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ZZZzzz…) 2015-02-19T02:47:15Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T02:52:08Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T02:52:55Z gko__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T02:54:20Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-02-19T02:55:24Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-02-19T02:55:47Z theethicalegoist joined #lisp 2015-02-19T02:55:48Z emaczen: Say I want to compose a function and a macro. What is the equivalent of funcall for a macro? 2015-02-19T02:59:40Z Bike: that's not usually how macros are used. could you go into more detail? 2015-02-19T03:00:32Z theethicalegoist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T03:00:41Z emaczen: I'm going to be writing this alot: (fun (mac expression)) 2015-02-19T03:01:05Z emaczen: In general, I have been thinking about writing some function composition utilities. 2015-02-19T03:01:11Z nyef: If you're going to be manipulating macros, the only real weapon is another macro. 2015-02-19T03:01:13Z emaczen: But, what about the case where you have a macro? 2015-02-19T03:01:26Z Bike: the thing is that macros are usually fixed at compile time, you know? 2015-02-19T03:01:38Z reb``` joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:01:39Z emaczen: Bike: This is all still new to me 2015-02-19T03:01:50Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T03:01:58Z emaczen: Bike: But yes, I do know the basics 2015-02-19T03:01:59Z Bike: like nyef says, you might have something like (compose fun mac) macroexpands to (lambda (x) (fun (mac x))) 2015-02-19T03:02:00Z nyef: In general, however, if you find yourself wanting to do things like runtime composition of macro semantics you either don't understand the problem, or the macro that you're using is a function in disguise. 2015-02-19T03:02:22Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:03:13Z reb`` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:06:19Z Pyridrym quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-02-19T03:14:25Z beach joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:14:37Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-02-19T03:15:12Z emaczen: In writing a program in Lisp, when you write a "layer" how much of it should be functions and macros? If you have two many layers -- will that be a performance issue? 2015-02-19T03:15:22Z emaczen: morning beach 2015-02-19T03:16:22Z beach: emaczen: Macros are not for performance. 2015-02-19T03:16:51Z emaczen: yes but if I had 3 software layers, would that be an issue? 2015-02-19T03:17:18Z emaczen: If you are already trying to blend your problem into a language and you have the option of abstracting osmething as a function or a macro -- what should you do? 2015-02-19T03:17:25Z beach: Do you mean 3 layers of functions? 2015-02-19T03:17:53Z beach: emaczen: If you have a choice between a function and a macro, always choose a function. 2015-02-19T03:17:59Z emaczen: 3 layers of abstraction 2015-02-19T03:18:04Z beach: emaczen: Macros should be used only when functions won't do. 2015-02-19T03:18:47Z beach: emaczen: I don't think it will be a problem with respect to performance. Those are things you find out and fix later by profiling. 2015-02-19T03:18:56Z emaczen: ok cool! 2015-02-19T03:19:18Z emaczen: beach: The only case I can think of that is necessary for macros is when you need to delay evaluation. 2015-02-19T03:20:05Z beach: emaczen: More generally, when you want to introduce new syntax, i.e., when you don't want arguments to be evaluated the way they are for ordinary functions. 2015-02-19T03:20:58Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2015-02-19T03:21:09Z emaczen: Okay, then my use case is pretty good then. 2015-02-19T03:21:41Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:22:13Z beach: There are several "kinds" of macros. One such "kind" is WITH-... macros. They allow the evaluation of some code in a dynamic context that is established before the code is evaluated and removed afterwards. 2015-02-19T03:22:48Z emaczen: beach: I get those -- with-open-file and with-current-buffer 2015-02-19T03:23:07Z emaczen: or at least I see their utility 2015-02-19T03:23:08Z beach: Yes. And they can't be written as functions. 2015-02-19T03:25:49Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-02-19T03:26:02Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:26:05Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:26:22Z beach: nyef: Hey. Did you see that drmeister ran the first program compiled with a Cleavir-based compiler? 2015-02-19T03:26:30Z White_Flame: obviously there's the style of (with-open-file-function ...options... (lambda (file) ...body...)), but macros really are better there when you're composing imperative bodies 2015-02-19T03:26:34Z drmeister: Hey beach. 2015-02-19T03:26:42Z nyef: Often, a WITH- macro is defined as a simple wrapper around an invocation of a CALL-WITH- or INVOKE-WITH- function. 2015-02-19T03:26:57Z nyef: beach: No, I didn't. 2015-02-19T03:27:06Z nyef: drmeister: So, congratulations are in order? 2015-02-19T03:27:17Z drmeister: nyef: I totally told you right after :-) 2015-02-19T03:27:29Z White_Flame also congratulates more lisp-on-lisp implementations 2015-02-19T03:27:31Z nyef: I probably wasn't paying attention. 2015-02-19T03:27:45Z nyef: beach: And I suppose congratulations to you as well. (-: 2015-02-19T03:27:53Z beach: drmeister: If you have some general documentation for Clasp, you should put this date in the appendix called "development history". I find those fascinating to read. 2015-02-19T03:28:07Z drmeister: Check this out: http://imgur.com/e8OgyXm 2015-02-19T03:28:10Z beach: nyef: I suppose so, yes. 2015-02-19T03:28:47Z drmeister: Notice the cyan octagon - only the highest quality MIR has cyan octagons. 2015-02-19T03:28:53Z reb```` joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:28:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:29:03Z drmeister: I'm working on M->F at the moment. 2015-02-19T03:29:17Z beach: Yeah, I saw your mail, but I am not awake enough to understand it yet. 2015-02-19T03:29:39Z drmeister: It's ok, I solved the problem with cyan octagons. 2015-02-19T03:29:41Z nyef: I can't help but wonder if such a rendering method would be helpful for SBCL or not. 2015-02-19T03:29:57Z beach: nyef: It can't hurt. 2015-02-19T03:30:08Z drmeister whispers - make sure you have cyan octagons 2015-02-19T03:30:19Z beach: And it has been immensely helpful for me to debug things, and to communicate how things work. 2015-02-19T03:30:44Z drmeister: Yes, it is invaluable. 2015-02-19T03:30:58Z reb``` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:31:43Z White_Flame considers a 4-dimensional version of befunge, with its flows represented on a hypercube... 2015-02-19T03:32:25Z Bike: White_Flame: one of the later revisions is generalized to n dimensions. 2015-02-19T03:32:37Z White_Flame: cool, haven't read up on it 2015-02-19T03:33:36Z drmeister: With M->F if there are N multiple values - should I do N tests and branches or one computed branch and N permutations of copy values and fill the rest with NIL? 2015-02-19T03:36:04Z beach: drmeister: Let's see. If you have M fixed values, you need to check whether N >= M. 2015-02-19T03:36:15Z beach: If it is, nothing else needs to be done. 2015-02-19T03:36:34Z nyef: "M->F"? 2015-02-19T03:36:45Z beach: Multiple-to-fixed values. 2015-02-19T03:36:48Z nyef: Ahh. 2015-02-19T03:37:01Z beach: drmeister: If not, you need to fill the N-M last places with NIL. 2015-02-19T03:37:11Z nyef: So, M-V-B, rather than handling &OPTIONAL and &KEY? 2015-02-19T03:37:27Z beach: Right. 2015-02-19T03:37:38Z drmeister: "M-V-B"? 2015-02-19T03:37:43Z nyef: clhs m-v-b 2015-02-19T03:37:43Z specbot: multiple-value-bind: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm 2015-02-19T03:37:55Z drmeister: Ahh. 2015-02-19T03:38:26Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:38:30Z nyef: SBCL actually makes the defaulting part of the CALL VOPs, so it gets implemented on a per-backend basis. 2015-02-19T03:39:04Z nyef: There have been occasional bugs in the logic, and it was rather amusing to note how much of the logic just outright vanished on ARM. 2015-02-19T03:39:25Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:39:56Z beach: Why did it vanish? 2015-02-19T03:40:47Z nyef: Each fixed received value had to either be moved to its eventual destination or defaulted in its eventual destination. 2015-02-19T03:41:09Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:41:13Z emaczen quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-02-19T03:41:32Z nyef: So all of the defaulting got put into the elsewhere segment, and the logic for moving the values to where they go and testing to see if there were more values was in the normal instruction stream. 2015-02-19T03:41:45Z nyef: And it was a bit of a mess to figure out what was going on. 2015-02-19T03:42:03Z nyef: On ARM? Predicated instructions. One instruction stream, no fuss, no muss. 2015-02-19T03:42:09Z Bike: out of curiosity, what is "the elsewhere segment", exactly? those "**ELSEWHERE**" or whatever it is in the source are pretty spooky looking 2015-02-19T03:42:19Z beach: nyef: Yes, I see. 2015-02-19T03:42:27Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-02-19T03:43:00Z emaczen joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:43:07Z nyef: Bike: The compiler maintains two "segments" when it compiles a component. One is the normal segment, and one is *elsewhere*. In the end, once it's finished with assembling code, it concatenates the two segments to produce the final code image. 2015-02-19T03:43:49Z nyef: Bike: It's a useful place to stash logic that a VOP declares is necessary without the rest of the compiler needing to deal with it on the level of a basic block. 2015-02-19T03:44:24Z Bike: i see... 2015-02-19T03:45:43Z devll quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T03:47:26Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T03:48:51Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:49:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T03:53:15Z sheilong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T03:53:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:53:43Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-02-19T03:59:08Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T04:00:22Z stratomula quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:00:42Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-02-19T04:00:54Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:01:45Z stratomula joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:02:31Z beach: drmeister: So have you attempted to run any other programs? 2015-02-19T04:02:41Z a20150214 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:04:38Z selat joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:07:55Z eschatologist: Is anyone working on supporting the various ARM variants in sbcl? The primary config for ARM-Linux seems to just target armv5. I've bumped it to armv6 and also passed -mfloat-abi=hard and it works, but armv7 fails due to incompatible assembly. 2015-02-19T04:08:13Z stratomula quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:09:04Z nyef: eschatologist: You might need -marm or something like that to generate ARM assembly rather than THUMB. 2015-02-19T04:10:02Z stratomula joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:10:26Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-02-19T04:11:15Z eschatologist: Config.arm-linux sets CFLAGS to -marm -march=armv5 by default. 2015-02-19T04:11:30Z eschatologist: Just tweaking the v5 to v7 doesn't work, at least on my Raspberry Pi 2. 2015-02-19T04:11:40Z eschatologist: Maybe I also need something like an -mno-thumb or something. 2015-02-19T04:13:10Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:14:40Z nyef: It's at least a place to start digging. 2015-02-19T04:15:26Z nyef: If there's no support for the ARM instruction set in the CPU, only THUMB, then it's pretty much a matter of another compiler backend. 2015-02-19T04:15:34Z nyef: And I'm NOT doing that again. 2015-02-19T04:15:41Z nyef: At least, not this soon. 2015-02-19T04:16:23Z Bike: huh, there are arm cpus that don't support arm? 2015-02-19T04:18:05Z nyef: I have no idea. 2015-02-19T04:18:15Z nyef: But that's the worst-case scenario. 2015-02-19T04:19:02Z nyef: Once you know what the worst-case scenario is, you can plan for it, and it becomes not such a big deal, and anything less therefore can't be a big deal either. 2015-02-19T04:21:39Z eschatologist: Yeah, I'm more interested in going "up" from armv5 (eg v6, v7, v8/arm64) than "down" (cortex-m*, thumb) 2015-02-19T04:22:32Z badkins quit 2015-02-19T04:24:47Z nyef: arm64 would be another backend, but one easier to add threading support to. 2015-02-19T04:25:43Z nyef: The various crazy FPU options would be easier to support in the context of the current backend. 2015-02-19T04:27:22Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:27:28Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:27:44Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:29:46Z c74d is now known as Guest12641 2015-02-19T04:30:09Z Guest12641 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:30:09Z ethycol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:30:30Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-02-19T04:31:04Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:31:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:31:32Z c74d3 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:32:01Z drmeister: beach: No, I'm implementing more instructions. 2015-02-19T04:32:30Z akkad: is ccl the best supported on windows? 2015-02-19T04:32:32Z drmeister: beach: M->F can never have zero outputs correct? 2015-02-19T04:33:04Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:33:30Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:33:56Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T04:36:33Z nyef: drmeister: Why wouldn't it be able to have zero outputs? 2015-02-19T04:37:54Z drmeister: That would be like a (multiple-value-bind () (FOO) ...) 2015-02-19T04:39:22Z akkad: if you have to do CL on windows is CCL the best option? 2015-02-19T04:40:19Z Jubb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T04:40:37Z Bike: drmeister: that's legal 2015-02-19T04:40:59Z nyef: drmeister: Right. Which could, in theory, be eliminated when converting from Lisp to HIR. 2015-02-19T04:43:45Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-02-19T04:44:55Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-02-19T04:45:42Z White_Flame: akkad: SBCL is getting mature on Windows. It gave no problems last time I used it, and that's been over a year 2015-02-19T04:45:54Z White_Flame: ago 2015-02-19T04:46:23Z White_Flame: I found that for our programs, SBCL x32 in Win was 2x faster than CCL x64 on Win 2015-02-19T04:47:03Z White_Flame: CLISP should run fine on Windows as well 2015-02-19T04:47:15Z White_Flame: I've never gotten ECL to work on WIn, but YMMV 2015-02-19T04:47:35Z sheilong quit (Quit: end of file) 2015-02-19T04:48:11Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-02-19T04:51:18Z akkad: ok 2015-02-19T04:51:54Z akkad: CLISP is a serious answer? :P 2015-02-19T04:52:21Z akkad: sbcl is nice 2015-02-19T04:53:00Z White_Flame: it all depends on what "best option" means 2015-02-19T04:53:17Z White_Flame: that involves stability, compatibility with libs, included extras, etc 2015-02-19T04:55:10Z beach: drmeister: I would not exclude that possibility, but I also can't think of a situation in which it would happen. 2015-02-19T05:03:21Z thomas1_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:03:31Z heurist`_ is now known as heurist 2015-02-19T05:04:50Z thomas1_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T05:06:04Z jasom: Bike: there are thumb2 only ARMs, but not thumb1 IIRC 2015-02-19T05:07:03Z jasom: thumb2 covers pretty much all of arm except it makes most instructions not conditional 2015-02-19T05:08:15Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T05:08:43Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:10:06Z nyef: jasom: I fail to see how that would be possible unless the instructions tended to be 32-bit. 2015-02-19T05:11:16Z jasom: nyef: some are 16, some are 32 2015-02-19T05:13:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:14:13Z jasom: nyef: you can actually write the same assembly for arm and thumb2. Thumb2 may need more instructions than arm though (and I don't recall if the assembler will silently insert literal pools too; it's arguably no longer an assembler at this point anyway) 2015-02-19T05:16:11Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-02-19T05:16:57Z Sgeo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-02-19T05:17:38Z jasom: And remember it reclaims 4 bits of code space by making most instructions unconditional 2015-02-19T05:19:41Z nyef: Probably makes some of the more interesting instructions unconditional, at that. /-: 2015-02-19T05:20:17Z stratomula quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T05:20:23Z beach: Thumb2 sounds like a step in the wrong direction to me. 2015-02-19T05:20:28Z beach: Maybe I am missing something. 2015-02-19T05:21:07Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T05:21:09Z nyef: Reduced i-cache load? 2015-02-19T05:21:25Z jasom: reduced icache load, reduced ROM footprint for deeply embedded applications 2015-02-19T05:22:35Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T05:22:35Z beach: If you need more instructions, the reduced i-cache load might not be so great. 2015-02-19T05:22:35Z jasom: nyef: MOV is no longer conditional, but they added ITE (If Then Else) that makes some combination of the next 4 instructions conditional 2015-02-19T05:22:35Z zacts quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-02-19T05:22:36Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:22:44Z nyef: Hrm. That might make up for it a bit. Conditional MOV is amazingly useful. 2015-02-19T05:22:52Z stratomula joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:22:58Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:22:58Z nyef: As is a conditional computed jump. 2015-02-19T05:23:16Z nyef: Well, okay, not a conditional computed jump 2015-02-19T05:23:50Z jasom: In fact in the assembler syntax you just do e.g. ITE EQ and then write MOVEQ MOVNE and it sets up the bits correctly 2015-02-19T05:24:11Z jasom: and on ARM it emits no instruction for the ITE, but emits conditional moves as normal 2015-02-19T05:25:09Z eschatologist: Shades of the PDP-10 indirect bit… 2015-02-19T05:26:04Z jasom: http://community.arm.com/groups/processors/blog/2010/09/30/condition-codes-3-conditional-execution-in-thumb-2 2015-02-19T05:31:58Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-02-19T05:32:05Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:32:11Z mrnugget joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:35:52Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T05:40:03Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T05:40:30Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:41:44Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:43:01Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:43:03Z theos joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:44:59Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T05:46:53Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-02-19T05:47:09Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2-dev) 2015-02-19T05:48:49Z protist joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:54:09Z huza joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:55:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:56:59Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2015-02-19T05:58:34Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T05:58:45Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-02-19T06:01:07Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T06:01:33Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-02-19T06:07:23Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec version of ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION takes a keyword argument ENVIRONMENT, but the MOP version does not. 2015-02-19T06:07:31Z beach: clhs ensure-generic-function 2015-02-19T06:07:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensure.htm 2015-02-19T06:07:34Z beach: mop ensure-generic-function 2015-02-19T06:07:34Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-generic-function.html 2015-02-19T06:08:01Z beach: Now the MOP version defers keyword processing to ensure-generic-function-using-class. 2015-02-19T06:08:03Z beach: mop ensure-generic-function-using-class 2015-02-19T06:08:04Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-generic-function-using-class.html 2015-02-19T06:08:17Z Bike: implementations can let standard functions have new keywords, right? 2015-02-19T06:08:25Z beach: Yes, I think so. 2015-02-19T06:08:55Z beach: But ensure-generic-function-using-class doesn't have an ENVIRONMENT argument either. I think it must be added, right? 2015-02-19T06:09:11Z Bike: it would seem so 2015-02-19T06:09:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-02-19T06:10:46Z beach: Now ensure-generic-function-using-class has &allow-other-keys, and it has a default for all other keywords. 2015-02-19T06:11:33Z beach: So they would be passed to make-instance or reinitialize-instance. 2015-02-19T06:12:16Z c74d3 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T06:12:39Z beach: Ah, but ENVIRONMENT needs to be processed by ensure-generic-function-using-class. 2015-02-19T06:12:56Z Bike: i think sbcl ignores it... 2015-02-19T06:13:06Z beach: Because it says "The function name FUNCTION-NAME is set to name the generic function. 2015-02-19T06:13:11Z beach: " 2015-02-19T06:13:31Z beach: Bike: Yes, of course, because SBCL only has a single global environment. 2015-02-19T06:13:44Z Bike: ok. 2015-02-19T06:14:41Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-02-19T06:14:53Z beach: But in SICL, the method on ensure-generic-function-using-class specialized to NULL should define the function in the environment given by the ENVIRONMENT keyword argument. 2015-02-19T06:15:39Z beach: Am I making sense? 2015-02-19T06:15:55Z Bike: sure 2015-02-19T06:16:01Z beach: Good. :) 2015-02-19T06:17:11Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T06:17:27Z beach: Next question: When there is a discrepancy between the Common Lisp HyperSpec and the MOP as in ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION with respect to the explicitly-defined keywords arguments, what should one do? 2015-02-19T06:18:25Z beach: Solution 1: Define the arguments explicitly as the Common Lisp HyperSpec says, and pass them to ensure-generic-function-using-class? 2015-02-19T06:18:35Z Bike: the mop wasn't really supposed to be a standard anyway, so, these things happen 2015-02-19T06:18:36Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-02-19T06:18:46Z beach: Sure. 2015-02-19T06:18:48Z rick-monster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-02-19T06:19:01Z beach: Solution 2: Let ensure-generic-function-using-class deal 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what book or tutorial do you follow to learn lisp? 2015-02-19T08:21:07Z Oladon1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T08:21:27Z sd: now it practical common lisp 2015-02-19T08:21:35Z decent: nice book. :) 2015-02-19T08:21:43Z H4ns: good. what lisp did you install and how? 2015-02-19T08:21:52Z sd: but in my lab they use land of lisp 2015-02-19T08:21:52Z sd: :D 2015-02-19T08:21:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:22:30Z wz1000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T08:22:44Z sd: clisp -mingw 2015-02-19T08:22:59Z sd: i think it should install it automatically 2015-02-19T08:23:24Z H4ns: type "clisp", if you get a USER> or CL-USER> prompt, you should be good. 2015-02-19T08:23:49Z mrnugget joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:24:35Z sd: yes 2015-02-19T08:24:39Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T08:25:00Z sd: its wrking 2015-02-19T08:25:02Z sd: thanks 2015-02-19T08:25:05Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:26:05Z decent: sweet.. soon you can teach me all you know so I learn something at last! ;) 2015-02-19T08:26:48Z sd: i dont know any thing yet 2015-02-19T08:27:07Z sd: im trying to make a first program :D 2015-02-19T08:27:24Z decent: so almost as far as I got.. nice. :) 2015-02-19T08:32:04Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2015-02-19T08:32:13Z akkad: ASau! 2015-02-19T08:32:21Z sd: decent which editor do u use 2015-02-19T08:32:41Z decent: sd: I'm probably the worst to ask. but emacs. :) 2015-02-19T08:33:04Z decent: at least for lisp.. normal text editing I often use vi or vim 2015-02-19T08:33:07Z akkad: emacs all the way 2015-02-19T08:33:34Z sd: im just like i installed notepad++ and dont now how to use it 2015-02-19T08:33:46Z decent: akkad: maybe.. but vim has a few years headstart for me. :) 2015-02-19T08:34:25Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:34:35Z decent: haven't really used Windows for years though. tried Win 8 when it came out but only for a month 2015-02-19T08:35:01Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T08:35:06Z akkad: I use both. used vi first. 2015-02-19T08:35:16Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:35:30Z akkad: simple editor without the kitchensink, or vimscripts.org 13k additions to compete with emacs 2015-02-19T08:36:08Z decent: trying to get used to the emacs way.. and can't remember any addon I used for vim.. default is good enough for me :) 2015-02-19T08:37:31Z akkad: moving between windows/linux/osx and keeping your world the same via emacs is comfortable. 2015-02-19T08:38:55Z decent: I found OS X painful.. didn't try it under Windows (which is why I meanting Windows.. no idea about slime there) 2015-02-19T08:40:16Z fridim is now known as fridim_ 2015-02-19T08:41:27Z flash- joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:41:48Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:42:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T08:47:31Z huza joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:52:14Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:52:34Z przl joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:52:42Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-02-19T08:53:20Z beetlebum joined #lisp 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make the intention more clear (within the Common Lisp world). 2015-02-19T12:40:27Z josteink: schjetne: to be able to pass it as a value to a function 2015-02-19T12:40:46Z josteink: with common lisp (unlike scheme, etc) having different namespaces for functions and values 2015-02-19T12:40:50Z moore33: schjetne: Force of habit (I do it). Before ANSI CL (lambda...) was not valid as a function parameter. 2015-02-19T12:40:58Z schjetne: Ah, now I see 2015-02-19T12:40:59Z josteink: and thn you call that #' form with (funcall ...) or something 2015-02-19T12:41:12Z antoszka: josteink: I don't think that's what schjetne was actually asking about :) 2015-02-19T12:41:22Z josteink: maybe not 2015-02-19T12:41:24Z josteink: ah well :) 2015-02-19T12:41:25Z moore33: Whereas in ANSI CL (lambda ...) -> #'(lambda ...) 2015-02-19T12:41:26Z paradoja quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T12:41:43Z josteink: right 2015-02-19T12:41:53Z antoszka: But #' makes the code immediately more visually clear (as to what's being passed). 2015-02-19T12:42:02Z antoszka: In case of a lambda form. 2015-02-19T12:42:11Z schjetne: I've avoided it myself because I think it looks cluttered, but I was a bit worried I had missed some important nuance 2015-02-19T12:42:24Z moore33: antoszka: I agree, which is why I have stuck with #', though lately I am trying to get with the times. 2015-02-19T12:42:28Z H4ns: schjetne: there is no difference between the two forms. 2015-02-19T12:43:12Z H4ns: schjetne: (in terms of semantics, that is) 2015-02-19T12:44:05Z schjetne: The hyperspec is a bit confusing because it says function creates a closure, but removing the function still gives me a closure from the example 2015-02-19T12:44:37Z agumonkey quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-02-19T12:44:54Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2015-02-19T12:44:59Z schjetne: (defun adder (x) (function (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) seems identical to (defun adder (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 2015-02-19T12:45:04Z Odin-: "If name is a lambda expression, then a lexical closure is returned." 2015-02-19T12:45:18Z Odin-: Definition of special operator function. 2015-02-19T12:46:11Z moore33: schjetne: Now look up the macro LAMBDA. 2015-02-19T12:46:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-02-19T12:46:25Z Odin-: Huh. 2015-02-19T12:46:34Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T12:46:43Z Odin-: Now that's turning things upside down. :D 2015-02-19T12:47:42Z moore33: in #'(lambda (foo) ...), the lambda introduces a lambda expression. In (lambda (foo), lambda is a macro. in ((lambda (foo) ...) ...), It's neither :) 2015-02-19T12:49:43Z peterhil` joined #lisp 2015-02-19T12:50:41Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T12:53:11Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T12:54:29Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T12:54:31Z pjb: antoszka: you should also write (+ '4 '2) to make the intention clearer. 2015-02-19T12:54:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T12:55:33Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-02-19T12:55:45Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T12:55:51Z schjetne: moore33: I think I'm starting to get it. It's just a symbol that tells the function special form that it's dealing with lambda expression. Not something you can actually evaluate. So they wrote a lambda macro at one point to make things more convenient. 2015-02-19T12:56:12Z pjb: schjetne: basically, FUNCTION is the only operator in CL that creates closures. defun, defmacro, defmethod, flet, labels, etc, they all expand (at least theorically) to a (function (lambda …)) for. 2015-02-19T12:56:23Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-02-19T12:56:49Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-02-19T12:57:15Z moore33: schjetne: Yeah. 2015-02-19T12:57:21Z pjb: s/for./form./ 2015-02-19T12:57:46Z antonv left #lisp 2015-02-19T12:58:10Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T12:59:37Z schjetne: moore33, pjb: thanks, I just felt my understanding of the language got deeper 2015-02-19T13:02:06Z Odin- likes the "guts of an interpreter" in the Lisp 1.5 manual for that. 2015-02-19T13:02:41Z Odin-: It really is pretty impressive that you can express the core of what's going on in less than a page of code... 2015-02-19T13:03:27Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-02-19T13:04:27Z antoszka: pjb: No, I'd say that'd make the *intentions* murkier. 2015-02-19T13:04:42Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T13:04:49Z beetlebum joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:06:01Z pjb: antoszka: surely, you don't want to evaluate 4, you want to get it unevaluated, to be able to add it to 2. Therefore (+ '4 '2) should be much clearer. Just like #'(lambda () 'hi) is clearer than (lambda () 'hi). And yes, I'm 100% ironic. 2015-02-19T13:06:18Z antoszka: I gathered. 2015-02-19T13:06:43Z schjetne: Odin-: I've thumbed through it, I've been meaning to give it a proper read-through 2015-02-19T13:07:23Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:07:49Z Odin-: schjetne: I wound up getting it in hardcopy to make it easier to page back and forth. :/ 2015-02-19T13:08:46Z schjetne: yeah, a bunch of unwound PostScript is a bit hard to put your thumb on 2015-02-19T13:08:56Z schjetne: unrolled, I mean 2015-02-19T13:09:10Z AeroNotix: hey does anyone know if the San Jose computer museum has a Lisp machine? 2015-02-19T13:10:29Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:10:34Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T13:11:06Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:12:57Z mood: AeroNotix: This search suggests they at least have some: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=lisp&f=physicalobject 2015-02-19T13:14:05Z xificurC_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:14:17Z AeroNotix: mood: awesome! 2015-02-19T13:16:30Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:17:02Z beetlebum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T13:17:05Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:17:40Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:18:57Z pranavrc quit 2015-02-19T13:23:55Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:26:18Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:30:27Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2015-02-19T13:32:23Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-02-19T13:36:25Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T13:36:38Z quazimodo: pjb: you know, that photograph you showed me. every day it's making more sense 2015-02-19T13:36:38Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:38:03Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:39:02Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:39:27Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T13:40:58Z schaueho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T13:43:19Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:44:52Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:45:37Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:46:50Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-02-19T13:46:52Z taylanub joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:47:41Z antgreen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-02-19T13:48:12Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-02-19T13:48:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:49:59Z wz1000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-02-19T13:50:00Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-02-19T13:50:12Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:50:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:55:20Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:55:30Z ikki joined #lisp 2015-02-19T13:55:52Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2015-02-19T13:56:32Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T13:57:43Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T13:58:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:00:28Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:01:30Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:03:12Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T14:06:41Z zhangyh26258 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T14:06:53Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:07:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:07:34Z Harag1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T14:11:44Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:13:31Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T14:13:50Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:14:34Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T14:14:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:15:13Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T14:16:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T14:16:10Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It means I'm not entirely senile yet. :-) 2015-02-19T15:39:23Z lispyone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T15:39:49Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-02-19T15:44:02Z Longlius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T15:45:39Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T15:46:28Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-02-19T15:47:43Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T15:51:50Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-02-19T15:52:18Z tank joined #lisp 2015-02-19T15:52:27Z tank is now known as tank9 2015-02-19T15:52:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T15:55:05Z flash- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T15:57:00Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T15:57:51Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T15:57:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-02-19T15:59:24Z tank9: Silly question, but haven't been able to sort this out. What's the right mechanism to turn a list of lists into discrete values for the purposes of mapping? Example: (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) => (3 6 9). How do I call this if I have '((1 2 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3))? VALUES doesn't seem to do it. 2015-02-19T16:00:12Z hitecnologys: clhs APPLY 2015-02-19T16:00:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-02-19T16:00:47Z taylanub: tank9: (mapcar (lambda (list) (apply #'+ list)) list-of-lists) 2015-02-19T16:01:08Z H4ns: taylanub: no. 2015-02-19T16:01:21Z hitecnologys: taylanub: there's not need to do this. You can just APPLY the list to MAPCAR. 2015-02-19T16:01:39Z hitecnologys: taylanub: like (apply #'mapcar #'+ list). 2015-02-19T16:01:47Z taylanub: oh, indeed 2015-02-19T16:01:58Z H4ns: what taylanub pasted does something entirely different, though. 2015-02-19T16:02:11Z taylanub: that too 2015-02-19T16:02:23Z tank9: The addition function was just for description. The function I have to map is more involved, and I think my confusion might be in understanding how those parameters are going to get applied to the function. 2015-02-19T16:02:32Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-02-19T16:03:01Z hitecnologys: tank9: if there might be confusion, redesign it, if possible. 2015-02-19T16:03:23Z hitecnologys: tank9: but if you want help, you need to be more specific. Like paste some code or whatever. 2015-02-19T16:05:17Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:06:22Z tank9: Thanks taylanub. Light has gone on. I didn't consider passing both the function #'+ and the list of parameters sequentially like that, and was doing something dumb trying to craft a function to wrap the behavior I wanted. 2015-02-19T16:07:01Z taylanub: tank9: well was it my solution or the others' that you wanted? (mine doesn't do what you actually asked above; I had misinterpreted your question) 2015-02-19T16:07:29Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:08:23Z clintm: hitecnologys: Thanks for that apply example. I too had forgotten about apply + mapcar magic. 2015-02-19T16:09:09Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T16:09:14Z hitecnologys: clintm: this works for every function. APPLY only allpies the last argument as a list and leaves all that come before intact. 2015-02-19T16:09:20Z tank9: Ah, I should be thanking hitecnologys instead. It was his example. 2015-02-19T16:09:30Z hitecnologys: Bleh, s/allpies/applies/. 2015-02-19T16:09:57Z pjb: all-pies-applies applies all pies to applies. 2015-02-19T16:10:15Z hitecnologys: Heh. 2015-02-19T16:10:54Z tank9: Thank you hitecnologys. 2015-02-19T16:13:00Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-02-19T16:14:56Z xificurC_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-02-19T16:16:18Z trn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T16:16:32Z rjmacready: RFC: rename apply to allpie 2015-02-19T16:17:28Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T16:20:35Z trn joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:21:06Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:21:22Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:22:35Z asoneth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:23:53Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:24:53Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:24:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:28:26Z gavilancomun quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150122214805]) 2015-02-19T16:29:07Z asoneth joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:30:14Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:30:41Z mega1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T16:31:02Z mega1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:31:35Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:31:47Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:31:59Z loke_: H4ns: nearby> 2015-02-19T16:32:01Z loke_: ? 2015-02-19T16:32:08Z H4ns: loke_: ack 2015-02-19T16:32:17Z loke_: H4ns: Cool. 2015-02-19T16:32:21Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2015-02-19T16:32:32Z loke_: H4ns: Have you looked at HTTP/2? 2015-02-19T16:32:40Z loke_: H4ns: Would it be hard to implement for hunchentoot? 2015-02-19T16:32:48Z H4ns: loke_: nope, sorry. 2015-02-19T16:33:31Z H4ns: loke_: i've stepped back from being the hunchentoot maintainer anyways. 2015-02-19T16:33:40Z loke_: I'm wondering how much benefit one would have from implementing it, as opposed to simply have HTTP/2 to the reverse proxy and then use plain HTTP to hunchentoot) 2015-02-19T16:34:04Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:35:12Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T16:35:39Z ethycol quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:35:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:36:35Z H4ns: it may be beneficial if you're interested in learning how http/2 works, but for production use, you'd probably use a proxy anyway. 2015-02-19T16:36:47Z loke_: H4ns: Yeah, I figured 2015-02-19T16:37:05Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T16:37:19Z loke_: a proxy should be able to have a single multiplexed connection with a browser, forwarding traffic to multiple backend hunchentoot instances, I think? 2015-02-19T16:37:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:37:59Z loke_: My application is written in such a way as I can spread load over any number of hunchentooters 2015-02-19T16:38:15Z loke_: (as long as rabbitmq and couchdb can keep up) 2015-02-19T16:40:14Z mutley89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T16:41:11Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2015-02-19T16:41:28Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:42:35Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:42:42Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:42:51Z nyef: G'morning all. 2015-02-19T16:44:51Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2015-02-19T16:45:10Z loke_: hello nyef 2015-02-19T16:45:15Z loke_: And it's not morning. 2015-02-19T16:45:21Z loke_: Well, extremely early morning perhaps :-) 2015-02-19T16:45:26Z loke_: 00:45 to be precise 2015-02-19T16:45:51Z Odin-: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html perhaps? 2015-02-19T16:46:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T16:46:49Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:46:53Z Odin-: (Is it bad that I looked up that URL as soon as I saw "G'morning", suspecting it'd be useful?) 2015-02-19T16:47:02Z loke_: Odin-: I don't agree with that. It suggests that I should may any attention what so ever to things that happens outside of where I am. I don't pay attention to irrelevancies. 2015-02-19T16:47:37Z nyef: loke_: I think that you're on the opposite side of the planet from me, it's almost noon here. 2015-02-19T16:47:57Z loke_: nyef: You are somewhere in america then I guess? 2015-02-19T16:48:49Z loke_: The exact opposite to me is in eastern Ecuador 2015-02-19T16:48:59Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:49:45Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T16:49:47Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:49:59Z Okasu joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:49:59Z nyef: Yeah, I'm in the New England area. 2015-02-19T16:50:01Z Okasu quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T16:50:09Z Odin-: loke_: UTC or bust! :p 2015-02-19T16:50:29Z loke_: Odin-: It's not my fault you live in the past :-) 2015-02-19T16:50:31Z nyef: ... And it's snowing. Again. /-: 2015-02-19T16:50:36Z loke_: Not here 2015-02-19T16:50:48Z loke_: 1°N is nice 2015-02-19T16:51:04Z Big_G quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T16:51:05Z Odin-: I like it where I am. 2015-02-19T16:51:13Z Odin-: 66°N. :D 2015-02-19T16:51:51Z mutley89 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T16:51:51Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T16:52:23Z loke_: I was raised in 59°N. Moving to the equator was nice, to say the least. 2015-02-19T16:54:13Z loke_: Hmm, new england is only 44°N according to my map 2015-02-19T16:54:42Z nyef: About that, yes. 2015-02-19T16:54:51Z loke_: Ah. Odin 2015-02-19T16:55:03Z Odin-: The U.S. is way south of anything. :p 2015-02-19T16:55:22Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-02-19T16:55:31Z loke_: Odin-: so if you're in America, then I'd suspect you're in northwest territories or something? 2015-02-19T16:55:40Z nyef: "Canada: Leading the world in being just north of the United States." 2015-02-19T16:55:41Z loke_: Yukon? 2015-02-19T16:55:43Z Odin-: I'm not in America. 2015-02-19T16:55:58Z loke_: Odin-: where are you then? 2015-02-19T16:55:59Z Odin-: Well, depending on how strict you are about geology. 2015-02-19T16:56:07Z nyef: Claiming for UTC would be on the other side of the pond, surely? 2015-02-19T16:56:22Z loke_: Ah Iceland 2015-02-19T16:56:42Z loke_: Northern iceland then 2015-02-19T16:56:48Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T16:57:04Z loke_: Reykjavik is 64°N :-) 2015-02-19T16:57:30Z Odin-: Quite so. North-west Iceland. 2015-02-19T16:58:08Z Odin-: Close enough to the arctic circle that atmospheric refraction makes the sun stay up for a few weeks in the height of summer. 2015-02-19T16:58:10Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-02-19T16:58:12Z loke_: Looks like Siberia looking at google maps :-) 2015-02-19T16:58:50Z loke_: Looks like an awesome place for mountin biking 2015-02-19T16:59:19Z loke_: I didn't really get into it until after I left Sweden 2015-02-19T16:59:34Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:00:21Z Odin-: Huh. Google Maps seems to have really messed up its URL scheme. 2015-02-19T17:00:41Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:00:52Z loke_: Reykjavik looks like any swedish small town :-0 2015-02-19T17:01:01Z Odin-: https://goo.gl/maps/WkpSo 2015-02-19T17:02:01Z loke_: OK 2015-02-19T17:02:06Z loke_: I absolutely have to go to Iceland 2015-02-19T17:03:29Z Odin-: If you pan up a bit to the north, there's a peninsula that's been deserted since 1952. It's pretty good for hiking. Can't really get there except by sea, though. 2015-02-19T17:10:25Z moore33: nyef: My parents have an insane amount of snow on the ground outside of Boston. Here, not so much :) 2015-02-19T17:11:03Z nyef: moore33: Yeah, I'm in New Hampshire right now and it's bad enough. I shudder to think what Boston is like. 2015-02-19T17:11:38Z Odin-: I think you must've gotten our dose. 2015-02-19T17:12:33Z radioninja quit (Quit: :wq) 2015-02-19T17:12:33Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T17:12:39Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:13:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:13:51Z loke_: I took this picture a couple of weeks ago. Not much snow: https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=6116443599302431010&oid=115209488640908180409&authkey=CLGIqcPG_sOOnAE 2015-02-19T17:14:23Z loke_: I mean this https://plus.google.com/photos/115209488640908180409/albums/5809382121629436753/6116443599302431010?authkey=CLGIqcPG_sOOnAE&pid=6116443599302431010&oid=115209488640908180409 2015-02-19T17:14:45Z loke_: Google's image sharing is teh sukc sometimes 2015-02-19T17:14:52Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:16:56Z Odin-: Hm. Requires login. 2015-02-19T17:17:14Z alezost joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:17:16Z Odin-: Heh. 2015-02-19T17:17:19Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-02-19T17:17:45Z Odin- wonders if Google Plus records were included in the warrant. 2015-02-19T17:17:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:19:02Z loke_: Odin-: Yeah, the first link was accidentally my "private" link (to my private image collection). That picture was also shared publicly, but OF COURSE I had to find that link by first clicking on the "shared album" (even though I originally chose the picture under the very same album) 2015-02-19T17:19:12Z loke_: Oh well, the second link should work 2015-02-19T17:19:18Z clintm: loke_: both worked for me, strangely. 2015-02-19T17:19:47Z alezost left #lisp 2015-02-19T17:19:49Z loke_: clintm: OK, that's even weirder. Like I said, it's kinda broken 2015-02-19T17:20:20Z clintm: Probably doesn't hurt that I am logged in to g+. 2015-02-19T17:20:59Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T17:21:54Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T17:22:19Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T17:23:08Z loke_: clintm: I have no idea :-) 2015-02-19T17:25:35Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T17:25:36Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:26:48Z Odin-: Google is odd. 2015-02-19T17:27:53Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:29:43Z rjmacready quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T17:29:49Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-02-19T17:29:54Z loke_: Well, time to sleep now. :-) 2015-02-19T17:30:00Z davazp joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:32:26Z cluck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T17:32:40Z cluck joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:32:44Z loke_ left #lisp 2015-02-19T17:32:50Z loke_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:33:34Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:34:27Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T17:34:33Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:36:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T17:39:16Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-02-19T17:42:40Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:43:03Z ssake quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T17:43:35Z ssake joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:43:37Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T17:45:40Z ssake quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T17:45:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T17:45:55Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2015-02-19T17:48:47Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-02-19T18:11:25Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-02-19T18:12:40Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T18:13:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T18:15:17Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T18:15:36Z |3b|: akkad: works fine on normal windows emacs, haven't tried ith cygwin version 2015-02-19T18:16:00Z |3b|: akkad: with sbcl, some things work better if you start sbcl separately by hand instead of letting slime start it though 2015-02-19T18:18:38Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-02-19T18:19:11Z sol__: any obvious reason why (step (foo)) doesn't work? i tell it to step into the call but it just calls foo and exits... foo is my function and calls another function i defined... (sbcl slime) 2015-02-19T18:19:38Z |3b|: clhs step 2015-02-19T18:19:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm 2015-02-19T18:19:57Z Bicyclidine: step steps through forms, not functions 2015-02-19T18:20:57Z sol__: (foo) isn't a form? 2015-02-19T18:21:13Z Bicyclidine: it is, but all it does is call foo 2015-02-19T18:21:26Z |3b|: looks like as long as form executes, it "works" according to the spec, not sure about sbcl specifically though increasing debug settings when the functions are compiled might help 2015-02-19T18:21:27Z Bicyclidine: foo calling another function is a property of foo, not of the form you're stepping through 2015-02-19T18:21:28Z pjb: sol__: obvious reason: it's not implemented (in ccl). 2015-02-19T18:21:35Z pjb: sol__: that's why I've implemented cl-stepper. 2015-02-19T18:22:06Z sol__: i switched to sbcl, and stepper doesn't work on ccl for me either 2015-02-19T18:22:22Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T18:22:30Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-02-19T18:22:54Z pjb: Since it's not implemented in ccl, obviously it won't work for anybody. 2015-02-19T18:23:10Z pjb: that's why I've implemented cl-stepper. 2015-02-19T18:23:19Z sol__: im saying cl-stepper:step didn't work either 2015-02-19T18:23:32Z sol__: and now on sbcl neither step nor cl-stepper:step work 2015-02-19T18:23:34Z pjb: Where is the bug report? 2015-02-19T18:23:37Z H4ns: sol__: use trace. it is very useful and works much better in practice. 2015-02-19T18:24:06Z sol__: i need to examine variables during calls... 2015-02-19T18:24:09Z H4ns: sol__: well, trace does work, whereas the stepper tends not to work in a useful fashion. 2015-02-19T18:24:36Z H4ns: sol__: http://netzhansa.blogspot.de/2012/02/traces-of-awesomeness.html 2015-02-19T18:25:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-02-19T18:25:24Z sol__: okay cool but i still would like to step into functions i feel very limited without it 2015-02-19T18:25:28Z |3b| usually just adds BREAK instead of trying to step or trace 2015-02-19T18:25:49Z H4ns: sol__: sorry to have to tell you that you can't get it. 2015-02-19T18:26:33Z sol__: but there is a step and cl-stepper, it just doesn't work for me... that what i'm asking - what's wrong with my setup 2015-02-19T18:26:57Z H4ns: sol__: just because it exists does not mean that it works. 2015-02-19T18:27:13Z |3b|: or that "works" implies anything useful 2015-02-19T18:27:15Z jsnell: are you compiling FOO with a high debug level? 2015-02-19T18:27:31Z pjb: or with the CL-STEPPER instead of the CL package? 2015-02-19T18:27:34Z sol__: jsnell, didn't touch any debug levels just installed sbcl and loaded slime 2015-02-19T18:28:22Z jsnell: that'd be the first problem, in sbcl the stepper is only enabled for code with (debug 3) optimization 2015-02-19T18:28:53Z wz1000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-02-19T18:29:40Z sol__: jsnell, thanks - (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3))) did the trick 2015-02-19T18:31:18Z sol__: why is everything so damn hard with lisp, every little thing has like 5 gotcha's :< 2015-02-19T18:31:48Z |3b|: age and lack of users mostly 2015-02-19T18:32:09Z pjb: What's hard? It's quite obvious that if you want to debug, you have to set the debugging level! With gcc you have -g3, with lisp it's (declaim (optimize (debug 3))). 2015-02-19T18:32:18Z pjb: Why are you so hard necked? 2015-02-19T18:32:22Z dlowe: But also, it evolved in a different direction starting a long time ago, and so the methods of development are different, and the good tools to support those methods are different 2015-02-19T18:33:19Z clintm: .... declaim? I've been using (declare (optimize (debug 3))) I'll have to look up the difference. 2015-02-19T18:33:20Z H4ns: sol__: if you approach lisp with the expectation that things work the way that they work with whatever you've been using before, you're bound to become frustrated. 2015-02-19T18:33:21Z a20150101 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T18:33:38Z H4ns: C-u C-c C-k recompiles a file with high debug level suitable for stepping 2015-02-19T18:33:56Z H4ns: but stepping is not very useful because macros. 2015-02-19T18:34:07Z tank9 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-02-19T18:34:08Z sol__: seems to me stepping should be enabled by default. pretty basic requirement to be able to step through your code. if you want to optimize THEN you should look into optimize proclamations 2015-02-19T18:34:15Z clintm: ah, ok, I got it. re declaim/declare. 2015-02-19T18:34:21Z pjb: H4ns: cl-stepper doesn't have any difficulty with macros. 2015-02-19T18:34:36Z |3b|: pjb: bad comparison... most C debuggers will happily step through non-debug code. debug info just gets you better experience 2015-02-19T18:34:45Z H4ns: sol__: you've not been using lisp long enough to really know what it "should" have :) 2015-02-19T18:34:46Z pjb: sol__: of course. That's what the rc files are for. 2015-02-19T18:35:45Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-02-19T18:36:50Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-02-19T18:37:57Z sol__: what are rc files 2015-02-19T18:38:35Z pjb: run command files. 2015-02-19T18:38:59Z pjb: They are those files that are loaded automatically at the start of the execution of a program, and that contains commands that are run. 2015-02-19T18:39:13Z pjb: A lot of unix programs have them. 2015-02-19T18:39:25Z sol__: and...? 2015-02-19T18:40:16Z pjb: and all lisp implementations (but one IIRC) have them too, and you can put there your declaimations and other initializations, so that you have your CL environment set up as you wish everytime you boot one. 2015-02-19T18:40:35Z clintm: ie. ~/.sbclrc? 2015-02-19T18:40:50Z sol__: yea right, gotcha 2015-02-19T18:41:18Z pjb: Well, instead of duplicating code, just put (load #P"~/common.lisp") in each of them and put the initialization in this single file. 2015-02-19T18:41:32Z sol__: this should affect the compilation of all packages i get throught quicklisp right? because i wan't to be able to debug them as well 2015-02-19T18:42:14Z Xach: sol__: you might have to remove your fasl cache first, by deleting ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 2015-02-19T18:42:15Z pjb: Some libraries are bitches and contain their own optimization declarations or declaimations. 2015-02-19T18:42:36Z clintm: bitches be trippin' 2015-02-19T18:43:11Z Xach: clintm: wrong channel. 2015-02-19T18:43:38Z pjb: For example, I've been bitten in the ass by cl-ppcre recently. Made me lose half a day. Can't say I regard it highly. 2015-02-19T18:43:55Z clintm: Xach: sorry, it was a lot funnier in my head. I'll keep it there next time. 2015-02-19T18:44:16Z sol__: Xach, thanks - i'm sure i would've lost like 3 hours looking for whats wrong :) 2015-02-19T18:44:45Z ggole quit 2015-02-19T19:00:57Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:02:59Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:05:28Z kons joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:09:17Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:11:17Z RenRenJuan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T19:11:34Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T19:12:07Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:12:59Z Shinmera: It works, hooray. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TXpjMg== 2015-02-19T19:13:19Z Shinmera: But it takes about a minute to compile and load the system, not so hooray. 2015-02-19T19:14:07Z oGMo: probably loads fast 2015-02-19T19:14:30Z innertracks1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:14:37Z oGMo: Shinmera: can you generate some stuff on the fly, and/or modularize? 2015-02-19T19:14:57Z Shinmera: What does "on the fly" imply for you? 2015-02-19T19:15:21Z oGMo: at compile time of forms utilizing a particular form 2015-02-19T19:15:40Z pjb: You take a fly, preferably a big one, and build some very small stuff on its back. 2015-02-19T19:15:41Z oGMo: i'm not sure that's possible in this case, and i don't know your API 2015-02-19T19:15:44Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how I would achieve that. 2015-02-19T19:16:21Z oGMo: presumably you're making methods look like functions 2015-02-19T19:16:21Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:16:32Z Shinmera: I'm generating wrappers for all methods, yes. 2015-02-19T19:16:53Z pjb: A little like that, http://tinyurl.com/insect-cyborg but with a fly. 2015-02-19T19:16:56Z oGMo: you could take an approach like CCL does for cocoa stuff, and define a reader form 2015-02-19T19:17:09Z Shinmera: That's what CommonQt does by default. 2015-02-19T19:17:19Z oGMo: well now you know why heh 2015-02-19T19:17:22Z angavrilov quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-02-19T19:17:40Z Shinmera: I did know why, I just wanted to see if it's even possible for me to do it all in reasonable time. 2015-02-19T19:17:43Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:17:50Z Shinmera: Or if it's conceptually feasible. 2015-02-19T19:17:51Z oGMo: otoh, if it loads fast after compilation, a minute isn't _terrible_ 2015-02-19T19:18:36Z oGMo: though it does mean you have a ton of functions and symbols in memory 2015-02-19T19:18:54Z Shinmera: Yeah. 2015-02-19T19:19:20Z Shinmera: Your idea of generating wrappers at compile time of forms that use the specific methods is really intriguing me though. I might be able to find an angle for that. 2015-02-19T19:20:45Z przl joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:20:47Z |3b| wonders if you could make closures and/or funcallable objects more quickly, and if there would be much runtime overhead if so 2015-02-19T19:21:17Z Shinmera: My system would be fairly ready for that -- I can generate the wrappers for particular methods, so the only problem left to solve is detecting when such a form is compiled. 2015-02-19T19:22:12Z oGMo: that's what i did in cl-plus-c for autowrap, because generating accessors was spewing out so many functions compile times were ridiculous 2015-02-19T19:22:42Z Shinmera: Generating everything for as many smoke modules as I can load results in a 65mb fasl. 2015-02-19T19:22:49Z oGMo: :o 2015-02-19T19:23:22Z Odin-: Is there any tree-based templating thingamabob for HTML in CL? 2015-02-19T19:23:38Z Shinmera: Odin-: What does "tree-based" mean? 2015-02-19T19:23:47Z Odin- hates text templates with a passion. 2015-02-19T19:23:50Z oGMo: i was wondering that 2015-02-19T19:23:55Z pjb: I've got an half-assed thingy like that used to generate my resume. 2015-02-19T19:24:26Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:24:30Z oGMo: i use cl-mustache or whatnot for textual templating in general, but that's very much textual 2015-02-19T19:24:32Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T19:24:48Z Odin-: Shinmera: Does its replacements on a quasi-DOM, rather than doing string concatenation. 2015-02-19T19:24:54Z Shinmera: Ah. 2015-02-19T19:24:55Z pjb: You can just consider the source sexp as your tree. 2015-02-19T19:24:56Z oGMo: i don't think i've seen anything enterprisey enough to work on DOM server-side 2015-02-19T19:25:01Z Shinmera: Odin-: Clip will do that. http://shinmera.github.io/clip/ 2015-02-19T19:25:20Z Shinmera: Or if you just want to manipulate a DOM through code, http://shinmera.github.io/lquery/ 2015-02-19T19:25:49Z oGMo: Shinmera: interesting, even looks fairly simple 2015-02-19T19:25:53Z Shinmera: Full disclaimer: My crappy software, I have no idea if there's better alternatives out there, but there probably are. 2015-02-19T19:25:58Z Odin-: Hah. Okay, that's funny. I've actually been looking into using Plump to build something of the sort. 8) 2015-02-19T19:26:18Z oGMo: personally i would recommend reconsidering the problem and not generating html at all, but you may be too far down the road for that :P 2015-02-19T19:26:53Z Odin-: oGMo: HTML tends to be a useful format for web sites. :p 2015-02-19T19:26:56Z oGMo: i.e., client-side..client that grabs and places content you send in a structural form from the server 2015-02-19T19:27:10Z oGMo: Odin-: you might be surprised 2015-02-19T19:28:02Z Shinmera: Odin-: Glad to hear you're thinking of using my libraries though! 2015-02-19T19:28:10Z therik joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:28:13Z therik: Hello 2015-02-19T19:29:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:30:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:30:09Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:32:05Z Odin-: oGMo: Static HTML with JavaScript feeding through XHR and JSON is great for when you're doing a bunch of manipulation of the main content. I really don't want to feed articles that should be individually findable by Google and facebook through that sort of mechanism. :p 2015-02-19T19:33:07Z therik: in CLOS, if I have child c inheriting from parents (pa pb), and both pa and pb have method m, then child is going to have pa's method m, since it comes earlier in that list. Suppose I want to implement method m in child that would wrap parent's methods, such that child's method can determine whether pa's implementation or pb's implementation of method should be called and then call it. Is that possible? 2015-02-19T19:33:31Z pjb: No. 2015-02-19T19:33:51Z therik: uch 2015-02-19T19:33:56Z therik: that's not very lispy 2015-02-19T19:33:59Z pjb: therik: notably, methods should do (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method)), and then pb method may be called as next method by pa method. 2015-02-19T19:34:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:34:46Z ecraven joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:35:04Z pjb: therik: the point is that it's pa method that may decide whether or not to call next method to have pb method called. 2015-02-19T19:35:13Z pjb: therik: a solution might be to define your own method combination. 2015-02-19T19:35:14Z Xach: therik: It seems possible that if different behavior is needed, there should be more than a single generic function. 2015-02-19T19:35:23Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:35:50Z Shinmera: Is there a way to check in a ASDF:PERFORM method whether :FORCE T was passed to the current operation? 2015-02-19T19:36:45Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:38:38Z therik: pjb, hmm, that's not what I want. So, real world example. I'm playing with a game, pa and pb are ranged attacking and melee attacking troop generic classes, from which all troops inherit. Child in this case is special, it has two types of attacks - it chooses based on proximity of enemy. Any other way to get around this? 2015-02-19T19:39:05Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:39:12Z pjb: your object model is wrong. You cannot use inheritance for roles. 2015-02-19T19:39:13Z Bicyclidine: Shinmera: looks like you can look through (operation-original-initargs op) 2015-02-19T19:39:25Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:39:34Z therik: pjb how can I improve then? 2015-02-19T19:39:46Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-02-19T19:39:51Z pjb: You could have class c with two slots role-pa and role-pb and your attack method will call (attack role-pa) or (attack role-pb). 2015-02-19T19:40:16Z Bicyclidine: Shinmera: hang on, there's an operation-forced function to do that for you 2015-02-19T19:40:44Z Bicyclidine: in the reverse compat interface, so it might be "bad" but who fucking knows with asdf sometimes 2015-02-19T19:41:07Z Shinmera: It's unexported, and also doesn't do what I need. 2015-02-19T19:41:13Z pjb: therik: it's a variant of the Stragegy pattern, where you keep several strategies and choose amongst them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_pattern 2015-02-19T19:41:15Z Bicyclidine: It doesn't? 2015-02-19T19:41:29Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-02-19T19:41:45Z Bicyclidine: it's exported from asdf/backward-interface 2015-02-19T19:41:48Z Shinmera: To be more precise, if I do (asdf:load-system :foo :force T) I want to check whether :force was T or NIL in a PERFORM on a component in that system. 2015-02-19T19:41:56Z therik: pjb, ok, so how woud I populate role-pa and role-pb in child? Via MOP? 2015-02-19T19:42:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:42:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-02-19T19:42:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:42:08Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: for the scenario I just described operation-forced returns NIL. 2015-02-19T19:42:21Z Bicyclidine: Shinmera: perform is called on (operation component), right? so just call it on the op... okay, weird. 2015-02-19T19:42:24Z attila_lendvai: cl.net got a new ssh key in the past couple of months? 2015-02-19T19:42:36Z pjb: therik: you do that when you initialize the child. Assumedly those role classes have slots that differe according to their owner. 2015-02-19T19:43:04Z therik: pjb, the point is, I've got ranged/melee classes and about 50 troop classes inheriting from each, so I'd like to keep polymorphysm on melee/ranged types, while adding dual-attack creatures 2015-02-19T19:43:15Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: It's a method specialising on PREPARE-OP, though I have no clue if that's at all relevant. 2015-02-19T19:43:35Z stratomula quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:43:37Z Shinmera: How ASDF actually plans things is still a complete mystery to mat at this point. 2015-02-19T19:43:40Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:43:41Z Shinmera: *me 2015-02-19T19:43:43Z Bicyclidine: ooookay looks like there's some weird crap in asdf/plan 2015-02-19T19:43:47Z pjb: therik: clearly, melee/ranged are strategies. Study this pattern, and adapt it to your needs. 2015-02-19T19:44:09Z Bicyclidine: there are, let's see, five different exported symbols with force in them, and two of them are predicate functions 2015-02-19T19:44:12Z therik: pjb ah, I see, so instead of inheriting from melee/ranged I'd just inject them on initialization, is that what you mean? 2015-02-19T19:44:36Z therik: plus modify the code accordingly 2015-02-19T19:44:37Z pjb: yes. 2015-02-19T19:44:46Z therik: ok, thanks a lot 2015-02-19T19:45:03Z therik: I didn't know this thing about roles 2015-02-19T19:45:28Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:45:31Z pjb: you could have a multiple-strategy subclass of your abstract strategy class to wrap several strategies and select one or the other, so you wouldn't have to implement this part in all the objects that have multiple-strategies. 2015-02-19T19:45:41Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:45:56Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: action-forced-p might be what I need, but for that I have to get access to the plan instance. 2015-02-19T19:45:58Z therik: pjb, great! 2015-02-19T19:46:11Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:46:24Z pjb: therik: role pattern: http://hillside.net/plop/plop97/Proceedings/riehle.pdf 2015-02-19T19:46:33Z therik: after years of java and php I'm finally learning OO.. 2015-02-19T19:46:47Z therik: on the other hand, I'm slightly disappointed that clos can't do it 2015-02-19T19:47:11Z therik: "that's not the right way to use it" usually isn't excuse in lisp world 2015-02-19T19:47:33Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T19:47:35Z Xach: therik: I think it will help to stop thinking of methods as belonging to classes and start think about them as belonging to generic functions. Then design with generic functions first. 2015-02-19T19:47:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:48:30Z ynniv quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T19:48:32Z therik: Xach, I am, but maybe I'm missing something 2015-02-19T19:49:32Z pjb: therik: Check my two Design Pattern articles: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Object-Oriented-Programming 2015-02-19T19:50:09Z stratomula joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:50:11Z Xach: therik: if you write things like "pa and pb have a method m" it seems like that is not fully the case 2015-02-19T19:50:17Z pjb: If you think you may have to implement a design pattern more than once, you may wrap it in a macro. 2015-02-19T19:50:31Z Xach: there is a generic function m with methods specialized on pa and pb. 2015-02-19T19:50:36Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:51:05Z Xach: generic functions assemble functionality by collecting applicable methods 2015-02-19T19:51:23Z Pastaf is now known as ignucius 2015-02-19T19:51:27Z ignucius is now known as Pastaf 2015-02-19T19:52:02Z therik: Xach, yup, that's the other way to put it, but I don't see a difference from standard object model, except that methods are written separately, thus can have more than one object "left from the dot" in java speech. Can't see any other difference. 2015-02-19T19:52:24Z Xach: Ok, maybe in time you will understand how very different it is. 2015-02-19T19:53:15Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:53:34Z pjb: therik: the most visible difference of attaching methods to functions, instead of to classes, is that in CLOS, we do not send messages to objects, and therefore, it is not possible to handle "unknown" or "unexpected" messages as we can in other (real) OO languages (Smalltalk, Objective-C, etc). 2015-02-19T19:53:38Z therik: seems to me that usual OO is made from object's point of view and clos is made from polymorphism point of view 2015-02-19T19:53:56Z pjb: therik: but you can implement easily a Smalltalk-like object system in CL. 2015-02-19T19:54:47Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T19:55:15Z therik: I think I have to type more lisp to get it, I just can't see it now 2015-02-19T19:56:41Z White_Flame: "usual OO" is pretty much a simplification intended to make easier compilers 2015-02-19T19:57:02Z White_Flame: and yes, there are some tricks you can learn by being locked into those simplifications 2015-02-19T19:57:24Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-02-19T19:58:09Z devll joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:00:19Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529%40naggum.no.html has an overview 2015-02-19T20:00:22Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:01:23Z White_Flame: btw, I might be an outlier, but the more I use CL, the less I turn to defclass 2015-02-19T20:02:45Z Odin-: "This is not object-orientation, it is just plain lunacy." 2015-02-19T20:02:50Z Odin-: That's not beating around the bush. 2015-02-19T20:04:24Z therik: White_Flame, do you mean you use macros or functions? 2015-02-19T20:04:52Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:06:01Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-02-19T20:06:14Z White_Flame: it's kind of hard not to use macros & functions. I don't understand what you're asking 2015-02-19T20:07:27Z therik: White_Flame, whether you're moving away from OO or just abstracting "defclass" with macros 2015-02-19T20:07:27Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T20:08:24Z White_Flame: I'm not abstracting defclass. I'm not using defclass anywhere in pretty much all of my code for the last 7 years or so 2015-02-19T20:08:32Z White_Flame: maybe hidden in some non-core utility libraries 2015-02-19T20:08:56Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-02-19T20:09:01Z White_Flame: well, to be precise, I'm not writing defclass calls or abstractions anywhere. Certainly I'm "using" it via 3rd party libraries 2015-02-19T20:10:14Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:11:18Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T20:13:25Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:14:16Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:14:23Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:14:53Z taspat joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:16:13Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:17:39Z antoszka: Guys, has the home of clqr (clqr.berlios.de) gone down permanently? Anyone in the know? 2015-02-19T20:18:26Z antoszka: It'd be a pity to permanently lose the whole git repo. 2015-02-19T20:18:49Z antoszka: (well, I have a checkout, so I guess I could host it elsewhere for public utility) 2015-02-19T20:20:31Z sol__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:21:32Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:23:02Z Xach: antoszka: i think it uses a new domain name 2015-02-19T20:23:16Z Xach: antoszka: http://clqr.boundp.org/ is it 2015-02-19T20:23:26Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:24:57Z Soft joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:25:06Z devll quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T20:26:08Z lispyone joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:26:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:27:51Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:32:40Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:34:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:34:04Z Odin-: Xach: That message you pasted a link to is a pretty interesting read. Seems the recipient took note of it, too, considering the book he wrote. :p 2015-02-19T20:35:22Z Xach: the book is very good about using CLOS to the fullest 2015-02-19T20:35:49Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:35:51Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-02-19T20:38:29Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:43:31Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:46:37Z stratomula quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:48:31Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:50:57Z gko__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-02-19T20:51:06Z Bicyclidine: Shinmera: it might be that the new asdf model is that :force t controls which operations occur, rather than how each operation is carried out. if so i'm not sure perform is going to know anything... 2015-02-19T20:51:23Z Shinmera: Right, that's what I feared. 2015-02-19T20:51:57Z Shinmera: My problem is that in the prepare-op I need to generate the actual lisp file to compile and load, but I only want to generate that file if it doesn't exist, or the user explicitly asks for it to be regenerated through :force. 2015-02-19T20:52:02Z Bicyclidine: i'm guessing what you're doing has to do with something slightly creative like autogenerating code or compiling C++ or som- right 2015-02-19T20:52:43Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:52:48Z Bicyclidine: i guess you'd have the prepare-op always generate the file, and arrange for the prepare-op to only happen if there's no file or through force... maybe. too bad fare isn't around. 2015-02-19T20:53:14Z Shinmera: If it always generates the file then the timestamps get screwed and it'll always compile and load. 2015-02-19T20:53:15Z stratomula joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:53:41Z Bicyclidine: well i mean, the prepare-op always does, but the prepare-op doesn't happen if the file's there. i dunno. grasping at straws, sorry. 2015-02-19T20:54:12Z Shinmera: It's mostly a cosmetic thing; I can always require the user to manually remove the file if they want to regenerate 2015-02-19T20:54:22Z Shinmera: But it'd be lovely if I could use :force for that too. 2015-02-19T20:55:26Z taylanub quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-02-19T20:55:31Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T20:55:35Z taylanub joined #lisp 2015-02-19T20:56:02Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i can certainly see why you'd want that. 2015-02-19T20:59:30Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:01:57Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2015-02-19T21:02:47Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:05:43Z ikki joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:07:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:11:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T21:12:25Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:14:09Z asoneth quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2015-02-19T21:14:47Z _Loic_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:16:02Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T21:16:37Z innertracks1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:17:43Z impulse- quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-02-19T21:19:07Z PaulCapestany quit 2015-02-19T21:21:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:21:56Z PaulCapestany joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:24:23Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-02-19T21:28:53Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:31:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:32:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:36:11Z oleo: anyone have any idea about that one here ? 2015-02-19T21:36:13Z oleo: http://picpaste.com/pics/error-TElulMZK.1424381746.png 2015-02-19T21:36:32Z ajtulloch joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:36:33Z aretecode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T21:39:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:39:39Z Vutral quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-02-19T21:39:50Z aretecode joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:40:13Z lmohseni joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:40:36Z lmohseni: :2 2015-02-19T21:40:52Z prxq joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:41:46Z ruste quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T21:42:27Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:44:05Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:45:13Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:45:20Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T21:48:17Z lmohseni quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-02-19T21:49:17Z lmohseni joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:50:30Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:51:20Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:53:05Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-02-19T21:53:54Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T21:54:23Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:56:50Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-02-19T21:57:55Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-02-19T21:58:54Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:59:15Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:59:56Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-02-19T21:59:57Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-02-19T22:09:08Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:09:11Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:15:04Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T22:18:34Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:20:38Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:21:21Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:21:43Z antoszka: Xach: Ah, cool, that makes it simpler, thanks :) 2015-02-19T22:23:43Z kuzy000_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:25:03Z csziacobus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:25:05Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:26:32Z oleo is now known as Guest20700 2015-02-19T22:26:59Z _Loic_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:27:23Z sol__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:28:37Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-02-19T22:29:03Z faheem_: Did Eric Naggum ever spend time on this channel? Just curious. 2015-02-19T22:29:14Z resttime joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:29:47Z Guest20700 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:30:28Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-02-19T22:31:22Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2-dev) 2015-02-19T22:31:35Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:33:25Z antoszka: seen naggum 2015-02-19T22:33:41Z antoszka: Bots. 2015-02-19T22:34:25Z faheem_: antoszka: pardon? 2015-02-19T22:34:53Z taylanub: faheem_: ey wanted to use the channel bot but it seems to have disappeared 2015-02-19T22:35:15Z antoszka: I was trying to get a bot tell me if Erik when (if) Erik was last seen on this channel. 2015-02-19T22:35:19Z Bicyclidine: logs only go back to 2008, at which point i don't think he was chillin on irc 2015-02-19T22:36:57Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:37:19Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:38:02Z nyef: minion: Seen naggum? 2015-02-19T22:38:06Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-02-19T22:38:11Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:38:25Z nyef: Ah, no minion? 2015-02-19T22:38:35Z przl joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:38:59Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:39:11Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:39:12Z ethycol joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:40:41Z antgreen joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:41:18Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:41:54Z lmohseni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T22:42:14Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T22:42:23Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:43:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:44:06Z pillton joined #lisp 2015-02-19T22:49:05Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T22:53:15Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T22:58:12Z nell joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:02:00Z nell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T23:02:40Z antgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-02-19T23:03:19Z ehu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-02-19T23:06:19Z faheem_: nyef: Eric Naggum died years ago. 2015-02-19T23:06:35Z faheem_: I just wondered if he came here, back in the day. 2015-02-19T23:06:59Z faheem_: 2009, to be precise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Naggum 2015-02-19T23:07:25Z faheem_: Bicyclidine: 2008 is pretty long ago. I'm surprised. 2015-02-19T23:07:35Z zacts joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:07:36Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:08:16Z Bicyclidine: well, the channel was founded 2003, though it might actually be a server migration or whatever 2015-02-19T23:09:19Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-02-19T23:10:18Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:10:32Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-02-19T23:11:07Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-02-19T23:13:37Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:15:00Z Vutral_ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:15:56Z faheem_: Bicyclidine: hmm 2015-02-19T23:16:05Z faheem_: So recently? Surprising. 2015-02-19T23:16:34Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:16:47Z Bicyclidine: we used chaosnet before that, obviously 2015-02-19T23:17:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:17:13Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:17:15Z ethycol quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:17:32Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:18:10Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-02-19T23:18:37Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-02-19T23:18:53Z nyef: faheem_: I'm aware of his death. But minion has a somewhat-amusing response to "seen" queries. 2015-02-19T23:19:10Z oleo: anoyne using closure ? 2015-02-19T23:19:14Z oleo: anyone* 2015-02-19T23:19:20Z oleo: can't get it to work.... 2015-02-19T23:19:40Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-02-19T23:19:41Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:19:59Z nyef: oleo: The window manager? 2015-02-19T23:20:20Z nell joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:21:04Z oleo: closure the browser..... 2015-02-19T23:21:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:22:17Z akkad: naming things is hard 2015-02-19T23:25:01Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:26:47Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:27:34Z csziacobus: got slime-mdot-fu working :DDD 2015-02-19T23:34:24Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-02-19T23:34:38Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:34:55Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:38:16Z ethycol joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:40:19Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:41:16Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-02-19T23:41:34Z grantix joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:42:57Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:45:01Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:46:14Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-02-19T23:49:10Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:50:58Z oleo: (asdf:defsystem glisp :pathname (merge-pathnames "src/glisp/" (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults *load-truename*) results in error when i load the .asd file but when i put that expression (type-of (merge-pathnames "src/glisp" (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults *load-truename*))) i get PATHNAME as a type where is the error in that ? 2015-02-19T23:52:17Z oleo: The value of PATHNAME is (MERGE-PATHNAMES "src/glisp/" (MAKE-PATHNAME :NAME NIL :TYPE NIL 2015-02-19T23:52:17Z oleo: :DEFAULTS 2015-02-19T23:52:17Z oleo: *LOAD-TRUENAME*)), which is not of type (OR NULL STRING PATHNAME) 2015-02-19T23:52:38Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-02-19T23:52:42Z pillton: oleo: Do you know if ASDF evaluates the pathname keyword? 2015-02-19T23:52:47Z oleo: ? 2015-02-19T23:52:49Z pillton: ..keyword value? 2015-02-19T23:52:50Z oleo: no i don't 2015-02-19T23:53:03Z pillton: Try putting #. in front of the (merge-pathnames ..). 2015-02-19T23:53:06Z oleo: i'm not sure what's happening 2015-02-19T23:53:12Z oleo: hmm 2015-02-19T23:53:21Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:53:45Z oleo: ok that works 2015-02-19T23:54:54Z oleo: but is that expected behaviour ? 2015-02-19T23:56:03Z pillton: I don't know. It depends on what ASDF:DEFSYSTEM thinks the pathname keyword argument is. 2015-02-19T23:56:08Z oleo: You are visiting #u"http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/".debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread 2015-02-19T23:56:08Z oleo: #: 2015-02-19T23:56:08Z oleo: HTTP repsonse line '' has illegal syntax. <- what might cause this one ? 2015-02-19T23:56:26Z pillton: Please don't paste in here. 2015-02-19T23:56:41Z oleo: oh sorry ok 2015-02-19T23:56:45Z oleo: forgot again.... 2015-02-19T23:56:47Z pillton: minion: Tell oleo about paste.lisp.org 2015-02-19T23:57:20Z pillton needs to give minion some more biscuits. 2015-02-19T23:58:00Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-02-19T23:58:59Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)