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2015-02-10T01:33:46Z akkad: is there anything like cl-store/sqlite that can be used to write a large amount of records concurrently?
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2015-02-10T01:35:54Z protist: how do you make tooltips in ltk?
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2015-02-10T01:47:48Z emaczen: With the loop macro, I wish to loop over a list: 'for ele in elements' then, create a new variable that changes at each iteration that depends on 'ele'. I've done this before with 'do' but how do I do this with loop?
2015-02-10T01:48:33Z emaczen: With the 'do' loop, this looks like: (do ((a (some-s-exp))
2015-02-10T01:48:53Z emaczen: (b (f a))
2015-02-10T01:49:04Z Xach: emaczen: (loop for ele in elements for b = (f ele) ...)
2015-02-10T01:49:59Z emaczen: Xach: Is there a way to do it without the extra for? I like to think of extra 'fors' as independent variables
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2015-02-10T01:54:22Z Xach: I don't know. One option is to stop liking to think that.
2015-02-10T01:54:37Z White_Flame: "The for and as keywords are synonyms; they can be used interchangeably."
2015-02-10T01:54:45Z White_Flame: "By convention, for introduces new iterations and as introduces iterations that depend on a previous iteration specification. "
2015-02-10T01:55:07Z White_Flame: so (loop for ele ... as b = ...) would seem to fit the convention
2015-02-10T01:55:17Z emaczen: White_Flame: I knew I wasn't being totally pedantic!
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2015-02-10T01:56:20Z White_Flame: it's still pedantic, just pendatry supported by the spec ;)
2015-02-10T01:56:54Z emaczen: White_Flame: lol!
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2015-02-10T01:59:32Z emaczen: So I am using an ABCL specific feature in a .asd file (maven integration), how can I tell SBCL to skip over this?
2015-02-10T01:59:55Z White_Flame: presumably #+abcl
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2015-02-10T02:06:51Z Xach: #+abcl is definitely a good way
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2015-02-10T02:12:16Z akkad: abcl is pretty nice, once it starts up
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2015-02-10T02:17:04Z mmathers: abcl support all the quicklisp packages now?
2015-02-10T02:17:59Z Xach: mmathers: no.
2015-02-10T02:18:04Z Xach: but it supports a lot.
2015-02-10T02:18:27Z akkad: I assume it caches stuff it builds out? like fasl equivalent?
2015-02-10T02:18:48Z Xach: What caches stuff?
2015-02-10T02:19:20Z akkad: when you compile packages on abcl. is there any sort of caching? or does every rerun require recompiling everything?
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2015-02-10T02:19:36Z akkad: I guess the right term is "saving images"?
2015-02-10T02:20:33Z Xach: it produces fasls like other implementations.
2015-02-10T02:21:25Z akkad: ahh. was thinking jars
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2015-02-10T02:21:34Z Xach: i think the fasls might be jar-like
2015-02-10T02:21:37Z Xach: if not exactly jars
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2015-02-10T02:21:54Z akkad: ahh ok.
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2015-02-10T02:25:41Z emaczen: how can I remove the last element of a string
2015-02-10T02:25:51Z emaczen: I tried 'butlast'
2015-02-10T02:26:46Z Xach: emaczen: it involves making a new string that is a little smaller than the original and copying everything into it. not all that efficient if you can avoid it. SUBSEQ is the easiest way to do it.
2015-02-10T02:27:21Z emaczen: I just copied over an old text file from a windows computer with the \r\n at the end of each line...
2015-02-10T02:27:26Z White_Flame: at least fetching the length is a constant-time operation
2015-02-10T02:27:49Z Xach: emaczen: oh, then string-right-trim is probably an easy way to trim things. though i often use emacs to convert that sort of thing.
2015-02-10T02:28:01Z White_Flame: there's also dos2unix on the commandline
2015-02-10T02:28:08Z Xach: yes, there are many options
2015-02-10T02:28:09Z emaczen: Xach: I am using emacs right now -- is there a command for that?
2015-02-10T02:28:26Z Xach: emaczen: does it say (DOS) in the mode line?
2015-02-10T02:28:54Z emaczen: Yep
2015-02-10T02:29:27Z Xach: M-x set-buffer-file-coding-system RET undecided-dos is what i've used
2015-02-10T02:29:33Z akkad: cat file|tr -d \015
2015-02-10T02:29:34Z Xach: orry, undecided-unix
2015-02-10T02:30:20Z emaczen: thanks guys!
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2015-02-10T02:46:06Z akkad: sed -i "s#\o15##g" file #strip ^M
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2015-02-10T02:48:05Z loke: Argh. String accesses are ridiculously faster on simple-string than on string's
2015-02-10T02:48:19Z loke: why, oh why, is simpel-string not the default
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2015-02-10T02:49:47Z White_Flame: default from what?
2015-02-10T02:50:38Z loke: I don't know what I suggest. All I would have wanted is that I wouldn't have to DECLARE variables as simple-string before accessing its content in order to avoid hairy-vector-aref
2015-02-10T02:51:00Z White_Flame: where are your strings coming from?
2015-02-10T02:51:16Z loke: Function arguments, usually.
2015-02-10T02:51:22Z White_Flame: sigh
2015-02-10T02:51:33Z White_Flame: how are the strings created that you're seeing?
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2015-02-10T02:52:06Z Bike: don't think that matters, if the access functions are trying to access all strings instead of just simple ones
2015-02-10T02:52:14Z White_Flame: at least on my SBCL, "abc", and (coerce '(#\a #\b #\c) 'string) are simple-strings
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2015-02-10T02:52:51Z White_Flame: as are subseqs of simple-strings
2015-02-10T02:52:57Z loke: White_Flame: That's irrelevant to what I'm saying. I know how to fix it, I just don't want to. My point is that CL's arrays (and by consequence, strings) are too flexible. If the compiler could assume all arrays were simple, the optimiser could generate mych better code without any declarations.
2015-02-10T02:53:44Z White_Flame: okay, it sounded like string objects were being created as non-simple
2015-02-10T02:53:48Z loke: I guess it all comes down to the existenace of displaced arrays
2015-02-10T02:53:56Z Bike: " always gives simple strings, so that's not the issue.
2015-02-10T02:54:14Z loke: No. My issue is that SBCL has to assume that strings could be non-simple, even if they in practice almost never are.
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2015-02-10T02:54:53Z White_Flame: you could shadow your own string operations which declare them as simple before handing off to the cl: variants
2015-02-10T02:55:03Z Bike: displaced arrays would be nice if they didn't mean bizarre levels of indirection
2015-02-10T02:55:09Z White_Flame: that would be the least syntactically invasive
2015-02-10T02:55:54Z loke: White_Flame: Yes. True. Although probably not worth it.
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2015-02-10T02:56:08Z loke: It's probably more clear to simply add declarations in the performance sensitive parts.
2015-02-10T02:56:50Z loke: At least now I understand why pkuhong was saying when he said that displaced arrays shouldn't have been included because they stop a lot of optimisation opportunities.
2015-02-10T02:57:29Z White_Flame: right, it's a fairly heavy space vs speed tradeoff
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2015-02-10T02:57:54Z loke: The only way to create displaced arrays is uing MAKE-ARRAY, right?
2015-02-10T02:59:34Z Bike: probably.
2015-02-10T03:00:17Z loke: I searched my QL directory. 388 references to :displaced-to in systems packages
2015-02-10T03:00:28Z loke: I searched my QL directory. 388 references to :displaced-to in 864 systems
2015-02-10T03:00:47Z loke: (obviously multimple versions of the same systems)
2015-02-10T03:01:06Z Bike: it's useful, but the way it's integrated leaves something to be desired
2015-02-10T03:01:09Z loke: But it gives a rough statistic of about 0.5 uses of displaced-to per system
2015-02-10T03:02:11Z loke: The main used of displaced arrays seems to be cl-mathstats
2015-02-10T03:02:16Z loke: (whatever that is)
2015-02-10T03:02:41Z Bike: i wonder, if you removed the array-displacement introspection, could they be as efficient as simple arrays
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2015-02-10T03:03:44Z loke: Then we have clevernesses like this, which is probably slower than just using the radix array without displacement:
2015-02-10T03:03:44Z loke: https://github.com/vseloved/cl-redis/blob/master/float.lisp#L11
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2015-02-10T03:04:34Z White_Flame: Bike:  Yeah, I see no reason displaced string support can't be as fast as normal strings for dereferencing chars
2015-02-10T03:04:49Z White_Flame: the biggest change would likely be the garbage collector, depending on how it's implemented
2015-02-10T03:05:05Z Bike: yeah, i have no idea how that would interact with gc exactly.
2015-02-10T03:05:37Z loke: White_Flame: for simple displacement, perhaps, but the problem is that you can do dimensional displacement as well. I.e. displace a two-dimensional array into a 3D one with completely different rakns
2015-02-10T03:05:39Z White_Flame: I'd put an extra field on the string pointing to the full string it's displacing intttttttto
2015-02-10T03:05:39Z loke: ranks
2015-02-10T03:05:44Z jusss: the return values are all capital letters, can I return lower case ?
2015-02-10T03:05:52Z White_Flame: loke: true
2015-02-10T03:06:09Z loke: jusss: Return values of what?
2015-02-10T03:06:44Z White_Flame: symbols default to uppercase.  If you want symbols to exist in lowercase, you can force it by doing '|foo| instead of 'foo
2015-02-10T03:06:58Z jusss: loke: like princ
2015-02-10T03:06:59Z White_Flame: or telling the reader to use different casinnnnnnnnnnng rules
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2015-02-10T03:07:10Z Bike: is something wrong with your keyboard
2015-02-10T03:07:27Z White_Flame: yeah, sorry, it's VNC being laggy with keydown/keyup
2015-02-10T03:07:28Z loke: jusss: What are you printing. If you print a symbol in upper case, it will be printed in upper case. If you print a symbol in lower case, likewise it will be printed in lower case.
2015-02-10T03:07:46Z Bike: i think some fortran things use displaced arrays with different dimensions and presumably do it reasonably fast
2015-02-10T03:07:51Z loke: jusss: Thus, if you want it to print something lower case, you have to pass in a lower-case value
2015-02-10T03:08:15Z loke: Bike: yes, but they can do it compile-time because it's all statically typed.
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2015-02-10T03:08:37Z loke: Bike: Lisp can (and does) the same, but you also have to statically type everything. Hence, the DECALRE
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2015-02-10T03:09:31Z Bike: oh. wellthen.
2015-02-10T03:09:34Z jusss: loke: (princ 'hi) I
2015-02-10T03:09:45Z jusss: I'd like to get lower case
2015-02-10T03:09:59Z White_Flame: 'hi reads as an upper-cased symbol.  '|hi| performs no case conversion
2015-02-10T03:10:12Z White_Flame: though you likely want strings if you care about case, not symbols
2015-02-10T03:10:14Z loke: jusss: The upper casing happens when your inpit is read, not when it's printed
2015-02-10T03:11:03Z White_Flame: (princ "Hi!")
2015-02-10T03:14:17Z jusss: can I shut it down that upper casing as read ?
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2015-02-10T03:14:53Z White_Flame: jusss: yes, but you really shouldn't
2015-02-10T03:15:06Z White_Flame: libraries might rely on that
2015-02-10T03:15:37Z White_Flame: also, it's a good indicator on output that what you're viewing is internal symbols, not human-friendly text strings
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2015-02-10T03:16:46Z jusss: I see, thanks
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2015-02-10T03:30:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-02-10T03:30:25Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: using the stack, is like copying the list to a vector, and furthermore, within the size of (some) cache.  Therefore you are definitely benefiting, if transitorily, from the cache.  Considering cdr-coding (both for the paper and in an implementation) for bigger list would not invalidate the reasoning, only reframing it.
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2015-02-10T03:50:14Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2015-02-10T03:54:02Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-02-10T03:54:18Z drmeister: How are the load-time-value AST/HIR changes coming?
2015-02-10T03:54:59Z beach: drmeister: Very well, thank you.
2015-02-10T03:55:10Z beach: Now, the AST contains no constants.
2015-02-10T03:55:22Z drmeister: How long until it would be ready for me to use?
2015-02-10T03:55:28Z beach: Only LOAD-TIME-VALUE or (if you introduced them) immediates.
2015-02-10T03:55:37Z beach: I think you can use it already.
2015-02-10T03:55:58Z beach: There are a few things I must move to the AST level that are now at the HIR level.
2015-02-10T03:56:03Z beach: But you won't notice them.
2015-02-10T03:56:21Z beach: Only if you generate THE or TYPEQ ASTs.
2015-02-10T03:57:23Z jasom: Looking at CL webdec, I thought I'd try out reactJS for rendering, and hacked up a quick modification to parenscript and cl-who to allow generating jsx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145715#1
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2015-02-10T03:57:45Z jasom: any comments on the lisp side of the syntax?
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2015-02-10T03:59:43Z beach: drmeister: I need to either update HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS or tell you what to do instead.  I prefer the latter solution, because there will be no one-size-fits-all HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS.
2015-02-10T04:03:30Z beach: drmeister: Are you planning to write the file compiler or the in-core compiler first?
2015-02-10T04:05:10Z drmeister: beach: I'm pretty sure you mean COMPILE-FILE or COMPILE - correct?
2015-02-10T04:05:19Z beach: Yes.
2015-02-10T04:06:05Z drmeister: I was starting with COMPILE - but almost everything I do is applied to both
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2015-02-10T04:06:50Z beach: Do you want me to describe what I am doing, or do you just want me to give you the code?
2015-02-10T04:06:55Z drmeister: I'm reusing all of my constant/load-time-value code
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2015-02-10T04:09:07Z beach: What I do now is that I eliminate the LOAD-TIME-VALUEs at the AST level.
2015-02-10T04:09:25Z beach: It is a transformation called HOIST-LOAD-TIME-VALUE.
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2015-02-10T04:10:27Z beach: It transforms the AST into a function that takes the values of the LOAD-TIME-VALUE forms as arguments.  When you call that function, it has the effect of evaluating the original form.
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2015-02-10T04:10:58Z beach: When that AST is transformed to HIR, there are no LOAD-TIME-VALUEs in there, nor any constants.
2015-02-10T04:11:53Z beach: So when the escape analysis is done, at the HIR level, there are only hexagonal variables.  Nothing else.  No constants.  No load-time-values.
2015-02-10T04:12:07Z beach: That should be easy to generate code for.
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2015-02-10T04:14:16Z beach: drmeister: Did you faint?
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2015-02-10T04:14:37Z drmeister: Almost - watching TV with a friend - sorry.
2015-02-10T04:14:47Z beach: Oh.  We can do this some other time.
2015-02-10T04:14:59Z drmeister: Hang on - reading.
2015-02-10T04:16:41Z drmeister: I think I'll need to see the generated hir to figure it out
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2015-02-10T04:17:20Z drmeister: Does it generate HIR like this now?
2015-02-10T04:17:50Z beach: Only if you call HOIST-LOAD-TIME-VALUE on the AST first.
2015-02-10T04:18:20Z beach: 1. Generate the AST.  2. Call HOIST-LOAD-TIME-VALUE.
2015-02-10T04:18:41Z beach: 3. Generate HIR.
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2015-02-10T04:19:24Z beach: Now you have an initial instruction that is a special version of the ENTER instruction.  It also contains a list of forms to evaluate and pass to the function represented by the HIR.
2015-02-10T04:20:39Z beach: So to evaluate the original form, you do (apply fun (mapcar #'eval (forms instruction))).
2015-02-10T04:22:16Z beach: 4. call PROCESS-CAPTURED-VARIABLES.
2015-02-10T04:23:01Z beach: Now you have only variables with dynamic extent, so you can put them on the stack or in registers.
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2015-02-10T04:23:59Z drmeister: Ok
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2015-02-10T05:04:03Z loke: What is the most efficient way to check if a string contains any of a set of characters?
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2015-02-10T05:04:27Z loke: I.e. I want it to return true if the strng contains one of, say, x y z or a number.
2015-02-10T05:04:32Z H4ns: i'd try a regular expression first
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2015-02-10T05:05:19Z loke: H4ns: That's what I do, but in this case, is there a more efficient way? I'm asking because this is one of the most certral parts of the application and every string that is processed in the system goes through this one.
2015-02-10T05:05:30Z loke: I just figured I'
2015-02-10T05:05:42Z H4ns: loke: are these only ascii characters?
2015-02-10T05:06:08Z loke: H4ns: the strings are unicode, but the filtering is only done on ascii chars (to be specific, control characters).
2015-02-10T05:06:18Z H4ns: loke: i'd hand-craft a function for the purpose, probably using a bit mask.
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2015-02-10T05:06:30Z loke: I need to actually throw an error if certain illegal control characters are received
2015-02-10T05:06:58Z H4ns: loke: if it is just control characters (< 32), then cl:case might be sufficiently optimized.
2015-02-10T05:07:12Z loke: H4ns: Yeah, I could. But that would take me into the territory of "premature optimisation" :-)
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2015-02-10T05:07:13Z beach: Make a vector of 32 booleans.
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2015-02-10T05:07:51Z beach: Traverse the string.  Check if char-code is < 32.  If so use the vector, if not return nil.
2015-02-10T05:09:18Z loke: beach: Yeah, I guess I'll do something like that (they're not all in one range though), but ti's good enough
2015-02-10T05:09:44Z beach: All control characters are between 0 and 31
2015-02-10T05:09:45Z H4ns: loke: if it is premature, don't optimize it.
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2015-02-10T05:17:47Z loke: beach: Well, also 7F to 9F.
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2015-02-10T05:18:09Z loke: But yeah, I think there were more, but those are the only ones, so filtering that out with two range checks was easy enough
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2015-02-10T05:19:22Z loke: s/think/thought/
2015-02-10T05:22:00Z loke: Related; supposedly JSON does not allow any control characters in its input. But both CL-JSON and ST-JSON both happily accepts it
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2015-02-10T05:33:17Z pillton: Quadrescence: The thing I was talking about the other day is coming along. http://paste.lisp.org/display/145716
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2015-02-10T05:44:06Z jasom: is there any way to get a list of local slots in a standard-object?
2015-02-10T05:44:58Z loke: jasom: Yes
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2015-02-10T05:45:12Z jasom: loke: care to share it?
2015-02-10T05:45:18Z loke: jasom: But you have to use the MOP. I recommend you load the package CLOSER-MOP which normalises that for multiple platforms
2015-02-10T05:45:23Z loke: jasom: sure
2015-02-10T05:45:26Z pillton: CLASS_DIRECT-SLOTS.
2015-02-10T05:46:01Z loke: (closer-mop:class-slots (find-class 'myclass))
2015-02-10T05:48:18Z pillton: mop class-slots
2015-02-10T05:48:18Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2015-02-10T05:48:22Z jasom: and then just class-of to get the class
2015-02-10T05:48:38Z loke: jasom: Well yes, if you have the instenace
2015-02-10T05:48:40Z loke: instance
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2015-02-10T05:50:04Z loke: jasom: If you want to look up the value of a slot using the slot definition, you might be interested in SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS
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2015-02-10T05:51:57Z H4ns: loke: cl:graphic-char-p might be optimized well
2015-02-10T05:54:17Z loke: H4ns: Ah, that's iunteresting
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2015-02-10T12:19:07Z love-and-peace: hi friends! little question on common-lisp: is there a way to make a integer as keyword?
2015-02-10T12:19:48Z |3b|: not sure what you mean, :123 ?
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2015-02-10T12:20:36Z love-and-peace: |3b|: right - i have a plist, which shall take strings and numbers as keywords
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2015-02-10T12:21:57Z jackdaniel: love-and-peace: (defun xxx (&key |123|) (print |123|)) ; you may use it as (xxx :123 4)
2015-02-10T12:22:21Z |3b|: (getf '(1 2 3 4) 1) -> 2
2015-02-10T12:22:55Z |3b|: strings are a bit harder though, you need to have the same string, not just one with the same contents... better to use symbols or a different data structure in that case
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2015-02-10T12:23:26Z love-and-peace: jackdaniel & |3b|: i will try both - thank you very much :)
2015-02-10T12:23:30Z Shinmera: (assoc "foo" '(("foo" . "a") (1 . "b")) :test #'equal)
2015-02-10T12:23:44Z Shinmera: Just use an alist, assoc allows a test so you can use both strings and numbers as keys.
2015-02-10T12:23:54Z |3b|: or a hash table
2015-02-10T12:24:20Z jackdaniel: or butterflies
2015-02-10T12:24:24Z jackdaniel: ;-)
2015-02-10T12:24:37Z love-and-peace: Shinmera: ah, okay, seems to fit better - there could be better structures... xD thanks all for the hints
2015-02-10T12:25:00Z Shinmera: That getf doesn't have a :test argument has bothered me a few times.
2015-02-10T12:25:18Z ebrasca: how it (loop for (n v uv c) ... work?
2015-02-10T12:25:28Z Shinmera: Magic
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2015-02-10T12:26:26Z ebrasca: i know how work (loop for n ...
2015-02-10T12:26:36Z Shinmera: Do you know about destructuring-bind?
2015-02-10T12:26:51Z ebrasca: I,don't
2015-02-10T12:27:01Z Shinmera: clhs destructuring-bind
2015-02-10T12:27:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm
2015-02-10T12:27:09Z |3b|: it works the same way, but assumes the value is a list and assigns the first 4 values to N,V,UV,C (or NIL if there are fewer than 4 values in the list)
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2015-02-10T12:27:29Z |3b|: it is similar to destructuring-bind, but not exactly the same
2015-02-10T12:27:39Z Shinmera: Sadly not quite the same.
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2015-02-10T12:28:23Z |3b|: actually, i guess mostly different aside from the basic idea :p
2015-02-10T12:28:39Z Shinmera: Yeah, for some reason I always think of it as a destructuring-bind
2015-02-10T12:28:51Z Shinmera: My bad.
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2015-02-10T12:30:30Z Shinmera: ebrasca: Basically try: (loop for (a b) in '((1 2) (x y)) do (format T "~a and ~a" a b))
2015-02-10T12:30:36Z Shinmera: should be rather apparent what it does from that.
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2015-02-10T12:31:33Z ebrasca: Shinmera: thx
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2015-02-10T12:32:22Z ebrasca: thx all
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2015-02-10T12:34:22Z Shinmera: Note that since it takes a list you can also use it to take apart alists and other constructs: (loop for (key . val) in '((a . 0) (b 1 2 3)) do (format T "Key: ~a Val: ~a~% key val))
2015-02-10T12:34:44Z Shinmera: *(format T "Key: ~a Val: ~a~%" key val)
2015-02-10T12:36:33Z ehu: ebrasca: using numbers in keyword positions (without making them true keywords) is not necessarily going to work: numbers in CL are guaranteed to be EQL, while symbols are guaranteed to be EQ.
2015-02-10T12:36:49Z Shinmera: numbers are guaranteed EQL
2015-02-10T12:36:55Z Shinmera: they are not guaranteed EQ.
2015-02-10T12:37:04Z ehu: Shinmera: riht.
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2015-02-10T12:37:06Z ehu: right.
2015-02-10T12:37:10Z ehu: that's what I said?
2015-02-10T12:37:19Z Shinmera: Oh, I misread.
2015-02-10T12:37:19Z ehu: ah.
2015-02-10T12:37:26Z ehu: I didn't *exactly* say that.
2015-02-10T12:37:43Z ehu: I didn't say that they are *not* *guaranteed* to be EQ
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2015-02-10T12:39:24Z Shinmera: On some implementations EQ can trip you over pretty badly with numbers. (eg abcl: (eq 700 700) => NIL)
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2015-02-10T12:41:24Z |3b|: can on any implementation, they are free to assume you verified it wasn't a number
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2015-02-10T12:41:55Z |3b|: or to just skip checking if it knows one or more args are numbers
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2015-02-10T12:44:12Z Grue`: is there any implementation where (let ((x 12345)) (eq x x)) is false (for some integer)?
2015-02-10T12:44:42Z Shinmera: can't be because it denotes the same object
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2015-02-10T12:44:52Z ehu: Shinmera: on abcl: (eq 10 10) --> T
2015-02-10T12:44:53Z |3b|: doesn't just depend on the integer, could depend on compilation setting as well
2015-02-10T12:44:56Z Grue`: it's allowed to be false in the spec
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2015-02-10T12:45:05Z Shinmera: ehu: Yes, some numbers are cached. Try higher ones.
2015-02-10T12:45:14Z |3b|: could depend on other code in the function
2015-02-10T12:45:18Z Shinmera: Grue`: Oh, really? Huh.
2015-02-10T12:47:19Z Shinmera: "An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time. The effect is that Common Lisp makes no guarantee that eq is true even when both its arguments are ``the same thing'' if that thing is a character or number."
2015-02-10T12:47:21Z Shinmera: interesting.
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2015-02-10T14:34:51Z ebrasca: |3b|: thx now i understand vbo/vao
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2015-02-10T16:01:48Z xyh: how to disable compiler warnings (CCL) ?
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2015-02-10T16:53:32Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-02-10T16:53:40Z beach: drmeister: I just sent you email.
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2015-02-10T16:55:58Z beach: drmeister: In Cleavir/Intermediate-representation/HIR/general-purpose-instructions.lisp there should be a class named top-level-enter-instruction, with enter-instruction as its superclass.  If that is not the case, something is wrong.
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2015-02-10T17:30:26Z drmeister: Hey beach: I saw your email.
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2015-02-10T17:31:02Z beach: Good! :)
2015-02-10T17:31:28Z drmeister: I'm just checking the code for the top-level-enter-instruction class
2015-02-10T17:32:28Z drmeister: Hmm, it's there - maybe I need to restart slime and reload everything - hang on.
2015-02-10T17:32:48Z beach: It could be a dependency problem.
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2015-02-10T17:33:17Z drmeister: On my end or your end?
2015-02-10T17:33:22Z beach: Both.
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2015-02-10T17:33:49Z beach: I may have forgotten to make a system depend on all the other systems it ought to depend on.
2015-02-10T17:34:44Z drmeister: I restarted everything and I still see the error
2015-02-10T17:35:39Z beach: What signals the error?
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2015-02-10T17:37:15Z drmeister: The last function that I see is COMPILE-AST
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2015-02-10T17:37:35Z drmeister: Then CHANGE-CLASS and FIND-CLASS --> fail
2015-02-10T17:37:48Z beach: Is this during compilation or execution?
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2015-02-10T17:38:40Z drmeister: I'm going to say execution - my compiler doesn't care
2015-02-10T17:39:04Z beach: OK hold on...
2015-02-10T17:39:25Z drmeister: I'm doing some checks myself.
2015-02-10T17:40:01Z drmeister: (apropos "top-level")  doesn't generate anything - so it hasn't been compiled.   I can try wiping out the asdf cache.
2015-02-10T17:40:32Z drmeister: No - wait - hang on.
2015-02-10T17:40:49Z drmeister: I was looking in the wrong frame
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2015-02-10T17:41:32Z beach: There was a missing package prefix on that class.
2015-02-10T17:41:46Z beach: I haven't executed that code myself yet, so I haven't seen it yet.
2015-02-10T17:41:54Z beach: I put in the package prefix, but I haven't tested it.
2015-02-10T17:42:00Z drmeister: (find-class 'cleavir-ir:top-level-enter-instruction) --> #<COMMON-LISP:STANDARD-CLASS CLEAVIR-IR:TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION 0x10db804c8>
2015-02-10T17:42:12Z drmeister: That should do it.
2015-02-10T17:42:35Z drmeister: Why does it work for you?  Are you using packages that I am not?
2015-02-10T17:43:33Z beach: Read what I wrote! :)
2015-02-10T17:43:39Z beach: I haven't executed that code myself yet.
2015-02-10T17:44:37Z drmeister: Ah, I thought you meant that you haven't executed the code with the package prefix added.
2015-02-10T17:45:15Z drmeister feels like a guinea pig
2015-02-10T17:45:20Z beach: No, I meant, you are further along than I am. :)
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2015-02-10T17:45:42Z drmeister: Now it gets further:   The slot CLEAVIR-IR::%LAMBDA-LIST in the object a CLEAVIR-IR:TOP-LEVEL-ENTER-INSTRUCTION#<0x1118b6478> is unbound.
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2015-02-10T17:46:45Z beach: Hmm.  CHANGE-CLASS preserves existing slots, right?
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2015-02-10T17:47:06Z beach: Let me check something else...
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2015-02-10T17:51:25Z jackdaniel: _death: this bug happens only, when you compile function, and it's present on 13.5.1 on x86 as well
2015-02-10T17:52:14Z jackdaniel: _death: function defined in repl works fine
2015-02-10T17:52:18Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, I see the problem.
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2015-02-10T17:54:13Z beach: drmeister: I need more time to fix that.  And now I must go fix dinner, too.
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2015-02-10T17:55:06Z drmeister: No problem - I'm going for a swim.  Send me an email when you get it fixed today or tomorrow.
2015-02-10T17:55:07Z beach: Hopefully, after I have had dinner, social life, and sleep, I should be able to get to a point where I am able to execute all that code myself, so you don't have to feel like a guinea pig.
2015-02-10T17:55:40Z beach: OK, have a nice swim.
2015-02-10T17:55:55Z drmeister: Don't worry about the guinea pig thing.  I'm anxious to see what these changes look like.
2015-02-10T17:55:58Z drmeister: One quick question
2015-02-10T17:56:06Z beach: Sure.
2015-02-10T17:56:20Z drmeister: How does the maximum number of arguments to a function impact your new approach?
2015-02-10T17:56:36Z jackdaniel: when I C-c C-c code in slime, what exactly happens?
2015-02-10T17:56:36Z drmeister: Or does it?
2015-02-10T17:56:42Z beach: Good question.  I thought about it, but decided not to care for the time being.
2015-02-10T17:56:53Z beach: Sorry, got to go.
2015-02-10T17:57:29Z drmeister: jackdaniel: It writes the code to a temporary file and compiles that temporary file spoofing the compiler into thinking that it is compiling part of a larger, different source file.
2015-02-10T17:57:53Z jackdaniel: drmeister: thanks
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2015-02-10T17:59:52Z xyh: is there a function like INTEGER->STRING ?
2015-02-10T18:00:10Z xyh: 123 -> "123"
2015-02-10T18:00:19Z drmeister: (format nil "~a" 123)
2015-02-10T18:00:22Z jackdaniel: xyh: (format nil "~a" your-integer)
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2015-02-10T18:00:43Z jackdaniel: oh
2015-02-10T18:01:38Z xyh: sorry ... I forget FORMAT (again)
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2015-02-10T18:02:07Z Bicyclidine: or write-to-string.
2015-02-10T18:02:33Z jackdaniel: drmeister: so there should be no difference when i just (compile-file #P"/path/to/function/definition.lisp") ?
2015-02-10T18:02:59Z jackdaniel: if file contains only this function of course
2015-02-10T18:04:41Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I think you are correct.    Check out slime/swank/clasp.lisp   function:  swank-compile-string
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2015-02-10T18:06:50Z jackdaniel: hmm, my slime doesn't have it (2.12), but this directory is nice hint
2015-02-10T18:07:09Z jackdaniel: i encountered weird bug in ecl, which happens *only* when C-c C-c from another buffer
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2015-02-10T18:37:10Z drmeister: It's only in the latest slime versions
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2015-02-10T18:41:34Z jackdaniel: ecl generates bad fas for let-over-lambda, it's not swank error
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2015-02-10T18:48:07Z jackdaniel: ok, in compiled version (mapcar fun lst) it evaluates fun on each element, but when interpreted it behaves correctly
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2015-02-10T19:18:53Z akkad: does weitz irc?
2015-02-10T19:19:01Z H4ns: no
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2015-02-10T19:25:28Z Fade: that's probably one of the reasons he publishes so much code. :)
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2015-02-10T19:28:34Z akkad: This regexp builder of his.
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2015-02-10T19:56:31Z xyh: an example of DEFUN in DEFUN as helper functions (just change two lines of the LET-FUN of ytool) :: https://www.refheap.com/97106
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2015-02-10T21:24:35Z jasom: Is there a tutorial or other good starting point for defining new asdf components?  In this case I'd like to use parenscript to generate a .js file as part of the compile stage
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2015-02-10T21:29:57Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: no tutorial, but a good starting point is cffi-grovel
2015-02-10T21:30:07Z fe[nl]ix: the extension is very simple
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2015-02-10T21:35:09Z tokenrove: what is the preferred approach to defining commutative multiple dispatch methods?  i've seen calling the primary method with the arguments reversed, and using a macro to define both methods with the same body.
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2015-02-10T21:35:58Z Bicyclidine: last time i had to do that i used a macro. didn't really like this solution, though.
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2015-02-10T21:39:07Z tokenrove: i would guess that the macro approach avoids the extra call, although perhaps some sufficiently smart compiler can do just as well with the first approach.  call-with-swapped-arguments seems cleaner somehow, but i don't have a justification for that feeling.
2015-02-10T21:40:28Z Bicyclidine: i doubt the compiler can do a lot with clos calls because of all the redefinition restrictions
2015-02-10T21:41:45Z tokenrove: a macro and double-definition it is, i guess.
2015-02-10T21:42:25Z Bicyclidine: i guess a proper thing to do might be defining your own class of gf that doesn't care about argument order, but that sounds hard
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2015-02-10T21:46:25Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: thanks
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2015-02-10T21:47:07Z Guest89653: .
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2015-02-10T21:49:37Z jasom: Bicyclidine: tokenrove what about defining an inline, non-generic function that does the operation, and then two methods that invoke that function with the right order?
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2015-02-10T21:51:36Z tokenrove: jasom: that'd do, too; i imagine it's basically equivalent to the macro approach.  either way, i'd want to make sure i'm always redefining both methods at the same time.
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2015-02-10T21:56:37Z fe[nl]ix: tokenrove: why would you do such a thing ?
2015-02-10T21:56:51Z Bicyclidine: what, make a commutative generic function?
2015-02-10T21:58:04Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2015-02-10T21:58:58Z tokenrove: fe[nl]ix: maybe i'm missing something obvious.  i have a method that is specialized on some types, but the order of the arguments is irrelevant, and i don't want to duplicate the method body.
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2015-02-10T21:59:58Z Bicyclidine: fe[nl]ix: i don't understand why you wouldn't. there's even one in a cdr.
2015-02-10T22:00:08Z fe[nl]ix: tokenrove: then why make a second method ?
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2015-02-10T22:01:02Z Bicyclidine: so that you don't have to define that a nominally commutative function takes a FOO and then a BAR, and not the other way around?
2015-02-10T22:01:29Z tokenrove: fe[nl]ix: ((foo type-a) (bar type-b)) and ((foo type-b) (bar type-a)) have the same effect, but ((foo type-a) (bar something-else)) does not, so i can't just specialize on the first (or second) arguments.
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2015-02-10T22:03:39Z fe[nl]ix: then move the actual code into a separate function, and call that from the two methods
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2015-02-10T22:05:16Z Krystof: if it's really commutative in all cases, you could have a default method which swaps the arguments
2015-02-10T22:07:06Z tokenrove: thank you all for your input.
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2015-02-10T22:29:56Z mischief: hello
2015-02-10T22:30:01Z mischief: is there a lisp bot here
2015-02-10T22:30:59Z akkad: clhs print
2015-02-10T22:31:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2015-02-10T22:31:29Z mischief: clhs (if (> 2 3) "Yup")
2015-02-10T22:31:32Z mischief: ?
2015-02-10T22:31:48Z akkad: specbot: help
2015-02-10T22:31:48Z specbot: To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database can be: clhs lp mop.
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2015-02-10T22:33:29Z mischief: specbot: help lp
2015-02-10T22:33:35Z mischief: i suck at this
2015-02-10T22:33:52Z pillton: The database lp is for launchpad bugs.
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2015-02-10T22:35:06Z Grue`: mischief: you can't make a bot execute arbitrary lisp code, that would be very unsafe
2015-02-10T22:35:45Z mischief: why not?
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2015-02-10T22:36:03Z pillton: Grue`: Unless you had first class environments.
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2015-02-10T22:37:13Z Grue`: it would still be very hard to sandbox
2015-02-10T22:38:13Z mischief: i know in lua you can certainly make sandbox because you can limit vm step count, and remove all unsafe c-level functions from the environment, or override them in a new environment with lua functions
2015-02-10T22:38:19Z mischief: can you not do that in a lisp vm?
2015-02-10T22:39:15Z nyef: There's also the matter that evalbots tend to adversely affect the signal-to-noise ratio of the channel. There are some limits on minion to prevent that sort of thing with some of its features.
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2015-02-10T22:46:23Z Bahman: Greetings!
2015-02-10T22:46:51Z decent: Howdy!
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2015-02-10T22:51:41Z AeroNotix: sie ma
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2015-02-10T23:00:59Z White_Flame: mischief: The only standard way to hide something in CL is to put in a closure, and even then implementation-specific debug calls can likely access it
2015-02-10T23:01:25Z White_Flame awaits any other ways of hiding objects that I didn't recall
2015-02-10T23:06:02Z nyef: You can always unintern some symbols...
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2015-02-10T23:07:14Z mischief: i decided to write a scheme myself in c, and i've never really written a lisp-like language ever before. so the concepts are very different to me. SICP is helping, though :)
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2015-02-10T23:09:44Z mischief: are "strings" supposed to be distinct from symbols?
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2015-02-10T23:11:17Z White_Flame: yes
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2015-02-10T23:11:38Z White_Flame: symbols are (usually) interned into a package
2015-02-10T23:11:48Z White_Flame: making them singleton objects
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2015-02-10T23:12:45Z mischief: so a string is a distinct data type from a symbol, an atom like an integer?
2015-02-10T23:12:50Z White_Flame: yes
2015-02-10T23:13:03Z White_Flame: a symbol is an object which references a string & package which name it
2015-02-10T23:13:29Z Bicyclidine: old lisps conflated them and used symbols where we'd use strings now
2015-02-10T23:13:36Z White_Flame: it also has a value, a plist for generic storage, a function, and more
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2015-02-10T23:14:26Z logand: hi, are there any lispers here that would like to meet in japan?
2015-02-10T23:14:29Z White_Flame: when you do (defun foo () ..), that sets the symbol-function of the symbol FOO to that functionality
2015-02-10T23:15:01Z ynniv: How does one expect to run unit tests for a new project? (ie, how should I organize mine to be more obvious)
2015-02-10T23:15:03Z White_Flame: logand: sounds like fun, but I'm not planning on flying to Japan any time soon :-P
2015-02-10T23:15:20Z mischief: White_Flame: ok.. i guess i need to add a string data type then.
2015-02-10T23:15:47Z logand: White_Flame: no prob, i'm flying to japan and thinking about some kind of lisp meeting would be nice
2015-02-10T23:15:54Z White_Flame: very old lisps didn't even have strings.  They're not technically necessary
2015-02-10T23:16:02Z mischief: i'm noticing that
2015-02-10T23:16:10Z Bicyclidine: still nice to have, though.
2015-02-10T23:16:36Z mischief: i can write (in my own language i am writing) (print "foo") and this tries to lookup symbol foo and print its value
2015-02-10T23:16:47Z mischief: but (print (quote "foo")) just prints foo
2015-02-10T23:16:48Z Bicyclidine: ok, that's probably wrong.
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2015-02-10T23:17:21Z White_Flame: then why bother with the doublequotes?
2015-02-10T23:17:52Z mischief: so that the parser can capture symbols with spaces
2015-02-10T23:18:05Z ynniv: now we’re getting somewhere
2015-02-10T23:18:05Z Bicyclidine: we use | for that.
2015-02-10T23:18:06Z White_Flame: so then they're optional
2015-02-10T23:18:41Z White_Flame: In CL, |foo bar| allows you to include otherwise punctuating characters, but it also doesn't modify the case
2015-02-10T23:18:53Z mischief: not really. (define a "fourty two") isn't the same as (define a fourty two)
2015-02-10T23:19:02Z White_Flame: so foo and |foo| are not identical, as their names are "FOO" and "foo"
2015-02-10T23:19:04Z ynniv: is |foo bar| interned?
2015-02-10T23:19:28Z White_Flame: mischief: I mean they're not required for all instances, only when spaces are involved
2015-02-10T23:19:33Z mischief: oh, yes.
2015-02-10T23:19:43Z Bicyclidine: ynniv: sure
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2015-02-10T23:20:23Z mischief: how are macros supposed to work? are they expanded at parse-time?
2015-02-10T23:20:24Z White_Flame: but #:|foo bar| is not :)
2015-02-10T23:20:26Z ynniv: in fact, is there a difference between strings and uninterned symbols?
2015-02-10T23:20:36Z Bicyclidine: mischief: compile time, usually
2015-02-10T23:21:05Z Bicyclidine: mischief: if you just have an evaluator, it usually goes (defun eval (form env) (let ((form (macroexpand form env))) ...do stuff with form...))
2015-02-10T23:21:07Z White_Flame: mischief: conceptually, the first step in evaluating the form
2015-02-10T23:21:32Z mischief: yes, i just have eval. no compile or byteocodes vm
2015-02-10T23:21:49Z White_Flame: note that the CL spec indicates that macros may be expanded multiple times
2015-02-10T23:21:52Z Bicyclidine: usually lisps make reading (parsing) and evaluating very separate steps.
2015-02-10T23:22:05Z Bicyclidine: you can do one during the other but it's not as bad as perl, i mean
2015-02-10T23:22:08Z mischief: so macros are actually modifying the sexprs before their evaluation or execution
2015-02-10T23:22:17Z White_Flame: yes
2015-02-10T23:22:29Z White_Flame: they're generally returning a new sexpr to replace the original macro-headed one
2015-02-10T23:22:32Z Bicyclidine: not modifying exactly, they're functions from sexprs to other sexprs. can be pure functions.
2015-02-10T23:23:19Z White_Flame: it's very bad form to directly modify sexprs that were literal in the source code
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2015-02-10T23:23:31Z mischief: is there a purpose to macros other than just 'pre-processing' before execution?
2015-02-10T23:23:41Z White_Flame: creating new language features
2015-02-10T23:23:56Z mischief: e.g. is there any reason that the macro can't just be a function that is run at execution time instead of compile time
2015-02-10T23:24:03Z White_Flame: yes
2015-02-10T23:24:06Z White_Flame: consider 'if'
2015-02-10T23:24:22Z White_Flame: you do not want the "then" clause evaluated if whatever condition is false
2015-02-10T23:24:48Z White_Flame: so you can't just say (special-if-macro (do-this 1) (do-that 2)), since both the 'then' and the 'else' will be evaluated before calling the function
2015-02-10T23:24:58Z White_Flame: s/special-if-macro/special-if-function/
2015-02-10T23:25:17Z oGMo: mischief: if you wanted macros evaluated as functions at runtime, you could for certain things (even IF), but in many cases it would perform poorly and require you eval expressions at runtime
2015-02-10T23:25:21Z Bicyclidine: you can also add arbitrary syntax, like the loop or case macros.
2015-02-10T23:25:34Z oGMo: you could translate if to (if-function (lambda ..) (lambda ..) (lambda ..))
2015-02-10T23:25:57Z White_Flame: the only other option would be a more java-like (special-if-function (lambda () (do-this 1)) (lambda () (do-that 2))), which is more pain for the user and would run slower
2015-02-10T23:26:07Z oGMo: quite
2015-02-10T23:26:30Z mischief: my interpreter is certainly not fast, and poorly implemented. :-)
2015-02-10T23:26:41Z White_Flame: as learning projects tend to be :)
2015-02-10T23:27:02Z mischief: i guess i should write cond, seems to be fairly useful
2015-02-10T23:27:04Z oGMo: slow and working is better than optimized and not
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2015-02-10T23:38:15Z mischief: seems i might need to write cond as a 'special form'
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2015-02-10T23:38:47Z Bicyclidine: well, there you go. if you have if already you don't need to.
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2015-02-10T23:40:26Z mischief: i have if but i'm not sure how i can write cond in terms of it.
2015-02-10T23:41:15Z White_Flame: it's a great example of where a macro would be great
2015-02-10T23:41:26Z mischief: :p
2015-02-10T23:41:36Z White_Flame: transform (cond (a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) into an 'if' tree
2015-02-10T23:41:53Z White_Flame: as a source-to-source conversion, then let 'if' deal with the execution
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2015-02-10T23:42:40Z mischief: currently i have no intermediate step between parse and eval where i could write macros
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2015-02-10T23:43:24Z White_Flame: but you now have a very clear example of what a macro can od that a function can't
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2015-02-10T23:44:13Z mischief: the trick is that all arguments to functions implemented in c are eval'd before passing to the c function
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2015-02-10T23:44:39Z Bicyclidine: well, that's fine, since a macro is presumably distinct.
2015-02-10T23:45:40Z Bicyclidine: cond in terms of if. you probably don't have backquote, though. (defmacro cond (&rest clauses) (if (null clauses) nil `(if ,(caar clauses) (progn ,@(cdar clauses)) (cond ,@(cdr clauses)))))
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2015-02-10T23:46:23Z mischief: heh. i haven't needed car/cdr yet either! :)
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2015-02-10T23:47:02Z Bicyclidine: your evaluator doesn't use car?
2015-02-10T23:47:34Z mischief: my shitty lisp uses arrays for lists :(
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2015-02-10T23:47:50Z mischief: and eval is written in c, not in the language itself
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2015-02-10T23:48:03Z Bicyclidine: well, that's boring.
2015-02-10T23:48:37Z mischief: its tricky
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2015-02-10T23:51:36Z Bicyclidine: (defun eval (form env) (let ((form (macroexpand form env))) (typecase form (symbol (lookup form env)) (cons (case (car form) (if (if (eval (second form) env) (eval (third form) env) (eval (fourth form) env))) (lambda (make-lambda form)) (otherwise (let ((fun (eval (first form) env))) (eval (lambda-body fun) (augment-environment (lambda-params fun) (mapcar #'eval (rest form))))))))) (t form)) or so
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2015-02-10T23:52:06Z pillton: minion: tell Bicyclidine about paste.lisp.org
2015-02-10T23:52:07Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``paste.lisp.org''.
2015-02-10T23:52:16Z Bicyclidine: guess that's a bit long and incoherent to be a "one-liner"
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2015-02-10T23:53:20Z jasom: Is it allowed to wrap methods defined in the standard (e.g. print-object)
2015-02-10T23:53:42Z Bicyclidine: wrap how? :around?
2015-02-10T23:53:46Z jasom: Bicyclidine: yeah
2015-02-10T23:54:00Z Bicyclidine: i don't think so, let me find a reference.
2015-02-10T23:54:01Z jasom: I specifically would like to override the printing of hash-tables to something more useful for me
2015-02-10T23:54:04Z mischief: Bicyclidine: yes, but i have none of this. e.g. let, macroexpand, typecase, symbol etc :>
2015-02-10T23:54:14Z mischief: it's so basic it hurts.
2015-02-10T23:54:43Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I found no mention of the word "method" in 3.2.2.3
2015-02-10T23:54:57Z mischief: so i guess i will settle for a special form
2015-02-10T23:55:03Z Bicyclidine: "Defining a method for a standardized generic function which is applicable when all of the arguments are direct instances of standardized classes. "
2015-02-10T23:55:10Z Bicyclidine: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2015-02-10T23:55:10Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
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2015-02-10T23:55:21Z Bicyclidine: clhs 3.2.2.3
2015-02-10T23:55:21Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2015-02-10T23:55:38Z Bicyclidine: oh, that's not going to have clos stuff...
2015-02-10T23:56:04Z jasom: ah
2015-02-10T23:56:14Z Bicyclidine: mischief: having a macroexpander will make things nicer than just adding special syntax for everything
2015-02-10T23:56:30Z Bicyclidine: it's kind of dumb that 11.1.2.1.2 is so important and it's buried five levels into the package chapter
2015-02-10T23:56:48Z Bicyclidine: anyway, i think the idea is that implementations might have around methods already.
2015-02-10T23:57:06Z jasom: right
2015-02-10T23:57:23Z jasom: well on sbcl at least *print-readably* gives me something slighlty useful
2015-02-10T23:59:59Z kephra just realized that one of the Lisp gurus now work at a faculty I founded a few years ago ;-)