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2015-02-01T00:13:02Z koz_desktop: Is there a way to read a text file into a string in Common Lisp?
2015-02-01T00:13:17Z koz_desktop: Everything I found seems to read line by line, or be concerned with opening a stream for reading.
2015-02-01T00:13:33Z Shinmera: That's how things work everywhere.
2015-02-01T00:14:02Z nyef: If you have a one-octet-per-character encoding then it's fairly straightforward, otherwise it's a pain in the... something.
2015-02-01T00:14:24Z fe[nl]ix: alexandria:read-file-into-string
2015-02-01T00:14:29Z nyef: Or that.
2015-02-01T00:14:30Z Shinmera: If you don't want to have the five-liner function in your project you can use alexandria:... yes, what fe[nl]ix said
2015-02-01T00:14:36Z koz_desktop: Thanks fe[nl]ix!
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2015-02-01T00:14:55Z koz_desktop: That's exactly what I was looking for.
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2015-02-01T00:51:36Z Bahman: Hi all!
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2015-02-01T00:53:19Z Xach: hello
2015-02-01T00:53:25Z koz_desktop: Hi Xach!
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2015-02-01T00:53:44Z koz_desktop: Wanted to thank you for making Quicklisp. I use it all the time, it's awesome, and you generally deserve praise.
2015-02-01T00:55:05Z Xach: glad to hear it's useful
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2015-02-01T01:06:39Z yenda: can I turn a string of space separated values into a list ?
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2015-02-01T01:07:05Z Xach: yenda: sure. there isn't a terse built-in way, but there are several functions in easy libraries to do it.
2015-02-01T01:08:02Z yenda: I am looking for some dirty hack that will do something like switch quotes with parens to make it a list
2015-02-01T01:08:25Z yenda: because split-sequence is way too slow
2015-02-01T01:08:55Z Xach: too slow for what?
2015-02-01T01:09:32Z yenda: for a million calls
2015-02-01T01:10:03Z Xach: What do you do with the list afterwards?
2015-02-01T01:10:50Z yenda: input for a perceptron
2015-02-01T01:12:05Z nyef: You're doing neural-net machine-learning stuff?
2015-02-01T01:12:21Z yenda: yes
2015-02-01T01:12:51Z nyef: ... And you for some reason have a fairly large list of... Oh. You're breaking up a corpus into strings, aren't you?
2015-02-01T01:13:00Z nyef: As individual works.
2015-02-01T01:13:24Z yenda: I have 60 000 images and 60 000 labels in 2 different files
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2015-02-01T01:14:19Z yenda: but I sorted them so now I have 10 files, one for each numbers (the images are numbers)
2015-02-01T01:16:14Z nyef: Digit-recognition or a more complex task?
2015-02-01T01:16:16Z yenda: I made a function that returns me a concept for my learning algorithm and I noticed that it's not reading a line that is slow but spliting it
2015-02-01T01:17:10Z yenda: nyef: it does digit recognition because it's the corpus I have but it can do anything
2015-02-01T01:18:14Z nyef: So... given that it's digit-recognition, why do you have to split strings again?
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2015-02-01T01:18:52Z yenda: because the digits are represented by a line of space separated values in a file
2015-02-01T01:19:00Z yenda: but maybe you mean I shouldn't use read-line ?
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2015-02-01T01:19:25Z nyef: So... what's the relationship between the values in that file and the actual images?
2015-02-01T01:19:40Z yenda: they are the image
2015-02-01T01:19:50Z nyef: Ohh...
2015-02-01T01:19:56Z nyef: So, bitmaps?
2015-02-01T01:20:11Z yenda: there is 784 values, 1 for each pixel of a 33x33 images
2015-02-01T01:20:39Z nyef: I... can't help but think that you're doing something horribly, horribly wrong.
2015-02-01T01:21:09Z nyef: But I don't know quite WHAT.
2015-02-01T01:21:28Z yenda: in the image extraction process ?
2015-02-01T01:22:16Z nyef: Each file is 1467 bytes long?
2015-02-01T01:23:07Z nyef: Why on earth are you parsing TEXT for BITMAPS?
2015-02-01T01:23:09Z yenda: it was not a critical part of the code before I started to use huge numbers so I just made it do what it had to do without thinking too much. I will probably refactor it later
2015-02-01T01:24:24Z nyef: I am for some reason reminded of something about using regexps to model damage to trees...
2015-02-01T01:24:43Z pillton: yenda: Is this the MNIST database?
2015-02-01T01:24:48Z yenda: yes
2015-02-01T01:25:20Z pillton: https://github.com/markcox80/mnist-database
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2015-02-01T01:27:24Z yenda: pillton: ty, it does a read-sequence maybe I should try that
2015-02-01T01:27:45Z pillton: Why wouldn't you just use it?
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2015-02-01T01:28:45Z pillton notes it has been a while since he wrote it (and used it).
2015-02-01T01:28:55Z yenda: because mine is already working and is like 50 loc
2015-02-01T01:29:24Z nyef: Ah, yes. The sunk cost fallacy.
2015-02-01T01:29:57Z pillton: Oh well. Suit yourself.
2015-02-01T01:30:25Z koz_desktop: OK... it seems like SBCL crashes trying to do this.
2015-02-01T01:30:25Z yenda: it's just that the only cost is the split-sequence and it just needs a minor correction
2015-02-01T01:30:34Z koz_desktop: I guess I *am* trying to read a 7MB YAML file into memory...
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2015-02-01T01:31:25Z Xach: koz_desktop: do what?
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2015-02-01T01:31:44Z nyef: koz_desktop: ... 32-bit?
2015-02-01T01:31:44Z yenda: nyef also code is copyrighted etc..
2015-02-01T01:31:57Z pillton: yenda: Just covert the files in to something that makes sense for your problem. You very rarely work with data of this kind in the published format.
2015-02-01T01:31:58Z koz_desktop: Xach: I have a YAML file from govtrack.us containing all the US senators that ever served (about 7MB).
2015-02-01T01:32:11Z koz_desktop: I'm using cl-yaclyaml, or trying to.
2015-02-01T01:32:17Z koz_desktop: nyef: I'm on a 64-bit OS.
2015-02-01T01:32:28Z koz_desktop: When I try to load that file, SBCL runs out of memory.
2015-02-01T01:32:37Z Xach: koz_desktop: i wouldn't expect that to crash or run out of memory.
2015-02-01T01:32:40Z nyef: koz_desktop: Neat.
2015-02-01T01:32:50Z Xach: I wonder what makes it do that.
2015-02-01T01:34:43Z nyef: I have a 64-bit computer that crashes after I have it send about 700 ping packets. And that's an improvement over how it behaved an hour ago.
2015-02-01T01:35:39Z nyef: But yeah, the SBCL heap on amd64 should be able to handle a 7MB file... Unless the parser is doing something completely crazy.
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2015-02-01T01:37:36Z pillton: Xach: What does your Quicklisp metadata have as the license for cl-ppcre?
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2015-02-01T01:40:08Z Xach: pillton: i don't store that info. i just check the .asd file. it doesn't look like it's in there.
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2015-02-01T01:40:13Z Xach checks harder
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2015-02-01T01:40:55Z Xach: yes, there is no :author or :license info in cl-ppcre
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2015-02-01T01:41:23Z pillton: Xach: Ok. No problem. I'm updating my .asd files in light of your recent QL post. My code uses the same license, but I don't know what to put as the value of :license.
2015-02-01T01:41:43Z Xach: "MIT" or a variation
2015-02-01T01:41:52Z Xach: thanks for updating!
2015-02-01T01:41:55Z pillton: Thanks.
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2015-02-01T01:42:04Z pillton: No problem.
2015-02-01T01:42:29Z Xach: I have only started checking the metadata for new projects. the status of old projects is uncertain. i should survey them and see what's missing.
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2015-02-01T01:43:16Z koz_desktop: (using the (cl-yy:yaml-load-file) command)
2015-02-01T01:43:16Z koz_desktop: I suspect it's because cl-yaclyaml uses hashtables internally, nesting them as required, to represent the structure.
2015-02-01T01:43:16Z koz_desktop: Which is probably why it runs out of memory so quickly.
2015-02-01T01:43:16Z koz_desktop: Which is a bit of a problem, because unless I want to hand-edit that file for the information I need, I need to load it into SBCL before I can work with it.
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2015-02-01T01:43:16Z koz_desktop: Can anyone suggest anything?
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2015-02-01T01:43:35Z yenda: pillton: that's what I do, I was just looking for a faster way than read-line split-sequence
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2015-02-01T01:44:05Z koz_desktop: Xach: Neither would I - but fact is, it happens.
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2015-02-01T01:44:30Z Xach: koz_desktop: do you have an url for the file? i'd love to try it locally.
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2015-02-01T01:45:12Z Xach: yenda: if you're interested only in the values, you could use parse-integer without splitting.
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2015-02-01T01:45:46Z koz_desktop: Xach: Sure thing - https://www.govtrack.us/data/congress-legislators/legislators-historical.yaml
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2015-02-01T01:47:28Z Xach: koz_desktop: what call do you use to process it?
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2015-02-01T01:52:49Z koz_desktop: Xach: cl-yy:yaml-load-file
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2015-02-01T01:53:49Z Xach: koz_desktop: do you give a big :size-limit?
2015-02-01T01:54:04Z Xach: it looks like it loads the entire file as a single string, then works from there.
2015-02-01T01:54:42Z koz_desktop: Xach: I gave it 10000000 (ten million) as :size-limit?
2015-02-01T01:54:48Z nyef: Entire file as string -> 28 megs...
2015-02-01T01:54:56Z koz_desktop: I mean, full stop instead of question mark.
2015-02-01T01:55:15Z koz_desktop: Thus, I am not sure what to do.
2015-02-01T01:55:37Z Ralt: Xach: was the lxc question rhetorical? (on reddit)
2015-02-01T01:55:39Z pillton: Xach: The license is a variant of the simplified BSD license. (Wikipedia -> BSD Licenses -> 2-clause license)
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2015-02-01T01:55:57Z Xach: Ralt: no. i could not figure out what lxc-wrapper wraps, because i have never heard of lxc.
2015-02-01T01:56:05Z Ralt: fair enough
2015-02-01T01:56:05Z Xach: the readme makes no mention of it.
2015-02-01T01:56:30Z Ralt: yeah, it's so common to me nowadays... I work a lot with them
2015-02-01T01:56:32Z Xach: pillton: ok
2015-02-01T01:56:38Z Ralt: I'll make sure to mention it in the readme
2015-02-01T01:56:39Z pillton: Xach: Are you happy with :license "Simplified BSD license variant" then?
2015-02-01T01:56:43Z Xach: pillton: sure
2015-02-01T01:56:56Z pillton: Great. Thanks for your time.
2015-02-01T01:57:02Z Ralt: Xach: I answered you on reddit anyway
2015-02-01T01:57:37Z Ralt: but it's 3m right now, so I'll update the readme tomorrow :P
2015-02-01T01:58:06Z Ralt: s/3m/3am/
2015-02-01T01:58:11Z Xach: ok!
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2015-02-01T02:03:50Z Ralt: Xach: updated the reddit answer
2015-02-01T02:03:55Z Ralt: and off to bed
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2015-02-01T02:09:30Z daniel__1: hello mighty wizards :) - young padawan is struggling with the FORMAT directive - maybe you can give me a hint: i am getting an error at using FORMAT, because the SB-FORMAT::CONTROL-STRING contains a tilde character, causing an error on compilation:  [Condition of type SB-FORMAT:FORMAT-ERROR] error in FORMAT: unknown format directive (character: Space)  - how can I prevent this?
2015-02-01T02:09:47Z nyef: clhs ~~
2015-02-01T02:09:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cae.htm
2015-02-01T02:10:50Z yenda: Xach: ty parse-integer in a loop gave me half the execution time
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2015-02-01T02:12:45Z Xach: glad to hear it
2015-02-01T02:13:04Z yenda: I feel like I will need thread if I want to do further optimization
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2015-02-01T02:13:10Z Xach: daniel__1: what does your call to FORMAT look like?
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2015-02-01T02:15:56Z daniel__1: Xach: (defun file-export (pathspec string)                                                                                                                                                       (with-open-file (stream pathspec  :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create) (format stream string)))
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2015-02-01T02:17:54Z nyef: daniel__1: (format stream "~A" string)
2015-02-01T02:18:22Z nyef: Or, you know, WRITE-SEQUENCE or WRITE-STRING instead of FORMAT.
2015-02-01T02:19:38Z daniel__1: nyef: oh, true, i forgot the "~A" - i wonder why it worked all the time before ó.Ò - thank you very much - i will try this and the other both functions :)
2015-02-01T02:19:59Z nyef: Because you didn't have a stray ~ in your input string.
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2015-02-01T02:20:46Z daniel__1: nyef: ah, yes, sure - thank you!
2015-02-01T02:23:05Z yenda: nyef: btw when you said you had the feeling I was doing something wrong, you were probably right because as long as I do more than one epoch I'm re-extracting the same data from the file again. It might be more efficient to preload them in lists or something
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2015-02-01T02:23:54Z nyef: yenda: Pre-process them to a binary format.
2015-02-01T02:24:56Z nyef: 33x33x1bpp images work out to 66 bytes each if you're being profligate.
2015-02-01T02:27:34Z nyef: If you want to get cute, preprocess them into something that looks like 1-dimensional arrays at fixed offsets within the file (say, one image/string per 256 bytes, including a string containing a tag if you need one), mmap() the sucker, and use sb-kernel:%make-lisp-obj to get the actual objects...  Probably overkill, but if you're going for extreme efficiency...
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2015-02-01T02:28:22Z yenda: I have one month of lisp behind me but it sounds intresting I'm gonna give it a try
2015-02-01T02:28:42Z nyef: Oh. Only a month? Nevermind, don't go to that extreme.
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2015-02-01T02:32:47Z yenda: but I guess I can make binary files that I would use read-sequence on
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2015-02-01T02:55:19Z pillton has created trivial-expand-type (https://github.com/markcox80/trivial-expand-type).
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2015-02-01T02:57:49Z Quadrescence: pillton, fantastic
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2015-02-01T02:58:13Z yenda: nyef: do you think I can use flexi-stream to make an in-memory binary stream or it won't do much performance improvement over reading a binary file ?
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2015-02-01T02:59:43Z Quadrescence: pillton, I suggest adding a LICENSE and submitting to Quicklisp
2015-02-01T03:00:12Z pillton: I just added the license.
2015-02-01T03:00:43Z nyef: yenda: I think that your biggest wins come from getting to a binary file format in the first place.
2015-02-01T03:01:08Z pillton: I will add it to quicklisp.
2015-02-01T03:02:23Z nyef: yenda: Beyond that, getting the file into memory so that you can use flexi-streams in-memory binary stream is pretty much the same cost as reading the binary file in the first place, so why bother with the extra overhead?
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2015-02-01T03:03:56Z yenda: true
2015-02-01T03:03:59Z Quadrescence: pillton, sounds like you need to write TRIVIAL-QUIT. :)
2015-02-01T03:05:02Z nyef: (trivial-quit :while-ahead t)
2015-02-01T03:05:27Z Quadrescence: :)
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2015-02-01T03:05:34Z pillton: Quadrescence: Hehe. Yes.
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2015-02-01T03:06:11Z pillton: If only implementations agreed on what happens when doing "$ lisp < file.lisp"
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2015-02-01T03:08:39Z JokesOnYou77: Hello Quadrescence.  Your List comp code really interested me so I did some more poking around on line and found another good one if you're interested: http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2013/01/real-list-comprehensions-in-lisp.html
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2015-02-01T03:09:25Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, ha, yeah
2015-02-01T03:09:38Z Quadrescence: I extended the list comprehension thing today
2015-02-01T03:10:05Z JokesOnYou77: Can I take a look?
2015-02-01T03:10:27Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/f7c3c7d22646288fa2ca33430bddf486eb4431f8/list-comprehension.lisp?at=default
2015-02-01T03:10:36Z Quadrescence: You can define your own list comprehension clauses
2015-02-01T03:10:45Z Quadrescence: with DEFINE-LC-CLAUSE
2015-02-01T03:11:01Z JokesOnYou77: I really like the idea of being able to use something like setbuilder notation in lisp
2015-02-01T03:11:13Z Quadrescence: I don't like new reader syntax
2015-02-01T03:11:27Z Quadrescence: (lc ...) is perfectly adequate in my opinionb
2015-02-01T03:11:28Z Quadrescence: -b
2015-02-01T03:14:33Z JokesOnYou77: It does look like you've made it significantly more robust.  And I agree, one kind of bracket is enough for me (clojure is terrifying).
2015-02-01T03:14:51Z Quadrescence: though it's cool that you can do it.
2015-02-01T03:17:11Z JokesOnYou77: Although I won't pretend to understand the whole thing, I also find your version a bit more transparent that the other things I've found as lines 29-33 explain most of what I need to know and do it clearly.
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2015-02-01T03:19:38Z Quadrescence: Mine does a little bit of trickery to support different kinds of clauses. But if this were a Quicklisp library for example, one could write their own kind of additional clause without modifying the original source code.
2015-02-01T03:20:09Z JokesOnYou77: beach has tried to explain EVAL-WHEN to me before but I still haven't had to use it yet so it's still a bit fuzzy, why do you need it with KW?
2015-02-01T03:20:29Z Quadrescence: So I can have it available in the macro for use later.
2015-02-01T03:21:36Z JokesOnYou77: Ah! this is a macro-expansion time vs. runtime thing, right?
2015-02-01T03:21:40Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-02-01T03:21:53Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, that makes sense
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2015-02-01T03:24:14Z JokesOnYou77: Also, I like the documentation, it's well done code.
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2015-02-01T03:24:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-02-01T03:24:43Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-02-01T03:24:49Z JokesOnYou77: g'morning beach
2015-02-01T03:26:20Z drmeister: beach: Hello
2015-02-01T03:27:00Z nyef: beach: The end is in sight! I got about 650 or so ICMP ECHO REQUEST packets through the network interface before the machine crashed from the hack I was using, and it recognizes a SCSI disk. I'm about ready to take a break from that project in order to experiment with Mezzano and get back to nq-clim. (-:
2015-02-01T03:27:05Z drmeister: beach: I've been studying your code
2015-02-01T03:27:30Z beach: nyef: Congratulations!
2015-02-01T03:27:41Z drmeister: In particular:   sicl/Code/Cleavir/Backends/HIR-interpreter/translate.lisp
2015-02-01T03:27:55Z beach: nyef: Looking forward to your doing NQ-CLIM again.
2015-02-01T03:28:30Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I remember that one.  I used it for testing purposes.
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2015-02-01T03:29:40Z drmeister: beach: I'm getting the sense that I need to generate MIR to bind passed arguments.  If I generate MIR for optional and keyword arguments then I can take advantage of your basic-block identification code and the code in translate.lisp
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2015-02-01T03:30:27Z beach: OK.
2015-02-01T03:31:15Z drmeister: I thought I could go from HIR to LLVM-IR in one step.  But a lambda like (x &optional y) would consist of two basic-blocks.
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2015-02-01T03:31:47Z beach: Why is that?
2015-02-01T03:32:00Z drmeister: I can bind x in the entry block, but then I have to test if a second argument was passed and branch two one of two other basic blocks depending if it was or not.
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2015-02-01T03:32:47Z beach: OK, I believe you.
2015-02-01T03:32:51Z drmeister: So a lambda-list as simple as (x &optional y) generates basic-blocks.
2015-02-01T03:33:25Z nyef: Ahh, SB!C:OPTIONAL-DISPATCH, how I loath thee... (not really, but it's still a pain at times.)
2015-02-01T03:34:21Z beach: drmeister: But you must already be doing something like that, no?
2015-02-01T03:34:29Z drmeister: If I convert an enter-instruction into a my-enter-instruction;bind-required;bind-optional-if-passed; I can make bind-optional-if-passed a branch-instruction.
2015-02-01T03:35:45Z drmeister: I am doing something like that - but if I generate MIR like this then there will be a 1:1 correspondence between MIR basic-blocks and llvm-ir basic blocks.
2015-02-01T03:36:02Z beach: Yeah, OK, that makes sense.
2015-02-01T03:36:12Z brucem: nyef: how far do you plan to stray from the CLIM path with NQ-CLIM?
2015-02-01T03:36:52Z nyef: brucem: Thus far, the only places where I'm actually PLANNING to diverge are lower-level bits like the design-based drawing model.
2015-02-01T03:37:01Z drmeister: If I don't do that then there would be a lot more llvm-ir basic blocks but every MIR basic-block would match an llvm-ir basic block.
2015-02-01T03:37:14Z nyef: ... and some aspects of port event handling.
2015-02-01T03:37:33Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I think I understand.
2015-02-01T03:37:35Z drmeister: But that seems inelegant.
2015-02-01T03:37:35Z nyef: There are some dreadfully stupid bits in the lower levels of CLIM that I'd just as soon rather avoid.
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2015-02-01T03:37:45Z brucem: nyef: I'm vaguely thinking about making some changes to DUIM this year.
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2015-02-01T03:38:21Z xyh: when switch from one package to another, the *readtable* will not change.
2015-02-01T03:38:21Z xyh: if I have written a package which has some reader-macros, how should I provide them to others ?
2015-02-01T03:38:21Z xyh: just change the global *readtable* ??
2015-02-01T03:38:21Z xyh: or to provide a function to switch from different readtables ??
2015-02-01T03:38:37Z Quadrescence: xyh, look at NAMED-READTABLES
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2015-02-01T03:39:57Z nyef: ... at some point I should look into NAMED-READTABLES. I've been tempted to do some readtable hacking a time or two, but each time there's been some niggling problem like needing different semantics for #\: or the readtable not actually being the showstopper...
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2015-02-01T03:41:45Z drmeister: beach: In your copious free time, have you had a chance to add support for user defined declares?
2015-02-01T03:41:49Z brucem: nyef: Like there are better models for styling of things than just setting a bunch of parameters on each thing for colors, etc. Also, thinking about a better layout model.
2015-02-01T03:42:32Z JokesOnYou77: Is there a way to get the emacs REPL not to go back to the bottom of the pave whenever I evaluate an expression?  (Behave more like my terminal)
2015-02-01T03:42:34Z nyef: brucem: I haven't got any real experience with layout models, so I can't help you there.
2015-02-01T03:42:45Z beach: drmeister: No, sorry.
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2015-02-01T03:43:05Z nyef: I've been figuring to start by getting NQ-CLIM to usable condition and then seeing where it breaks down in practice.
2015-02-01T03:44:01Z drmeister: beach: What is the status of source position tracking - is that built in to Cleavir?
2015-02-01T03:44:12Z xyh: nyef: [ (: COMPILER-OF-A-LANGUAGE :) <body> ] will read a string contains "<body>" and call COMPILER-OF-A-LANGUAGE on that string.
2015-02-01T03:44:30Z beach: drmeister: No. :(
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2015-02-01T03:45:04Z drmeister: beach: I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out how much thinking I have to do now or come back later and back add debugging functionality.
2015-02-01T03:45:31Z nyef: drmeister: The most popular debugging tool in CL is FORMAT.
2015-02-01T03:45:46Z nyef: The second most popular is obtaining a backtrace.
2015-02-01T03:45:48Z drmeister: nyef: Which I find really sad.
2015-02-01T03:45:52Z nyef: Third is TRACE.
2015-02-01T03:46:13Z nyef: I don't know if it's sad or not.
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2015-02-01T03:46:18Z beach: drmeister: I understand.  I have too many things that I need to do in parallel unfortunately.  Including finishing 3 papers in the next 3 weeks.
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2015-02-01T03:46:37Z nyef: I mean, it might be nice if the tools worked better, but I have no idea if they're actually better TOOLS, you know?
2015-02-01T03:47:44Z drmeister: beach: You are providing a gift to me - work on your timeline.
2015-02-01T03:48:05Z drmeister: nyef: I use my tools all the time.
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2015-02-01T03:50:37Z drmeister: nyef: Since I'm working between Common Lisp and C++ all the time I end up in debuggers like llvm and gdb a lot.
2015-02-01T03:50:48Z drmeister: I'm adding DWARF support to my generated Common Lisp code.
2015-02-01T03:51:07Z nyef: So my question is, does nobody use the tools because they suck, or do the tools suck because nobody uses them?
2015-02-01T03:51:24Z drmeister: Which tools?
2015-02-01T03:51:39Z nyef: SBCL's debugger, primarily.
2015-02-01T03:52:01Z beach: When I worked in C, I became pretty good with GDB.  I still want something as good for Common Lisp.  Luckily, I don't need a good debugger as often with Common Lisp.  But when I do, I really feel lost, not knowing what my program is doing.
2015-02-01T03:52:21Z drmeister: Oh, I'm sure people use it.   I don't use SBCL very often
2015-02-01T03:52:23Z nyef: There's also the possibility that the closer you get to being able to improve the tools, the less useful you find them...
2015-02-01T03:52:52Z drmeister: I use lldb all the time.
2015-02-01T03:53:38Z drmeister: backtraces in SBCL, do they contain line number information?   Or just function names?
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2015-02-01T03:54:34Z nyef: Function names, but if you compile with high enough DEBUG policy then you can select a frame and get source-location information (which is a path through CONS cells, not line numbers).
2015-02-01T03:55:15Z drmeister: So it stores the source code for the function?
2015-02-01T03:55:30Z drmeister: As CONS cells?
2015-02-01T03:55:38Z nyef: No, it stores a path through the source code as a set of integers.
2015-02-01T03:56:01Z drmeister: How do you get the CONS cells of the source code?
2015-02-01T03:56:07Z nyef: "Go to the 17th top-level form in the file, the third sub-form of that, the seventh sub-form of that. That's where we are.")
2015-02-01T03:56:27Z nyef: So, 17, 3, 7.
2015-02-01T03:57:09Z nyef: Clever, compact, completely useless for a non-lisp-oriented viewer.
2015-02-01T03:57:21Z beach: What happens when a macro alters that path?
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2015-02-01T03:57:55Z nyef: There's some bits to accommodate macroexpansion and inline-expansion tracking.
2015-02-01T03:58:14Z nyef: I'm not too clear on the details, it's one of the fuzzier parts of the system for me.
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2015-02-01T04:02:41Z JokesOnYou77: In college our professor wouldn't explain any of the Lisp debugging tools because "If you're writing your code carefully you won't need them."  And for the project sizes we were working on he was pretty much right, but since then I've fund that the linked source in the emacs backtrace is pretty good.  But there really is no sustitute for being able to step through your function evaluation and pause and evaluate code with loc
2015-02-01T04:02:41Z JokesOnYou77: al variables at any point.
2015-02-01T04:04:28Z JokesOnYou77: The program we used in 101, DrScheme had that functionalirty though(at least it had a stepper I think)  and I'd love to have that for emacs.
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2015-02-01T04:05:59Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, I've used steppers maybe once during Lisp development. I guess that doesn't say much though
2015-02-01T04:06:49Z JokesOnYou77: The debugger in LispWorks is a bit more user-friendly than the one in emacs (better gui) but ive found them to be functionally equal.  I would count that as an argument on the side of "No one uses them because they suck" as LS is proprietary and they have incentive to imporive their tools even (or especially) if no one is using them
2015-02-01T04:07:56Z JokesOnYou77: Quadrescence, it's not just the stepper itself though, it's the ability to pause execution at an arbitrary point and see the value of all of the variables and move through the program and see how they change
2015-02-01T04:08:47Z Quadrescence: JokesOnYou77, put a (BREAK) in there and look at the backtrace
2015-02-01T04:09:56Z JokesOnYou77: That does help, and I do use that, but it's not the same as I can no longer move forward. Also, I can't evaluste code in the REPL with the currently bound values of my vars can I?
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2015-02-01T04:10:51Z Xach: You can move forward from a break by using the continue restart.
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2015-02-01T04:11:09Z Xach: You can evaluate things with :
2015-02-01T04:11:18Z Xach: (in sldb)
2015-02-01T04:12:22Z JokesOnYou77: That's true, but can I step to the next function?
2015-02-01T04:12:33Z nyef: If you're on SBCL, use a high-ish DEBUG quality for : to do useful things in terms of the local variables... at which point stepping might work as well.
2015-02-01T04:12:37Z drmeister: beach: What do you think of this?    (mir-form '(lambda () (list 1 2)))
2015-02-01T04:13:02Z beach: drmeister: Looks good! :)
2015-02-01T04:13:18Z JokesOnYou77: Interesting, I'll have to play with that
2015-02-01T04:13:20Z drmeister: Isn't it?  It's my finest work.
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2015-02-01T04:13:21Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/a2BwfUk
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2015-02-01T04:14:20Z drmeister: Note how I've inserted a BIND-ARGUMENT-STATIC-ENVIRONMENT instruction and it binds the static environment to G3066 and G3068
2015-02-01T04:14:21Z beach: drmeister: Looks good to me.
2015-02-01T04:14:28Z beach: Yes, I noticed.
2015-02-01T04:14:53Z beach: drmeister: You will soon be a master flowchart manipulator.
2015-02-01T04:15:19Z nyef: ... If there's a bug, does it become a flawchart?
2015-02-01T04:15:36Z drmeister: Ok, so every enter-instruction would turn into a sequence of BIND-ARGUMENT-STATIC-ENVIRONMENT; a sequence of BIND-FIXED-ARGUMENT; a sequence of BIND-OPTIONAL-ARGUMENT; and a BIND-KEY-ARGUMENTS that loops on itself.
2015-02-01T04:15:39Z beach: nyef: Indeed. :)
2015-02-01T04:15:58Z drmeister: Oh, and BIND-REST
2015-02-01T04:16:13Z beach: Sounds reasonable.
2015-02-01T04:16:49Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-02-01T04:17:20Z beach: drmeister: My experience is that very few people use debugging tools (beyond FORMAT or equivalent) at all.  Me, I can't work like that.  I would really like to see something as good as GDB in the (free) Lisp world.
2015-02-01T04:17:59Z drmeister: Few people write really complex software.
2015-02-01T04:18:06Z drmeister: Maybe?
2015-02-01T04:18:41Z beach: I need my tools even for fairly simple stuff.  Though like I said, a lot less so with Lisp than with C.
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2015-02-01T04:20:52Z drmeister: Does insert-instruction-after return the new instruction?
2015-02-01T04:21:06Z drmeister: It doesn't look like it does from reading the code.
2015-02-01T04:21:29Z beach: drmeister: Maybe not.
2015-02-01T04:21:37Z beach: Did I say somewhere that it should?
2015-02-01T04:22:18Z drmeister: No, I'm wishing it would.  Then I could (setq new (insert-instruction-after (make-instruction ...) current-instruction))
2015-02-01T04:22:35Z beach: That can be arranged.
2015-02-01T04:22:52Z drmeister: If you have the time.  I'll wrap it for now
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2015-02-01T04:22:59Z beach: OK.
2015-02-01T04:24:13Z emaczen: I'm having some trouble finding out the the interaction between :initargs in a defclass statement and initialize-instance
2015-02-01T04:24:14Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
2015-02-01T04:25:00Z emaczen: how can I reply back to pjb?
2015-02-01T04:25:10Z nyef: minion: help memo
2015-02-01T04:25:10Z minion: To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak.
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2015-02-01T04:27:08Z emaczen: minion: memo for pjb: Thanks, although I decided to just use remove-if-not on the string since my needs were simple enough
2015-02-01T04:27:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-02-01T04:27:52Z emaczen: Are :initargs evaluated if initialize-instance is defined?
2015-02-01T04:28:06Z emaczen: Specifically, my :initargs comes from a superclass
2015-02-01T04:28:21Z beach: emaczen: Hold on a bit.
2015-02-01T04:28:39Z beach: emaczen: All arguments are always evaluated.
2015-02-01T04:29:37Z beach: emaczen: Furthermore, there is always an applicable method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE for standard objects.  Do you mean an :AFTER method?
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2015-02-01T04:30:00Z emaczen: I put :after on my intialize-instance method
2015-02-01T04:30:38Z beach: That doesn't influence how the :INITARGs are used to initialize the instance.
2015-02-01T04:31:22Z beach: emaczen: One more thing: Common Lisp doesn't have "statements".  It has "forms" and "expressions".
2015-02-01T04:31:39Z nyef: Right, time I got some sleep.
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2015-02-01T04:32:15Z beach: emaczen: Whether the :INITARG comes from a superclass also doesn't matter.
2015-02-01T04:33:02Z beach: emaczen: All slots are gathered up into the "effective slots" for the class that you instantiate.  Once that is done, the origin of the slot doesn't matter.
2015-02-01T04:33:49Z emaczen: beach: The initialize-instance method calls another method to set one its slots based upon the value of a superclass slot
2015-02-01T04:34:14Z beach: That's fine.
2015-02-01T04:34:26Z emaczen: I keep getting an error saying that this superclass slot is unbound
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2015-02-01T04:34:42Z beach: I think you had better paste a small example.
2015-02-01T04:35:25Z emaczen: beach: Do I have to reference this superclass slot in initialize-instance? Right now, I am passing it as a keyword argument in make-instance just like I would if I were only using the :initargs from defclass
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2015-02-01T04:35:35Z emaczen: beach: sounds good
2015-02-01T04:35:48Z emaczen: do you use any of the pastebin packages from emacs?
2015-02-01T04:36:15Z beach: I haven't been doing that.  I don't paste very often.
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2015-02-01T04:36:22Z beach: But I know there is one.
2015-02-01T04:36:42Z beach: minion: lisppaste
2015-02-01T04:36:42Z minion: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
2015-02-01T04:37:16Z beach: emaczen: paste.lisp.org is preferable here.
2015-02-01T04:37:45Z beach: Unfortunately, though, the paste is no longer automatically announced in #lisp, so you need to do that manually.
2015-02-01T04:41:09Z emaczen: Paste number 145514
2015-02-01T04:41:23Z beach: URL please?
2015-02-01T04:41:24Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145514
2015-02-01T04:41:46Z emaczen: why are pastes no long auto announced?
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2015-02-01T04:42:08Z beach: Too much spam.
2015-02-01T04:42:23Z beach: It should be &KEY DATA-STREAM
2015-02-01T04:42:49Z emaczen: I think I tried that, let me verify
2015-02-01T04:43:10Z beach: But you don't use it.
2015-02-01T04:43:18Z beach: So why put it in there?
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2015-02-01T04:43:37Z emaczen: the method (parse-data) uses it
2015-02-01T04:43:45Z JokesOnYou77: Can I SET-MACRO-CHARACTER with multiple charaters?  The hyperspec doesn't give any example as to how to use NEW-FUNCTION for how to actually check the next character(s) in the sequence
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2015-02-01T04:44:19Z beach: emaczen: Inside the INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, the parameter is not used.  Therefore you can omit it.
2015-02-01T04:44:37Z beach: emaczen: It is not magically passed to functions you call from INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2015-02-01T04:45:24Z emaczen: beach: yeah I guess that isn't the issure here
2015-02-01T04:45:47Z emaczen: (setf d (make-instance 'dl:sv-data-loader :sep #\; :data-stream "file-name"))
2015-02-01T04:46:00Z emaczen: The issue seems to be that the :initarg does not work
2015-02-01T04:46:15Z emaczen: Above i pasted my make-instance call I am testing in the REPL
2015-02-01T04:46:25Z drmeister: beach: How's this?   http://imgur.com/HHzY6vd
2015-02-01T04:46:32Z beach: Which :initarg doesn't work?
2015-02-01T04:46:39Z drmeister: (mir-form '(lambda (x y) (list x y)))
2015-02-01T04:46:42Z beach: drmeister: One sec...
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2015-02-01T04:46:58Z drmeister: No prob.
2015-02-01T04:46:59Z emaczen: beach: the backtrace I get says that data-stream is ubound
2015-02-01T04:47:39Z beach: emaczen: Let me see if I can reproduce it.
2015-02-01T04:48:18Z emaczen: Do you want me to paste parse-data?
2015-02-01T04:48:31Z beach: No need.  I'll replace it.
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2015-02-01T04:49:48Z beach: emaczen: Perhaps you are under the impression that the MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND will assign values to your slots?
2015-02-01T04:50:04Z beach: emaczen: It doesn't.  It creates new local variables.
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2015-02-01T04:50:27Z beach: emaczen: You don't do anything to the slots mentioned in WITH-SLOTS.
2015-02-01T04:50:57Z drmeister: Here's a better one:   http://imgur.com/9VYco0k
2015-02-01T04:51:04Z drmeister: I added an index for the fixed argument
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2015-02-01T04:51:05Z emaczen: So, I was expecting multiple-value-bind to set `formatted-lines` and `headers` but that shouldn't effect `data-stream` being unbound
2015-02-01T04:51:14Z beach: True.
2015-02-01T04:51:42Z beach: drmeister: Looks very good.
2015-02-01T04:53:28Z beach: emaczen: When I do it, the slot data stream is bound.
2015-02-01T04:53:33Z drmeister: So I'll flesh out this and prepend it with a bunch of alloca's for the variables that will store everything.
2015-02-01T04:53:47Z beach: emaczen: So is the slot SEP.
2015-02-01T04:53:52Z beach: emaczen: But not the others.
2015-02-01T04:54:04Z beach: drmeister: That seems very reasonable.
2015-02-01T04:54:29Z emaczen: beach: how are you using make-instance
2015-02-01T04:54:50Z drmeister: Do you see any advantage to this rather than just translating the enter-instruction and generating a bunch of LLVM basic-blocks?
2015-02-01T04:54:51Z beach: emaczen: (make-instance 'sv-data-loader :sep #\; :data-stream 234)
2015-02-01T04:55:10Z beach: drmeister: I can't say either way.
2015-02-01T04:55:46Z beach: drmeister: I think I told you before that I think the logic is the same, and it is better to manipulate the flowchart if you need some other operations on it later on.
2015-02-01T04:56:10Z drmeister: There's no optimizations that would be done on MIR are there?  The optimizations are done in HIR and after MIR they would be done by llvm.
2015-02-01T04:56:16Z emaczen: beach: any ideas on what I can do to resolve data-stream being unbound?
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2015-02-01T04:57:33Z beach: drmeister: I suppose that's true.  Though I plan to incorporate optimizations that LLVM might not have, like loop unswitching.
2015-02-01T04:58:35Z drmeister: Won't those be done on HIR?   Can you apply optimizations like that with my MIR instructions inserted?
2015-02-01T04:58:50Z beach: emaczen: How about you boil everything down to just those three forms + the make-instance, remove the PARSE-DATA, and see if the problem remains.  Then we can check the remaining code.
2015-02-01T04:59:10Z drmeister: beach: At this point the MIR graph is tainted with my weird MIR instructions.
2015-02-01T04:59:26Z beach: drmeister: Those optimizations will be done on HIR so that the address calculations can be optimized as well.
2015-02-01T04:59:45Z beach: drmeister: Most optimizations don't care what the instructions do.
2015-02-01T04:59:55Z beach: drmeister: Just what the inputs and outputs are.
2015-02-01T05:00:15Z drmeister: Right, so they would happen before I do what I'm doing here.
2015-02-01T05:00:19Z beach: drmeister: For example, global value numbering does not interpret the instructions.  It assumes that every instruction type is distinct.
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2015-02-01T05:00:40Z beach: drmeister: I am saying, it will work with your instructions too.
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2015-02-01T05:00:49Z beach: CRAP
2015-02-01T05:00:52Z beach: I meant MIR.
2015-02-01T05:01:02Z beach: drmeister: Those optimizations will be done on MIR so that the address calculations can be optimized as well.
2015-02-01T05:01:04Z drmeister: I see.
2015-02-01T05:01:34Z drmeister: Well, this is very informative.  Your code is very clear.
2015-02-01T05:01:45Z beach: Whew!  Thanks.
2015-02-01T05:02:20Z beach: I hope it is, because I can no longer remember what I did from one week to the next.  I read my code as if someone else wrote it.
2015-02-01T05:03:13Z drmeister: I mean, it's the guts of a compiler - and I'm following what it's doing.
2015-02-01T05:03:28Z beach: Great!
2015-02-01T05:03:37Z drmeister: It's widely considered that compilers are complex pieces of software.
2015-02-01T05:04:16Z beach: That's true.  I haven't considered that idea for some time.
2015-02-01T05:04:58Z beach: I guess everything for which one does not have the required knowledge is complex.
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2015-02-01T05:06:06Z drmeister: Now I'm sorry to keep bringing this up. But within 30 seconds of generating code I will start generating code with bugs in it.   There are no function names on any of these enter-instructions.   Do you have any idea how I can get function names bound to functions?
2015-02-01T05:06:37Z drmeister: The way this looks right now all of my function names will be gensyms  (not very illuminating).
2015-02-01T05:07:40Z drmeister: I used that custom declare to do it.   How difficult do you think it would be for me to go into the AST generating code and the AST-to-HIR code and carry that declare through to the enter-instruction?
2015-02-01T05:07:41Z beach: You can create a subclass of ENTER-INSTRUCTION,
2015-02-01T05:08:09Z beach: drmeister: .. say NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION, with a slot NAME in it.
2015-02-01T05:08:27Z beach: drmeister: A similar thing would have to be done for the corresponding AST.
2015-02-01T05:08:40Z drmeister: Ah
2015-02-01T05:08:55Z beach: drmeister: Then you put :AFTER methods on the generic functions that generate those instances.
2015-02-01T05:09:08Z emaczen: beach: I restarted lisp and everything seems to work now...
2015-02-01T05:09:17Z beach: emaczen: Hmm. OK.
2015-02-01T05:09:23Z emaczen: weird right?
2015-02-01T05:09:29Z beach: Absolutely.
2015-02-01T05:10:20Z beach: drmeister: In the worst case, you override the methods that create those instances and use your own.
2015-02-01T05:10:23Z drmeister: I'll have to look into that.  What would the :AFTER methods do exactly?  CHANGE-CLASS?
2015-02-01T05:10:52Z beach: drmeister: That is one possibility.
2015-02-01T05:11:27Z drmeister: Ok, as long as there is a viable path to get this info down from the S-expressions to the HIR instruction I can proceed and then come back with some questions if I can't figure it out.
2015-02-01T05:12:15Z beach: drmeister: While I had this kind of customization in mind when I created Cleavir, I haven't actually tested how well it works.  If there is a problem, I would like to know, because it is meant to work.
2015-02-01T05:13:16Z beach: drmeister: For instance, there should definitely be an argument IMPLEMENTATION to COMPILE-FORM or whatever, so that you can specialize on your own implementation.
2015-02-01T05:13:25Z drmeister: Oh, you'll be hearing from me :)  You can be assured of that.
2015-02-01T05:14:35Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I want that as well.   My plan is to integrate Cleavir incrementally.   I can drop it into my compiler and if Cleavir fails to compile something (because I haven't finished implementing it - it will drop back and use my compiler).
2015-02-01T05:14:51Z beach: That's an interesting idea.
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2015-02-01T05:15:37Z drmeister: Yes, then I'll have a SH*TTY-COMPILER implementation and a CLEAVIR-COMPILER implementation.
2015-02-01T05:16:02Z beach: You will probably need the original one for bootstrapping anyway.
2015-02-01T05:16:15Z drmeister: COMPILE-FILE and COMPILE will try CLEAVIR-COMPILER first and if it fails switch to ... well, you know.
2015-02-01T05:16:27Z beach: Yes, I understand.
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2015-02-01T05:17:22Z drmeister: I do need the original for bootstrapping - it's not going anywhere.  It brings up CLOS and that runs Cleavir.
2015-02-01T05:17:31Z drmeister: It will have one interpreter and two compilers.
2015-02-01T05:17:41Z beach: Wow.
2015-02-01T05:18:27Z drmeister: It's bootstrapping from the clang C++ compiler and files full of S-expressions every time I build it.
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2015-02-01T06:16:01Z beach: I think I will provide extrinsic environments with different functionality levels.  The basic level can only handle compiling top-level standard defining forms such as DEFVAR, DEFUN, DEFGENERIC, etc.
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2015-02-01T06:18:30Z beach: The next level will be able to create new functions and generic functions in the environment.
2015-02-01T06:21:03Z beach: Initially, I thought they would be one and the same, but it looks like I need the first level in order to create a separate instance of the second level, so the first level is a useful abstraction in itself.
2015-02-01T06:22:06Z beach: Or rather, in order to create an instance of the second level environment, I think I need an existing separate instance of the first level, and that is why the first level environment is a useful abstraction in itself.
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2015-02-01T06:30:11Z pillton: Hmmm. http://hastebin.com/ejuvizicob
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2015-02-01T06:31:05Z pillton: I'm not sure why this is not allowed.
2015-02-01T06:31:35Z beach: I see what you mean.  But the Common Lisp HyperSpec is clear I think.
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2015-02-01T06:40:52Z ggole: (make-instance <type>) couldn't work in general - what would be the point of making it work in this special case?
2015-02-01T06:42:56Z pillton: Well, some implementations have classes for the type (simple-array double-float (*)), which would allow me to dispatch on them.
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2015-02-01T06:45:40Z ggole: I don't think make-instance tells you anything about dispatch
2015-02-01T06:46:39Z pillton: No, but it means I can't do this (defmethod garbage ((obj (simple-array double-float (*))))).
2015-02-01T06:46:56Z xyh: how to get the function from a symbol which the function bound to ?
2015-02-01T06:47:07Z pillton: MAKE-SEQUENCE has no issue with it http://hastebin.com/umilutugix .
2015-02-01T06:47:18Z antonv`: xyh: (symbol-function ...)
2015-02-01T06:47:51Z ggole: pillton: I see
2015-02-01T06:48:01Z xyh: antonv`: thanks
2015-02-01T06:51:38Z Bicyclidine: pillton: make-sequence does not use make-instance
2015-02-01T06:52:01Z Bicyclidine: make-instance works on classes, not types, which are distinct
2015-02-01T06:52:03Z ggole: Hmm, is (defmethod foo ((a #.(class-of (make-array 3 :element-type 'double-float)))) ...) reasonable?
2015-02-01T06:52:04Z ggole: Probably not.
2015-02-01T06:53:01Z pillton: At some point it says, is this a valid sequence type or not.
2015-02-01T06:53:08Z pillton: MAKE-INSTANCE could ask the same question.
2015-02-01T06:53:10Z Bicyclidine: right, type, not class
2015-02-01T06:53:15Z Bicyclidine: make instance is class
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2015-02-01T06:53:53Z Bicyclidine: types couldn't work for the method system, since you have integer ranges and stuff that overlaps but not entirely
2015-02-01T06:54:40Z Bicyclidine: ggole: i don't think there's any guarantee it wouldn't be the same as an array t
2015-02-01T06:54:45Z pillton: It doesn't have to work for that. What does MAKE-SEQUENCE do for '(or vector list) ?
2015-02-01T06:54:58Z ggole: Bicyclidine: yeah
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2015-02-01T06:55:23Z Bicyclidine: pillton: it signals an error, for me!
2015-02-01T06:55:46Z pillton: Yes. So it is reasonable for (defmethod garbage ((obj (or vector list)))) to signal an error too.
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2015-02-01T06:56:23Z Bicyclidine: "An error of type type-error must be signaled if the result-type is neither a recognizable subtype of list, nor a recognizable subtype of vector. "
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2015-02-01T06:56:31Z Bicyclidine: pillton: which it does?
2015-02-01T06:57:02Z ggole: pillton: what are you trying to do?
2015-02-01T06:57:27Z pillton: I have no issue with MAKE-SEQUENCE. My issue is with MAKE-INSTANCE.
2015-02-01T06:57:44Z pillton: (make-instance (trivial-expand-type:expand-type 'blah)) => #<MY-CLASS>
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2015-02-01T06:58:30Z Bicyclidine: what do you do on (make-instance '(integer (4) 7))? or do you add a new category of "trivial types"
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2015-02-01T06:59:05Z Bicyclidine: i mean, i guess it could use typexpand, but first you'd need typexpand to be standard
2015-02-01T06:59:08Z pillton: If the implementation has support for that, then it creates an instance, otherwise it signals an error. (Just like what MAKE-SEQUENCE does).
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2015-02-01T06:59:36Z Bicyclidine: but how do you specialize methods?
2015-02-01T06:59:51Z Bicyclidine: can you define a method on (integer (4) 7)? what if then you have one on (integer 5 9)
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2015-02-01T07:02:20Z pillton: It depends on whether the classes for those types are distinct.
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2015-02-01T07:07:12Z pillton: O
2015-02-01T07:07:27Z pillton: I've written TRIVIAL-EXPAND-TYPE so it is standard now. :)
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2015-02-01T07:37:45Z yenda: how do I write a list of float in a binary file ? I'm trying to use write-sequence but I'm sure what :element-type to use
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2015-02-01T07:43:07Z Grue`: that depends on the encoding. you might convert them to strings, or use something like ieee-floats for more compact binary conversion
2015-02-01T07:43:44Z scymtym_: see https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles for some encoding options
2015-02-01T07:48:49Z yenda: Grue`: I just want a binary file that I can then use with read sequence
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2015-02-01T07:52:33Z yenda: scymtym: it uses :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) as I expected but I already have a sequence
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2015-02-01T08:00:54Z scymtym_: yenda: i misunderstood what you want to do then, sorry
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2015-02-01T08:04:50Z yenda: scymtym: I have a list of single-float and I want to put it in a binary-file using write-sequence
2015-02-01T08:04:58Z yenda: maybe that is not possible
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2015-02-01T08:10:43Z Grue`: it's probably possible with a custom written stream, but it's easier to preprocess your float sequence into a sequence of octets or characters
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2015-02-01T08:11:53Z yenda: I can do that
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2015-02-01T08:12:06Z yenda: but how do I turn a float into an octet ?
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2015-02-01T08:17:38Z Grue`: well, ieee-floats converts a float into integer and then you just have to convert integer to octets...
2015-02-01T08:18:09Z Grue`: something like https://github.com/frodef/binary-types
2015-02-01T08:19:02Z yenda: to convert you use coerce .
2015-02-01T08:19:03Z yenda: ?
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2015-02-01T08:23:24Z Grue`: there's no predefined way to encode a number into bytes
2015-02-01T08:24:03Z Grue`: use libraries like the ones i mentioned
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2015-02-01T08:29:51Z yenda: well (coerce my-integer '(unsigned-byte 8)) seems to work
2015-02-01T08:30:25Z Grue`: only if it's between 0 and 255
2015-02-01T08:34:40Z yenda: cool it's the case
2015-02-01T08:35:10Z hitecnologys: Well, then you don't really need to convert anything.
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2015-02-01T10:47:16Z cadadar: Why are some people writing their ASDF dependencies like depends-on (#:alexandria), others like  depends-on (:alexandria) and I've even seen depends-on (alexandria) ?
2015-02-01T10:47:44Z AeroNotix: cadadar: preference and the fact that it lets you do it.
2015-02-01T10:47:47Z jackdaniel wondered about same thing one time
2015-02-01T10:48:09Z jackdaniel: so there is no actual difference in evaluation?
2015-02-01T10:48:10Z AeroNotix: There's a quote somewhere about how any syntactically valid form something lets you have, will end up in your program at some point.
2015-02-01T10:48:15Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: I don't think so, at least.
2015-02-01T10:49:17Z cadadar: oh okay, thanks
2015-02-01T10:49:36Z jackdaniel built ecl for armv5 \o/
2015-02-01T10:49:49Z otwieracz: Doesn't # preevent from interning symbol into package?
2015-02-01T10:49:52Z Ralt: hasn't ecl development stopped?
2015-02-01T10:50:21Z jackdaniel: hmph, I'm planning to write to mailing list to gain access to git - I have at least few patches pending
2015-02-01T10:50:59Z Ralt: cool
2015-02-01T10:51:17Z Ralt: I remember reading something about the main dev looking for a maintainer or something
2015-02-01T10:51:22Z Ralt: my memory may fail me tho.
2015-02-01T10:51:35Z jackdaniel: yes, i would sign in, but im afraid im too green to do so ;p
2015-02-01T10:52:48Z Ralt: cadadar: I write my depends-on in strings
2015-02-01T10:53:48Z cadadar: Ralt: okay, another approach
2015-02-01T10:53:58Z Shinmera: #:foo generates a package-less symbol with name "FOO" so it won't be interned. Some people like to use #: where possible to avoid needless interning.
2015-02-01T10:54:57Z jackdaniel follows Xach's quickproject convention -- #:bar
2015-02-01T10:55:10Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: TIL
2015-02-01T10:55:28Z cadadar: otwieracz, Shinmera: I see
2015-02-01T10:55:36Z Shinmera: Colleen: do expand TIL
2015-02-01T10:55:36Z Colleen: TIL: Third-rate Idlest Looie
2015-02-01T10:57:10Z Ralt: today I learned
2015-02-01T10:57:20Z Ralt: ... in case it wasn't sarcasm
2015-02-01T10:58:18Z Shinmera: Using strings is alright in system forms since ASDF doesn't care about case for system names, but in packages using symbols should be preferred over strings due to read-case.
2015-02-01T10:58:38Z Shinmera: Though anyone that has a different read case is probably going to run into a world of problems anyway, so that's not really a good reason nowadays.
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2015-02-01T11:14:38Z pjb: taspat: The result of (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) is made of cons cells.  You can use a different function than cl:print to show off the dots.  Try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses (cons 1 (cons 2 3)))
2015-02-01T11:14:38Z minion: pjb, memo from emaczen: Thanks, although I decided to just use remove-if-not on the string since my needs were simple enough
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2015-02-01T11:36:43Z moore33: OT, but what the hell. Does anyone here have an emacs theme they especially like? I prefer dark text on a light background, but lately I'm finding that straight white/black is a bit tiresome on the eyes.
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2015-02-01T11:39:39Z Shinmera: spolsky from the sublime-themes package.
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2015-02-01T11:47:56Z moore33: Shinmera: Thanks for the pointer.
2015-02-01T11:48:16Z pjb: You can easily write a command to switch to random foreground and background colors.
2015-02-01T11:48:24Z Shinmera: That's a dark-background theme though.
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2015-02-01T11:48:51Z pjb: Also, changing the font can help.
2015-02-01T11:49:09Z yenda: I use solarized
2015-02-01T11:49:14Z wasamasa: ^
2015-02-01T11:49:16Z yenda: it has a dark and a light theme
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2015-02-01T12:06:51Z moore33: solarized looks like a good possibility.
2015-02-01T12:06:55Z moore33: Thanks all.
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2015-02-01T12:26:41Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2015-02-01T12:49:33Z drmeister: Hi nyef
2015-02-01T12:49:44Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online?
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2015-02-01T13:01:32Z xyh: are there any standard functions to process list of (:a 1 :b 2) (:a 8 :b 9) ... [such such]
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2015-02-01T13:07:11Z pjb: xyh: there are.
2015-02-01T13:08:17Z dlowe: xyh: look at getf
2015-02-01T13:08:36Z dlowe: you can also use destructuring-bind with a &key argument
2015-02-01T13:10:57Z beach: drmeister: Briefly.  I just had friends to visit, and I am wiped out, so I need to go rest.
2015-02-01T13:11:47Z drmeister: beach: I sent an email with the question.
2015-02-01T13:11:53Z drmeister: I'm digging it up
2015-02-01T13:12:08Z drmeister: Am I correct in reading the code, cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast tests if its argument is a top-level form and if it is and one of the special forms (progn, locally, macro let, symbol-macrolet) it treats its body as composed of top-level forms?
2015-02-01T13:13:06Z beach: That sounds right.  There is also a test for "which compiler".
2015-02-01T13:13:12Z drmeister: My question is relating to whether I have to do the top level form processing or if cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast does the top level form processing.
2015-02-01T13:13:27Z beach: Cleavir does it.
2015-02-01T13:13:36Z drmeister: Great!  Thank you.
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2015-02-01T13:13:40Z beach: And it calls cleavir-env:eval on the ones that have to be done at compile time.
2015-02-01T13:14:13Z drmeister: Thanks - that's all I need for now.
2015-02-01T13:14:31Z beach: Good.  You probably already have a method on cleavir-env:eval I would think.
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2015-02-01T13:20:06Z xyh: dlowe: thx, DESTRUCTURING-BIND looks like pattern-match
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2015-02-01T13:24:14Z dlowe: xyh: sort of. It decodes lambda lists, which is the format used by function parameters
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2015-02-01T13:48:16Z Ralt: hello
2015-02-01T13:48:26Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-02-01T13:48:51Z Ralt: is there a better way than this: (defun foo (bar baz) (destructuring-bind (&key boo baa) baz &body))
2015-02-01T13:48:52Z Ralt: ?
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2015-02-01T13:51:10Z Ralt: it seems that (defun foo (bar (&key boo baa)) &body) doesn't work...
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2015-02-01T13:52:31Z Shinmera: And how could it. Functions are not macros.
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2015-02-01T13:57:01Z Ralt: Shinmera: yup, I'm not bashing, just wondering
2015-02-01T13:57:24Z Shinmera: clhs 3.4.1
2015-02-01T13:57:24Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2015-02-01T13:57:30Z Ralt: hmmm
2015-02-01T13:57:35Z Ralt: maybe I could change the caller instead...
2015-02-01T13:58:06Z Ralt: I'll see what I can do
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2015-02-01T14:05:52Z Xach: pillton: did you see the remark on trivial-expand-type?
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2015-02-01T14:25:15Z vanila: hi all
2015-02-01T14:25:26Z vanila: does anyone have success stories building and running the latest git mezzano?
2015-02-01T14:25:51Z vanila: even with latest fix i haven't got it booting right yet
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2015-02-01T14:35:23Z nyef: vanila: Trying now.
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2015-02-01T14:41:53Z nyef: ... A little bit of noise, apparently it's very easy to render a .vmdk unusable to virtualbox by trying to recreate it. Had to delete vbox's idea of the drive and recreate it.
2015-02-01T14:42:29Z vanila: yeah ive had a lot of hassle with that, would rather use qemu since it's just a signle command line invocation but I think that requires xen
2015-02-01T14:42:49Z nyef: Okay, I have a system as functioning as ever I had one.
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2015-02-01T14:43:01Z nyef: Which is to say, there's a REPL window and it's in graphics mode.
2015-02-01T14:43:53Z vanila: lucky!@
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2015-02-01T14:44:06Z vanila: i just get a blank window - going to have to debug it further
2015-02-01T14:44:26Z vanila: with the repl or automatically i thinkt here's a way to copy al the stuff in through the file server and compile it - I havent got there yet
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2015-02-01T14:44:58Z nyef: I haven't even started digging into customizing it. I think that it probably can't even find the fileserver right now.
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2015-02-01T14:45:24Z hitecnologys: vanila: QEMU and Xen are not the same thing.
2015-02-01T14:45:42Z nyef: (I've been almost totally focused on Linux kernel hacking for about the past two weeks.)
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2015-02-01T14:47:33Z froggey: vanila: it should work in qemu without kvm, just a lot slower
2015-02-01T14:47:48Z vanila: ah!
2015-02-01T14:47:58Z froggey: and you should be seeing a repl, is there anything on the serial port?
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2015-02-01T14:49:06Z vanila: let me see..
2015-02-01T14:49:15Z vanila: i dont think it says anything beyond starting mezzano...
2015-02-01T14:50:07Z froggey: did you delete all the .llf files after grabbing the fix?
2015-02-01T14:51:08Z vanila: yeah that fix went from a reboot cycle to sitting at a blank screen, but I think it completed fixed it for other people
2015-02-01T14:51:42Z froggey: ok, how much memory are you giving it?
2015-02-01T14:52:47Z vanila: wait a sec, magic is happening
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2015-02-01T14:53:07Z vanila: getting lots of stuff on the serial port that i never saw before
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2015-02-01T14:54:04Z froggey: also you need to run qemu with -vga std
2015-02-01T14:54:27Z vanila: REPL! :D
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2015-02-01T14:54:34Z vanila: so happy to see that!
2015-02-01T14:54:35Z jackdaniel: (list 1 2 3)
2015-02-01T14:54:36Z jackdaniel: ;-)
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2015-02-01T14:55:13Z nyef: I typically use (+ 3 4) to test my REPLs, but that's a Smalltalk joke.
2015-02-01T14:55:31Z jackdaniel: nyef: elaborate please :)
2015-02-01T14:55:33Z vanila: http://i.imgur.com/cFPhllX.png
2015-02-01T14:57:54Z froggey: vanila: now you'll have to set up a home directory with all the required fonts & libraries, and point ipl.lisp at it
2015-02-01T14:58:39Z vanila: are there instructions to do that?
2015-02-01T14:58:48Z nyef: jackdaniel: It's a reference to a cartoon in one of the Smallktalk-80 books. The punchline is basically that if you get to the point that evaluating 3 + 4 returns 9 rather than a crazy error message or the VM just crashing hard, then the system works.
2015-02-01T14:59:46Z froggey: vanila: not yet :)
2015-02-01T14:59:49Z vanila: ok ^^
2015-02-01T14:59:50Z jackdaniel: thanks. sounds like "ha ha, but serious" jokes :)
2015-02-01T14:59:59Z vanila: ill writteup a good guide for beginners to get everything i have setup
2015-02-01T15:00:38Z nyef: On the other hand, I remember being at the point in SBCL/ARM where random math things came up with hilariously wrong answers for a while. And Krystof still remembers the same from a decade or more ago when he was working on the HPPA backend...
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2015-02-01T15:01:20Z nyef: It really was a case of "holy crap, we've got a working REPL... even if BIGNUMs are broken, this is still cool!"
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2015-02-01T15:02:44Z vanila: its very exciting!
2015-02-01T15:03:25Z froggey: I remembered that I made a video of mezzano running on real hardware a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFoUdxWLrl4
2015-02-01T15:03:32Z nyef: I'm at that point now with my Linux kernel hacking, in a way. "Holy crap, the network AND the SCSI controller work... for a few minutes, at least."
2015-02-01T15:03:52Z jackdaniel: what are you working on with kernel?
2015-02-01T15:05:20Z nyef: jackdaniel: I have an SGI Origin 350, and I'm trying to get it to run.
2015-02-01T15:05:58Z nyef: Well, I've BEEN trying to get it to run.
2015-02-01T15:06:13Z nyef: Right now I kindof need a break.
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2015-02-01T15:07:09Z kephra is still toying around with the questions of my own lisp like executor for o3db
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2015-02-01T15:10:59Z nyef: Looks like if I make an oversized vmdk then I can use vdfuse (from virtualbox-fuse) to get access to a "whole-disk" file, and from there I should be able to just dd the mezzano.image right in. Unmount, and the image should still work in vbox.
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2015-02-01T15:12:45Z vanila: what about using qemu-img or VBoxManage to convert from a .image to a vmdk?
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2015-02-01T15:13:08Z nyef: vanila: qemu-img at least seems to trash a GUID in the vmdk whenever that happens.
2015-02-01T15:13:15Z vanila: ah :[
2015-02-01T15:13:57Z vanila: froggey, Oh cool! I was thinking of booting it for real but I'd have to add USB support and I don't think im up to that..
2015-02-01T15:14:33Z vanila: its great that it can it do hat
2015-02-01T15:14:38Z nyef: I have no idea what vboxmanage would do...
2015-02-01T15:17:57Z froggey: VBoxManage seems to let you specify a UUID, that might be better
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2015-02-01T15:24:49Z nyef: ... A FREF is like SBCL's FDEFNs?
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2015-02-01T15:26:05Z froggey: I think they're quite similar, definitely inspired by
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2015-02-01T15:27:17Z nyef: Is the mezzano partition currently required to be a fixed size?
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2015-02-01T15:28:02Z froggey: they're a function name + function object + entry point address, used for calling via function name. ie (funcall #'(setf foo) ...) or (foo ...)
2015-02-01T15:28:29Z nyef: Sounds about right.
2015-02-01T15:28:56Z froggey: kind of. the disk image header has the mbr configured with fixed size, but there isn't anything else that requires a fixed size
2015-02-01T15:29:54Z froggey: I think it'd be better to seperate the bootloader partition from the disk header and have the cold generator build an appropriately sized MBR
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2015-02-01T15:38:28Z nyef: What's the difference between the pinned and wired areas?
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2015-02-01T15:40:31Z froggey: the wired area is fixed in virtual memory & physical memory and completely loaded by the bootloader, it's suitable for drivers and other low level things, while the pinned area is only fixed in virtual memory. it gets paged in on demand and could be paged out
2015-02-01T15:41:57Z nyef: How do you arrange for functions or data (especially from a FASL) to end up in the wired area?
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2015-02-01T15:45:04Z paul0: I'm trying to work on a remote image, not sure if I should ask here of in #emacs :)
2015-02-01T15:45:34Z froggey: the cold generator knows about specific fasls that need to be dumped into the wired area, and any code that needs to allocate from there has to do it explicitly. I've added an :area option to defstruct & make-array, and there are some declares for forcing the compiler to allocate closures in the wired area
2015-02-01T15:45:35Z paul0: I found swank:create-server, but slime-connect doesn't create an inferior lisp after connecting
2015-02-01T15:46:35Z nyef: Does the wired area typically include toplevel form functions, or whatever their equivalent are?
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2015-02-01T15:48:45Z froggey: yes, but only top level forms in fasls that the cold gen is putting there
2015-02-01T15:49:47Z froggey: there is a hack for dealing top-level defuns, these are identified and performed by at image build time for wired fasls
2015-02-01T15:50:21Z froggey: top level forms aren't actually executed until some time into the boot process
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2015-02-01T15:50:54Z nyef: Hunh. Well, that's a lot simpler than I was looking at with SBCL-OS.
2015-02-01T15:51:07Z nyef: I should have done that myself. /-:
2015-02-01T15:53:39Z froggey: it's not perfect, there are a bunch of functions that have to check that certain things have been initialized because they run before top-level forms
2015-02-01T15:53:53Z nyef: Yeah, that's fairly normal.
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2015-02-01T15:54:49Z nyef: Does wired space get GC'd, or is it treated as a source of permanent roots?
2015-02-01T15:57:05Z froggey: it gets GC'd. the cold gen puts enough free space in there that the system can boot without having to GC
2015-02-01T15:57:35Z nyef: Mark/sweep for that space?
2015-02-01T15:57:40Z froggey: yep
2015-02-01T15:57:41Z nyef: (That is, objects don't move?)
2015-02-01T15:57:52Z froggey: right, same as the pinned area
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2015-02-01T15:58:06Z nyef: Pinned objects get their own area?
2015-02-01T15:59:37Z froggey: yeah, pinning things after they'd been allocated seemed kind of hairy so they start pinned and stay that way until the GC frees them
2015-02-01T16:00:12Z froggey: iirc it's only functions and a few thread related objects that *need* to be pinned
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2015-02-01T16:00:35Z froggey: uh, pinned meaning non-copyable, in case I'm using the wrong term
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2015-02-01T16:00:58Z nyef: Yeah, pinned meaning fixed-in-place.
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2015-02-01T16:01:35Z nyef: SBCL's pin mechanism only works on gencgc (not cheneygc), and prevents the GC from moving or freeing the object (the pin counts as a reference).
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2015-02-01T16:34:39Z daniel___: hello mighty friends - hope you had a good day :) i am still struggling with some basics - i am trying to figuring out for hours, but i can't solve this: i am trying to generate a function call with variable key-arguments - the key-args are in a variable (defvar *args* '(:key1 "key")) and shall be placed in a function (apply #'(lambda (&rest args) (fn 'static-args args)) *args*)) - now here is the problem that the key-arguments are passed as 
2015-02-01T16:34:58Z nyef: clhs APPLY
2015-02-01T16:34:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2015-02-01T16:35:21Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-02-01T16:36:04Z yenda: do you have to declaim on every file of a package or does it apply for the whole ?
2015-02-01T16:36:11Z nyef: Wait, WHAT are you trying to do?
2015-02-01T16:36:28Z nyef: (apply fn 'static-args *args*), surely?
2015-02-01T16:36:54Z yenda: if I understand the hyperspec says that it's per file
2015-02-01T16:37:00Z nyef: yenda: "It depends."
2015-02-01T16:37:28Z nyef: yenda: IIRC, OPTIMIZE is per-file, but something like SPECIAL is global.
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2015-02-01T16:45:32Z daniel___: nyef:  it's a part of a database-query (peter seibel's db), the key-arguments are the column-specifier, so i have a query like '(:key1 "1" :key2 "2") and i want to pass them to a function like: (query-function *database* {here-key-args}) - with APPLY they will be inserted as list, with a macro they are inserted correctly, but i can't the macro to a arg-list... maybe i just don't see the obvious error anymore. i use the apply like this: (apply
2015-02-01T16:46:13Z nyef: daniel___: You're getting cut off due to the 254-or-so character limit for lines on IRC.
2015-02-01T16:46:27Z yenda: nyef: I am disappointed I don't see much improvement in speed, I wonder when it's usefull
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2015-02-01T16:53:58Z daniel___: nyef:  no, it was the end. but maybe not clear enough information to help me here. I just dont understand how to insert a argument-list "inline" in a function without using a macro.. ahhh - is there maybe the right way just to CONS the args together? :)
2015-02-01T16:58:00Z nyef: daniel___: APPLY always "spreads" its last argument, if you need to spread earlier ones then things get trickier.
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2015-02-01T16:58:53Z nyef: froggey: Where is the thread allocation and startup code? I'm having trouble finding it.
2015-02-01T16:59:27Z daniel___: nyef: okay, than that's my problem. i guess i need a workaround then... i tried (cons '(fn static-arg) '(:key "1")) gives me an even more unusable result..
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2015-02-01T17:00:36Z froggey: nyef: supervisor/thread.lisp make-thread and below
2015-02-01T17:01:55Z nyef: daniel___: Take a break for an hour or so, do something completely different, then come back to the problem from first principles. You very likely have confused yourself in trying anything that you could think of to get this to work, and need to reset your wetware a bit.
2015-02-01T17:01:59Z nyef: froggey: Thank you.
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2015-02-01T17:02:19Z nyef: Right, in a very obvious location that I simply didn't see. Of course.
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2015-02-01T17:06:01Z nyef: froggey: Are there per-thread nurseries, or is there inter-thread sync involved for all allocation?
2015-02-01T17:07:48Z froggey: not yet, the heap is completely global and threads must take the heap lock to allocate
2015-02-01T17:10:10Z daniel___: nyef: okay, i will. you are right - my brain is dizzy. by the way - i am really thankful for your help and also admire your willingness to help here (same to Xach and others of course). i am learning and coding alone all month long, and sometimes i just get stuck for half a day without external input. some problems are quite embarrasing afterwards and i am sorry i spammed you. well, see you later!
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2015-02-01T17:30:17Z nyef: froggey: Is there an address-space allocator separate from the object allocators?
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2015-02-01T17:36:49Z froggey: nyef: no, the address space is divided up statically
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2015-02-01T17:41:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've been using with-slots to access my slots instead of using an auto-generated accessor method, but I do to discourage accessing the slots outside of methods. Is that bad?
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2015-02-01T17:42:54Z nyef: Petit_Dejeuner: I usually consider slots to be "private" details to an object, and thus not part of the interface exposed to the rest of the world, but within that boundary I'll use (SETF SLOT-VALUE) or WITH-SLOTS if it seems appropriate.
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2015-02-01T17:44:08Z nyef: I also consider them to be a flag saying "hey, we're doing something clever, be careful here".
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2015-02-01T17:44:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Okay good, that's exactly how I've been thinking of them.
2015-02-01T17:44:55Z pjb: You may use with-accessors instead.
2015-02-01T17:45:41Z nyef: WITH-ACCESSORS only works if there ARE accessors.
2015-02-01T17:45:42Z pjb: or you may want to write your own macro, because both with-slot and with-accessors will access the slot at each occurence.
2015-02-01T17:45:50Z pjb: (you may want to use temp variables instead).
2015-02-01T17:46:04Z nyef: I'll occasionally define just a :READER and set the slot via (SETF SLOT-VALUE).
2015-02-01T17:46:11Z pjb: notably when using with-accessors with accessors that have side effects.
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2015-02-01T17:52:32Z nyef: froggey: Do the ROOM totals refer to total RAM available, or "just" committed address space?
2015-02-01T17:53:33Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-02-01T17:53:42Z nyef: Not sure how to express what I'm trying to figure out here.
2015-02-01T17:53:47Z froggey: only committed address space
2015-02-01T17:54:11Z nyef: Okay, so there could be a pile more RAM available for use as backing-store?
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2015-02-01T17:55:27Z froggey: right. currently it's limited to the free space on disk, so that there's always enough disk space to take a snapshot
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2015-02-01T17:57:31Z nyef: That would be the "15,491/65,280 store blocks used (23%)." bit? Pages of backing store?
2015-02-01T17:57:45Z froggey: yep
2015-02-01T17:58:13Z froggey: block size is 4k atm
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2015-02-01T17:58:25Z nyef: Is the backing store used for anything other than VM at this point?
2015-02-01T17:59:18Z froggey: no
2015-02-01T17:59:42Z nyef: Hrm... Okay.
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2015-02-01T18:00:01Z froggey: I'm not sure what else there would be
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2015-02-01T18:02:00Z froggey: there's some metadata (freelist and a map from virtual address to block numbers) along with the data
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2015-02-01T18:04:28Z nyef: ... Does your compiler do inlining?
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2015-02-01T18:07:24Z froggey: yes, for local functions and anything declared inline
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2015-02-01T18:10:15Z nyef: I think that I may need to do a bit of damage to the pager in order to better understand what's going on.
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2015-02-01T18:20:33Z Xach: where did i put my shit
2015-02-01T18:20:36Z Xach: err, wrong channel.
2015-02-01T18:20:51Z Xach has in fact misplaced said shit but that is no concern of #lisp
2015-02-01T18:21:31Z nyef: Any conversation starting from this point is likely to go down the toilet, fast!
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2015-02-01T18:22:34Z jackdaniel: huehueheu
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2015-02-01T18:30:33Z nyef: froggey: memref-unsigned-byte-64 takes a base address and an index in 64-bit words?
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2015-02-01T18:31:23Z froggey: yes, with the base address in bytes
2015-02-01T18:31:45Z nyef: Is it possible to do an unaligned access through some means?
2015-02-01T18:31:51Z froggey: memref-foo is like ((foo *)base)[index] in C
2015-02-01T18:31:53Z nyef: Other than by offsetting the base address, that is?
2015-02-01T18:31:57Z froggey: no
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2015-02-01T18:34:20Z nyef: And is "bm" something on the order of "block-map"?
2015-02-01T18:34:38Z froggey: exactly
2015-02-01T18:35:40Z froggey: 4 levels, like the x86-64 page tables
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2015-02-01T18:36:47Z nyef: I figured that much. Though I haven't actually hacked page tables since the 32-bit days.
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2015-02-01T18:47:48Z Fare: java is disgusting me more everyday. Amazing amount of engineering resulting in an amazingly mediocre everything.
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2015-02-01T18:49:11Z ejbs: Fare: Why're you using Java? Schadenfreude?
2015-02-01T18:49:33Z Fare: ejbs: $$$$
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2015-02-01T18:49:45Z Fare: but wondering if the $$$$ is worth it
2015-02-01T18:49:45Z cadadar: I know that feeling
2015-02-01T18:50:10Z Fare: if I can't convince the cow-orkers that there's a better way, I'm gonna have to quit.
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2015-02-01T18:50:30Z ejbs: I thought you were with ITA? Did I misremember?
2015-02-01T18:50:36Z Fare: I wrote this: http://fare.livejournal.com/183297.html
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2015-02-01T18:51:24Z ejbs: I read that, made me pretty pumped for a part 2
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2015-02-01T18:52:04Z Fare: ITA is no more. Been absorbed by Google. The reservation system I was working on is now dead. Only the small amount of opensourced parts remain — including my contributions to ASDF, and the libraries at http://common-lisp.net/project/qitab/
2015-02-01T18:52:36Z average: Fare: so what will you do considering this ?
2015-02-01T18:52:43Z average: I mena what can you do
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2015-02-01T18:53:34Z ejbs: Ah, I thought Google would let ITA do it's own thing still (that is, using Lisp)
2015-02-01T18:53:37Z Fare: I've moved to the Google build team, helping them implement a language, but I feel like they don't understand either language design or implementation.
2015-02-01T18:54:04Z Krystof: Fare: have you talked to jsnell about language design/implementation at Google?
2015-02-01T18:54:08Z Fare: ejbs: QPX is still alive and strong and in Lisp and powers google.com/flights/
2015-02-01T18:54:45Z Fare: Krystof, is he back there doing that?
2015-02-01T18:54:53Z Fare: I haven't talked to him in years!
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2015-02-01T18:57:52Z Fare: PLDI is kind of a dream job assignment, but doing it as the lone lisper in a team that thinks Java and Python are great is kind of hard.
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2015-02-01T18:58:15Z Fare: I need to ramp up my communication skills, seriously
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2015-02-01T18:58:38Z average: I have no idea why someone would work for Google
2015-02-01T18:58:40Z average: except for the money
2015-02-01T18:58:48Z average: Money is extremely good for any programmer in the world
2015-02-01T18:59:09Z average: but that's the only reason for having to experience the sort of pressure(I think) Google employees experience..
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2015-02-01T19:02:35Z jackdaniel: google embrancing another company/technology to turn it off.. hmm, what it reminds me
2015-02-01T19:02:38Z jackdaniel: ah, google, right
2015-02-01T19:02:42Z jackdaniel: it reminds me google
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2015-02-01T19:03:24Z nyef: froggey: In MAP-PHYSICAL-MEMORY, you use TRUNCATE to switch from SIZE to a number of pages to allocate.  Are the low bits of SIZE guaranteed to be zero, or is it okay that the last partial page doesn't get mapped?
2015-02-01T19:03:39Z nyef: Oh, scratch that, I see the ASSERT now.
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2015-02-01T19:08:27Z vanila: why sithere a weird dude squinting on your blog lol
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2015-02-01T19:13:27Z Fare: jackdaniel, well, actually, I don't blame them for cancelling the project, it was mismanaged; they ought to have either canceled it immediately or changed its management, instead of letting existing management continue for two more years.
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2015-02-01T19:14:53Z jackdaniel: Fare: hm, I don't know your situation. It just reminded me stories with embrancing xmpp and rss, and when userbase of their application grew, changing underlying protocol
2015-02-01T19:15:00Z Fare: See my rant at http://fare.livejournal.com/171998.html
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2015-02-01T19:15:44Z drmeister: Fare!  Hello
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2015-02-01T19:16:04Z drmeister: I was about to ask a general ASDF question.
2015-02-01T19:16:06Z olivierrr: relevant: http://youtu.be/HM1Zb3xmvMc
2015-02-01T19:16:41Z drmeister: Do source files read by ASDF have to have the ".lisp" extension or is ".lsp" ok?   I'm writing my first system.
2015-02-01T19:16:46Z Fare: jackdaniel: Google is constrained by its own cost-driven approach, mostly. If a project's revenues don't justify maintenance of its code facing exponential growth of the code base, hardware base and complexity, it will be cancelled.
2015-02-01T19:17:12Z Fare: drmeister, .lisp is the default, but there's a cl-source-file.lsp class to help you.
2015-02-01T19:17:47Z Fare: see the documentation, and if it's not clear, please suggest improvements after figuring it out from other people's working code.
2015-02-01T19:18:07Z Fare: I'm trying to no more maintain ASDF, except for embarrassing bugs.
2015-02-01T19:18:27Z Fare: insufficient documentation on obscure cases is not embarrassing me enough.
2015-02-01T19:18:39Z drmeister: No problem - understood.     It was a happy coincidence that you were on when I came to ask that question.
2015-02-01T19:18:55Z Fare: the new maintainer will be happy to get your code and documentation patches... did you send your asdf fixes upstream?
2015-02-01T19:19:27Z Cheery: interesting
2015-02-01T19:19:31Z drmeister: Not yet - too many things to do.
2015-02-01T19:19:39Z Fare: drmeister, no problem. I'm happy to tell anyone that it either already works or that I'm not likely to fix it (or that oops, I'm really sorry it's that bad)
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2015-02-01T19:19:57Z drmeister: ASDF is something I can ship with clasp so I've been lazy.
2015-02-01T19:20:10Z drmeister: I submitted changes for SLIME and Quicklisp.
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2015-02-01T19:20:18Z drmeister: Clasp supports SLIME and Quicklisp now.
2015-02-01T19:20:22Z Fare: yeah, well, please don't — people will want to upgrade eventually, and you really want your fixes in by then.
2015-02-01T19:20:27Z Fare: congrats!
2015-02-01T19:20:33Z Fare: how is the speed issue?
2015-02-01T19:20:37Z jackdaniel: Fare: I usually find your rants really insightful
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2015-02-01T19:20:49Z Fare: last you told me, it was 70x too slow, but that was months ago
2015-02-01T19:21:04Z Fare: jackdaniel, glad at least someone likes them
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2015-02-01T19:22:22Z Cheery: I improved keybindings of my editor today.. then proceed to write an invaders clone in it.
2015-02-01T19:22:34Z drmeister: I give up - I'll switch to .lisp extensions.    I got the .lsp habit from ECL
2015-02-01T19:22:43Z Cheery: screenshot from how it looks like: http://i.imgur.com/KeiDbAJ.png
2015-02-01T19:22:46Z drmeister: I guess it goes back to MS-DOS
2015-02-01T19:22:56Z Cheery: http://i.imgur.com/y7xIYfa.png
2015-02-01T19:23:51Z drmeister: Cheery: Is that some kind of weird non-lisp language?
2015-02-01T19:24:04Z jackdaniel: should it land in #python?
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2015-02-01T19:24:47Z Cheery: probably not. the white parts are editable text, the remaining is encoded as structures.
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2015-02-01T19:25:00Z drmeister: Fare: I'm integrating Cleavir now.
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2015-02-01T19:25:36Z ejbs: Cheery: Have you seen Projectured?
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2015-02-01T19:26:16Z Cheery: yup. but if there's specific thing about projectured that would be interesting.
2015-02-01T19:26:22Z Fare: drmeister, is Cleavir in a working state these days?
2015-02-01T19:26:43Z Fare: how far / fast did you get with LLVM ?
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2015-02-01T19:28:00Z drmeister: beach is working on it.  It generates intermediate representations of the code that are pretty straightforward to convert to LLVM-IR - that's what I'm working on - that translation.
2015-02-01T19:28:14Z Cheery: ejbs: last time checked into projectured, it is about slightly different perspective
2015-02-01T19:28:43Z drmeister: far/fast with LLVM?  What I have is all LLVM and it's at least a 100x slower than SBCL because I don't use stack based variables/registers.  Cleavir fixes that.
2015-02-01T19:29:15Z Cheery: ejbs: projectured seem to be concentrating on projections from representations into others. they are bidirectional
2015-02-01T19:29:55Z Cheery: ejbs: my system works on tree structures that are compiled or layouted, depending on what's being done on them
2015-02-01T19:30:28Z Cheery: ejbs: but there's no translation from the visual boxlayout into the tree. Editing operations directly affect the tree
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2015-02-01T19:30:53Z ejbs: Cheery: Alright, cool.
2015-02-01T19:31:15Z Fare: drmeister, I'm not super familiar with either llvm or cleavir — what makes it easier to achieve these results with cleavir? And will you keep both cleavir and LLVM so as to get the C++ access?
2015-02-01T19:31:34Z Fare: or does cleavir itself have an llvm backend?
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2015-02-01T19:32:36Z Fare: is cleavir in the SICL git?
2015-02-01T19:32:45Z drmeister: Fare: Cleavir compiles S-expressions into an intermediate representation that includes escape analysis, it figures out what 99% of the variables can be on the stack and the 1% that can be on the heap in closures.
2015-02-01T19:33:00Z drmeister: Currently, 100% of my variables are in closures on the heap.
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2015-02-01T19:34:09Z drmeister: LLVM optimizations do not examine the heap - so my code runs very slow.   It essentially ignores the cache and the registers.   Imagine running code that works like code in the 80's, every fetch and store goes straight to DRAM.
2015-02-01T19:34:22Z nyef: froggey: If I've been monkeying with supervisor code, how much of the system do I have to rebuild to get a usable image?
2015-02-01T19:34:34Z Cheery: ejbs: that the editing overall works at all, every symbol on the screen must appear in the same order as they appear in the structure
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2015-02-01T19:34:54Z Cheery: ejbs: otherwise the layouting is open-ended.
2015-02-01T19:35:25Z drmeister: I will retain the C++ interoperation using Cleavir - Cleavir gives me more efficient code that uses the stack and registers a lot more.  LLVM will then optimize stack accesses and convert them to register accesses.
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2015-02-01T19:36:31Z Cheery: ejbs: advantage to python, the host language of this thing, is extensible semantics/layouting
2015-02-01T19:37:03Z Cheery: well there's some others that could possibly help out.
2015-02-01T19:37:18Z Fare: is froggey around?
2015-02-01T19:37:24Z Cheery: it's easier to parse and read than LR(1) in general.
2015-02-01T19:37:47Z Fare: drmeister, so you're reusing the analysis part of Cleavir, and still using LLVM as a backend?
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2015-02-01T19:38:04Z froggey: nyef: depends on what you've changed. you can probably get away with just rerunning make-image, it'll rebuild any out of date files
2015-02-01T19:38:31Z nyef: So I should start keeping my build environment running?
2015-02-01T19:38:43Z froggey: yeah
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2015-02-01T19:39:28Z froggey: Fare: I am, hi
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2015-02-01T19:41:08Z Fare: froggey, congratulations for your lispos
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2015-02-01T19:43:21Z froggey: thanks :)
2015-02-01T19:44:22Z Fare: can you write about your experiences at some time, even if briefly or in telegraphic style?
2015-02-01T19:44:41Z Fare: like big DONE and TODO files
2015-02-01T19:44:52Z Fare: and WOW and WTF files
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2015-02-01T19:46:30Z froggey: I'm not sure what you mean
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2015-02-01T19:47:13Z nyef: REPL still works, I must not have broken the pager with my changes. (-:
2015-02-01T19:47:57Z drmeister: Fare: Yes, I'm combining the analysis part of Cleavir with LLVM as the backend.
2015-02-01T19:48:30Z drmeister: Fare: I'm writing an LLVM backend for Cleavir but I'm afraid it will be Clasp specific because it relies on Clasp's C++ interoperation with LLVM.
2015-02-01T19:49:28Z drmeister: Any other Cleavir/LLVM approach would need to write an FFI interface to the C API of LLVM (C APIs are always behind the C++ API, they are the bastard children of C++ projects).
2015-02-01T19:49:29Z froggey: Fare: I've taken a whole bunch of screenshots while developing, something like that?
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2015-02-01T19:50:28Z ejbs: froggey: yes please
2015-02-01T19:50:32Z froggey: nyef: that's good, just getting to the repl will stress the pager a lot
2015-02-01T19:50:43Z yenda: I reads lispos, I'm interested
2015-02-01T19:50:49Z yenda: * read
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2015-02-01T19:51:34Z yenda: does it have a repos ?
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2015-02-01T19:52:06Z froggey: yenda: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2015-02-01T19:52:21Z Ralt: Shinmera: I was wondering, do you think you could have some function to import ui files made using qtcreator?
2015-02-01T19:52:33Z Ralt: in qtools
2015-02-01T19:52:39Z Fare: froggey, something like what were the surprisingly hard or easy parts, what are the stumbling blocks, what did you learn, etc.
2015-02-01T19:52:45Z Shinmera: Afaik CommonQt doesn't support qtcreator files.
2015-02-01T19:53:02Z Fare: how high is the cliff below and above
2015-02-01T19:53:12Z Ralt: ah.
2015-02-01T19:53:28Z Ralt: AeroNotix: did you get the ui-file-loading working?
2015-02-01T19:53:44Z Shinmera: I haven't used qtcreator myself either, so I can't say if it'd be possible to write something that compiles it to code.
2015-02-01T19:53:50Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: it works
2015-02-01T19:54:17Z Shinmera: Well then, good
2015-02-01T19:54:21Z Ralt: AeroNotix: got some code?
2015-02-01T19:54:23Z AeroNotix: you need to (require-smoke :uitools) and then use the "same" code that QUiLoader uses in the docs.
2015-02-01T19:54:25Z AeroNotix: Ralt: Nope.
2015-02-01T19:54:28Z Ralt: k
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2015-02-01T19:55:04Z Shinmera: It's not qt:require-smoke it's qt:ensure-smoke.
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2015-02-01T19:57:30Z Ralt: oh, the C++ code is not very hard
2015-02-01T19:58:05Z Ralt: (I was missing the "uitools" keyword.)
2015-02-01T19:58:30Z Shinmera: Ralt: Also, I don't think I pinged you, or if you saw it, but there's a new Qtools version that implements the new syntax.
2015-02-01T19:58:52Z Ralt: Shinmera: ah! You didn't ping me, indeed. Nice!
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2015-02-01T20:02:16Z jackdaniel: Fare: just seen this (regarding my google opinion) https://medium.com/message/never-trust-a-corporation-to-do-a-librarys-job-f58db4673351?repost=HN2
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2015-02-01T20:22:38Z nyef: froggey: Are BYTE specifiers EQL-comparable?
2015-02-01T20:23:07Z nyef: (That is, can I use them in DEFCONSTANT?)
2015-02-01T20:24:20Z froggey: no, they're structs
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2015-02-01T20:24:35Z nyef: Ah, danm.
2015-02-01T20:24:39Z nyef: Err. Damn.
2015-02-01T20:24:59Z nyef: More functions it is, then.
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2015-02-01T20:33:20Z cadadar: Does anyone know of a library macro 'with-temporary-directory' ? I'm thinking of a macro similar to uiop/stream:with-temporary-file - it should take care of creating a temp dir with whatever name (located in the standard temp dir, I'd say), execute the body and clean up the whole dir no matter whether the body executes with or without errors
2015-02-01T20:33:46Z cadadar: I guess UIOP has all the ingredients to roll my own naive implementation but I don't want to reinvent the wheel
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2015-02-01T20:40:51Z ejbs: cadadar: Roll your own and try to get it into UIOP?
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2015-02-01T20:49:47Z Xach: cadadar: I have something like that in commando, but it's for sbcl only.
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2015-02-01T20:53:23Z cadadar: I found a patch adding a macro like that to 'osicat' (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.osicat.devel/39) but it seems like it never made it into the lib...
2015-02-01T20:53:23Z cadadar: ejbs: I'd love to contribute in case I end up with a solution I'm satisfied with :)
2015-02-01T20:53:23Z cadadar: Xach: Thanks, but I'm trying to stay as implementation-independent as possible
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2015-02-01T21:16:26Z Xach preferred something that existed on one implementation to something that didn't exist on every implementation
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2015-02-01T21:31:36Z Bahman: s/every/any/
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2015-02-01T21:39:04Z Fare: jackdaniel, I have no comment.
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2015-02-01T22:53:12Z axion: i believe 'every' is indeed the correct term in this instance
2015-02-01T22:53:28Z axion: otherwise there would be no contrast in his statement
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2015-02-01T23:03:15Z nyef: axion: No, the contrast is between one and not-more-than-zero.
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2015-02-01T23:08:03Z nyef: froggey: The block-map is basically a page-table but for the backing-store?
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2015-02-01T23:25:02Z pillton: Xach: Yes I saw the remark. Damn Bike. Stealing my thunder.
2015-02-01T23:25:18Z froggey: nyef: right
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2015-02-01T23:27:20Z Bike: pillton: is that referring to my introspect-environment thing? if you know how to do typexpand on something other than sbcl and ccl that'd be useful
2015-02-01T23:28:20Z pillton: Bike: Yeah. I went through all the free implementations.
2015-02-01T23:28:35Z pillton: Bike: I didn't do TYPEXPAND-1 thought since not all implementations support it.
2015-02-01T23:28:46Z Bike: bummer
2015-02-01T23:29:48Z Bike: well, i did find a way to do it on ccl
2015-02-01T23:29:52Z pillton: I'd rather merge the stuff with yours then start a new project. I was under the assumption that I was in fertile land.
2015-02-01T23:30:12Z Bike: i was surprised it didn't already exist when i put mine up, really
2015-02-01T23:30:30Z pillton: I am surprised it isn't part of the standard.
2015-02-01T23:30:44Z Bike: CL types are underspecified imo
2015-02-01T23:30:57Z Bike: my code has junk like https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment/blob/master/ccl.lisp#L51-L86 to make other not very used things work, unfortunately
2015-02-01T23:31:23Z nyef: froggey: And is there any supplemental documentation on how all of this works, or should I be taking notes?
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2015-02-01T23:31:41Z vanila: please take notes :)
2015-02-01T23:32:21Z pillton: Bike: I saw that stuff. I wanted to talk to you about it to see where you wanted to go with it.
2015-02-01T23:32:35Z pillton: Bike: I haven't fully read your code.
2015-02-01T23:32:51Z nyef: froggey: And, final question before I head down for dinner, would you say that part of why GC is so intrusive is that it has to page in a pile of stuff each time?
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2015-02-01T23:33:29Z Bike: well, that particular one is due to a bug in ccl, which is presently languishing in their trac. for the rest, ideally implementations would just export/support things like this that they already do, so that i don't have to use sb-int
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2015-02-01T23:33:58Z Bike: if anyone actually uses the stuff i'd probably just cater to them i suppose
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2015-02-01T23:35:59Z pillton: Bike: This library I am writing at the moment has stuff like WITHOUT-COMPILER-MACROS and some other stuff. It is probably worth putting this in your project too.
2015-02-01T23:37:00Z Bike: originally it was part of a thing for messing with compiler macros, but i realized it might be better to separate it out. in my mind it's pretty minimal. i originally called it "trivial-cltl2" or something but then i added a few more introspection things that weren't in cltl2.
2015-02-01T23:37:10Z froggey: nyef: takes notes, this will be on the test. the first time the GC runs after booting is when it pulls a bunch of stuff in from the disk, subsequent GCs only operate on in-memory things. the only page faults being serviced then will be for zero pages
2015-02-01T23:37:50Z pillton: Bike: That was my impression of the quick glance I had yesterday. That is why I wanted to speak to you.
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2015-02-01T23:39:03Z froggey: I'm going soon, so I might not respond until tomorrow
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2015-02-01T23:40:41Z Bike: well, right now it has the cltl2 environments interface, plus tiny wrappers around them, compiler-macroexpand, parse-compiler-macro, typexpand, constant-form-value, and some helpers for policy. and specialp which i added because beach's stories make me sad sometimes. i'm open to adding stuff if you have a pull request or however that works.
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2015-02-01T23:43:46Z nyef: froggey: Okay, I'll try to write up what I've figured out thus far.
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2015-02-01T23:45:42Z pillton: Bike: Sounds good. I will send a pull request with the TYPEXPAND functionality for the other implementations.
2015-02-01T23:47:04Z pillton: Xach: There is no need to add the project. I will work with Bike.
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2015-02-01T23:48:02Z pillton has to get to work.
2015-02-01T23:48:23Z nyef: Hrm. Looks like a good chunk of the runtime is simply the scope of the problem, but then there's a spate of paging activity at the end.
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