2015-01-12T00:02:01Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:02:59Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T00:05:56Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:06:25Z Ainieco quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T00:07:04Z goglosh: stupid question here 2015-01-12T00:07:36Z goglosh: if i do (foo (cdr list)) would I be getting the cdr of the original list? 2015-01-12T00:08:11Z Xach: goglosh: yes 2015-01-12T00:08:38Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T00:08:45Z ruste joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:08:53Z goglosh: thanks 2015-01-12T00:09:08Z b3taf1sh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:09:13Z Xach: goglosh: for a proper list, you'll get a cons or nil. the cons is the actual cons that makes up the structure of the list, so modifying it affects LIST. 2015-01-12T00:11:23Z goglosh: awright, thanks 2015-01-12T00:11:45Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T00:11:56Z goglosh: I usually noticed a (foo list) passes the actual list rather than a copy 2015-01-12T00:12:19Z goglosh: s/usually/actually 2015-01-12T00:12:51Z goglosh: if I wanted to pass a copy, how would I do that? 2015-01-12T00:13:37Z pjb: (foo (copy-list list)) 2015-01-12T00:14:00Z goglosh: great thank you 2015-01-12T00:15:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-12T00:17:52Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T00:18:10Z ruste quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T00:19:49Z vdamewood quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-01-12T00:20:46Z jleija joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:21:04Z stassats: goglosh: CL doesn't copy anything when passing 2015-01-12T00:21:23Z Zamenhof joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:23:55Z goglosh: so it.... "passes by reference"? 2015-01-12T00:24:34Z stassats: by value, some values are references 2015-01-12T00:25:06Z goglosh: makes sense 2015-01-12T00:26:40Z scottj joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:26:43Z goglosh: so cons is a pair of pointers, therefore the behaviour, amiright? 2015-01-12T00:27:38Z stassats: the value would a be pointer to a pair of pointers 2015-01-12T00:27:44Z alpha- quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T00:28:08Z kons quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T00:28:38Z goglosh 's head starts to smoke 2015-01-12T00:28:39Z stassats: or rather, to a pair of values, which could be pointers 2015-01-12T00:29:18Z stassats: values which are not pointers are usually small integers, fixnums 2015-01-12T00:29:19Z malice joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:29:23Z goglosh: but that's because... a symbol acts like a pointer itself, huh? (in the cons case) 2015-01-12T00:29:51Z stassats: symbol is an object with various properties 2015-01-12T00:29:57Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-12T00:29:59Z stassats: a name, a package, a property list 2015-01-12T00:30:57Z stassats: NIL is a degenerate case 2015-01-12T00:33:10Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:34:19Z b3taf1sh quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-01-12T00:35:18Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:36:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:38:28Z zRecursi` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:40:52Z zRecursive quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T00:43:59Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T00:44:31Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:45:59Z seggy is now known as segmond 2015-01-12T00:48:15Z trumae joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:53:43Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T00:54:52Z russmatney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T00:56:12Z ebrasca1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:56:25Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-12T00:57:07Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-12T00:59:07Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T01:02:56Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:12:39Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-12T01:14:30Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:14:33Z stassats quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T01:14:33Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:15:14Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T01:15:43Z malice quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T01:16:06Z trumae left #lisp 2015-01-12T01:23:55Z pjb: goglosh: stassats is always very imprecise. CL allows implementations to copy numbers and characters when passing them. That's why (let ((x 1)) (eq x x)) can return NIL. 2015-01-12T01:24:49Z stassats: because goglosh is going to be implementing CL 2015-01-12T01:25:09Z pjb: stassats: you have a problem with the notion of truth. 2015-01-12T01:25:37Z pjb: 1984ist! 2015-01-12T01:26:10Z stassats: i should have given him an rm -rf / script instead, i guess 2015-01-12T01:26:21Z pjb: Yes. That'd be truer. 2015-01-12T01:26:42Z pjb: And since you don't have any argument, as always, you go to ad-hominem attacks… 2015-01-12T01:26:45Z pjb: Lamentable. 2015-01-12T01:27:03Z stassats: this is getting unbearable 2015-01-12T01:28:10Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T01:28:22Z stassats: i should probably stop visiting #lisp and leave everyone for the unadulterated truth 2015-01-12T01:28:55Z pjb: I'm indeed wondering serriously whether you have any postitive impact. 2015-01-12T01:29:08Z pyx joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:29:17Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:29:21Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T01:29:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T01:30:28Z stassats: well, your impact for driving people from #lisp is apparent, so i guess you can think you succeeded in your mission, i'm out of here for good 2015-01-12T01:30:44Z pjb: Good night! 2015-01-12T01:30:48Z stassats is still going to be in #sbcl, if anyone needs to find me 2015-01-12T01:30:54Z stassats: maybe i'll add #clasp as well 2015-01-12T01:30:58Z stassats left #lisp 2015-01-12T01:32:11Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T01:35:00Z loke joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:36:56Z goglosh: ladies plz 2015-01-12T01:40:04Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:40:50Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:43:01Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:43:31Z drmeister: Hey, I always listen to stassats - I may not get it right away but it's always been valuable. 2015-01-12T01:44:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T01:49:42Z Xach: stassats' advice is consistently one million times times more valuable than pjb's. 2015-01-12T01:50:37Z pjb: Of course, there's profit to be made by spreading lies. 2015-01-12T01:52:34Z Xach: One million. 2015-01-12T01:54:33Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-12T01:56:35Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:05:59Z eivarv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T02:06:17Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-12T02:06:31Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:11:46Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:14:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:14:43Z encheladito joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:15:06Z encheladito: anyone here good with cl-oauth ? 2015-01-12T02:16:01Z encheladito: for the life of me i can't POST user-parameters with access-protected-resource 2015-01-12T02:16:26Z encheladito: GET's work fine with user-data but i get an error every time with POST 2015-01-12T02:17:44Z Xach: encheladito: I don't know about cl-oauth, but I've used South (a different oauth library) a bit. Though I can't remember if I POSTed or not. 2015-01-12T02:17:56Z encheladito: hmm 2015-01-12T02:19:00Z encheladito: i see examples using cl-oauth and they seem to get away with using the same syntax i do 2015-01-12T02:19:07Z encheladito: but it's very odd 2015-01-12T02:19:20Z encheladito: the twitter api always gives me the 32 error 2015-01-12T02:19:30Z encheladito: but, i am definitely authenticated 2015-01-12T02:19:35Z encheladito: as any get request will work 2015-01-12T02:19:42Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-01-12T02:19:58Z Xach: Oh, for twitter I have used Chirp (which uses South) with good results. 2015-01-12T02:20:07Z encheladito: oh really? 2015-01-12T02:20:13Z Xach: yes. including posting images and such. 2015-01-12T02:20:38Z encheladito: heh, i kind of want to figure it out with cl-oauth at this point 2015-01-12T02:22:55Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T02:26:32Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-12T02:30:55Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T02:32:52Z Fare joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:33:47Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:39:39Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:44:44Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T02:46:04Z ebrasca1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T02:46:05Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T02:46:20Z chu joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:46:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:46:29Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T02:47:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:47:09Z ebrasca1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:47:30Z russmatney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T02:48:11Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:49:21Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-12T02:49:58Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:51:32Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:51:32Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T02:51:43Z encheladito: hm 2015-01-12T02:51:48Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:51:59Z encheladito: its very odd i only have issues with POST 2015-01-12T02:52:16Z encheladito: anyone else had a similar issue with cl-oauth 2015-01-12T02:52:48Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T02:54:22Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T02:54:56Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T02:55:34Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2015-01-12T02:56:18Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:10:18Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:15:43Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:18:01Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:18:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-01-12T03:20:05Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:20:16Z Xach has a fix for the iolib system index problem, maybe 2015-01-12T03:21:03Z ynniv: Why does defclass need me to specify initarg for everything? It seems like 99% of the time the initarg needs to be specified, and it will be the same symbol as the slot name. 2015-01-12T03:22:20Z Xach: ynniv: that is a very limiting way to think of the options. 2015-01-12T03:22:59Z Xach: ynniv: it is possible to use non-exported symbols as initargs, for slots that aren't meant to be used by external consumers 2015-01-12T03:23:08Z Xach: ynniv: or no initargs at all 2015-01-12T03:23:17Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:23:29Z Xach: and matching the slot name is not necessary 2015-01-12T03:23:32Z Xach: defaulting to a keyword matching the slot is not a great default 2015-01-12T03:24:09Z Xach: I agree that it's common to do it that way, but I think 99% overestimates it. 2015-01-12T03:24:16Z ynniv: I understand that it isn’t necessary. Perhaps because my philosophy has been not to hide fields, it seems silly. 2015-01-12T03:25:27Z beach: ynniv: That is a very counterproductive philosophy. 2015-01-12T03:25:39Z ynniv: It seems like having initargs be the slot name, with the option to specify :initargs nil is a better default. 2015-01-12T03:26:05Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:26:24Z White_Flame: ynniv: lots of people define a custom defclass* macro to support their own personal prefeences for default class configuration 2015-01-12T03:26:45Z beach: ynniv: And that is a very bad idea. 2015-01-12T03:26:47Z Xach: It's a common thing for novices to try, and I think just as common for experienced users to abandon. 2015-01-12T03:26:55Z csziacobus: ynniv: lots of people like to use a % prefix to their slot names, and having a % prefix for initargs is ugly 2015-01-12T03:27:06Z beach: ynniv: As Xach says, you sometimes want no :INITARG at all. 2015-01-12T03:27:30Z ynniv: I think that :initargs nil is a clear way to state that. 2015-01-12T03:27:35Z hrs quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-12T03:27:46Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:27:54Z beach: ynniv: No it isn't. A clear way of stating that is to omit the :INITARG. 2015-01-12T03:28:12Z ynniv: I see that you have a strong opinion. 2015-01-12T03:28:25Z ynniv: csziacobus: I haven’t run into %… what’s the rationale there? 2015-01-12T03:28:43Z beach: ynniv: It has nothing to do with personal opinion. It has everything to do with widely-used conventiones. 2015-01-12T03:28:47Z beach: conventions. 2015-01-12T03:28:48Z csziacobus: ynniv: often you do not want people to acecess the slot directly with slot-value 2015-01-12T03:28:57Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-12T03:29:15Z ynniv: So %prefix suggests an internal slot? 2015-01-12T03:29:30Z csziacobus: ynniv: not necessarily 2015-01-12T03:29:39Z beach: ynniv: % suggests "danger" or "private". 2015-01-12T03:30:00Z csziacobus: you can have a slot named %foo but have an accessor foo defined for the slot 2015-01-12T03:30:16Z csziacobus: that way the public interface is to use the accessor foo 2015-01-12T03:30:38Z White_Flame: and to me, that's a preference I'd declare in a custom macro 2015-01-12T03:30:40Z ynniv: So %prefix is a sign that you shouldn’t access it directly. 2015-01-12T03:30:51Z White_Flame: instead of directly declaring names 2015-01-12T03:30:53Z csziacobus: and with the package system most people wilol never ever use slot value with the % symbol unless they use ::%foo which is unlikely 2015-01-12T03:30:58Z beach: ynniv: Yes. 2015-01-12T03:31:15Z ynniv: White_Flame: Yes, a custom defclass seems like an easy way to clean up declarations some. 2015-01-12T03:31:32Z beach: ynniv: And a very bad idea as Xach pointed out. 2015-01-12T03:32:10Z csziacobus: ynniv: ialthough, i suggest you try it, and probably you will go back to the old defclass pretty soon 2015-01-12T03:32:15Z ynniv: I thought Xach was talking about mostly public fields in general. What’s wrong with custom defclass? 2015-01-12T03:32:17Z White_Flame: It depends if the application/system owns a particular way of defining classes 2015-01-12T03:32:26Z beach: ynniv: It is custom. 2015-01-12T03:32:32Z White_Flame: which is a lot cleaner than programmer policy 2015-01-12T03:32:39Z ebrasca quit (Quit: ebrasca) 2015-01-12T03:32:52Z beach: ynniv: Furthermore, it will introduce defaults that most of the time you should not want to want. 2015-01-12T03:33:24Z White_Flame: If you have lots of variation of how things are defined within a single application, using explicit defclass options can make more sense 2015-01-12T03:33:31Z ebrasca1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-12T03:33:40Z ynniv: I have no reason so far to think that a different default :initargs is in any way harmful 2015-01-12T03:33:56Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T03:34:35Z beach: ynniv: Your thinking suggests that you do not have the habit of sharing your code with other programmers. 2015-01-12T03:35:42Z White_Flame: I'm not sure that inferring programmer policy from source code instances is any easier than learning the infrastructure tooling built for a project 2015-01-12T03:35:48Z pjb: ynniv: when you are writing higher level code, you will naturally define your own macro to define entities. So the technicalities of defclass won't be a bother in general. 2015-01-12T03:36:41Z White_Flame: explicit infrastructure is more likely to be documented than policy, too 2015-01-12T03:37:04Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T03:37:18Z echo-are` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:38:34Z csziacobus: pjb is right. for example,, i suggest reading the chapter in pcl where seibel presents the define-binary-type macro. defualt initargs are essentially irrelevant. 2015-01-12T03:39:21Z ynniv: I can see the case for it being dangerous to change important things, but allowing access to slots that could have been intended to be private seems pretty harmless. Annoying if you’re writing library code, but even then a simple prefix should raise the eyebrow of a user. 2015-01-12T03:40:41Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:40:53Z beach: ynniv: You pretty much never want to access slots directly. Even if they are private, you typically want to go through an accessor. This practice is called "defining internal protocols". 2015-01-12T03:42:38Z csziacobus: ynniv: another, more practical reason for accessors is so that when you decide to change the implementation of a slot to a method (for example, computing on every call rather than cacheing into a slot) the interface doesn't need to change. 2015-01-12T03:48:07Z ynniv: Sure, but my focus is on initargs. Basically it seems like defclass should work like defstruct unless you specify :initargs nil. I’m surprised this is as controversial as it has been. 2015-01-12T03:48:08Z beach: csziacobus: Exactly. That's what I meant by "internal protocol", i.e. don't commit yourself to representation. 2015-01-12T03:48:51Z pjb: ynniv: it is entirely uncontroversial: use defmacro, it was made to avoid those discussions! 2015-01-12T03:49:00Z ynniv: Since classes and structs are different, I can’t simply use defstruct. 2015-01-12T03:49:37Z pjb: One more reason to use defmacro, and abstract away the difference! 2015-01-12T03:50:07Z pjb: You can use define-class in your program, if you later need to switch between structures and classes, (even on a class basis!), you can do it easily! 2015-01-12T03:50:16Z ynniv: Yes, macros get you out of all sorts of situations. :-) 2015-01-12T03:51:26Z ynniv: I wanted to understand why people would rather say (slot :initarg slot), and I think it’s because they like hiding data more than I do. 2015-01-12T03:51:32Z babypie joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:51:50Z pjb: because they always knew they'd use specific macros for their specific applications! 2015-01-12T03:52:09Z pjb: Lisp is a very low level programming language. Little known fact. 2015-01-12T03:52:13Z ynniv: Heh. Do people paper over these things so frequently? 2015-01-12T03:52:39Z pjb: They write application specific language for each of their specific applications yes. 2015-01-12T03:52:47Z akkad: CLTL, SICP, Land of Lisp, Let over Lambda, and an introduction to Symbolic computing. PAIP is not here yet. 2015-01-12T03:53:34Z csziacobus: if your wondering why they didnt do that in the fiirst place though, from a practical standpoint, those semantics for initargs makes mop alot cleaner 2015-01-12T03:54:37Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T03:54:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T03:55:40Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:57:21Z beach: ynniv: Data hiding is not a personal opinion; it is best practice that has been established by many very smart people over a long period of time. 2015-01-12T03:57:53Z pjb: data hiding, and implementation-choice hiding. 2015-01-12T03:57:54Z beach: ynniv: If you want to write your programs according to your personal opinions, that is fine, but there is no need to ask for advice then. 2015-01-12T03:58:05Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T03:58:20Z Hexstream: Re stassats, never has the Cost of PJB been more readily apparent than today. Seems like I have to idle in 2 more channels from now on. 2015-01-12T03:58:22Z ynniv: It turns out that I didn’t. 2015-01-12T03:58:37Z pjb: So you should never use defstruct or defclass directly, because that's an implementation choice. You should always hide it in a macro define-entity or define-class or defsomething. 2015-01-12T03:58:45Z Xach left #lisp 2015-01-12T03:59:02Z beach: ynniv: Right, you just wanted to confirm that your personal practice is acceptable. But people here don't agree. 2015-01-12T03:59:57Z beach: ynniv: It boils down to whether you want to share your code, or ask for people to help you find problems with it later. 2015-01-12T04:00:10Z beach: ynniv: If you don't intend to share it, you can do whatever you want. 2015-01-12T04:01:06Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-12T04:02:11Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:02:58Z Hexstream: ynniv: My appreciation for DEFCLASS' explicitness has gone way up when I started thinking in terms of generic functions protocols instead of classes. 2015-01-12T04:03:28Z russmatney quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:03:52Z ynniv: What does that mean? 2015-01-12T04:04:17Z pjb: you start writing a bunch of defgeneric. 2015-01-12T04:04:20Z Hexstream: Hum. Do we have a canonical article about generic functions protocols yet? 2015-01-12T04:04:39Z pjb: Then you write some defclass, and a number of methods are implemented with :accessor, :reader or :writer clauses. 2015-01-12T04:05:24Z ynniv: That sounds interesting. Any place I can see more? 2015-01-12T04:06:07Z pjb: sicp 2015-01-12T04:06:15Z Quadrescence: Then you replace all your classes and methods with structs and functions because it's too $SLOW. Am I right? 2015-01-12T04:06:37Z pjb: any basic text book describing abstract data types. 2015-01-12T04:07:57Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-01-12T04:08:13Z TooManyBrackets joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:08:16Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:08:39Z Hexstream: My strategy of avoiding DEFSTRUCT at every turn has been great so far, that said I don't really do performance-critical stuff. My emphasis is more on using data structures that make sense. 2015-01-12T04:08:40Z ynniv: From a common lisp perspective? 2015-01-12T04:09:01Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-12T04:09:45Z TooManyBrackets quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T04:10:31Z egp__ quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2015-01-12T04:10:57Z akkad: is there an sicp CL version? 2015-01-12T04:11:11Z Hexstream: I haven't read SICP yet, but it uses scheme, which doesn't support generic functions (no need to pull a turing completeness argument), so I'm doubtful that it's a great book to learn about generic functions protocol. Though it might address function protocols in general. 2015-01-12T04:11:13Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:11:16Z pjb: akkad: Yes, more than one even. 2015-01-12T04:11:44Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:12:07Z pjb: https://github.com/riskpeep/sicp-cl https://github.com/cbpark/cl-sicp etc just google for it. 2015-01-12T04:13:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:13:54Z ynniv: I’m hoping there is some intersection between “data structures that make sense” and “performance-critical stuff”. 2015-01-12T04:14:08Z akkad: google + CL tends to find many incomplete solutions 2015-01-12T04:14:35Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:14:53Z ynniv: SICP is pretty scheme oriented. Even if you were able to complete it in CL it wouldn’t be CL-like. 2015-01-12T04:15:24Z Hexstream: ynniv: They overlap quite a lot, though I'm saying that has someone who has never needed extreme performance yet. 2015-01-12T04:15:55Z akkad: ynniv: thanks 2015-01-12T04:16:46Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T04:18:02Z ynniv: Quadrescence: Which aspects of classes incur the most penalty? 2015-01-12T04:20:17Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-12T04:20:45Z loke: ynniv: that's a strange question 2015-01-12T04:20:50Z loke: ynniv: Comapred to what? 2015-01-12T04:20:59Z ynniv: defstruct 2015-01-12T04:21:11Z loke: ynniv: On what platform? 2015-01-12T04:21:39Z ynniv: Good question… is it different for every implementation/arch? 2015-01-12T04:22:34Z loke: ynniv: Yes. Theoretically there is no difference (although, to achieve that one would need to have dynamic recompilation on class (re)definition, which no implementation actually does AFAIK) 2015-01-12T04:23:50Z ynniv: Hmm, I’ll have to try both then. 2015-01-12T04:23:51Z Hexstream: DEFSTRUCT syntax and semantics is really horrible compared to DEFCLASS. 2015-01-12T04:23:59Z Zamenhof quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:24:15Z ynniv: More macros then? 2015-01-12T04:24:49Z loke: ynniv: But one obvious difference (perhaps the biggest one?) is that under certain circumstances an array of structs can have the elements inlined in the struct 2015-01-12T04:25:06Z ynniv: Have to run. Thanks for the debate / enlightenment / flame war. I’ll try some things out and report back later. 2015-01-12T04:25:08Z loke: ynniv: That can't be done for classes since they can be redefeined 2015-01-12T04:25:49Z ynniv: Is it common for a program to redefine classes, or are we just talking about the repl? 2015-01-12T04:26:08Z Hexstream: It's common to redefine classes while doing incremental development. 2015-01-12T04:26:29Z encheladito quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T04:26:52Z Hexstream: And it doesn't have to have anything to do with a REPL. 2015-01-12T04:26:57Z ynniv: Hmm. That would make structs quite annoying. 2015-01-12T04:27:08Z ynniv: I said repl but meant incremental development. 2015-01-12T04:27:14Z zyaku joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:27:17Z ynniv: Versus loading a file once. 2015-01-12T04:27:26Z loke: ynniv: Yes 2015-01-12T04:27:39Z loke: ynniv: The hassle of structs are not generally worth it 2015-01-12T04:27:53Z ynniv: Ok, thanks all 2015-01-12T04:27:54Z Hexstream: Structs are usually "redefinable" in practice, it's just that you can't update the instances in-place, you have to rebuild them anew if you want things to work. 2015-01-12T04:27:56Z loke: ynniv: If you benchmark a difference at some point, you can restructure your code to use structs instead 2015-01-12T04:28:00Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-01-12T04:28:40Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2015-01-12T04:30:04Z Hexstream: Well, and you also have to recompile the code that was defined that relied on the struct definition. 2015-01-12T04:30:51Z loke: Hexstream: It would be nice to have had an "inline" declaration for classes that prevented redefinition 2015-01-12T04:31:23Z loke: that would allow arrays to inline class instances, for example 2015-01-12T04:31:36Z Hexstream: loke: There's a non-standard concept called "class sealing". 2015-01-12T04:31:45Z loke: Hexstream: Really? I had no idea. 2015-01-12T04:33:30Z Zhivago: Although that usually prevents further subclassing also. 2015-01-12T04:33:47Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:35:36Z loke: Zhivago: Obviously 2015-01-12T04:35:43Z loke: Hard to benefit from ti otherwise 2015-01-12T04:36:43Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:38:11Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-01-12T04:39:18Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:40:27Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:40:28Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T04:41:32Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T04:42:50Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-01-12T04:50:21Z echo-are` is now known as echo-area 2015-01-12T04:51:24Z zyaku quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T04:52:46Z Hexstream: I was always a bit puzzled that the CLHS does not cross-reference its figures. Now here they are, all in one place (and with machine-readable versions for most of them): http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/notes-tips-standard-common-lisp-symbols/cross-references/clhs/figures/ 2015-01-12T04:54:39Z loke: Hexstream: woah 2015-01-12T05:00:17Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T05:02:31Z beach: Hexstream: Nice! 2015-01-12T05:03:08Z Hexstream: Thanks! 2015-01-12T05:04:08Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:04:08Z Hexstream: In case anyone wonders why the hell this didn't already exist, because it's a fairly obvious idea: this was quite a lot of tedious work to make. But I'm still glad I did! 2015-01-12T05:05:55Z loke: Hexstream: have you done the entire clhs noqw? 2015-01-12T05:06:12Z Hexstream: loke: Figures-wise, yes. 2015-01-12T05:06:26Z loke: Ah, but the function reference? 2015-01-12T05:06:35Z loke: (I'd kill for a machine-readable version of that) 2015-01-12T05:08:16Z Hexstream: Depends what you mean, but http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/notes-tips-standard-common-lisp-symbols/namespaces/operators/ cross-references all the operators, and you can click on "symbol names" links for machine-readable versions. 2015-01-12T05:08:20Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T05:08:27Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T05:13:11Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:14:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:18:20Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-12T05:24:03Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T05:26:12Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:26:26Z malbertife quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T05:29:45Z zRecursi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T05:30:34Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:33:07Z vlnx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T05:35:13Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T05:36:19Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:37:51Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:38:12Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T05:44:27Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-12T05:47:15Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T05:47:47Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T05:50:27Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:01:15Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:08:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:08:05Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T06:08:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:10:47Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:11:41Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:14:11Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:14:18Z russmatney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T06:15:39Z beach: Yay! SICL LOOP passes all tests for COUNT, MAXIMIZE, and MINIMIZE. 2015-01-12T06:16:23Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:18:53Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:22:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:22:49Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:23:28Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:26:41Z Guthur: Afternoon all, any word of a European Common Lisp Meetup this year? 2015-01-12T06:26:54Z Guthur: I know there is ELS in April 2015-01-12T06:28:09Z russmatney quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:28:55Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:29:27Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:29:44Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:33:27Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:34:32Z eli joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:34:33Z eli quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T06:34:33Z eli joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:36:40Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:39:42Z H4ns: eclm is unlikely to happen again 2015-01-12T06:40:35Z Guthur: H4ns: ah, shame 2015-01-12T06:40:44Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:40:49Z Guthur: H4ns: Difficult to find speakers? 2015-01-12T06:42:18Z H4ns: Guthur: yes. and as edi is not doing a lot of consulting anymore, the major source of speaker contacts is gone. 2015-01-12T06:43:27Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:44:54Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:45:55Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T06:46:31Z Guthur: well I hope Edi's layoff is by choice 2015-01-12T06:47:08Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:48:11Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:48:33Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:49:22Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:49:33Z heurist quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T06:49:33Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-01-12T06:49:36Z Guthur: H4ns: will you be making it to ELS this year? 2015-01-12T06:51:39Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T06:56:08Z foom joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:00:07Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-12T07:04:37Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T07:06:17Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:08:23Z heurist joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:08:41Z H4ns: yes and yes 2015-01-12T07:10:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:12:03Z Guthur: excellent, might see you there. I'll be coming to Europe around that time and hoping to catch a conference 2015-01-12T07:12:23Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:14:13Z Guthur: it will likely be ELS, unless I can find some compeling Data conference; the Data 2015, July in France, maybe 2015-01-12T07:15:09Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:15:47Z Guthur: actually thats DATA 2015, it's an acronym 2015-01-12T07:18:29Z goglosh quit (Quit: I should sleep or something) 2015-01-12T07:19:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:21:03Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T07:23:15Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T07:25:15Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:29:52Z russmatney quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T07:32:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:37:51Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-12T07:38:55Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:41:29Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T07:50:25Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:50:46Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:51:18Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:52:31Z jewel joined #lisp 2015-01-12T07:56:33Z Shinmera: minion: memo for encheladito: oAuth1 doesn't say anything about how to handle POST requests, so depending on the API things are going to differ. Figuring it out for twitter was one of the major headaches I've had while implementing Chirp. Chirp and by extension South can do it fine though. 2015-01-12T07:56:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell encheladito when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-01-12T07:58:31Z Shinmera: minion: memo for encheladito: See https://github.com/Shinmera/south/blob/master/oauth.lisp#L181 for how it has to work for twitter. I have no idea how it would translate to cl-oauth though. Part of the reason I wrote Chirp&South were because I really didn't like the alternatives. 2015-01-12T07:58:31Z minion: Remembered. 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2015-01-12T10:49:26Z Guthur: all three of those probably reduce the likelihood of finding someone to close to 0 2015-01-12T10:49:39Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-12T10:51:04Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T10:52:38Z ck_: I used to, but don't anymore 2015-01-12T10:54:09Z ferada: ck_: o/ 2015-01-12T10:55:00Z Guthur: ck_: you don't happen to have you setup to load the swank server perchance 2015-01-12T10:55:25Z Guthur: i'm getting Spawning Child process: Invalid Argument 2015-01-12T10:58:39Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T10:58:51Z ck_: I might have that on my old laptop, possibly 2015-01-12T10:59:52Z ck_: but I remember having to fiddle around with it when I went from Allegro 8.2 (?) to 9 2015-01-12T11:01:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:01:47Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:03:15Z Guthur: well i got it working by starting the swank server manually 2015-01-12T11:03:56Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:11:52Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:14:03Z eivarv quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T11:15:09Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T11:15:33Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:18:57Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:21:32Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T11:23:19Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:23:44Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T11:32:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T11:34:01Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:34:01Z Colleen__ is now known as Colleen 2015-01-12T11:34:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:38:01Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T11:38:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:38:13Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T11:38:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:39:47Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T11:40:16Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:42:11Z xan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:44:39Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:45:18Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:48:52Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T11:49:41Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T11:50:13Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T11:53:31Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-01-12T11:56:29Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T11:58:11Z Hache joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:58:43Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-01-12T11:59:33Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T12:01:17Z huza joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:02:55Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:04:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:05:27Z Patzy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T12:07:25Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:16:07Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T12:16:41Z Xach joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:19:46Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:20:49Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T12:21:18Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:21:39Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:23:00Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:24:21Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T12:28:00Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:29:24Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T12:30:13Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T12:34:28Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:35:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T12:39:10Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:40:02Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:43:38Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T12:44:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:52:40Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:52:48Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:57:39Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T12:58:20Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T12:59:12Z joast joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:06:14Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T13:10:52Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:12:49Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:13:39Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-12T13:13:43Z pranavrc quit 2015-01-12T13:14:19Z Ainieco joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:14:22Z Ainieco: hello 2015-01-12T13:14:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T13:16:26Z Ainieco: i'd like to create really thin wrapper macro around defstruct without sacrificing orginal defstruct functionality, how can i do that? 2015-01-12T13:16:55Z Xach: Ainieco: think about what syntax you want in your code, write a macro to translate from that syntax to defstruct. 2015-01-12T13:16:57Z Ainieco: just afraid that i'll create my wrapper in some ill manner which will hurt original defstruct 2015-01-12T13:17:11Z Xach: If that happens, adapt and continue 2015-01-12T13:17:21Z Xach: Don't be afraid! It's easy to try stuff! 2015-01-12T13:18:17Z Ainieco: Xach: i want exactly same synaxt as original defstruct has, the reason i need that macro is because i'd like to know names of my structs 2015-01-12T13:18:35Z Xach: Ainieco: why? 2015-01-12T13:19:04Z Ainieco: so i need to define methods for my-struct-name generics when new structs are defined 2015-01-12T13:19:36Z Xach: Why? 2015-01-12T13:20:19Z Ainieco: Xach: because currently i have functions (add "foo-struct-name" foo-struct) which feels redundant and i'd like refactor it to (add foo-struct) 2015-01-12T13:20:28Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:20:41Z Ainieco: foo struct is a sepcial kind of structs, i have lots of them 2015-01-12T13:21:28Z Xach: Ainieco: in that example, is foo-struct a value, an instance of that kind of struct? 2015-01-12T13:21:55Z Ainieco: Xach: yup, result of (make-foo-struct) 2015-01-12T13:22:53Z Xach: Ainieco: (type-of instance) will give you the symbol FOO-STRUCT, then. It's not far from there to creating "foo-struct-name", in ADD. 2015-01-12T13:23:07Z Ainieco: oh, that's cool, thanks! 2015-01-12T13:23:33Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T13:24:55Z ggole: Passing the type name in as a string is a bit strange 2015-01-12T13:24:58Z ggole: Why are you doing that? 2015-01-12T13:25:25Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T13:26:37Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:27:37Z Ainieco: because i have hash table "foo-struct" -> foo-struct 2015-01-12T13:28:35Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:28:58Z jdz: Ainieco: just out of curiosity -- why are you using structures instead of classes? 2015-01-12T13:29:22Z ggole: A table of strings to symbols? 2015-01-12T13:29:44Z Ainieco: jdz: because i haven't found any reason to use classes :) 2015-01-12T13:30:00Z Ainieco: for my use case that is 2015-01-12T13:30:06Z Shinmera: What's the reason to use structs then. 2015-01-12T13:30:30Z Shinmera: Might as well use classes and avoid the headaches of structs. 2015-01-12T13:31:13Z Ainieco: ggole: table of strings to instances of structs 2015-01-12T13:32:36Z Ainieco: Shinmera: structs are basic building blocks, there is no need to use cannon to kill a fly 2015-01-12T13:32:47Z Shinmera: Anarch: What you're doing is premature optimisation. 2015-01-12T13:32:53Z Shinmera: *Ainieco 2015-01-12T13:32:59Z Ainieco: lol 2015-01-12T13:34:29Z splittist: structs have a whole arcane structure of interlocking macros supporting them: CLOS classes are cleaner. (Or so one could argue.) 2015-01-12T13:34:45Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T13:34:52Z Shinmera: Classes also don't have the redefinition kludge of structs. 2015-01-12T13:34:56Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:37:45Z Shinmera: Ainieco: classes are just as much "basic building blocks" as structs are, or integers, or whatever else you may have. 2015-01-12T13:39:02Z Ainieco: Shinmera: they have more functionality which i don't use on top of them, there is no point in paying for something you don't need 2015-01-12T13:39:11Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:39:35Z Ainieco: they - classes* 2015-01-12T13:39:42Z Xach: Some things you can figure out only through experience. 2015-01-12T13:40:01Z Shinmera: Ainieco: You're always paying for everything. Paying a minimal amount of CPU time is completely dismissable compared to the annoying human resource time being wasted messing about with structs 2015-01-12T13:40:20Z Shinmera: But hey, do whatever you want. You already seem to have a reputation of not really listening to people's suggestions on here. 2015-01-12T13:40:26Z Ainieco: Shinmera: what is so annoying about structs? 2015-01-12T13:40:41Z splittist: Ainieco: you might also find that your intuitions about the overhead introduced by using classes is not accurate. 2015-01-12T13:40:48Z Ainieco: redefinition thing? 2015-01-12T13:41:08Z Shinmera: clhs defstruct 2015-01-12T13:41:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 2015-01-12T13:41:12Z Shinmera: "The consequences of redefining a defstruct structure are undefined." 2015-01-12T13:41:19Z Ainieco: so what? 2015-01-12T13:41:34Z Shinmera: So you can only define your struct once and not change it without potentially messing everything up. 2015-01-12T13:41:35Z Ainieco: i'm not going to update running code 2015-01-12T13:41:42Z H4ns: why learn from someone else if you can do so by making your own mistakes? 2015-01-12T13:41:43Z Shinmera: You are developing interactively. 2015-01-12T13:41:59Z jdz: Shinmera: that's your assumption :) 2015-01-12T13:42:11Z Ainieco: Shinmera: not really 2015-01-12T13:42:18Z Shinmera: jdz: Anything else would be insane, but I'm really not sure what to expect at this point. 2015-01-12T13:42:33Z Shinmera: Ainieco: Do you use slime or start a repl and go from there? If so, you develop interactively. 2015-01-12T13:42:37Z Ainieco: messing with lispkit currently and it's huge pita to use it with slime 2015-01-12T13:43:00Z Ainieco: because of segfaults and all other c crap 2015-01-12T13:43:37Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T13:43:40Z Ainieco: err, cl-webkit that is 2015-01-12T13:44:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:46:08Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T13:46:16Z Ainieco: Shinmera: anything else? 2015-01-12T13:46:40Z Shinmera: You may find out on your own, I'm not gonna bother. 2015-01-12T13:47:02Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:47:26Z Ainieco: well, you shouldn've started that rude behaviour of yours then in first place, grow up already 2015-01-12T13:47:53Z Xach: Ainieco: I think you have it reversed. 2015-01-12T13:47:54Z Shinmera: Thanks for the ad hominem 2015-01-12T13:47:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:48:01Z Shinmera: You may leave now 2015-01-12T13:48:36Z Ainieco: Xach: could you elaborate? 2015-01-12T13:49:06Z Xach: Ainieco: Rejecting valuable advice and experience on flimsy grounds is hardly a model of politeness. 2015-01-12T13:49:54Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:49:57Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T13:50:05Z Xach: It looks to me like a lesson you will accept through personal experience only. 2015-01-12T13:51:23Z Ainieco: Xach: at first i was accused of having some 'reputation' then i was indirectly called insane for not using slime(for good reason) i don't see how is it polite 2015-01-12T13:51:31Z Xach: At any rate, one easy way out of excessive helpfulness is to just say "I'll keep that in mind, thanks" and leave it at that. 2015-01-12T13:52:26Z Shinmera: You weren't "accused" of anything. I was reporting what my impression was and why, based on this, I didn't think that spending any more of my time providing explanations for free was a profitable strategy for me. 2015-01-12T13:52:54Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:53:36Z Ainieco: Xach: i tried to get something constructive out of him related to shortcomings of structs but get only redifinition thing which i'm aware of and don't really care about if that's it then okay, it totally worth being called insane 2015-01-12T13:53:40Z Ainieco: for such valuable piece of information 2015-01-12T13:54:05Z Xach: I'll keep that in mind, thanks. 2015-01-12T13:54:38Z H4ns: Ainieco: thing is: at some point, someone (likely you, but maybe someone else) may need to work with what you've written and need the flexibility of classes, only to find that you've decided to use structs just because you thought you knew better. 2015-01-12T13:55:43Z Cymew: Hey, use alists instead and everyone gets to be annoyed just as much and nobody gets hurt... 2015-01-12T13:56:14Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T13:56:51Z Cymew: Shinmera: Thanks for the reminder about redefining structs btw. I had not used structs in such a long time I had forgotten that oddity. 2015-01-12T13:57:08Z Cymew: Lots of "undefined" in the CLHS 2015-01-12T13:57:16Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T13:57:23Z tsumetai: Using structs is a good strategy for learning why one shouldn't use them. 2015-01-12T13:59:08Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:00:20Z Ainieco: H4ns: one may say that at some point it will happen, other may say that it not going to happen. neither if known. what is known is that programmers tend to overengineer sacrificing simplicity along the way 2015-01-12T14:00:49Z H4ns: Ainieco: I'll keep that in mind, thanks. 2015-01-12T14:00:52Z H4ns: Xach: thanks. 2015-01-12T14:01:46Z Xach is looking forward to London 2015-01-12T14:02:01Z jdz: Ainieco: i'd like to see your example of how using structs is any simpler than using classes 2015-01-12T14:02:13Z jdz is looking forward to meeting Xach in London 2015-01-12T14:02:17Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:03:49Z emlow quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-12T14:05:11Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:07:22Z psy_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-12T14:07:26Z Ainieco: jdz: it has more features than struct does, some goes when one says that cpp is more complex than c 2015-01-12T14:07:39Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:07:58Z jdz: Ainieco: i did not ask about your opinion on complexity 2015-01-12T14:08:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:08:55Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-01-12T14:08:57Z jdz: Ainieco: also, will you exist if i put you on ignore list? (in fear of you not getting the reference, why do you think that features you don't use incur any costs?) 2015-01-12T14:09:36Z psy_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:11:23Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T14:12:22Z wasamasa: clearly programmers know the cost of everything 2015-01-12T14:12:47Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:14:21Z Ainieco: jdz: that's simple even if you don't use features they still exist and may impose certain mental/speed overhead 2015-01-12T14:15:42Z jdz: Ainieco: structures also have features you will not be using 2015-01-12T14:16:36Z Jirachier quit 2015-01-12T14:16:52Z Ainieco: jdz: and their amount is lesser than for features of clos i'm not going to use, obviously because struct have overall less features ;) 2015-01-12T14:16:52Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T14:18:22Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:21:12Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:22:00Z Ainieco going to stay away from that zealous clos camp 2015-01-12T14:23:01Z tsumetai: :) 2015-01-12T14:26:08Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T14:27:04Z Ainieco is now known as samui 2015-01-12T14:27:13Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T14:34:33Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:36:11Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T14:36:37Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:37:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T14:39:03Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T14:40:15Z ktt9 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T14:40:37Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:41:00Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:41:24Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T14:41:45Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-01-12T14:42:15Z eivindaa joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:42:37Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-12T14:43:20Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:43:23Z minion joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:43:39Z eivarv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T14:43:40Z moei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T14:44:04Z moei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:45:35Z intinig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T14:45:44Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:46:16Z eivindaa quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T14:46:38Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-01-12T14:48:13Z russmatney quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T14:54:16Z emlow joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:01:30Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:05:49Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:08:06Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-12T15:08:38Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:08:43Z drinkcoffee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:09:36Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:09:48Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:13:59Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:15:24Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:15:41Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:15:57Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T15:18:34Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:21:58Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:22:05Z chu quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T15:22:11Z sbryant joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:22:30Z chu joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:23:13Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:24:23Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:24:33Z RenRenJuan quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T15:25:26Z emlow quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-12T15:25:52Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:26:35Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:27:02Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T15:28:11Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:28:35Z cmack is now known as Guest95612 2015-01-12T15:28:51Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T15:29:34Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:32:13Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:36:04Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T15:36:39Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:37:16Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:39:22Z xyh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:39:26Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:42:30Z the_real_intinig is now known as intinig 2015-01-12T15:42:39Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T15:43:05Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:45:33Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:48:49Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-12T15:49:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T15:52:55Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T15:53:17Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-12T15:57:06Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:00:50Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:04:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:04:47Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:05:51Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-12T16:07:33Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:08:41Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:09:21Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-12T16:37:18Z pjb: minion: memo for Ainieco: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Improved-DEFSTRUCT-macro--run-time-access-to-the-fields for 3 examples. 2015-01-12T16:37:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Ainieco when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-01-12T16:38:11Z samui is now known as Ainieco 2015-01-12T16:39:37Z Ainieco: pjb: thanks! 2015-01-12T16:39:37Z minion: Ainieco, memo from pjb: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Improved-DEFSTRUCT-macro--run-time-access-to-the-fields for 3 examples. 2015-01-12T16:39:53Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T16:40:21Z Ainieco: what does he talking about here http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sBcPNr1CKKw#t=749 ? what is this lisp statistical performance analyzer? 2015-01-12T16:40:40Z pjb: Probably a stockastic profiler. 2015-01-12T16:40:43Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-12T16:40:49Z jangle joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:41:08Z Ainieco: he says if i use that analyzer i would get timing annotation in disasm output 2015-01-12T16:41:15Z pjb: Yes, that's it. 2015-01-12T16:41:46Z Ainieco: pjb: do you know how can i enable it per chance? 2015-01-12T16:41:49Z pjb: Use it with M-x slime-profile-package, run some code, then M-x slime-profile-report 2015-01-12T16:42:41Z Ainieco: pjb: great, thank you 2015-01-12T16:42:50Z jangle: anyone use the cl-gtk2-gtk pacakge on osk, using the macports glib2 package? 2015-01-12T16:43:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:43:45Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T16:44:21Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:44:34Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T16:44:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:45:08Z pjb: Ainieco: It's not clear from the discussion what you really wanted to archive. What was the use of the hash-table? Why do you need those foo-struct-name methods? 2015-01-12T16:45:13Z a-noobie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-12T16:45:34Z jangle: when I load the package, I get an error that the dylibs can't be found. I then modify the cffi:*foreign-library-directories* to include the macports lib install dir, and I still get the error 2015-01-12T16:45:44Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:46:08Z pjb: jangle: perhaps it wants a specific version? 2015-01-12T16:46:48Z jangle: pjb: perhaps, but the package looks for a specific filename, which corresponds to the filename found in the macports package and is currently located. 2015-01-12T16:47:27Z oleo: hello 2015-01-12T16:47:36Z jangle: pjb: I'm currently trying to figure out how to get better error messages for this step 2015-01-12T16:48:12Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:48:13Z pjb: Once I had the problem (not on OSX, but it could be similar with ports), that the library wasn't the actual library, but a text file redirecting it. This was handled by the GNU loader, but not by the lisp one. 2015-01-12T16:48:26Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-12T16:49:10Z pjb: Ainieco: one often overlooked feature of structures, is that they have single inherting. Perhaps you could have a name field in a super-"structure class", and all your foo structures could inherit from it. 2015-01-12T16:49:25Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T16:49:27Z Ainieco: pjb: ah, nevermind, Xach told me exactly what i wanted - type-of 2015-01-12T16:49:38Z pjb: good. 2015-01-12T16:49:49Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-12T16:50:08Z pjb: Ainieco: notice that knowing the type of a structure doesn't help much. 2015-01-12T16:50:25Z pjb: You cannot build a constructor because (defstruct (s (:constructor whatever))) 2015-01-12T16:50:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T16:50:43Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:50:45Z pjb: You cannot build a field function because (defstruct (s (:conc-name whatever-))) 2015-01-12T16:50:54Z pjb: etc. 2015-01-12T16:51:18Z Ainieco: pjb: i just wanted to refactor (add "foo-struct" foo-struct-instace) to (add foo-struct-instance) type-of gives me name of struct and allows me to perform such refactoring 2015-01-12T16:51:20Z pjb: unless, you keep all the meta information needed. 2015-01-12T16:51:29Z Ainieco: that's all i needed :) 2015-01-12T16:51:38Z pjb: ok. 2015-01-12T16:53:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2015-01-12T16:53:57Z enfors_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T16:56:04Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T17:00:03Z Ainieco: pjb: hm, i profiled my package, watched profile report but when i'm C-c M-d on function of interest it still desasembles function without any addition information 2015-01-12T17:00:43Z Ainieco: pjb: i'm not really sure what that guy on video meant, just curious what additional information disasembly could provide after profiling 2015-01-12T17:02:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:03:38Z pjb: perhaps it works only in some specific implementation? 2015-01-12T17:05:31Z enfors joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:05:56Z Ainieco: pjb: probably, using sbcl myself but not sure what that guy is using 2015-01-12T17:07:01Z Ainieco: ah, he is using sbcl too 2015-01-12T17:07:24Z pjb: Perhaps you need to load the slime-sprof contrib, if it's not done automatically? 2015-01-12T17:07:38Z pjb: slime has optional contribs. 2015-01-12T17:08:56Z Ainieco: pjb: i see, thanks for mentioning that, i didn't know about it 2015-01-12T17:10:17Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:12:29Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:12:39Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:14:19Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:14:41Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:14:54Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:17:31Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:21:14Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-12T17:22:42Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:25:59Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:26:37Z malice joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:26:38Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:28:35Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T17:29:16Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:32:04Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:34:53Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:36:43Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:37:04Z whartung quit (Quit: whartung) 2015-01-12T17:39:08Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:39:36Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:40:22Z hrs quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T17:40:22Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:40:56Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T17:41:21Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:41:35Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:43:34Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:43:53Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:44:43Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:44:45Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-12T17:45:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T17:47:48Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:48:02Z russmatney quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T17:50:12Z shka joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:50:18Z shka: good evening 2015-01-12T17:50:27Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:51:03Z shka: can someone recommend any good example on bt conditions usage? 2015-01-12T17:52:53Z White_Flame: that's pretty broad. What exactly are you trying to do? 2015-01-12T17:53:10Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-12T17:54:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T17:54:48Z innertracks1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:56:27Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T17:57:44Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:00:28Z shka: White_Flame: basicly halt thread until something lands in the queue 2015-01-12T18:01:34Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:02:07Z White_Flame: oh, condition variables, not raised conditions 2015-01-12T18:03:09Z pjb: shka: this follows very closely the pthread conditions and mutexes. So if you read up about that, you'll be ok. 2015-01-12T18:03:34Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:05:38Z pjb: shka: I've got an example in https://gitorious.org/patchwork/mclgui/source/be45944215b60e7a80d16f78b489a342768e9958:mailbox.lisp 2015-01-12T18:05:51Z White_Flame: yep. The examples I have would be behind a bunchof infrastructure 2015-01-12T18:06:08Z pjb: shka: lock = pthread_mutex. 2015-01-12T18:06:16Z White_Flame: we never use those raw, but create tools like barriers, guarded values, etc 2015-01-12T18:06:25Z pjb: White_Flame: why? you would use them only to implement abstractions. 2015-01-12T18:06:38Z pjb: Exactly. 2015-01-12T18:06:53Z pjb: Oh, you mean behind = implement. 2015-01-12T18:07:08Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-01-12T18:07:59Z White_Flame: shka: the weird thing for beginners is that you'll often use both a lock and a condition variable in tandem, not just the condition var 2015-01-12T18:08:41Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:08:42Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:10:04Z shka: White_Flame: that's what seems to be interesting 2015-01-12T18:10:12Z alusion joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:10:13Z shka: but hey, it makes sense i guess 2015-01-12T18:10:15Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:10:32Z shka: pjb: thank you very much :) 2015-01-12T18:12:14Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:12:30Z dim: A SB-KERNEL::HEAP-EXHAUSTED-ERROR condition without bindings for heap statistics. (If you did not expect to see this message, please report it. 2015-01-12T18:12:40Z White_Flame: shka: here's the simplest example of waiting on a cv we have: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145190 2015-01-12T18:12:40Z dim: seems I have an easy enough test case to reproduce it even 2015-01-12T18:13:41Z shka: White_Flame: great! thanks 2015-01-12T18:14:34Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:15:31Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T18:16:54Z whartung joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:17:19Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:18:20Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:18:36Z Hache quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T18:18:48Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:21:35Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:23:09Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:23:19Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:24:24Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T18:25:15Z Ukari quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-12T18:27:29Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:28:15Z alusion quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-12T18:31:02Z shka: White_Flame: any reason to not write macro that would expand to the with-lock and condition-wait? 2015-01-12T18:31:14Z shka: at the same time, that's it 2015-01-12T18:31:45Z pjb: There's no reason to duplicate code all over the place. 2015-01-12T18:34:15Z White_Flame: shka: inlining that function would have the same effect 2015-01-12T18:34:40Z shka: yeah 2015-01-12T18:34:54Z shka: but inline can be ignored 2015-01-12T18:34:55Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T18:35:00Z shka: which is pitty 2015-01-12T18:38:43Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:39:52Z White_Flame: as pjb points out, many with- blocks can be pretty heavyweight 2015-01-12T18:40:10Z White_Flame: not sure what this specific example expands to 2015-01-12T18:40:37Z White_Flame: the battle between cache reuse and shorter code is an unpredictable one 2015-01-12T18:40:54Z pjb: when you have too much to do in a macro, you can often call out functions from their expansion. 2015-01-12T18:41:12Z White_Flame: shorter as in the number of runtime asm instructions, which is shortened by inlining, but increases cache pressure 2015-01-12T18:41:20Z pjb: tipically: (defmacro with-something (options &body body) `(call-with-something ',options (lambda () ,@body))) 2015-01-12T18:41:36Z White_Flame: yep 2015-01-12T18:43:14Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-12T18:44:01Z rotty_ is now known as rotty 2015-01-12T18:44:09Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:48:03Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:48:23Z shka: pjb: yeah, i know 2015-01-12T18:48:32Z shka: it is suprisingly usefull 2015-01-12T18:52:55Z jasom: shka: IIRC sbcl hardly ever (never?) ignores inline, to the point where it can be a pain 2015-01-12T18:54:13Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:54:52Z CrazyWoods: Are McCLIM still under develop? 2015-01-12T18:54:56Z ferada: apropos inline, does acl inline on any settings? 2015-01-12T18:56:22Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:57:40Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:58:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-12T18:58:34Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T18:58:57Z russmatney joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:03:43Z russmatney quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:04:28Z wccoder quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T19:04:35Z wccoder_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:07:04Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:07:55Z cods joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:09:53Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:11:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:11:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T19:11:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:12:34Z Guest95612 is now known as cmack 2015-01-12T19:14:49Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:16:42Z Baggers joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:16:51Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:17:21Z hekmek quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-12T19:17:44Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:17:44Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T19:17:44Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:17:44Z cods joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:17:48Z toors joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:17:52Z jangle: pjb: figured it out. the values of cffi:*foreign-library-directories* need to be a list 2015-01-12T19:18:30Z scymtym: i think drakma's :force-binary t stopped working since version 1.3.10 (to reproduce, try http://paste.lisp.org/display/145192#1). how does http://paste.lisp.org/display/145192 look for a fix? 2015-01-12T19:19:35Z mrkkrp: what's differentce between ensure-cons and ensure-list in alexandria ? 2015-01-12T19:20:28Z Shinmera: NIL is a list, but not a cons. 2015-01-12T19:21:10Z mrkkrp: Shinmera: thanks! 2015-01-12T19:21:14Z toors quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-12T19:21:32Z toors joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:22:18Z jangle: i'm developing on osx, and I use macports to get my dependencies for use in common lisp cffi packages. I am constantly having to modify the cffi:*foreign-library-directories* to point to the macports lib installation directory. Does anyone know what I can do to make cffi look in this place without me having to specify it every time I go to use a pacakge? 2015-01-12T19:23:27Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:24:22Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:25:59Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:26:18Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:28:08Z pjb: Perhaps configuring LD_LIBRARY_PATH ? 2015-01-12T19:31:15Z jangle: in point of fact, I did recently change shells and must not have moved this guy over 2015-01-12T19:31:55Z mrkkrp: what's wrong with alexandria's compose? (lambda (x) (f1 (f2 x))) => no warnings, (compose #'f1 #'f2) => unable to optimize due to type uncertainty ... I thought that these two functions should be identical 2015-01-12T19:33:07Z jaimef joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:33:17Z Bicyclidine: mrkkrp: is that a warning or just a type note? 2015-01-12T19:33:36Z mrkkrp: it's a note 2015-01-12T19:34:02Z Bicyclidine: well, nothing wrong with it, then. when you write the composition yourself the compiler gets to work on it 2015-01-12T19:34:15Z mrkkrp: so it cannot optimize it either way? 2015-01-12T19:34:46Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:35:01Z Bicyclidine: it optimizes it more in the former case, probably. 2015-01-12T19:35:30Z mrkkrp: Bicyclidine: how would you write it? 2015-01-12T19:35:39Z Bicyclidine: i'd use alexandria:compose 2015-01-12T19:35:49Z Bicyclidine: and maybe put some type declarations on f1 and f2, since there's a compiler macro anyway 2015-01-12T19:36:10Z mrkkrp: Bicyclidine: ok, thanks 2015-01-12T19:36:43Z ivan4th: Wrote an MQTT driver for cl-async https://github.com/ivan4th/cl-mqtt Perhaps announcement is a bit premature as it depends on a couple of pull requests orthecreedence didn't merge yet, but unfortunately I only remembered that after making a reddit post ... 2015-01-12T19:37:20Z ivan4th: (I use MQTT for home automation tasks) 2015-01-12T19:37:29Z Xach: nice. 2015-01-12T19:37:46Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:37:59Z jaimef` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:39:49Z jaimef quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:40:30Z ivan4th: MQTT is basically such a simple beast that you can run it on your Arduinos etc., yet it uses rather convenient pubsub concept unlike dumb polling protocols like MODBUS 2015-01-12T19:40:52Z ivan4th: It can be also bridged to AMQP via RabbitMQ 2015-01-12T19:42:26Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:44:04Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:44:31Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:44:44Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:47:58Z jangle quit (Quit: jangle) 2015-01-12T19:48:52Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:48:55Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:49:13Z pjb: mrkkrp: you may use the MACRO com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:compose instead of the FUNCTION alexandria:compose. 2015-01-12T19:49:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:51:10Z _death: my guess is it outputs the type note because there's an optimize (speed 3) declaration in the compiler macro 2015-01-12T19:51:43Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-12T19:51:54Z mrkkrp: _death, yes, I've already noticed it 2015-01-12T19:53:16Z vdamewood quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-12T19:53:37Z mrkkrp: what is the point of compiler macro functions? 2015-01-12T19:53:52Z pjb: optimize function calls. 2015-01-12T19:54:34Z Bicyclidine: without the compiler macro your code would call the compose function at runtime every time even if the arguments (and thus result) are constant 2015-01-12T19:54:44Z pjb: For example, if you have two functions, f and g, such as (f (g x)) = x for some kind of x, you can write a compiler macro for f that will detect that you are giving it (g x) and that x is of the given kind, so it can expand instead to x. 2015-01-12T19:56:02Z goglosh quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-12T19:57:14Z White_Flame: "Unlike an ordinary macro, a compiler macro can decline to provide an expansion merely by returning a form that is the same as the original" 2015-01-12T19:57:16Z nydel: pjb: off-hand do you've an example of that in practical action? e.g. link to source 2015-01-12T19:57:38Z White_Flame: so it's in addition to other functions (or macros) that laready exist as a naive backing form 2015-01-12T19:57:58Z Ainieco: usually i do specify types of struct fields, what type should field containing lambda have? 2015-01-12T19:58:08Z pjb: nydel: check alexandria:compose itself! 2015-01-12T19:58:26Z nydel: ha i'm already browsing alexandria, my goto for stuff-i-should-already-know 2015-01-12T19:58:32Z nydel: thanks 2015-01-12T19:58:37Z _death: Ainieco: function 2015-01-12T19:58:50Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T19:58:51Z Ainieco: _death: that's simple, thank you! 2015-01-12T19:59:26Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:00:05Z pjb: you can declare types: (deftype my-func () `(function (integer integer) (vector integer 2 ))) 2015-01-12T20:00:14Z nydel: compiler macros are part of cl standard? or implemented in the popular repls 2015-01-12T20:00:23Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:00:31Z White_Flame: mrkkrp: compiler macros can also transform setf function usages 2015-01-12T20:00:38Z pjb: standard 2015-01-12T20:00:49Z nydel: oh wait i get it now, they /have/ to be part of cl standard, it's unavoidable. 2015-01-12T20:01:07Z Ainieco: pjb: that's cool, thanks for tip 2015-01-12T20:01:47Z Bicyclidine: though compiler macros are often unused. ccl even has a small compliance bug. 2015-01-12T20:02:09Z Guthur joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:02:17Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:02:19Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:02:23Z pjb: Ainieco: notice that deftype defines parameterized types: (deftype opfun (argtype) `(function (,argtype ,argtype) ,argtype)) --> (declaim (ftype opfun my+ my*)) 2015-01-12T20:02:29Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:02:32Z nydel: if #'define-compiler-macro wasn't part of spec, we would write it in as a function right? as in opposition to macro 2015-01-12T20:03:00Z White_Flame: nydel: it'd have to be part of the implementation's compiler 2015-01-12T20:03:10Z mrkkrp: what's (declare (dynamic-extent arguments)) for? 2015-01-12T20:03:18Z _death: Ainieco: another tip, if the slot can be nil (e.g., you don't provide a default function) remember you want (or null function) 2015-01-12T20:03:25Z pjb: It says that the arguments are not used after we exit the scope. 2015-01-12T20:03:44Z nydel: White_Flame: is that to say it can't be redefined? for giggles obviously, i have no intention of so doing. 2015-01-12T20:03:45Z White_Flame: nydel: Because it has a &body, it makes sense to define it as a macro itself if it idn't exist 2015-01-12T20:04:06Z Ainieco: _death: thanks 2015-01-12T20:04:07Z Bicyclidine: nydel: you could define it but the compiler wouldn't know to use your compiler macros. 2015-01-12T20:04:20Z nydel: White_Flame: yes i was thinking it needs to be a macro that depends on a function 2015-01-12T20:04:32Z nydel: ohh right. 2015-01-12T20:04:34Z White_Flame: mrkkrp: it can allow an implementation to allocate some variables on the cpu stack instead of the nursery 2015-01-12T20:04:41Z mrkkrp: pjb, arguments is lexical variable 2015-01-12T20:05:06Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T20:05:16Z pjb: Indeed. But consider: (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (lambda () x)) 2015-01-12T20:05:42Z pjb: in this case, the value allocated for x can be used outside of the let: (let ((f (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (lambda () x)))) (first (funcall f))) 2015-01-12T20:05:55Z mrkkrp: but there is no closure: (lambda (&rest arguments) (declare (...)) ...) 2015-01-12T20:05:58Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:06:21Z Ainieco: pjb: shouldn't declaim part be *declare* instead? 2015-01-12T20:06:22Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:06:25Z Bicyclidine: that's why it's dynamic extent 2015-01-12T20:06:27Z White_Flame: even (let ((x (list 1 2 3)) .. x), the list remains live even after the scope is gone 2015-01-12T20:06:38Z pjb: declare dynamic-extent is a promise you're giving to the compiler that you're not doing that, so it may free the storage of the data when the lexical scope exits. 2015-01-12T20:06:59Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:07:04Z Bicyclidine: on real machines this means using stack automatic memory rather than heap automatic memory, which is loads simpler 2015-01-12T20:07:09Z pjb: Ainieco: it was a toplevel form. So declaim. 2015-01-12T20:07:23Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T20:07:36Z Ainieco: pjb: ah, i see, thanks for explanation 2015-01-12T20:07:38Z pjb: Ainieco: declare can only be used where it is expected to be used. 2015-01-12T20:08:06Z Ainieco: yeah, got it now 2015-01-12T20:09:24Z nydel: re optimization techniques in cl, are there any standout writings one shouldn't miss? & links thereto? 2015-01-12T20:10:01Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:10:09Z Pastaf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T20:10:35Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:10:53Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:11:15Z jaimef` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T20:11:18Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:11:21Z jaimef` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:12:09Z Ainieco quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-12T20:12:18Z pjb quit (Excess Flood) 2015-01-12T20:13:00Z mrkkrp: can't get it. arguments is an 'automatic' variable. compiler should be clever enough to place it on stack... so, if it cannot detect such simple cases I wonder how GC does its work... there not so many ways to create a closure 2015-01-12T20:13:28Z White_Flame: it's not about the variable, it's about its referenced contents 2015-01-12T20:14:27Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:14:41Z mrkkrp: White_Flame: that makes sense 2015-01-12T20:16:57Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:17:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:18:32Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:19:26Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T20:19:45Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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But if instead you can compute symbolically the formula corresponding to its trajectory, you may compute the final position directly. 2015-01-12T20:32:43Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-12T20:32:46Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:32:56Z pjb: Another example could be the use of lisp made by mathematicians: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00708763 2015-01-12T20:33:31Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:33:41Z eivarv joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:34:31Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:35:43Z nydel: pjb: awesome. ps your answers are the things i use to try to model how i answer questions (ones in my league) 2015-01-12T20:36:30Z xan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-12T20:36:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:37:18Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-12T20:37:32Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:38:07Z rtoym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T20:38:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:38:36Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:38:52Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:39:52Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:40:00Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-12T20:40:14Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:40:43Z nand1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T20:40:49Z nand1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:41:11Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:43:17Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:44:11Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:45:02Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:48:13Z blahzik joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:49:04Z ggole quit 2015-01-12T20:49:33Z nuk3 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:52:37Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:52:39Z nuk3 left #lisp 2015-01-12T20:53:00Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:54:52Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:55:01Z shka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-12T20:55:20Z Xach: The best kind of correct: technically! 2015-01-12T20:58:28Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T20:58:28Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:58:28Z wccoder_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T20:58:42Z wccoder joined #lisp 2015-01-12T20:59:07Z nydel: man, writing a client/server of complexity in CL has all sorts of surprises, but one i really can't figure out is how to tell the client not to echo the password when doing the client-to-server-API login. 2015-01-12T20:59:50Z pjb: If you're doing querying with the standard CL I/O operators, there's no way. 2015-01-12T21:00:37Z pjb: You could use ncurses (cl-curses or cl-charms) to implement a function to read the password without echoing portably. 2015-01-12T21:01:37Z pjb: Or perhaps more simply, iolib would let you perform raw I/O on the terminal. 2015-01-12T21:03:15Z jsnell_: call out to ssh-askpass 2015-01-12T21:03:52Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:05:11Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:06:24Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:06:47Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep) 2015-01-12T21:07:25Z abbe_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:07:49Z alexherbo2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-12T21:08:39Z abbe quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-12T21:08:56Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:08:59Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:09:03Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:09:24Z abbe_ is now known as abbe 2015-01-12T21:10:11Z nydel: what if one is only able to connect from another common lisp? now i can't tell if that would help or hinder. 2015-01-12T21:10:15Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:10:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-12T21:10:15Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T21:10:15Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:10:38Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:10:43Z nydel: i remember doing this before and finding the answer in the telnet rfc... something about TERMECHO maybe 2015-01-12T21:11:52Z dlowe: sure but that only works with telnet clients 2015-01-12T21:11:56Z dlowe: not on standard I/O 2015-01-12T21:12:11Z dlowe: a server can send a DONT ECHO and DO ECHO 2015-01-12T21:12:12Z nydel: oh this is what it was https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rfced-exp-atmar-00 2015-01-12T21:12:39Z nydel: dlowe: right. so does this mean that any telnet library written in CL fails to hide the password as it's entered? 2015-01-12T21:12:49Z pjb: You can use iolib.termios:stty: https://github.com/marsijanin/iolib.termios/blob/master/wrappers.lisp#L121 2015-01-12T21:12:54Z Subfusc_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:13:09Z dlowe: nydel: no. There's a telnet protocol that involves sending bytes on a socket. 2015-01-12T21:13:46Z dlowe: there's no comparable protocol for controlling ttys 2015-01-12T21:13:47Z nydel: dlowe: that's how it does, okay, because i thought i remembered doing it before. 2015-01-12T21:13:58Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:14:06Z kjeldahl quit (*.net *.split) 2015-01-12T21:14:06Z Subfusc quit (*.net *.split) 2015-01-12T21:14:06Z Subfusc_ is now known as Subfusc 2015-01-12T21:14:14Z rtra quit (Quit: "") 2015-01-12T21:14:22Z nydel: thank you pjb this is nuts and will take me a good few hours to decipher 2015-01-12T21:14:24Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-12T21:14:38Z pjb: nydel: there are the ECHO and SUPPRESS-LOCAL-ECHO options in telnet, indeed. 2015-01-12T21:15:12Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:16:21Z dlowe: wonder what the latter is intended for 2015-01-12T21:16:41Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:16:53Z pjb: dlowe: with telnet, the echo can be performed by the client, or by the server. 2015-01-12T21:16:53Z nydel joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:17:04Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-12T21:17:13Z pjb: Usually, in line mode, it's the client that will perform echo, while in character mode, it's the server. 2015-01-12T21:17:28Z dlowe: sure, but sending IAC DONT ECHO to the client works fine as far as I can tell 2015-01-12T21:18:36Z nydel: i may write a popup login using :ltk then i can control it that way 2015-01-12T21:18:37Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:19:11Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:19:22Z nydel: gives me an excuse to check whether the client has x11 or not 2015-01-12T21:20:11Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:20:14Z PuercoPop: btw pjb if you don't mind me asking, is there any reason you don't submit your libraries to ql? The VFS you linked to a while back seemed really useful for when testing for example. 2015-01-12T21:21:04Z nydel: PuercoPop: fun question, let's see how pjb words "i'm too cool for school" 2015-01-12T21:21:07Z pjb: PuercoPop: Just type: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago) 2015-01-12T21:21:26Z dlowe: Okay, as far I can tell, ECHO was supplanted by the considerably more complex RCTE command, and then SUPPRESS-LOCAL-ECHO was made to simplify the common case. 2015-01-12T21:21:32Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:21:55Z PuercoPop: You are right, my bad! 2015-01-12T21:21:58Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:22:08Z pjb: I couldn't say, I've swapped out telnet RFCs for now. 2015-01-12T21:22:10Z eni_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:22:42Z gtasso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:23:50Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-12T21:25:12Z rtra quit (Quit: "") 2015-01-12T21:27:55Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:28:28Z jaimef` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:28:28Z White_Flame: I'm finally going to try out paredit. I know, long overdue. What is the preferred way to install it & keep it updated, as the canonical source seems to be a bare web directory? 2015-01-12T21:28:49Z H4ns: M-x package-install CR paredit CR 2015-01-12T21:29:10Z White_Flame: ok, thanks 2015-01-12T21:29:36Z jaimef` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:30:18Z jaimef` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:30:39Z White_Flame: well, there's no M-x package-install. My emacs might be old 2015-01-12T21:33:52Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T21:34:17Z White_Flame punts on that installation method until this box is upgraded (whichis desparately needed, anyway) 2015-01-12T21:36:02Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1) 2015-01-12T21:38:23Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:42:05Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:42:43Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:43:56Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:46:32Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-12T21:48:16Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:50:48Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-12T21:57:26Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-12T22:01:12Z Guthur quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-12T22:01:20Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:02:52Z nydel: y'all see the noti for cl-ansi-term? dammit all, it actually looks like a good project. but i won't get involved because it's not called :ansi-term like it shoudl be. 2015-01-12T22:03:03Z nydel: s/shoudl/should/g 2015-01-12T22:03:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:04:26Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:04:40Z Ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T22:04:40Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:07:09Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:10:11Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:10:26Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-12T22:11:36Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:12:33Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T22:12:52Z Rptx joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:14:20Z jocuman quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-01-12T22:16:26Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:18:45Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T22:19:48Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:20:08Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:23:04Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:25:34Z eni_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T22:27:36Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T22:27:52Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-12T22:29:36Z jocuman joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:31:29Z zyaku joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:33:42Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T22:34:04Z b3taf1sh joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:41:36Z playnu_com_ar_ joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:42:09Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-12T22:46:52Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:50:09Z hzp joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:52:38Z arnaudga quit (Quit: Quitte) 2015-01-12T22:53:35Z playnu_com_ar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T22:54:00Z a-noobie quit (Quit: Page closed) 2015-01-12T22:54:22Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:55:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:55:31Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2015-01-12T22:55:31Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2015-01-12T22:55:50Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-12T22:57:00Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2015-01-12T22:59:34Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T23:01:16Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-12T23:02:43Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-12T23:03:51Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T23:04:21Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-01-12T23:04:42Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-01-12T23:05:03Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-12T23:05:14Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-12T23:05:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T23:05:53Z mrkkrp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-12T23:06:20Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-12T23:08:11Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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