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2015-01-22T00:30:44Z dim: hey CL lovers, wanna give some popularity to your favorite programming language? check out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8924270
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2015-01-22T00:31:30Z dim: pgloader has made it to the home page it seems, Lisp is prominently displayed, and the main website for pgloader is down under the load or something so that I had to come up with a mirror ;-)
2015-01-22T00:31:35Z dim: http://dimitri.github.io/pgloader/ is the mirror btw
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2015-01-22T00:32:33Z Zhivago: Does pg stand for Paul Graham?
2015-01-22T00:33:22Z copec: ^ https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader
2015-01-22T00:33:36Z copec: I don't think so.
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2015-01-22T00:36:31Z dim: PostgreSQL
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2015-01-22T00:55:48Z jasom: also ligatures don't appear to render correctly
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2015-01-22T01:18:37Z xyh: the name-bindings made by the <form> of HANDLER-CASE, can not be used in its <case> ?
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2015-01-22T01:19:35Z nyef: Umm... HANDLER-CASE doesn't bind any names, does it?
2015-01-22T01:20:25Z Xach: xyh: i don't have a link. try searching for: drew mcdermott ytools
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2015-01-22T01:32:28Z dim: I didn't quite expect PostgreSQL+Common-Lisp to be the source of a slashdot effect ;-) I guess the CL community is still alive and well despite all we can read about it
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2015-01-22T01:46:09Z akkad: dim: is your site hosted on CL? :P
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2015-01-22T02:00:50Z Xach: dim: it's news whenever lisp is used for something practical
2015-01-22T02:01:07Z Xach: who knew?
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2015-01-22T02:21:36Z xyh: I have added :prefix & :postfix support to CAT,
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2015-01-22T02:22:50Z xyh: I will add :indent support too.
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2015-01-22T02:23:40Z pjb: xyh: there's no name bound by handler-case or handler-bind but there's still modification of the dynamic environment.
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2015-01-22T02:27:42Z michaniskin: hi! i'm curious why arguments to macros are not macroexpanded before being passed to the macro procedure?
2015-01-22T02:28:25Z Zhivago: So that the macro can expand them as it sees fit?
2015-01-22T02:28:41Z michaniskin: this seems like a natural symmetry with eval, which evaluates arguments before applying
2015-01-22T02:29:02Z Zhivago: Not at all -- consider (my-macro I like to get drunk and code)
2015-01-22T02:29:06Z michaniskin: i couldn't find anything about this written anywhere
2015-01-22T02:29:16Z michaniskin: ok
2015-01-22T02:29:23Z Zhivago: If I like to get drunk and code were macro-expanded, then your macro couldn't handle that case itself.
2015-01-22T02:29:42Z michaniskin: what do you mean by "that case"?
2015-01-22T02:29:48Z Zhivago: If it wants them macro-expanded, just include them in the output of the macro, which will then be macro-expanded.
2015-01-22T02:29:57Z michaniskin: the symbols I like to get... presumably have meaning
2015-01-22T02:30:11Z Zhivago: Yes, they're potentially meaningful to that macro.
2015-01-22T02:30:21Z michaniskin: meaning that is impossible to determine at macroexpand time
2015-01-22T02:30:30Z Zhivago: That does not follow.
2015-01-22T02:30:35Z michaniskin: how so?
2015-01-22T02:30:42Z Zhivago: They're meaningful _to that macro_.
2015-01-22T02:30:50Z michaniskin: the symbol I refers to something in the environment, no?
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2015-01-22T02:31:03Z Zhivago: No. It is the symbol I.
2015-01-22T02:31:24Z Zhivago: That might be used as a name, or something else, but the symbol is its own identify.
2015-01-22T02:31:28Z Zhivago: er, identity.
2015-01-22T02:31:56Z michaniskin: if not you'd quote it
2015-01-22T02:31:56Z michaniskin: or use a keyword
2015-01-22T02:31:56Z michaniskin: etc
2015-01-22T02:32:11Z Zhivago: Quoting is to protect against evaluation.
2015-01-22T02:32:28Z Zhivago: You're not evaluating here -- you're translating.
2015-01-22T02:32:48Z michaniskin: that something could be a macro
2015-01-22T02:32:48Z michaniskin: so operating on I means you have another evaluator inside of lisp
2015-01-22T02:32:50Z Zhivago: The macro translates itself to a language that does not include the macro.
2015-01-22T02:32:53Z michaniskin: in your macro
2015-01-22T02:32:54Z michaniskin: i don't see the benefit
2015-01-22T02:32:54Z michaniskin: how is a symbol better than a keyword in that case?
2015-01-22T02:32:54Z michaniskin: or a string
2015-01-22T02:32:54Z michaniskin: or anything else that isn't a symbol but can be distinguished from other things?
2015-01-22T02:32:59Z Zhivago: What?
2015-01-22T02:33:14Z Zhivago: A keyword is a symbol.
2015-01-22T02:33:21Z michaniskin: maybe if there were an example of such a macro
2015-01-22T02:33:23Z Zhivago: And you can use strings if you like.
2015-01-22T02:33:30Z Zhivago: But you were asking about symbols.
2015-01-22T02:33:54Z Zhivago: Do you know what a compiler is?
2015-01-22T02:33:59Z michaniskin: i do
2015-01-22T02:34:08Z Zhivago: A macro is a compiler.
2015-01-22T02:34:23Z michaniskin: i don't think i agree, but continue
2015-01-22T02:34:41Z michaniskin: in my understanding a macro is a semantic transformation
2015-01-22T02:35:01Z michaniskin: syntactic
2015-01-22T02:35:13Z michaniskin: like define-syntax in scheme
2015-01-22T02:35:25Z Zhivago: From one language to another. Thus a compiler.
2015-01-22T02:35:33Z michaniskin: why from one language to another?
2015-01-22T02:35:53Z michaniskin: what's wrong with lisp?
2015-01-22T02:36:42Z Zhivago: Macroexpansion translates from the language with macros, to the language without macros ...
2015-01-22T02:36:47Z Zhivago: Do you follow?
2015-01-22T02:37:03Z michaniskin: perhaps an example would be helpful:
2015-01-22T02:37:25Z xyh: michaniskin: for design new syntax by SEXP, for example ::
2015-01-22T02:37:43Z xyh: (ensure <form1> ==> <form2>)
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2015-01-22T02:38:09Z Zhivago: (defmacro delay (&rest expression) `(lambda () ,@rest))
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2015-01-22T02:38:33Z Zhivago: (delay (+ 1 2)) is valid in the language extended by that macro.
2015-01-22T02:38:36Z michaniskin: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GszPGjqB
2015-01-22T02:38:52Z Zhivago: Expanding the macro gives you (lambda () (+ 1 2)) in the language without that macro.
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2015-01-22T02:39:13Z michaniskin: my point is that this seems like a dumb thing to do, because i just wrote a crippled evaluator inside of lisp
2015-01-22T02:39:56Z michaniskin: the delay macro would would fine if rest were macroexpanded before delay got it
2015-01-22T02:39:56Z Zhivago: What does an evaluator have to do with macros?
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2015-01-22T02:40:06Z michaniskin: because it doesn't care what rest IS
2015-01-22T02:40:14Z michaniskin: it just rearranges the expression
2015-01-22T02:40:15Z Zhivago: The delay macro is fine, since what it produces is subsequently macro-expanded.
2015-01-22T02:40:45Z michaniskin: my point is that if the macro doesn't care what rest IS then it doesn't hurt if rest is already macroexpanded, no?
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2015-01-22T02:40:55Z michaniskin: when the macro procedure gets it
2015-01-22T02:40:55Z Zhivago: And if it _does_ care?
2015-01-22T02:41:04Z michaniskin: then i think you have something like what i pasted
2015-01-22T02:41:12Z michaniskin: which seems to me like a misguided thing
2015-01-22T02:41:13Z Zhivago: Both cases are fine as is, because of the subsequent macro-expansion.
2015-01-22T02:41:23Z Zhivago: It's broken in the system that you propose.
2015-01-22T02:41:28Z Zhivago: Think it through.
2015-01-22T02:41:32Z michaniskin: i know that
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2015-01-22T02:41:57Z michaniskin: what i am saying is that i don't see why it's bad for that to be broken in the system i propose
2015-01-22T02:42:03Z michaniskin: because that's a terrible way to program
2015-01-22T02:42:19Z michaniskin: basically i wrote part of the lisp eval in that macro
2015-01-22T02:42:25Z michaniskin: but a really dumb eval
2015-01-22T02:42:34Z Zhivago: Why did you do something stupid like that?
2015-01-22T02:42:59Z michaniskin: it was an example of a macro that cares what its argument is without first macroexpanding it
2015-01-22T02:43:09Z michaniskin: i guess my thesis is this:
2015-01-22T02:43:31Z Zhivago: It's really simple.
2015-01-22T02:43:31Z michaniskin: "if a macro cares about the value of its arguments, then it should macroexpand them before walking them"
2015-01-22T02:43:42Z Zhivago: The macro passes through unchanged the bits it doesn't care about.
2015-01-22T02:43:49Z Zhivago: Which are then post-expanded.
2015-01-22T02:43:56Z Zhivago: Avoiding your problem entirely.
2015-01-22T02:44:05Z michaniskin: i realize this, i'm familiar with macros
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2015-01-22T02:44:40Z Zhivago: If the macro cares about the macro-expanded form of its arguments, then it should code-walk, seems to be your argument.
2015-01-22T02:45:01Z michaniskin: ok, consider the foo macro above
2015-01-22T02:45:12Z michaniskin: i don't think macros like that are useful
2015-01-22T02:45:20Z Zhivago: Then why produce it as an example?
2015-01-22T02:46:02Z michaniskin: because those are the kind of macros that are broken when arguments are macroexpanded before they get them
2015-01-22T02:46:19Z michaniskin: only the dumb macros get broken
2015-01-22T02:46:24Z Zhivago: Think about loop ...
2015-01-22T02:46:25Z michaniskin: the rest are unaffected
2015-01-22T02:46:58Z Zhivago: Think about anything that introduces macrolets ...
2015-01-22T02:47:42Z michaniskin: you mean CL loop?
2015-01-22T02:49:12Z Zhivago: Sure.
2015-01-22T02:49:29Z michaniskin: haha i'm not a fan of it
2015-01-22T02:49:32Z michaniskin: no offense
2015-01-22T02:49:39Z Zhivago: I don't care.
2015-01-22T02:49:50Z Zhivago: What you are a fan of is completely irrelevant.
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2015-01-22T02:51:54Z Zhivago: All you need to grasp is that prematurely expanding the arguments to a macro prevents the macro from defining its own sublanguage.
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2015-01-22T02:52:08Z michaniskin: this is a good thing
2015-01-22T02:52:13Z Zhivago: And that everything you get from premature expansion you get for free by post-expansion.
2015-01-22T02:53:14Z michaniskin: i just see the problems caused by "sublanguages"
2015-01-22T02:53:37Z michaniskin: in clojure there's an initiative to introduce feature expressions like common lisp
2015-01-22T02:53:52Z michaniskin: basically a preprocessor pass
2015-01-22T02:54:24Z michaniskin: the reason you want things like that is mainly because of macros that introduce sublanguages
2015-01-22T02:54:33Z Zhivago: That's what macros do.
2015-01-22T02:54:53Z michaniskin: ok dude
2015-01-22T02:55:12Z michaniskin: you can do that
2015-01-22T02:55:19Z michaniskin: just like you can do any number of things
2015-01-22T02:55:25Z michaniskin: but that doesn't mean it's smart
2015-01-22T02:55:59Z Zhivago: Do you have a point?
2015-01-22T02:56:12Z michaniskin: i'm highly skeptical of the claim that other languages are needed when you have lisp already
2015-01-22T02:56:26Z michaniskin: i have yet to see a compelling example
2015-01-22T02:56:29Z Zhivago: They're not needed -- you can do everything in machine code directly.
2015-01-22T02:56:41Z Zhivago: That's a completely retarded argument; try again.
2015-01-22T02:57:10Z michaniskin: wow, you're a dickhead
2015-01-22T02:57:15Z michaniskin: see ya
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2015-01-22T02:59:15Z Zhivago: That's the level of critical reasoning I've come to expect from you. :)
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2015-01-22T03:09:47Z xyh: Xach: I see that ytools' OUT is trying to convert FORMAT's syntax to SEXP, and merging arguments into a format.
2015-01-22T03:11:15Z xyh: while using CAT, you can choose to merging in or not.
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2015-01-22T03:24:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-22T03:25:27Z Bike_ is now known as Bike
2015-01-22T03:25:36Z beach: ries: Still around?
2015-01-22T03:26:24Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-01-22T03:26:46Z beach: Hey nyef!  What are you working on these days?
2015-01-22T03:27:08Z nyef: Still hacking away at the Linux kernel, trying to get a usable MIPS system.
2015-01-22T03:27:41Z nyef: I think I may finally have the PCI configuration somewhat sorted, but still no IRQs.
2015-01-22T03:27:56Z nyef: Figured out a possible reason WHY no IRQs, though, so that's an improvement.
2015-01-22T03:28:38Z beach: I guess you are good at that kind of low-level stuff.
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2015-01-22T03:29:12Z nyef: I made a career of it for a few years, so yeah.
2015-01-22T03:31:16Z xyh: https://gist.github.com/xieyuheng/f22e1a53653acf761c9c
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2015-01-22T03:31:58Z beach: xyh: I prefer you stop just posting random URLs.  That's spammer behavior.  At least say a few words regarding what the URL is about.
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2015-01-22T03:36:16Z beach: ries: If you are still listening, I am surprised only dlowe mentioned Clasp and only very briefly.  Clasp was designed to make C++ code available from Common Lisp, so LibreCAD seems to be a perfect use case for it.  I suggest you talk to drmeister about it.
2015-01-22T03:42:04Z beach: Hmm [reading the LibreCAD Features page].  What is the main use for a 2D CAD program?
2015-01-22T03:44:05Z pjb: People still make plans.
2015-01-22T03:44:19Z pjb: Sounds strange yes :-)
2015-01-22T03:44:27Z beach: Oh, right, like house drawings.  I guess so, yes.
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2015-01-22T04:34:09Z xyh: FORMAT using up very much memory!! why ?
2015-01-22T04:37:58Z Zhivago: Probably to print things.
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2015-01-22T04:45:46Z xyh: I remember someone just had warned me, FORMAT will use much memory.
2015-01-22T04:46:49Z beach: xyh: Don't believe everything you are told.
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2015-01-22T04:53:17Z emaczen: is there a utility function for splitting a string in common lisp?
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2015-01-22T04:56:35Z beach: emaczen: There is a library called split-sequence.
2015-01-22T04:57:16Z beach: emaczen: You can install it using Quicklisp.
2015-01-22T04:58:47Z emaczen: beach: okay
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2015-01-22T05:00:40Z emaczen: beach: how would I efficiently do this for strings though out of curiosity?
2015-01-22T05:00:55Z beach: In case you didn't have the library?
2015-01-22T05:01:00Z emaczen: in general, what is a quick way to iterate over each character that makes up the string?
2015-01-22T05:01:15Z emaczen: beach: Yes, I'm trying to learn more of the details in common lisp
2015-01-22T05:01:19Z beach: (loop for char across string ...)
2015-01-22T05:01:34Z emaczen: beach: is loop built on top of do?
2015-01-22T05:01:38Z beach: No
2015-01-22T05:02:00Z emaczen: What are the pros and cons of do and loop?
2015-01-22T05:02:16Z beach: LOOP is readable, DO is not. :)
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2015-01-22T05:02:43Z emaczen: hahaa yeah... I just wrote a DO form...
2015-01-22T05:02:52Z emaczen: beach: what about in terms of efficiency?
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2015-01-22T05:02:59Z emaczen: I can see that they are both macros
2015-01-22T05:03:13Z beach: Shouldn't be a difference.  They both turn into TAGBODY and GO.
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2015-01-22T05:07:55Z emaczen: beach: interesting, also out of curiosity which CL implementation do you use and would you recommend for performance?
2015-01-22T05:08:44Z emaczen: I am interested in multithreaded big-dataish applications (I know clojure is pretty much made for the parallel world)
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2015-01-22T05:08:50Z beach: emaczen: I use SBCL.  I hear it is one of the best when it comes to performance, but I haven't really compared them all.
2015-01-22T05:09:27Z zRecursive: The pattern match is helpful to decrease the code size. Yeah, there is cl-match. Is it worthy merging it into CL standard ?
2015-01-22T05:09:35Z Zhivago: multithreading isn't going to get you very far with big-data.
2015-01-22T05:10:39Z beach: zRecursive: Why did you suddenly mention the standard?
2015-01-22T05:10:49Z ahungry: Have there been any attempts to compile sbcl to asm.js/emcscripten using clang/llvm?  I hear they are doing it with C++ 3d games to get near native performance (well, 2x as slow but still good for being in a browser)
2015-01-22T05:11:12Z ahungry: How cool would it be to have an sbcl.js that could load real .lisp files and execute as if it were native
2015-01-22T05:11:27Z ahungry: Would make CL available on all mobiles as well
2015-01-22T05:12:03Z emaczen: ahungry: what is the performance comparison of a compiled CL program to a Java one?
2015-01-22T05:12:06Z beach: ahungry: Clasp uses the C++ LLVM interface to generate code.
2015-01-22T05:12:35Z emaczen: ahungry: I'm looking for general answers (I know there are any implementation of CL)
2015-01-22T05:13:00Z beach: emaczen: Don't know about Java, but if you put in as many declarations as you would put into a C program, you can get very similar performance.
2015-01-22T05:13:16Z beach: emaczen: Talking about SBCL now.
2015-01-22T05:13:21Z emaczen: beach: what do you mean by declarations? type annotations?
2015-01-22T05:13:59Z beach: emaczen: They are not called annotations.  They are called declarations.  And yes, type declarations, and OPTIMIZE declarations.
2015-01-22T05:14:42Z emaczen: Will CL throw compile time type errors if you use them?
2015-01-22T05:14:47Z emaczen: I mean SBCL?
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2015-01-22T05:14:56Z beach: emaczen: Please read the papers by Didier Verna.  They are very well written.  He shows how to get things like floating-point performance to the same level as C.
2015-01-22T05:15:14Z beach: emaczen: What do you mean?
2015-01-22T05:15:50Z emaczen: are declarations just type hints?
2015-01-22T05:15:53Z beach: emaczen: If you use a high safety level, then SBCL will signal an error if you violate a type declarations.
2015-01-22T05:16:07Z emaczen: beach: That's amazing!
2015-01-22T05:16:42Z beach: emaczen: If you have a low safety level, in some cases at least, the compiler will trust you.  That is sometimes necessary to do in order to get the same performance as C, because that is what C does.
2015-01-22T05:16:50Z drmeister: Hey beach!
2015-01-22T05:17:01Z beach: drmeister: Hey.
2015-01-22T05:17:14Z beach: drmeister: You should definitely talk to ries about LibreCAD.
2015-01-22T05:17:14Z drmeister: I'm running Cleavir again.
2015-01-22T05:17:22Z emaczen: beach: thanks for the informative answers! I can't wait to immerse myself further into the lagnguage :)
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2015-01-22T05:18:01Z beach: emaczen: Pleasure.
2015-01-22T05:18:51Z beach: drmeister: LibreCAD is a C++ application, and ries is contemplating how to make it possible to integrate Lisp into it.
2015-01-22T05:19:09Z beach: drmeister: Sounds like a perfect match for Clasp.
2015-01-22T05:19:18Z drmeister: I'm just looking at it.
2015-01-22T05:19:23Z drmeister: They want a scripting language?
2015-01-22T05:19:32Z beach: He didn't say.
2015-01-22T05:19:41Z beach: That's why you two should talk. :)
2015-01-22T05:19:41Z jasom: any suggested lisp tools for basic typesetting other than cl-typesetting?
2015-01-22T05:20:04Z jasom: or should I just (uiop:run-program ("pdflatex" ...)))
2015-01-22T05:20:10Z drmeister: jasom: Hi!  I brought clasp up to date with the llvm ToT a few days ago.
2015-01-22T05:20:16Z jasom: drmeister: sweet!
2015-01-22T05:20:39Z drmeister: It wasn't as bad as I thought.  They haven't gone crazy with C++ move semantics.
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2015-01-22T05:20:54Z jasom: C++ move semantics are fairly straightforward
2015-01-22T05:21:02Z drmeister: But yeah, the changes to the class hierarchy that you warned me about were pretty serious.
2015-01-22T05:21:07Z jasom: though I've been using rust on-and-off for a while
2015-01-22T05:21:26Z drmeister: They are great for C++, they are terrible for interoperation between C++ and other languages.
2015-01-22T05:21:52Z drmeister: Terrible may be too strong a word.  Let's say they complicate things.
2015-01-22T05:23:54Z drmeister: I also added a local GO and local RETURN-FROM to clasp that speed up clasp on linux by at least a factor of 2.
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2015-01-22T05:26:49Z zRecursive: beach: because i'am studying cl-match now
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2015-01-22T05:29:48Z beach: zRecursive: There is roughly 0 probability the there will ever be a new standard, and if that should be the case, the probability is very small that cl-match will be part of it.  So take two very small numbers and multiply them and you get something vanishingly small.
2015-01-22T05:30:00Z ahungry: hi drmeister - clasp looks awesome, thanks for your work on it (compiling it now)
2015-01-22T05:30:29Z drmeister: ahungry: Cool - thanks.   Check out the irc channel #clasp
2015-01-22T05:30:32Z emaczen: how can I see a macro definition in the REPL
2015-01-22T05:30:32Z ahungry: Do you know if anyone has attempted to compile it with emscripten to run it in a web browser yet?
2015-01-22T05:30:55Z zRecursive: beach: oh
2015-01-22T05:31:00Z drmeister: I should have a new release in a couple of days that supports ASDF, SLIME and Quicklisp and is considerably faster than the current version on Linux.
2015-01-22T05:31:01Z beach: emaczen: See?
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2015-01-22T05:31:30Z drmeister: ahungry: No - I don't think anyone has tried.  If they did, they haven't told me about it.
2015-01-22T05:31:43Z emaczen: beach: What is see?
2015-01-22T05:31:47Z ahungry: Ok, well, that's what I'll be doing tonight, I'll let you know if I succeed
2015-01-22T05:31:56Z beach: emaczen: There is no standard way of getting the source code of a defined macro.  You would have to look at the ... source code.  Is that what you mean?
2015-01-22T05:32:15Z emaczen: beach: what is macroexpand and macroexpand-1
2015-01-22T05:32:21Z beach: emaczen: You said "see a macro definition".
2015-01-22T05:32:30Z emaczen: beach: yes -- it's late lol
2015-01-22T05:32:38Z beach: emaczen: They take a form and apply the macro to it.
2015-01-22T05:33:08Z beach: emaczen: But that is not the source code of the macro.  That is the result of applying the macro expander to a form.
2015-01-22T05:33:49Z drmeister: beach: I think ries is away from his keyboard.  I opened a chat with him.
2015-01-22T05:33:49Z beach: emaczen: For fun, try (macroexpand-1 '(loop for i from 0 to 10 do (print i)))
2015-01-22T05:34:01Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, I think you are right.
2015-01-22T05:34:17Z beach: drmeister: I tried to get him in #librecad, but there is silence.
2015-01-22T05:34:36Z drmeister: beach: I'm running cleavir again on my code to generate HIR to get back into that.
2015-01-22T05:34:42Z emaczen: what is the equivalent of (if (progn ...) (else-form))
2015-01-22T05:34:48Z beach: drmeister: Excellent.
2015-01-22T05:35:11Z beach: emaczen: "equivalent" in terms of what?
2015-01-22T05:35:35Z drmeister: Would you expect this to switch packages: (eval-when (eval compile load) (core:select-package :core))
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2015-01-22T05:35:42Z emaczen: I'm looking for the equivalent of if else in other languages
2015-01-22T05:35:58Z beach: emaczen: (if <test> <then-form> <else-form>)
2015-01-22T05:36:01Z emaczen: with (if .. don't you only get one s-expr
2015-01-22T05:36:07Z drmeister: When I pass that form to (cleavir-generate-ast:generate ast) followed by (cleavir-ast-to-hir:compile-toplevel) ?
2015-01-22T05:36:14Z emaczen: beach: how do you get more expressions?
2015-01-22T05:36:43Z beach: emaczen: PROGN is one way.  It evaluates sequentially and returns the value(s) of the last form.
2015-01-22T05:37:11Z beach: emaczen: So PROGN is one way of turning a sequence of forms into a single form.
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2015-01-22T05:39:36Z jasom: drmeister: yeah pretty much every language except C likes to pretend that it's the only language you're using
2015-01-22T05:40:03Z beach: emaczen: Does that answer your question?
2015-01-22T05:40:40Z jasom: ahungry: it's unlikely to be possible to compile any of the kcl derivitives in emscripten
2015-01-22T05:41:17Z emaczen: beach: yes, thank you -- I did (if (progn ...) (else-form))
2015-01-22T05:41:26Z beach: emaczen: No test?
2015-01-22T05:41:35Z emaczen: beach: yes I did do a test
2015-01-22T05:42:03Z beach: emaczen: (if (> x 10) (progn (print "yes") (print "indeed")) (progn (print "no") (print "not at all")))
2015-01-22T05:42:27Z emaczen: thanks again for all the help beach. I'm signing off
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2015-01-22T05:42:49Z beach: Yeah, me too.  Time to get to work!
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2015-01-22T05:45:51Z jasom: aha! cl-typesetting works "good enough" if I only use a font size of 12pts.  I think it applies the font-scale twice since smaller sizes are over-kerned and larger sizes are spaced way out
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2015-01-22T06:04:03Z zRecursive: Why isnot slime in ELPA ?
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2015-01-22T06:17:44Z jasom: zRecursive: probably because slime and swank need to match versions
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2015-01-22T06:19:21Z zRecursive: jasom: i will install it manually now
2015-01-22T06:21:06Z pillton: zRecursive: I get slime using the quicklisp-slime-helper system in Quicklisp. It updates every time the Quicklisp distribution updates.
2015-01-22T06:21:36Z jasom: zRecursive: +1 for quicklisp-slime-helper
2015-01-22T06:27:01Z zRecursive: pillton: great!
2015-01-22T06:29:50Z pillton: You just need to add (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) to your .emacs file.
2015-01-22T06:30:42Z pillton wonders if there should be quicklisp-paredit-helper too.
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2015-01-22T06:31:02Z zRecursive: thanks
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2015-01-22T07:11:48Z zRecursive: `echo $HOME` => d:\Z, but why does quicklisp install slime-helper into c:/Documents and Settings/***/ ?
2015-01-22T07:12:36Z Shinmera: because it uses USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME, which may not rely on $HOME, I guess.
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2015-01-22T07:13:31Z zRecursive: `echo $USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME` => nothing
2015-01-22T07:13:39Z Shinmera: that's a CL function...
2015-01-22T07:13:56Z Shinmera: clhs user-homedir-pathname
2015-01-22T07:13:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_user_h.htm
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2015-01-22T07:15:08Z zRecursive: (USER-HOMEDIR-PATHNAME) => #P"C:/Documents and Settings/***/", it indeed doesnot care the HOME value.
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2015-01-22T07:15:48Z Shinmera: SBCL does at least https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TWpZMw==
2015-01-22T07:17:21Z Shinmera: I remember getting things to work by using a batch file on windows and doing 'set HOME', but I don't know what exactly you're doing.
2015-01-22T07:18:25Z zRecursive: The HOME is set globally here
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2015-01-22T07:52:43Z yuqian: If I want to make a active page using lisp (like using PHP), do you have any good advice?
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2015-01-22T07:53:26Z H4ns: yuqian: you can look at hunchentoot and cl-who
2015-01-22T07:53:42Z jasom: yuqian: hunchentoot and cl-who is the quickest way to get started certainly
2015-01-22T07:54:00Z jasom: there are also a half-dozen templating engines for lisp if you don't want to use cl-who
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2015-01-22T07:55:30Z jasom: http://clacklisp.org/ is another decent one
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2015-01-22T07:58:29Z yuqian: en, the syntax of CommonLisp is not so clear. I'll have a look at your advices. Thanks a lot.
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2015-01-22T07:59:32Z mrkkrp: Is there some library to pick random element of a sequence, where every element has its own weight? Or, it would be even better if I could pass a vector of numbers, where every number represents a weight, and get index of selected element as a result...
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2015-01-22T08:00:39Z mrkkrp: of course it can be done from scratch...
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2015-01-22T09:37:10Z mrkkrp: how does LENGTH work on vectors? Does it just lookup some value, or it has to iterate over all elements of a vector?
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2015-01-22T09:40:16Z H4ns: why would it be called vector if it really were a list?
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2015-01-22T09:43:09Z mrkkrp: what do you mean? you have to iterate over a list to find out its length, you have to do the same to find out how many elements is in a vector in C for example. I mean actual elements, not how much memory allocated. So if vector is null terminated, you have to iterate over it.
2015-01-22T09:44:02Z H4ns: ok - from the perspective of the stupidness of c strings, your question makes sense.
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2015-01-22T09:44:13Z mrkkrp: but that's C string, if you deal with Pascal strings, there is a value that directly tells you length of the string
2015-01-22T09:44:23Z H4ns: all proper languages have that :)
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2015-01-22T09:44:47Z mrkkrp: thanks, I just didn't know if it's part of the standard
2015-01-22T09:44:47Z H4ns: in common lisp, you can have an "adjustable array" that has both an allocation size and a (possibly smaller) fill pointer
2015-01-22T09:45:01Z H4ns: a good way to find out what the standard contains is study it.
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2015-01-22T09:47:03Z mrkkrp: H4ns, ok, I understand, next time I will read it instead of asking here.
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2015-01-22T10:10:20Z Zhivago: This is one area where stl did very well - specifying the time complexity of stl items.
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2015-01-22T10:14:45Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, what do you think about non-ASCII unicode names in source code?
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2015-01-22T10:15:34Z Zhivago: I'm fine with them.
2015-01-22T10:15:59Z Zhivago: Why do you ask?
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2015-01-22T10:18:18Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, Maybe you had a nuanced opinion on them and I remain undecided.
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2015-01-22T10:21:27Z Zhivago: Did you see how fortress handled it?
2015-01-22T10:22:24Z Zhivago: They had a restricted markup approach displayed by an intelligent editor.
2015-01-22T10:23:02Z Quadrescence: Yes I remember their multiple representations.
2015-01-22T10:23:05Z Zhivago: Kind of overkill, imho, but I can see the reasoning that lead to it.
2015-01-22T10:23:45Z Zhivago: Given symbol macros and the like synonym establishment shouldn't be hard.
2015-01-22T10:26:25Z Zhivago: These days I use cursive inout by preference, and that allows the direct input of random scripts well.
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2015-01-22T10:27:02Z Zhivago: e.g., I can enter any chinese character I can see.
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2015-01-22T10:30:26Z jasom: hmmm, any downside to using (find-package :swank) to tell if I'm running in a debug environment or not?
2015-01-22T10:30:55Z jasom: I gues I could use (member :swank *features*) instead
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2015-01-22T10:33:36Z jdz: jasom: what, you don't have swank in production?
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2015-01-22T10:42:07Z Quadrescence: jasom learned his lesson when he submitted his 25 MB CAT(1) program to Debian and it included Swank so anyone could do on-line runtime debugging of the program.
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2015-01-22T10:51:15Z hlavaty: dim: mssql requires freetds, how do you package deps (libs) e.g. on windows?  what other libs does pgloader depends on?
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2015-01-22T11:00:15Z dim: hlavaty: openssl comes to mind, other than that I try and avoid depending on system libs (for convenience and memory management purposes)
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2015-01-22T11:00:30Z dim: I'm yet to consider packaging pgloader for windows
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2015-01-22T11:01:34Z dim: I'm told that you can just place the .dll files needed by the main .exe in the same directory and be done, as if LD_LIBRARY_PATH always began with .:
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2015-01-22T11:04:43Z hlavaty: dim: do you work on it fulltime?
2015-01-22T11:08:52Z p_l: dim: you can definitely modify CFFI's search path
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2015-01-22T11:16:54Z dim: hlavaty: not fulltime no, far from that, but in a professional capacity indeed
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2015-01-22T11:24:07Z quazimodo: anyone playing with movitz lately?
2015-01-22T11:25:39Z quazimodo: pjb: you back yet?
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2015-01-22T11:29:27Z Cymew: quazimodo: Not lately, no. Are you?
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2015-01-22T11:32:47Z quazimodo: Cymew: not really, just curious about it
2015-01-22T11:32:54Z quazimodo: it seems like... a lot of work
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2015-01-22T11:34:42Z dim: movitz-on-kvm or movitz-on-{docker,vagrant} would be nice to have, ala ErlangOnXen
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2015-01-22T11:36:01Z quazimodo: idno?
2015-01-22T11:36:08Z quazimodo: <- not a comp sci nerd
2015-01-22T11:36:56Z quazimodo: wish I was that smart, honestly
2015-01-22T11:37:01Z quazimodo: I've never even written a basic kernel
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2015-01-22T11:53:17Z Cymew: Me neither, which made movitz an interesting environment, since I didn't have to think about the language
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2015-01-22T12:17:09Z Cymew: I fooled around with filesystems using movtiz and it was most enlightening
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2015-01-22T13:48:34Z Emre`: Why do they say that learning Lisp (or Haskell) makes you a better programmer? They never give specifics to this argument.
2015-01-22T13:50:04Z Zhivago: It gives a distinct perspective.
2015-01-22T13:50:26Z Zhivago: You should also learn prolog.
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2015-01-22T14:05:30Z Emre`: Zhivago: what do you mean by that
2015-01-22T14:07:35Z Shinmera: Working with a different set of tools pushes you towards finding different ways of solving problems.
2015-01-22T14:08:02Z Shinmera: Thus acquiring a new perspective on problem solving. The experience gained from this is beneficial overall, regardless of the constraints you're given.
2015-01-22T14:09:06Z Shinmera: Therefore: Learning Lisp will improve your abilities as a programmer overall, regardless of the language you'll be using, given that you are willing to embrace the new perspective, rather than trying to force your existing one onto the set of tools Lisp offers.
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2015-01-22T14:10:30Z tsumetai: The main benefit I derived from lisp-like languages is the realization that programming can actually be fun. And code can be beautiful.
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2015-01-22T14:34:40Z fjolsvidr: Which Lisp to focus on right now? Clojure?
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2015-01-22T14:34:47Z dlowe: Common Lisp.
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2015-01-22T14:35:24Z dlowe: If you ask #clojure, I bet you'll get Clojure as an answer.
2015-01-22T14:35:39Z dlowe: If you ask #scheme, they'll tell you that Scheme is the best.
2015-01-22T14:36:09Z chu: If you ask #emacs, they'll tell you elisp is the answer? :p
2015-01-22T14:36:09Z dlowe: if you ask #emacs, you'll find out that you can do anything you really need with elisp
2015-01-22T14:36:24Z chu: :)
2015-01-22T14:37:16Z fjolsvidr: I thought this was more of a Lisp channel rather than CLisp
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2015-01-22T14:37:48Z hlavaty: clisp is a common lisp implementation, http://www.clisp.org/
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2015-01-22T14:38:25Z dlowe: fjolsvidr: Yeah, this is a common lisp channel. The generic lisp channel is ##lisp
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2015-01-22T14:41:04Z xyh: any ccl users? I meet the following error when compiling the source, any ideas ?
2015-01-22T14:41:04Z xyh: ;Compiling "/home/xyh/lang/lisp/ccl/ccl/lib/compile-ccl.lisp"... || Read error between positions 17853 and 18603 in /home/xyh/lang/lisp/ccl/ccl/lib/compile-ccl.lisp. || > Error: Foreign variable "EX_OSERR" not found
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2015-01-22T14:47:26Z hlavaty: xyh: ask #ccl
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2015-01-22T15:45:17Z nyef: G'morning all
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2015-01-22T15:50:42Z Fade: heya, nyef
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2015-01-22T15:57:30Z gangil: Hi, I am facing issues with the iterate package listed on the clisp website
2015-01-22T15:57:52Z gangil: when I try to load the package in sbcl
2015-01-22T15:57:58Z gangil: I get the following error
2015-01-22T15:57:59Z gangil: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10039B67E3}>:   COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "iterate" "iterate">
2015-01-22T15:58:01Z dlowe: gangil: a common lisp website or the actual clisp.org?
2015-01-22T15:58:22Z gangil: dlowe: I downloaded it from ehre
2015-01-22T15:58:22Z gangil: http://www.cliki.net/iterate
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2015-01-22T15:58:29Z gangil: *here
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2015-01-22T15:59:01Z dlowe: CL is a better abbreviation for common lisp. Clisp is confusing
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2015-01-22T15:59:43Z dlowe: gangil: from the "adsf-install" link?
2015-01-22T15:59:48Z gangil: yes
2015-01-22T16:00:02Z gangil: clicking that link downloads iterate-current.tar.gz
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2015-01-22T16:00:10Z gangil: which is iterate version 1.4.3
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2015-01-22T16:00:32Z dlowe: so does it tell you what the error is?
2015-01-22T16:01:05Z gangil: It just gives me this error message
2015-01-22T16:01:06Z gangil: #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {10039B67E3}>:   COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "iterate" "iterate">
2015-01-22T16:01:09Z dlowe: gangil: also, what version of sbcl?
2015-01-22T16:01:26Z gangil: 1.2.3.debian
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2015-01-22T16:01:37Z dlowe: hm. that's not too bad.
2015-01-22T16:01:55Z dlowe: how are you loading it?
2015-01-22T16:02:09Z gangil: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'iterate)
2015-01-22T16:03:32Z dlowe: I'm afraid I don't know what the problem is. Sorry.
2015-01-22T16:03:57Z nyef: "Have you considered trying to install it via quicklisp instead of manually?"
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2015-01-22T16:04:51Z gangil: nyef: I can try that, but wont quicklisp also source iterate from the same location?
2015-01-22T16:05:00Z gangil: http://www.cliki.net/iterate
2015-01-22T16:05:09Z dlowe: no, it has its own repository
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2015-01-22T16:05:41Z dlowe: I mean, it eventually sources it from the project page
2015-01-22T16:05:44Z nyef: Even if it's the same version, it has a better chance of dealing with any possible dependency issues and whatnot.
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2015-01-22T16:07:02Z gangil: thanks!
2015-01-22T16:07:06Z gangil: I will give it a shot
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2015-01-22T16:07:25Z gangil: though getting a link to a stable iterate package would have been much less work
2015-01-22T16:09:48Z pjb: jasom: C also likes to predent that it's the only language you're using: no care for lisp heaps! Even Fortran COMMONs or arrays are difficult to deal with C!
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2015-01-22T16:46:40Z gangil: hi dlowe nyef I still get the same error
2015-01-22T16:46:53Z gangil: when I try to load the iterate package via quicklisp
2015-01-22T16:47:06Z Xach: if you downloaded it and asdf can find it, it will use that version
2015-01-22T16:47:12Z jasom: gangil: do you still have the .tgz you downloaded installed where asdf can find it?
2015-01-22T16:47:22Z gangil: yes
2015-01-22T16:47:45Z gangil: I can delete the tgz and try again
2015-01-22T16:48:34Z jasom: not the .tgz but wherever you untarred it
2015-01-22T16:48:37Z Xach: not just the tgz, but the directory with the .asd
2015-01-22T16:48:43Z gangil: yes
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2015-01-22T16:52:33Z gangil: jasom: Xach it worked
2015-01-22T16:52:35Z gangil: thanks! :)
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2015-01-22T17:02:27Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-01-22T17:02:32Z Oladon: Morning beach
2015-01-22T17:02:33Z z0d: hi
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2015-01-22T17:03:24Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-01-22T17:05:23Z beach: Consider the following definition of POSITION: http://metamodular.com/position.lisp
2015-01-22T17:06:00Z beach: It is horribly inefficient because it makes tests in the inner loop that are invariant.
2015-01-22T17:06:16Z beach: On the other hand, it is easy to test.
2015-01-22T17:06:56Z beach: I think I can turn the intermediate (HIR) code of that program into one where the loops are duplicated for each invariant test.
2015-01-22T17:07:16Z beach: ... by using an automatic rewriting technique.
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2015-01-22T17:09:17Z ggole: beach: this is usually called loop unswitching
2015-01-22T17:09:33Z beach: ggole: Ah, OK.  Thanks.
2015-01-22T17:09:59Z beach: ggole: Any reference?
2015-01-22T17:10:12Z beach: I guess I'll search for it myself.
2015-01-22T17:10:17Z ggole: Not off the top of my head...
2015-01-22T17:10:22Z ggole: It could be in Muchnick
2015-01-22T17:10:34Z beach: I don't think so.  I would have seen it.
2015-01-22T17:10:35Z ggole: (Because most things are in Muchnick.)
2015-01-22T17:11:52Z beach: Not in Muchnick as far as I can see.
2015-01-22T17:12:59Z ggole: Unswitching, page 588
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2015-01-22T17:13:20Z ggole: Might be a different edition though.
2015-01-22T17:13:34Z beach: Right you are.  Thanks!
2015-01-22T17:13:59Z ggole: Hmm, doesn't really go into any depth
2015-01-22T17:14:09Z beach: Very skimpy on what techniques to use.
2015-01-22T17:14:10Z beach: Yeah.
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2015-01-22T17:14:34Z beach: I'll read up on what they do.
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2015-01-22T17:15:38Z beach: I can use the same technique as I use to omit multiple tests in things like (let ((x (car list)) (y (cdr list))) ...) where there would be two CONSP and two NULL tests in general.
2015-01-22T17:17:10Z beach: Since I know a lot about rewriting techniques, I started gathering papers on what other optimizations can be done with rewriting techniques.
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2015-01-22T17:19:28Z ggole: What technique is that?
2015-01-22T17:19:44Z beach: Local rewriting.
2015-01-22T17:19:49Z ggole: (I would usually expect some flavour of numbering to cover such cases.)
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2015-01-22T17:20:30Z beach: Basically move the test up by interchanging it with its predecessors.
2015-01-22T17:20:38Z beach: It's a bit more involved but not much.
2015-01-22T17:21:07Z beach: ... and duplicating the predecessors in each branch of course.
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2015-01-22T17:21:15Z beach: That's how the loop gets duplicated.
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2015-01-22T17:21:47Z ggole: Ah, right
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2015-01-22T17:23:41Z beach: I also have a colleague who is a world expert on rewriting techniques.  I am hoping that we could figure something out together, including checking whether rewriting has been used for loop unswitching in the past.
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2015-01-22T17:26:53Z beach: By doing it on HIR, I can do the following: Consider an implementation with the following (simplified) definition of AREF: (defun aref (vector i) (cond ((typep vector 'simple-bit-vector) ....) ... ((typep vector 'simple-string) ...)) ...)
2015-01-22T17:27:21Z beach: I can allow for the HIR version of AREF to be inlined in POSITION, and then apply the unswitching.
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2015-01-22T17:27:46Z shka: hi all
2015-01-22T17:27:57Z beach: Hello shka.
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2015-01-22T17:30:08Z beach: OK, I just popped in to share my excitement.  Now I need to go fix dinner.
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2015-01-22T18:17:47Z taspat: sofware engineering or computer science? :)
2015-01-22T18:18:30Z taspat: can't decide what to choose for the last 3 semesters
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2015-01-22T18:19:54Z oGMo: taspat: CS is quite a lot more interesting in the long run, even if the classes are boring
2015-01-22T18:20:19Z oGMo: most of the valuable software engineering stuff you don't get until you actually do it, anyway
2015-01-22T18:22:10Z oGMo: if you want to write a website is lisp, software engineering; if you want to write a lisp, CS
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2015-01-22T18:22:42Z nyef: If you want to make a business using lisp, drop out. d-:
2015-01-22T18:22:43Z taspat: :)
2015-01-22T18:23:02Z nyef: (Don't take my advice on that, really.)
2015-01-22T18:23:05Z oGMo: yeah, you probably won't actually be using lisp, but analogies here
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2015-01-22T18:24:54Z jasom: taspat: take the one that is better at your university
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2015-01-22T18:25:29Z jasom: a good SE department is better than a bad CS department and vice versa
2015-01-22T18:26:22Z jasom: but in general, I would prefer CS as it's a more academic discipline, and universities tend to be better at academic disciplines
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2015-01-22T18:38:42Z adlai: the question (for me) is whether dropping *in* is worth it
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2015-01-22T18:52:12Z nyef: adlai: I used to want to go to university, but these days I'm fairly well convinced it's not worth my time or money. I certainly can't see putting up with three or four years of crap to get a BS degree.
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2015-01-22T18:55:43Z Adlai: nyef: thank you for the contrarian opinion!
2015-01-22T18:59:24Z nyef: Besides, I'd rather spend my time hacking on things than studying. I get to go at my own pace, and have better control over what to study.
2015-01-22T19:00:38Z Adlai: don't let schooling interfere with your eddication!
2015-01-22T19:01:11Z Shinmera: nyef: Hearing this is somewhat reassuring; I'm currently in uni and struggling by quite a bit to study, I don't really know if it's a thing for me. I'm just afraid I won't have good chances at getting a job without some form of degree.
2015-01-22T19:01:24Z Adlai: problems begin when interesting topics are difficult to learn independently
2015-01-22T19:01:48Z nyef: Adlai: Like quantum physics?
2015-01-22T19:02:52Z Adlai: that, and the weird soup of fields between organic chemistry, molecular biology, bioinformatics
2015-01-22T19:03:39Z nyef: Adlai: If anything, I'd want to have someone who I can turn to for an explanation and an idea of what to look at next, rather than being spoon-fed the information.
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2015-01-22T19:05:18Z Adlai is still on the lookout for programs that sidestep the BS (what an apt acronym...)
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2015-01-22T19:16:25Z PuercoPop: nyef: but studying always alone is harder then learning with someone and discussing the difficulties encouraged and how each overcame them (It still beats the soul sucking experience of University IME)
2015-01-22T19:16:51Z nyef: Okay, that's fair enough.
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2015-01-22T19:18:07Z jasom: nyef: the cool thing is that a good advisor at a university will do that, and most students never go talk to them, so it's  easy to schedule time
2015-01-22T19:18:36Z dlowe: If you go to university, it's important to use as many of its services as you possibly can, or you're getting ripped off
2015-01-22T19:18:56Z jasom: I started in physics and this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Overhauser was my advisor.  He knew more about solid state physics than I ever will know about any field.
2015-01-22T19:19:05Z nyef: I don't even want to think about how many of the "students" at a university these days aren't there because they want to learn.
2015-01-22T19:19:18Z Adlai notes: consult with graduates of a program before enrolling in it, find out what resources are available
2015-01-22T19:19:37Z jasom: Adlai: most of them won't know, because most of them didn't use them
2015-01-22T19:19:49Z Adlai: then i find another graduate to consult
2015-01-22T19:19:53Z jasom: yeah
2015-01-22T19:19:57Z dlowe: A lot of hackers also dismiss the non-technical classes as being "fluff," which is very wrong-headed.
2015-01-22T19:20:18Z jasom: dlowe: this is partly because a lot of engineering schools have sub-par non-technical departments
2015-01-22T19:20:26Z dlowe: jasom: I'll buy that.
2015-01-22T19:20:49Z dlowe: but exposure to a lot of different kinds of ideas is one of the life-improving perks of going.
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2015-01-22T19:21:17Z jasom: e.g. I went to Purdue, and thought all liberal arts majors were idiots, but then I visited Indiana University (which is the state school to which all the smart kids who wanted to do liberal arts went)
2015-01-22T19:22:10Z jasom: and none of the mandatory liberal arts classes I took were taught by professors
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2015-01-22T19:26:43Z jasom: nyef: quantum physics isn't too hard to learn on your own if you have a solid grounding in linear algebra and differential equations; just ask a physics professor to recommend a textbook
2015-01-22T19:27:09Z jasom: there are some really good textbooks on that topic (but you'll be paying over $100 a piece)
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2015-01-22T19:28:15Z nyef: My linalg is largely limited to what I needed to learn for 3d wireframe rendering back when I was in my teens, and my differential equations is even weaker. No wonder I have trouble with it.
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2015-01-22T19:29:47Z jasom is trying to remember if vector calc comes up a lot in quantum; it's used quite heavily in classical electromagnetism.
2015-01-22T19:31:00Z Bicyclidine: in the path integral formulation, at least, i think
2015-01-22T19:31:45Z Bicyclidine: maybe in QFT for the same reasons it does in electromagnetics...
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2015-01-22T19:32:19Z jasom got 3 years into a physics BS and then burned out
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2015-01-22T19:32:43Z Bicyclidine: might go from vector calc to differential algebra for GR reasons, plus that's what electromagnetics does sometimes
2015-01-22T19:33:31Z nyef: I really would prefer now that back when I was in my early teens I knew how completely amazing calculus was, and where to find the hardbound copy of The Feynman Lectures that I had access to at the time.
2015-01-22T19:34:06Z Bicyclidine: UC put the lectures online for free, it's nice
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2015-01-22T19:37:50Z Adlai: what do i need to destroy in order for swank::*swank-wire-protocol-version* to update itself? it's stuck on 2014-10-10, despite (ql:update-all-dists) saying that everything's up to day
2015-01-22T19:38:27Z Xach: Adlai: updating dists updates files on disk, not code in session.
2015-01-22T19:38:37Z Adlai: this is with a fresh sbcl
2015-01-22T19:38:55Z jasom: Adlai: make sure there isn't another swank visible to asdf
2015-01-22T19:39:06Z Xach: (ql:where-is-system "swank") could give a hint
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2015-01-22T19:40:29Z amir_: hi
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2015-01-22T19:41:38Z Guest84197: i need to know are there any projects in Gsoc which involves Closure
2015-01-22T19:41:45Z Guest84197: ?
2015-01-22T19:42:11Z Shinmera: Probably not, Closure is a dead project.
2015-01-22T19:42:22Z Adlai: Xach: sorry, airport wifi... this is with a fresh session, but it's still loading the old swank version.
2015-01-22T19:42:25Z Shinmera: You might mean to say Clojure, for which this is not the channel. Try #clojure
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2015-01-22T19:42:44Z Guest84197: and what about Clisp
2015-01-22T19:42:45Z Guest84197: ?
2015-01-22T19:42:55Z Xach: Adlai: what does (ql:where-is-system "swank") say?
2015-01-22T19:43:13Z Guest84197: i wanted to implement finger trees in lisp but was unsuccessful
2015-01-22T19:43:14Z Guest84197: ?
2015-01-22T19:43:19Z Adlai: #P"/home/adlai/src/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.10.1/"
2015-01-22T19:43:27Z Shinmera: This is a statement?
2015-01-22T19:44:05Z Guest84197: Has anyone implemented finger tree in Clisp ?
2015-01-22T19:44:12Z Xach: Adlai: what do you get from (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")?
2015-01-22T19:44:39Z Adlai: Xach: You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2015-01-13.
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2015-01-22T19:45:21Z Adlai: Guest84197: "Clisp" generally refers to a specific implementation of "Common Lisp"... if you're looking for data structure libraries, a bunch are listed in http://www.cliki.net/data%20structure
2015-01-22T19:45:38Z Guest84197: ok thanks
2015-01-22T19:45:48Z Xach: Adlai: Hmm, you might want to try ql-dist::(clean (dist "quicklisp")) and (ql:quickload "swank")
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2015-01-22T19:48:49Z Adlai assumes Xach meant (ql-dist::clean (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp")), which worked. thank you!
2015-01-22T19:49:12Z Adlai: well, "worked" may be premature, but it's compiling the updated version right now, so it seems to be work-ing
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2015-01-22T19:49:36Z Xach: Adlai: I didn't mean that.
2015-01-22T19:49:47Z Xach: If you're using sbcl, ql-dist::(clean (dist "quicklisp")) suffices.
2015-01-22T19:49:56Z Adlai: news to me
2015-01-22T19:50:06Z Adlai: where can I read about this?
2015-01-22T19:50:40Z Xach: IRC, for one. Look up a few lines.
2015-01-22T19:50:44Z Xach: Not sure if it's in the manual.
2015-01-22T19:50:46Z Adlai: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Reader-Extensions ?
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2015-01-22T19:54:32Z playnu_com_ar_: Hello, am making a binding to a C++ library that has exceptions, exist any chance that if an exception in throwed from the C++, lisp catches it?
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2015-01-22T19:55:04Z playnu_com_ar_: i think not, but here stay the experts
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2015-01-22T19:55:27Z Adlai: more information would help. which implementation are you using?
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2015-01-22T19:56:13Z Adlai: drmeister is working on a new implementation that will interoperate with C++
2015-01-22T19:58:22Z jasom: playnu_com_ar_: no, you need to write wrappers that catch the exception
2015-01-22T19:59:08Z drmeister: playnu_com_ar_: clasp is a new Common Lisp implementation that works seamlessly with c++ exceptions
2015-01-22T19:59:48Z playnu_com_ar_: ohoo i will take a look at clasp
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2015-01-22T20:00:39Z drmeister: Gitub.com/drmeister/clasp
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2015-01-22T21:28:47Z yenda: is the seed used by sbcl for #'random related to processor cycles ?
2015-01-22T21:29:45Z |3b|: RANDOM just uses current value of *RANDOM-STATE*, which will be saved in the image
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2015-01-22T21:30:18Z Shinmera: yenda: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Random-Number-Generation
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2015-01-22T22:05:00Z jasom: does anyone know where the logic is for the indentation that happens in emacs with slime?
2015-01-22T22:05:34Z nyef: It's not just the common-lisp-indent-function that comes with emacs?
2015-01-22T22:05:48Z jasom: that would be why I couldn't find it in slime
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2015-01-22T22:08:49Z Shinmera: jasom: Look at contrib/slime-cl-indent.el
2015-01-22T22:09:15Z Shinmera: jasom: You can also influence the way things are indented from the lisp side. For that, have a look at https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-indent
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2015-01-22T22:26:59Z xyh: I found that SBCL's FORMAT can indent SEXP, while CLL's can not.
2015-01-22T22:27:07Z xyh: * CCL
2015-01-22T22:27:18Z pjb: Check *print-pretty*
2015-01-22T22:27:20Z Shinmera: Both can
2015-01-22T22:27:27Z xyh: oh!
2015-01-22T22:27:31Z Shinmera: CCL has *print-pretty* set to NIL by default, whereas it's T on SBCL
2015-01-22T22:32:38Z xyh: I have a little tester (fork from MSL.TEST) can output its report in org-mode's syntax now ^-^
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2015-01-22T22:48:55Z Adlai: "For rational arguments, signum is a rational function, but it may be irrational for complex arguments." << cartesian coordinates considered harmful
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2015-01-22T23:20:01Z xyh: (ql:quickload "hemlock.clx") ==> [package iolib.syscalls]..; g++ -m64  ...   >> fatal error: lfp.h: No such file or directory
2015-01-22T23:20:13Z xyh: what is lfp?
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2015-01-22T23:21:12Z pillton: libfixposix I think.
2015-01-22T23:21:27Z pillton: Which is part of IOLIB.
2015-01-22T23:22:03Z pillton: Or was part of. I can't remember.
2015-01-22T23:22:46Z fe[nl]ix: xyh: it's a C library you must install
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