2015-01-07T00:02:28Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:02:30Z adlai joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:03:06Z Jubb joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:04:10Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:04:11Z troydm joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:05:43Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:05:59Z Xach: ew2rr: not in classes, usually. 2015-01-07T00:06:47Z tomaw joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:06:59Z akkad quit (Excess Flood) 2015-01-07T00:07:25Z akkad joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:07:26Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:07:58Z ew2rr: Xach what do you mean? 2015-01-07T00:08:08Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:08:50Z Xach: ew2rr: I mean you can specify a :type slot option, but that implementations will not do anything if you store a value that is not of that type in the slot. 2015-01-07T00:09:26Z ew2rr: ccl does check the type... 2015-01-07T00:09:32Z Hexstream: Note that using further :type specifications in subclasses results in the slot having the intersection ("and") of all the types... 2015-01-07T00:10:41Z rme: ew2rr: But only at certain safety levels. 2015-01-07T00:10:59Z pjb: drmeister: cmov is Conditional Move. It's the only instruction required for turing completeness on Von Neumann architectures. 2015-01-07T00:11:03Z nuk3` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:11:24Z rme: You can write a custom slot writer that checks the type, but it's always possible to use slot-value to defeat that. 2015-01-07T00:12:22Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:12:25Z ew2rr: i've been programming in C++ mostly, is it incorrect to want to limit the possible values variables/slots can have? 2015-01-07T00:12:44Z nuk3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:12:45Z pjb: No, it is not. 2015-01-07T00:13:28Z Hexstream: Well, the type system may not be the best or most reliable way to do it, as far as declaring types are concerned. 2015-01-07T00:14:06Z pjb: Only because implementations are not required to do anything with types. 2015-01-07T00:14:31Z pjb: But I would say that it is definitely what you should use to do that. 2015-01-07T00:14:48Z ew2rr: right, so nothing is enforced statically - i only get the benefit of seein problem early during debugging... 2015-01-07T00:15:18Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T00:15:18Z pjb: ew2rr: no, not even. An implementation may just ignore types. 2015-01-07T00:15:30Z nuk3` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T00:16:21Z White_Flame: It's quite useful to be able to toss in any time, for instance to let an integer field be set to NIL 2015-01-07T00:16:24Z White_Flame: s/time/type/ 2015-01-07T00:16:50Z White_Flame: or to be able to throw in keyword enums in place of other types 2015-01-07T00:16:51Z pjb: (or null integer) would be the type of such a slot. 2015-01-07T00:17:16Z pjb: or (or (member :a :b …) integer) 2015-01-07T00:17:19Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:17:36Z White_Flame: right, you can declare all that if you want. But having a more open coding style is quite nice 2015-01-07T00:17:51Z pjb: of course, beyond some limit, you may rather use T, and that's where implementations ignoring types are in the right. 2015-01-07T00:18:50Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:18:57Z isoraqathedh_l is now known as isoraqathedh 2015-01-07T00:19:57Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:20:39Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:20:42Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:21:00Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-07T00:24:38Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:25:55Z ursuletz89 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:27:22Z ursuletz89 quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T00:30:22Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T00:30:23Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:31:11Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:32:13Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T00:32:22Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:32:46Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:33:37Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:36:32Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-07T00:38:08Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:38:12Z goglosh joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:38:19Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:38:49Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-07T00:43:29Z dagnachew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T00:44:38Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:49:47Z hrs quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-01-07T00:49:58Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:51:43Z lispm quit (Quit: lispm) 2015-01-07T00:52:22Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:52:44Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T00:54:45Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T00:58:54Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T00:59:56Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T01:00:02Z echo-are` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T01:00:39Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:01:52Z dandersen1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:01:54Z dandersen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-07T01:02:07Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:02:11Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:03:25Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:03:39Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:04:09Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:04:14Z dandersen1 is now known as dkcl 2015-01-07T01:04:15Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:04:28Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T01:04:28Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:12:47Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:18:58Z akkad: hunchentoot on a tablet performs fairly well 2015-01-07T01:19:09Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T01:19:13Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:20:38Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-01-07T01:21:02Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T01:22:57Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:24:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:25:06Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:25:17Z askatasuna quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T01:26:13Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:26:45Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:31:28Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:32:05Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:33:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:34:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:37:44Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:38:42Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:39:28Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:39:54Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T01:39:54Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T01:43:23Z snits quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T01:43:38Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T01:44:23Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:44:51Z Zamenhof joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:45:10Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:45:14Z oudeis joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:45:22Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:46:07Z isoraqathedh quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-07T01:46:11Z isoraqathedh_l is now known as isoraqathedh 2015-01-07T01:46:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:48:15Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:49:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:50:26Z ukari quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T01:51:57Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T01:52:39Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:52:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T01:55:30Z ukari: how to bitwise operate 2015-01-07T01:55:50Z Bicyclidine: clhs logand 2015-01-07T01:56:00Z Bicyclidine: well, logand, logior, etc. 2015-01-07T01:56:38Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T01:56:38Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T01:58:44Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:03:03Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:04:27Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:05:08Z oleo is now known as Guest95822 2015-01-07T02:05:26Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:05:35Z acbcface142cabf quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-07T02:06:22Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:06:54Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:07:26Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:08:13Z Guest95822 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:08:15Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:10:12Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:11:38Z tstc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:11:58Z tstc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:12:31Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:13:36Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:16:00Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:18:43Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-07T02:19:10Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:19:41Z ukari quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T02:19:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:22:25Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:24:41Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:24:42Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T02:25:53Z ukari_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T02:26:11Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:27:27Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T02:27:40Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:28:12Z Quadrescence quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T02:29:39Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T02:35:08Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:38:56Z towodo quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T02:39:22Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:41:23Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:43:26Z srcerer joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:44:24Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:46:23Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T02:46:26Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:47:15Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:48:59Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T02:48:59Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:50:49Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T02:51:31Z pendapi: akkad what lisp you using? 2015-01-07T02:58:20Z nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 2015-01-07T03:00:07Z ahungry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T03:03:21Z ukari: i use sbcl 2015-01-07T03:04:26Z loke: there is also BOOLE 2015-01-07T03:07:00Z Guest52215 quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-07T03:07:23Z chu joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:08:00Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:10:11Z loke: ew2rr: A bit late, but you might also want to look at CHECK-TYPE. I always use it on the input values for external API's so that the user gets a decent, early, error message if he passes in something with an incorrect type. 2015-01-07T03:13:38Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T03:16:50Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:16:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-01-07T03:17:32Z akkad: pendapi: on the tablet? all of them. :P 2015-01-07T03:18:04Z pendapi: is it a windows 8 tablet? 2015-01-07T03:18:05Z zRecursive: akkad: Can tablet run emacs well ? 2015-01-07T03:18:17Z hrs quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-07T03:18:36Z pendapi: rlwrap emacs 2015-01-07T03:18:43Z pendapi: very bad recommendation 2015-01-07T03:21:29Z akkad: pendapi: yes it is, and it can run emacs... but emacs is not something meant to be touched :P 2015-01-07T03:23:13Z Zhivago: Is it meant to be licked? 2015-01-07T03:23:53Z Adeon left #lisp 2015-01-07T03:24:03Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T03:24:34Z pendapi: abcl is not apropriate with only 1GB of ram 2015-01-07T03:26:22Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T03:28:29Z goglosh quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-07T03:28:40Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:28:45Z nycat- joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:30:44Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T03:31:10Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:32:45Z loke: pendapi: Who has only 1 GB of ram? 2015-01-07T03:33:31Z nyef: Ah. Hello all, beach. 2015-01-07T03:35:25Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T03:36:59Z pendapi: the tablet of akkadian 2015-01-07T03:37:19Z beach: drmeister: How did you decide what code to keep from ECL and what to rewrite? And how do you decide what to write in C++ and what to write in Common Lisp? 2015-01-07T03:39:22Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:43:23Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T03:45:50Z sword joined #lisp 2015-01-07T03:49:14Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T04:04:35Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:07:23Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:07:30Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:09:01Z beach: YAY! SICL LOOP passes all the FOR-AS-PACKAGE tests. 2015-01-07T04:13:54Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:16:07Z ahungry joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:16:45Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:16:50Z nyef: beach: Congratulations. 2015-01-07T04:17:27Z beach: Thanks. 2015-01-07T04:17:57Z nyef: On the nq-clim front, I've got the difference operation working for rectangle sets, and the intersection operation should be easy enough at this point. 2015-01-07T04:17:58Z enitiz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T04:18:13Z beach: Nice! 2015-01-07T04:18:56Z beach: So all your regions have the same representation? 2015-01-07T04:19:02Z nyef: Then I need to figure out if I can reasonable collapse the logic for the X and Y operations so that it's not so badly duplicated... 2015-01-07T04:19:08Z nyef: Well, the composite regions do for now. 2015-01-07T04:19:15Z nyef: Since I'm only operating in terms of rectangles. 2015-01-07T04:19:15Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T04:19:22Z beach: Right. 2015-01-07T04:19:28Z nyef: Although I'm debating adding the +NOWHERE+ region. 2015-01-07T04:19:41Z capcar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T04:20:00Z nyef: If I stick with rectangles then there's no need for another composite format. 2015-01-07T04:20:12Z brucem: do you have everywhere? 2015-01-07T04:20:27Z nyef: brucem: No, nor do I see an immediate need for it. 2015-01-07T04:20:31Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:21:06Z nyef: Likewise, I don't see the need for 1d regions or anything 2d that isn't a rectangle. 2015-01-07T04:22:17Z beach: nyef: What will you do with the difference of +EVERYWHERE+ and some finite region? 2015-01-07T04:22:39Z nyef: I don't have +EVERYWHERE+, so I don't need to do anything with such a difference. 2015-01-07T04:23:22Z beach: Oh, I see. Not only do you not have +EVERYWHERE+, you are not planning to have it either? 2015-01-07T04:23:32Z nyef: Not until I find that I need it. 2015-01-07T04:25:21Z nyef: Now, I can see a use for +NOWHERE+. It's useful to have a privileged region that can be considered as the "empty region". 2015-01-07T04:26:10Z nyef: You can still perform region operations with it such as union, intersection, whatever. It's still a region, so you're not stumbling over the type system when someone passes you a NIL. 2015-01-07T04:28:29Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-07T04:29:35Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:32:08Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:32:35Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-01-07T04:35:48Z beach: So do we have a volunteer for putting Paul Dietz' ANSI test suite on GitHub and maintaining it? 2015-01-07T04:38:08Z beach: Thanks to Hexstream, Paul agreed to let us put it there with a BSD license. 2015-01-07T04:38:24Z nyef: Not it. 2015-01-07T04:39:07Z beach: nyef: You mean you are not it? 2015-01-07T04:39:45Z nyef: I'm not volunteering, and you can't make me do it. d-: 2015-01-07T04:40:19Z beach: Heh. Sure. You are already doing a lot for open source Common Lisp. 2015-01-07T04:43:11Z beach: Package question: Does the definition of "external" apply only to present symbols? 2015-01-07T04:43:37Z cods joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:43:57Z beach: clhs 11.1.1.2.1 2015-01-07T04:44:08Z beach: Oh well. 2015-01-07T04:44:39Z beach: That page says "The mappings in a package are divided into two classes, external and internal." 2015-01-07T04:44:55Z beach: The problem is that "The mappings in a package" is not a defined phrase. 2015-01-07T04:45:19Z beach: It could mean "the symbols that are present", but it could also include inherited symbols. 2015-01-07T04:45:52Z beach: Yet another thing to clarify in Common Lisp version 2. 2015-01-07T04:46:21Z beach: [the reason that I keep repeating that phrase is so that I can later grep for it in the logs] 2015-01-07T04:46:48Z nyef: beach: Have a look at 11.1.1 itself, it seems to discuss mappings in the context of packages. 2015-01-07T04:48:11Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:48:12Z beach: nyef: Thanks. 2015-01-07T04:48:19Z ukari_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T04:48:43Z ukari_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:49:27Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T04:49:29Z beach: Also the page for WITH-PACKAGE-ITERATOR says that :EXTERNAL means "present and exported". 2015-01-07T04:49:43Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:50:14Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T04:50:48Z nyef: And the glossary for "internal symbol" is fairly unambiguous as well. 2015-01-07T04:51:10Z beach: Yet another piece of evidence (and this is the reason I am asking) is that LOOP has a FOR-AS-PACKAGE subclause for EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS and SBCL implements that as WITH-PACKAGE-ITERATOR with the :EXTERNAL argument. 2015-01-07T04:51:49Z ukari_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T04:52:14Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T04:53:23Z ukari: why (lognot 1) return -2,and (lognot 0) return -1 2015-01-07T04:53:25Z beach: nyef: Yes, and it contradicts the entry for WITH-PACKAGE-ITERATOR with :INTERNAL. :( 2015-01-07T04:53:26Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T04:53:57Z beach: ukari: Read up on 2-complement representation. 2015-01-07T04:54:20Z nyef: Present vs. accessible? 2015-01-07T04:54:32Z beach: nyef: Yes. 2015-01-07T04:54:38Z beach: ukari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two%27s_complement 2015-01-07T04:57:19Z beach: ukari: 1 can be thought of as an infinite number of 0s followed by a 1, so taking the NOT of that is an infinite number of 1s followed by a 0 which is the two's complement representation of -2. 2015-01-07T04:58:01Z beach: ukari: 0 is just an infinite number of 0s, and the NOT of that is an infinite number of 1s, which is the two's complement representation of -1. 2015-01-07T04:58:46Z White_Flame: and integer negation of binary numbers in general is defined as (1+ (lognot x)) 2015-01-07T04:59:18Z White_Flame: s/binary/two's complement/ 2015-01-07T04:59:20Z ukari: i understand now 2015-01-07T04:59:46Z PuercoPop: beach: isn't it already on github? https://github.com/sbcl/ansi-cl-tests 2015-01-07T05:00:36Z beach: PuercoPop: Great! I guess someone did that without permission. Who is maintaining it? 2015-01-07T05:00:54Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:00:59Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T05:01:20Z PuercoPop: I have no idea, but it seems to me it just a code dump 2015-01-07T05:02:54Z beach: I wonder how SBCL-specific it is. 2015-01-07T05:03:04Z malisper joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:04:17Z t4nk707 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:04:26Z mhd joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:05:00Z malisper left #lisp 2015-01-07T05:05:24Z malisper joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:05:44Z malisper left #lisp 2015-01-07T05:08:31Z t4nk707 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-07T05:08:49Z loke: I found a reference to GCL here: https://github.com/sbcl/ansi-cl-tests/blob/master/compile-and-load.lsp 2015-01-07T05:09:08Z loke: And allegro and cmu in another one 2015-01-07T05:10:23Z nyef: Okay, I'm about out of time for tonight. 2015-01-07T05:10:29Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2015-01-07T05:12:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:15:00Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:19:37Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T05:19:43Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2015-01-07T05:20:02Z drmeister: and everyone else. 2015-01-07T05:20:35Z drmeister: I got Quicklisp to work within Clasp today. 2015-01-07T05:22:12Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations. 2015-01-07T05:22:23Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T05:22:36Z drmeister: thank yew thank yew thank yew 2015-01-07T05:23:10Z beach vanishes for 30 minutes or so. 2015-01-07T05:23:30Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:24:39Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:24:49Z drmeister: It brought to light a nasty bug printing numbers in base 36. It was amazing. 2015-01-07T05:24:50Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T05:25:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:25:05Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T05:25:05Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:33:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:33:55Z slyrus: drmeister: congrats! 2015-01-07T05:34:10Z drmeister: Hey slyrus! 2015-01-07T05:35:02Z drmeister: How's business? 2015-01-07T05:35:29Z slyrus: going well, thank you! 2015-01-07T05:39:27Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T05:44:28Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T05:47:07Z nycat-: anyone know of a JWS/JWT library? 2015-01-07T05:51:11Z Ukari1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T05:53:28Z beach: drmeister: I asked you a question before: How did you decide what code to keep from ECL and what to rewrite? And how do you decide what to write in C++ and what to write in Common Lisp? 2015-01-07T05:55:40Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-07T05:59:02Z Zamenhof quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:03:22Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T06:03:24Z beach now thinks drmeister doesn't like that question. 2015-01-07T06:03:40Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:06:03Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:07:01Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:08:05Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T06:08:14Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:09:07Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:12:42Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T06:12:47Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:15:23Z zRecursive: Is GCL a complete CL implementation ? 2015-01-07T06:15:50Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:15:51Z zRecursive: same as ccl and sbcl ? 2015-01-07T06:16:54Z drmeister: beach: Sorry - no, I was deep in conversation with slyrus in another channel. 2015-01-07T06:18:31Z drmeister: If it was implemented in ECL in C then I usually implemented it in C++. Occasionally I was able to implement ECL C functions in Common Lisp but I always came at it from the point of view of bootstrapping. If I can't write the function in Common Lisp because there isn't enough infrastructure to support it - then I had to implement it in C++. 2015-01-07T06:19:17Z drmeister: I've got a couple of files (clasp/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/foundation.lsp) that are full of functions that were implemented in C in ECL that I reimplemented in Common Lisp. 2015-01-07T06:19:21Z beach: Oh, so basically you rewrote all of the C part of ECL? 2015-01-07T06:19:27Z drmeister: Pretty much. 2015-01-07T06:19:34Z beach: I see. 2015-01-07T06:19:48Z drmeister: Some parts of ECL I took the C code and translated it into C++ line-by-line. 2015-01-07T06:20:00Z beach: Makes sense. 2015-01-07T06:20:04Z drmeister: Pathnames, streams - that stuff is crazy with corner cases. 2015-01-07T06:20:22Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:20:49Z drmeister: Maybe 10% of my code is translated from C into C++ by hand. I leave in the ECL copyright notice because it's the right thing to do. 2015-01-07T06:21:13Z drmeister: Oh - and the numerical functions - I translated those as well. 2015-01-07T06:21:23Z drmeister: Again, lots of corner cases. 2015-01-07T06:22:24Z beach: Got it. 2015-01-07T06:25:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:26:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:26:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:27:11Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T06:28:06Z beach: drmeister: So then, the advantage of starting with an existing implementation was basically the code that you could translate line by line without having to work out the logic yourself? 2015-01-07T06:29:59Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:30:29Z drmeister: beach: It was more that the Common Lisp code of ECL was written to work with an underlying C layer and I figured that I could replace that C layer with a C++ layer and get it all to work quickly. Three (or so) years later - that's worked out. 2015-01-07T06:31:16Z beach: OK. 2015-01-07T06:31:51Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:33:30Z Ukari1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T06:38:42Z Ukari1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:44:27Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T06:51:33Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-07T06:51:40Z drmeister: The translating line by line from C to C++ was done in desperation to get some of the more complicated functionality of Common Lisp implemented in a short time-frame. 2015-01-07T06:51:46Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T06:52:35Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:53:23Z beach: I think I am getting a better idea of what you did. 2015-01-07T06:54:14Z beach: You keep mentioning 3 years. Roughly what percentage of full-time did you spend? 2015-01-07T06:55:00Z drmeister: It's hard to tell. Almost every moment of downtime I have my laptop open and I'm coding. Maybe 6 hours a day? 2015-01-07T06:55:17Z beach: Wow, quite a lot. I see. 2015-01-07T06:57:55Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T06:58:06Z drmeister: Someday I'll divide the number of lines I wrote by the number of days. I think it will be over 100 lines of code a day. 2015-01-07T06:58:45Z beach: Sorry, got to go. 2015-01-07T06:58:48Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-07T07:00:05Z drmeister: No problem. It's time to get to bed here. I'm getting ready to tackle Cleavir again and hopefully for real. 2015-01-07T07:00:23Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:01:57Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T07:05:09Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:07:07Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-07T07:07:39Z keen__________24 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:09:05Z keen__________23 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:09:45Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:14:45Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:14:56Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:18:40Z tesuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T07:19:00Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:22:22Z tesuji quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T07:22:54Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:24:39Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:26:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:27:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:29:22Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:30:39Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:31:18Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:31:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:31:49Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:31:56Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:33:03Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T07:34:23Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:34:23Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T07:36:25Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:37:47Z ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:38:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:38:39Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T07:39:07Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:41:46Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:43:15Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:45:17Z mband quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-07T07:45:41Z aap_ is now known as aap 2015-01-07T07:46:33Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:46:55Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:50:29Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T07:56:50Z Grue` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:58:39Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:59:11Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-07T07:59:16Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T07:59:28Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T07:59:28Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:00:50Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:01:20Z Intensity quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T08:03:25Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:06:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:09:18Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:09:34Z mrSpec quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T08:09:34Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:09:34Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T08:09:42Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:14:52Z chu quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-07T08:15:17Z chu joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:15:43Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:15:54Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:19:25Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:19:27Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T08:19:59Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T08:21:21Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:23:46Z Ukari1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:24:35Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:27:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:31:39Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:32:19Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:33:12Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:34:12Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:36:51Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:43:04Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T08:43:17Z dandersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T08:43:30Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:43:35Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:45:25Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T08:46:46Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:49:49Z mrkkrp joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:50:28Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2015-01-07T08:58:37Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:01:19Z Ukari1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:04:22Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:05:07Z Ukari1: in my country,no company advertise jobs with lisp on the website,what about yours?any one use it for a living? 2015-01-07T09:05:11Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-01-07T09:05:34Z H4ns: Ukari1: lisp jobs are rare, but they exist 2015-01-07T09:06:06Z H4ns: Ukari1: some lispers also run one-person companies which never advertise jobs. 2015-01-07T09:06:08Z ecraven: Ukari1: I'm doing some Scheme programming for web applications, no-one cares much what you program it in if you host it yourself too. Just small-scale side income though :-/ 2015-01-07T09:06:54Z H4ns: Ukari1: if you're looking at lisp because you expect it to be giving you more job options, then you've been mislead. 2015-01-07T09:08:03Z ecraven: H4ns: might work indirectly, understanding Lisp will make you a better programmer in general :) 2015-01-07T09:08:35Z Ukari1: as a university student, is it means that i must work for myself if i want to use lisp because no company need me 2015-01-07T09:08:36Z H4ns: ecraven: right. but there are a number of things that one can look at for research purposes to become a better programmer. 2015-01-07T09:09:33Z H4ns: Ukari1: as a university student, you should focus on understanding your subject matter. learning lisp is a way to become a better programmer, even if you might never use it in your professional career. 2015-01-07T09:09:46Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:09:51Z H4ns: Ukari1: you're not learning math in university to apply that knowledge in your job either. 2015-01-07T09:10:22Z Ukari1: H4ns:Hmaybe u are right 2015-01-07T09:11:12Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:11:15Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:12:05Z wolf joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:12:27Z chrnybo`` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:12:29Z wolf is now known as Guest53230 2015-01-07T09:12:36Z chrnybo` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T09:13:05Z ukari quit (Quit: AndroidIrc Disconnecting) 2015-01-07T09:13:27Z Ukari1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T09:13:37Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:13:37Z Ukari joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:13:41Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:16:50Z adlai joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:17:11Z Guest53230 quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-07T09:17:38Z pegu` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:17:40Z pegu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T09:17:50Z nee joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:19:36Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:22:29Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:25:45Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T09:26:35Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:30:06Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:30:44Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:30:54Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-07T09:32:26Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:33:51Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:35:29Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:35:40Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:35:46Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:37:39Z mband joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:38:42Z przl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:39:37Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:41:09Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:41:12Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2015-01-07T09:43:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T09:44:13Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T09:44:44Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:48:09Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:48:32Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:50:42Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T09:50:50Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2015-01-07T09:57:59Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T10:01:27Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:01:52Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:04:35Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T10:04:51Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:05:02Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:06:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:06:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T10:06:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:11:58Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-07T10:15:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:17:22Z hlavaty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:18:19Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:18:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T10:20:14Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:21:47Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T10:23:38Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:25:55Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-07T10:26:56Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:27:02Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:28:13Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:30:39Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T10:37:43Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:38:24Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:41:00Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-01-07T10:42:39Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:48:19Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-01-07T10:49:33Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:51:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:55:00Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:55:20Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:55:20Z Zhivago: It will make it easier to write javascript, so you should be set for a job. :) 2015-01-07T10:56:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T10:56:34Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T10:59:39Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-01-07T10:59:42Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T11:02:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:09:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:10:08Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T11:11:01Z yenda: Hi, does anybody know what is behind the "WJ" pseudonyme on comp.lang.lisp ? I don't know if it is a faq, but it's posting all over the topic and I wasn't able to find much informations online, some people say it is a very motivated troll, some others a bot with a quite good IA. Do you happen to know what it is and What is its purpose ? 2015-01-07T11:11:12Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:11:50Z przl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:12:03Z Shinmera: All I know is that it's on my killfile and I'm much happier as a result. 2015-01-07T11:12:18Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:13:26Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T11:29:19Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:29:25Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:29:33Z banjara quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T11:29:33Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:29:52Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T11:31:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:32:05Z Xach: yenda: someone with lots of time and motivation. 2015-01-07T11:34:45Z playnu_com_ar joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:36:48Z playnu_com_ar: Hi! Exist any CL documentation tool (doctring to html) that is standard in this community? 2015-01-07T11:36:54Z rszeno joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:37:33Z Xach: playnu_com_ar: no. 2015-01-07T11:38:10Z playnu_com_ar: ohoo thanks... 2015-01-07T11:38:31Z jackdaniel: what about this: http://common-lisp.net/project/cldoc/ ? 2015-01-07T11:38:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:39:05Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T11:39:22Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T11:39:57Z playnu_com_ar: yes i am going to use that, just beacause is simple, and i dont have to write intrucive markdown in the docstrings 2015-01-07T11:40:20Z jackdaniel: except it has broken links :c 2015-01-07T11:40:22Z Xach: There are many systems. None of them are widely used. 2015-01-07T11:41:36Z wasamasa: if your docs just replicate docstrings, you're doing it wrong anyways 2015-01-07T11:41:46Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:42:15Z Hexstream: There's definitely still a lot of opportunities in the Common Lisp community. I guess it's good that we haven't reached saturation yet, that would be boring. 2015-01-07T11:42:54Z playnu_com_ar: I thought that it may be like c/c++ with doxygen 2015-01-07T11:42:59Z Shinmera: See http://cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool 2015-01-07T11:43:59Z playnu_com_ar: yes, yes i alrady read the cliki, i think that an unestructured doctring is the way to go 2015-01-07T11:44:00Z Xach: playnu_com_ar: no 2015-01-07T11:44:00Z playnu_com_ar: thanks 2015-01-07T11:47:28Z wasamasa: I mean, great, you have a souped up docstring describing your function in greatest detail possible 2015-01-07T11:47:40Z wasamasa: that doesn't help anyone understanding how he's supposed to use the library 2015-01-07T11:47:52Z Hexstream: I think people tend to fetishize "documentation generation" a bit. Raw HTML + CSS isn't too hard (and even just raw HTML would work) and is only limited by your imagination. (Ok, a thin, transparent layer of s-expressions on top would be better, but do you really need a whole documentation framework??) 2015-01-07T11:47:56Z wasamasa: or the program or how to hack on it 2015-01-07T11:48:46Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:49:30Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T11:49:47Z Hexstream: A really great documentation framework would be really nice, mind you, but in the absence of such I don't think that faffing about with sub-par tools is that productive, given all the costs of researching and evaluating and learning them, all for... unguaranteed results. 2015-01-07T11:51:10Z wasamasa: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/#act-4-read-the-docstrings 2015-01-07T11:51:53Z lavokad joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:52:01Z lavokad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T11:52:16Z taspat` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:52:19Z Xach: I think it would be a win if there was a universal, capable documentation format that everyone used in all their lisp projects that could be extracted and displayed easily. I think that is a pretty good feature of perl's pod. 2015-01-07T11:52:35Z Xach: But there ain't, and nobody seems to have a good line on starting one, either. 2015-01-07T11:52:48Z z0d: yeah, but part of the problem in the Lisp world IMO, is that every rolls their own stuff 2015-01-07T11:53:03Z z0d: everyone* 2015-01-07T11:53:33Z MutSbeta joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:53:38Z Shinmera: wasamasa: I include the docstrings and complete symbol index so that my tool can generate automatic links to that from the main documentation body. That way people can get a good idea of what's what without having to install it. 2015-01-07T11:53:48Z taspat` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T11:54:31Z Hexstream: Not sure about "extraction", to me code and documentation are quite different beasts and for this reason I like to keep them separated. I don't want to multiply the complexity of the code with the complexity of the documentation by intertwining them, especially as great code and great documentation tend to assume different structures. 2015-01-07T11:54:42Z taspat` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:54:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T11:54:54Z wasamasa: ^ that basically 2015-01-07T11:54:58Z taspat` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T11:55:05Z wasamasa: they serve for different audiences 2015-01-07T11:55:13Z taspat joined #lisp 2015-01-07T11:55:19Z wasamasa: one is someone who doesn't even know what it does and how to get into using it 2015-01-07T11:55:35Z wasamasa: the other is someone who has a better idea of using the project and needs to look up stuff as he gets work done 2015-01-07T11:55:45Z Shinmera: Obviously only having a symbol index isn't going to help, but it is good to have it alongside the proper documentation manual or whatever you want to call it. 2015-01-07T11:55:47Z wasamasa: so, both have their place 2015-01-07T11:56:13Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T11:56:47Z Shinmera: What I don't get is why people always immediately assume that simply because you want to have docstrings in your file or whatever that that's the only thing they're going to do. 2015-01-07T11:57:04Z Shinmera: Every time someone asks for a docstring tool this shit comes up 2015-01-07T11:57:05Z playnu_com_ar: An remember the examples, we allways need examples to show how the api really works 2015-01-07T11:57:17Z playnu_com_ar: and that can be in the docstr 2015-01-07T11:57:21Z playnu_com_ar: cant* 2015-01-07T11:58:21Z Xach: Shinmera: I think it's related to the notion that if Common Lisp can't do it well, it must be a bad thing to want. 2015-01-07T11:58:22Z Hexstream: z0d: I think people rolling their own X is more like a symptom of not there being a sufficiently great X than a problem in itself. Even with my crazy NIH syndrome, when there is a sufficiently great X that does the job really well, I sometimes don't bother to roll my own because I have better things to do. 2015-01-07T11:58:53Z Xach: Shinmera: see also: native threads, small delivered executables, etc 2015-01-07T11:59:15Z Zhivago: Perhaps the issue is that half-arsed solutions form a local minima in lisp. 2015-01-07T11:59:41Z isoraqathedh: Minima as in potential well minima? 2015-01-07T11:59:52Z isoraqathedh: i.e. an attractor? 2015-01-07T12:00:21Z Zhivago: Costwise. 2015-01-07T12:01:21Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:01:35Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:01:42Z Shinmera: Naturally a language well-suited for prototyping is going to have a lot of prototypes lingering about. 2015-01-07T12:03:14Z wasamasa: lol 2015-01-07T12:03:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T12:05:16Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:05:59Z Hexstream: Given that Common Lisp allows for and facilitates a greater range of expression than most or all other programming languages, I think it's unsurprising that we can observe, indeed, a greater expressed range of expression and diversity. 2015-01-07T12:06:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T12:06:36Z Xach: beeeeeeeeach! 2015-01-07T12:06:51Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:07:35Z Hexstream doesn't get the joke, but trusts that it must be really funny. :) 2015-01-07T12:08:31Z Xach: It is not impossible to allow a line of IRC to go by uncommented. 2015-01-07T12:09:00Z z0d: you just did it! 2015-01-07T12:09:06Z z0d: oh, me too 2015-01-07T12:10:30Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:10:30Z minion joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:10:36Z stassats: minion: chant 2015-01-07T12:10:37Z minion: MORE ANNOYING 2015-01-07T12:12:01Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T12:19:35Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T12:19:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:20:06Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:24:28Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T12:26:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:28:15Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T12:43:26Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T12:44:11Z jackdaniel: wasamasa: thanks for the link, this post is really nice 2015-01-07T12:44:53Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: yeah, it's nice reading something more elaborate than a few complaints how bad certain solutions are 2015-01-07T12:46:48Z MutSbeta quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T12:47:03Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T12:49:08Z eudoxia: certainly docstrings alone are not enough, but Common Lisp lets you put docstrings in more places than most languages, i.e. a long package docstring can be a good introduction to a particular area of the code 2015-01-07T12:49:32Z eudoxia: but of course, you still need a few external files, e.g. tutorials and examples 2015-01-07T12:49:39Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:49:53Z stassats: you can make your own docstring kinds 2015-01-07T12:50:14Z eudoxia: stassats: what do you mean? 2015-01-07T12:50:34Z stassats: documentation is a generic function 2015-01-07T12:50:46Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T12:50:49Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-07T12:53:42Z Hexstream: stassats: DOCUMENTATION is specified as returning a string or nil. That's not a ton of flexibility. 2015-01-07T12:57:11Z pacon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T12:59:38Z splittist: If that (returning a string) was terribly important for some reason you could return a second value for your special documentation type. 2015-01-07T12:59:58Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T13:01:29Z Hexstream: splittist: Not conformingly. 2015-01-07T13:03:03Z przl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:05:49Z splittist: Hexstream: I would be prepared to abandon conformity in respect of a doc-type symbol I had introduced. 2015-01-07T13:07:01Z Hexstream: If you're prepared to abandon conformity, you can do anything whatsoever... 2015-01-07T13:07:18Z egp_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T13:07:21Z stassats: is it non-conforming, though? 2015-01-07T13:08:07Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T13:08:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T13:08:17Z Hexstream: stassats: I'm looking for the CLHS passage that says implementations must return the exact number of return values prescribed, but it is proving more elusive than I expected. 2015-01-07T13:08:39Z stassats: it's for implementations, but for user defined methods? 2015-01-07T13:09:04Z stassats: clhs 1.6 2015-01-07T13:09:04Z specbot: Language Extensions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_f.htm 2015-01-07T13:09:09Z stassats: Hexstream: here's your bit 2015-01-07T13:09:42Z Hexstream: Hehe, chapter 1. No wonder I wasn't finding it. 2015-01-07T13:12:35Z splittist: stassats: on the grounds that for a program to be conforming all it has to do is /rely/ on a conforming implementation? 2015-01-07T13:13:32Z Hexstream: stassats: I take it as granted that all methods must obey their generic function's contract... 2015-01-07T13:13:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-07T13:13:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:13:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T13:13:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:16:10Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:17:16Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T13:17:25Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-07T13:17:31Z oudeis joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:17:35Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:17:51Z pranavrc quit 2015-01-07T13:17:55Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:18:14Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:21:40Z Hache joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:27:40Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T13:28:13Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T13:29:54Z przl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:32:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:37:44Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:38:15Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T13:38:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:40:30Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2015-01-07T13:40:46Z taspat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T13:42:44Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T13:43:20Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:50:17Z thawes joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:50:29Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:50:47Z Xach: It took about 12 hours to build all Quicklisp systems when the fasl cache was reset between each 2015-01-07T13:52:01Z Xach: Generated about 21GB of fasls 2015-01-07T13:53:39Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:53:41Z hitecnologys: Xach: why would you need to drop cache after each build? 2015-01-07T13:54:25Z Xach: hitecnologys: I don't, normally. But it's one way to make sure that the build environment of one system doesn't leak into the build environment of another. 2015-01-07T13:55:00Z hitecnologys: Xach: ah, I see. 2015-01-07T13:55:24Z Xach: i'm also looking into doing more work in parallel, and isolating each build might help 2015-01-07T13:55:46Z stassats: get yourself an 8x18-core system? 2015-01-07T13:56:35Z hitecnologys: Or you can just rent so CPU time from Amazon. 2015-01-07T13:57:16Z hitecnologys: s/so/some/ 2015-01-07T13:57:22Z stassats: not as cool 2015-01-07T13:58:06Z hitecnologys: Right, but cheaper. 2015-01-07T13:58:11Z drmeister: Xach: I feel your pain 2015-01-07T13:58:14Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T13:58:45Z hitecnologys: stassats: actually, it might be cooler. Where are you going to put all the heat 100-core system generates? 2015-01-07T13:59:49Z stassats: brew some tea 2015-01-07T14:00:24Z hitecnologys: Well, that would require some additional adjustments to heat transfer system. 2015-01-07T14:01:08Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T14:02:37Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:02:46Z drmeister: C++ compilers are not known for their speediness 2015-01-07T14:03:07Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: lifeform experiment disconnected by unknown nothing) 2015-01-07T14:03:29Z egp_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T14:03:38Z hitecnologys: drmeister: what do you expect from a compiler for language with 4 distinct types of parentheses? 2015-01-07T14:03:42Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:04:15Z mrkkrp: lol 2015-01-07T14:05:23Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-01-07T14:07:34Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:09:40Z playnu_com_ar: perhaps a new complicated and distributed build system for CL volunteers, where any body can give some processing power... just letting my imagination fly 2015-01-07T14:10:34Z hitecnologys: playnu_com_ar: there were attempts but it's hard. 2015-01-07T14:11:03Z hitecnologys: playnu_com_ar: I there there's actually working one. 2015-01-07T14:11:34Z eudoxia: cl-test-grid? 2015-01-07T14:11:39Z hitecnologys: Yeah, that one. 2015-01-07T14:11:44Z hitecnologys: I couldn't recall the name. 2015-01-07T14:11:49Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T14:12:02Z playnu_com_ar: hitecnologys: any link to see that work 2015-01-07T14:12:14Z hitecnologys: playnu_com_ar: https://github.com/cl-test-grid/cl-test-grid 2015-01-07T14:12:21Z eudoxia: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/clss.html 2015-01-07T14:12:48Z hitecnologys: playnu_com_ar: it's not exactly distributed build system but it's close. 2015-01-07T14:13:00Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T14:14:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:16:55Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:17:54Z gniourf joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:20:41Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:20:41Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T14:22:06Z usrj joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:26:11Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:27:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:30:37Z ew2rr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-07T14:32:08Z hugod quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T14:32:24Z hugod joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:37:42Z przl_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:40:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:40:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T14:40:35Z Xach: my crappy old 6-core AMD sucks up dozens of dollars in the power bill each month 2015-01-07T14:40:44Z Xach: amazon will be cheaper 2015-01-07T14:40:46Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T14:41:00Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:42:21Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T14:48:54Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:50:06Z Shinmera: cl-test-grid has some very unfortunate dirty spots that often render it much less than useful 2015-01-07T14:51:39Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T14:54:12Z dim: Xach: here electricity is quite cheap (or so I hear) and we have very low cost hosting offering that you might be interested into 2015-01-07T14:55:36Z dim: see http://www.ovh.com/fr/vps/ and http://www.online.net/en/dedicated-server/dedicated-server-overview-perso to get started, tell me if you need help to consider those 2015-01-07T14:55:49Z Xach: I use ovh 2015-01-07T14:55:56Z joga: heh me too 2015-01-07T14:56:05Z Xach: They have servers in quebec 2015-01-07T14:56:17Z dim: oh cool, ok 2015-01-07T14:56:29Z joga: ...or more precisely, I host a server for some friends...I don't use it myself much 2015-01-07T14:56:38Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-01-07T14:57:09Z Xach: www.quicklisp.org is in ovh montreal i believe 2015-01-07T14:58:34Z dim: ah yeah the services are offered in english and with us pricing at http://www.ovh.com/us/vps/, I missed that because I knew it's a french company 2015-01-07T14:59:12Z dim: so you're using S3 for its durability not for its CDN properties, right? 2015-01-07T14:59:51Z Xach: dim: i am using the amazon CDN on top of S3. S3 alone has high latency to the rest of the world. 2015-01-07T15:00:59Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:01:14Z dim: gotcha 2015-01-07T15:01:23Z Xach: last month's bill was $5 2015-01-07T15:01:31Z dim: sounds sustainable 2015-01-07T15:02:04Z hitecnologys: Xach: just $5? For everything? 2015-01-07T15:02:39Z Xach: hitecnologys: for file storage, data transfer, and CDN. 2015-01-07T15:02:43Z Shinmera: dim: Profitable even, given donations. 2015-01-07T15:03:22Z hitecnologys: Xach: oh, nice. It's cheaper than I thought. 2015-01-07T15:03:25Z Hexstream: I thought digitalocean's 5$/month for a VPS was ridiculous, but OVH's 3$/month is almost "insulting". (Thinking back to my 80$ setup + 80$/month for a dedicated server several years ago for a failed venture makes me sick.) 2015-01-07T15:03:44Z segv- joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:03:50Z dim: Shinmera: always the same misunderstanding, after all those years, it's only “profitable” if you consider Xach's time and efforts at no cost, that is if you don't value his time working on Quicklisp 2015-01-07T15:04:02Z Shinmera: Hexstream: If only root servers were as cheap! :) 2015-01-07T15:04:23Z Xach: I put the extra money into local hardware. Haven't started putting it into local electricity bills though. 2015-01-07T15:04:33Z Xach: I also buy myself a beer and lunch with it sometimes. 2015-01-07T15:04:41Z Shinmera: dim: Well, that depends on how you define "profitable". 2015-01-07T15:04:43Z Hexstream: What do you mean by "root server"? To me a VPS is a "root server", insofar as I get root... 2015-01-07T15:05:03Z Shinmera: dim: I certainly don't underestimate the work time Xach puts into quicklisp. 2015-01-07T15:05:19Z dim: Shinmera: yeah sorry to have jumped on you like that 2015-01-07T15:05:26Z Shinmera: Hexstream: A root server is where you get an entire machine to yourself. 2015-01-07T15:05:28Z dim: in the context I guess what you're saying was harmless 2015-01-07T15:05:39Z Hexstream: Shinmera: Ok, I call those "dedicated servers". 2015-01-07T15:06:07Z dim: but well, my only revenue stream is from Open Source (Services based business model), so I'm quite warry of that 2015-01-07T15:06:42Z Shinmera: I'd love to work full time on open source projects, but I know it wouldn't be profitable /enough/ to support me. 2015-01-07T15:07:51Z dim: well if it were to sell only development hours I wouldn't either 2015-01-07T15:07:57Z dim: pgloader ain't there yet 2015-01-07T15:11:21Z usrj quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2015-01-07T15:12:28Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:13:19Z przl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:24:20Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:24:31Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T15:27:21Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:30:58Z theos: anyone works with powerloom? 2015-01-07T15:31:29Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T15:31:33Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-07T15:32:43Z egp_ quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2015-01-07T15:32:57Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:35:18Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-01-07T15:36:07Z cmack joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:36:35Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:38:55Z asoneth joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:41:02Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T15:41:45Z asoneth is now known as hardenedapple 2015-01-07T15:43:43Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:46:04Z asoneth joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:47:15Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T15:48:06Z oudeis joined #lisp 2015-01-07T15:48:53Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T15:49:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T15:49:26Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T16:14:07Z joneshf-laptop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T16:14:42Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:15:26Z Ainieco joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:15:29Z Ainieco: hello 2015-01-07T16:16:10Z Ainieco: which predicate function should i use when i need true for empty list or nil? 2015-01-07T16:16:26Z stassats: null 2015-01-07T16:16:32Z dlowe: endp 2015-01-07T16:16:47Z stassats: not 2015-01-07T16:16:56Z dlowe: empty list, so endp 2015-01-07T16:17:15Z dlowe: we got them, might as well use them 2015-01-07T16:17:58Z Ainieco: dlowe: stassats thank you! in my situation not null better conveys intent of code 2015-01-07T16:22:01Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T16:22:10Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:23:29Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:24:02Z hitecnologys: emptyp 2015-01-07T16:24:49Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T16:25:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T16:25:25Z hitecnologys: Wait, I've messed up time stamp. 2015-01-07T16:26:35Z stassats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T16:27:25Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:28:12Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T16:28:12Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T16:28:30Z nee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T16:29:27Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T16:31:56Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:32:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T16:37:22Z eudoxia quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T16:37:33Z stassats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T16:38:54Z xyh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T16:39:38Z segv- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T16:41:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-07T16:44:39Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2015-01-07T16:46:29Z Intensity joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:52:06Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:57:40Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T16:57:41Z theos: re:anyone works with powerloom? 2015-01-07T16:58:03Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2015-01-07T16:59:09Z Hexstream: theos: No need to repost, we've seen it. From the extended silence, one might assume "no". 2015-01-07T17:00:01Z theos: Hexstream hmm so you too have turned off joins/disconnects 2015-01-07T17:00:21Z theos: (unless there werent many) 2015-01-07T17:01:52Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T17:02:01Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:03:50Z Hexstream: theos: I see them, but a few people out of ~400 are unlikely to make a difference so as to warrant a repost. 2015-01-07T17:04:20Z theos: Hexstream are you having a bad day? 2015-01-07T17:05:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:07:47Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T17:10:17Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: don't waste your life by reading this) 2015-01-07T17:15:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:15:17Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-07T17:29:12Z mrkkrp: does anyone know how to get info about terminal / terminal emulator, I'm particulary interested in width (in symbols) and ability to understand ansi escape sequences 2015-01-07T17:29:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:30:09Z banjara joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:30:23Z banjara quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T17:31:28Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:31:48Z JuanDaugherty: terminfo? 2015-01-07T17:32:58Z mrkkrp: maybe, is there bindings to it? 2015-01-07T17:33:48Z Hexstream: (ql:quickload "terminfo") 2015-01-07T17:34:19Z mrkkrp: yes, I see, gonna try it 2015-01-07T17:34:23Z Hexstream: There's also cl-ncurses. 2015-01-07T17:34:39Z dim: that could use some docs, really 2015-01-07T17:35:26Z mrkkrp: https://github.com/furushchev/cl-ncurses 2015-01-07T17:35:28Z mrkkrp: this? 2015-01-07T17:35:40Z Hexstream: Whatever quicklisp loads. :) 2015-01-07T17:36:26Z mrkkrp: sometimes I like to look at repo on github first 2015-01-07T17:36:42Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T17:36:45Z mrkkrp: let's try ncurses too 2015-01-07T17:36:57Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:37:12Z Hexstream: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-ncurses/ (found from https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/cl-ncurses/source.txt) 2015-01-07T17:37:53Z dim: sometime I wish we had (ql:browse "...") and (ql:docs "...") (cc Xach) 2015-01-07T17:38:10Z dim: I know quickdocs is its own separate projects, but maybe it could be used for that nonetheless? 2015-01-07T17:39:48Z Hexstream: ASDF 3 has nice currently-underused options that Quicklisp could leverage for such functionality. 2015-01-07T17:40:41Z hitecnologys: Don't use cl-ncurses! 2015-01-07T17:40:46Z hitecnologys: There's cl-charms! 2015-01-07T17:41:09Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:41:14Z hitecnologys: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms 2015-01-07T17:42:39Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: that was for you, up here. 2015-01-07T17:42:50Z mrkkrp: let's try your charms too :) 2015-01-07T17:44:03Z dxtr joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:44:11Z Hexstream: (ql:system-apropos "ncurses") somehow didn't mention cl-charms. :( 2015-01-07T17:44:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T17:44:27Z mrkkrp: yeah, it's not as old as cl-ncurses 2015-01-07T17:44:47Z hitecnologys: Hexstream: because it doesn't have ncurses in it's name? 2015-01-07T17:45:12Z mrkkrp: I think quicklisp just looks at package names 2015-01-07T17:45:13Z dim: Unable to load foreign library (LIBCURSES). Error opening shared object "libncursesw.so.5": dlopen(libncursesw.so.5, 10): image not found. 2015-01-07T17:45:20Z dim: do I hate that kind of errors. 2015-01-07T17:45:28Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:46:00Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T17:46:00Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:46:05Z dim: I have /usr/local/Cellar/ncurses/5.9/lib/libncursesw.5.dylib on my system, just please find it. 2015-01-07T17:46:07Z mrkkrp: what if every package would give quicklisp collection of relevant keywords 2015-01-07T17:46:14Z hitecnologys: mrkkrp: it also has nice high-level API done by Quadrescence. 2015-01-07T17:46:18Z Hexstream: hitecnologys: I expected ql:system-apropos to look in ASDF :description as well as the name, and for cl-charms to have "ncurses" in its description... 2015-01-07T17:46:41Z mrkkrp: and then quicklisp could do some search based on these keywords 2015-01-07T17:46:42Z Hexstream: (Not sure which of those assumptions failed, but at least one.) 2015-01-07T17:46:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:46:52Z hitecnologys: dim: did you run `brew link`? 2015-01-07T17:47:05Z hitecnologys: dim: I thought it's supposed to link those to where they belong. 2015-01-07T17:47:20Z dim: Warning: ncurses is keg-only and must be linked with --force Note that doing so can interfere with building software. 2015-01-07T17:47:46Z hitecnologys: Hexstream: :description of cl-charms doesn't have "ncurses", it says "curses". 2015-01-07T17:48:02Z Xach: mrkkrp: quickdocs.org does that sort of 2015-01-07T17:48:21Z hitecnologys: dim: hmm. Well, can't help you with those. I don't have OS X around. 2015-01-07T17:48:53Z dim: no pb, thanks for trying to help already 2015-01-07T17:48:59Z Hexstream: Well, (ql:system-apropos "curses") is not any more successful. :( (But I guess package search is technically out of scope for quicklisp (?)) 2015-01-07T17:49:09Z dim: I don't really need it now btw, just wanted to do curses dev someday 2015-01-07T17:49:12Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:49:15Z dim: well someday is not today that's all 2015-01-07T17:49:25Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-01-07T17:49:57Z hitecnologys: dim: I could try doing more extensive testing but it's going to take time. Considering my usual time estimations, I'd say it's going to take years. 2015-01-07T17:50:01Z hitecnologys: beach: evening. 2015-01-07T17:50:06Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T17:50:22Z hitecnologys: dim: and that's not even a joke. 2015-01-07T17:50:35Z beach: SBCL question: How can I use the foreign function interface to call a function written in C that takes Common Lisp arguments and returns Common Lisp values? 2015-01-07T17:51:10Z Hexstream: Ok, I guess I'll know to try quickdocs search next time, it does find cl-charms given "ncurses". 2015-01-07T17:51:40Z mrkkrp: oh no, terminfo system is provided by linedit package 2015-01-07T17:52:47Z c74d joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:52:48Z beach: I suppose I need something similar to EXTERN-ALIEN, but where the types are all T. 2015-01-07T17:53:12Z aggrolite joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:53:25Z MutSbeta joined #lisp 2015-01-07T17:54:22Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-01-07T17:55:11Z nyef: Hrm. Takes and returns CL values? That'd play merry hell with the GC, but... 2015-01-07T17:55:27Z beach: I don't care. It's just an experiment. 2015-01-07T17:55:47Z beach: I could use WITHOUT-GCING or whatever it's called. 2015-01-07T17:55:52Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-07T17:55:57Z nyef: Your magic is to declare them as taking and returning unsigned words, and using SB-KERNEL:GET-LISP-OBJ-ADDRESS and SB-KERNEL:MAKE-LISP-OBJ, if I remember the names right. 2015-01-07T17:56:31Z beach: "unsigned words" as in unsigned-int? 2015-01-07T17:56:32Z nyef: And, yeah, either explicitly pinning the objects that you need or using WITHOUT-GCING should help. 2015-01-07T17:57:01Z nyef: (unsigned #.sb-vm:n-word-bits) or whatever it is. 2015-01-07T17:57:14Z beach: OK. I think I can do that. Thanks. 2015-01-07T17:57:15Z nyef: I forget what the actual type is called, if there is one. 2015-01-07T17:57:28Z beach: I can figure that out. 2015-01-07T17:57:43Z beach: Now that I know the general method. 2015-01-07T17:57:52Z nyef: You're at the point of doing code generation? 2015-01-07T17:57:59Z beach: No. Unrelated. 2015-01-07T17:58:02Z nyef: Ah, okay. 2015-01-07T17:58:48Z nyef: The other bit is that heap allocation from alien code is more than a little tricky. To the point where I'm not sure that it CAN be reliable right now. 2015-01-07T17:58:57Z beach: I don't need that. 2015-01-07T17:59:05Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T17:59:06Z beach: I might need to call Common Lisp from C though. 2015-01-07T17:59:20Z beach: ... but I take it there is funcall0 .. funcall3 2015-01-07T17:59:43Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:00:39Z nyef: That there is. 2015-01-07T18:00:49Z nyef: Or you can declare a callback. 2015-01-07T18:01:11Z beach: I am writing a paper on how to implement :FROM-END T in an efficient way, and I need to call a foreign function with an object, a list, an integer, and (if possible) a function to compare the object to elements of the list. 2015-01-07T18:01:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-07T18:02:32Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T18:02:56Z beach: Are the functions funcall0 .. funcall3 automatically linked in by the foreign library loader? 2015-01-07T18:03:12Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-07T18:03:15Z nyef: I have no idea. 2015-01-07T18:03:28Z beach: OK, never mind. I'll just try it. 2015-01-07T18:03:38Z nyef: Worst-case, you can declare a callback for funcall? 2015-01-07T18:03:53Z beach: How does one declare callbacks? 2015-01-07T18:04:15Z nyef: It's in the manual somewhere. Might be DEFINE-CALLBACK or something. 2015-01-07T18:04:23Z beach: OK. Thanks. 2015-01-07T18:04:32Z beach: This information should keep me busy for a while. 2015-01-07T18:04:46Z Bicyclidine: you're writing find in C? 2015-01-07T18:05:13Z beach: Bicyclidine: COUNT actually, or rather part of it. 2015-01-07T18:05:34Z beach: Xach: Thanks for your mail about external and exported objects. 2015-01-07T18:05:36Z Bicyclidine: sounds like a pain either way. doing a speed comparison? 2015-01-07T18:06:18Z beach: Bicyclidine: It is not meant to be production code. I am just trying to obtain an estimate of what performance is possible. 2015-01-07T18:06:44Z Bicyclidine: well, i assumed that from not caring about GC problems, and also that it's a paper :p 2015-01-07T18:06:57Z beach: Exactly. 2015-01-07T18:06:57Z Hache quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:07:08Z beach: Oh, dinner. Got to go. I might be back later. 2015-01-07T18:07:12Z Xach: beach: you're welcome. 2015-01-07T18:07:20Z Xach: no! don't go yet! 2015-01-07T18:07:24Z alakra joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:07:32Z Xach: you haven't admitted how small your family is! 2015-01-07T18:08:04Z jlongster joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:08:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:12:11Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:15:09Z s00pcan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T18:15:20Z pjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T18:15:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:16:37Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:17:51Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-07T18:19:32Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:22:37Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T18:22:54Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:25:42Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:29:42Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T18:30:51Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T18:31:03Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:31:07Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T18:31:24Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:31:48Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T18:33:51Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:38:11Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:38:26Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:39:35Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:40:32Z alakra: \q 2015-01-07T18:40:54Z alakra quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2015-01-07T18:43:43Z alakra joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:45:42Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:46:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:46:58Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T18:48:28Z rtra quit (Quit: "") 2015-01-07T18:49:57Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:50:01Z Puffin joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:51:54Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:52:19Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:52:30Z playnu_com_ar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T18:53:13Z Puffin is now known as BitPuffin 2015-01-07T18:53:27Z mingvs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:53:57Z jasom: are we comparing family sizes now? 2015-01-07T18:54:34Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:54:34Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T18:55:31Z playnu_com_ar joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:56:54Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:57:56Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-07T18:58:07Z Ainieco quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-07T19:00:24Z dim: is it possible when depending on cffi libs from a CL application to make it so that the C modules are only loaded on demand? 2015-01-07T19:00:46Z dim: I'm using buildapp to produce the application's binary (save-lisp-and-die) 2015-01-07T19:01:12Z jasom: dim: you need to change the way the cffi lib is written to do so 2015-01-07T19:01:13Z dim: my understanding is that at compile time the libs are loaded when the systems are "bringed in" 2015-01-07T19:01:41Z dim: I'm currently using hooks for a very limited aspect of that: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp 2015-01-07T19:02:10Z dim: in the save hook I unload libs, only to restore them at init time 2015-01-07T19:02:26Z dim: I guess I could defer loading libs until I know I need'em 2015-01-07T19:02:27Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T19:02:50Z jasom: IIRC use-foreign-library is when it gets loaded 2015-01-07T19:03:22Z playnu_com_ar: cffi does not load the library in memory only when load-foreign-library is called? 2015-01-07T19:03:22Z dim: yeah, and that happens when? 2015-01-07T19:03:59Z dim: and (defmacro use-foreign-library (name) `(load-foreign-library ',name)) 2015-01-07T19:04:05Z dim: I'm not sure I follow here 2015-01-07T19:04:53Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:05:32Z jasom: dim: as a top-level-form it will happen at load time 2015-01-07T19:05:47Z dim: yeah, ok 2015-01-07T19:06:05Z dim: but then when the save-lisp-application-and-die image is started, it's load-time all over again? 2015-01-07T19:06:13Z jasom: no 2015-01-07T19:06:35Z jasom: IIRC sbcl does some magic with DLLs to reload them; on ccl you need to do it manually 2015-01-07T19:07:26Z jasom: ah, read the SLAD documentation: "Foreign objects loaded with sb-alien:load-shared-object are automatically reloaded on startup, but references to foreign symbols do not survive intact on all platforms: in this case a warning is signalled when saving the core." 2015-01-07T19:07:34Z dim: SLAD docs? 2015-01-07T19:07:39Z jasom: save-lisp-and-die 2015-01-07T19:07:43Z dim: oh, ok 2015-01-07T19:08:12Z pnpuff left #lisp 2015-01-07T19:08:21Z jasom: it is better IMO to *not* load-foreign-library before saving the image, but rather upon restart. 2015-01-07T19:08:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:09:00Z dim: well but then I need to fork the systems I depend on not to do that? 2015-01-07T19:09:09Z jasom: dim: yup, or submit an upstream PR 2015-01-07T19:09:15Z dim: and just for "compiling" at that 2015-01-07T19:09:39Z dim: do you know of a system doing it "properly" then, so that I can at least model against it 2015-01-07T19:09:45Z jasom: hmm 2015-01-07T19:10:28Z jasom: I think cl-gtk does it that way 2015-01-07T19:15:06Z dim: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/blob/master/glib/glib.init.lisp ? 2015-01-07T19:15:11Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T19:16:21Z MutSbeta quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-07T19:16:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T19:17:16Z jasom: ah that's right, it loads it no matter what, but will also reinitialize on image load 2015-01-07T19:17:20Z jasom: not quite what you want 2015-01-07T19:17:55Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-07T19:18:02Z dim: exactly, I want to ship a /usr/bin/pgloader program that will not load e.g. freetds.so unless when migrating from a MSSQL source 2015-01-07T19:18:18Z dim: so that users don't have to install freetds when loading CSV data 2015-01-07T19:18:27Z capcar joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:20:48Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:25:35Z mrkkrp: how to detect whether standard output is terminal or not (e.g. it has been redirected) ? 2015-01-07T19:25:47Z jasom: dim: as long as you call (load-foreign-library) before you call any freetds stuff you should be fine 2015-01-07T19:26:10Z Bicyclidine: mrkkrp: there's interactive-stream-p, but there's no terminals in the standard 2015-01-07T19:26:12Z jasom: dim: you could try unloading it before saving the image; that might work to stop sbcl from loading it on image restore 2015-01-07T19:26:35Z dim: trying that yeah 2015-01-07T19:26:37Z jasom: mrkkrp: iolib and sb-posix probably provide ways to do that via posixy calls 2015-01-07T19:27:53Z dim: mrkkrp: what if you stash *standard-output* away in your own var then compare with eq? 2015-01-07T19:28:07Z jasom: sb-posix doesn't provide it 2015-01-07T19:29:17Z jasom: iolib does provide an (fd-tty-p) 2015-01-07T19:30:09Z jasom: if you don't want to bring in all of iolib just for that, it would be fairly easy to write a wrapper using the cffi groveller 2015-01-07T19:30:50Z mrkkrp: jasom, yeah I'm already into something like this with terminfo 2015-01-07T19:31:16Z mrkkrp: I need only tigetnum from there... 2015-01-07T19:32:18Z mrkkrp: Bicyclidine: can you give me example of interactive stream that's not a terminal ? 2015-01-07T19:32:29Z Bicyclidine: Slime repl? 2015-01-07T19:32:40Z mrkkrp: hm... 2015-01-07T19:32:46Z mrkkrp: let's check 2015-01-07T19:33:17Z Bicyclidine: I think what "interactive" means is impl-defined. if you want a terminal specifically you'll probably need the posix stuff. 2015-01-07T19:33:21Z jasom: mrkkrp: what "interactive-stream" means is impl define 2015-01-07T19:33:34Z jasom: it would be conforming to always assume stdin/stdout are interactive I think 2015-01-07T19:33:59Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T19:34:02Z Bicyclidine: none of terminal-io and standard-*put are interactive in my repl. well then. 2015-01-07T19:34:47Z mrkkrp: in mine too 2015-01-07T19:34:49Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T19:35:04Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:36:55Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2015-01-07T19:37:26Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:40:16Z mingvs joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:40:37Z mrkkrp: Bicyclidine: it's interactive if I call it from my terminal emulator, maybe it's sufficient for my purposes... 2015-01-07T19:44:00Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T19:46:43Z dandersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T19:48:41Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:49:21Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:49:33Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T19:49:34Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:51:32Z nuk3 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:51:32Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:52:39Z nuk3: hello everyoe 2015-01-07T19:53:23Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T19:53:25Z mrkkrp: hello 2015-01-07T19:53:46Z nuk3: anyone able to assist with mu4e and multiple accounts? 2015-01-07T19:54:05Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T19:54:23Z nuk3: specifically regarding (wrong-type-argument listp mu4e-sent-folder) 2015-01-07T19:54:40Z alexherbo2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T19:55:32Z Hexstream: nuk3: This channel is about Common Lisp. You might have more luck in #emacs. 2015-01-07T19:56:33Z nuk3: Thanks, will do so. 2015-01-07T20:00:55Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:01:51Z aggrolite quit (Quit: aggrolite) 2015-01-07T20:03:19Z francogrex joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:04:15Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:05:44Z hekmek quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-07T20:10:53Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:11:08Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:12:19Z asoneth quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-07T20:18:49Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T20:20:05Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:23:31Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:26:16Z mrkkrp: does anyone use this: https://github.com/capitaomorte/sly ? 2015-01-07T20:26:28Z playnu_com_ar: yes! 2015-01-07T20:26:29Z playnu_com_ar: i do 2015-01-07T20:27:08Z mrkkrp: is it better than slime in your opinion? 2015-01-07T20:27:59Z nyef: ... My interest waned at "direct fork of SLIME". 2015-01-07T20:28:31Z playnu_com_ar: i am a noob in cl, i dont see any practical difference 2015-01-07T20:29:35Z Bicyclidine: contribs with asdf? i thought most slime contribs are elisp. 2015-01-07T20:30:08Z Neptu joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:31:00Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:31:12Z Neptu_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T20:31:12Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-07T20:31:13Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:31:13Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T20:31:13Z z0d joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:31:14Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:32:34Z dlowe: playnu_com_ar: you probably won't without some experience 2015-01-07T20:35:34Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-07T20:35:55Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:37:25Z Jirachier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T20:37:34Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:38:37Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T20:39:33Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:42:36Z mrkkrp: how do you distribute your programs: as fasls or as stand alone executables, and if the former, how user is supposed to run a fasl? Do you write shell-scripts like sbcl --script my-fasl.fasl or something? It's interesting what most people do :) 2015-01-07T20:43:24Z Bicyclidine: fasls would be hard to distribute, like, sbcl specifies that using a fasl from another image is undefined, i think 2015-01-07T20:43:47Z nyef: No, it specifies that it doesn't work. 2015-01-07T20:44:00Z Bicyclidine: heh, right. 2015-01-07T20:44:12Z nyef: Well, a fasl from another build of sbcl, if you use a copy of the same build then it's more-or-less fine. 2015-01-07T20:44:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:44:32Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:44:49Z mrkkrp: if I remember correctly stand alone executables are huge 2015-01-07T20:44:55Z nyef: mrkkrp: For me, distribution can be fairly situational. Typically either a source release or an executable, I don't know that I've ever done fasls. 2015-01-07T20:45:07Z nyef: gzip does a nice job on executables. 2015-01-07T20:45:14Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T20:45:47Z aggrolite joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:46:08Z karswell` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:46:56Z mrkkrp: personally I think source is the best option, but I know that some people don't know how to compile it, it's not usable for them... 2015-01-07T20:47:24Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:49:54Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-01-07T20:50:04Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:51:13Z Shinmera: An SBCL binary with core compression should be around 15 mb iirc 2015-01-07T20:51:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:52:12Z dim: is there something provided by cffi allowing to only load a lib when it's not already loaded? 2015-01-07T20:53:13Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:53:28Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:54:02Z mrkkrp: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Libraries.html#Libraries 2015-01-07T20:54:19Z mrkkrp: dim, use-foreign-library 2015-01-07T20:54:48Z dim: using load-foreigh-library here, but ok, it means I shouldn't worry then 2015-01-07T20:54:49Z ggole quit 2015-01-07T20:55:08Z dim: and stop logging so much 2015-01-07T20:56:11Z nyef: mrkkrp: Oh, and I typically only distribute executables to machines that I have some measure of control over. 2015-01-07T20:56:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:56:32Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:57:14Z dim: Undefined alien: "dberrhandle" 2015-01-07T20:57:23Z dim: not that easy, actually. 2015-01-07T20:57:54Z jasom: mrkkrp: it's the images that are big, and "huge" is a relative term 2015-01-07T20:58:29Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-01-07T20:58:35Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:59:35Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T20:59:49Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:59:50Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T20:59:51Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:02:33Z mrkkrp: do you know of any lisp program that can reprogram itself on the fly? 2015-01-07T21:02:47Z _death: sbcl 2015-01-07T21:02:48Z fe[nl]ix: RMS 2015-01-07T21:03:22Z mrkkrp: sbcl? I mean without human participation 2015-01-07T21:04:05Z Bicyclidine: sure, call compile-file, it's all automatic! new functions appear from nowhere! 2015-01-07T21:04:16Z mrkkrp: what RMS? 2015-01-07T21:04:22Z jasom: mrkkrp: you mean it actually writes novel code at runtime? 2015-01-07T21:04:38Z mrkkrp: yes. kinda hacky stuff 2015-01-07T21:04:40Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:04:54Z dlowe: plenty of things do that. 2015-01-07T21:04:59Z dlowe: like Rails 2015-01-07T21:05:04Z Bicyclidine: sbcl even has a "code generator". i tells ya 2015-01-07T21:05:24Z dlowe: but a lisp image essentially is a lisp program that reprograms itself on the fly 2015-01-07T21:05:28Z Bicyclidine: if you want something less complicated you might like sexml. it takes an xml schema and pops out lisp functions for parsing it. 2015-01-07T21:05:43Z Shinmera: amagad (defun foo () (setf (fdefinition 'foo) #'(lambda () "hi")) (foo)) 2015-01-07T21:05:47Z Bicyclidine: er, generating, not parsing 2015-01-07T21:06:00Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:06:18Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:07:45Z dim: mrkkrp: pgloader does that 2015-01-07T21:08:57Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:09:14Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:10:24Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:13:05Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:13:37Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T21:14:19Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:14:33Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:15:41Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-07T21:16:43Z mrkkrp: I just have one idea, but don't have time to hack it.. Imagine something like LIFE game, but creatures in it have some behavior, so aim is to generate perfect algorithm for given world. Creatures start with something simple, and every generation introduces some changes, but the changes are in the code itself. Say program know that it can use 'if', 'when', '+', etc. but it doesn't know how to combine the funct 2015-01-07T21:16:50Z mrkkrp: ions. So it could try various combinations (use restarts) and build code describing behavior. If there are enough creatures and generations we will get optimal algorithm. must be funny thing :) 2015-01-07T21:17:18Z Shinmera: You've discovered genetic programming. 2015-01-07T21:17:44Z mrkkrp: well, I know that the idea is not new 2015-01-07T21:17:53Z dim: mmm, looks like I found where to load the foreign lib 2015-01-07T21:17:59Z mrkkrp: so I asked if you know something like this already implemented 2015-01-07T21:18:02Z dim: looks so fragile 2015-01-07T21:18:39Z dim: pgloader parses a command file at runtime (or CLI args) and generate lisp code from them, the lisp code is compiled (at runtime) then run 2015-01-07T21:18:58Z dlowe: mrkkrp: the wikipedia article for genetic programming has what you want, I think 2015-01-07T21:19:10Z dim: it allows the parser to be kept quite simple, as all it needs to do now is generate lisp code against the internal pgloader API 2015-01-07T21:19:19Z dim: and it forces pgloader to actually have an internal API too 2015-01-07T21:20:38Z Bicyclidine: mrkkrp https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/areas/genetic/ga/systems/0.html https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/areas/alife/0.html 2015-01-07T21:21:14Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:21:28Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:22:07Z mrkkrp: Bicyclidine, oh cool 2015-01-07T21:26:44Z pnpuff left #lisp 2015-01-07T21:28:40Z playnu_com_ar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T21:32:13Z mishoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-07T21:32:29Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:41:06Z jasom: plush (my toy shell) does the same thing converting from POSIX sh to lisp code against an internal api 2015-01-07T21:41:39Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-07T21:43:53Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:45:06Z mrkkrp: jasom, is it really kind of problem that requires genetic programming? 2015-01-07T21:45:07Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T21:48:48Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-01-07T21:49:00Z mrkkrp: jasom, or you're talking about program that just generates code at run-time following some pre-defined algorithm? 2015-01-07T21:49:26Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T21:51:24Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:52:33Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:53:55Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:56:36Z mrkkrp left #lisp 2015-01-07T21:57:20Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:57:27Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T21:59:38Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T21:59:58Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-07T22:00:09Z spintronic joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:00:15Z nicdev joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:04:03Z nyef quit (Quit: Heading out) 2015-01-07T22:04:52Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:04:54Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T22:07:44Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-07T22:08:31Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T22:10:40Z tokenrove: mrkkrp: i ported a genetic programming system that uses a typed lambda calculus language to CL some time ago. it works but it can be hard to choose suitable representations and fitness functions to achieve non-toy results. 2015-01-07T22:11:34Z tokenrove: it's certainly very easy to do in CL where you have the compiler available all the time, though. 2015-01-07T22:13:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:13:34Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T22:14:10Z viaken left #lisp 2015-01-07T22:14:29Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:19:45Z nuk3 quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-07T22:20:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T22:21:30Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:24:06Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-01-07T22:24:49Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:25:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-07T22:25:40Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:25:40Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2015-01-07T22:25:40Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:26:24Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:34:56Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T22:35:52Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:38:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:38:54Z huza joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:39:02Z isoraqathedh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T22:39:28Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-07T22:49:43Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:51:25Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:52:36Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:53:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T22:56:18Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:57:38Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-07T22:58:45Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-07T22:59:30Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T22:59:49Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T23:01:11Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:01:28Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:07:07Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:08:37Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T23:09:56Z spintronic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T23:13:39Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-07T23:17:11Z spintronic joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:19:17Z huza quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:19:24Z s00pcan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-07T23:21:51Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:22:46Z Kohelet quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-07T23:24:28Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:24:51Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:26:45Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-07T23:27:20Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T23:27:20Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-07T23:29:29Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:31:36Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2015-01-07T23:32:21Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:33:17Z s00pcan quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-07T23:38:09Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:38:31Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:41:48Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:43:19Z ajp joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:43:24Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:43:29Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:48:59Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:49:15Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:49:17Z Alkahest joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:49:38Z spintronic quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-07T23:49:40Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:53:09Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:54:00Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2015-01-07T23:56:54Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-07T23:56:54Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 2015-01-07T23:58:34Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-07T23:59:00Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp