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2015-02-18T00:04:20Z jasom: Is it permitted for this to be nil: (let ((x 1)) (eq x x)
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2015-02-18T00:04:50Z pillton: Yes!
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2015-02-18T00:05:02Z jasom: I know (eq 1 1) can be nil, but disagree that (let ((x 1)) (eq x x)) can be nil
2015-02-18T00:05:12Z pillton: clhs eq
2015-02-18T00:05:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
2015-02-18T00:05:18Z pillton: Check out the note section.
2015-02-18T00:05:33Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: never use EQ
2015-02-18T00:05:38Z pillton: "An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time."
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2015-02-18T00:05:45Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: I know, I was just in a debate with someone on hn
2015-02-18T00:06:41Z pillton: lp 1398785
2015-02-18T00:06:42Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1398785
2015-02-18T00:06:59Z pillton: I ran in to this in the above.
2015-02-18T00:08:33Z jasom: I see, it could copy the number at the function-call to eql
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2015-02-18T00:09:20Z pillton: What is "hn"?
2015-02-18T00:09:32Z jasom: pillton: Hacker News; http://news.ycombinator.com
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2015-02-18T00:11:15Z pillton: Ta.
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2015-02-18T01:20:54Z AeroNotix: fe[nl]ix: evaet niaj
2015-02-18T01:21:16Z AeroNotix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UAnq33zRq8
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2015-02-18T02:33:41Z drmeister: I'm running into some trouble implementing closures with the Cleavir/Clasp compiler.  It's a question of what exactly the "enclose" instruction is supposed to do and when the function pointers for the function that they enclose is available.
2015-02-18T02:34:04Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/1QfJXu8
2015-02-18T02:34:46Z drmeister: Each "enter" instruction defines a function that will at some point have a function pointer.
2015-02-18T02:35:11Z drmeister: When I compile the HIR I generate an llvm Module containing three functions (three "enter" instructions).
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2015-02-18T02:35:37Z drmeister: The llvm JIT does the entire Module at once.  I can't JIT individual functions.
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2015-02-18T02:36:13Z drmeister: Hmm, I wonder if I have to ensure that these functions don't get inlined within each other.
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2015-02-18T02:40:47Z drmeister: Anyway, only once the Module is JITted are the function pointers available.
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2015-02-18T02:42:42Z Mawile: Silly question, but can format access the values in dotted lists?
2015-02-18T02:42:42Z Mawile: I'm aware you can car and cdr them first, but I mean exclusively from within format.
2015-02-18T02:43:36Z Mawile: The Hyperspec doesn't seem to mention much about dotted lists in it's format documentation.
2015-02-18T02:48:17Z drmeister: So I think I need to 1) Convert the "enclose" instruction to an "precalc-enclose" instruction that looks up a closure object in the precalc-value array at the next available index. 2) create a closure object for each function at compile time and store them in the precalc-value array at the correct index. 3) Update the closure objects with function pointers
2015-02-18T02:48:17Z drmeister: once they are available 4) When the code runs the "precalc-enclose" code it looks up the closure object (with the function pointer), makes a copy and fills its environment with the cells that have been constructed for it.
2015-02-18T02:48:39Z drmeister: Oh what a tangled web we weave.
2015-02-18T02:49:03Z Xach: Mawile: no
2015-02-18T02:49:32Z Mawile: Ah, alright.
2015-02-18T02:50:57Z Xach: if you use ~/, then you can do a lot of stuff
2015-02-18T02:51:00Z Xach: but normally, no
2015-02-18T02:51:23Z Mawile: It was for a little mental exercise, and format is pretty sizable, so I wasn't sure if I missed something. Thanks..!
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2015-02-18T04:15:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-02-18T04:15:59Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-02-18T04:20:22Z drmeister: Hey beach
2015-02-18T04:20:51Z drmeister: "enclose" is giving me some grief.
2015-02-18T04:21:20Z beach: What kind of grief?
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2015-02-18T04:21:55Z drmeister: Well trying to implement "enclose" with llvm - really.
2015-02-18T04:22:04Z drmeister: Here's what I'm looking at.
2015-02-18T04:22:11Z beach: What does your current compiler do to create closures?
2015-02-18T04:22:32Z drmeister: magic
2015-02-18T04:22:50Z beach: Cleavir was not designed to support magic.
2015-02-18T04:22:58Z drmeister: Darnit
2015-02-18T04:23:57Z drmeister: My current compiler uses it's environments to build closures - we discussed them - they are terribly inefficient.
2015-02-18T04:24:04Z drmeister: its
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2015-02-18T04:24:30Z drmeister: The problem I'm running into is when I compile a top-level form - several functions will be generated, one for each "enter"
2015-02-18T04:25:04Z drmeister: I generate those as llvm functions within an llvm Module.
2015-02-18T04:25:37Z drmeister: I JIT the Module with all of the functions at one time.  So the function pointers aren't available when I generate the code for the functions.
2015-02-18T04:27:49Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how to generate code for the "enclose" instruction because the code needs the function address.
2015-02-18T04:28:57Z drmeister: Anyway, it's messing about with low-level implementation details of llvm - sorry.
2015-02-18T04:29:08Z someon is now known as someone
2015-02-18T04:29:17Z beach: Nothing to be sorry about.  It's just that I am not able to help with that.
2015-02-18T04:30:31Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm generating good looking llvm-ir for everything else.   Once I get this "enclose" instruction sorted out I should be able to run something.
2015-02-18T04:30:58Z beach: Great!
2015-02-18T04:31:20Z drmeister: Fetch, create-cell, write-cell, read-cell, F->M, enter(for required arguments)
2015-02-18T04:31:50Z Bike: i brought up clasp as an example of open source academic code today. i guess that nanotech thing might have been better, but you don't exactly have a github repo for it
2015-02-18T04:32:20Z drmeister: Yeah - sorry - not quite ready for primetime.
2015-02-18T04:32:33Z beach: Bike: In what context did you bring it up?
2015-02-18T04:32:41Z drmeister: Also, pushing molecules through wires - haven't quite figured out that yet.
2015-02-18T04:32:56Z Bike: "hey boss, why don't we open source our project too? here's github, doesn't it look nice"
2015-02-18T04:33:10Z beach: I see.
2015-02-18T04:33:43Z Bike: it's kind of a weird intersection. there's stuff like code revisions being published as papers in journals
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2015-02-18T04:37:41Z beach: Bike: Am I missing something?  I don't understand what you mean.  You are being very telegraphic.  Maybe it is just that I am not awake yet.
2015-02-18T04:38:12Z Bike: oh, am I? i just mean how code stuff works in non-CS academics.
2015-02-18T04:38:30Z beach: It is published in journals?
2015-02-18T04:38:39Z Bike: yeah. as word documents, sometimes
2015-02-18T04:38:46Z beach: Amazing!
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2015-02-18T04:40:18Z Bike: i guess that's one wway to describe undocumented tarballs :p
2015-02-18T04:40:35Z Bike: i'm glad there are people like drmeister who take it seriously.
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2015-02-18T04:43:16Z beach: There is a long history of scientists that don't take CS or any other aspect of software seriously.
2015-02-18T04:44:00Z drmeister: I think I'm just confusing myself with what's going on at compile-time vs load/link-time vs run-time
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2015-02-18T04:44:13Z drmeister: Gah this is complicated
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2015-02-18T04:44:41Z Bike: what in particular?
2015-02-18T04:46:27Z drmeister: When I'm generating llvm-ir at compile time, I create an llvm::Function object.   I think I can use that llvm::Function object in the llvm-ir and at load/link-time it will be represented by a relocatable pointer to the function.  At run-time it should be the pointer to the function.
2015-02-18T04:47:42Z drmeister: I know this for llvm::GlobalValue but I haven't done this with Functions.  But llvm::Function inherits from llvm::GlobalValue
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2015-02-18T04:49:23Z spacebatty: I have an method (setf slot-name) :around that I'd like to remove, but having trouble formating the call to remove-method to get rid of it
2015-02-18T04:49:26Z drmeister: I was about to do something complicated and stupid when it's really very simple.
2015-02-18T04:49:36Z drmeister thinks
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2015-02-18T04:50:17Z Bike: spacebatty: i think most people give up and use the slime inspector (M-x slime-inspect)
2015-02-18T04:50:37Z spacebatty: :)
2015-02-18T04:50:58Z spacebatty: I just gave up and redefined it to (call-next-method) until I next restart the system
2015-02-18T04:51:40Z drmeister: The slime inspector lets you remove methods?
2015-02-18T04:51:52Z beach: Yes.
2015-02-18T04:52:02Z drmeister: How do you - what do you inspect?
2015-02-18T04:52:11Z Bike: the gf
2015-02-18T04:52:12Z beach: The generic function.
2015-02-18T04:52:26Z Bike: and it has a list of methods, and you go to the one you want to remove, and you hit r or something
2015-02-18T04:52:30Z drmeister: Oh dear lard
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2015-02-18T04:52:47Z beach: Or you can use the mouse.
2015-02-18T04:52:54Z Bike: oh, it says "[remove method]7". nice and easy
2015-02-18T04:53:05Z Bike: [remove method] rather, not that i got the color right
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2015-02-18T04:54:14Z spacebatty: thanks, I just removed it via slime
2015-02-18T04:54:15Z drmeister: Must fix my implementation of swank to support that.
2015-02-18T04:54:29Z drmeister makes a mental note.
2015-02-18T04:54:39Z spacebatty: drmeister: what's different about your swank?
2015-02-18T04:54:57Z drmeister (s) mental note falls out of his ear onto the floor and slithers under the desk
2015-02-18T04:55:01Z beach: spacebatty: It doesn't support "remove method". :)
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2015-02-18T04:55:14Z drmeister: spacebatty: It's for my implementation of Common Lisp.
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2015-02-18T05:10:17Z spacebatty: drmeister: clasp?
2015-02-18T05:10:29Z drmeister: Yup
2015-02-18T05:10:43Z spacebatty: nice, been meaning to play with that sometime
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2015-02-18T05:13:56Z drmeister: Thanks - it's going to get a lot nicer soon.
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2015-02-18T07:50:13Z loke: drmeister: Is it possible nor mere mortals to compile clasp now?
2015-02-18T07:50:15Z loke: for
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2015-02-18T09:22:17Z flash-: Has anyone here successfully compiled ECL with Visual Studio 2013?
2015-02-18T09:22:42Z flash-: I can compile it with VS2010 without problems, but not with VS2013.
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2015-02-18T10:04:08Z rjmacready: flash-: what's the issue? compiler/linking errors?
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2015-02-18T10:15:20Z flash-: rjmacready: Compiler error. I would have to recompile to get the exact error message (am currently using the VS2010 version).
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2015-02-18T10:18:07Z rjmacready: flash-: ah ok. maybe i can try latter (way latter ...) and get back to you. this may overly-obvious, but stackoverflow may provide feedback on this. But it may be that VS2013 is using a wrong / badly installted toolchain, and I think you can trick VS 2013 into using VS 2010 tool chain (if that's of any interest ...)
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2015-02-18T10:18:46Z rjmacready: stackoverflow: meaning, there's usually workarounds for *weird* VS compiler errors
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2015-02-18T10:20:52Z flash-: The issue is not which toolchain VS uses - the problem is that if I use the VS 2010 compiler I need a VS2010 compatible qt for eql, which means that I have to juggle around with multiple qt versions in addition to using multiple vs versions.
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2015-02-18T10:25:28Z rjmacready: flash-: ah i see ... i've had issues with qt and vs ...but iirc my issue ended up being in the linkage phase, exactly due to toolchain issues
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2015-02-18T10:37:27Z flash-: Here are the errors I get when compiling ecl with VS2013: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/96ddedbbcac68b01e2da
2015-02-18T10:38:09Z rjmacready: hmmm weird
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2015-02-18T10:46:08Z rjmacready: flash-: can you increase VS verbosity? Options > Projects and Solutions > Build and Run > "MSBuild project build output verbosity" > Detailed
2015-02-18T10:46:34Z rjmacready: and then you have a "Output window", if not visible you can call it from the View menu
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2015-02-18T10:47:05Z flash-: This is an nmake build, ecl has a makefile, not a VS project.
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2015-02-18T10:49:39Z rjmacready: flash-: i think nmake is powerful enough to understand makefiles, i've already built ecl with VS (iirc ...)
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2015-02-18T10:51:27Z flash-: I don't quite follow. I meant to say that I can't change the verbosity in the project options, because there is no project. That nmake is able to use this makefile can be seen by the successful build with VS2010 nmake.
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2015-02-18T11:01:59Z rjmacready: flash-: ah i see
2015-02-18T11:02:31Z rjmacready: i think the procedure is to open the VS command line interface, go to ecl root and issue "nmake"
2015-02-18T11:03:10Z flash-: Yes, that is what I do.
2015-02-18T11:03:24Z rjmacready: ok
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2015-02-18T11:05:14Z rjmacready: i should try it then, sorry for the misdirected help.
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2015-02-18T11:06:46Z flash-: No problem, trying to help is better than not to. ;-)
2015-02-18T11:07:09Z rjmacready: hmm ecl's site appears to be down
2015-02-18T11:07:56Z rjmacready: flash-: have you tried mkcl (https://common-lisp.net/project/mkcl/) ?
2015-02-18T11:08:19Z rjmacready: i think it attempts to continue ecl's saga, i think ecl has stopped being actively maintained
2015-02-18T11:09:13Z rjmacready: compilation on windows seems to be awkward though (via cygwin)
2015-02-18T11:09:25Z rjmacready: isnt there a github mirror for ecl?!?
2015-02-18T11:11:27Z flash-: rjmacready: I use ecl because of eql, which requires ecl.
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2015-02-18T11:12:20Z flash-: I'm also having trouble with the main page, but the sourceforge page is available: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ecls/files/
2015-02-18T11:12:46Z rjmacready: flash-: does it bundle ecl? i found an unofficial mirror on github
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2015-02-18T11:12:53Z rjmacready: ah ok
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2015-02-18T11:17:39Z rjmacready: flash-: weird, i have VS 2010, 2012 and 2013 installed, but i've no command line for 2013
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2015-02-18T11:18:39Z flash-: It can be found under "Visual Studio Tools" in the start menu, which opens a folder with links.
2015-02-18T11:20:01Z rjmacready: flash-: lol, yeah, nevermind :P i'm getting old, i couldnt find the "visual studio 2013" folder
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2015-02-18T11:21:04Z rjmacready: ok, building ...
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2015-02-18T11:23:17Z rjmacready: flash-: getting the same error \ :D /
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2015-02-18T11:24:22Z flash-: I guess I'll have to live with it. As I don't plan to do anything productive with it, it's OK working with the VS2010 version.
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2015-02-18T11:36:30Z rjmacready: flash-: really weird, it builds with VS 2010. this needs a careful eye, which i cant supply right now ...
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2015-02-18T11:40:06Z rjmacready: flash-: was it you https://www.mail-archive.com/ecls-list@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03004.html ?
2015-02-18T11:41:40Z flash-: No, that wasn't me. My google skills aren't good enough obviously, I never found that message.
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2015-02-18T11:51:59Z rjmacready: flash-: there's actually two threads, but no response https://www.mail-archive.com/ecls-list@lists.sourceforge.net/ (look for "2013")
2015-02-18T11:52:13Z rjmacready: flash-: conclusion: try to get it done with VS2010 :\
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2015-02-18T11:54:38Z flash-: Interestingly, according to that mailing list, someone volunteered to become maintainer of ecl last sunday, and the original developer (Garcia-Ripoll) agreed. So we might see some fixes in the near future.
2015-02-18T11:57:03Z rjmacready: flash-: ah nice. it's sad to see ecl floating dead
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2015-02-18T12:14:18Z Harag: is sbcl.org down?
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2015-02-18T12:16:03Z flash-: Harag: Yes, for me and according to isitdownrightnow.com
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2015-02-18T12:17:19Z Harag: thanx
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2015-02-18T13:05:50Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-02-18T13:06:25Z didi: I want to compare 4 datums to know if they are `eql'. `eql' has only two parameters. I came up with (defun my-eql (a b &rest rest) (every (lambda (x) (eql x a)) (list* b rest))). Is there a better way to compare, using `eql', more than 2 datums?
2015-02-18T13:07:36Z jackdaniel: (reduce #'eql datums) (?)
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2015-02-18T13:07:48Z jackdaniel: nah,s orry
2015-02-18T13:07:53Z Grue`: i also thought about reduce but it wont work
2015-02-18T13:08:14Z Grue`: unless eql is made to return first argument instead of t
2015-02-18T13:08:37Z dim:  -- Function: eql x y → generalized-boolean
2015-02-18T13:08:38Z Grue`: and something non-eqlable as nil
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2015-02-18T13:09:36Z jackdaniel: (reduce (lambda (x y) (when (eql x y) x)) datums) ; ?
2015-02-18T13:10:05Z didi: The problem with reduce is that it doesn't stop if the datums aren't `eql', right?
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2015-02-18T13:10:17Z Grue`: (= (length (remove-duplicates '(1 1 1))) 1)
2015-02-18T13:10:22Z taylanub: I'd go with the my-eql, just naming it eql* instead (or is that a Schemism?)
2015-02-18T13:10:38Z jackdaniel: eql* is fine
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2015-02-18T13:11:44Z didi: Grue`: Thanks. But I am afraid it generates unnecessary conses when comparing to the `every' form.
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2015-02-18T13:12:13Z didi: taylanub: Interesting. I haven't encountered such naming convention.
2015-02-18T13:12:33Z Grue`: nah it wasn't a serious attempt, i just wanted to try some set-like solution
2015-02-18T13:12:33Z jackdaniel: (every (lambda (x) (eql (car datums))) datums)
2015-02-18T13:13:06Z taylanub: didi: it's kind of used to just generally mean "alternative" nowadays I think, but originally comes from the star operator like in regexps I think, denoting a sequence
2015-02-18T13:13:16Z Grue`: that's pretty elegant, though maybe it should work on (cdr datums)
2015-02-18T13:13:32Z Grue`: because car and car are always identical
2015-02-18T13:13:44Z jackdaniel: Grue`: right
2015-02-18T13:13:49Z jackdaniel: cdr fits
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2015-02-18T13:14:36Z didi: I didn't get it. Isn't the `eql' form missing an argument?
2015-02-18T13:14:53Z taylanub: indeed, but it's just missing the 'x' argument
2015-02-18T13:14:57Z jackdaniel: s/(eql (car datmus))/(eql (car datums) x)/
2015-02-18T13:15:12Z jackdaniel: my bad
2015-02-18T13:15:36Z didi: oic
2015-02-18T13:15:40Z didi: Thanks.
2015-02-18T13:15:42Z jackdaniel: :-
2015-02-18T13:15:45Z jackdaniel: :-) *
2015-02-18T13:15:47Z didi: And maybe `cadr'?
2015-02-18T13:16:09Z didi: Well, I am little confused about it.
2015-02-18T13:16:26Z jackdaniel: nah, every takes list, not atom as second argument
2015-02-18T13:16:35Z jackdaniel: cdr assures, that car won't be compared against itself
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2015-02-18T13:16:57Z jackdaniel: since we encolse it in lambda anyways
2015-02-18T13:17:34Z taylanub: didi: '(every (lambda (x) (eql (car datums) x)) (cdr datums))' will compare the first (car) of datums to each element of the rest (cdr) of datums
2015-02-18T13:17:50Z jackdaniel: until it fails
2015-02-18T13:17:52Z didi: oic
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2015-02-18T13:18:04Z didi: Thanks.
2015-02-18T13:18:07Z taylanub: it's useful to just think of 'cdr' as 'rest'
2015-02-18T13:18:13Z jackdaniel: so it won't compare against all elements, if something in the middle won't match
2015-02-18T13:18:19Z taylanub: right
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2015-02-18T13:18:49Z nyef: Sometimes it's useful to use FIRST and REST instead of CAR and CDR.
2015-02-18T13:19:07Z Ralt: yeah, I like first/rest/second/third/etc.
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2015-02-18T13:19:11Z taylanub: oh, are they standard in CL?  that's neat.
2015-02-18T13:19:34Z jackdaniel: agreed. car / cdr fits best for trees
2015-02-18T13:19:36Z Ralt: I believe it goes up to tenth?
2015-02-18T13:19:51Z jackdaniel: Ralt: yes
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2015-02-18T13:25:38Z dim: (every (lambda (x) (eql (first datums) x)) (rest datums))
2015-02-18T13:25:52Z dim: car and cdr are for talking about cons celles, first and rest about lists
2015-02-18T13:26:04Z dim: it's not always true but it's a good guideline I think
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2015-02-18T13:29:00Z moore33: Unless you've known that cdr == rest for your entire adult life :)
2015-02-18T13:30:14Z dim: well you write code that is easy for *others* to read, right?
2015-02-18T13:30:21Z nyef: Of course, you now have the opportunity to know it for the cdr of your life.
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2015-02-18T13:30:31Z moore33: There ya go.
2015-02-18T13:31:09Z moore33: dim: I do try, but I will continue to write "cdr" all the same.
2015-02-18T13:31:13Z jackdaniel: and the icecreams! /pun on holy wars/
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2015-02-18T13:40:34Z Shinmera: Hm. Compiling a file with around 16'400 forms is taking a while.
2015-02-18T13:40:45Z Shinmera: Who would've thought.
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2015-02-18T13:42:31Z Shinmera: And in return I get a 65mb FASL. Nice.
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2015-02-18T13:59:37Z dim: Shinmera: it's said that CCL is way faster a compiler than SBCL, time to test? ;-)
2015-02-18T14:00:06Z Shinmera: Maybe I will. Though I don't know if anyone will even use this craziness of mine anyway.
2015-02-18T14:00:38Z Shinmera: (I'm generating caller functions for all methods and enums in Qt.)
2015-02-18T14:00:59Z dim: nice
2015-02-18T14:01:06Z dim: well build it and they will come, they said
2015-02-18T14:01:52Z dim: IOW it's a chicken and egg problem, if you want more people to use Qt from CL the API has to reach a minimum level first, and it seems you're doing the grunt work for that
2015-02-18T14:01:53Z Shinmera: If I load all contribs except one I get a 5.4mb file with about 16'400 forms in it. I don't expect anyone to ever use all contribs, but you never know.
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2015-02-18T14:02:12Z dim: well you could make it optional at build time?
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2015-02-18T14:02:51Z Shinmera: It's a bit difficult. I need to have the contribs loaded to compile the forms, so I need some way for the user to potentially customise that.
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2015-02-18T14:03:19Z Shinmera: I definitely won't include this in standard Qtools and instead add an extra system, but I'll have to think about how to make this convenient.
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2015-02-18T14:04:46Z Shinmera: I also haven't figured out a solution around the deal with custom operators and setters.
2015-02-18T14:05:00Z Shinmera: Custom operators meaning overridden +-*/
2015-02-18T14:05:48Z rjmacready: shinmera: it would be interesting to know, but i think its not possible with CL's + - * /
2015-02-18T14:06:01Z dim: provide a generic function for those operators in your package?
2015-02-18T14:06:13Z Shinmera: CL:+ etc are not extensible, but I don't want to mix them and the Qt operators anyway.
2015-02-18T14:06:18Z dim: you don't have to use cl::+ qtools::+ is fine to
2015-02-18T14:06:27Z dim: too
2015-02-18T14:06:30Z rjmacready: the workaround is to use CLOS, define a generic method 'add', you get the deal
2015-02-18T14:06:30Z Shinmera: That's my plan interface wise, yes.
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2015-02-18T14:18:56Z moore33: Shinmera: Are you doing this by automated parsing of the c++ headers?
2015-02-18T14:19:48Z Shinmera: Indirectly. I'm using CommonQt's introspection functions, which are based on what SmokeQt provides, and smoke parses headers to generate wrapper functions.
2015-02-18T14:21:12Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/generate.lisp
2015-02-18T14:21:53Z eudoxia: Shinmera: are you trying to generate bindings that don't need the Smoke libraries?
2015-02-18T14:22:00Z Shinmera: No.
2015-02-18T14:22:02Z eudoxia: aw
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2015-02-18T14:22:13Z moore33: Ok, so not a general C++ parser.
2015-02-18T14:22:13Z Shinmera: I'll leave that up to stassats.
2015-02-18T14:22:43Z Shinmera: My job is just making it possible to use Qt in a more lisp-like manner.
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2015-02-18T14:36:24Z dim: hehe, someone just used pgloader to move 1TB of data from MySQL to PostgreSQL, it just ran unattended for 48h, at 6MBps average if my math is right (floor (* 1024 1024) (* 48 60 60))
2015-02-18T14:36:44Z dim: thanks CL for allowing that kind of processing ;-)
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2015-02-18T14:38:42Z dim: (I'm not talking about computing average MBps here)
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2015-02-18T14:43:35Z Shinmera: dim: And no conversion errors?
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2015-02-18T14:45:59Z dim: well I wasn't there, that's the beauty of it ;-)
2015-02-18T14:46:16Z dim: see https://twitter.com/commafeed/status/568055592704716800
2015-02-18T14:48:25Z Shinmera: Well, impressive either way!
2015-02-18T14:48:57Z Shinmera: I wonder what the bottleneck for the 6MBps is and if it could be higher with better disks.
2015-02-18T14:50:36Z nyef: I would be happy to get 6MBps from here to PostgreSQL. I'm fairly sure that that's a double-digit multiple of my uplink speed.
2015-02-18T14:51:01Z moore33: How long does it take to simply read and write 1TB from/to disk these days?
2015-02-18T14:51:37Z moore33: Or what transfer rate can one expect?
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2015-02-18T14:52:30Z Shinmera: My new 512gb SSD is apparently getting ~500MBps sequential r/w
2015-02-18T14:54:01Z Shinmera: But I'm quite sure there's faster still, especially if you use PCI-Express SSDs.
2015-02-18T14:54:39Z H4ns: dim: ok, you'll need to be ten times faster :)
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2015-02-18T14:55:31Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: 512GB? Do you put everything there?
2015-02-18T14:55:58Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Not quite everything. I have a HD for my downloads.
2015-02-18T14:56:05Z Shinmera: But everything else, yes.
2015-02-18T14:56:35Z Shinmera: (It's a Crucial M550, for those who want to know)
2015-02-18T14:56:46Z H4ns: why would one _not_ put everything on an SSD, anyway?
2015-02-18T14:56:56Z hitecnologys: Well, it's quite expensive.
2015-02-18T14:56:57Z H4ns: is there a reason other than cost?
2015-02-18T14:57:11Z H4ns: ah well.  we're lisp programmers, we know the cost of nothing :D
2015-02-18T14:57:16Z hitecnologys: No. None of that I know.
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2015-02-18T14:58:15Z Shinmera: On the other hand, if you know that you don't really need fast r/w there's no reason to not buy a cheaper HD.
2015-02-18T14:58:17Z hitecnologys: SSD's are better in a way that it's easier to predict when they die since they don't have moving parts and can only die when either controller or memory cells die.
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2015-02-18T14:59:13Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: one can have small SSD for caching and big HD for all the data.
2015-02-18T14:59:32Z hitecnologys: But these stuff is all off topic so I guess I should stop now.
2015-02-18T15:01:12Z jackdaniel has os and swap for hybrid-sleep on ssd (40G), while rest on hd
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2015-02-18T15:11:35Z francogrex: I am trying to parse/read text from a pdf file; using cl-pdf I thought may be the way to do it but I have not found a way to convert pdf to text. Has anyone used it before or another way to search for text strings within a pdf document?
2015-02-18T15:12:36Z rjmacready: francogrex: i think cl-pdf is only to generate pdfs
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2015-02-18T15:13:23Z rjmacready: francogrex: i wanted to make a pdf search engine and i ended up using lucene (java land, yuck) with scala
2015-02-18T15:13:25Z jackdaniel: francogrex: pdfgrep
2015-02-18T15:13:39Z jackdaniel: not-cl tho
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2015-02-18T15:14:31Z francogrex: rjmacready: there is a cl-pdf-parser.asd within cl-pdf but hell with no documentation
2015-02-18T15:15:07Z francogrex: jackdaniel: if nothing in lisp I will have to resort to pdfgrep and others...
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2015-02-18T15:33:38Z rjmacready: francogrex: we should have our own pdf-parser ... do you mind if i ask what's your goal/project?
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2015-02-18T16:13:15Z Guest83409: hey geys
2015-02-18T16:13:20Z Guest83409: im new to lisp
2015-02-18T16:13:29Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-02-18T16:13:30Z dlowe: Hi, Guest83409
2015-02-18T16:13:36Z Guest83409: can any one advise me about the starting
2015-02-18T16:14:00Z Guest83409: i know some programming
2015-02-18T16:14:09Z Guest83409: its not my first
2015-02-18T16:14:24Z jackdaniel: Guest83409: practical common lisp (available online for free)
2015-02-18T16:14:40Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2015-02-18T16:14:49Z jackdaniel: i personally prefer ansi common lisp (by paul graham), but it's matter of taste i think (and the latter isn't available for free)
2015-02-18T16:15:08Z Guest83409: i need some thing beside my collage
2015-02-18T16:15:38Z Guest83409: what about land of lisp
2015-02-18T16:15:39Z Guest83409: ?
2015-02-18T16:16:18Z jackdaniel: never read it
2015-02-18T16:16:23Z jackdaniel never read it
2015-02-18T16:16:29Z eudoxia: ansi cl is a good book
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2015-02-18T16:16:37Z Guest83409: hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
2015-02-18T16:16:39Z eudoxia: some of the examples are a bit dated but it's pretty good
2015-02-18T16:17:00Z Guest83409: my lechtuerer gonna work from it
2015-02-18T16:17:02Z Xach: ANSI Common Lisp barely covers packages and CLOS. It also uses names like "LST" where "LIST" is more typical.
2015-02-18T16:17:05Z moore33: land of lisp has nice drawings
2015-02-18T16:17:37Z rjmacready: land of lisp is very cool!
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2015-02-18T16:18:11Z Guest83409:  aha
2015-02-18T16:18:18Z Guest83409: what about the aditor
2015-02-18T16:18:28Z moore33: emacs all the way
2015-02-18T16:18:31Z jackdaniel: emacs + slime
2015-02-18T16:18:38Z Ralt: practical common lisp is what you want if you have programming experience
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2015-02-18T16:18:40Z Guest83409: notepad is good or there is something better
2015-02-18T16:18:52Z Xach: notepad is not supportive.
2015-02-18T16:19:03Z H4ns: notepad is not suitable
2015-02-18T16:19:08Z jackdaniel: notepad is not
2015-02-18T16:19:15Z Ralt: notepad is
2015-02-18T16:19:23Z H4ns: Guest83409: you need an editor that indents and does the parenthesis matching for you.
2015-02-18T16:19:25Z Guest83409: ok geys i got it notepad sucks
2015-02-18T16:19:32Z dlowe: notepad++ is decent on windows
2015-02-18T16:19:37Z Guest83409: yup
2015-02-18T16:19:43Z dlowe: if you want integration goodies, you'll probably want emacs
2015-02-18T16:19:54Z rjmacready: notepad is bonkers
2015-02-18T16:20:11Z rjmacready: oh too late
2015-02-18T16:20:40Z Guest83409: did u mean by slime sublime or something else
2015-02-18T16:20:54Z dlowe: slime is a lisp interaction mode for emacs
2015-02-18T16:21:08Z Guest83409: ok i got it
2015-02-18T16:21:27Z Guest83409: any thing alse i should now by now
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2015-02-18T16:21:56Z jackdaniel: Guest83409: cliki.net
2015-02-18T16:22:01Z dlowe: you can get easy access to libraries using quicklisp
2015-02-18T16:22:26Z jackdaniel: http://cliki.net/Getting%20Started <-
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2015-02-18T16:22:57Z Guest83409: im surfing cliki now
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2015-02-18T16:23:15Z Guest83409: it sent me here
2015-02-18T16:23:16Z Guest83409: :D
2015-02-18T16:23:37Z jackdaniel: and this is *recursion*
2015-02-18T16:23:38Z jackdaniel: ;)
2015-02-18T16:23:54Z Guest83409: hhhhhhhh yup
2015-02-18T16:24:38Z Guest83409: thanksssss geys for yuor help
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2015-02-18T16:42:46Z Shinmera: Hmm. I need to find a symbol for the C++ operators |, ||, and |=, but I  can't use / or \. Any ideas?
2015-02-18T16:42:54Z Shinmera: As in, a CL symbol.
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2015-02-18T16:44:37Z dlowe: you mean like bitior, logior, and setbitior?
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2015-02-18T16:45:06Z Shinmera: I suppose, though I was intending on literally translating the rest of the operators, so I'm not sure about using names for only some of them.
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2015-02-18T16:46:33Z dlowe: trigraphs!
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2015-02-18T16:48:05Z ogamita: Shinmera: \| \|\| \|= are how you write symbols named "|" "||" and "|=".
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2015-02-18T16:48:20Z Shinmera: ogamita: I know. I want to avoid having the user escape symbol names.
2015-02-18T16:48:22Z ogamita: Shinmera: if you're not happy with that, then modify your read-time or don't use CL.
2015-02-18T16:48:34Z ogamita: s/read-time/read-table/
2015-02-18T16:48:36Z Shinmera: I'll choose neither and instead resort to other names.
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2015-02-18T16:49:00Z ogamita: Of course, it's also a wise choice to use bit-or or and orf
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2015-02-18T16:49:05Z taylanub: is logior || in CL?
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2015-02-18T16:49:17Z ogamita: logior is |
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2015-02-18T16:49:24Z taylanub: and bitior?
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2015-02-18T16:49:42Z ogamita: well, C doesn't have bit vectors…
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2015-02-18T16:50:17Z taylanub: oh, so logior is bitwise-or on numbers, bitior is bitwise-or on bitvectors?
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2015-02-18T16:51:15Z taylanub: well that was googleable
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2015-02-18T16:53:34Z ogamita: Shinmera: the point is that if you have users type | |= etc, then you probably don't make them go thru the lisp reader: you will have your own parser, and then there won't be any problem in using symbols by those names.
2015-02-18T16:54:00Z Shinmera: But I don't want to have my users type | or |=.
2015-02-18T16:54:24Z ogamita: Ok, so there.
2015-02-18T16:54:31Z Shinmera: You're missing my premise. I'm writing wrapper functions that call the C++ operators.
2015-02-18T16:54:51Z Shinmera: A custom reader is unacceptable, and escaping is as well.
2015-02-18T16:54:56Z ogamita: Yes, asking questions without premises, can only stray you away.
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2015-02-18T16:55:29Z ogamita: Hence bitior, or and orf, and a nice little table to map them to C++ tokens.
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2015-02-18T16:57:22Z Shinmera: I'm probably going to map as many of them as I can to their CL equivalent function names, so lognot/logior/logxor/etc.
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2015-02-18T16:58:11Z dlowe: HashMap<a,b>operator[](a) to gethash :)
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2015-02-18T17:38:39Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-02-18T17:40:30Z moore33: hey
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2015-02-18T17:42:21Z akkad: re
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2015-02-18T17:45:40Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-02-18T17:46:01Z Grue`: postmodern uses keyword :|| for SQL operator ||. It's actually a symbol with empty name, but it works; and :\|\| works too
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2015-02-18T18:08:09Z jasom: If I have a function that I want to call from a macro, how do I ensure that asdf loads the file it's in before it compiles the file with the macro?
2015-02-18T18:08:34Z oGMo: tell it to?
2015-02-18T18:08:54Z jasom: oGMo: I have :serial t and it appears earlier in the .asd
2015-02-18T18:08:58Z oGMo: if you use :serial t, then specify it before, or use the individual file dependencies otherwise
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2015-02-18T18:09:35Z jasom: and it definitely compiled the function (I see ;compiling (DEFUN ...))
2015-02-18T18:09:38Z oGMo: jasom: so either you're modifying the wrong .asd, you're referring to the wrong file, or similar
2015-02-18T18:09:54Z oGMo: or you don't have an issue at all?
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2015-02-18T18:11:28Z jasom: Or I refactored the code into a different file and forgot to put in-package at the top
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2015-02-18T18:36:12Z dlowe: jasom: you can arrange to compile the file first, or you can use EVAL-WHEN
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2015-02-18T18:57:23Z drmeister: nyef: I just ran the first Cleavir-Clasp generated code.
2015-02-18T18:57:37Z drmeister: Oh - and it worked.
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2015-02-18T19:41:41Z dim: H4ns: my rough guess is that 10 times faster is in the realm of doable, but not by me yet; so I welcome any advice on how to get there, even in the form of code contributions ;-)
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2015-02-18T21:00:56Z drmeister: In SLIME when I use (progn (require :asdf) (asdf:load-system :FOO)) it errors out because the reader doesn't know about the "ASDF" package when it parses the form.  How do I get around this?
2015-02-18T21:01:09Z Bicyclidine: eval-when
2015-02-18T21:01:26Z Bicyclidine: or, ugh, (progn (require :asdf) (funcall (intern "LOAD-SYSTEM" (find-package "ASDF")) :foo))
2015-02-18T21:01:38Z Bicyclidine: er, find-symbol, not intern
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2015-02-18T21:01:58Z drmeister: Good suggestion - looks nasty.
2015-02-18T21:02:00Z flip214: drmeister: how about (ql:quickload :foo) ;?
2015-02-18T21:02:31Z drmeister: ql:quickload - eh?
2015-02-18T21:02:41Z Bicyclidine: you need asdf for ql anyway
2015-02-18T21:02:58Z drmeister: Yeah - and I'd have to require :quickload or something.
2015-02-18T21:03:00Z dim: when reading a binary file that contains strings in a particular encoding, is it possible in CL to have the octets read as string under as specific external format? (say, cp437 or something)
2015-02-18T21:03:18Z Bicyclidine: i think babel does that?
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2015-02-18T21:03:45Z flip214: drmeister: yeah, but ql would take care about asdf for you.
2015-02-18T21:04:25Z Bicyclidine: not really, you'd still have to load ql itself, so, same problem
2015-02-18T21:04:28Z dim: babel doesn't know about cp437 or cp850 apparently, where SBCL knows about 'em
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2015-02-18T21:05:12Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: eval-when would be (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require :asdf)) (asdf:load-system :foo)
2015-02-18T21:05:33Z flip214: Bicyclidine: I load QL via my .sbclrc, so early enough ;)
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2015-02-18T21:06:14Z Bicyclidine: okay, but drmeister asked about doing something in one file, and probably in his implementation
2015-02-18T21:07:10Z flip214: Bicyclidine: I would expect that running ql is a strong requirement in *any* CL implementation nowadays anyway. but yes, the funcall line might be easiest.
2015-02-18T21:07:23Z Xach: not really
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2015-02-18T21:10:01Z drmeister: flip214: It is but my Common Lisp implementation doesn't load ASDF or quicklisp fast enough for me to load it every time.   I'm working on speeding it up now.
2015-02-18T21:10:12Z dim: (sb-ext:octets-to-string octets :external-format :cp437)
2015-02-18T21:10:22Z dim: that just work of course, but isn't very portable to boot
2015-02-18T21:10:30Z dim: I only need CCL compat' that said
2015-02-18T21:10:43Z drmeister: Speaking of which... Checkout my new MIR!  Now with cyan octagons for pointers to Closures!  (cleavir-compile 't2 '(lambda (x) (* x 2)))
2015-02-18T21:11:21Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/e8OgyXm
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2015-02-18T21:13:22Z drmeister: If your MIR doesn't have cyan octagons it's sh*t.
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2015-02-18T21:14:30Z dim: (ccl:decode-string-from-octets octets :external-format :cp936)
2015-02-18T21:14:42Z dim: well no cp437 available in ccl, but the function exists, ok
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2015-02-18T21:47:15Z dim: anyway, Xach, I don't know if you're still interested into your dbf reader, but you might enjoy seeing it put to good use and update to modern encodings support in https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/8f4eb73cadaaeb7b96f14493fc5059c2171e24eb (use case in https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/175)
2015-02-18T21:47:40Z dim: sorry use case at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/176
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2015-02-18T21:48:46Z dim: oh damn, and the encoding support is at
2015-02-18T21:48:53Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/cl-db3/commit/770cbe35261f55dbdcbf3681b9d9dbaea6ea216d
2015-02-18T21:49:01Z dim: so maybe it's time for me to go to sleep actually ;-)
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2015-02-18T21:57:48Z Xach: cool
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2015-02-18T22:02:31Z dim: yeah, old hacks being still useful by virtue of being Open Source and published is always quite cool ;-)
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2015-02-18T22:04:37Z Odin-: I missed what that was about, but dim's description makes me curious. :(
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2015-02-18T22:06:02Z dim: DB3 is the infamous dBase format, pgloader allows you to load that in a PostgreSQL database, and know more encodings than just ASCII are supported when doing so
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