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2015-01-11T04:22:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-11T04:35:15Z drmeister: Good morning beach
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2015-01-11T04:37:11Z akkad: morning beach
2015-01-11T04:37:14Z drmeister: I've been working to push out a new release of Clasp that supports ASDF, SLIME and Quicklisp.  It also supports weak-key-hash-tables in both the Boehm and MPS garbage collectors - which I use for source-position tracking in my compiler.
2015-01-11T04:37:34Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2015-01-11T04:37:41Z akkad: nice
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2015-01-11T04:39:10Z drmeister: Yes - now it's a real, albeit slow programming environment.   I wanted a better programming environment when I integrated Cleavir.  I was really tired of the *inferior-lisp* repl in emacs.   I'm repeating myself.
2015-01-11T04:39:34Z beach: You mean SLIME?
2015-01-11T04:40:29Z drmeister: Yes.  SLIME was the highest priority.  But I needed ASDF for Cleavir.  Once I had those two it only took a couple of days to add Quicklisp support.
2015-01-11T04:41:19Z beach: You are moving quite fast.
2015-01-11T04:41:21Z drmeister: Mimicking the implementation dependent details of ECL paid off.
2015-01-11T04:41:55Z drmeister: Thank you.
2015-01-11T04:42:17Z drmeister: I get a lot of help and advice from my friends.
2015-01-11T04:42:25Z drmeister: Here on #lisp that is.
2015-01-11T04:42:45Z beach: Yes, I have noticed.  They are very helpful.
2015-01-11T04:43:03Z drmeister: How are things going with your LOOP macro?
2015-01-11T04:43:11Z beach: Almost done.
2015-01-11T04:43:41Z beach: I have THEREIS, ALWAYS, and NEVER left, basically.  Those are easy too.
2015-01-11T04:44:00Z drmeister: I'm still not comfortable writing LOOP macros - I've been forcing myself to use it more.
2015-01-11T04:44:06Z beach: I need more comments and better error reporting, but it will be usable soon.
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2015-01-11T04:45:26Z drmeister: Do you have any insight as to why the designers used such a non-lispy syntax?
2015-01-11T04:45:33Z beach: I decided early on that LOOP was going to be used everywhere in SICL, but I have been relying on the host LOOP macro all this time.  Now I really need SICL LOOP in order to make progress, so I have to finish it.
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2015-01-11T04:45:52Z beach: drmeister: I have no idea.
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2015-01-11T04:46:05Z beach: Maybe they wanted to test the power of Common Lisp macros.
2015-01-11T04:46:34Z drmeister: What do you think of ITERATE?  Have you seen it?
2015-01-11T04:46:46Z beach: I have seen it.
2015-01-11T04:46:51Z Hexstream: drmeister: Being uncomfortable about LOOP is a sign of sanity. :)
2015-01-11T04:47:09Z beach: SICL LOOP is going to take around 5000 lines to implement, so it's a big macro.
2015-01-11T04:47:26Z drmeister: Is there any value to it?   I read the "Don't LOOP, ITERATE!" paper a couple of years ago.
2015-01-11T04:47:57Z Hexstream: drmeister: Iterate is a welcome improvement over LOOP, but still cast in the same monolithic mold...
2015-01-11T04:47:57Z drmeister: I was surprised to hear recently here in #lisp that ITERATE incorporates a code walker.    Does LOOP utilize a code-walker?
2015-01-11T04:48:08Z |3b| prefers LOOP, i find the separation of 'looping' logic from 'body' logic useful
2015-01-11T04:48:34Z beach: drmeister: No, LOOP doesn't require a code walker.
2015-01-11T04:48:54Z drmeister: Hexstream: I see.
2015-01-11T04:49:13Z drmeister: |3b| - that's an interesting thought.  Could you elaborate?
2015-01-11T04:49:42Z drmeister: The body logic are S-expressions and the looping logic is the LOOP keywords?
2015-01-11T04:49:43Z Hexstream: Personally I completely stopped using LOOP years ago, and I find that it has helped me appreciate other parts of the language better, such as for example the mapping operators.
2015-01-11T04:49:51Z |3b|: something like that
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2015-01-11T04:50:46Z drmeister: Hexstream: Do you use iterate?  Or do you use mapping, DO, DO*, DOTIMES, DOLIST?
2015-01-11T04:51:32Z Hexstream: I use neither LOOP nor iterate. I sometimes use DO. DOTIMES and DOLIST as appropriate...
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2015-01-11T04:52:09Z drmeister: Hexstream: Hmmm - that's what I've been doing up until recently when I started forcing myself to use LOOP.
2015-01-11T04:52:56Z Hexstream: Also, multiple-value mapping is awesome for some things. :) (http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/libraries/multiple-value-variants/#mapcar)
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2015-01-11T04:55:52Z pjb: well, one problem with loop, is that you soon start to use :with instead of let, and :if :else etc, and all your functions contain but a single loop form…
2015-01-11T04:56:40Z pjb: (loop repeat 1 if (= a b) do (print 'equal) else do (print 'not-equal))
2015-01-11T04:56:46Z beach: Using WITH instead of a LET saves 2 precious indentation columns.
2015-01-11T04:57:05Z pjb: As if that should matter at all!
2015-01-11T04:57:12Z beach: Oh, it does.
2015-01-11T04:57:24Z pjb saying that, while using :with everytime he can.
2015-01-11T04:57:32Z beach: heh.
2015-01-11T04:58:35Z beach: Saving horizontal whitespace is number 2 in difficulty when programming.  Number 1 is coming up with relevant names of variables, functions, etc.
2015-01-11T04:59:05Z pjb: beach: you need one of those new 4K screens.
2015-01-11T04:59:24Z beach: I want 2 of them actually, but I can't have it yet. :(
2015-01-11T04:59:48Z beach: There is no combination of graphics card and drivers that will handle that configuration, apparently.
2015-01-11T05:01:15Z beach: drmeister: So what is the great moral dilemma about using LOOP?  It sounds like it's a big thing for you.
2015-01-11T05:01:46Z pjb: beach: Actually I was thinking about the iMac 5K for you :-)
2015-01-11T05:01:53Z phadthai: but the wider the screen, the most code columns can fit, if you keep code at a reasonable width :)
2015-01-11T05:02:05Z pjb: http://www.apple.com/fr/imac-with-retina/
2015-01-11T05:02:09Z beach: pjb: I don't think I am about to buy an Apple product, but thanks.
2015-01-11T05:02:28Z Hexstream: beach: I should be able to solve the #2 problem in programming this year, with something a bit like metabang-bind except well-designed... It's been "almost done" for a while...
2015-01-11T05:03:32Z beach: Hexstream: How does it work?
2015-01-11T05:03:38Z Hexstream: (I've been having serious problems with "circular dependencies". Bootstrapping problem...)
2015-01-11T05:03:55Z drmeister: Not moral, I'm just not comfortable with it yet. I've read LOOP for blackbelts at least a dozen times...
2015-01-11T05:04:43Z Xach is reminded of a local septic pumping service whose slogan is "we're #1 in the #2 business"
2015-01-11T05:05:04Z beach: Wow, silly.
2015-01-11T05:05:11Z Hexstream: beach: Well, I'm not sure if you can "reverse-engineer" it from https://github.com/Hexstream/explicit-bind, it's not documented yet but most of the design is already done, I just need to finish some implementation stuff.
2015-01-11T05:05:52Z beach: Hexstream: I think I understand.
2015-01-11T05:07:01Z Hexstream: Already? I'm lost in the code myself. o_o
2015-01-11T05:07:31Z beach: I am too, but I understand what you are trying to do, and how it may solve the indentation problem.
2015-01-11T05:07:31Z Hexstream: Oh nice, I actually had examples.
2015-01-11T05:07:38Z Hexstream: Great!
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2015-01-11T05:10:36Z beach: One problem I have with SBCL LOOP is that it expands to implementation-specific code.  I resolved with SICL LOOP that the first expansion should use as few specific constructs as possible.
2015-01-11T05:11:45Z beach: I think I only use a two specific things, namely replacements for CAR and CDR in destructuring so I can have more reasonable error messages.
2015-01-11T05:12:56Z beach: I should also simplify the expansion a bit so that it is more readable.  Right now, there are a lot of (PROGN) forms when no code is generated.
2015-01-11T05:15:31Z beach: Maybe what I should do as soon as SICL LOOP passes all the tests of the ANSI test suite is to "release" what I have so that other people can have the opportunity to use it and improve it.
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2015-01-11T05:43:10Z pjb: beach: since your LOOP is a new implementation, and since there are basically two other implementations of LOOP, a table showing the difference in behavior of each implementation would be interesting.
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2015-01-11T06:08:52Z beach: pjb: Good idea.  I'll keep that in mind.  What are the other two implementations?  MIT and ???
2015-01-11T06:10:50Z |3b|: clisp doesn't use MIT as far as i know
2015-01-11T06:11:04Z beach: It has its own?
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2015-01-11T06:11:27Z |3b|: (there is also sacla if you want a 3rd)
2015-01-11T06:11:50Z beach: Oh, OK.  I didn't realize he had done that.
2015-01-11T06:12:10Z phadthai: the expansion cleanup code could perhaps serve elsewhere and become more generic, it depends I guess...
2015-01-11T06:12:25Z |3b| used sacla loop for my flash VM lisp
2015-01-11T06:12:26Z phadthai: I don't know how many LOOP implementations there are but I've seen very few indeed
2015-01-11T06:14:06Z beach: phadthai: I think I just made the wrong decision in some cases.  Each clause generates a single form for the loop body, a single form for the prologue, etc.  If the clause does not generate any code, then it must then produce (PROGN).  I should have had each clause generate a LIST of forms instead.
2015-01-11T06:14:32Z beach: If I do that, it will clean up itself.
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2015-01-11T06:21:25Z |3b|: yeah, no MIT copyright on clisp LOOP, and looks different as well
2015-01-11T06:22:21Z |3b|: almost entirely implemented in 1 ~1kloc function (with lots of flet,labels,macrolet,etc though) :/
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2015-01-11T06:33:37Z beach: |3b|: Thanks.  I will have a look when I am ready to do the comparison.
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2015-01-11T07:04:05Z beach: Yay! SICL LOOP passes all the tests for COLLECT/APPEND/NCONC.
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2015-01-11T07:50:27Z Shinmera: Xach: Augh, sorry for holding up your build!
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2015-01-11T08:12:15Z Shinmera: drmeister: One may argue that LOOP is more "lispy" than anything since it uses a macro to its fullest. You would be right if you said it isn't parenthesis-y
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2015-01-11T08:19:10Z Shinmera: What is the recommended course of action upon encountering something like this? https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TWpNMA==
2015-01-11T08:21:06Z Shinmera: The failure occurs for a top-level macro form that expands to a defgeneric with a :method option, of which the method contains a call to an undefined function. If I manually macroexpand the form and compile the produced defgeneric instead it works fine.
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2015-01-11T08:24:57Z |3b|: Shinmera: does your macro destructively modify any of its arguments?
2015-01-11T08:25:42Z Shinmera: It checks the body forms for a :locator form and changes that to a :method, yes.
2015-01-11T08:25:49Z Shinmera: How did you guess that?
2015-01-11T08:26:31Z |3b|: sounds like https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1371719 (it isn't a bug in sbcl, but it could handle it better)
2015-01-11T08:27:15Z Shinmera: Ah, alright, I see. Thanks a lot, that saved me quite a headache!
2015-01-11T08:28:35Z beach: Oh, CLISP loop has a single expansion function with 927 lines in it. :)
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2015-01-11T08:29:03Z Shinmera: |3b|: I did assume I was doing something wrong, but I don't think I would have guessed that as the culprit any time soon.
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2015-01-11T08:30:49Z |3b|: yeah, that isn't a very useful error message :/
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2015-01-11T08:32:13Z Shinmera: It gives a very wrong idea (since it implies SBCL is at fault)
2015-01-11T08:33:14Z Shinmera: beach: Joy of joys.
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2015-01-11T08:33:50Z beach: It's, how should I put it, "amusing".
2015-01-11T08:34:37Z Shinmera: I remember looking through CCL's DEFCLASS, which was over 100 lines and I already had a good time with that.
2015-01-11T08:34:42Z Shinmera: can't imagine almost a thousand.
2015-01-11T08:34:52Z Shinmera: Actually it's 161 lines.
2015-01-11T08:34:52Z beach: I guess they used the first half of the motto from XP, i.e., implement the simplest solution you can think of.  And then they forgot the second part: refactoring.
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2015-01-11T08:35:57Z Shinmera: for some values of "simple"
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2015-01-11T08:36:26Z beach: SICL DEFCLASS is 10 lines. :)
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2015-01-11T08:36:55Z beach: ... plus 15 lines of comments.
2015-01-11T08:36:56Z Shinmera: I first looked at SBCL's which is fairly short, so I was a bit taken aback to see CCL's.
2015-01-11T08:37:40Z Shinmera: Actually I misremembered, it isn't that short, but it doesn't do much.
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2015-01-11T08:38:18Z beach: XP doesn't say "simple".  It says "the simplest you can think of", which is not at all the same. :)
2015-01-11T08:38:41Z Shinmera: Well, "simple" in my mind does not mean "one function".
2015-01-11T08:38:56Z beach: Sure, I agree.
2015-01-11T08:39:30Z |3b|: well, it is at least broken into lots of local functions
2015-01-11T08:39:50Z beach: Anyway, I think perhaps SICL LOOP will be unique in that it uses standard objects rather than structs, and it has an extensible combinatory parsing framework built in.
2015-01-11T08:40:12Z Shinmera: Does your loop support any kind of extension mechanisms?
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2015-01-11T08:40:20Z beach: Yes. :)
2015-01-11T08:40:26Z Shinmera: Neat.
2015-01-11T08:40:38Z beach: It is all done with CLOS stuff and the extensible parsing framework.
2015-01-11T08:40:51Z beach: I need to document that of course.
2015-01-11T08:41:00Z Shinmera: I'll definitely remember to read it all over once you're done.
2015-01-11T08:41:19Z beach: I'll let you know.  It is very close.
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2015-01-11T09:09:27Z i5um41ru: hi anyone, would you like to explain me a powerfull of lisp programming language
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2015-01-11T09:13:10Z Zhivago: i5im: Metacircularity.
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2015-01-11T09:41:00Z beach: i5um41ru: It has a combination of features that make the programming task easier.
2015-01-11T09:42:34Z beach: i5um41ru: See for instance: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
2015-01-11T09:43:45Z beach: I made a "promise" that SICL LOOP would not use LOOP for its expansion.  But I don't think I can keep that promise.  It is just too weird to program without it.
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2015-01-11T10:13:25Z beach: i5um41ru: Why do you need to know the power of Lisp?
2015-01-11T10:17:30Z stassats: the power of lisp is 978 watts
2015-01-11T10:17:53Z beach: stassats: How did you get that number?
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2015-01-11T10:18:41Z stassats: with a dynamometer
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2015-01-11T10:27:14Z Shinmera: Lisp has great potential.
2015-01-11T10:27:59Z stassats: how many volts?
2015-01-11T10:28:45Z Shinmera: I don't have my parenthesiometer handy.
2015-01-11T10:35:01Z fantazo: hmm, what are actually arguments against static typing as ocaml does it?
2015-01-11T10:35:43Z stassats: too static
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2015-01-11T10:38:10Z fantazo: stassats, they argument that this is good, because of better error detection while writing the code.
2015-01-11T10:39:23Z Shinmera: The best error detection is running your code.
2015-01-11T10:39:31Z stassats: if it takes more time to change code which results in less testing, then it negates the benefits
2015-01-11T10:40:37Z stassats: changing functions piecemeal and being able to test each individual on any input you want
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2015-01-11T10:40:54Z stassats: of course that's possible with static language, but they don't implement them like that for some reason
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2015-01-11T11:03:16Z mrkkrp: i5um41ru: good ol' articles: http://paulgraham.com/avg.html, http://paulgraham.com/diff.html
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2015-01-11T11:04:23Z stassats: pretentious fluff, in my opinion
2015-01-11T11:04:27Z stassats: the averages one
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2015-01-11T11:05:43Z mrkkrp: stassats: it was entertaining to read
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2015-01-11T11:08:57Z Pastaf: I've been reading Lisp propaganda. It seems to be working. I'll have to try Lisp first thing in the morning. :)
2015-01-11T11:09:53Z Pastaf: any suggestions on where to start?
2015-01-11T11:10:18Z Shinmera: minion: tell Pastaf about PCL
2015-01-11T11:10:19Z minion: Pastaf: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-01-11T11:10:32Z fantazo: lisp is for sure heavily propagandized. the problem is what really holds the test of time.
2015-01-11T11:11:03Z H4ns: "heavily propagandized." haha
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2015-01-11T11:11:21Z H4ns: i remember the busses with "java" on them cruising through the city.  that is what i'd call "heavily propagandized."
2015-01-11T11:11:51Z stassats: ok, how much does that cost?
2015-01-11T11:12:30Z stassats: and i would want that on trams, not busses
2015-01-11T11:12:32Z fantazo: H4ns, or how would you call paul graham essays? it reads like heavenly bliss
2015-01-11T11:12:52Z stassats: i called them "pretentious fluff"
2015-01-11T11:13:45Z H4ns: fantazo: i shrug
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2015-01-11T11:14:45Z Pastaf: Shinmera, skimmed that a bit, it looks great. Thanks.
2015-01-11T11:15:18Z fantazo: I must say, that I like the lisp idea. but so do I like the smalltalk or forth idea. if it comes down to everyday work I stumble with lisp families, be it common lisp, clojure or my favorite scheme.
2015-01-11T11:15:52Z fantazo: most of the stuff I don't seem to understand deeply enough to be productive.
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2015-01-11T11:16:26Z stassats: and i would be in the same situation with smalltalk
2015-01-11T11:16:35Z stassats: i haven't learned it, of course i will have trouble
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2015-01-11T11:21:04Z fantazo: I wouldn't make it that easy. the hyperspec for example is one of those places which give a good overlook of common lisp, but it is hard to read. there are better documentations for other programming languages.
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2015-01-11T11:21:35Z H4ns: fantazo: what is it that you're getting at, really?
2015-01-11T11:22:22Z mrkkrp: Pastaf: you will need emacs, slime, quicklisp, and a decent implemetation of CL
2015-01-11T11:22:28Z stassats: i haven't seen better documentation than CLHS, most languages do to even have a specification
2015-01-11T11:22:34Z Shinmera: the CLHS is the best documentation I've read of any language.
2015-01-11T11:22:41Z stassats: and others just have a plain PDF
2015-01-11T11:22:55Z Pastaf: mrkkrp, gotcha
2015-01-11T11:24:07Z fantazo: H4ns, sorry wasn't meant to ruin the fun. I just find it frustrating.
2015-01-11T11:24:50Z H4ns: fantazo: ah, you're venting your frustration.  i just wandered whether that would be it.
2015-01-11T11:24:57Z H4ns: wondered
2015-01-11T11:25:55Z H4ns: fantazo: don't give up.  once you've immersed yourself in lisp, it will be more fun :)
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2015-01-11T11:31:39Z mrkkrp: I want to setup this http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html for fun, they should have mac lisp in ITS, although I don't know for sure
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2015-01-11T13:08:24Z alexi5: hello
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2015-01-11T13:59:26Z mrkkrp: alexi5: hello.
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2015-01-11T14:08:47Z Sikander: Hi guis
2015-01-11T14:08:51Z Sikander: guys
2015-01-11T14:09:04Z beach: Hello Sikander.
2015-01-11T14:09:06Z Sikander: I have an issue with quicklisp and slime 2.11
2015-01-11T14:09:52Z Sikander: http://paste.lisp.org/+3406
2015-01-11T14:10:27Z Sikander: Basically, sbcl complains that package swank doesn't exist.
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2015-01-11T14:10:49Z Sikander: I think I started having this issue after an upgrade, but don't know how to fix it. Any ideas?
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2015-01-11T14:16:34Z samebchase: Sikander: are you using this: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper
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2015-01-11T14:17:05Z samebchase: I think that is the preferred way these days
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2015-01-11T14:17:45Z Sikander: Yes, I quickloaded quicklisp-slime-helper, and am loading it in my .emacs
2015-01-11T14:18:07Z Sikander: as per quicklisp instructions. Has always worked, but stopped working after an update
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2015-01-11T14:18:39Z Shinmera: An update of what?
2015-01-11T14:18:53Z Shinmera: Emacs? Quicklisp? SBCL?
2015-01-11T14:19:36Z Sikander: Good question; I've not used emacs for a while and after several updates on my system, I noticed this going wrong.
2015-01-11T14:20:09Z Shinmera: You might have an old version of the slime-helper if you haven't updated the quicklisp dist in a while.
2015-01-11T14:20:14Z Sikander: From the message, I suspect it's either an SBCL or quicklisp/slime problem, since it's the inferior lisp that goes wrong
2015-01-11T14:20:16Z Shinmera: So: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
2015-01-11T14:20:23Z Sikander: I have
2015-01-11T14:20:34Z Sikander: I even completely deleted and reinstalled quicklisp
2015-01-11T14:20:39Z Shinmera: Hum.
2015-01-11T14:20:46Z Sikander: Cleared out my sbcl cache
2015-01-11T14:20:51Z Sikander: reinstalled emacs
2015-01-11T14:20:55Z Sikander: ...
2015-01-11T14:21:18Z Sikander: I noticed on another computer that everything was working fine.
2015-01-11T14:21:35Z Sikander: The difference seems to be that quicklisp wasn't updated; it uses slime 2.10
2015-01-11T14:22:03Z Sikander: (on that other computer)
2015-01-11T14:22:06Z Shinmera: Are you sure that emacs isn't using slime from somewhere else? Some distros offer slime as a package.
2015-01-11T14:22:30Z Shinmera: (unfortunately)
2015-01-11T14:22:40Z Sikander: Hmmm... let me see...
2015-01-11T14:25:28Z Sikander: Did you see the paste http://paste.lisp.org/+3406 ? It's not emacs, but in the lisp where it goes wrong. That one uses the quicklisp slime.
2015-01-11T14:26:05Z Shinmera: Oh, whoops, I missed that. Sorry.
2015-01-11T14:26:05Z Sikander: sbcl says "Package SWANK does not exist"
2015-01-11T14:26:15Z Sikander: np
2015-01-11T14:27:02Z Sikander: I'm looking at the quicklisp site, and I see I can revert back to an older dist. Is it possible to only revert to an older dist of a specific package (like slime)?
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2015-01-11T14:27:22Z Shinmera: No
2015-01-11T14:27:40Z Shinmera: Each release is a snapshot at a given time that ensures that the entire ecosystem is compilable and works.
2015-01-11T14:27:52Z Shinmera: Being able to downgrade specific packages would defeat that goal.
2015-01-11T14:28:12Z Sikander: I see, that makes sense
2015-01-11T14:28:38Z Shinmera: You can however place a specific slime/swank system in local-projects
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2015-01-11T14:29:06Z Shinmera: Or whatever you want to retain as an older version.
2015-01-11T14:29:25Z Shinmera: If you do that in the case of slime you'll have to adapt the paths in your .emacs though.
2015-01-11T14:29:56Z Sikander: I just tried an older quicklisp dist, with slime 2.10.1
2015-01-11T14:29:58Z Sikander: Same problem
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2015-01-11T14:30:29Z Sikander: Yeah, should (ql:quickload "swank") work?
2015-01-11T14:30:48Z Shinmera: It should.
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2015-01-11T14:32:16Z Sikander: I tried running sbcl in a terminal (not slime), and with slime 2.10.1, I tried to quickload swank. Doesn't work. My system is screwed.
2015-01-11T14:32:33Z Sikander: I can ql all other systems, but swank just doesn't exist.
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2015-01-11T14:33:59Z Shinmera: I'm at my wit's end, but hopefully someone else in here will be able to figure it out with you.
2015-01-11T14:36:58Z Sikander: Thanks for your help anyway
2015-01-11T14:38:23Z LiamH: Hi Sikander
2015-01-11T14:38:38Z Sikander: Ok, that's weird, when I go back in dists even further (slime 2.9) I can quickload "swank" in a terminal, but from slime it still doesn't work.
2015-01-11T14:38:42Z Sikander: LiamH: Hi LiamH
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2015-01-11T14:41:50Z Sikander: Well, that didn't work either...
2015-01-11T14:42:05Z drmeister: stassats: Ping
2015-01-11T14:42:27Z drmeister: stassats: The preview branch of clasp compiled last night.
2015-01-11T14:42:52Z drmeister: Then I downloaded SLIME using the emacs package manager and SLIME "just worked" with Clasp.
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2015-01-11T14:43:43Z drmeister: It takes a while to compile everything (500 seconds or so on my machine - I'll work on that now) but it all runs
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2015-01-11T14:45:44Z Shinmera: drmeister: I'll try compiling it sometime soon.
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2015-01-11T14:48:19Z drmeister: Shinmera: That would be awesome - thanks - I appreciate any feedback.
2015-01-11T14:48:32Z Shinmera: Do you have any Arch Linux testers yet?
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2015-01-11T14:49:03Z drmeister: I'm just loading quicklisp - it is working - albeit slow.
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2015-01-11T14:52:41Z phadthai: Sikander: if the goal is to load swank stand-alone to be able to later connect to it using slime, the last time I did that, interestingly, I had to use EVAL and explicititely call a few of its functions (without EVAL, it would fail; that was years ago, on ECL, without quickload however): http://paste.lisp.org/display/145159
2015-01-11T14:53:12Z Shinmera: phadthai: (ql:quickload :swank) should work out of the box nowadays.
2015-01-11T14:53:19Z phadthai: hopefully
2015-01-11T14:53:20Z Shinmera: phadthai: At least it works just dandy on my servers.
2015-01-11T14:54:34Z Sikander: That's useful info. However, the problem is that swank doesn't load with quicklisp-slime-helper, but (now) does load in a lisp run directly from a term
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2015-01-11T14:55:16Z Sikander: phadthai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145158 is my issue (even with slime 2.10.1 and 2.9)
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2015-01-11T14:56:02Z Sikander: In other words, slime doesn't work any more. I reinstalled sbcl, emacs and quicklisp, but this remains a problem.
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2015-01-11T14:56:22Z Sikander: There must be some cache or config somewhere I'm not aware of that is breaking everything.
2015-01-11T14:56:40Z Sikander: Dammit, I hate this turtles all the way down thing... where is the defective turtle?
2015-01-11T14:56:50Z Shinmera: You said you cleared SBCL's cache -- that would be ~/.cache/common-lisp/ right?
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2015-01-11T14:56:57Z Sikander: Yes
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2015-01-11T15:42:51Z Shinmera: drmeister: Clasp-externals built fine. Clasp itself errors with Unable to checkout '871800ac479d27eb6072db1628d54a312a80a19f' in submodule path 'src/lisp/kernel/asdf'
2015-01-11T15:42:57Z Shinmera: drmeister: I'm on the preview branch.
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2015-01-11T15:47:46Z drmeister: Shinmera: Thanks for the heads up - I'm on it.
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2015-01-11T15:48:15Z drmeister: Git submodules are a major thorn in my side.
2015-01-11T15:48:36Z Xach: same
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2015-01-11T15:51:00Z Shinmera: Xach: Does lQuery build again or have you not tested it yet?
2015-01-11T15:51:25Z drmeister: I always liked the line:   "A programmer had a version control problem and said, “I know, I’ll use submodules.” Now they have two problems."
2015-01-11T15:51:42Z Shinmera: drmeister: The problem though is that there isn't really a replacement for submodules.
2015-01-11T15:51:54Z drmeister: Yup
2015-01-11T15:51:54Z Shinmera: drmeister: There's subtree, but that's unsuitable for a large number of cases.
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2015-01-11T15:52:50Z drmeister: Crap, I have no idea what's up with my ASDF submodule.
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2015-01-11T15:53:02Z Shinmera: Can you at least reproduce my problem?
2015-01-11T15:53:10Z drmeister: git branch   -->   * (detached from cece143)
2015-01-11T15:53:32Z drmeister: Shinmera: Not at the moment - but I see problems.
2015-01-11T15:53:36Z Shinmera: Alright.
2015-01-11T15:54:09Z drmeister: I forked asdf and I've been making local changes and occasionally rebasing from the original repo -   I might have gotten distracted half way through a rebase.
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2015-01-11T16:01:46Z drmeister: Dammit, I wiped out clasp/src/lisp/kernel/asdf/*  and then used:   git submodule update src/lisp/kernel/asdf/   but only some of the files are being restored!
2015-01-11T16:02:12Z drmeister: wtf - not no files, not all files, just some of the files.
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2015-01-11T16:04:06Z drmeister: I really, really hate submodules.  It's like I have to spend a day relearning git every time I want to use them.
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2015-01-11T16:05:12Z Xach: Shinmera: builds again
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2015-01-11T16:05:26Z Shinmera: Xach: Hooray. I hope I didn't cause much of a problem.
2015-01-11T16:05:36Z Xach: i hope to make the january release today
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2015-01-11T16:05:46Z Shinmera: Nice.
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2015-01-11T16:13:09Z mrkkrp: is there something like (fnc 2 '(1 2 3 4 5)) -> ((1 2) (3 4) (5)) ? in alexandria for example?
2015-01-11T16:13:27Z Sikander: Shinmera: The problem is solved. sbcl 1.2.7 and asdf 3.1.4 don't work, sbcl 1.2.2 and asdf 3.0.3 do.
2015-01-11T16:13:38Z Sikander: Shinmera: Thanks for your help
2015-01-11T16:14:48Z Shinmera: That seems strange.
2015-01-11T16:14:51Z stassats: mrkkrp: not in alexandria
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2015-01-11T16:15:40Z stassats: mrkkrp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134555#2
2015-01-11T16:15:41Z stassats: i think
2015-01-11T16:15:52Z Sikander: Shinmera: Nevertheless. Those older versions work, newer dont. I don't know if it was asdf or sbcl that caused the issue
2015-01-11T16:16:16Z stassats: "2 years, 6 hours ago" gee, how useful to know that's been the whole 6 hours
2015-01-11T16:16:44Z Shinmera: I really hate these relative times for anything beyond an hour.
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2015-01-11T16:17:29Z mrkkrp: stassats, it should be included in some library
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2015-01-11T16:17:44Z stassats: Shinmera: take a stab at it: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/6488918530c665e273ffc3d1a07e3e73435d9770/web-server.lisp#L346
2015-01-11T16:17:45Z stassats: or anyone
2015-01-11T16:18:10Z stassats:  ((< delta 0) (list "<Doc Brown>From the " (<i> "future") "...</Doc Brown>"))
2015-01-11T16:18:11Z Grue`: mrkkrp: it feels like there's an easy way to do it like (loop for tail on list by (lambda (x) (nthcdr n x)) ....
2015-01-11T16:19:14Z Grue`: if n is fixed like 2 or 3 it's even easier
2015-01-11T16:19:35Z mrkkrp: it's certainly no problem to write it
2015-01-11T16:19:45Z stassats: Grue`: is my paste too hard then?
2015-01-11T16:19:49Z mrkkrp: but I don't want to reinvent the wheel
2015-01-11T16:20:09Z mrkkrp: I mean such things should be in libraries
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2015-01-11T16:20:52Z Shinmera: It probably is somewhere
2015-01-11T16:21:17Z stassats: Grue`: and are you sure that nthcdr will work?
2015-01-11T16:21:24Z wasamasa: mrkkrp: partition, that's what it's called in other languages
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2015-01-11T16:21:37Z mrkkrp: wasamasa, I know
2015-01-11T16:21:54Z wasamasa: mrkkrp: and armed with that knowledge you can't find it in another library?
2015-01-11T16:21:55Z Grue`: well, it's just cdr n times, right?
2015-01-11T16:22:06Z stassats: and then what?
2015-01-11T16:22:37Z Grue`: then we take first n elements of tail (kinda wasteful)
2015-01-11T16:22:58Z stassats: (loop for x on list by (lambda (x) (nthcdr n x)) collect (subseq x 0 (min (length x) n))) doesn't appear easier than (loop while list collect (loop repeat n while list collect (pop list)))
2015-01-11T16:23:21Z Grue`: and if you macroexpand the loops?
2015-01-11T16:23:23Z wasamasa: mrkkrp: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/master/reference.md#batches-seq-n-key-start-end
2015-01-11T16:23:33Z stassats: Grue`: what?
2015-01-11T16:23:47Z Grue`: your solution has a nested loop
2015-01-11T16:23:58Z stassats: yours doesn't?
2015-01-11T16:24:18Z Shinmera: Grue`: subseq has to go over the list as well. It's just a hidden loop.
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2015-01-11T16:24:47Z stassats: yours (or my rendition of it) has three sub loops: nthcdr, length, subseq
2015-01-11T16:25:08Z stassats: now, length can be avoided by writing your own subseq
2015-01-11T16:25:34Z Grue`: it needs more polish, that's all...
2015-01-11T16:26:10Z Shinmera: Stassats' version seems perfectly simple to me.
2015-01-11T16:26:21Z stassats: did i hear "easy"? and now it needs more polish!
2015-01-11T16:28:41Z stassats: and faster, i can't think of a better way to solve this, 2 years and 7 hours later
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2015-01-11T16:30:59Z mrkkrp: (group-into 0 (iota 10)) hangs, although it's questionable whether it's a flaw
2015-01-11T16:32:59Z stassats: just add (check-type n (integer 1))
2015-01-11T16:33:34Z mrkkrp: stassats, ok
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2015-01-11T17:00:54Z drmeister: I clearly don't understand git submodules.
2015-01-11T17:01:18Z drmeister: I thought that I could fork ASDF and set up a submodule in clasp from my fork and then continue to update my fork.
2015-01-11T17:01:36Z pjb: Pastaf: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started is where you should start of course.
2015-01-11T17:02:05Z drmeister: I thought when I used: git submodule update --init  that it would always grab the latest commit of my fork.
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2015-01-11T17:02:50Z drmeister: Currently my fork on github is missing a bunch of changes that I made.   My local copy has the changes.
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2015-01-11T17:05:05Z stassats: now frames with arg-count errors can be restarted in SBCL
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2015-01-11T17:05:17Z stassats: so you can redefine the function, restart the frame and it will call it with the exact same arguments that were originally passed
2015-01-11T17:05:34Z stassats: a reminder, restartable frames are green in slime, and you need to press "r"
2015-01-11T17:06:31Z stassats: "now" is not right now yet
2015-01-11T17:07:47Z joshe: drmeister: a submodule tracks a specific revision, it won't automatically follow a branch
2015-01-11T17:08:26Z joshe: iirc you have to do something like 'git submodule pull' and then commit the change
2015-01-11T17:08:54Z drmeister: joshe: Thanks for confirming that.
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2015-01-11T17:11:31Z drmeister: About an hour ago when I used git branch it produced:   git branch   -->   * (detached from cece143)
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2015-01-11T17:11:48Z drmeister: Then I used:   git checkout master  and my changes were gone
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2015-01-11T17:11:57Z stassats: ok, didn't account for one thing, so scrap the above restarting for a moment
2015-01-11T17:12:02Z drmeister: Have I lost them?
2015-01-11T17:12:18Z drmeister: Can I get back to:   * (detached from cece143)?
2015-01-11T17:12:32Z joshe: my mental model of it is that it works like you have a text file containing a revision hash in the other repo
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2015-01-11T17:12:54Z stassats: drmeister: try git log -g HEAD
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2015-01-11T17:13:12Z joshe: so when you change the submodule, you have to stage and commit that change in the parent repo
2015-01-11T17:13:13Z stassats: git reflog
2015-01-11T17:13:46Z drmeister: stassats: I get this:
2015-01-11T17:13:48Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/CXhIQ80g
2015-01-11T17:15:00Z drmeister: I just used:   git checkout help
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2015-01-11T17:15:31Z drmeister: I don't see the recent changes.
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2015-01-11T17:16:37Z drmeister: On github there is a "devel" branch that includes some(or all) of my recent changes
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2015-01-11T17:17:45Z drmeister: Ugh, I have a mess on my hands.
2015-01-11T17:17:52Z joshe: the objects should still be in the checkout, and the reflog should show the hashes
2015-01-11T17:18:20Z drmeister: I've switched to another machine that had the most recent asdf changes.
2015-01-11T17:18:24Z drmeister: git reflog -->
2015-01-11T17:18:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lzHWPtPN
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2015-01-11T17:19:20Z drmeister: Is there a way to switch to these other HEADs?  like 19ab7ba and cece143?   What are these?
2015-01-11T17:19:45Z joshe: you can git log or git show them
2015-01-11T17:19:47Z stassats: copy the repo somewhere before you do any harm
2015-01-11T17:19:52Z stassats: and then git checkout cece1439f7ecba80dcc4fff6ba8a0d5a915a6c02
2015-01-11T17:20:46Z drmeister: Will do - thank you.  I feel like a bull in a china shop.
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2015-01-11T17:22:00Z drmeister: Ok, that restored all the feature tests that I had installed for clasp.
2015-01-11T17:22:24Z drmeister: I'll copy this somewhere to be safe as well
2015-01-11T17:23:32Z drmeister: git status reports that I'm "# Not currently on any branch." and "nothing to commit (working directory clean)"
2015-01-11T17:24:15Z drmeister: What would I do at this point to move the current changes into the master branch?
2015-01-11T17:25:02Z drmeister: sorry to sound like such a noob - I have a comfortable workflow for git - I'm way outside of my comfort zone at the moment.
2015-01-11T17:25:29Z stassats: something like? git checkout master ; git rebase cece1439f7ecba80dcc4fff6ba8a0d5a915a6c02
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2015-01-11T17:27:33Z drmeister: stassats: I followed some random advice from the internet (I've never run into trouble doing that :-)) It said essentially:   git checkout master ; git merge cece1439f7ecba80dcc4fff6ba8a0d5a915a6c02
2015-01-11T17:27:57Z stassats: that will generate a merge commit, you have plenty of those already
2015-01-11T17:28:44Z drmeister: Is that bad?   Or will it miss something that I would get from git rebase ... ?
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2015-01-11T17:29:04Z stassats: it's unclean
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2015-01-11T17:37:29Z drmeister: I'll restore from the backups and do as you suggest.
2015-01-11T17:37:57Z stassats: with merge you can do --no-commit
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2015-01-11T17:39:57Z drmeister: Done.   At this point can I push everything up to github?   git push origin master?
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2015-01-11T17:40:09Z stassats: you can try
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2015-01-11T17:59:08Z stassats: and frame restarting i described earlier is in
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2015-01-11T18:13:37Z drmeister: I had to set up ssh keys for authentication - I got the changes uploaded.
2015-01-11T18:16:01Z stassats: changes to what?
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2015-01-11T18:16:57Z Shinmera: drmeister: Should the build work now, or?
2015-01-11T18:18:40Z drmeister: I'm still trying to figure out how to get submodules to update to the head of my forked asdf repository
2015-01-11T18:19:21Z Shinmera: Alright; let me know when I should try again
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2015-01-11T18:29:10Z pegu: Did anybody try to put a git server behind hunchentoot?
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2015-01-11T18:35:27Z Grue`: pegu: for what purpose?
2015-01-11T18:36:30Z pegu: To access a git repository using http/https
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2015-01-11T19:11:30Z drmeister: Shinmera: Could you pull clasp and give it a try now if you have time?   It's the "preview" branch.   I cloned a fresh copy and typed  make clean; make --> Ctrl-C ;   make  and that seems to be running.
2015-01-11T19:12:08Z Shinmera: It has gone past the asdf test and is now compiling things
2015-01-11T19:12:10Z drmeister: The first make throws errors about the file: "core_scrape_flag.h" not being found -   just Control-C and run make again - that will resolve it.
2015-01-11T19:12:35Z Shinmera: Right, I saw that in the readme.
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2015-01-11T19:13:22Z Shinmera: Finally I can make use of my Xeon processor for once :)
2015-01-11T19:13:50Z stassats: does it have 18 cores?
2015-01-11T19:14:06Z Shinmera: Nah, it has 6.
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2015-01-11T19:14:21Z stassats: "here's a dime, buy yourself a real computer"
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2015-01-11T19:15:27Z Ainieco: hello
2015-01-11T19:16:45Z Ainieco: trying to use is-empty-heap-p from https://github.com/TheRiver/CL-HEAP but no dice for some reason, what i did was:
2015-01-11T19:16:55Z Ainieco: (ql:quickload :cl-heap) (cl-heap:is-empty-heap-p (make-instance 'cl-heap:priority-queue))
2015-01-11T19:17:16Z Ainieco: and it failed with 'There is no applicable method for the generic function' error
2015-01-11T19:18:05Z stassats: probably because it's a queue
2015-01-11T19:18:52Z Shinmera wonders why that naming convention is doubled over. is- and -p?
2015-01-11T19:19:01Z stassats: lacks "?"
2015-01-11T19:19:07Z stassats: "is-empty-heap-p?"
2015-01-11T19:19:45Z Ainieco: iirc schemers use '?' for predicates and cl people use -p
2015-01-11T19:19:52Z Ainieco: 'is-' is something weird
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2015-01-11T19:20:03Z Shinmera: is- is from those that would rather be using Java or what have you.
2015-01-11T19:20:29Z stassats: inlining generic functions is a weird choice
2015-01-11T19:20:53Z Shinmera: I thought the consequences of inlined generics were not properly defined, or am I misremembering?
2015-01-11T19:20:54Z Ainieco: stassats: yeah, queue-size worked fine, thanks. too bad there is no is-empty-queue-p out of the box
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2015-01-11T19:23:35Z stassats: Shinmera: generic functions are so slow inlining will only blow up your code size, if it will be even inlined
2015-01-11T19:24:03Z Shinmera: Ah. Right.
2015-01-11T19:24:20Z Shinmera: I thought there was something about it in the hyperspec, but I can't find anything on the quick, so I must be misremembering.
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2015-01-11T19:27:45Z Shinmera: drmeister: I can now slowly see the individual functions being compiled.
2015-01-11T19:28:02Z Shinmera: veerrry slowly.
2015-01-11T19:28:14Z stassats: so can i, using just one core
2015-01-11T19:29:29Z stassats: while trying to add frame restarting to ARM and crashing and burning doing that
2015-01-11T19:31:14Z drmeister: Shinmera: When it starts up it is running under an S-expression walking Common Lisp interpreter.  As it compiles each source file it loads the resulting fasl file and replaces the interpreted code with compiled code.  It runs faster and faster until it completely compiles the "minimal lisp" image - CL without CLOS.  Then it uses that compiled minimal lisp to
2015-01-11T19:31:14Z drmeister: compile the full Common Lisp.
2015-01-11T19:32:30Z drmeister: It does that for the Boehm garbage collector and then it does it again for the MPS garbage collector - I could probably remove the Boehm version from the default build at this point.
2015-01-11T19:32:45Z drmeister: Meh - it's still alpha.
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2015-01-11T19:53:14Z drmeister: Shinmera: Do you run linux or OS X?
2015-01-11T19:54:38Z Shinmera: Arch Linux
2015-01-11T19:55:10Z Shinmera: If I'm interpreting the output right it's now generating full clasp for boehm
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2015-01-11T20:04:21Z drmeister: It may run into a problem when it tries to compile ASDF and dump you in a REPL.   Just type (quit) and it will continue.   I'll sort it out.
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2015-01-11T21:04:45Z Shinmera: drmeister: The last message was "Compiling ASDF" for quite some time now. Does it usually take very long?
2015-01-11T21:05:13Z drmeister: Hmm - and it didn't drop you into a repl that looks like this?
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2015-01-11T21:05:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hm8q5kr1
2015-01-11T21:05:55Z Shinmera: No, nothing like that yet.
2015-01-11T21:06:09Z Shinmera: The CPU is still being used fully, so I guess it's doing things (?)
2015-01-11T21:06:11Z drmeister: Well, it may be working.
2015-01-11T21:06:58Z stassats: or not doing things
2015-01-11T21:07:20Z stassats: what will happen if you interrupt it?
2015-01-11T21:07:41Z drmeister: Yes, it does take a long time.   I don't know why ASDF takes so long to compile. It takes a long time to load (30 seconds) as well.  When it happened the first time last summer I got really depressed and almost deleted every extant copy of Clasp thinking I'd wasted three years.  (seriously).    It's what drove me to start incorporating Cleavir.
2015-01-11T21:07:59Z drmeister: I'm glad that I didn't.
2015-01-11T21:08:14Z stassats: did you just buy a faster CPU?
2015-01-11T21:08:26Z stassats: faster CPUs always cheer me up
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2015-01-11T21:09:00Z Hexstream: Gee, maybe it's why I'm so depressed.
2015-01-11T21:09:10Z drmeister: No, I asked my wife to hold me all night and I felt better the next day. Then I contacted beach about incorporating Cleavir.   I may not sound like it at times but I take my work very seriously.
2015-01-11T21:09:51Z drmeister: Computers are a billion, billion times too slow to solve the kind of chemistry problems that I would like them to solve so I'm kind of used to this.
2015-01-11T21:10:19Z stassats: so it sits at around 4G of memory, swaying few dozens of megabytes
2015-01-11T21:11:18Z drmeister: stassats: Is that directed at me?
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2015-01-11T21:11:34Z stassats: should be, yes
2015-01-11T21:11:44Z drmeister: Are you building clasp at the moment?  I wasn't aware.
2015-01-11T21:12:18Z stassats: i am, all my questions were asked by Shinmera, so i was quietly copying things
2015-01-11T21:13:53Z stassats: should build asdf in the same image as building the system?
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2015-01-11T21:14:20Z stassats: the process has been running full tilt 1 h 35 minutes
2015-01-11T21:14:37Z Shinmera: 1h22m for me
2015-01-11T21:15:28Z Shinmera: memory seems to be constantly growing though.
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2015-01-11T21:16:07Z Shinmera: Currently at 3.9GB
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2015-01-11T21:16:57Z drmeister: stassats: The automatic compilation of ASDF is still a bit messed up when you type "make".  I should be building two versions, one for each garbage collector but currently the MPS version will overwrite the Boehm version.   It's ok because once both Boehm and MPS versions of Clasp are built you can load one of them up and type:   (core:compile-asdf) and it
2015-01-11T21:16:57Z drmeister: will rebuild ASDF for that version of Clasp.
2015-01-11T21:18:15Z drmeister: Once Cleavir is incorporated these numbers should improve a lot.  A lot more stuff will be done on the stack and both time and memory requirements should improve markedly.
2015-01-11T21:18:53Z drmeister: Shinmera: About where is it in the build process?   Is ASDF still being compiled?
2015-01-11T21:19:15Z stassats: of course it is
2015-01-11T21:19:25Z stassats: it seems to be moving forward, though
2015-01-11T21:19:34Z stassats: too slow, apparently
2015-01-11T21:20:07Z Shinmera: drmeister: yes
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2015-01-11T21:20:26Z stassats: and your stack trace is upside down
2015-01-11T21:20:31Z drmeister: If you are brave you can Control-C it and use :b to get a backtrace to get an idea of what it's doing.    :c   will continue from where it left off.   It's been pretty robust.
2015-01-11T21:20:46Z stassats: that's what i'm doing
2015-01-11T21:21:04Z drmeister: Is it?    You want the most recent frames at the top?
2015-01-11T21:21:31Z stassats: that's what i'm used to
2015-01-11T21:21:36Z drmeister: I've spent the last three years looking at backtraces on the command line - so I put the most recent frames at the bottom so I don't have to scroll up.
2015-01-11T21:21:47Z Hexstream: Hehe, bizarro land.
2015-01-11T21:21:49Z drmeister: It's like Python.
2015-01-11T21:21:51Z stassats: all the lisp implemntations, gdb, and other debuggers i've encountered
2015-01-11T21:22:02Z drmeister: Agreed.
2015-01-11T21:22:31Z drmeister: You can also use (core:low-level-backtrace) to get one that looks more like you expect.   It's a little more tolerant of corrupted stacks).
2015-01-11T21:23:01Z drmeister hates corrupted stacks.
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2015-01-11T21:23:35Z stassats is currently corrupting stacks on sbcl arm
2015-01-11T21:23:54Z stassats: trying to make them restartable
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2015-01-11T21:26:59Z stassats: how much long should i allow it to heat the rooom?
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2015-01-11T21:35:40Z drmeister: I don't know.  20 minutes?
2015-01-11T21:36:16Z drmeister: It's cold where I am (Philadelphia) and presumably where you are - is there a problem?
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2015-01-11T21:36:37Z drmeister: I'm kidding.   It's a serious enough problem that I'm working on a new compiler front end.
2015-01-11T21:36:47Z stassats: the cpu is only 36°C degrees warm
2015-01-11T21:37:22Z stassats: so it has been already around 40 minutes compiling asdf
2015-01-11T21:38:34Z stassats: set *compile-verbose*  and *compile-print* in another image and started compiling it
2015-01-11T21:40:46Z drmeister: Hmm, that's longer than I'm comfortable with.
2015-01-11T21:41:32Z stassats: and it's not a raspberry pi or something
2015-01-11T21:41:48Z drmeister: At this point you have the boehm version of clasp built.  You could control-c out to the unix shell and start the mps build if you like.
2015-01-11T21:41:57Z drmeister: We can build ASDF later.
2015-01-11T21:42:07Z stassats: i did what i said above
2015-01-11T21:42:33Z drmeister: Right - I was speaking more to myself.
2015-01-11T21:42:48Z drmeister: I'm not making sense - hang on - I'm checking some stuff here.
2015-01-11T21:43:07Z stassats: it's easier when it prints something
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2015-01-11T21:44:01Z stassats: though pauses between each tlf are worrying
2015-01-11T21:44:12Z stassats: i would presum those are GC pauses
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2015-01-11T21:45:49Z drmeister: There is also the work that the LLVM library does.  It's not terribly fast and it doesn't report anything.
2015-01-11T21:45:51Z stassats: so, it spends 80% of time in _Unwind_Find_FDE
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2015-01-11T21:47:45Z drmeister: Hmm, that might be due to my use of exception handling to handle tagbody/go,  block/return-from and catch/throw.
2015-01-11T21:48:47Z drmeister: That's another thing that will be improved with Cleavir.   I'll be able to optimize the code for these special operators and not always rely on exception handling - which is expensive.
2015-01-11T21:48:59Z drmeister: But compatible with C++.
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2015-01-11T21:54:00Z stassats: what i'll suggest: build asdf in a new instance of clasp, since apparently it can't quite collect the garbage
2015-01-11T21:54:10Z stassats: and set *compile-print* and *compile-verbose* to t
2015-01-11T21:54:30Z stassats: i'm through 90% of the asdf.lisp file so far
2015-01-11T21:56:02Z stassats: ok, running link time optimization, that was 18 minutes
2015-01-11T21:56:20Z drmeister: Maybe the last form in asdf.lisp is (eval-when (compile-toplevel) (sleep 1000000))
2015-01-11T21:56:54Z drmeister: So now it's largely in LLVM's hands.
2015-01-11T21:57:21Z stassats: so, how do i compile mps?
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2015-01-11T21:58:17Z drmeister: cd into the clasp/ directory.     make clasp-mps
2015-01-11T21:58:37Z drmeister: You need at least 4GB ram and 12 GB swap.
2015-01-11T21:58:48Z stassats: i have 16GB of ram and no swap
2015-01-11T21:59:24Z drmeister: 12+4 = 16 --> you should be ok.
2015-01-11T21:59:47Z drmeister blows on his knuckles and wipes them on his chest.
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2015-01-11T22:00:17Z drmeister has mad arithmetic skills
2015-01-11T22:00:45Z stassats: took out asdf compilation step
2015-01-11T22:01:15Z stassats: i can throw in some more memory if needed
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2015-01-11T22:04:31Z drmeister: The reason for the high memory requirement is that my static analyzer automatically generates a large C++ function (~2,600 lines of code)  and the clang compiler requires enormous amounts of memory to compile large functions like that.
2015-01-11T22:04:56Z drmeister: It's a well known problem in clang.   They expect everyone to be writing code by hand!
2015-01-11T22:05:49Z drmeister: It's code that's included in clasp/src/main/clasp_gc.cc     if that file fails to compile you can add some swap and start the compile up again and it will just recompile that file.
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2015-01-11T22:07:01Z drmeister: I could implement a solution to the problem by breaking that one large function up into about 360 small functions but it would require a lot of work to achieve the runtime performance of my current approach.
2015-01-11T22:08:01Z drmeister: So I haven't done it.   I figure in the future people who don't want to deal with compilation will be using binary distributions.
2015-01-11T22:09:45Z drmeister: Is ASDF still compiling/linking on your system?
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2015-01-11T22:09:53Z stassats: no
2015-01-11T22:10:07Z drmeister: So it's done?   Great.  I'm timing it on this end.
2015-01-11T22:10:20Z stassats: about 20 minutes
2015-01-11T22:10:29Z Shinmera: drmeister: It finally pushed through some time back on my end too. It's now doing some common.copy stuff
2015-01-11T22:10:40Z stassats: but (require 'asdf) doesn't work
2015-01-11T22:11:06Z stassats: some incomprehensible package error about asdf/find-system
2015-01-11T22:11:36Z drmeister: stassats: Hmm.   Where do you have the clasp source installed and what is the target directory?
2015-01-11T22:11:53Z stassats: the default ones
2015-01-11T22:12:04Z stassats: maybe my split asdf compilation affected it
2015-01-11T22:12:12Z drmeister: Shinmera: You are probably on to building the MPS version.  How much memory do you have?
2015-01-11T22:12:21Z Shinmera: drmeister: I have 12gb
2015-01-11T22:12:26Z Shinmera: drmeister: It's now filled to 93%
2015-01-11T22:12:36Z stassats: it loads the asdf fasl, evidently, but asdf/find-system is amiss
2015-01-11T22:12:58Z drmeister: stassats: Within clasp_boehm_o    can you try (translate-logical-pathname #P"sys:kernel;asdf;build;asdf.fasl")
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2015-01-11T22:13:59Z drmeister: That's where the fasl file should have been placed.     You could also try probe-file
2015-01-11T22:14:06Z drmeister: Or check the directory from the shell
2015-01-11T22:15:19Z drmeister: (require :asdf) is working on my end - but that is not to discount what you say.
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2015-01-11T22:16:06Z stassats: i should probably reduce the jobs count from 8 to 1
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2015-01-11T22:17:06Z Shinmera: well, clang just crashed
2015-01-11T22:17:18Z Shinmera: I'm busy, so I'll report what exactly is going on later.
2015-01-11T22:18:45Z drmeister: Shinmera: Thanks
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2015-01-11T22:21:57Z drmeister: It takes 9.8 minutes to compile/link ASDF on my one year old macbook pro.
2015-01-11T22:22:57Z stassats: and 20 minutes on an overclocked to 4.1 GHz haswell cpu
2015-01-11T22:24:18Z drmeister: Mine has a 2.7 GHz intel Core i7 - Clock speed really doesn't mean anything these days does it?
2015-01-11T22:24:44Z stassats: it does
2015-01-11T22:25:48Z drmeister: I'm not up on processor versions these days - how does your processor stack up to the one I have?
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2015-01-11T22:26:13Z stassats: the only thing faster than i have would be a 4.2 GHz haswell cpu
2015-01-11T22:27:09Z drmeister: Why does mine take half as long when yours has twice the clock speed?
2015-01-11T22:27:19Z Shinmera: Mine's a Xeon clocked at 3.33GHz
2015-01-11T22:27:24Z stassats: because they are doing different things, obviously
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2015-01-11T22:28:17Z drmeister: Huh?  We are compiling the same file with the same sh*tty compiler.
2015-01-11T22:29:23Z stassats: which is not the case
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2015-01-11T22:41:37Z drmeister: Hmm, apparently not - I was hoping I might get some insight that would help speed things up.  I have a hypothesis as to why my code is slow but I don't have much hard data yet.
2015-01-11T22:42:32Z drmeister: Is yours an i3, i5 or i7?
2015-01-11T22:42:47Z stassats: i7-4770K
2015-01-11T22:43:09Z pjb: Mine's an i7-950 :-)
2015-01-11T22:43:48Z Shinmera: Xeon W3680 here
2015-01-11T22:44:48Z drmeister: What about memory?  I have 16GB 1600 MHz DDR3
2015-01-11T22:45:25Z stassats: it is faster than your machine
2015-01-11T22:45:37Z stassats: considering that it's not a laptop
2015-01-11T22:46:12Z Shinmera: drmeister: 12GB DDR3 1333 MHz ECC
2015-01-11T22:47:13Z drmeister: Ok.   Then there is your report that 80% of the time was spent in exception handling.  Maybe OS X is better at exception handling than Linux?  Investigating
2015-01-11T22:47:42Z stassats: it's coming from libgcc
2015-01-11T22:50:01Z drmeister: Bleh - I can't profile the compiler, the stack gets too deep.
2015-01-11T22:50:10Z drmeister: Sucks to be me sometimes.
2015-01-11T22:50:40Z drmeister: I'm also running the MPS version.   I'll switch to boehm and try it.
2015-01-11T22:50:55Z stassats: that was boehm, obviously
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2015-01-11T22:54:54Z drmeister: Using OS X Instruments I see _platform_bzero$VARIANT$Ivybridge using the most time at 7%
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2015-01-11T22:56:20Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: does clss implement's ~ (as in el1 ~ el2)
2015-01-11T22:56:31Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: it should, yes
2015-01-11T22:56:51Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: It implements full CSS Level 3 except for things that just don't make sense (some of the pseudo selectors)
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2015-01-11T23:01:10Z PuercoPop: before I submit a bug report, I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding css selectors If I want to select the #6 item shown in the selector (select "text ~ link" *dom*) http://paste.lisp.org/display/145162 (Although that text-node should in theory a children of the link actually)
2015-01-11T23:01:48Z Shinmera: text nodes are not elements
2015-01-11T23:01:59Z drmeister: 9.7 minutes to compile ASDF with clasp_boehm_o  on OS X
2015-01-11T23:03:02Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: I haven't tested it, but you might try "link ~ ^text-node"
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2015-01-11T23:06:13Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: that worked, thaanks
2015-01-11T23:06:53Z Shinmera: Phew, I'm glad it did
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2015-01-11T23:07:36Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: Note that CSS selectors are (by standard) only usable for elements, not any other node-types.
2015-01-11T23:07:54Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: The ^ extension in CLSS allows you to get everything else as well though.
2015-01-11T23:09:10Z PuercoPop nods
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2015-01-11T23:11:56Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: also, if performance is important and you only need exactly one element, you can the extra pseudo selector :first-only
2015-01-11T23:12:15Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: which will cause CLSS to abort as soon as it finds a match instead of continuing on.
2015-01-11T23:13:19Z PuercoPop: in my case performance is not important, I'm just extracing information of malformed rss feeds
2015-01-11T23:13:26Z Shinmera: Heh
2015-01-11T23:13:40Z Shinmera: Glad to hear that Plump gulps it up then :)
2015-01-11T23:14:39Z alpha-: how does scheme compare to common lisp ?
2015-01-11T23:15:10Z alpha-: which is more popular now?
2015-01-11T23:15:15Z Shinmera: I'm not sure if you read that on Plump's documentation page, but for RSS/XML/etc you'll need to make plump only use matchers for XML, rather than HTML. Some element ambiguity that HTML requires will mess with parsing otherwise.
2015-01-11T23:15:20Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: ^
2015-01-11T23:17:24Z PuercoPop: I hadn't, I'll check it out, thanks!
2015-01-11T23:18:23Z Shinmera: It's the last line in the How To
2015-01-11T23:18:42Z Shinmera: drmeister: Does clasp automatically produce a build log or do I need to copy paste from the terminal?
2015-01-11T23:19:33Z drmeister: You will have to copy/paste from the terminal - I took out the build log when I released it.
2015-01-11T23:19:44Z Shinmera: bleh.
2015-01-11T23:20:07Z Shinmera: I won't paste the full log then, there's way too much.
2015-01-11T23:20:15Z Hexstream: alpha-: Common Lisp is more featureful than Scheme, and also it's a single language whereas scheme has many different dialects.
2015-01-11T23:20:34Z drmeister: What would you recommend?   Should I dump one in /tmp?
2015-01-11T23:21:18Z Shinmera: I don't know what standard practises are for this
2015-01-11T23:21:29Z Shinmera: Usually I'd expect something in the build directory.
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2015-01-11T23:24:12Z Shinmera: drmeister: Ok, here's what happened from the ASDF compile on out http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/86#
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2015-01-11T23:24:55Z drmeister: Yup, you ran out of memory
2015-01-11T23:25:00Z Shinmera: I guessed as much
2015-01-11T23:25:12Z Shinmera: Though I would've thought 10gb free should be enough?
2015-01-11T23:25:13Z PuercoPop: Hexstream: I don't know if multiple dialects, it has multiple revisions and multiple implementations which extend the language in implementation specific ways. same as cl (except that the implementations specific stuff is more common  more because the language is small)
2015-01-11T23:25:46Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: There are multiple scheme dialects too.
2015-01-11T23:26:46Z Shinmera: drmeister: Should I reduce PJOBS to 1 and try again or won't that work either?
2015-01-11T23:27:18Z PuercoPop:  are your referring to the revisions of the language? I am not aware of any myself. (Maybe Racket if you consider it a scheme)
2015-01-11T23:27:28Z PuercoPop: *you
2015-01-11T23:27:40Z Hexstream: PuercoPop: If I say "Common Lisp", there's only one possible standard I'm referring to, whereas if I say "Scheme", there are a few different possibilities.
2015-01-11T23:28:02Z drmeister: Shinmera: Clang requires a lot of memory to compile gc_interface.cc - it includes code from clasp_gc.cc which is automatically generated and one of the resulting functions is about 2,600 lines of code.  Clang requires a LOT of memory to compile that function.   The smallest configuration that I've seen that is capable of compiling it is 4GB ram + 12GB swap
2015-01-11T23:28:02Z drmeister: and nothing else running.
2015-01-11T23:28:13Z Hexstream: Eatime.
2015-01-11T23:28:51Z drmeister: Reducing PJOBS to 1 may or may not help.  It depends if everything else finished compiling.
2015-01-11T23:29:40Z drmeister: The simplest (almost guaranteed) thing to do is to increase the swap to 16GB.
2015-01-11T23:29:55Z Shinmera: My swap is at 4
2015-01-11T23:30:04Z Shinmera: I'll see if I can increase it.
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2015-01-11T23:31:34Z drmeister: I have 16GB of ram and OS X grabs as much swap as it needs.  My Linux system has massive amounts of memory (64GB) - I've never personally seen this problem.
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2015-01-11T23:31:52Z PuercoPop: Hexstream: I was going to say that one doesn't consider C99 to be a dialect of c but then I looked it up and realize it is precisely that. My bad.
2015-01-11T23:32:21Z alpha-: is scheme easier to learn?
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2015-01-11T23:32:40Z Shinmera: drmeister: My usual work setup never takes more than maybe 5gb, so I didn't think I'd ever have to upgrade from 12.
2015-01-11T23:32:57Z drmeister: I think the instructions that have helped people increase the swap on linux are these: http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2010/08/how-to-add-swap-space/
2015-01-11T23:33:06Z Shinmera: I know how to add swap
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2015-01-11T23:33:32Z drmeister: Excellent.
2015-01-11T23:33:46Z Shinmera: However, it's past midnight, so I'll get on all of that tomorrow.
2015-01-11T23:33:47Z PuercoPop: alpha-: scheme is smaller. But if you want to get more balanced suggestions you should knwo this is a channel for common lisp not lisps in general. (If not CL I would recommend racket it is very well documented and very well thought out ime)
2015-01-11T23:33:51Z Shinmera: Or rather later today.
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2015-01-11T23:36:09Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: You might also look at lQuery btw, I usually use that for any kind of crawling purposes.
2015-01-11T23:36:21Z drmeister: Ok, thanks for the feedback so far.  I'll put some time into improving the distribution.
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2015-01-11T23:40:22Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: Let me know if anything else arises (questions/suggestions/whathaveyou)
2015-01-11T23:40:28Z Shinmera: For now I direly need a dose of sleep.
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2015-01-11T23:52:29Z pjb: -
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