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2015-01-15T02:46:39Z rhllor: is there a library out there for parsing XML?
2015-01-15T02:48:35Z akkad: cl-xml?
2015-01-15T02:49:30Z akkad: rhllor: (ql:system-apropos "xml") => dozens of them
2015-01-15T02:50:07Z akkad: rhllor: https://gist.github.com/f1918142336c2419f1d1
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2015-01-15T03:00:20Z pjb: H4ns: don't desillusionate people!  Give them: (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-01-15T03:00:44Z akkad: pjb nice! this could be the common denominator
2015-01-15T03:02:09Z akkad: this is pretty cool
2015-01-15T03:03:00Z akkad: pjb: This looks like it should be called Ethperanto
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2015-01-15T03:07:25Z pjb: minion: memo for playnu_com_ar_: you can see what is read with #. by using quote!  (quote #.whatever)
2015-01-15T03:07:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell playnu_com_ar_ when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-01-15T03:13:09Z pjb: jackdaniel: all symbols that are macros or special operators in CL can be fbound.  But that's a private part for the implementation: conforming user code cannot use those functions.  To call the macro function at run-time you would call (macro-function 'and): (funcall (macro-function 'and) '(and t nil) nil) --> (if t (and nil)) ; this is not useful in general!
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2015-01-15T03:17:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-15T03:21:34Z Guthur`: morning beach
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2015-01-15T03:29:34Z akkad: morning beach!
2015-01-15T03:29:52Z pjb: minion: memo for didi: as soon as you use &key, &rest arguments must come in pairs, and keywords must be symbols.  So if you want arbitrary &rest arguments, you should avoid &key, and parse the rest yourself.
2015-01-15T03:29:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell didi when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-01-15T04:00:58Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2015-01-15T05:16:12Z beach: It is strange to write code like: (defmacro defmacro (...) ...)
2015-01-15T05:18:02Z beach: Initially, DEFMACRO is "hand written" to call the host COMPILE function on the body.  The new definition automatically calls the target compiler.
2015-01-15T05:18:53Z beach: I mean, after the new definition has been executed, new macros will generate a macro function that has been compiled with the target compiler.
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2015-01-15T05:43:22Z pjb: (cl:defmacro defmacro perhaps?
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2015-01-15T05:43:50Z pjb: or (bootstrap:defmacro cl:defmacro ?
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2015-01-15T06:04:43Z beach: pjb: In SICL, CL:DEFMACRO and DEFMACRO are the same because I don't play tricks with packages.  I don't need to since I have first-class global environments.
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2015-01-15T06:19:43Z beach: pjb: I find it interesting that, despite the fact that you have actually understood the concept of first-class global environments, it is so hard to grasp the implications of this concept that you still suggest playing tricks with package.  I take that as a sign that there might be more interesting implications to be discovered. :)
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2015-01-15T06:33:41Z pjb: beach: It's just I didn't switch over to the implementer side entirely yet :-)
2015-01-15T06:35:41Z pjb: Now, even with environment, I assume that (in-package :cl) (defmacro a …) (defmacro defmacro …) (defmacro b …)  would mean that A is defined with the first defmacro (unshown here), and B with the defmacro defined here.  Since defmacro must put the new macro in the compilation environment.
2015-01-15T06:36:17Z beach: Correct.
2015-01-15T06:36:18Z pjb: Actually, the bootstrap defmacro can dispense with this requirement.
2015-01-15T06:36:40Z pjb: A CL implementation has to be conforming only once it's ready for users :-)
2015-01-15T06:36:56Z beach: Yes, indeed.
2015-01-15T06:38:44Z beach: Also, in order to make the definition of DEFMACRO look "natural", I need the SETF and LAMBDA macros, and the SETF macro uses the MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND macro, so I have a few more temporary macro definitions that need to be made before the (DEFMACRO DEFMACRO ...) form.  Those will later be redefined with the new DEFMACRO of course.
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2015-01-15T06:40:17Z beach: Furthermore, since all files start with (IN-PACKAGE ...) which is a macro, then that one must be defined as well.  But that's it.
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2015-01-15T06:42:15Z beach: Lucky for me, all the macros that are needed before the target version of DEFMACRO is defined can be defined in the NULL lexical environment, because that's what the temporary version of DEFMACRO does.
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2015-01-15T06:43:12Z jasom: okay, any idea why a file with a (defparameter +foo+ ...) will compile, but then fail to load with "+foo+ unbound"
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2015-01-15T06:43:52Z beach: jasom: You might be in a package where DEFPARAMETER is not defined, so it is taken to be a function.
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2015-01-15T06:46:51Z jasom: doh!
2015-01-15T06:47:15Z jasom: yeah, I had a big datafile from some other program I wanted to bring in and just did a quick defapackage and didn't :use cl
2015-01-15T06:47:20Z jasom feels like an idiot
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2015-01-15T06:50:06Z beach: Don't feel bad.  It happens to all of us.
2015-01-15T06:57:41Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-01-15T09:07:31Z Posterdati: hi
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2015-01-15T09:26:16Z pjb: hi
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2015-01-15T11:15:03Z quazimodo: yo
2015-01-15T11:15:03Z quazimodo: ok
2015-01-15T11:15:15Z quazimodo: so I have this thing here that I still don't get (only thougth about it a little bit)
2015-01-15T11:15:24Z quazimodo: we have classes, and we have types. This is annoying and confusing
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2015-01-15T11:15:41Z quazimodo thinks so anyway
2015-01-15T11:16:15Z H4ns: quazimodo: types predate classes.  common lisp is not object oriented in the sense that all its types are also classes in its object system.
2015-01-15T11:16:51Z H4ns: quazimodo: what annoys you about that, anyway?
2015-01-15T11:16:56Z |3b|: also types cover more than really fits into classes
2015-01-15T11:17:21Z |3b|: like distinguishing (integer 3 7) from (integer -4 4)
2015-01-15T11:18:01Z |3b|: or (and integer (satisfies oddp))
2015-01-15T11:18:07Z quazimodo: H4ns: because it's making navigating really haphazard
2015-01-15T11:18:21Z pjb: quazimodo: they are two different things. Even if you were inventing a new language, you would have both.
2015-01-15T11:18:26Z pjb: or missing one.
2015-01-15T11:18:30Z H4ns: quazimodo: are you navigating by types?  by classes?
2015-01-15T11:18:37Z quazimodo: H4ns: exactly!
2015-01-15T11:18:40Z quazimodo: haha
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2015-01-15T11:19:00Z quazimodo: the language has so many relics and vestibial things attached to it, honestly
2015-01-15T11:19:14Z pjb: But this is not the case here.
2015-01-15T11:19:21Z |3b| doesn't think either of types or class falls into those categories
2015-01-15T11:19:26Z H4ns: quazimodo: you can stop using it if you don't like it.  no need to vent your frustration here.
2015-01-15T11:19:29Z pjb: types are set of values. classes are representations.
2015-01-15T11:19:35Z quazimodo: pjb: it sounds like i'm attacking. Actually, i'm whinging because *i* don't get it
2015-01-15T11:19:47Z quazimodo: H4ns: yeah sorry :(
2015-01-15T11:19:47Z jdz: all classes are types, but not all types are classes. easy
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2015-01-15T11:20:41Z quazimodo: ok here's a question (run with it in your minds if you like). does common lisp have much duck typing going on (in any manifestation anyway)?
2015-01-15T11:20:49Z pjb: If you want.
2015-01-15T11:21:10Z pjb: duck typing is a style of programming that you can use, as well as OO, or functional, or declarative, or data drive, or whatever.
2015-01-15T11:21:13Z quazimodo: pjb: without me writing any code, as in the standard library
2015-01-15T11:21:15Z |3b|: if you define 'duck typing' well enough for use to answer, you could probably answer it too
2015-01-15T11:21:18Z |3b|: *for us to answer
2015-01-15T11:21:43Z |3b|: is (+ 1 1.0) duck typing?
2015-01-15T11:21:47Z pjb: quazimodo: well, since there are quite a number of generic functions and higher order functions in CL, you could say that yes, there's some duck typing in there.
2015-01-15T11:21:52Z H4ns: there is no duck typing in common lisp.
2015-01-15T11:22:11Z pjb: (mapcar  (function 1+) '(1 1.0 #c(1 1))) --> (2 2.0 #C(2 1))
2015-01-15T11:22:14Z H4ns: because duck typing is concerned with not making a connection between a method and a class from the caller's perspective.
2015-01-15T11:22:21Z |3b| might argue that generic functions are duck typing
2015-01-15T11:22:29Z H4ns: common lisp does not connect methods to classes.  so there is no duck typing.
2015-01-15T11:22:44Z H4ns: well, if you want to call generic dispatch "duck typing" so be it.
2015-01-15T11:22:47Z |3b|: but that's sort of my point... if you don't define the term we can't answer whether it does by your definition or not
2015-01-15T11:23:32Z quazimodo: I don't understand generic dispatch either to be honest
2015-01-15T11:23:36Z quazimodo: i do,
2015-01-15T11:23:40Z |3b|: do you have 3 answers from "no", to "maybe" to "that's all it has"
2015-01-15T11:23:41Z quazimodo: i don't get how to use it practically
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2015-01-15T11:24:07Z H4ns: quazimodo: it is best to forget what you know about other object oriented languages when you try to approach lisp.
2015-01-15T11:24:10Z pjb: mapcar is doing duck typing because it doesn't care about the type of the list it gets: it just pass its elements as they are to the function it's given.
2015-01-15T11:24:14Z quazimodo: especially this thing where each generic method has a list of arguments, and that's that, your methods cant change that
2015-01-15T11:24:28Z quazimodo: H4ns: yeah... i guess you're right
2015-01-15T11:24:29Z pjb: Compare with a mapcar written in C++, where you would have to use templates to cover your ass.
2015-01-15T11:24:45Z H4ns: there is no such thing as a "generic method". you also need to get your terminology straight.
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2015-01-15T11:24:55Z quazimodo: H4ns: generic function. My bad
2015-01-15T11:25:00Z Zhivago: Do you mean each generic function?
2015-01-15T11:25:26Z quazimodo: yeah, i don't understand why we can't have arbitrary arguments per function
2015-01-15T11:25:39Z quazimodo: once the generic function is defined, that's it.
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2015-01-15T11:25:48Z Zhivago: You do, per function.
2015-01-15T11:25:48Z williamyaoh: Well, for one thing you can, with optional arguments.
2015-01-15T11:25:50Z pjb: quazimodo: you can have arbitrary arguments per function
2015-01-15T11:25:58Z H4ns: quazimodo: you cannot change the number of arguments, that is right.  there is no dispatch on the number of arguments in common lisp
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2015-01-15T11:26:13Z |3b|: because the behavior of the generic function depends on the classes of its required arguments, and they spec doesn't have a provision for dispatching on "missing argument"
2015-01-15T11:26:18Z Zhivago: Methods just tell the gf what to do once called.
2015-01-15T11:26:22Z quazimodo: H4ns: right, and i'm sure there's a good reason for that.. i just dont know it
2015-01-15T11:26:40Z H4ns: quazimodo: the reason is that the language designers did not find such a feature important.
2015-01-15T11:26:53Z Zhivago: It is not function overloading.
2015-01-15T11:26:57Z pjb: But you can trivially implement it: (defun f (&rest args) (f* (length args) args)) (defgeneric f* (n &rest args) (:method ((n (eql 1)) &rest args) :one) (:method ((n (eql 2)) &rest args) :two) …)
2015-01-15T11:27:19Z Zhivago: Being able to say (foo ~
2015-01-15T11:27:40Z Zhivago: (foo #'my-gf) is a big part of it.
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2015-01-15T11:29:21Z quazimodo: hrm
2015-01-15T11:29:32Z quazimodo: pjb: you're a very scarily smart dude, do you know that
2015-01-15T11:29:46Z quazimodo: I'd employ you in a heartbeat, if I had a software company :P
2015-01-15T11:29:53Z pjb: Thanks.
2015-01-15T11:30:02Z quazimodo: the last 4 or 5 years I keep coming back here and going "holy crap pjb is scary"
2015-01-15T11:30:18Z pjb: I just read the clhs in the text.
2015-01-15T11:30:40Z pjb: I've not read it entirely actually.
2015-01-15T11:31:12Z pjb: There are parts about CLOS and the MOP that I defer to Pascal Costanza :-)
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2015-01-15T12:46:30Z francogrex: Hi, an sorry in advance if this has been asked before but the answer escapes me now: (loop repeat 10 do (sleep 0.1) (print (get-universal-time))) how can I capture finer steps than seconds?
2015-01-15T12:46:32Z francogrex: (sbcl)
2015-01-15T12:46:59Z |3b|: clhs g-i-r-t
2015-01-15T12:46:59Z specbot: Matches: get-internal-real-time, get-internal-run-time.
2015-01-15T12:47:08Z francogrex: ok
2015-01-15T12:47:11Z francogrex: thanks
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2015-01-15T12:49:45Z splittist: And |3b| wins the prize for the most concise answer
2015-01-15T12:52:24Z francogrex: so INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND varies widely
2015-01-15T12:52:58Z francogrex: in clisp it's 10000000 while sbcl 1000 ....
2015-01-15T12:53:52Z Xach: both finer than seconds
2015-01-15T12:54:06Z |3b|: right, and it might not actually measure that precisely, but should be better than seconds
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2015-01-15T12:55:50Z francogrex: yes for what I need it's excessively sufficient, I am not measuring the speed of light...
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2015-01-15T12:55:51Z |3b|: and remember that 0 is some arbitrary time, so use it for relative timing rather than absolute time
2015-01-15T12:56:06Z francogrex: ok
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2015-01-15T13:28:42Z Cymew: What do you do when a function you use return two values and you only care about the second? Use MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND and ignore it barfs about the unused second value?
2015-01-15T13:28:50Z Xach: Cymew: nth-value
2015-01-15T13:29:03Z Cymew: oh, that one.
2015-01-15T13:29:10Z Cymew: Thanks Xach
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2015-01-15T13:29:16Z Xach: no problem
2015-01-15T13:29:51Z pjb: (multiple-value-bind (a b) (declare (ignore a)) #| doesn't barf |#)
2015-01-15T13:31:52Z pjb: Sometimes you need more than one value, while still ignoring others.
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2015-01-15T14:29:09Z jasom: (destructuring-bind (b) (cdr (multiple-value-list (foo)))
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2015-01-15T14:34:00Z AlexeyK: Hi! How to detect error source? asdf:load-system does not load specified system (component not found). How to "debug" asdf:load-system ?
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2015-01-15T14:34:56Z Hache_: quicklisp :D
2015-01-15T14:35:23Z Xach: AlexeyK: for component-not-found, the "error" is in the .asd file that specifies a component that you do not have available. but it's not really an error. it will go away if you install the missing component.
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2015-01-15T14:36:31Z AlexeyK: I use simple test project to learn asdf: testproj.asdf (defsystem "TESTPROJ")
2015-01-15T14:36:42Z AlexeyK: testproj.asd
2015-01-15T14:36:50Z Xach: AlexeyK: you can't use an upper case name like that.
2015-01-15T14:36:55Z Xach: AlexeyK: it is better to use a symbol.
2015-01-15T14:37:03Z Xach: but if you want to use a string, use a lowercase string.
2015-01-15T14:37:40Z AlexeyK: will check )
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2015-01-15T14:50:38Z AlexeyK: Xach low letters work correctry but why upper case does not work? and (defsystem #:testproj)   (asdf:load-system #:testproj)   does not work too
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2015-01-15T14:51:31Z Xach: AlexeyK: because in asdf lowercase strings are used to name systems
2015-01-15T14:52:03Z Xach: AlexeyK: defsystem is a macro, asdf:load-system is a function. you can't use #:foo in a place that is evaluated, like as a function argument, unless it is bound.
2015-01-15T14:52:15Z dlowe: or quoted
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2015-01-15T14:54:54Z Xach: it is common to use (asdf:load-system "testproj") or (asdf:load-system :testproj) or (asdf:load-system 'testproj) and other similar things.
2015-01-15T14:55:07Z Xach thinks back to the good old days of (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ...)
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2015-01-15T14:55:50Z Xach: old days, anyway
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2015-01-15T14:56:47Z Cymew: I never figured out what oos meant...
2015-01-15T14:57:18Z dim: operation on system
2015-01-15T14:57:50Z dim: I spent time on the asdf docs yesterday to make is to that a saved application could load a system without reloading all its asdf system dependencies, and failed
2015-01-15T14:58:13Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/290916b0f03829f63211afffd72e018f41013d7b for details on how I expected it to work
2015-01-15T14:59:07Z Cymew: dim: thanks. it was just a magic incantaion for me. Come to think of it, that part has not changed very much.
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2015-01-15T15:01:41Z AlexeyK: Xarg: Tnx for help )
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2015-01-15T15:02:47Z Shinmera: dim: That reminds me of something I did about a year ago for a project of mine
2015-01-15T15:02:47Z Shinmera: dim: I don't recall the details of what I did, but it's possible to tell ASDF whether a specific system is "required" to be loaded.
2015-01-15T15:02:47Z Shinmera: dim: NEEDED-IN-IMAGE-P comes to mind, but I think there was something else as well.
2015-01-15T15:03:53Z dim: there are several ways to pre-register a system in asdf, and there's (asdf:load-system :force-not ...) too, none of them work in my tests
2015-01-15T15:04:42Z Shinmera: dim: Wait, are you talking about the system definitions themselves or the actual systems?
2015-01-15T15:04:51Z dim: actual systems
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2015-01-15T15:04:59Z Shinmera: Ok.
2015-01-15T15:05:05Z dim: oh maybe that's my problem, didn't see the distinction yesterday
2015-01-15T15:05:42Z Shinmera: You will need the system definitions either way, but once you have them you can inhibit loading of certain systems.
2015-01-15T15:05:54Z dim: I played with asdf:register-preloaded-system
2015-01-15T15:05:57Z dim: failed
2015-01-15T15:06:22Z dim: and force-not is failing when trying to find the asd file
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2015-01-15T15:06:34Z dim: so maybe I need both force-not and register-preloaded-system, didn't try that
2015-01-15T15:06:47Z Shinmera: Try defining a method on NEEDED-IN-IMAGE-P
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2015-01-15T15:10:10Z Shinmera: In my particular case I wanted to create "virtual" systems that would delegate loading and things to another system that is independently configured. In order to make things work with action planning (so it reloaded as appropriate) I had to define methods on plan-action-status, needed-in-image-p, and compute-action-stamp. Though I think in your case needed-in-image-p will suffice.
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2015-01-15T15:10:40Z loke_: hi guys
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2015-01-15T15:25:15Z dim: Shinmera: in my case I would think that :force-not would suffice really
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2015-01-15T15:26:00Z Shinmera: dim: Well I'm just offering you options.
2015-01-15T15:26:23Z dim: yeah I appreciate that, I'm saying it's not working per the docs
2015-01-15T15:26:41Z dim: I don't want to invest too much time, I was happy to have --self-upgrade but if it doesn't work, well that's it
2015-01-15T15:26:47Z dim: it only works on the build machine
2015-01-15T15:26:50Z dim: useless.
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2015-01-15T17:02:20Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-01-15T18:04:40Z krrrcks: Hi, is there a recommondation for a library for dealing with YAML files?
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2015-01-15T18:06:49Z dim: usually the one that's in QL is prefered ;-)
2015-01-15T18:07:06Z dim: so that would be cl-yaclyaml
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2015-01-15T18:09:20Z krrrcks: I'll give it a try. Thx.
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2015-01-15T18:30:00Z Shinmera: I am happy to report that Plump runs on Clasp(preview)! https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TWpRNQ==
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2015-01-15T19:08:36Z Xach: hmm, it seems like the @export cuteness messes with M-.
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2015-01-15T19:21:12Z dim: just released pgloader 3.2.0!
2015-01-15T19:21:39Z dim: http://pgloader.io/howto/quickstart.html will show you the most novel feature: all usable from the command line with no .load command file
2015-01-15T19:22:01Z dim: in CL terms I should document that you can use pgloader as a normal cl lib with an API, but I'm not sure which format I should use for the docs
2015-01-15T19:22:12Z dim: any pointers? ideas? recommandations?
2015-01-15T19:23:17Z Shinmera: What do you mean by "format"?
2015-01-15T19:23:37Z dim: context? pgloader source format I guess?
2015-01-15T19:24:00Z dim: csv is a format "family", then fixed width columns is a format, dbf and ixf are formats too
2015-01-15T19:24:16Z Xach: csv for the docs?
2015-01-15T19:24:21Z dim: or the PostgreSQL COPY format is a format, too
2015-01-15T19:24:28Z dim: Xach: what do you mean?
2015-01-15T19:24:33Z dim: aaah
2015-01-15T19:24:42Z Shinmera: Do you want us to tell you whether you should release the docs in html, tex, word? Or do you want us to tell you about documentation generation utilities? Or do you want us to tell you about conventions used in documentation and docstrings?
2015-01-15T19:24:44Z dim: I'm slow (again, but with novel excuses)
2015-01-15T19:24:45Z Shinmera: What do you want?
2015-01-15T19:24:59Z dim: yeah what would you prefer as a CL hacker?
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2015-01-15T19:25:10Z dim: HTML seems the way to go
2015-01-15T19:25:17Z dim: even for quicklisp distributed docs, I guess
2015-01-15T19:25:23Z Shinmera: I release my things as HTML, but generated from the source and a markdown file.
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2015-01-15T19:25:41Z dim: but then is there a tool I should use and stop bethering, ala ediaware docs, or you prefer something else? what's common to do, if anything?
2015-01-15T19:25:47Z Xach: I write html, but want to stop doing that and use something else.
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2015-01-15T19:25:59Z Xach: might use AsciiDoctor.
2015-01-15T19:26:06Z Xach: dim: there isn't a consensus best thing to use
2015-01-15T19:26:25Z dim: that was my impression yes :(
2015-01-15T19:26:26Z Shinmera: If anything, what to do about documentation is where the CL "community" is very far apart.
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2015-01-15T19:27:47Z dim: I don't think the docstrings are enough, I'd like to provide something more like http://weitz.de/drakma/
2015-01-15T19:28:06Z Shinmera: Right, which is a documentation file along with the generated docstrings.
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2015-01-15T19:28:18Z Shinmera: Which is also what I do, although differently.
2015-01-15T19:28:19Z Xach: dim: that was written mostly by editing html
2015-01-15T19:28:41Z dim: IIRC there isn't even a standard (de-facto) tool for producing the HTML from the docstrings
2015-01-15T19:28:46Z Xach: no
2015-01-15T19:28:49Z dim: maybe I'd just leave it to quickdocs
2015-01-15T19:29:46Z dim: well, what I want to avoid is the situation where some CL user want to hack pgloader or embed it into its own application but can't for lack of docs and don't ask me about it
2015-01-15T19:29:52Z dim: what are the odds, really? ;-)
2015-01-15T19:30:05Z Xach: docs are virtuous
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2015-01-15T19:30:38Z dim: pgloader manpage is > 2000 lines, so yeah, agreed
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2015-01-15T19:31:28Z dim: the pgloader API is still subject to refactoring activities and improvements, lots of them, so api level docs will cost lots of maintenance time
2015-01-15T19:31:52Z dim: I'll think about it, knowing that about the tools and the expected output I'm basically on my own, then
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2015-01-15T19:46:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: Interesting use of Lisp for music found in some old episodes of Computer Chronicles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=D8lSMytqdEY#t=1039
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2015-01-15T19:49:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: Not sure if that is a symbolics system or what...
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2015-01-15T19:54:11Z |3b|: google suggests it is a xerox system, judging by the keyboard
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2015-01-15T19:57:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: Didn't realize Xerox used Lisp.
2015-01-15T19:57:47Z |3b|: PARC did all sorts of fun stuff
2015-01-15T19:58:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: If only they had been allowed to keep their patents...
2015-01-15T19:58:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well, continue as a computer business rather.
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2015-01-15T20:45:27Z PuercoPop: dim: check out wookie-docs for an example of a custom md to docs converter in cl. You could also probably extend coleslaw
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2015-01-15T20:48:42Z Shinmera: Staple can also be extended to handle arbitrary documentation body formats, as long as you can turn it into HTML.
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2015-01-15T21:52:37Z patrickwonders: Erf... I had an opinion question (best practices) that I cannot remember now that I jumped through all of the hoops to get reconnected to IRC.  
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2015-01-15T21:55:01Z Xach: idle for 3 to 5 years and it may come back to you
2015-01-15T21:55:29Z patrickwonders nods
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2015-01-15T21:58:02Z copec: So...reading through these CL books they introduce a lot of common idioms that are used.  Would there be a central reference for stuff like that?
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2015-01-15T22:00:19Z patrickwonders: copec: Not that I know of.  There is an article/post around about how most design patterns are non-issues in Lisp, but other than the Common Lisp Cookbook, I can't think of anything like you're describing.
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2015-01-15T22:00:55Z lispm: more like 'how most design patterns are non-issues in Lisp' -> design patterns of a particular book
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2015-01-15T22:01:16Z patrickwonders  nods, again
2015-01-15T22:02:31Z lispm: that was an article of Peter Norvig for promotion of Dylan, to show that GoF patterns were often easier or not necessary in Dylan (and CLOS / Lisp) than Java
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2015-01-15T22:02:59Z Xach: copec: reading code helps
2015-01-15T22:03:32Z Xach: and there are some books with a style i like more than others. tastes vary, though. i like paradigms of ai programming and practical common lisp. i don't like ansi common lisp, on lisp, or let over lambda much.
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2015-01-15T22:04:37Z copec: I have been, theres just decades worth of code with about every style and paradigm
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2015-01-15T22:04:43Z lispm: also good style: Winston/Horn (3rd edition), AMOP, CLtL2 examples, ...
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2015-01-15T22:05:22Z lispm: Keene's CLOS book is also good
2015-01-15T22:05:39Z Xach: agree with all of those.
2015-01-15T22:05:55Z lispm: On Lisp is said to feel like the author actually wanted to use another language
2015-01-15T22:06:03Z lispm: -> Arc
2015-01-15T22:07:12Z lispm: Rare but good is 'Lisp Style & Design' from Miller/Benson
2015-01-15T22:07:30Z lispm: Even the old Lisp book from Rodney Brooks has some  good code
2015-01-15T22:08:01Z copec: I like Grahams stuff in general, but I actually like Practical Common Lisp the most out of reading "ANSI Common Lisp", "Land of Lisp", and "Practical Common Lisp"
2015-01-15T22:08:21Z lispm: Practical Common Lisp is really good
2015-01-15T22:09:00Z lispm: Land of Lisp from a coding style not so much, more like average
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2015-01-15T22:10:48Z jasom: is it possible to get uiop:run-program to output a (unsigned-byte 8) vector?
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2015-01-15T22:12:25Z jasom: a iso-8859-1 string with no linending conversion will do in a pinch too (since (map 'vector #'code-char) will convert that on any unicode lisp)
2015-01-15T22:21:05Z quazimodo: awww yeah
2015-01-15T22:21:09Z quazimodo: 3 jobs applied for
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2015-01-15T22:21:33Z quazimodo: swear to aisha if i don' become a billionare soon
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2015-01-15T22:25:59Z Zhivago: Just pick the right currency.
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2015-01-15T22:32:17Z Zhivago: VND would probably do the trick.
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