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2015-02-21T03:07:30Z burtons: anybody on ever get opengenera running?  every time I try and run it it locks up my X server, even in a VM running old versions of ubuntu 7.10.
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2015-02-21T03:08:11Z burtons: i'm going back even older to 6.4 to see if that works, but i'm wondering if i'm missing some incantation to keep it from locking the display
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2015-02-21T03:08:41Z burtons: on 7.10 it got cold booting futher than i've ever seen it, but still...locks up
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2015-02-21T03:11:18Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all
2015-02-21T03:11:24Z burtons: howdy
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2015-02-21T03:16:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-02-21T03:20:10Z beach: drmeister: Do you still have things you want to talk to me about?
2015-02-21T03:20:36Z burtons: beach: have you ever gotten opengenera to run properly?
2015-02-21T03:20:51Z beach: burtons: No, sorry.
2015-02-21T03:21:08Z burtons: i saw some old conversations with you about it so i thought i would ask
2015-02-21T03:21:23Z burtons: even on old x servers it just locks up the whole screen
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2015-02-21T03:21:58Z beach: There were some other people here talking about it I believe.  Did you check the logs?
2015-02-21T03:22:12Z burtons: i've found some old logs from 2013
2015-02-21T03:22:30Z beach: I recall a more recent discussion.
2015-02-21T03:22:35Z burtons: i'm just going back and back in ubuntu versions to see if one actually works
2015-02-21T03:22:42Z burtons: i've tried 7.10, now 6.04
2015-02-21T03:23:26Z burtons: 7.10 got the furthest, i got the cold boot window and the main window popped up but after that the whole screen just locks up
2015-02-21T03:24:41Z burtons: if i do ever get it working, tham vm is going to be precious
2015-02-21T03:24:52Z burtons: that vm, i  mean
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2015-02-21T03:28:58Z drmeister: beach: Yes - but I'm on a train going under Philadelphia-  will be in contact in a few min.
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2015-02-21T03:29:10Z beach: drmeister: OK.
2015-02-21T03:29:33Z drmeister: I'm out.
2015-02-21T03:30:20Z JokesOnYou77: Trying to make a binary tree from a list. It looks like it's going to be a nexted recursion and I'm having trouble seeing it: (1 2 3 4 5) => (1 (2 (4 5)) (3)) just breadth-first.
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2015-02-21T03:30:27Z drmeister: How do specials get handled?   e.g.: (defvar *a* 1) (let ((*a* 2)) (print *a*))
2015-02-21T03:30:56Z drmeister: It's somewhere between Sexp -> AST - the most mysterious part of Cleavir for me at this point.
2015-02-21T03:31:13Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: you mean you want that output?
2015-02-21T03:31:26Z beach: drmeister: DEFVAR is a macro, so it gets handled the way you expand it.
2015-02-21T03:31:32Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, yes
2015-02-21T03:32:18Z Bike: why is the three on the end and why does the top list have three elementS?
2015-02-21T03:32:40Z nyef: Oh. Hello, beach.
2015-02-21T03:32:40Z beach: drmeister: I'll check about references to special variables.
2015-02-21T03:32:47Z drmeister: beach: Right - but you have CONVERT-SPECIAL - it has a lot of methods.
2015-02-21T03:33:32Z beach: drmeister: Checking now.  I do something special (pun intended) in SICL, so I must look.
2015-02-21T03:33:53Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, it's a binary tree, 1 has two children, 2 and 3, 2 has two children, 3 and 5, 3 has no children. It's as if you were conducting a breadth first search from left to right.
2015-02-21T03:34:15Z JokesOnYou77: *2 has children, 4 and 5
2015-02-21T03:34:33Z beach: drmeister: CONVERT-SPECIAL converts special forms.
2015-02-21T03:34:37Z drmeister: beach: I think I need to deal with specials first and then non-local exits.
2015-02-21T03:34:50Z drmeister: Oh - so not necessarily special variables.
2015-02-21T03:35:16Z beach: drmeister: There is a CONVERT-SPECIAL-VARIABLE in convert-form.lisp
2015-02-21T03:35:19Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: shouldn't it be (2 (4) (5)) then?
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2015-02-21T03:35:51Z drmeister: Special forms - got it.  Common Lisp overloads special like (but not as bad as) C++ overloads "virtual".
2015-02-21T03:36:22Z beach: drmeister: By default convert-special-variable generates a SYMBOL-VALUE-AST.
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2015-02-21T03:37:59Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, Hmmm...have to think about that.  I guess I would prefer if the terminal nodes were non-null as the purpose is really just to hold data that will be used by something else.  I'm dealing with functions that take s-expressions as input but aren't actually under my control.
2015-02-21T03:38:48Z beach: drmeister: And SYMBOL-VALUE-AST is compiled to SYMBOL-VALUE-INSTRUCTION.
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2015-02-21T03:39:38Z drmeister: I have (defvar *a* 1)
2015-02-21T03:39:39Z drmeister: (cleavir-compile 'spectest '(lambda (x) (let ((*a* 2)) (format t "inner *a* = ~a~%" *a*)) (format t "outer *a*=~a~%" *a*)))
2015-02-21T03:39:47Z drmeister: It's throwing an error.
2015-02-21T03:39:48Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: then it would be (1 (2 4 5) 3). anyway, let me think a bit. i think you could basically go through the list by twos keeping a stack of the last node to give children to.
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2015-02-21T03:40:50Z beach: drmeister: Terminology thing: in Common Lisp errors are not "thrown".  They are "signaled".
2015-02-21T03:41:17Z nyef: "throw" is reserved for CATCH tags, is it not?
2015-02-21T03:41:17Z drmeister: Got it. C++ is a bit more of a knuckle dragging language.
2015-02-21T03:41:20Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, then I may be mischaracterizing it.  The format I need for the next function is (1 (2 (4 5)) (3))
2015-02-21T03:41:29Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, and thank you.
2015-02-21T03:41:33Z beach: nyef: I believe so.
2015-02-21T03:41:49Z JokesOnYou77: drmeister, that is a quotable lol
2015-02-21T03:42:12Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: i don't understand how that format makes sense then. i mean, is "tree with head c and nodes a and b" (c (a b)) or (c a b)? you have both in that one line, and then also the terminal node thing.
2015-02-21T03:42:56Z beach: drmeister: I can't reproduce your error here because I don't use SYMBOL-VALUE-AST or SYMBOL-VALUE-INSTRUCTION in SICL, and I still haven't set up a Clasp-like environment.
2015-02-21T03:43:20Z drmeister: In CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:CONVERT-SPECIAL-BINDING  it's calling (cleavir-env:function-info global-env function-name) where function-name == CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND
2015-02-21T03:43:27Z drmeister: That appears to be returning NIL
2015-02-21T03:44:13Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, the terminal nodes thing was my mischaracterization.  And I see what you mean now.  Let me look at the input format again
2015-02-21T03:44:18Z beach: drmeister: That's normal.
2015-02-21T03:44:55Z beach: drmeister: By default, binding a special variable generates a call to that function, and if you want the default, you need to define that function.
2015-02-21T03:45:06Z drmeister: Hmm, it's getting into convert-global-function with info == NIL
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2015-02-21T03:45:26Z drmeister: So (cleavir-env:name info) is failing because info == NIL
2015-02-21T03:45:34Z beach: drmeister: That's normal.
2015-02-21T03:45:38Z drmeister: Must get off train in a minute - back in 5.
2015-02-21T03:45:38Z beach: drmeister: By default, binding a special variable generates a call to that function, and if you want the default, you need to define that function.
2015-02-21T03:46:59Z drmeister: Wow
2015-02-21T03:47:21Z beach: Hmm, 5 minutes pass faster and faster these days.
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2015-02-21T03:47:32Z beach thinks maybe he meant seconds.
2015-02-21T03:47:37Z drmeister: I was just getting off the train and this guy sitting next to me asked: is that Clasp?
2015-02-21T03:47:46Z Bike: wow, you're famous.
2015-02-21T03:47:48Z beach: Heh!
2015-02-21T03:47:56Z Bike: are there papparazzi around?
2015-02-21T03:48:07Z drmeister: I'm sitting on a train next to a random stranger and they knew Clasp
2015-02-21T03:48:41Z JokesOnYou77: that
2015-02-21T03:48:45Z JokesOnYou77: 's awesome
2015-02-21T03:49:16Z drmeister: Dammit I should have said "come find me"
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2015-02-21T03:50:55Z JokesOnYou77: bike, you're right, it should be (1 (2 (4) (5)) (3))
2015-02-21T03:52:02Z JokesOnYou77: Bike: ex: (3 (2 It) (4 (4 (2 's) (4 (3 (2 a) (4 (3 lovely) (2 film))) (3 (2 with) (4 (3 (3 lovely) (2 performances)) (2 (2 by) (2 (2 (2 Buy) (2 and)) (2 Accorsi))))))) (2 .)))
2015-02-21T03:52:18Z Bike: you changed the terminal nodes again :)
2015-02-21T03:52:26Z Bike: but whatever, let me try to write it.
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2015-02-21T03:55:44Z Bike: (defun ->tree (list) (let* ((result (list (first list))) (stack (list result))) (loop for (a b) on (rest list) by #'cddr do (let ((a (list a)) (b (list b))) (loop for elem in stack when (null (rest elem)) do (setf (rest elem) (list a b)) (push a stack) (push b stack))) finally (return result)))
2015-02-21T03:55:50Z Bike: that is almost certainly wrong, of course
2015-02-21T03:56:45Z beach: nyef: What are you working on these days?
2015-02-21T03:56:48Z Bike: ^it is, and what excitingly wrong output
2015-02-21T03:58:14Z JokesOnYou77: Rofl.
2015-02-21T03:58:19Z Bike: ah, just forgot an early return
2015-02-21T03:58:28Z nyef: beach: Still SBCL compiler bugs. I just figured out why something that I put together mid-last-year is causing a regression, so I'm hoping to figure out what to do about it tomorrow and get it committed before the freeze period. Or it might wait until next month.
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2015-02-21T03:59:09Z Bike: okay, it "works", just a moment.
2015-02-21T03:59:57Z JokesOnYou77: Never used BY keyword before
2015-02-21T04:00:08Z beach: nyef: stassats told me how to teach specbot to recognize clim in addition to lp and clhs.  I am putting that on the back burner for now, but I'll do something about it later.
2015-02-21T04:00:09Z JokesOnYou77: Also, ON is a bit odd if I remember
2015-02-21T04:00:27Z nyef: Specbot used to know about CLIM.
2015-02-21T04:00:51Z nyef: ... And I may have been the one to add support for lp. It was a while ago, though, so I could be misremembering.
2015-02-21T04:00:52Z beach: Yes.  Apparently the format changed, and nobody updated the CLIM database.
2015-02-21T04:01:34Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: http://paste.lisp.org/+34JC
2015-02-21T04:02:02Z Bike: the efficiency is basically garbage, but hopefully it at least does what you want it to
2015-02-21T04:03:36Z beach: nyef: I don't know why the format changed, though.
2015-02-21T04:04:34Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, not quite:  (1 (2 (4 (6) (7)) (5)) (3))  should be (1 (2 (4) (5)) (3 (6) 7)))
2015-02-21T04:04:50Z nyef: beach: I have no idea, either. It wasn't just a prolonged outage?
2015-02-21T04:05:18Z beach: nyef: I just know what stassats told me.
2015-02-21T04:07:24Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, I've been thinking about it recursively from the leaves, but I think maybe the recursive case needs to treat each node as a root and then call itself?
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2015-02-21T04:09:49Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: http://sprunge.us/VHBf
2015-02-21T04:09:59Z Bike: if this doesn't work i'm out of attempts.
2015-02-21T04:10:34Z Bike: of course, now it's a queue rather than a stack, but it was a fuck shit stack to begin with, so who's counting.
2015-02-21T04:10:50Z faheem_: drmeister: i'm surprised a random stranger on the train knew what clasp was. what did you say to him?
2015-02-21T04:11:56Z beach: nyef: Do you have a different theory?
2015-02-21T04:12:47Z nyef: Not other than the one that I just suggested, no.
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2015-02-21T04:17:42Z JokesOnYou77: Beach,  This is beautiful.  I was trying to do it recursively, but this is amazing.  I'm still grokking it.
2015-02-21T04:18:09Z JokesOnYou77: Why is it a queue now?
2015-02-21T04:18:12Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Did you mean "Bike"?
2015-02-21T04:18:15Z Bike: wow, shoved to the wayside
2015-02-21T04:18:29Z JokesOnYou77: Rofl, damn, autocomplete :<  Sorry Bike
2015-02-21T04:18:40Z Bike: because things are added to the end but taken from the front. LIFO, baby, just like first year python
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2015-02-21T04:19:58Z Bike: it's pretty simple. the queue is a list of elements that don't have children yet. each step the loop gets two elements and adds them to whichever was the topmost element that doesn't have children yet, then puts the two elements on the queue for later. side effects keep it all together.
2015-02-21T04:20:19Z Bike: of course you probably want to add error checking and such
2015-02-21T04:23:10Z JokesOnYou77: I think type checking will all be done in function that passes to this one.
2015-02-21T04:23:35Z JokesOnYou77: And, this actually makes me feel better abotu my "starting from the front" approach.
2015-02-21T04:24:07Z JokesOnYou77: This is exactly what I was looking for.  Now, once I've understood it, I can implement it.  Thank you so much
2015-02-21T04:25:03Z Bike: mmhm
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2015-02-21T04:28:29Z drmeister: faheem_: I had to get off the train because it had stopped and was about to leave again.
2015-02-21T04:29:08Z beach: drmeister: You should have handed him your business card and said "call me".
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2015-02-21T04:34:56Z drmeister: It happened so fast.
2015-02-21T04:35:24Z drmeister: Oh well.
2015-02-21T04:36:23Z drmeister: Binding a special variable generates a call to the function CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST:CONVERT-GLOBAL-FUNCTION?
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2015-02-21T04:37:28Z beach: drmeister: Maybe so.  A call to that function CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND.
2015-02-21T04:40:16Z beach: drmeister: How special variables are bound is very implementation-specific, so I provided hooks for customization.
2015-02-21T04:41:10Z Bike: no progv?
2015-02-21T04:42:00Z beach: Bike: Not sure what you are asking.
2015-02-21T04:47:07Z nyef: beach: The implementation of PROGV, particularly the undoing of the bindings, is dependent on how an implementation handles bindings normally.
2015-02-21T04:47:27Z beach: Sure.
2015-02-21T04:47:47Z nyef: This is actually part of why SBCL handles PROGV where it does (in IR2TRAN, IIRC) rather than at the IR1 level.
2015-02-21T04:48:17Z nyef: It's a chunk of IR1 functionality, but for reasons of locality for a cross-cutting concern, it's all in one place.
2015-02-21T04:48:41Z Bike: i'm probably just misunderstanding how cleavir works.
2015-02-21T04:49:29Z beach: Bike: Not necessarily.
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2015-02-21T04:50:32Z nyef: Bike: It's also possible that beach hasn't gotten that far. You can cover a lot of stuff before needing PROGV, after all.
2015-02-21T04:50:59Z beach: Since I can't guess how the implementation is handling special variables, I have a choice.  I can either provide some default or just fail if the implementation is not providing the mechanism.
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2015-02-21T04:51:19Z Bike: all i was thinking is that progv is supposed to be the implementation's mechanism.
2015-02-21T04:51:57Z beach: Bike: sure, so I could use it as a default?
2015-02-21T04:52:06Z Bike: yeah.
2015-02-21T04:52:21Z beach: But I think PROGV is kind of complicated when the number of bindings is not the same as the number of forms.
2015-02-21T04:53:06Z Bike: "If too few values are supplied, the remaining symbols are bound and then made to have no value." wow, that totally makes sense unambiguously, thank you clhs
2015-02-21T04:53:17Z Bike: i don't know what call-with-variable-bound is supposed to do, so
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2015-02-21T04:53:49Z beach: Bind a variable to the result of a form and call a function while the binding is in place.
2015-02-21T04:54:28Z nyef: Bike: Yeah, CLHS gets to be a bit vague and possibly-contradictory around values. The accepted interpretation is that a new binding is created (so that the old value will be restored on unwind) which is "unbound" as though it had been hit with MAKUNBOUND.
2015-02-21T04:54:31Z Bike: (call-with-variable-bound thunk symbol value) => (progv (list symbol) (list value) (funcall thunk))?
2015-02-21T04:55:01Z beach: Bike: Yes, I agree.  I could do it that way.
2015-02-21T04:55:40Z Bike: nyef: hm, my interpretation would be (progv '(*x*) '() (boundp '*x*)) => T, (progv '(*x*) '() (symbol-value '*x*)) => some error. of course, i can see why nobody would actually do that.
2015-02-21T04:56:02Z beach: And I would count on the implementation to provide a compiler macro for when the number of symbols and values is known at compile time, and when the names of the symbols are known.
2015-02-21T04:56:31Z Bike: well, right, that's what i mean when i say i don't know what call-with-variable-bound is supposed to do. like, generate code to call, or what. that sorta thing.
2015-02-21T04:56:48Z nyef: Question: What is the type of the value held by an unbound variable?
2015-02-21T04:56:55Z Bike: nil
2015-02-21T04:57:00Z Bike: if it's just a matter of speed i'd expect a possibly slow default with progv instead of an error, though
2015-02-21T04:57:02Z nyef: Yeah, that's about what I figured.
2015-02-21T04:57:13Z beach: Bike: That's a good idea.
2015-02-21T04:57:32Z nyef: ... Mind the recursion.
2015-02-21T04:58:01Z Bike: doesn't sbcl give error a type of (function whatever nil)? it's what i'd expect.
2015-02-21T04:58:17Z Bike: ayup.
2015-02-21T04:58:30Z nyef: If PROGV uses WHATEVER-IT-WAS uses PROGV, you can kiss your stack goodbye.
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2015-02-21T04:59:17Z Bike: You mean if progv uses cleavir's function?
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2015-02-21T05:01:16Z beach: Cleavir can't just "use the PROGV of the implementation" because PROGV is a special operator so Cleavir must handle it that way.  And since handling special variables is implementation specific, there must be some kind of customization mechanism.
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2015-02-21T05:02:18Z beach: The question (as always) is: Should Cleavir provide some defaults for "lazy" implementors, or should it require the implementor to think hard about it.  In the former case, what should the default be?
2015-02-21T05:03:46Z beach: The default for PROGV could be a function that takes the FORM* wrapped in a thunk.
2015-02-21T05:06:20Z beach: Am I making sense?
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2015-02-21T05:07:06Z nyef: Yes, that's fairly straightforward.
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2015-02-21T05:07:08Z beach: And I can use that same function for binding special variables.
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2015-02-21T05:07:41Z nyef: That function would have to involve an UNWIND-PROTECT or some other integration to the unwind mechanism, though.
2015-02-21T05:07:47Z beach: Sure.
2015-02-21T05:07:56Z beach: But I would leave that up to the implementation.
2015-02-21T05:08:46Z beach: So for the default case, the HIR/MIR form of the program would have no mechanism for dealing with special variables.
2015-02-21T05:08:48Z nyef: There's some other thought trying to come to mind. Something about unsupplied values in PROGV for such a wrapper, and the provided interface when binding a single, known variable.
2015-02-21T05:09:30Z beach: Yeah, I need to think about that.
2015-02-21T05:09:49Z beach: I already mentioned a compiler macro before.
2015-02-21T05:12:53Z beach: This hypothetical function (let's call it CALL-WITH-BINDINGS) would have to use some mechanism for creating a binding for a variable and then making it have no value.
2015-02-21T05:13:04Z beach: But presumably, the implementation knows how to do that.
2015-02-21T05:13:31Z beach: So it would be (defun call-with-bindings (symbols values thunk) ...).
2015-02-21T05:14:19Z beach: What would the compiler macro would recognize?
2015-02-21T05:14:48Z beach: Symbols being '(symbol) or (list 'symbol).
2015-02-21T05:15:07Z beach: Values being (list <form>).
2015-02-21T05:15:12Z beach: Right so far?
2015-02-21T05:15:47Z beach: That's up to the implementation of course.  I just want to make sure that it is possible to do something more efficient for binding a known variable to a single value.
2015-02-21T05:17:36Z nyef: Your basic semantic for creating a binding and then making it have no value is to bind some value in and then use MAKUNBOUND.
2015-02-21T05:18:06Z beach: Oh, right.  I forgot that makunbound works on the innermost binding.
2015-02-21T05:18:08Z beach: You are right.
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2015-02-21T05:19:19Z beach: Ah, but now I remember the problem with this approach.  Compiler macros are already processed before I get to generate code for something like: (let ((<var> <form>)) <body>) where <var> is special.
2015-02-21T05:20:02Z beach: And this is why I introduced a special function for that: CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND which is basically what the compiler macro would expand to.
2015-02-21T05:20:53Z nyef: Okay, as interesting as this is, I need to sign off and do a (GC :FULL T) on my headspace.
2015-02-21T05:21:01Z beach: 'night nyef.
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2015-02-21T05:51:03Z beach: drmeister: If you really don't know what to do about special-varible bindings, do the following: Write a function (defun cleavir-primop:call-with-variable-bound (variable value thunk) (progv (list variable) (list value) (funcall thunk))) and compile it with your existing compiler.
2015-02-21T05:51:13Z beach: s/varible/variable/
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2015-02-21T05:52:01Z drmeister: beach: I've been reading your code and thinking about it while nodding off a bit.
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2015-02-21T05:53:06Z drmeister: I'd rather figure it out and come up with a solution.   I have a way of binding and then restoring special variables I'm trying to figure out how to apply it here.
2015-02-21T05:53:26Z beach: drmeister: OK.  If you want to do something more sophisticated, you will have to recall how you bind and unbind variables, and you need an UNWIND-PROTECT in there since you are using shallow binding as I recall.
2015-02-21T05:55:43Z beach: drmeister: Do you see what I am saying?
2015-02-21T05:55:54Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-02-21T05:56:04Z drmeister: So I should implement unwind-protect first.
2015-02-21T05:56:18Z beach: Surely, you already have that, no?
2015-02-21T05:56:38Z drmeister: I have one in my old compiler - but not the new one.
2015-02-21T05:56:55Z beach: I am saying, write this function and compile it with your old compiler.
2015-02-21T05:58:29Z beach: I don't think Cleavir knows how to compile unwind-protect yet.
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2015-02-21T05:58:44Z beach: That's another highly implementation-dependent mechanism.
2015-02-21T05:59:41Z drmeister: I'll think on this and work on it tomorrow again.  I better get to bed.
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2015-02-21T05:59:58Z beach: OK.  Sleep well!
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2015-02-21T06:43:50Z beach: OK, I think I know what to do.
2015-02-21T06:44:06Z beach: We already said that PROGV can be expressed as a function.
2015-02-21T06:45:15Z beach: In the same way, (UNWIND-PROTECT PROTECTED-FORM CLEANUP-FORM*) can be implemented as (CALL-WITH-UNWIND-PROTECT (lambda () PROTECTED-FORM) (lambda () CLEANUP-FORM*)), right?
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2015-02-21T06:46:38Z beach: So in Cleavir, I can require of the implementation to either 1: define those forms as macros, presumably calling those CALL-WITH-... functions, or 2: provide a method on CONVERT-SPECIAL that converts those special forms to whatever AST the implementor wants.
2015-02-21T06:47:15Z beach: Therefore, I don't need to provide any defaults. Whew!
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2015-02-21T06:57:05Z beach: Can someone verify my thinking here, please?
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2015-02-21T07:05:47Z Bike: well, unwind-protect can definitely be a function.
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2015-02-21T07:06:34Z beach: Yeah, and for PROGV I think we have had the discussion in the past and decided it is possible to define it as a function as well.
2015-02-21T07:07:09Z Bike: certainly.
2015-02-21T07:09:48Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2015-02-21T07:11:10Z beach: In summary then: since Cleavir can't decide how to compile those two special forms, and since the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows for a special operator to be implemented as a macro, I let the implementation choose between providing macros or providing a method on CONVERT-SPECIAL.  Seems reasonable?
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2015-02-21T07:15:32Z Bike: sure, i guess.
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2015-02-21T07:16:30Z beach: Thanks.  It is not a disaster if it is wrong.  I just want check that I didn't miss something obvious.
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2015-02-21T09:54:05Z beach: CATCH and THROW can also be implemented as macros that expand to function calls, right?
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2015-02-21T10:54:33Z axion: greetings
2015-02-21T10:55:09Z axion: i am trying out this code, and on SBCL, control stack is exhausted when called insert-tail as per the example: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Doubly-Linked_List#Common_Lisp
2015-02-21T10:55:13Z axion: any ideas why?
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2015-02-21T11:01:37Z samebchase: axion: same here. looks like that code is buggy]
2015-02-21T11:01:43Z axion: :/
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2015-02-21T11:03:16Z samebchase: axion: these sorts of programs need to be debugged with patience and lot of diagrams
2015-02-21T11:03:44Z axion: sigh, oh well. btrees it is
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2015-02-21T11:11:25Z beach: axion: Compile with debug 3 and trace the functions.  Then you usually see what the problem is.
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2015-02-21T11:17:43Z axion: i don't see anything unusual, though i'm not sure how this code is supposed to work either
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2015-02-21T11:23:10Z decent: I pasted the code and ran the example and.. no problems with SBCL. I'm lucky. :)
2015-02-21T11:25:14Z axion: that is odd. a few people have had issues
2015-02-21T11:26:02Z Shinmera: Works for me on SBCL 1.2.8.70-1efe604
2015-02-21T11:26:40Z decent: sbcl 1.1.12 here
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2015-02-21T11:26:58Z axion: 1.2.6 here
2015-02-21T11:27:05Z axion: i'll try upgrading to 1.2.8
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2015-02-21T11:29:36Z axion: nope
2015-02-21T11:29:37Z axion: Control stack exhausted (no more space for function call frames).
2015-02-21T11:29:48Z axion: copied code exactly as-is
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2015-02-21T11:35:30Z beach: axion: Did you do as I suggested?  It is usually obvious then.
2015-02-21T11:36:41Z beach: Works for me too, by the way.
2015-02-21T11:37:21Z axion: beach: yes i did. it just prints the struct and immediately errors
2015-02-21T11:37:55Z beach: axion: That sounds unlikely.  If you exhaust the call stack, you should see a lot of traces of the same function being entered.
2015-02-21T11:38:08Z axion: perhaps i'm using trace incorrectly then
2015-02-21T11:38:37Z beach: And you are sure you compiled with debug 3?
2015-02-21T11:38:47Z axion: and something tells me this is a regression if it works for others and not for others
2015-02-21T11:39:11Z axion: i'll retry. one moment
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2015-02-21T11:44:10Z axion: no luck
2015-02-21T11:44:23Z beach: OK.  Strange!
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2015-02-21T12:43:13Z sol__: anyone has a nice hexdump function?
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2015-02-21T12:50:26Z jjkola: hi
2015-02-21T12:51:42Z sol__: hi :)
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2015-02-21T13:24:47Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-02-21T13:26:11Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2015-02-21T13:32:22Z beach: drmeister: I am fairly sure that CATCH, THROW, UNWIND-PROTECT, and PROGV will not be used frequently enough that they influence overall performance, so you might as well turn them into macros that expand into function calls.
2015-02-21T13:33:01Z beach: drmeister: Doing so will also simplify compilation and, with that, debugging compiled code.
2015-02-21T13:34:05Z beach: drmeister: Also, what these functions must do probably takes enough cycles that the overhead of a function call won't matter.
2015-02-21T13:36:23Z drmeister: Got it
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2015-02-21T13:39:58Z drmeister: Unwind-protect I know how to implement but the hir will look like a rats nest of INVOKES (two successors) rather than FUNCALLS
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2015-02-21T13:42:51Z drmeister: I guess the special bindings would have matching special-push and special-pop instructions together with Unwind-protect.
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2015-02-21T13:43:59Z beach: Why not implement UNWIND-PROTECT as a function call?
2015-02-21T13:44:12Z drmeister: I don't currently reset special bindings in the debugger when I walk frames. Can other cl debuggers do that?
2015-02-21T13:44:13Z beach: I'll be back in 15 minutes.  I need to put away the groceries.
2015-02-21T13:45:00Z drmeister: I may take you up on that idea. I'm considering alternatives
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2015-02-21T13:58:14Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/b8d9376744b4ebb1 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0c66e597e08be90d
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2015-02-21T14:02:17Z beach: drmeister: I think it will simplify many things.
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2015-02-21T14:32:38Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-02-21T14:33:03Z beach: Hello nyef!
2015-02-21T14:37:15Z scymtym: sol__: https://github.com/scymtym/utilities.binary-dump
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2015-02-21T14:39:02Z oleo: morning
2015-02-21T14:39:44Z beach: Hello oleo.
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2015-02-21T14:44:08Z oleo: hello beach
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2015-02-21T15:38:23Z drmeister: beach: unwind-protect - if it takes two thunks they are closures - correct?
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2015-02-21T16:07:42Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I've probably already asked this but grep doesn't seem to give anything. I'm planning on finally starting integration of your modularize and universal-config into a project of mine and I'm wondering if there's any chance you're going to dump them or supersede them with something newer in observable future?
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2015-02-21T16:08:43Z Shinmera: I don't think so. Universal Config might get some changes or additions once I have a smart idea, but otherwise those are fixed.
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2015-02-21T16:09:29Z Shinmera: Universal-Config is rather tightly tied to Colleen and Modularize is tied to Radiance -- both are large projects of mine and I don't intend to rewrite their guts in any forseeable future.
2015-02-21T16:09:29Z hitecnologys: Neat. Thanks. Can I ask you to notify me in case of incompatible changes, if possible?
2015-02-21T16:09:36Z Shinmera: Sure.
2015-02-21T16:09:55Z hitecnologys: Alright then, thanks again. Now back to coding.
2015-02-21T16:10:07Z Shinmera: Enjoy your week-end!
2015-02-21T16:10:15Z hitecnologys: Yeah, you too.
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2015-02-21T16:11:05Z hitecnologys: Though, I'll probably spend it rewriting half of the current code base. But the project is interesting so it's not like I mind. =P
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2015-02-21T16:14:34Z thail: Can anyone offer some insight as to how "Ansi Common Lisp, Paul Graham" and "Common Lisp - A Gentle Introduction.." compare?
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2015-02-21T16:15:42Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The documentation on Modularize and Universal-Config are unfortunately not very... extensive, if one could call it existent at all. If you have questions, let me know.
2015-02-21T16:15:51Z Shinmera: *documentations
2015-02-21T16:17:37Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: sure. Anyway, after RESTAS I'm used to reading code as documentation. Besides, pages hosted on GitHub provide sufficient amount of data to start with.
2015-02-21T16:18:21Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I'm intending on writing proper documentation for all my projects, but I'm currently caught up in other things.
2015-02-21T16:19:48Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. It would be great if you put links to current one somewhere next to related projects. It took me time to remember there's such thing as GitHub pages and check if they have something interesting there.
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2015-02-21T16:21:17Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The GH pages don't contain more than the README and a symbol index
2015-02-21T16:21:33Z Shinmera: But yes, I should link those as well.
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2015-02-21T16:22:42Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, symbol index can be useful for quick overview and they do contain more examples of usage than README.
2015-02-21T16:22:55Z Shinmera: Right, yeah.
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2015-02-21T16:26:38Z Shinmera: Ok, I set the homepage thing on the github repository at least. Though that's not as prominent as I'd like.
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2015-02-21T16:36:14Z emaczen: if I am looping over a variable i, with the 'until clause' as the
2015-02-21T16:36:14Z emaczen: 	  termination condition, how can I return i from loop when the loop ends?
2015-02-21T16:36:29Z emaczen: I have: (loop for i = init then (decf i) until (condition ...) do (... stuff ...) return i)
2015-02-21T16:36:36Z Shinmera: finally (return i)
2015-02-21T16:36:36Z emaczen: but that doesn't work
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2015-02-21T16:37:16Z emaczen: Shinmera: Thanks, i'll try it out
2015-02-21T16:37:46Z Shinmera: Please read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2015-02-21T16:37:50Z Shinmera: it explains this and more.
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2015-02-21T17:00:37Z beach: drmeister: Correct.
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2015-02-21T17:49:36Z drmeister: I'm thinking of doing unwind-protect the hard way. By creating an "invoke" hir instruction and landing pads. I know how to do it so why not?
2015-02-21T17:51:01Z Shinmera: Why not would be: potentially avoiding further headaches in the future, I'm guessing.
2015-02-21T17:51:05Z drmeister: I appreciate the simplicity of two functions but my motivation for using Cleavir is to move bindings out of closures onto the stack.
2015-02-21T17:52:15Z drmeister: It's more natural to use invoke with llvm.
2015-02-21T17:52:16Z nyef: drmeister: Why not move DX closures onto the stack, instead?
2015-02-21T17:52:44Z nyef: Okay, "more natural" fit to your target infrastructure would be a reason, yes.
2015-02-21T17:53:07Z drmeister: I'll think on this more - I have several hours before I can start coding again.
2015-02-21T17:53:23Z nyef: I tore out a good chunk of code in SBCL/Win32 back in the day in favor of using RtlUnwind, so I know how that can go.
2015-02-21T17:53:29Z drmeister: What are dx closures?
2015-02-21T17:54:01Z nyef: Where you declare the function to be dynamic-extent.
2015-02-21T17:54:38Z nyef: Thus, the function object and its value cells have the opportunity to be stack-allocated.
2015-02-21T17:54:56Z nyef: (There are reasons why they might not be, but it's a start.)
2015-02-21T17:55:01Z drmeister: It's hard to determine what goes into dx closures isn't it?  I thought they were left up to the programmer
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2015-02-21T17:55:56Z nyef: There's some tricky analysis, yes, and SBCL doesn't yet (IIRC) automatically DX closures when the compiler could in theory know that they won't escape.
2015-02-21T17:56:14Z nyef: But you can (declare (dynamic-extent #'some-local-function)) as a bound declaration.
2015-02-21T17:57:59Z drmeister: The dx closure idea is an interesting one. I'll ask beach about it.
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2015-02-21T18:00:30Z drmeister: But you know. I have to implement an invoke hir instruction anyway. Once I do I can decide to put the entire protected form into a function or leave it open-coded in the current function.
2015-02-21T18:01:54Z drmeister: Open coded is the harder way because I have to deal with nested unwind-protects. No biggie though - I already do this in my current compiler.
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2015-02-21T19:50:42Z jjkola: do I need to do something special with cffi if I have a foreign parameter which is a pointer to an array of pointers (it has three *) which is updated on return
2015-02-21T19:51:03Z jjkola: the return value contains the size of the array
2015-02-21T19:54:27Z jjkola: I'm trying to update cl-libusb to use the libusb 1.0 but the API seems to have changed quite much
2015-02-21T19:57:13Z nyef: Heh. Make me glad I bound directly to the kernel API, why don't you? d-:
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2015-02-21T19:58:43Z jjkola: well, it would be nice to be able to use same code cross-platform
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2015-02-21T20:09:40Z pjb: jjkola: if you want to use the same code cross-platform, it may be nice to have a simple C API.
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2015-02-21T20:10:24Z pjb: If you avoid C macros and complex C datatypes (and pointers), in your C API, then it becomes trivial to make a FFI for it, working with all the other languages.
2015-02-21T20:10:47Z pjb: jjkola: of course, you can also implement pointer chasing in CL using CFFI.  Have fun.
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2015-02-21T20:14:08Z jjkola: well, I think I got the gist of it from the cffi manual, only thing I need to find out is how to handle the updated parameter
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2015-02-21T20:16:00Z acetoline: anyone here used Typed Racket?
2015-02-21T20:16:17Z pjb: acetoline: no. We use Common Lisp here, not scheme.  Try #scheme or #racket.
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2015-02-21T20:16:55Z nyef: ... Would "Typed Racket" be some sort of ASCII-art sports equipment?
2015-02-21T20:17:22Z pjb: tapée raquette. :-)
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2015-02-21T20:18:23Z jjkola: does cffi support returning values through parameters?
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2015-02-21T20:20:25Z pjb: No.  This doesn't exist in lisp.
2015-02-21T20:20:40Z pjb: But you can pass as parameter a pointer to some memory that will be modified.
2015-02-21T20:20:53Z pjb: output parameters are returned as mutliple values.
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2015-02-21T20:23:21Z jjkola: ok, thanks
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2015-02-21T20:25:49Z ktt9: hello. what unit testing framework is considered mainstream nowdays?
2015-02-21T20:26:15Z Shinmera: None.
2015-02-21T20:28:43Z ktt9: ugh. thanks
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2015-02-21T20:30:27Z csziacobus: ktt9: fiveam is supposed to be pretty good
2015-02-21T20:31:28Z pjb: It doesn't work for everything.
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2015-02-21T20:38:47Z csziacobus: pjb: right, but nothing works for *everything* ;)
2015-02-21T20:40:04Z ktt9: csziacobus: thanks!
2015-02-21T20:41:07Z Petit_Dejeuner_: ktt9, This is a good breakdown. http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html
2015-02-21T20:41:25Z ktt9: Petit_Dejeuner_: oh, thank you. even better!
2015-02-21T20:41:46Z Shinmera: There are a bunch of new frameworks since then though.
2015-02-21T20:41:47Z ktt9: but. isn't it a bit outdated?
2015-02-21T20:42:31Z pjb: No.  Time works differently in #lisp.
2015-02-21T20:42:34Z Petit_Dejeuner_: It might be. It's what I used.
2015-02-21T20:42:40Z ktt9: I've just started to teach myself some testing techniques, and was wondering, what framework should I choose.
2015-02-21T20:43:25Z pjb: We've got Asgard technology.
2015-02-21T20:44:30Z ktt9: sounds cool :>
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2015-02-21T21:04:34Z faheem_: The immortal Eric Naggum:
2015-02-21T21:04:40Z faheem_: >   A lot of people come to this newsgroup and do nothing but
2015-02-21T21:04:41Z faheem_: >   complain about Lisp.  I think maybe they are such heavy
2015-02-21T21:04:41Z faheem_: >   complainers that they think they read comp.lain.lisp.
2015-02-21T21:04:49Z faheem_: That's really a good one.
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2015-02-21T21:49:17Z puchacz: hi, how does levenshtein from this file return a value please? https://github.com/mrkkrp/mk-string-metrics/blob/master/mk-string-metrics.lisp
2015-02-21T21:49:43Z puchacz: last expression is rotatef and according to clhs it returns nil
2015-02-21T21:50:10Z |3b|: clhs dotimes
2015-02-21T21:50:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm
2015-02-21T21:50:39Z puchacz: ah, right. thanks, |3b|
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2015-02-21T22:05:32Z xaving: is there a way to compile iterate or get an older version?
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2015-02-21T22:26:52Z Xach: xaving: re gsll issue?
2015-02-21T22:26:59Z Xach: xaving: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "iterate")?
2015-02-21T22:27:50Z xaving: i get .../quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/iterate-20140211-darcs/
2015-02-21T22:28:03Z xaving: yes it is gsll issue
2015-02-21T22:28:35Z Xach: xaving: how about (ql:where-is-system "gsll")?
2015-02-21T22:29:57Z xaving: nice command, i get .../quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/gsll-20140211-git/
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2015-02-21T22:31:47Z Xach: xaving: hmm, normally that would work ok together. but you are a little out of date. (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") might get new versions that work better.
2015-02-21T22:31:59Z Xach: xaving: what version of sbcl are you using? (lisp-implementation-version) will tell you.
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2015-02-21T22:32:30Z xaving: last one 1.2.8
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2015-02-21T22:34:05Z Xach: i would try (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") and then try to reload gsll and see if it helps
2015-02-21T22:35:35Z xaving: ohhh, it's work perfect, many thanks
2015-02-21T22:35:49Z Xach: yay!
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