-22T03:59:58Z beach: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2015-02-22T04:00:05Z beach: ^ is the current state.
2015-02-22T04:00:39Z beach: I think I won't change much before I submit.  It doesn't have to be perfect.  Only good enough for the referees to accept it.
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2015-02-22T04:05:07Z beach: And we submitted this one a few days ago: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf
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2015-02-22T04:06:01Z axion: beach: i really appreciate your sentence structure and proper use of punctuation, particularly commas
2015-02-22T04:06:16Z beach: Oh, thank you.
2015-02-22T04:06:17Z axion: i can offer just one improvement
2015-02-22T04:06:56Z axion: superscripts typically follow punctuation. in your case, you do not include end or mid-sentence punctuation when a superscript is encountered.
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2015-02-22T04:07:33Z beach: I see.  Do you have an example?
2015-02-22T04:07:52Z axion: (defmethod push-before )
2015-02-22T04:07:55Z axion: oops
2015-02-22T04:09:09Z beach: Sometimes I can convince my wife to proofread.  She is a professional technical writer and she has a PhD in English.  But she is usually too busy.
2015-02-22T04:09:10Z axion: First sentence of right column of page 4 - should be environment inheritance.6
2015-02-22T04:09:35Z beach: Yes, I see.
2015-02-22T04:09:42Z beach: 6 is a footnote?
2015-02-22T04:09:50Z axion: yes.
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2015-02-22T04:12:01Z beach: Yeah, definitely a missing period.  Thanks.
2015-02-22T04:12:35Z axion: whenever you have a footnote, if the preceding word requires punctuation, it should be before the superscript
2015-02-22T04:12:48Z beach: Noted.  Thanks.
2015-02-22T04:12:51Z axion: that's how i was taught anyway. i'm sure there are different opinions as with everything english
2015-02-22T04:13:28Z beach: axion: Aside from learning from my wife, I also have decades of experience correcting the English in papers by my French colleagues.  It sometimes makes me cry.
2015-02-22T04:13:45Z axion: hehe
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2015-02-22T04:14:53Z nyef: I shudder to think of the possibility of native English speakers attempting to write academic papers in French.
2015-02-22T04:15:20Z beach: Yeah, that's a very different skill altogether.
2015-02-22T04:15:46Z beach: I wrote a few books in French, but I have an excellent co-author when I do that.
2015-02-22T04:16:48Z beach: http://www.dunod.com/informatique-multimedia/fondements-de-linformatique/architectures-des-machines/ouvrages-denseignement/architecture-de--0 for example.
2015-02-22T04:17:11Z nyef can't even read French with any reasonable amount of comprehension, let alone fluency.
2015-02-22T04:18:01Z nyef: ... "Logic gates, combinatorial circuits, binary arithmetic, sequential circuits, and memories"?
2015-02-22T04:18:15Z beach: See.  Easy enough.
2015-02-22T04:18:39Z nyef: Figuring out "Portes" took a couple of seconds, though.
2015-02-22T04:19:01Z nyef: And it's basically a list of technical terms, all of which I have cognates for.
2015-02-22T04:19:04Z beach: It is hard to know how technical terms are translated.
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2015-02-22T04:20:02Z nyef: I'm getting far, far less coverage on the descriptive text.
2015-02-22T04:20:05Z beach: For example: Ramasse-miettes is the name for "garbage collector" in French.  It is the tool that a waiter (in an expensive restaurant) uses to rake the crumbs off the table cloth.
2015-02-22T04:21:57Z nyef: "Where's my French dictionary? Oh, yeah, it's in the Attic. It's cold in there, nevermind."
2015-02-22T04:22:04Z beach: This one didn't require a co-author: http://www.amazon.com/Introduktion-till-Datavetenskap-Swedish-Edition/dp/1500380997 :)
2015-02-22T04:22:34Z beach: nyef: wordreference.com is excellent!
2015-02-22T04:22:57Z nyef: ... I'm getting far, far less from this description than from the French description.
2015-02-22T04:23:20Z beach: Yeah.  Unless you know some Germanic language, that would be hard.
2015-02-22T04:23:50Z nyef: English IS Germanic... somewhat.
2015-02-22T04:24:17Z beach: And Latin, and Gaelic, and ...
2015-02-22T04:24:34Z nyef: French and greek words, german grammar, and a whole bunch of loanwords, approximately.
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2015-02-22T04:27:23Z nyef: Ah, right, Welsh! That's the other language that I need to get a dictionary for at some point.
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2015-02-22T04:27:57Z beach: Do you know some Welsh?
2015-02-22T04:28:19Z nyef: No.
2015-02-22T04:28:48Z nyef: I know a very little of a number of languages, but Welsh isn't one of them AFAIK.
2015-02-22T04:29:43Z nyef: I remember that spending about half an hour or so with Swahili was interesting, but I wound up forgetting all of it fairly quickly.
2015-02-22T04:34:10Z nyef: My family has a bit of a habit of collecting dictionaries. I also try to collect language-specific dictionaries and also grammars. Not so good about actually studying them, though.
2015-02-22T04:34:28Z beach: Funny!  I do the same.
2015-02-22T04:35:40Z emaczen: does values do the same thing as list? can I use them interchangeably?
2015-02-22T04:35:41Z beach: I am not very systematic about it, though.
2015-02-22T04:35:51Z beach: emaczen: No.
2015-02-22T04:35:57Z beach: emaczen: and No. :)
2015-02-22T04:36:12Z drmeister: Hello
2015-02-22T04:36:19Z nyef: emaczen: No, but (values-list (values ...)) should be approximately the same as (list ...).
2015-02-22T04:36:21Z emaczen: AFAIK values is for returning multiple values from a function
2015-02-22T04:36:21Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-02-22T04:36:48Z emaczen: if I am only using a list with (values ...) should it be the same?
2015-02-22T04:36:54Z beach: emaczen: Multiple values don't allocate memory in a good implementation.
2015-02-22T04:37:09Z emaczen: beach: ahhh
2015-02-22T04:38:18Z beach: emaczen: And if you do something like (setq var (ff ...)) where ff returns multiple values, only the first one is kept and assigned to var.
2015-02-22T04:38:21Z drmeister: I'll implement u-p tomorrow. I think I have the shape of it.
2015-02-22T04:38:52Z beach: drmeister: Great!  So can you summarize how much you have done so far?
2015-02-22T04:39:11Z drmeister: Wee
2015-02-22T04:39:15Z nyef: There's fun and games to be had with (symbol-macrolet ((var (values ...))) (setf var (values ...))), though.
2015-02-22T04:39:30Z emaczen: thanks beach: I hope I can remember all of this... lol
2015-02-22T04:40:20Z drmeister: I'm implementing unwind-protect-ast and unwind-protect-env
2015-02-22T04:40:56Z beach: drmeister: What is unwind-protect-env?
2015-02-22T04:41:15Z drmeister: All FUNCALLS in u-p protected forms become invoke-instruction in hir
2015-02-22T04:41:59Z drmeister: It keeps track of cleanup code for nested u-p
2015-02-22T04:42:57Z drmeister: I haven't fully implemented it or tested yet but it follows the scheme I currently use
2015-02-22T04:43:58Z drmeister: But rather than code it straight up in llvm-ir I'm representing it in AST and hir
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2015-02-22T04:45:01Z beach: I think that's wise.  Manipulating the AST notation is much easier.
2015-02-22T04:45:22Z drmeister: I appreciate your two function solution to make things easier but I'll go through some pain that avoids closures
2015-02-22T04:45:59Z brucem: nyef: and now I ended up reading the virtio PCI specification.
2015-02-22T04:46:34Z drmeister: Nyef had an interesting idea about using dynamic extent closures. Do you have any thoughts on how that would be implemented?
2015-02-22T04:46:47Z emaczen: can someone tell me where I can find the original scheme document from the 80s?
2015-02-22T04:47:01Z emaczen: I have the R5RS in *info*
2015-02-22T04:47:11Z beach: drmeister: It should not be hard, but it is at a lower level, and it requires some analyses that are not in there yet.
2015-02-22T04:47:31Z nyef: emaczen: One of Steele's "Lambda the Ultimate" papers?
2015-02-22T04:48:02Z Bike: library dot readscheme has basically everything
2015-02-22T04:48:17Z Bike: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html
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2015-02-22T04:50:09Z drmeister: Somebody posted about clasp on hacker news. I appreciate it but all of the comments are so off topic. No good feedback.
2015-02-22T04:50:51Z beach: drmeister: What did they say?
2015-02-22T04:51:15Z beach: drmeister: Welcome to the Internet where anyone can say anything.
2015-02-22T04:51:17Z nyef: So, I just realized that the stunt I pulled with SYMBOL-MACROLET, VALUES, and SETF in nq-clim/geometry/standard-rectangle-set is the same sort of thing that I did with CLIM transformations in LaTeX a few years ago.
2015-02-22T04:52:14Z beach: drmeister: What do CLIM transformations have to do with LaTeX?
2015-02-22T04:52:19Z beach: er, nyef
2015-02-22T04:52:21Z drmeister: The article just pointed to the github page. The responses don't say much of relevance.
2015-02-22T04:52:23Z nyef: https://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png
2015-02-22T04:52:58Z nyef: That's basically half a decade old by now.
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2015-02-22T04:53:53Z beach: nyef: Not sure what I am looking at.
2015-02-22T04:54:09Z drmeister: Going to bed - it's been a long day
2015-02-22T04:54:29Z beach: Sleep well, drmeister.
2015-02-22T04:54:44Z nyef: Indeed. drmeister: sleep well.
2015-02-22T04:54:45Z Bike: nice screenshot command
2015-02-22T04:55:00Z nyef: Bike: Thanks.
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2015-02-22T04:56:10Z nyef: beach: The basic idea is that that's lisp code with a special reader macro for some parts which kicks over to a syntax based on LaTeX math.
2015-02-22T04:56:42Z beach: I see.  Neat!
2015-02-22T04:56:53Z nyef: So I had auctex installed...
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2015-02-22T04:58:31Z nyef: I know how to make it compile, I don't have any confidence in being able to make emacs be able to edit it reasonably, and I mostly don't do things that lend themselves to such presentation.
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2015-02-22T04:59:23Z Bike: maybe it would be nice for comments.
2015-02-22T05:00:32Z nyef: Basically the same thing: I mostly don't do things that lend themselves to such presentation.
2015-02-22T05:01:03Z Bike: well, i was thinking, like, the various arithmetic optimizations in sbcl that are full of knuth.
2015-02-22T05:01:18Z Bike: though i gather you don't work on those parts very much
2015-02-22T05:01:41Z nyef: Right. So much lossage elsewhere in the system.
2015-02-22T05:04:25Z faheem_: drmeister: there is no such thing as bad publicity. You could point people on the HN thread to #clasp here, so they have a place to go if they have questions.
2015-02-22T05:04:27Z nyef: For example, there's a way to confuse the stack analysis so that it will blow up if you do something involving non-local exits and a control-flow loop in dead code.
2015-02-22T05:05:26Z Bike: ha.
2015-02-22T05:05:43Z nyef: faheem_: There IS such thing as bad publicity. Just ask OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson, Pee-Wee Herman...
2015-02-22T05:07:15Z faheem_: nyef: Chris hasn't killed anyone. Nor has he been accused of "improper" behavior.
2015-02-22T05:07:47Z Bike: scandal: schafmeister accused of selling C++ to minors
2015-02-22T05:07:54Z faheem_: Though maybe I should have posted this on #clasp.
2015-02-22T05:08:06Z faheem_: Bike: :-)
2015-02-22T05:08:14Z nyef: faheem_: "This is not bad publicity" is not the same as "there is no such thing as bad publicity".
2015-02-22T05:08:37Z faheem_: Maybe it would be a better world if C++ was treated like alchohol and cigarettes
2015-02-22T05:08:53Z faheem_: nyef: fine, I withdraw my comment. Happy?
2015-02-22T05:09:18Z nyef: C++ is treated like alcohol and cigarettes: You can't buy C++ at CVS either. d-:
2015-02-22T05:09:22Z faheem_: I hereby declare that, yes, there *is* such a thing as bad publicity. But a posting on HN about Clasp isn't it.
2015-02-22T05:09:35Z faheem_: nyef: lol
2015-02-22T05:10:08Z faheem_: Actually, HN is a relatively clueful tech site. Most of the time.
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2015-02-22T05:24:34Z ChoHag: I'm playing around with some lisp code whose source has lines beginning #-, #+ which appear to be somewhat akin to CPP's #ifdef, #ifndef, but I can't find an explanation of them in the documentation as searching is proving fruitless.
2015-02-22T05:25:04Z ChoHag: Does anyone know what they are and where they're documented?
2015-02-22T05:25:04Z beach: clhs #+
2015-02-22T05:25:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2015-02-22T05:26:05Z ChoHag: Ta muchly.
2015-02-22T05:26:14Z beach: Anytime.
2015-02-22T05:26:19Z ChoHag: Ah I see here it's the sharp.
2015-02-22T05:26:26Z ChoHag: # has too many names.
2015-02-22T05:29:03Z beach: Indeed.
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2015-02-22T06:10:26Z beach: So if I implement CATCH, THROW, UNWIND-PROTECT, and PROGV as macros expanding to function calls, what should I call the functions? CATCH-FUNCTION, THROW-FUNCTION, etc?
2015-02-22T06:10:51Z beach: CALL-WITH-CATCH doesn't sound right.
2015-02-22T06:12:20Z beach: CALL-WITH and INVOKE-WITH are probably only for macros of type WITH-...
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2015-02-22T06:23:45Z stratomula: beach: You could go with CATCH#, THROW#, etc. with the `#' being a mnemonic for `function' and showing the link in implementation between macro and function. Otherwise it might sound like you are trying to catch or throw a function.
2015-02-22T06:24:25Z beach: Hmm.  Good point.
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2015-02-22T06:36:12Z beach: What was that supposed to be?
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2015-02-22T06:37:37Z hungnv95: qweqweqweasd
2015-02-22T06:37:42Z hungnv95: qweqweqweasd
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2015-02-22T06:37:46Z beach: hungnv95: What do you think you are doing?
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2015-02-22T06:47:01Z ChoHag: With DISPLAY set to 127.0.0.1:100 (via a (non-ssh) tunnel), running clfswm from clisp (and thus clx) returns the error 'No protocol specified'.
2015-02-22T06:47:33Z ChoHag: The intarwebs suggests that this is because of incorrectly using xauthority data, and indeed when I run 'xhost +' clfswm starts as expected.
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2015-02-22T06:48:09Z ChoHag: Any idea what I can do to make clx use xauthority correctly?
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2015-02-22T06:49:03Z ChoHag: My lisp exposure comes from books and emacs, so i'
2015-02-22T06:49:17Z ChoHag: I'm somewhat at a loss. clfswm was supposed to be my way of forcing myself to use lisp more.
2015-02-22T06:49:45Z beach: What is clfswm?  A window manager?
2015-02-22T06:49:48Z ChoHag: Yes.
2015-02-22T06:50:19Z beach: As I recall, CLISP CLX is written in C.  You might be better off with a different implementation of Common Lisp.
2015-02-22T06:50:29Z rszeno: 'X11UseLocalHost no' doesn't help?
2015-02-22T06:51:20Z ChoHag: X11UseLocalHost where?
2015-02-22T06:52:08Z H4ns: jackdaniel: thank you for becoming the new ecl maintainer!  it is good to see this implementation not die
2015-02-22T06:52:20Z beach: ChoHag: Did you have a particular reason for choosing CLISP?
2015-02-22T06:52:25Z ChoHag: Ah it's an ssh thing. SSH is not involved.
2015-02-22T06:52:37Z rszeno: in ssh config
2015-02-22T06:52:42Z ChoHag: beach: It's the first one where I got clfswm to run.
2015-02-22T06:52:53Z beach: I see.  OK.
2015-02-22T06:53:05Z ChoHag: The automagic compile process wasn't so I had to do it by hand, mostly by guesswork from reading its load.lisp.
2015-02-22T06:53:34Z ChoHag: It's possible other lisps may work too but I'm using OpenBSD in which normally-working things don't.
2015-02-22T06:55:15Z rszeno: i don't think is a lisp issue but forwarding, but i'm not sure
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2015-02-22T07:00:33Z jackdaniel: H4ns: it's my pleasure. I only hope i wont fuck up something irreversibly
2015-02-22T07:00:35Z jackdaniel: ;)
2015-02-22T07:00:56Z H4ns: jackdaniel: git does not forget :)
2015-02-22T07:01:39Z ChoHag: It's not lisp per se, but clx incorrectly not- or mis-using xauth.
2015-02-22T07:01:53Z ChoHag: SSH is not being used, so no ssh forwarding issues.
2015-02-22T07:02:13Z ChoHag: Where is the 'official' clx package? I've had the same thing happen now in clisp and sbcl.
2015-02-22T07:02:17Z rszeno: ok, sorry, :)
2015-02-22T07:02:17Z ChoHag: s/package/source/
2015-02-22T07:03:02Z beach: ChoHag: How did you install it?
2015-02-22T07:03:39Z ChoHag: git clone git://github.com/sharplispers/clx.git, as per clfswm's load.lisp
2015-02-22T07:05:31Z beach: I suppose those are the sources you need to look at.  I don't think there is anything 'official' with CLX.
2015-02-22T07:05:51Z ChoHag: Heh.
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2015-02-22T07:06:33Z beach: ChoHag: You are asking for problems, though.  Unusual OS, unusual Common Lisp implementation, unusual window manager, not using Quicklisp, etc., etc.
2015-02-22T07:07:00Z ChoHag: Problems are where the fun is.
2015-02-22T07:07:25Z beach: I am just explaining why it might be hard to give you help.
2015-02-22T07:07:31Z ChoHag: What counts as a usual implementation?
2015-02-22T07:07:45Z beach: Most people here probably use SBCL.
2015-02-22T07:08:12Z beach: On GNU/Linux.  Using Quicklisp to install systems.
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2015-02-22T07:09:33Z beach: ChoHag: But I see you have been out of the loop since 2012, so you probably haven't kept up. :)
2015-02-22T07:10:02Z ChoHag: I haven't got in the loop yet.
2015-02-22T07:10:06Z ChoHag: What's special about 2012?
2015-02-22T07:10:15Z beach: That's when you last came here.
2015-02-22T07:10:42Z beach: 12.08.22:08:47:36 --- part: ChoHag left #lisp
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2015-02-22T07:13:17Z ChoHag: ... using this nick.
2015-02-22T07:13:31Z beach: Fair enough.
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2015-02-22T07:13:35Z ChoHag: Right I'm pretty certain this is CLX' fault. I've exactly the same symptoms in sbcl and ecl.
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2015-02-22T07:14:43Z ChoHag: And unless the lisp in built in a weird way, I'm about as sure as I can be that openbsd and X aren't doing anything weird(er than usual).
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2015-02-22T07:16:04Z ChoHag: But what seems to be the function to open the display seemed to correctly read .Xauthority when I stepped through it by hand (literally by hand - using copy/paste...)
2015-02-22T07:16:43Z ChoHag: Can I do debugging similar to plain old languages with print statements and/or stepping through/over commands?
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2015-02-22T07:17:23Z ChoHag: At the very least I want to see what path through the code is taken.
2015-02-22T07:17:29Z beach: clhs step
2015-02-22T07:17:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm
2015-02-22T07:19:30Z beach: ChoHag: Free Common Lisp implementations have fairly rudimentary debuggers.
2015-02-22T07:19:56Z ChoHag: I'm used to that.
2015-02-22T07:20:05Z beach: ChoHag: What I sometimes do is put explicit (BREAK)s in the code, and then I C-c C-c the function.
2015-02-22T07:20:16Z beach: It is not ideal, but it works.
2015-02-22T07:21:00Z beach: But, yeah, you can use FORMAT if you want.
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2015-02-22T07:22:05Z ChoHag: I'm planning to do something like that as soon as I work out where it enters clx.
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2015-02-22T07:22:38Z beach: You can use TRACE for that.
2015-02-22T07:22:42Z beach: clhs trace
2015-02-22T07:22:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm
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2015-02-22T07:39:08Z ChoHag: Ah ha!
2015-02-22T07:39:21Z ChoHag: I think clfswm is telling clx the wrong thing.
2015-02-22T07:39:53Z ChoHag: There's a 'protocol' variable which clx should determine on its own (and calculates it as :internet) but which clfswm sets to nil.
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2015-02-22T07:48:44Z beach: ChoHag: Progress!  Nice!
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2015-02-22T07:54:59Z rszeno is probable something containing hostname and MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1
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2015-02-22T08:27:36Z flip214: jackdaniel: thanks for helping on ECL.
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2015-02-22T08:33:30Z beach: jackdaniel: Where is the repository?
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2015-02-22T08:37:48Z jjkola: hi
2015-02-22T08:40:17Z beach: Hello jjkola
2015-02-22T08:41:10Z Quadrescence has been thinking about how one might compile C into Lisp without totally ruining the expectations of a more or less traditional C programmer.
2015-02-22T08:43:49Z Quadrescence: It seems to get exceedingly difficult with arrays and casting.
2015-02-22T08:43:52Z beach: Quadrescence: Can you give some examples of those expectations that might be ruined if one doesn't pay attention?
2015-02-22T08:44:09Z Quadrescence: beach, Like having sizeof (every type) == 1.
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2015-02-22T08:44:50Z beach: You mean that that would be a VIOLATION of the expectation, rather than THE expectation, right?
2015-02-22T08:44:57Z Quadrescence: Yes.
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2015-02-22T08:45:41Z beach: Quadrescence: It's a nice idea.  They did it for the Lisp Machine.  You might have a look at how they did it.
2015-02-22T08:46:14Z beach: Well, I am not sure they compiled it into Lisp, but they made it run on the Lisp machine in any case.
2015-02-22T08:46:25Z Quadrescence: beach, Yeah, I was looking through the source a bit. Both ZETA C and Symbolics C. The former took advantage of underlying memory layout of various objects.
2015-02-22T08:48:52Z Quadrescence: Anyway, I must sleep. Maybe a topic for a later time. Goodnight.
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2015-02-22T08:57:43Z ChoHag: Given a function called as (foo :bar baz), how can I adjust it so that ':bar baz' is only present if baz != nil?
2015-02-22T08:59:46Z ChoHag: Or more specifically, function foo, with argument bar, calls function inner-foo and passes bar to it. How can I only pass bar on to inner-foo if it was supplied in the foo call, and rely on inner-foo's own default if it wasn't?
2015-02-22T09:01:18Z clintm: (foo (or thing default-value))?  or maybe I'm tired and not reading that right.
2015-02-22T09:02:14Z clintm: guess that would be (inner-foo (or supplied default-value))
2015-02-22T09:03:12Z ChoHag: I don't think that's right.
2015-02-22T09:04:03Z clintm: Maybe not... I'll wait with you for a competent answer and we'll both learn...
2015-02-22T09:04:04Z ChoHag: The function I call is defined as: (defun main (&key (display (or (getenv "DISPLAY") ":0"))) ... )
2015-02-22T09:04:28Z ChoHag: It then calls (main-unprotected :display display :other args :go here)
2015-02-22T09:04:49Z ChoHag: I want to change it so that if main is called without :display, it calls main-unprotected without display.
2015-02-22T09:05:09Z ChoHag: main-unprotected provides its own (identical...) default value.
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2015-02-22T09:06:12Z ChoHag: I could just wrap 2 main-unprotected calls in an (if) but that'll get wildly out of control if I want to do that to more than one parameter.
2015-02-22T09:08:19Z beach: ChoHag: When you say "function foo, with argument bar", do you mean that bar is a keyword argument?
2015-02-22T09:08:39Z ChoHag: I did try changing ``:display display'' in the (main-unprotected) call to ``(if display '(:display display) nil)'' but that complained that nil wasn't a pair.
2015-02-22T09:09:41Z beach: ChoHag: (defun foo (&key (bar nil bar-p)) (if bar-p (inner-bar :bar bar) (inner-bar)))
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2015-02-22T09:10:53Z ChoHag: YEs. Keyword argument.
2015-02-22T09:11:44Z beach: ChoHag: So use the form (argument initial-value supplied-p) of the keyword parameter.
2015-02-22T09:12:00Z beach: Then you can use supplied-p to check whether the argument was supplied.
2015-02-22T09:12:45Z beach: If you have many of those, you can do (defun foo (&rest args &key (...) (...)) ...)
2015-02-22T09:12:54Z beach: Then you can explicitly manipulate ARGS.
2015-02-22T09:12:55Z ChoHag: Right. Yes that'll work, but if there's a :bar and a :baz suddenly I have a 4 different ways of calling inner-bar.
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2015-02-22T09:14:02Z beach: ChoHag: Check the supplied-p of each one, use REMF to remove from ARGS.  Finally, call (apply #'inner-foo remaining-args).
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2015-02-22T09:14:32Z beach: ChoHag: Then, the amount of code is linear in the number of arguments you want to remove if supplied.
2015-02-22T09:14:41Z beach: You can't do better than that.
2015-02-22T09:14:55Z ChoHag: I shall give that a go.
2015-02-22T09:15:48Z beach: For each argument you want to handle that way, you would do (when supplied-p (loop while (remf :arg remaining-args))).
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2015-02-22T09:16:11Z beach: Because there could be several occurrences of :arg arg in the list of arguments.
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2015-02-22T09:46:45Z jackdaniel: beach: https://gitorious.org/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git
2015-02-22T09:50:49Z jackdaniel: flip214: :-)
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2015-02-22T09:55:48Z beach: Thanks.
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2015-02-22T10:08:27Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: how am I supposed to use modules storage so that it would solve tasks it meant to solve? I see that you don't use it extensively in radiance so I was wondering what's it purpose then if you can just have dynamic variables set up. The documentation says one can save some kind of metadata there but I can't imagine any cases where that might be useful.
2015-02-22T10:09:04Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: It's mostly useful for module system extensions like the interfaces or hooks.
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2015-02-22T10:10:00Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: It's not useful for someone who writes a module themselves as they can just use specials, yes.
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2015-02-22T10:11:19Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. Thanks.
2015-02-22T10:11:40Z Shinmera: For example the interfaces extension uses it to keep track if a module is an implementation of an interface.
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2015-02-22T10:13:46Z Shinmera: And Radiance uses it to keep track of which pages a module occupies so that it can free them again in case a module gets deleted, as well as for introspection purposes.
2015-02-22T10:14:58Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2015-02-22T10:26:03Z puchacz: hi, what's the recommended tutorial for less frequently used forms, like "the", "deftype" some compiler hints in "declare" etc. shall I just go through clhs?
2015-02-22T10:26:22Z puchacz: I don't have to use them but I still encounter them in other people's code
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2015-02-22T10:27:46Z puchacz: clhs is authoritative but it is not very convenient material to read as tutorial, linearly
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2015-02-22T10:28:14Z axion: from my understanding, all of those are used mostly for optimization purposes, and can be ignored if you're just trying to understand what the code does
2015-02-22T10:28:53Z puchacz: I just want to close up gaps in my common lisp understanding
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2015-02-22T10:29:28Z puchacz: in less radical way than hacking sbcl internals :-)
2015-02-22T10:30:08Z axion: there isnt a better go-to tutorial than clhs. it's the go-to place that is always correct :)
2015-02-22T10:30:19Z puchacz: oki :)
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2015-02-22T10:34:12Z axion: agreed, clhs can be so descriptive that it is hard to make sense sometimes, as somewhat of a beginner myself, but really there is no better source for how to use something. if you are still stumped after reading about something there, just ask a more specific question in here
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2015-02-22T10:44:54Z beach: puchacz: You might want to try CLtL2.  It is sometimes a bit more pedagogical than the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2015-02-22T10:45:29Z Shinmera: I don't think I ever even read up on the forms you mentioned. They seemed pretty much straight-forward to me.
2015-02-22T10:45:32Z Shinmera: What's confusing you about them?
2015-02-22T10:47:02Z beach: puchacz: For DEFTYPE, see: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node51.html#SECTION00870000000000000000
2015-02-22T10:47:12Z beach: puchacz: And you can compare it to the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry.
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2015-02-22T10:48:06Z puchacz: Shinmera - I will read on them and they will not be confusing :)
2015-02-22T10:48:19Z puchacz: beach, ok, I will check cltl2 then
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2015-02-22T11:30:13Z Ralt: hi
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2015-02-22T11:32:07Z beach: Hello Ralt.
2015-02-22T11:34:11Z Ralt: beach: how is sunday going?
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2015-02-22T11:34:31Z beach: Not bad so far.  You?
2015-02-22T11:34:32Z Ralt: (it was more a generic "hi", not special discussion needed.)
2015-02-22T11:34:39Z Ralt: pretty good
2015-02-22T11:34:50Z Ralt: working on a lisp http proxy, having fun with lists et al.
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2015-02-22T11:37:38Z Ralt: trying to make only non-destructive actions
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2015-02-22T11:37:58Z beach: Just for the hell of it?
2015-02-22T11:38:07Z Ralt: I end up with quite some (when foo (return-from bar baz))
2015-02-22T11:38:13Z Ralt: beach: yeah
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2015-02-22T11:38:58Z Ralt: seeing if it makes for cleaner code
2015-02-22T11:39:13Z Ralt: and, well, it's true that it's a lot more recursion
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2015-02-22T11:40:53Z Ralt: it's pretty fun tbh.
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2015-02-22T12:10:17Z beach: There.  The environment paper has been submitted.
2015-02-22T12:10:48Z beach: Now, if they give us a deadline extension, I have a week to work on another submission.
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2015-02-22T12:40:07Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: if I hasn't run out of questions for today yet, here's another one concerning style: I see that you use #: to name modules but plain symbols to name interfaces. Since interfaces create packages, which type of name should I opt for (the one I use for packages or normal one)?
2015-02-22T12:40:35Z Shinmera: Packages use strings for the names.
2015-02-22T12:40:45Z Shinmera: So whether you use #: or a symbol or an upcase string should not matter.
2015-02-22T12:40:52Z Shinmera: *or an interned symbol
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2015-02-22T12:41:49Z Shinmera: I got used to using #: for package forms and since DEFINE-MODULE is an alias for that I also use #: there.
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2015-02-22T12:42:23Z Shinmera: Interface definitions look weird to me since you wouldn't be using #: for the component definition names too, so.
2015-02-22T12:42:34Z Shinmera: But you can of course do whatever you like better.
2015-02-22T12:43:46Z hitecnologys_: I see. I'll stick to plain symbols then since they look most naturally to me there.
2015-02-22T12:43:55Z Shinmera: Yeah.
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2015-02-22T12:48:55Z monod: hello, is there anyone who can tell me how to set SLIME In Emacs to make it use the clisp implementation of common lisp?
2015-02-22T12:50:27Z hitecnologys: monod: I think it's inferior-lisp-program.
2015-02-22T12:50:36Z beach: (setq inferior-lisp-program "path-to-clisp") in your .emacs.
2015-02-22T12:50:49Z monod: I'll try and look for that, thanks
2015-02-22T12:51:14Z beach: monod: Also, please use Quicklisp to install your SLIME.
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2015-02-22T12:51:28Z monod: oh god.. I didn't know that, beach
2015-02-22T12:51:43Z monod: I already installed it with yum install emacs-slime
2015-02-22T12:51:48Z hitecnologys: "quicklisp-slime-helper" that is.
2015-02-22T12:51:54Z beach: The name of the system is quicklisp-slime-helper as I recall.
2015-02-22T12:52:27Z beach: That way you also get a form to put in your .emacs to start SLIME.
2015-02-22T12:53:20Z monod: I can't find that with yum info <package name>
2015-02-22T12:53:30Z monod: 'yum info <package name>', I mean
2015-02-22T12:53:37Z hitecnologys: It's in Quicklisp.
2015-02-22T12:53:38Z Shinmera: You don't install it with yum, you use quicklisp.
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2015-02-22T12:53:56Z beach: monod: http://www.quicklisp.org/
2015-02-22T12:53:59Z hitecnologys: monod: http://quicklisp.org
2015-02-22T12:54:06Z hitecnologys: Bleh.
2015-02-22T12:54:14Z beach: Sorry! :)
2015-02-22T12:54:22Z monod: the public beta link, beach?
2015-02-22T12:54:29Z beach: Yes.
2015-02-22T12:54:31Z monod: (thanks anyway hitecnologys :) )
2015-02-22T12:54:33Z hitecnologys: beach: no, it's me. Ping is a bitch.
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2015-02-22T12:55:26Z Shinmera: Colleen: quicklisp
2015-02-22T12:55:26Z Colleen: "quicklisp": An easy to use and the de facto standard library manager for Common Lisp. Installation instructions can be found on http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2015-02-22T12:56:02Z monod: uhm
2015-02-22T12:56:03Z hitecnologys: Oh, I didn't know about that bot.
2015-02-22T12:56:17Z monod: the "de facto" standard library for CL, huh?
2015-02-22T12:56:30Z Shinmera: library manager.
2015-02-22T12:56:38Z monod: how do I load the quicklisp.lisp file into emacs? :3
2015-02-22T12:56:46Z hitecnologys: monod: everybody uses it hence de facto.
2015-02-22T12:56:49Z Shinmera: You don't load it into emacs, you load it with your CL implementation.
2015-02-22T12:57:04Z monod: oh, okk Shinmera, you're right
2015-02-22T12:57:09Z monod: (load file.lisp) kinda?
2015-02-22T12:57:13Z monod: :3
2015-02-22T12:57:16Z Shinmera: It says it right on the beta page.
2015-02-22T12:57:18Z Shinmera: Just read it.
2015-02-22T12:57:26Z monod: oh really?? Sorry, didn't notice
2015-02-22T12:57:27Z hitecnologys: monod: you forgot quotes.
2015-02-22T12:57:48Z monod: (load 'file.lisp), like this? hitecnologys
2015-02-22T12:57:58Z hitecnologys: monod: nope, string quotes.
2015-02-22T12:58:09Z hitecnologys: monod: LOAD takes pathname specifier.
2015-02-22T12:58:14Z hitecnologys: clhs pathname specifier
2015-02-22T12:58:25Z hitecnologys: clhs pathname
2015-02-22T12:58:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pn.htm
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2015-02-22T12:58:39Z hitecnologys: Hmm. Maybe it was called differently.
2015-02-22T12:58:45Z Shinmera: monod: (load "quicklisp.lisp")
2015-02-22T12:58:47Z monod: ok, string quotes.
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2015-02-22T12:59:14Z hitecnologys: It's designator, not specifier.
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2015-02-22T12:59:38Z monod: so, when I load that file into clisp, my clisp system-wide implementation will be set up with this library manager?
2015-02-22T12:59:46Z Shinmera: No
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2015-02-22T13:01:35Z monod: Shinmera, why am I loading the file then?
2015-02-22T13:02:26Z Shinmera: I don't understand what's so hard about following the instructions on the page.
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2015-02-22T13:03:01Z Shinmera: You're loading the file to install it, but just loading it won't install it directly.
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2015-02-22T13:03:16Z monod: That's what I was asking!
2015-02-22T13:04:03Z monod: So, when I *install* it, my system-wide clisp will have that library manager set up?
2015-02-22T13:04:15Z monod: (hopefully yes)
2015-02-22T13:04:21Z Shinmera: No, quicklisp is on a per-user basis by default.
2015-02-22T13:04:51Z monod: Uh, ok
2015-02-22T13:05:19Z Shinmera: Installing it system-wide would require administrative privileges, which is not something that's easy to do cross-platform.
2015-02-22T13:08:29Z monod: Shinmera, alright
2015-02-22T13:09:08Z monod: Shinmera, I don't understand what 'vecto' is and why I am going to install it :/
2015-02-22T13:09:37Z Shinmera: That part illustrates how to use quicklisp.
2015-02-22T13:09:42Z monod: oh lol
2015-02-22T13:09:50Z Shinmera: It exemplifies loading a library.
2015-02-22T13:09:58Z monod: So I don't necessarily need that one
2015-02-22T13:10:03Z monod: Thanks ^_^
2015-02-22T13:10:19Z Shinmera: You will want the (ql:add-to-init-file) though so that quicklisp is loaded automatically whenever you launch your implementation.
2015-02-22T13:10:40Z hitecnologys: monod: don't you read the *whole* manual before proceeding with its execution?
2015-02-22T13:11:09Z monod: hitecnologys, it depends
2015-02-22T13:11:10Z hitecnologys: I think I should start putting critical notes in the end to stop people from doing that.
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2015-02-22T13:11:32Z monod: hitecnologys, you wouldn't get any benefit by doing so :P
2015-02-22T13:11:46Z hitecnologys: monod: in long term, I would.
2015-02-22T13:12:12Z monod: hitecnologys, in the meanwhile newbies will get away from your manual and project altogether U_U
2015-02-22T13:12:23Z monod: hitecnologys, just joking
2015-02-22T13:12:35Z monod: hitecnologys, I think it's normal, for newbies...
2015-02-22T13:12:45Z monod: (I am such)
2015-02-22T13:12:50Z hitecnologys: monod: well, who needs users who can't read manuals?
2015-02-22T13:13:05Z monod: Corporations!
2015-02-22T13:13:31Z hitecnologys: monod: everybody was newbie some day, it's not bad thing. It's bad when you don't want to learn to stop being one.
2015-02-22T13:13:56Z monod: hitecnologys, I see your point
2015-02-22T13:13:56Z Shinmera: beach: I think I can solve the setter problem as follows: Replace CL:SETF with my own that checks whether I'm using places that point to qt/q+ functions and transform those specially, while leaving everything else to expand to a standard CL:SETF call.
2015-02-22T13:14:15Z Shinmera: beach: I already do something similar with DEFMETHOD, so I guess another replacement won't make things much worse.
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2015-02-22T13:16:33Z monod: Shinmera, I've just found a problem/question: does (ql:add-to-init-file) know from the current session what the path to quicklisp.lisp is?
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2015-02-22T13:17:04Z Shinmera: monod: When you install quicklisp it creates a quicklisp directory in your home. The quicklisp.lisp is not needed anymore after that.
2015-02-22T13:17:17Z hitecnologys: monod: it uses default one which is $HOME/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp, unless you overwrite it.
2015-02-22T13:17:18Z Shinmera: monod: ADD-TO-INIT-FILE then just points to that quicklisp folder.
2015-02-22T13:17:40Z monod: Shinmera, hitecnologys, uh ok...
2015-02-22T13:17:56Z Shinmera: monod: check your home folder. There should be a quicklisp directory in it now.
2015-02-22T13:18:11Z hitecnologys: Oh, no, it's setup.lisp.
2015-02-22T13:18:19Z monod: Yes, indeed Shinmera
2015-02-22T13:18:28Z monod: And yes, hitecnologys
2015-02-22T13:18:37Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: the quicklisp.lisp is only the bootstrapper and isn't needed anymore afterwards.
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2015-02-22T13:19:07Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah. I just thought setup.lisp was named quicklisp.lisp too.
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2015-02-22T13:20:29Z faheem_: Hi everyone. Could one do operations on data frames like as follows in CL? If so, what library would one use?
2015-02-22T13:20:44Z faheem_: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kF5g8fj6
2015-02-22T13:21:15Z Xach: hitecnologys: it does not use a default
2015-02-22T13:21:15Z faheem_: The above uses the Pandas Python library, which is modelled on R's data frames.
2015-02-22T13:21:32Z Xach: hitecnologys: it uses the path from which quicklisp's setup file was loaded.
2015-02-22T13:22:03Z hitecnologys: Xach: oh. So, if I place quicklisp.lisp in /tmp, it'll install it there?
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2015-02-22T13:23:16Z Xach: hitecnologys: I am speaking specifically of (ql:add-to-init-file). The installation itself has a default, which can be overridden by using :path or by simply renaming the directory after installation.
2015-02-22T13:23:30Z Xach: But ql:add-to-init-file is locked to the path of loading.
2015-02-22T13:23:45Z hitecnologys: Xach: ah. I see.
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2015-02-22T13:29:10Z Ralt: is Edmund Weitz on this chan?
2015-02-22T13:29:41Z Ralt: I'd like to thank him for cl-ppcre and hunchentoot.
2015-02-22T13:30:05Z faheem_: Ralt: unlikely.
2015-02-22T13:30:20Z faheem_: send him an email, perhaps?
2015-02-22T13:31:08Z Xach: Ralt: no
2015-02-22T13:31:09Z Ralt: sure will
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2015-02-22T13:32:27Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online?
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2015-02-22T13:44:09Z Ralt: how can I make a symbol? If I do (intern "foo"), it creates '|foo|. I'd like to create 'foo
2015-02-22T13:44:38Z Shinmera: Intern is indeed the way to make a symbol.
2015-02-22T13:45:35Z Shinmera: An interned one, that is.
2015-02-22T13:45:59Z isoraqathedh: The name of the symbol 'foo is "FOO", uppercase.
2015-02-22T13:46:11Z Shinmera: isoraqathedh: only with standard read-case.
2015-02-22T13:46:18Z Ralt: oh
2015-02-22T13:46:23Z isoraqathedh: Which is what I am expecting is being used.
2015-02-22T13:46:31Z Shinmera: if read-case is :downcase or :preserve, 'foo will have a symbol-name of "foo".
2015-02-22T13:47:11Z Ralt: where is read-case defined?
2015-02-22T13:47:24Z Shinmera: clhs readtable-case
2015-02-22T13:47:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm
2015-02-22T13:47:48Z Ralt: thanks
2015-02-22T13:47:51Z Xach: make-symbol is the way to make a symbol for sure.
2015-02-22T13:48:02Z Xach: intern combines find-symbol, make-symbol, and import
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2015-02-22T13:48:47Z Ralt: Xach: I see
2015-02-22T13:49:03Z Ralt: make-symbol creates an uninterned symbol, and import imports it in the current package
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2015-02-22T13:50:26Z Xach: INTERN is the thing to use most of the time, though.
2015-02-22T13:50:46Z Ralt: yup, I won't bother making my own when it exists
2015-02-22T13:50:52Z Ralt: that'd be... stupid
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2015-02-22T14:09:15Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-02-22T14:10:02Z decent: morning!
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2015-02-22T14:19:06Z Shinmera: beach: Good news for you https://twitter.com/els2015/status/569493702965657601
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2015-02-22T14:21:40Z beach: Shinmera: Heh!  Thanks.  I can write two more papers in two weeks. :)
2015-02-22T14:21:55Z beach: Hello nyef.
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2015-02-22T14:24:40Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: there's a bug in your I-DEFUN. It doesn't work on SETF-functions which is bad. Should I report it on issues tracker?
2015-02-22T14:26:02Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I-DEFMETHOD is affected as well.
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2015-02-22T14:26:21Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: No need to report, I'll fix it now.
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2015-02-22T14:26:38Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: OK.
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2015-02-22T14:31:01Z Shinmera: Fix pushed.
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2015-02-22T14:32:17Z hitecnologys: Nice, thanks.
2015-02-22T14:32:43Z Shinmera: I personally don't use those wrappers, so I never noticed.
2015-02-22T14:32:56Z Shinmera: Right now I'm kind of puzzled as to why they even exist, to be honest.
2015-02-22T14:33:10Z Shinmera beats himself over the head for not writing proper docs at the time.
2015-02-22T14:33:21Z hitecnologys: Well, explicity is better than implicity.
2015-02-22T14:34:01Z hitecnologys: When you use DEFUN, it's not obvious if you're implementing interface or just writing function without knowledge of interface.
2015-02-22T14:34:07Z Shinmera: Writing (defun interface:function ...) is plenty explicit for me.
2015-02-22T14:34:13Z hitecnologys: They also provide additional level of compatability.
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2015-02-22T14:42:20Z monod: Hey guys!
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2015-02-22T14:42:49Z monod: I don't know why the (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") is taking a lot of time
2015-02-22T14:42:53Z monod: is that normal?
2015-02-22T14:43:24Z Shinmera: Should be fairly quick.
2015-02-22T14:43:35Z monod: :(
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2015-02-22T14:43:53Z monod: This is exactly what I typed: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")
2015-02-22T14:43:53Z oleo: version mismatch ?
2015-02-22T14:44:13Z oleo: emacs has its own slime
2015-02-22T14:44:18Z Shinmera: oleo: what are you talking about
2015-02-22T14:44:18Z oleo: check the versions
2015-02-22T14:44:24Z oleo: in /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp
2015-02-22T14:44:30Z Shinmera: That has absolutely nothing to do with loading a thing with QL.
2015-02-22T14:45:05Z Shinmera: monod: Can you load anything else?
2015-02-22T14:45:26Z Shinmera: monod: Like (ql:quickload "alexandria")
2015-02-22T14:45:28Z monod: May I try with ql:quickload "vecto")?
2015-02-22T14:45:32Z monod: oh ok
2015-02-22T14:45:48Z Shinmera: Vecto will do too, doesn't really matter.
2015-02-22T14:46:14Z monod: ohey, QL did wrote something to the console while I was not looking!
2015-02-22T14:46:19Z monod: there's an error:
2015-02-22T14:46:47Z monod: "Error while compiling /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/xref.lisp:"
2015-02-22T14:47:07Z monod: Shinmera, ^. And this: "OPEN: File #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/xref.lisp" does not exist"
2015-02-22T14:47:54Z nyef: That... seems an odd place for a quicklisp-installed library.
2015-02-22T14:48:02Z monod: xD
2015-02-22T14:48:16Z monod: I really have no idea :/
2015-02-22T14:48:58Z monod: I'll try to get my hands dirty
2015-02-22T14:49:00Z hitecnologys: monod: are you on CentOS?
2015-02-22T14:49:04Z monod: Fedora
2015-02-22T14:49:07Z monod: hitecnologys, ^
2015-02-22T14:49:12Z hitecnologys: Hmm.
2015-02-22T14:49:29Z hitecnologys: What does `sbcl --version` output?
2015-02-22T14:49:51Z hitecnologys: AH.
2015-02-22T14:50:01Z hitecnologys: I mean` clisp --version`.
2015-02-22T14:50:02Z monod: I "quickload"ed vecto with no errors, guys O_O
2015-02-22T14:50:41Z monod: hitecnologys, GNU CLISP 2.49+ (2010-07-17)
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2015-02-22T14:51:42Z hitecnologys: Well, that's latest. Which means ebuild is probably supported (though, it's been 5 years).
2015-02-22T14:51:50Z hitecnologys: Why do you want CLisp?
2015-02-22T14:51:59Z Shinmera: He probably doesn't
2015-02-22T14:52:08Z Shinmera: He just needs /a/ Common Lisp impl.
2015-02-22T14:52:23Z monod: ...and I thought I wanted it
2015-02-22T14:52:41Z Shinmera: clisp gets lots of newbies because its short form gets lots of google hits.
2015-02-22T14:52:42Z monod: because it's written in C
2015-02-22T14:52:44Z hitecnologys: CLISP is old and unmaintained. You don't want it unless you know what you're doing.
2015-02-22T14:52:52Z monod: oh ok
2015-02-22T14:52:55Z hitecnologys: And why would that matter?
2015-02-22T14:53:07Z hitecnologys: You're doing Lisp, not C. For C go with ECL.
2015-02-22T14:53:10Z Shinmera: Is SBCL on Fedora's repos?
2015-02-22T14:53:19Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yes, it is.
2015-02-22T14:53:27Z monod: I thought it would matter for a faster lisp environment
2015-02-22T14:53:27Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: at least CentOS has it.
2015-02-22T14:53:29Z Shinmera: I should set up a Fedora VM one of these days.
2015-02-22T14:53:40Z Shinmera: monod: SBCL is much faster than Clisp
2015-02-22T14:53:47Z hitecnologys: monod: it would be slower since CLISP compiles to byte-code.
2015-02-22T14:54:00Z hitecnologys: monod: SBCL compiles code down to machine instructions.
2015-02-22T14:54:16Z hitecnologys: monod: it's not as portable but it's *faster*. A lot faster.
2015-02-22T14:54:25Z monod: oh ok
2015-02-22T14:54:34Z Shinmera: Not that it'll matter to start out with either way.
2015-02-22T14:55:02Z Shinmera: monod: Try installing sbcl with yum and using that instead of clisp.
2015-02-22T14:55:02Z hitecnologys: Right.
2015-02-22T14:55:03Z monod: so, clisp is portable because it's compiled to byte-code; while sbcl is faster because it compiles to assembly instructions
2015-02-22T14:55:08Z monod: Alright
2015-02-22T14:55:38Z monod: I read that sbcl needs another implementation.. Am I right?
2015-02-22T14:55:47Z Shinmera: Only if you compile it from source.
2015-02-22T14:55:53Z jackdaniel: monod: if it's already compiled, you don't
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2015-02-22T14:56:36Z monod: ok.. And should I worry about this eventuality?
2015-02-22T14:56:45Z Shinmera: No
2015-02-22T14:56:47Z jackdaniel: monod: nope
2015-02-22T14:56:51Z monod: ok
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2015-02-22T14:57:04Z monod: Also: do I need to unload/uninstall quicklisp before "yum remove"ing clisp?
2015-02-22T14:57:10Z jackdaniel: no
2015-02-22T14:57:12Z Shinmera: No.
2015-02-22T14:57:15Z monod: Oukay.
2015-02-22T14:57:18Z jackdaniel: we are so negative
2015-02-22T14:57:20Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2015-02-22T14:57:24Z monod: hahahahah
2015-02-22T14:57:31Z Shinmera: Only if you equate "no" with negativity. I don't.
2015-02-22T14:57:42Z monod: He does NOT.
2015-02-22T14:57:44Z hitecnologys: False.
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2015-02-22T14:57:46Z monod: lol
2015-02-22T14:58:46Z monod: I'm back asap
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2015-02-22T14:59:59Z emaczen: does anyone know how to use Swank? What I wish to do is send some s-expressions from elisp to Common Lisp
2015-02-22T15:01:56Z Shinmera: emaczen: take a look at SLIME-EVAL.
2015-02-22T15:02:13Z Shinmera: or, slime-eval, rather.
2015-02-22T15:02:56Z emaczen: Ok, I'm taking a more careful look at the texinfo docs right now too.
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2015-02-22T15:09:59Z beach: drmeister: Around?
2015-02-22T15:11:35Z monod: I'm back
2015-02-22T15:12:32Z monod: 14M that unpack to 95M lol
2015-02-22T15:12:45Z monod: sbcl 1.1.12-1.fc20
2015-02-22T15:13:56Z hitecnologys: Well, it's old.
2015-02-22T15:14:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2015-02-22T15:14:08Z Shinmera: Not that old.
2015-02-22T15:14:11Z monod: :(
2015-02-22T15:14:15Z hitecnologys: Still quite old.
2015-02-22T15:14:22Z monod: My repos are up-to-date though :(
2015-02-22T15:14:25Z beach: monod: Where did you get it?
2015-02-22T15:14:29Z monod: yum install sbcl
2015-02-22T15:14:31Z hitecnologys: By the way, why topic hasn't been updated?
2015-02-22T15:14:36Z hitecnologys: SBCL 1.2.8 is out!
2015-02-22T15:14:39Z monod: yum install sbcl, beach
2015-02-22T15:14:47Z beach: monod: You should get it from sourceforge.
2015-02-22T15:15:07Z monod: are there .rpm packages to download on SF?
2015-02-22T15:15:14Z hitecnologys: beach: isn't it on GitHub now? Or it's unofficial mirror?
2015-02-22T15:15:20Z monod: (and if so, how do I manually install software on fedora?)
2015-02-22T15:15:26Z beach: hitecnologys: Oh, I didn't know.
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2015-02-22T15:15:38Z Shinmera: beach: Did you see my message earlier? (around 13:00 UTC)
2015-02-22T15:15:42Z hitecnologys: monod: you can compile it yourself with SBCL.
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2015-02-22T15:15:55Z beach: Shinmera: About the extension?
2015-02-22T15:16:00Z hitecnologys: beach: I'm not sure about it. That's why I'm asking.
2015-02-22T15:16:07Z Shinmera: beach: The SETF thing, yes
2015-02-22T15:16:18Z beach: No, I missed it.
2015-02-22T15:16:22Z beach: Hold on...
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2015-02-22T15:16:43Z hitecnologys: beach: well, sbcl.org points to SF so I guess it's mirror on GH.
2015-02-22T15:17:21Z Shinmera: monod: You can worry about upgrading later.
2015-02-22T15:17:28Z beach: Shinmera: That's a good solution.
2015-02-22T15:17:58Z Shinmera: beach: I'm always iffy about providing my own replacements for standard functions, but I guess in this case it won't hurt since I'm already replacing one.
2015-02-22T15:18:07Z beach: monod: There is no rpm, but there are instructions for installing it.  It is very easy.
2015-02-22T15:18:23Z Shinmera: monod: For now, start up sbcl and try (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
2015-02-22T15:18:25Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, it shouldn't be a problem.
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2015-02-22T15:18:39Z monod: Ok guys :) Thank you for your help!
2015-02-22T15:18:44Z monod: do I need that #p?
2015-02-22T15:19:06Z beach: Try without it. :)
2015-02-22T15:19:07Z Shinmera: Probably not.
2015-02-22T15:19:17Z monod: Indeed, I tried without it
2015-02-22T15:19:20Z monod: I thought I was wrong :D
2015-02-22T15:19:26Z monod: (it works though)
2015-02-22T15:19:59Z Shinmera: monod: Now you can try (ql:add-to-init-file) again to make quicklisp stick with SBCL.
2015-02-22T15:20:12Z monod: uhm right
2015-02-22T15:20:17Z Shinmera: monod: And then try (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") and see if it works now.
2015-02-22T15:20:23Z monod: yes
2015-02-22T15:20:29Z monod: I mean, yes I'll try
2015-02-22T15:20:32Z monod: I'm going to try
2015-02-22T15:21:48Z hitecnologys: When in doubt, blame CLISP.
2015-02-22T15:22:25Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I don't like to do that, but in this case I honestly didn't have any starting points to go on to solve the problem.
2015-02-22T15:22:37Z monod: hey btw
2015-02-22T15:22:41Z monod: I miss some thing of clisp :((
2015-02-22T15:22:45Z Shinmera: So getting a closer-to-normal environment hopefully helps.
2015-02-22T15:23:00Z beach: monod: What do you miss?
2015-02-22T15:23:08Z monod: 1) no autocompletion with Tab key 2) no console Ctrl+key shortcuts :(
2015-02-22T15:23:18Z beach: monod: SLIME will fix that for you.
2015-02-22T15:23:23Z monod: both? :)))
2015-02-22T15:23:24Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: that was an attempt to joke by quoting Xach's phrase passed though 's/puri/CLISP/'.
2015-02-22T15:23:31Z beach: monod: And much much more.
2015-02-22T15:23:34Z Shinmera: monod: You won't have to stick with the CLI for long, so no worries.
2015-02-22T15:23:46Z monod: Yay! \o/
2015-02-22T15:23:46Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I know.
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2015-02-22T15:24:02Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: ah, I see.
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2015-02-22T15:24:05Z monod: (OT: what's puri? :D:D)
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2015-02-22T15:24:07Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: To every joke there's a truth and I thought it'd be informative to react to that.
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2015-02-22T15:24:19Z Shinmera: monod: A library for parsing and managing URIs.
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2015-02-22T15:24:26Z monod: oh lol
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2015-02-22T15:24:45Z beach: monod: It's a kind of Indian bread.
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2015-02-22T15:25:06Z monod: beach, lolwut
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2015-02-22T15:25:10Z hitecnologys: monod: that was said during discussion of wrong behaviour of Drakma which is a library for making HTTP requests.
2015-02-22T15:25:19Z monod: btw slime is being downloaded and installed >:)
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2015-02-22T15:25:47Z monod: hitecnologys, lulz
2015-02-22T15:25:56Z monod: it returned an info message
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2015-02-22T15:26:02Z monod: To use, add this to your ~/.emacs:
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2015-02-22T15:26:09Z monod:   (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
2015-02-22T15:26:11Z monod: etc.
2015-02-22T15:26:31Z beach: Follow the instructions and put that in your .emacs
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2015-02-22T15:26:54Z monod: Alright, I'm going into that
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2015-02-22T15:28:54Z monod: I had to create the ~/.emacs file because it didn't exist before, I hope that's normal
2015-02-22T15:29:02Z Shinmera: On a different note: When a usocket stream gets a broken pipe, is there any way to close it still or should it just be discarded?
2015-02-22T15:29:22Z Shinmera: Trying to close it just gives me back the error of having a broken pipe.
2015-02-22T15:29:28Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: discard it.
2015-02-22T15:29:29Z beach: monod: It is normal only if you are a somewhat naive Emacs user.
2015-02-22T15:29:33Z Shinmera: Alright.
2015-02-22T15:29:44Z Shinmera: About time I fix that Colleen bug then. Only about a year or more too late!
2015-02-22T15:29:45Z monod: beach, consider that Emacs does not even ship preinstalled in Fedora O_O
2015-02-22T15:29:48Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: FD has been already freed by OS, IIRC.
2015-02-22T15:29:52Z monod: I had to install it today :/
2015-02-22T15:29:56Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Ah, that's good to know.
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2015-02-22T15:30:15Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: you might check /proc to be extra sure.
2015-02-22T15:30:28Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I don't want to get into os-specific stuff just for that
2015-02-22T15:30:37Z beach: monod: It is not installed by default on Ubuntu GNU/Linux either, but I can survive for at most a few minutes before installing it.
2015-02-22T15:30:50Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I mean to find out if it really closes or not.
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2015-02-22T15:31:03Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Yeah, I get what you mean.
2015-02-22T15:31:31Z monod: beach, I remembered that differently, I recalled it *was* installed by default on Ubuntu
2015-02-22T15:31:32Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: OK.
2015-02-22T15:31:44Z Shinmera: monod: It is not.
2015-02-22T15:32:00Z monod: Ukay ^^
2015-02-22T15:32:07Z beach: Whew!  I thought I was really losing it.
2015-02-22T15:32:25Z Shinmera: I have not come across a single distro that provides emacs out of the box.
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2015-02-22T15:32:55Z hitecnologys: EmacsOS does.
2015-02-22T15:33:16Z monod: strangest things are beginning to happen O_O
2015-02-22T15:33:36Z monod: my terminology terminal emulators are not getting the right keys as I type O_O
2015-02-22T15:34:06Z hitecnologys: Keymap is wrong?
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2015-02-22T15:34:37Z monod: hitecnologys, it began all of a sudden
2015-02-22T15:34:44Z monod: it always have worked fine before.
2015-02-22T15:34:52Z hitecnologys: monod: no idea then.
2015-02-22T15:34:59Z monod: Btw, I'm just "falling back" to gnome-terminal
2015-02-22T15:35:08Z monod: I don't care about terminology so much :/
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2015-02-22T15:37:56Z monod: Can these be appropriate? "which sbcl" = "/usr/bin/sbcl"..   => (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl")
2015-02-22T15:38:10Z hitecnologys: Yes.
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2015-02-22T15:38:18Z beach: Unusual.
2015-02-22T15:38:19Z Shinmera: That should be fine.
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2015-02-22T15:38:38Z Shinmera: As long as it's in your path just putting "sbcl" as inferior-lisp-program should work as well, iirc.
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2015-02-22T15:38:44Z hitecnologys: beach: what's so unusual about it?
2015-02-22T15:38:57Z beach: It is usually in /usr/local/bin/sbcl
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2015-02-22T15:39:07Z Shinmera: beach: That's if you install from source
2015-02-22T15:39:12Z beach: No.
2015-02-22T15:39:16Z beach: I never install from source.
2015-02-22T15:39:21Z hitecnologys: /usr/bin/sbcl for me.
2015-02-22T15:39:27Z beach: Wow.
2015-02-22T15:39:34Z hitecnologys: On Ubuntu boxes as well.
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2015-02-22T15:39:50Z Shinmera: debian and arch both install to /usr rather than /usr/local
2015-02-22T15:40:01Z beach: I am on Ubuntu.
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2015-02-22T15:41:57Z Guest1913: sudo updatedb    ,  then locate sbcl  and you'll find out where it's installed
2015-02-22T15:42:04Z oleo: no not just in path.....
2015-02-22T15:42:17Z oleo: specify the core too....
2015-02-22T15:42:41Z Shinmera: Guest1913: No need to locate. Just `which sbcl`
2015-02-22T15:42:57Z Guest1913: ok
2015-02-22T15:43:14Z devon: I like to say .bash_login ... export LISP=$(type -p sbcl); l () { $LISP "$@";} ... and .emacs ...
2015-02-22T15:43:14Z devon:   (setq inferior-lisp-program (getenv "LISP")) ...
2015-02-22T15:43:16Z hitecnologys: oleo: only if it's executable.
2015-02-22T15:44:00Z oleo: well i had more than one instance of sbcl once....and had to specify different cores.....
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2015-02-22T15:44:17Z Xaving: has anyone example of using gsll, for example multi dimensionnal minimizer?
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2015-02-22T15:46:07Z emaczen: Shinmera: You told me to use "slime-eval" earlier, can you tell me why this: (slime-eval (print '(+ x 2))) gives me an error?
2015-02-22T15:46:24Z emaczen: It actually will print the expression but then it tells me it cannot find IO package X...
2015-02-22T15:46:42Z emaczen: specifically: The variable SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::X is unbound.
2015-02-22T15:47:14Z nyef: emaczen: How about (slime-eval '(print '(+ x 2))) ?
2015-02-22T15:47:14Z Shinmera: emaczen: try (slime-eval '(cl:print '(x 2)))
2015-02-22T15:47:21Z nyef: Ah! Even better.
2015-02-22T15:47:32Z Shinmera: slime-eval uses a different package by default.
2015-02-22T15:47:58Z emaczen: yep that did it! Thanks guys!
2015-02-22T15:49:45Z monod: now how do I test if I set the inferior-lisp-program correctly? typing in "inferior-lisp-program" ?
2015-02-22T15:49:54Z Shinmera: monod: M-x slime
2015-02-22T15:50:05Z monod: in Emacs?
2015-02-22T15:50:14Z Shinmera: That is, in emacs try Alt+x and then type slime
2015-02-22T15:50:16Z Guest1913: I tried both (slime-eval '(print '(+ x 2)))  and (slime-eval '(cl:print '(x 2)))   both returned an error
2015-02-22T15:50:51Z Shinmera: Guest1913: Did you try from the CL repl or from an IELM?
2015-02-22T15:50:52Z Guest1913: I opened emacs, typed M-x slime  and then etnered the commands
2015-02-22T15:50:59Z Guest1913: cl repl
2015-02-22T15:51:01Z monod: M-x slime [return]
2015-02-22T15:51:05Z monod: Shinmera, ^
2015-02-22T15:51:06Z Guest1913: yes i did that
2015-02-22T15:51:08Z emaczen: It worked for me with ielm
2015-02-22T15:51:11Z Shinmera: Guest1913: Try just (print '(+ x 2))
2015-02-22T15:51:24Z Shinmera: monod: Yes, hitting return of course.
2015-02-22T15:51:36Z monod: it opened a new window inside Emacs
2015-02-22T15:51:40Z Guest1913: (print '(+ x 2))   works
2015-02-22T15:51:44Z Shinmera: Guest1913: The slime-eval part is to run cl expressions from emacs code.
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2015-02-22T15:51:58Z Guest1913: ah ok thanks, I didn't know
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2015-02-22T15:52:10Z Shinmera: monod: Does the window say CL-USER>  ?
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2015-02-22T15:52:19Z monod: nope
2015-02-22T15:52:23Z emaczen: Shinmera: Do you know of a reference to point me to?
2015-02-22T15:52:32Z emaczen: (slime-eval '(cl:print (eval ex)))
2015-02-22T15:52:47Z monod: but I can see I'm in the *inferior-lisp* mode right now :O
2015-02-22T15:52:48Z emaczen: ex is a variable that contains an s-expression
2015-02-22T15:52:57Z emaczen: It isn't working though...
2015-02-22T15:52:59Z monod: Shinmera, ^ (I always forgot to highlight nicknames!!!)
2015-02-22T15:53:09Z Shinmera: emaczen: Do you have EX on the emacs side or the lisp side?
2015-02-22T15:53:20Z Shinmera: monod: You don't need to highlight always. I can read stuff just fine.
2015-02-22T15:53:28Z emaczen: emacs side, which is why I am trying to evaluate it first -- I think I need to evaluate it and then quote it again
2015-02-22T15:53:35Z monod: uh ok
2015-02-22T15:53:37Z Shinmera: monod: Can you paste the contents of the new window somewhere?
2015-02-22T15:54:46Z Shinmera: emaczen: Just use backquotes then. (slime-eval `(cl:print ,ex))
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2015-02-22T15:54:54Z Xach: *inferior-lisp* is what you get when you don't load the slime fancy repl.
2015-02-22T15:55:06Z monod: Shinmera, http://paste.lisp.org/display/145890
2015-02-22T15:55:15Z emaczen: Shinmera: Yeah, this worked: (slime-eval `(cl:print ',ex))
2015-02-22T15:55:35Z Shinmera: emaczen: That'll print the expression unevaluated though.
2015-02-22T15:55:48Z Shinmera: monod: Oh boy.
2015-02-22T15:55:57Z monod: :(
2015-02-22T15:56:02Z emaczen: Shinmera: That is what I want since there are unbound variables -- the idea is to send them to CL and have CL do some heavy lifting :D
2015-02-22T15:56:29Z Shinmera: emaczen: ...but if you want it to be evaluated on the cl side you don't want that additional quote.
2015-02-22T15:57:29Z Shinmera: monod: Uuh, to be honest I'm not quite sure what's afoot there. Probably some version mismatch.
2015-02-22T15:57:56Z emaczen: Shinmera: At the immediate moment -- I was just happy to see it printed
2015-02-22T15:58:11Z emaczen: I think I have a good enough start though to get going now
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2015-02-22T16:00:43Z hungnv95: hello
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2015-02-22T16:01:03Z Shinmera: bye
2015-02-22T16:01:14Z monod: T__T
2015-02-22T16:01:46Z monod: it seems there is no easy way for me to start writing some lisp as a I go on reading practical common lisp T_T
2015-02-22T16:02:07Z monod: is Emacs strictly necessary? Can't I get things done using clisp or sbcl alone?
2015-02-22T16:02:21Z Shinmera: You can, but it will be quite bothersome, unfortunately.
2015-02-22T16:02:24Z Xach: emacs is not strictly necessary, but it is the easiest way to get sympathetic help here.
2015-02-22T16:02:35Z Shinmera: Let me think for a second.
2015-02-22T16:02:41Z monod: Oukay
2015-02-22T16:02:46Z monod: Thank you!
2015-02-22T16:02:50Z hitecnologys: There's slimv.
2015-02-22T16:03:20Z nyef: There's using a text editor with at least paren-balancing, and rlwrap.
2015-02-22T16:03:51Z hitecnologys: nyef: that's just horrible.
2015-02-22T16:03:55Z nyef: Wasn't there a Naggum post on working with CL without using some fancy-pants editor integration?
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2015-02-22T16:04:12Z nyef: hitecnologys: No, "horrible" is doing it without rlwrap or paren-balancing.
2015-02-22T16:04:13Z monod: btw, I'd really like to learn using Emacs :D
2015-02-22T16:04:31Z hitecnologys: nyef: that's insanity.
2015-02-22T16:04:33Z monod: it's only that these kind of issues turn my excitement down =_=
2015-02-22T16:04:40Z Shinmera: ARGH! Not now!
2015-02-22T16:04:58Z Shinmera: I had a pre-packaged and self-contained CL environment that I could've distributed, but it seems to have broken in my absence
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2015-02-22T16:05:41Z monod: I may uninstall everything and just restart from the beginning if that would help
2015-02-22T16:05:47Z Shinmera: I don't think so
2015-02-22T16:05:50Z monod: ok
2015-02-22T16:06:03Z Shinmera: If I'm right the problem is that the slime you're trying to use is too new for your outdated SBCL.
2015-02-22T16:06:07Z faheem_: Shinmera: i didn't get your ping on the CCL bug report
2015-02-22T16:06:12Z Shinmera: So, updating SBCL would be the next choice.
2015-02-22T16:06:18Z Shinmera: faheem_: I have not gotten to it yet, sorry!
2015-02-22T16:06:23Z Shinmera: It's on my todo
2015-02-22T16:06:24Z monod: Shinmera, legit.
2015-02-22T16:07:06Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: sorry for bothering again, but I can't seem to figure out how that ASDF class "module" is supposed to work. It always tells me package wasn't found even though it's there. Say, I have a interface named "int" in system named "foo/core" which has package "foo.core" where interface is defined. When I'm trying to load system "foo/module" (with :class set up and :module-name set to "int") which has module
2015-02-22T16:07:07Z hitecnologys: named "foo.module" which implements "int", it complains.
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2015-02-22T16:08:50Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Can you provide me the code somewhere, I can't quite make an image of what you're saying.
2015-02-22T16:08:52Z monod: Shinmera, downloaded the tar.bz2 of sbcl, newest version
2015-02-22T16:09:12Z monod: but I totally have no idea of how these archives are to be installed
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2015-02-22T16:10:07Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: it's hard. I'm in the middle of rewriting anything so I can't really commit since it's in inconsistent state. Wait a minute, I'll figure something out and make an isolated example.
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2015-02-22T16:10:51Z monod: ...but first, let me take a selfie!
2015-02-22T16:12:10Z monod: lol, I just found an install.sh file
2015-02-22T16:12:15Z monod: trying to move from that on
2015-02-22T16:12:22Z Shinmera: monod: read the INSTALL file
2015-02-22T16:12:27Z Shinmera: it'll tell you what to do.
2015-02-22T16:12:28Z monod: ukay
2015-02-22T16:13:55Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The :module-name property of the system has nothing to do with interfaces.
2015-02-22T16:14:08Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I think I understand what you're doing now that I took some time to read it properly.
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2015-02-22T16:14:55Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: what's it for then?
2015-02-22T16:14:59Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I'll move to privmsg to avoid putting everything in here
2015-02-22T16:15:42Z faheem_: Shinmera: ok
2015-02-22T16:15:45Z monod: Just a quick question: am I safe with this command? su -c "INSTALL_ROOT=/usr/bin sh install.sh"
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2015-02-22T16:17:25Z monod: I'll try and stick with what I read then
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2015-02-22T16:17:52Z Xach: monod: I think you should use "/usr" rather than "/usr/bin" for the root.
2015-02-22T16:18:10Z Shinmera: monod: You should not provide an INSTALL_ROOT at all
2015-02-22T16:18:11Z monod: INSTALL file says /usr/local, so I'm probably going with that
2015-02-22T16:18:22Z Xach: That's the default, so you don't need to set INSTALL_ROOT.
2015-02-22T16:18:38Z monod: also, I'm going to 'yum remove sbcl' prior to install a new version, fine?
2015-02-22T16:18:44Z monod: oh ok, Xach
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2015-02-22T16:21:47Z monod: does not work T_T
2015-02-22T16:21:52Z monod: either way
2015-02-22T16:22:03Z Xach: What happened when you ran install.sh as root?
2015-02-22T16:22:05Z monod: # sh install.sh
2015-02-22T16:22:05Z monod: install.sh: line 13: output/prefix.def: File o directory non esistente
2015-02-22T16:22:10Z monod: Xach, this T_T
2015-02-22T16:22:24Z Xach: monod: what directory are you in right now? What is the full pathname?
2015-02-22T16:22:51Z Xach: It seems like you may have downloaded the source and not the binary.
2015-02-22T16:22:52Z monod: I'm in the directory where I unpacked the sbcl.tar.bz2 from sourceforge
2015-02-22T16:22:55Z Xach: The pathname will give a hint.
2015-02-22T16:23:02Z Xach: monod: The exact name will help troubleshoot.
2015-02-22T16:23:14Z monod: '/sbcl/sbcl-1.2.8
2015-02-22T16:23:25Z Xach: That is the source of sbcl, not the sbcl binary.
2015-02-22T16:23:32Z monod: indeed
2015-02-22T16:23:35Z Xach: If you download the binary, install.sh will work.
2015-02-22T16:23:41Z Shinmera: Xach: Don't "yum remove sbcl" before you install the new one
2015-02-22T16:23:44Z Shinmera: *monod
2015-02-22T16:23:48Z monod: oh ok
2015-02-22T16:23:58Z Shinmera: You can do that after the installation.
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2015-02-22T16:24:47Z hungnv95: hello iam hung
2015-02-22T16:24:55Z hungnv95: qweqweqweqwe
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2015-02-22T16:25:10Z Shinmera: Is this a turing test bot
2015-02-22T16:25:45Z monod: Hmm...
2015-02-22T16:26:04Z monod: 1) reinstalled yum install sbcl 2) sh install.sh does not work - same message
2015-02-22T16:26:15Z monod: 3) I ran it from the same directory
2015-02-22T16:26:16Z Xach: monod: did you download the binary of sbcl from sbcl.org?
2015-02-22T16:26:25Z monod: Xach, nope
2015-02-22T16:26:29Z monod: from yum install sbcl
2015-02-22T16:26:30Z Xach: monod: that is what you should do.
2015-02-22T16:26:34Z monod: ahh ok
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2015-02-22T16:28:08Z monod: ok, binary version: amd64 or x86? My uname -a says: "[...] x86_64 [...]" and I suppose I could go with either of them
2015-02-22T16:28:19Z Xach: sbcl amd64 is better in many ways
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2015-02-22T16:28:32Z monod: Xach, is my system compatible given that information?
2015-02-22T16:28:36Z Xach: Yes.
2015-02-22T16:28:37Z monod: (uname -a)
2015-02-22T16:28:38Z monod: oh ok
2015-02-22T16:28:41Z monod: thanks :D
2015-02-22T16:29:11Z monod: and can I delete the other folder I downloaded, the one with the sources?
2015-02-22T16:29:18Z Xach: yes
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2015-02-22T16:32:57Z monod: FINALLY
2015-02-22T16:33:04Z monod: installation went ok...
2015-02-22T16:33:15Z monod: not before fixing other issues by trial and error....
2015-02-22T16:33:21Z monod: anyway,
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2015-02-22T16:33:45Z monod: $ sbcl --version
2015-02-22T16:33:46Z monod: SBCL 1.2.8
2015-02-22T16:33:48Z monod: :)
2015-02-22T16:34:15Z Shinmera: Now you just need to change your inferior-lisp-program to point to /usr/local/bin/sbcl
2015-02-22T16:34:20Z Shinmera: And then try launching slime again.
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2015-02-22T16:34:23Z monod: okay ^^
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2015-02-22T16:36:33Z monod: btw, in the installation process I tried and renamed a "common lisp" folder to "commonlisp" without spaces
2015-02-22T16:36:51Z monod: it seemed strange to me that *that* was an issue, but you never know!
2015-02-22T16:37:06Z Xach: That is an issue for some tools and libraries. Sadly.
2015-02-22T16:37:20Z Xach: Not limited to Common Lisp tools or libraries
2015-02-22T16:37:25Z monod: indeed
2015-02-22T16:37:57Z Shinmera: Paths in general are problematic.
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2015-02-22T16:43:10Z monod: I have loaded setup.lisp again
2015-02-22T16:43:34Z Shinmera: You don't have to do that. If you did the add-to-init-file thing on sbcl before it should already be active.
2015-02-22T16:43:53Z monod: I had to modify the path
2015-02-22T16:44:05Z Shinmera: Right, but that doesn't affect quicklisp.
2015-02-22T16:44:25Z monod: you also said I could skip specifying a directory in the .emacs file, did you?
2015-02-22T16:44:32Z monod: so that I can count on the path variable
2015-02-22T16:44:41Z monod: and when I try and (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") it gives me errors
2015-02-22T16:44:43Z monod: 3 fatals
2015-02-22T16:44:59Z Xach: What does it say when you do that?
2015-02-22T16:45:23Z monod: Xach may I show you with a paste?
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2015-02-22T16:45:32Z monod: (prints plenty of lines)
2015-02-22T16:45:50Z Xach: paste.lisp.org is a good place to paste it.
2015-02-22T16:45:54Z monod: k
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2015-02-22T16:46:17Z hungnv96: hello
2015-02-22T16:46:18Z hungnv96: asdasd
2015-02-22T16:46:18Z hungnv96: qweqweqwe
2015-02-22T16:46:19Z hungnv96: sdfasdfas
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2015-02-22T16:46:50Z Shinmera: Can someone ban this joker
2015-02-22T16:47:00Z Xach: hungnv96: what are you doing?
2015-02-22T16:47:10Z Shinmera: He's been doing that repeatedly over the day now.
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2015-02-22T16:48:28Z monod: Xach http://paste.lisp.org/display/145891
2015-02-22T16:50:06Z Xach: monod: other yum stuff is interfering. in this case slime from yum.
2015-02-22T16:50:15Z monod: thanks
2015-02-22T16:50:22Z monod: I installed emacs-slime indeed
2015-02-22T16:50:28Z Xach: monod: anything in /usr/share/common-lisp/source will probably cause trouble
2015-02-22T16:50:28Z monod: how did you see that??
2015-02-22T16:50:36Z Xach: monod: the path in the backtrace
2015-02-22T16:50:46Z Xach: err, "loading" output rather than backtrace
2015-02-22T16:51:30Z monod: I thought emacs-slime would only affect Emacs
2015-02-22T16:51:38Z monod: instead it seems it affects the entire system?
2015-02-22T16:51:48Z monod: should I go for a yum remove emacs-slime?
2015-02-22T16:51:51Z Xach: yes
2015-02-22T16:52:03Z Xach: it provides an incompatible, out-of-date version of slime
2015-02-22T16:52:10Z Xach: there is a piece that runs in common lisp
2015-02-22T16:52:17Z monod: ok
2015-02-22T16:52:22Z monod: sad thing..
2015-02-22T16:52:24Z monod: and should I go for a yum remove emacs or am I fine with that at least? :D
2015-02-22T16:53:02Z Xach: I don't know. What version of emacs does it provide?
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2015-02-22T16:53:44Z monod: You gods of configurations settings! *_* yum remove emacs-slime worked just fine....
2015-02-22T16:54:09Z monod: GNU Emacs 24.3.1
2015-02-22T16:54:16Z monod: emacs --version ^
2015-02-22T16:54:21Z Xach: that seems all right
2015-02-22T16:54:31Z monod: good.
2015-02-22T16:54:59Z monod: I successfully "ql:quickload"ed the quicklisp-slime-helper
2015-02-22T16:55:09Z nyef: Note that at least part of this was made much more of a hassle by the extreme dependency between SLIME and SWANK.
2015-02-22T16:55:10Z monod: I am now going to the quicklisp webpage
2015-02-22T16:55:20Z monod: ah uhm
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2015-02-22T16:56:40Z monod: and now M-x slime RET returns the CL-USER> prompt! :)
2015-02-22T16:56:58Z monod: ; SLIME 2014-12-23
2015-02-22T16:56:59Z monod: CL-USER>
2015-02-22T16:57:13Z monod: ready to go on with the practical common lisp book
2015-02-22T16:57:15Z monod: I suppose.
2015-02-22T16:58:33Z monod: so everytime I want to sit and start writing a bunch of codes in CL, I open Emacs and type M-x slime RET
2015-02-22T16:58:37Z monod: is it correct?
2015-02-22T17:01:15Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-02-22T17:01:53Z monod: \o/ ^^
2015-02-22T17:02:04Z Shinmera: Have fun!
2015-02-22T17:02:15Z monod: Thanks :)))
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2015-02-22T17:05:25Z jackdaniel: monod: I admire your patience and strong desire to fix the issue
2015-02-22T17:06:41Z Shinmera: I also admire the patience of the channel to provide help all the way through.
2015-02-22T17:07:04Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: that is true, I share your admirance
2015-02-22T17:07:41Z monod: and I am thankful for appreaciation! ^^ I also have to point out that another user in this channel has a similar way to think of issues, maybe: "being a newbie is not a bad thing [...] what is bad is to not doing anything to stop being a newbie" [cit. hitecnologys]
2015-02-22T17:07:47Z monod: And what Shinmera said, of course
2015-02-22T17:08:31Z hitecnologys: Oh, I'm already being quoted. Neat.
2015-02-22T17:08:37Z monod: xDDD
2015-02-22T17:08:49Z monod: also, I quite much have troubles with English
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2015-02-22T17:09:16Z monod: I mean, I think I am far from not being comprehensible the majority of times, but... I use to make banal errors
2015-02-22T17:09:32Z monod: (unintentionally :) )
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2015-02-22T17:10:05Z monod: is there a RET shortcut for Emacs?
2015-02-22T17:10:18Z Shinmera: Your return key?
2015-02-22T17:10:21Z jackdaniel: you mean return?
2015-02-22T17:10:22Z jackdaniel: oh
2015-02-22T17:10:29Z monod: yes, return key
2015-02-22T17:10:29Z jackdaniel: C-j if yes
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2015-02-22T17:10:46Z monod: C-j does not the job unfortunately
2015-02-22T17:10:49Z monod: whatever
2015-02-22T17:11:11Z Shinmera: I don't understand -- RET designates the Return key
2015-02-22T17:11:26Z Shinmera: Or "Enter"
2015-02-22T17:11:27Z monod: of course
2015-02-22T17:11:41Z Shinmera: So... what's your question?
2015-02-22T17:11:58Z emaczen: where do you get quicklisp -- I have switched OSs and I am running Slime and emacs but I don't remember how to get quicklisp
2015-02-22T17:12:02Z monod: I meant something like C-p and C-n which are used instead of the arrow keys
2015-02-22T17:12:06Z monod: Shinmera ^
2015-02-22T17:12:10Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell emaczen about quicklisp
2015-02-22T17:12:10Z Colleen: emaczen, look at "quicklisp": An easy to use and the de facto standard library manager for Common Lisp. Installation instructions can be found on http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2015-02-22T17:12:37Z jackdaniel: oh, C-j is eval-print-last-sexp in slime-mode apparently
2015-02-22T17:12:50Z Shinmera: monod: Oh, so you mean an alias for RET?
2015-02-22T17:13:10Z monod: :D I didn't know *that* technical name (alias)
2015-02-22T17:13:28Z monod: jackdaniel, you reminded me of the C-h w and C-h k commands!
2015-02-22T17:13:56Z monod: jackdaniel, "C-j runs the command slime-repl-newline-and-indent, which is an
2015-02-22T17:13:56Z monod: interactive Lisp function in `slime-repl.el'."
2015-02-22T17:14:17Z monod: and I suppose .el stands for Emacs Lisp
2015-02-22T17:14:36Z Shinmera: .el is the file extension for emacs lisp code files, yes.
2015-02-22T17:14:54Z emaczen: Shinmera: Thanks!
2015-02-22T17:15:38Z monod: I think I'll start asking some Emacs shortcuts in the #emacs channel, if you don't mind
2015-02-22T17:15:49Z monod: (in the only case in which you were interested too :D )
2015-02-22T17:16:01Z monod: (but you all seem to be good at Emacs already)
2015-02-22T17:18:46Z emaczen: I'm having trouble requiring packages -- again due to the OS switch, I changed directories with slime into the place where my overall package is defined and did a (require :package-name)
2015-02-22T17:19:10Z emaczen: This is exactly what I used to do...
2015-02-22T17:19:54Z emaczen: the debugger keeps telling me that it doesn't know how to require my package
2015-02-22T17:20:18Z emaczen: Ahhh, I'm remembering -- I need to put this definitions in ~/common-lisp or something
2015-02-22T17:20:30Z emaczen: ASDF checks one of these directories by default
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2015-02-22T17:38:42Z monod: hey guys
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2015-02-22T17:39:09Z monod: I don't  have the slime-compile-defun under C-c C-c as written in the book
2015-02-22T17:39:25Z jackdaniel: hm, is your buffer in slime-mode?
2015-02-22T17:39:33Z monod: let's see
2015-02-22T17:39:43Z monod: indeed not.
2015-02-22T17:39:45Z jackdaniel: if it's scratch, it's not by default
2015-02-22T17:39:54Z jackdaniel: M-x slime-mode
2015-02-22T17:39:56Z jackdaniel: to toggle
2015-02-22T17:40:03Z monod: I've made a new frame and wrote the hello function
2015-02-22T17:40:06Z monod: ok
2015-02-22T17:40:20Z monod: worked! ^^
2015-02-22T17:40:27Z monod: thanks!
2015-02-22T17:40:28Z jackdaniel: °-°
2015-02-22T17:40:35Z jackdaniel: yw
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2015-02-22T17:49:36Z Bike: pjb: yo, what's happening with that standards group thing we all talked about in december?
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2015-02-22T17:56:11Z emaczen: Bike: What are the prospective plans for the CL standard?
2015-02-22T17:56:20Z emaczen: It hasn't been updated since 94 correct?
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2015-02-22T17:56:36Z Bike: RIGHT
2015-02-22T17:56:38Z Bike: caps
2015-02-22T17:56:47Z Corvidium: Hi
2015-02-22T17:56:56Z Bike: last year a few of us floated a group for some small revisions, dunno where it went
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2015-02-22T18:00:31Z monod: have I understood it right? There's an idea of making a new updated standard for CL?
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2015-02-22T18:01:41Z Bike: just some small things.
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2015-02-22T18:03:49Z emaczen: Bike: What would these small things be?
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2015-02-22T18:06:01Z monod: I feel very hacky wandering about with Emacs and Lisp O_O
2015-02-22T18:06:16Z monod: like I have a very quick set of tools in hands' range
2015-02-22T18:06:29Z monod: hmm, dunno if it does make sense in English
2015-02-22T18:06:30Z monod: btw
2015-02-22T18:06:33Z monod: I'm afk
2015-02-22T18:06:37Z monod: Cya! :) Ttl
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2015-02-22T18:09:14Z Bike: emaczen: conservative extensions, typo fixes, was the initial idea iirc
2015-02-22T18:09:37Z emaczen: typo fixes?
2015-02-22T18:09:39Z Bike: a few fancier things, like providing formal semantics
2015-02-22T18:09:41Z Bike: clhs prog2
2015-02-22T18:09:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm
2015-02-22T18:09:46Z Bike: like that one
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2015-02-22T18:16:03Z emaczen: Bike: Implicit progn?
2015-02-22T18:16:26Z Bike: "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form. "
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2015-02-22T18:18:48Z kephra: btw, prog1 and prog2 likely destroy the option of tail recursion
2015-02-22T18:18:57Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2015-02-22T18:19:24Z kephra: better use progn aka begin
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2015-02-22T18:19:45Z Bike: apples and oranges
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2015-02-22T18:20:38Z Xaving: I unzip slime in /usr/share/common-lisp but M-x slime end in error: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR in thread #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {AF06D29}>:   unknown &KEY argument: :CODING-SYSTEM
2015-02-22T18:20:51Z emaczen: Bike: Did you reply to my message? Emacs quit on me :(
2015-02-22T18:21:05Z emaczen: Is there away from ERC to get previous messages?
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2015-02-22T18:21:11Z Bike: 10:14 < Bike> "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form. "
2015-02-22T18:21:18Z Bike: you could probably get the logs automatically, or something
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2015-02-22T18:22:14Z emaczen: Bike: how is this new? what am i missing?
2015-02-22T18:22:26Z nyef: minion: logs?
2015-02-22T18:22:26Z minion: logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2015-02-22T18:22:49Z Bike: emaczen: prog2 returning the first form is obviously wrong.
2015-02-22T18:22:51Z jackdaniel: emaczen: prog2 returns primary value yielded by second form
2015-02-22T18:23:12Z emaczen: Bike: prog2 will return the first form on occassion?
2015-02-22T18:23:22Z Bike: no, it won't.
2015-02-22T18:23:26Z Bike: (prog2 4 5 6) => 5
2015-02-22T18:23:33Z Bike: that's what prog2 does. it should say "yielded by second-form".
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2015-02-22T20:02:40Z puchacz: hi, is there "outline" mode in slime showing first lines of toplevel forms only?
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2015-02-22T20:14:00Z axion: a quick google search says to use hs-minor-mode
2015-02-22T20:14:13Z axion: though i am not an emacs user so i can't help much
2015-02-22T20:14:28Z puchacz: axion, thx, checking
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2015-02-22T20:15:01Z puchacz: nice :-)
2015-02-22T20:15:12Z puchacz: it works the way I wanted
2015-02-22T20:15:16Z puchacz: axion, thanks again
2015-02-22T20:15:58Z axion: not a problem
2015-02-22T20:17:20Z ehu: hi. who's currently taking care of any lisp paste requests when they pop up? stassats?
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2015-02-22T20:33:22Z pjb: hitecnologys: you're wrong, clisp is stable and maintained.
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2015-02-22T20:33:49Z pjb: Shinmera: you're wrong, clisp is fater than sbcl  (at launching and at compiling).
2015-02-22T20:33:59Z pjb: faster
2015-02-22T20:34:03Z hitecnologys: pjb: how come? It hasn't been updated in years.
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2015-02-22T20:34:13Z pjb: hitecnologys: that's because it's stable.
2015-02-22T20:34:26Z Shinmera: pjb: That's a fallacy. You're changing the premise to fit your arguments.
2015-02-22T20:34:27Z pjb: Why would it need to be updatede when it works perfectly well.
2015-02-22T20:34:35Z pjb: Is there any new CL standard?
2015-02-22T20:34:51Z hitecnologys: pjb: well, then how come it's faster than native machine-code?
2015-02-22T20:34:58Z hitecnologys: Since when JIT is faster?
2015-02-22T20:35:03Z pjb: Shinmera: your sentence was tendentious and partial.
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2015-02-22T20:36:04Z pjb: hitecnologys: Running a script, for example, involves either loading the implementation and interpreting the script, or loading the implementation  and compiling the script and running it.   In either case, clisp is faster than sbcl.
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2015-02-22T20:36:54Z pjb: hitecnologys: developping involves a lot of coding and evaluating, and again (while it mostly remains within human acceptable response times), clisp will be faster.
2015-02-22T20:37:32Z pjb: Only when you have to run full debugged and tested code on big data will the overhead of sbcl pay off.  That is, almost never for a developer.
2015-02-22T20:38:00Z pjb: Users on the other hand, indeed may have an interest in using sbcl to compile their lisp programs because they mostly run them, not develop them.
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2015-02-22T20:39:35Z pjb: This is the kind of things that should have no place here: hitecnologys> When in doubt, blame CLISP.
2015-02-22T20:39:36Z hitecnologys: Well, who cares if function compiles 2 or 3 ms?
2015-02-22T20:40:05Z hitecnologys: pjb: this is called irony.
2015-02-22T20:40:57Z pjb: You should learn the advantages and inconvenient of each CL implementation.  We have the big advantage over other ecosystems, of having a standard language, and therefore, of being able to write programs compiled and run in different times on different implementations, to benefit of the advantages of each implementations at different times.
2015-02-22T20:41:50Z pjb: For example, if we had a CL implementation targetting asm.js, we could run our CL programs in browsers easily.  This would be a big advantage (and you wouldn't dream to use asm.js on the server, there you'd still run ccl or sbcl!
2015-02-22T20:42:49Z burtons: pjb: any idea why the Mezanno file serving is so slow?
2015-02-22T20:43:05Z |3b| isn't sure that would be any more "easily" than with the ones targetting js
2015-02-22T20:43:15Z |3b|: CL is pretty big either way
2015-02-22T20:43:15Z pjb: burtons: no idea.
2015-02-22T20:43:39Z pjb: burtons: perhaps you should add timers in the servers and in the client, to see where time is spent.
2015-02-22T20:43:45Z burtons: pjb: it looks like you've been working on Mezanno so I thought I would ask
2015-02-22T20:43:56Z burtons: i'm still trying to get it to boot
2015-02-22T20:44:07Z pjb: I just compiled and run it here.  Didn't have the time to do anything else with it since.
2015-02-22T20:44:10Z hitecnologys: pjb: even though you say it's faster, I'm not going to trust you data it until I see actual benchmarks with code I can run.
2015-02-22T20:44:28Z pjb: hitecnologys: check cll. I did benchmarks a long time ago.
2015-02-22T20:44:49Z hitecnologys: pjb: SBCL has evolved since then.
2015-02-22T20:44:57Z pjb: hitecnologys: you can do your own benchmarks today (probably things have changed, processors are faster, memories bigger, etc. and publish in cll.
2015-02-22T20:46:26Z hitecnologys: pjb: I already did benchmarks measuring speed of running tasks a year ago or so. If I find some free time, I will do the same tests for compiling and loading, of course, but not today.
2015-02-22T20:46:51Z pjb: hitecnologys: also benchmark scripts.  I use clisp mostly for scripts nowadays.
2015-02-22T20:47:22Z pjb: also, benchmark on raspberry pi.  It's a 5 million units market.
2015-02-22T20:48:11Z hitecnologys: pjb: speed of CPU doesn't matter as well as amount of RAM since we're measuring relative performace.
2015-02-22T20:48:25Z pjb: You'd have surprises with caches.
2015-02-22T20:48:54Z pjb: and when you're under 300 ms, differences won't matter, but on a slower computer you may switch well over, and make it unusuable.
2015-02-22T20:48:57Z hitecnologys: I didn't say anything about caches. I mean clock frequency.
2015-02-22T20:50:12Z hitecnologys: Besides, it wouldn't matter either, since we run things on the same hardware.
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2015-02-22T20:51:05Z monod: hello good guys
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2015-02-22T20:51:27Z hitecnologys: The only thing that would matter in this case is how CLISP and SBCL use CPU (i.e. whether they use certain instructions to speed things up or how they use them).
2015-02-22T20:51:39Z hitecnologys: monod: welcome back.
2015-02-22T20:52:16Z monod: Thanks ^^ (OT: do English people answer "yes" to "welcome back" or do they leave it unanswered?)
2015-02-22T20:52:39Z monod: pjb just sent me a strange URL
2015-02-22T20:53:05Z pjb: Yes, I do that sometimes.
2015-02-22T20:53:11Z pjb: If you don't want to use emacs…
2015-02-22T20:54:27Z monod: pjb, excuse my suspicion, but it only looked like a stranger sent me a link without any apparent reason (since I've just rejoined the channel)
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2015-02-22T20:54:50Z monod: you could have said "hey, give a look at hubble if you don't want to use emacs" :P
2015-02-22T20:54:59Z Bike: pjb: what's happening with that standards group thing we all talked about in december?
2015-02-22T20:54:59Z pjb: Yes, I could have.
2015-02-22T20:55:02Z monod: thank you anyway
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2015-02-22T20:55:12Z pjb: Bike: I'd have to remember about this discussion.
2015-02-22T20:56:06Z Shinmera: The discussion was left off at us waiting for you to set up your servers again and organise a mailing list, if I remember correctly.
2015-02-22T20:56:12Z pjb: Bike: for now, the best we can do is to write CDRs. https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/
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2015-02-22T20:57:19Z pjb: I noticed recently that the CLRFIs from ALU are canned.  featurep was actually CLRFI-1.  AFAICS, there was only 2 CLRFIs, perhaps they could be made into CDRs.
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2015-02-22T21:13:14Z jackdaniel: monod: usual answer for welcome back is thanks
2015-02-22T21:13:32Z monod: Thank you jackdaniel :)
2015-02-22T21:16:07Z axion: how can i find the cause of "Error (SIMPLE-ERROR) during printing"?
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2015-02-22T21:17:58Z Shinmera: Look at the print-object method of the object that's being printed.
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2015-02-22T21:29:09Z AeroNotix: 10 years @ 400k was pretty cheap
2015-02-22T21:29:22Z AeroNotix: even in 90
2015-02-22T21:29:25Z AeroNotix: 90's money
2015-02-22T21:30:42Z Shinmera: 10 years ago was 2005, not 1995.
2015-02-22T21:31:24Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: "Why?
2015-02-22T21:31:27Z AeroNotix: There have been a number of attempts to establish a standardization process for Common Lisp after it has been officially published as an ANSI standard. The ANSI standardization was very costly and very time consuming (according to http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/15248a1b11c5a603 it took nearly 10 years and at least $400K)."
2015-02-22T21:31:29Z AeroNotix: "
2015-02-22T21:31:31Z AeroNotix: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/
2015-02-22T21:31:33Z AeroNotix: on there^^^
2015-02-22T21:32:13Z AeroNotix: and the key quote from the link on *there* is:
2015-02-22T21:32:14Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: For some reason I interpreted the @ as "ago". Nevermind.
2015-02-22T21:32:15Z AeroNotix: "The easily enumerable part is loaded salary costs (salary + overhead
2015-02-22T21:32:18Z AeroNotix: for offices, machines, etc).  Producing ANSI CL [1986 to 1995] took a
2015-02-22T21:32:20Z AeroNotix: bit over $400K, if I recall right.
2015-02-22T21:32:22Z AeroNotix: "
2015-02-22T21:32:23Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: oke doke
2015-02-22T21:34:25Z AeroNotix: seriously I thought ANSI standardization was *way* more expensive
2015-02-22T21:34:42Z AeroNotix: 400k over 10 years is really, really cheap.
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2015-02-22T21:40:46Z didi: I almost certain I asked this before: I want to make a multidimensional array from a list. I usually do something like (make-array (list x y) :displaced-to (make-array (* x y) :initial-contents list)). Is there a way to do it directly, i.e. not using the intermediate one dimensional array?
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2015-02-22T21:43:30Z Shinmera: didi: (make-array '(2 2) :initial-contents '((1 2) (3 4))) ?
2015-02-22T21:44:09Z didi: Shinmera: Well, my list is a straight one.
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2015-02-22T21:44:16Z didi: '(1 2 3 4)
2015-02-22T21:44:34Z Shinmera: Use a loop to fill it up then.
2015-02-22T21:44:58Z didi: OK.
2015-02-22T21:45:51Z shka: or map with closure
2015-02-22T21:46:15Z didi: "map with closure"?
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2015-02-22T21:47:30Z shka: map over list with closure that will select proper location for each element
2015-02-22T21:47:48Z didi: oic
2015-02-22T21:47:50Z didi: Thanks.
2015-02-22T21:48:06Z shka: i may be overthinking it though
2015-02-22T21:48:15Z shka: since i don't like explicit loops
2015-02-22T21:48:47Z Shinmera: Just use a loop over the list with a counter and then modulo the row length.
2015-02-22T21:49:20Z shka: well, map, loop
2015-02-22T21:49:27Z shka: same thing here
2015-02-22T21:49:36Z Bike: (let ((array (make-array (list x y)))) (loop for i from 0 for e in list do (setf (row-major-aref array i) e))), maybe
2015-02-22T21:49:47Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
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2015-02-22T21:53:51Z axion: i'm not too familiar with DO, i'm trying to debug someone else's code here. i get NIL is not of type DNODE with this function. how can i simple return nil if a key is not found, rather than throw an error? http://paste.lisp.org/display/145895
2015-02-22T21:54:04Z axion: s/simple/simply/
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2015-02-22T21:56:43Z shka: axion: return-from?
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2015-02-22T21:56:58Z shka: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_ret_fr.htm
2015-02-22T21:57:45Z shka: not sure what do you mean here
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2015-02-22T21:58:07Z axion: i'm not familiar with how this code works. i don't see a place to check for nil anywhere
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2015-02-22T22:03:12Z nyef: axion: Every time I encounter DO I have to look it up in the hyperspec.
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2015-02-22T22:04:34Z jackdaniel feels the same about loop
2015-02-22T22:04:52Z axion: i think i'm just going to try to rewrite it in loop which i know very well
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2015-02-22T22:26:00Z pjb: axion: probably, start-func or hop-func returns nil when there are no more any nodes. Therefore your stop-condition is wrong.
2015-02-22T22:26:14Z pjb: axion: you should instead use (or (null dlist) (funcall (dlist-test dlist) (dnode-key node) key)).
2015-02-22T22:26:32Z pjb: axion: I mean: you should instead use (or (null node) (funcall (dlist-test dlist) (dnode-key node) key)).
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2015-02-22T22:28:06Z pjb: axion: you may also want to have a look at with-functions in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/f6b376caafd9c587e735ae359cb78703074a2d13:common-lisp/cesarum/a-star.lisp#L42
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2015-02-22T22:28:17Z axion: i dont think start-func or hop-func returns nil
2015-02-22T22:28:37Z axion: here is the full code http://pastebin.com/VV4S4aw5
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2015-02-22T22:29:27Z pjb: axion: or else dlist is nil and you want (when (and dlist (dlist-head dlist)) …)
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2015-02-22T22:30:32Z pjb: axion: but clearly, you don't use circular lists, so they can return nil. see remove-node
2015-02-22T22:30:46Z axion: remove-node is what is forcing me to fix this
2015-02-22T22:31:00Z axion: it never gets through the when-let due to the error
2015-02-22T22:31:11Z pjb: of course, if you want to search for absent objects, then your function has a bug.
2015-02-22T22:31:25Z pjb: Try not to remove absent objects!
2015-02-22T22:31:55Z axion: the (or (null node) ... seems to work
2015-02-22T22:32:48Z pjb: But indeed, it's always better to test for those cases, unless you're hyperoptimizing some inner stuff.
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2015-02-22T22:34:50Z axion: yeah, i need to ensure duplicate keys do not exist when inserting, but only for certain key names, so i'm doing remove-node in a specialized method
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2015-02-22T22:35:17Z axion: in the higher level library that is
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2015-02-22T22:57:31Z monod: guys
2015-02-22T22:57:38Z monod: the biggest ever challenge for lisp, ever
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2015-02-22T22:58:20Z monod: (and for lispers)
2015-02-22T22:58:45Z axion: make (sleep) really work?
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2015-02-22T22:59:21Z monod: rewrite one of the biggest softwares around in common lisp, entirely
2015-02-22T22:59:38Z AeroNotix: monod: such as?
2015-02-22T22:59:48Z monod: gnu/linux! :)
2015-02-22T22:59:51Z monod: *boom*
2015-02-22T22:59:51Z AeroNotix: sigh
2015-02-22T22:59:58Z monod: lol
2015-02-22T23:00:10Z monod: why are you sighing? XD
2015-02-22T23:00:35Z AeroNotix: because that's just lame and incredibly narrow sighted
2015-02-22T23:01:12Z Corvidium: ^
2015-02-22T23:01:20Z AeroNotix: also, it's partially underway in about 20 different forms that never really materialise.
2015-02-22T23:02:08Z Odin-: Also GNU/Linux isn't a single software component.
2015-02-22T23:02:12Z monod: underway == somebody's already trying?
2015-02-22T23:02:23Z monod: Odin-, you're stating the obvious :P
2015-02-22T23:02:23Z Quadrescence: Bring back LEXPR-FUNCALL!
2015-02-22T23:02:29Z monod: Quadrescence, what?
2015-02-22T23:02:30Z Quadrescence: And the COMMENT special form!
2015-02-22T23:02:51Z monod: AeroNotix, wouldn't a lisp OS be a nice idea?
2015-02-22T23:02:52Z Odin-: monod: And yet, you pretty strongly implied it is.
2015-02-22T23:03:37Z monod: Odin-, hmm, I meant: rewrite the kernel, or something like that
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2015-02-22T23:04:18Z AeroNotix: monod: for what benefit?
2015-02-22T23:04:28Z Odin-: What for? The kernel is a nice compatibility layer. :D
2015-02-22T23:04:32Z AeroNotix: like what would *YOU* specifically do with a Kernel programmed in CL?
2015-02-22T23:05:27Z Quadrescence: a kernel probably can't be written in CL without both writing a compiler or knowing a compiler very deeply
2015-02-22T23:05:33Z Quadrescence: and extending the Lisp language
2015-02-22T23:05:39Z monod: I see your point; you're saying that a kernel written in cl wouldn't be that much useful :D
2015-02-22T23:05:40Z Quadrescence: (a kernel akin to the Linux kernel, that is)
2015-02-22T23:05:59Z oleo: put it in a spaceship.....
2015-02-22T23:06:03Z oleo: lol
2015-02-22T23:06:53Z axion: once you get around that big hurdle, then you'll go and convince the world to write thousands of drivers so it would be of the slightest bit useful after decades
2015-02-22T23:07:36Z Quadrescence: axion, writing drivers presumes that the purpose is to make a general purpose portable OS kernel
2015-02-22T23:07:50Z monod: btw, it's pointless to ask "what would you do with a kernel written in CL", because one could just ask: "what would you do with a current kernel written in current-whatever?"
2015-02-22T23:08:53Z AeroNotix: monod: exactly.
2015-02-22T23:08:59Z monod: :D
2015-02-22T23:09:16Z axion goes back to practical code
2015-02-22T23:09:18Z AeroNotix: monod: there's nothing really necessary in the kernel that CL facilitates
2015-02-22T23:09:21Z AeroNotix: axion: agreed.
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2015-02-22T23:09:27Z monod: AeroNotix, good point
2015-02-22T23:10:10Z monod: AeroNotix, but CL eases the programming in the future, doesn't it?
2015-02-22T23:10:44Z Quadrescence: AeroNotix, CL does the opposite of facilitating
2015-02-22T23:10:50Z monod: if you build from scratch with CL and with any other competitor, in a field where CL does not add any more value compared to the competitor, it at least adds the Lisp language's value
2015-02-22T23:11:06Z Quadrescence: CL kind of encumbers kernel development
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2015-02-22T23:11:39Z Quadrescence: kernels are an area where memory layout and related facts are very important, and CL is a language that discourages strongly that knowledge/expression
2015-02-22T23:11:40Z monod: looking up that word in a moment
2015-02-22T23:11:45Z AeroNotix: monod: isn't this your first day with Lisp?
2015-02-22T23:11:53Z AeroNotix: or something (reading the scrollback(
2015-02-22T23:11:53Z monod: AeroNotix, not really
2015-02-22T23:11:55Z AeroNotix: )
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2015-02-22T23:12:14Z monod: first time reading "practical common lisp" btw
2015-02-22T23:12:17Z monod: that's true.
2015-02-22T23:12:27Z monod: but I see Quadrescence's point
2015-02-22T23:12:32Z monod: it's very strong
2015-02-22T23:12:39Z monod: Lisp is a very high level language
2015-02-22T23:12:42Z Odin-: Quadrescence: Not sure 'strongly' is the right word. More that it allows you to ignore it.
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2015-02-22T23:13:14Z monod: it's an interesting topic, imho
2015-02-22T23:13:16Z Odin-: Quadrescence: CL touches on it in substantially more places than, say, Clojure.
2015-02-22T23:13:39Z monod: "touches on it"?
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2015-02-22T23:14:42Z Quadrescence: Odin-, I am pretty sure "strongly" is the right word. I cannot inform the compiler what the memory layout of a struct is, for example. Additionally, an array of structs will almost surely be an array of pointers internally, as opposed to having them inline.
2015-02-22T23:15:01Z Quadrescence: (those were just minor examples off the top of my head)
2015-02-22T23:16:06Z Odin-: Quadrescence: Whereas for C you absolutely cannot avoid considering such issues. But, okay, point taken.
2015-02-22T23:16:27Z Quadrescence: But, really, the biggest reason you have to divorce yourself from knowledge of the memory layout is because in practice memory management systems are going to move things around, invalidating things like pointer values.
2015-02-22T23:16:28Z Odin-: monod: Such details have visible impact and/or can be influenced.
2015-02-22T23:17:21Z monod: 1) there are some initial difficulties in the mapping of the internals of a computer's work and the lisp language. Correct to say it this way?
2015-02-22T23:17:39Z monod: 2) the two of you seem to be talking of something you do know...
2015-02-22T23:17:51Z monod: (at least, it's my sensation)
2015-02-22T23:19:57Z Quadrescence: monod, ANSI Common Lisp, all by itself, is not the appropriate vehicle to write kernels in because it abstracts away from the machine. Odin- is right in that it is slightly closer than other languages like Clojure in that it makes some distinctions between different storage techniques (fixnum vs bignum, specialized array element types, etc.), but not so much closer that it's viable to write portable ANSI Common Lisp code to write something lik
2015-02-22T23:19:57Z Quadrescence: e a kernel that runs on bare metal.
2015-02-22T23:20:35Z Odin-: You'd need to have the compiler more or less a part of the kernel.
2015-02-22T23:20:54Z Odin-: Which I believe was the thinking driving Movitz.
2015-02-22T23:21:09Z monod: Odin-, Quadrescence: and wouldn't, for example, be a good idea to put the compiler into the kernel?
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2015-02-22T23:21:43Z Odin-: monod: Well, it wouldn't really be Common Lisp in the end, but a highly particular implementation of it.
2015-02-22T23:21:57Z monod: Odin-, uhm ok
2015-02-22T23:22:00Z Quadrescence: you wouldn't need the compiler to be a part of the kernel, but you'd need the runtime to be a part of the kernel, and you'd need to develop kernel-specific language extensions to the compiler to support your development
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2015-02-22T23:23:27Z Odin-: Deep integration is what I meant; sorry to be imprecise. CL makes it hard to distinguish between the compiler and the runtime at times, too, because it expects to be able to call more or less indiscriminately between the two.
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2015-02-22T23:24:33Z Quadrescence: yes that is true. in practice the compiler would probably be a part of the kernel
2015-02-22T23:24:51Z monod: uhm
2015-02-22T23:25:08Z monod: a question arises, about the point that the runtime would be part of the kernel
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2015-02-22T23:25:57Z monod: in the current way gnu/linux is, can't we assume that, very distantly, every program is part of the kernel?
2015-02-22T23:26:15Z Odin-: libc is intricately bound up with the kernel in Unix, but quite feasible to tear away. See the multiple libcs that can run with Linux.
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2015-02-22T23:26:47Z monod: I mean: isn't the kernel to be programmed in a way that somebody can hook a routine into a "kernel" loop?
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2015-02-22T23:28:15Z Odin-: Not quite. The kernel provides an interface between the system hardware and the OS runtime. The applications mostly talk to the runtime, not the kernel.
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2015-02-22T23:28:34Z monod: Odin-, ok.
2015-02-22T23:29:07Z monod: so the kernel has a "fixed" runtime that is part of itself?
2015-02-22T23:29:15Z Odin-: (Meaning, curiously, that the kernel actually _isn't_ the core part of the OS. It's one of several requisite parts.)
2015-02-22T23:29:28Z Odin-: monod: To do it in CL, you'd pretty much have to do it that way.
2015-02-22T23:30:02Z monod: "that" way meaning the fixed runtime I've just described?
2015-02-22T23:30:15Z Odin-: But there are Unix systems where you can use more than one runtime for a specific kernel, and runtimes that can work with more than one kernel.
2015-02-22T23:30:17Z Odin-: Yes.
2015-02-22T23:30:31Z monod: so I kinda see a pattern here
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2015-02-22T23:30:57Z monod: we have chosen to write program that are based on the awareness of the computer's hardware
2015-02-22T23:31:16Z monod: that is, we prefer to manually write in C what could be build with lisp dialects
2015-02-22T23:31:20Z monod: (perhaps)
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2015-02-22T23:31:36Z Odin-: You always have to interface with the hardware.
2015-02-22T23:31:53Z Odin-: In early Lisps, it was done by writing the core of the runtime and compiler in assembler.
2015-02-22T23:32:13Z Odin-: Now, it's usually C and assembler, I believe.
2015-02-22T23:32:20Z monod: I believe it too
2015-02-22T23:32:50Z monod: no way to automate and hide that interface?
2015-02-22T23:32:58Z monod: or the way was to write it in assembly?
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2015-02-22T23:33:22Z Odin-: Lisp was originally built with the assumption that it controlled the computer more or less fully. The image model of CL stems from that.
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2015-02-22T23:33:39Z monod: uhm
2015-02-22T23:33:42Z Odin-: monod: You can build a Lisp Operating System. The question is if it's worth the trouble.
2015-02-22T23:33:57Z monod: Odin-, that's the main point
2015-02-22T23:34:12Z monod: and the only that, imho, should be argued around :D
2015-02-22T23:34:40Z monod: I mean...
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2015-02-22T23:35:06Z mdibound: Recommendations on a light weight image library that can read an image file and be used to return an RGB value at a certain pixel?
2015-02-22T23:36:05Z monod: wouldn't it be a great advantage in terms of development - given that lisp is more powerful than other lower level languages? (said in a rough and naive way, perhaps)
2015-02-22T23:36:08Z monod: Odin-, ^
2015-02-22T23:36:20Z Bike: mdibound: opticl
2015-02-22T23:37:59Z monod: I'm going to bed soon
2015-02-22T23:38:12Z monod: so I'll just wait for the next couple of answers on the topic
2015-02-22T23:38:18Z monod: thanks for the conversation :)
2015-02-22T23:38:31Z Odin-: monod: As Quadrescence said, much of the power of Lisp lies in abstracting away the details that kernels inherently work with.
2015-02-22T23:38:32Z mdibound: Bike: Thank you I will look into this
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2015-02-22T23:39:26Z Odin-: Even the fairly powerful facilities for dealing with raw bytes are specified to do so in a very particular way, independent of the underlying machine - so it has to shuffle things around if the machine doesn't actually do it that way...
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2015-02-22T23:40:13Z monod: and no way to build a lisp "backbone" to put under everything else?
2015-02-22T23:40:37Z monod: (and I was also wondering if this wouldn't be a common problem to all interpreted languages)
2015-02-22T23:40:38Z Odin-: There is, but it doesn't really get you anything that can't just as well be done in C.
2015-02-22T23:41:13Z Odin-: CL can just as well be (and today, almost always is) compiled.
2015-02-22T23:41:28Z Odin-: It's not the distinction between interpreted and compiled.
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2015-02-22T23:41:45Z monod: "it doesn't really get you anything that can't just as well be done in C." are you saying that no extra goodness/power would be added if those part were to be written in lisp instead of c?
2015-02-22T23:42:01Z Odin-: Basically, the closer to the hardware you're working, the more the concepts you're working with have to resemble machine instructions.
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2015-02-22T23:42:56Z monod: Odin-, indeed
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2015-02-22T23:43:21Z monod: I think it's time for me to really go now. Did you want to add anything else, Odin- ?
2015-02-22T23:43:25Z monod: Thanks again
2015-02-22T23:43:35Z Odin-: Nothing in particular, and you're welcome. :)
2015-02-22T23:43:49Z monod: ok! Cya guys! ttl!
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2015-02-22T23:54:37Z pjb: minion: memo for monod: I'm surprised nobody mentionned Mezzano and Movitz to you.
2015-02-22T23:54:37Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell monod when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-02-22T23:55:30Z Quadrescence: pjb, movitz was mentioned
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2015-02-22T23:56:05Z pjb: AND
2015-02-22T23:56:59Z drmeister: If I write an :after method - is there a way for it to get the return value of its unqualified method?
2015-02-22T23:57:11Z Quadrescence: pjb, AND, i suspect not many people know enough about mezzano to recommend to others to look at it
2015-02-22T23:57:36Z pjb: drmeister: nothing from CLOS AFAIK.
2015-02-22T23:57:55Z pjb: drmeister: of course, you can always save the results yourself in a global variable.
2015-02-22T23:59:10Z pjb: drmeister: the point is that if you have :around methods, they may return a different result than what's computed by the primary methods, AFTER the :after methods are invoked.
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