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2015-01-06T00:05:29Z jasom: should (incf (gethash result table 0)) work for keeping a sum of results?
2015-01-06T00:06:08Z dim: why not?
2015-01-06T00:06:22Z dim: but yes incf over gethash works, that's the magic behind "places"
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2015-01-06T00:06:57Z jasom: ah, I found the issue; I forgot that you need to assign the result of sort
2015-01-06T00:07:46Z jasom: It's a destructive sort, not something that modifies the sequence to be sorted
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2015-01-06T00:13:04Z dim: how to include literal TABs within a format string?
2015-01-06T00:14:03Z dim: well I guess just typing it in is valid an answer
2015-01-06T00:14:12Z dim: C-q runs the command quoted-insert FTW
2015-01-06T00:14:26Z Bicyclidine: could also do ~c with #\Tab if you really wanted
2015-01-06T00:15:27Z antoszka: that's what I do
2015-01-06T00:16:06Z antoszka: typing it into the format string directly seems to be both rather suspectible to breakage by editors and unreadable.
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2015-01-06T00:18:02Z rpg: antoszka: and if you have a revision control system with a "no tabs" policy (cf. jwz on the subject of tabs), they'll get stripped out.
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2015-01-06T00:18:16Z rpg: Literal tabs are a really bad idea.
2015-01-06T00:18:17Z antoszka: rpg: yeah, another argument.
2015-01-06T00:18:21Z antoszka: Definitely bad.
2015-01-06T00:18:37Z rpg: ~C #\tab is the way to go.
2015-01-06T00:18:42Z antoszka: +1
2015-01-06T00:19:11Z rpg: I've had to do that to make tab separated files.... It *is* ugly, though.
2015-01-06T00:19:56Z rpg: Need to point out to Fare that if CL is going to be good for scripting, it's going to need string interpolation.
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2015-01-06T00:20:06Z antoszka: cl-interpol?
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2015-01-06T00:20:50Z rpg: antoszka: I didn't know that was a thing.
2015-01-06T00:20:54Z rpg is looking...
2015-01-06T00:20:56Z antoszka: There is :)
2015-01-06T00:21:40Z rpg: That's great. trying to write a shell-script sort of thing with FORMAT is super-painful. Requires too much looking back and forth to make for readable code.
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2015-01-06T00:22:25Z antoszka: WRT tab-separated files, the format string looks ugly, but I usually separate the tabs and important values by case to make my life easier. And then all the arguments in consecutive lines, so it's not that bad.
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2015-01-06T00:22:49Z antoszka: I might try cl-interpol next time now that you reminded me it's there :)
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2015-01-06T00:23:03Z rpg: antoszka: I think I made a special-purpose macro for TS file generation.
2015-01-06T00:23:40Z antoszka: Nice. Maybe share it one day if you come across it (what an anaphoric sentence :))
2015-01-06T00:24:08Z dim: antoszka: would have done that, but in that case the format string is indirect, thanks to using "~{~}" (because it makes some things simpler in that context)
2015-01-06T00:24:13Z rpg: WIll do. What you want is to recognize that the individual items are field values.
2015-01-06T00:24:26Z dim: I could have reviewed my usage of ~{~} that said, but didn't feel like it
2015-01-06T00:24:28Z dim: it's late...
2015-01-06T00:24:50Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/ad8fb0b2a4f97ae32a05d780e5cecccc852be007 if you want to review and comment ;-)
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2015-01-06T00:26:11Z dim: about tab-separated files, I use cl-csv
2015-01-06T00:26:35Z dim: I mainly consume them, btw, but sometimes I need to produce some too
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2015-01-06T00:27:12Z dim: CSV is a very bad format specs (hint: it's not a spec), but people seem to be so eager to generate a mess they won't be able to dig themselves out of
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2015-01-06T00:29:56Z rpg: dim: I'm old and not a Windows person, so I always use TSV instead of CSV.
2015-01-06T00:30:12Z rpg: night all.
2015-01-06T00:30:15Z antoszka: Agree, terrible. I'm luckily only outputting a certain custom tab-separated-like format for one of my internal ${DAYJOB} tools.
2015-01-06T00:30:20Z dim: rpg: consider dbf files
2015-01-06T00:30:34Z dim: I've been told that Excel knows how to read and write them
2015-01-06T00:30:49Z dim: and the format is way more sane than xls or csv or tsv
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2015-01-06T00:31:03Z rpg: dim: Thanks for the pointer. Good night!
2015-01-06T00:31:14Z antoszka: Outside of the lisp world, there's a nice commandline tool (csvfix) for stream manipulation of csv-like files.
2015-01-06T00:31:25Z dim: misread not a into you being a windows person, hence the Excel reference, sorry about that
2015-01-06T00:31:30Z dim: I shall go and sleep now I gues
2015-01-06T00:31:32Z dim: s
2015-01-06T00:31:37Z dim: yeah. gn.
2015-01-06T00:31:39Z antoszka: gn
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2015-01-06T00:37:04Z White_Flame: Is there a recommended Lisp lib for pulling in BNF grammar descriptions and using them to parse text? Searching around hasn't gotten me very far.
2015-01-06T00:38:14Z jasom: cl-earley-parser?
2015-01-06T00:38:25Z jasom: that's what my searching turned up
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2015-01-06T00:39:39Z jasom: https://github.com/lisp/de.setf.atn-parser <-- found that too
2015-01-06T00:41:35Z White_Flame: ah, I actually need EBNF
2015-01-06T00:41:49Z White_Flame: so we'll see if these options accept that
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2015-01-06T00:42:35Z jasom: There was ebnf-parser, but I think it has been lost
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2015-01-06T00:43:51Z jasom: the readme de.setf.atn-parser says it can parse the SPARQL grammar, and that's in EBNF
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2015-01-06T00:44:54Z White_Flame: ok, cool
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2015-01-06T00:45:18Z White_Flame: I did see this, noting it may or may not be an official copy of ebnf-parser http://git.tentpost.com/?p=lisp/ebnf-parser.git;a=summary
2015-01-06T00:45:57Z antoszka: Must be surviving on some people's hard disks :)
2015-01-06T00:46:12Z White_Flame: yep
2015-01-06T00:46:25Z White_Flame: something quicklisp-able would be preferred, but if not I"ll grab a lib the "old way"
2015-01-06T00:46:37Z White_Flame: it just makes it harder to distribute cleanly
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2015-01-06T01:25:43Z zRecursive: Can we use #'inst in sbcl directly ? (princ (inst shr #b10 1)) doesnot work.
2015-01-06T01:26:43Z nyef: zRecursive: What are you actually trying to do?
2015-01-06T01:27:06Z nyef: (Note that INST is a macro, and it requires context set up by ASSEMBLE.)
2015-01-06T01:27:10Z zRecursive: sb assembly
2015-01-06T01:27:23Z nyef: Too vague. What are you ACTUALLY trying to do.
2015-01-06T01:27:26Z nyef: ?
2015-01-06T01:28:13Z zRecursive: studying inst's intrinsic, how does it work ?
2015-01-06T01:28:35Z nyef: Ah. It works on the FM principle.
2015-01-06T01:28:41Z nyef: ... No, wait, that was the disassembler.
2015-01-06T01:29:19Z nyef: So, you want to understand the mechanism, not simply use it?
2015-01-06T01:29:20Z zRecursive: it seems similar with intel x86 instructions ?
2015-01-06T01:29:40Z zRecursive: 1:1 relation ?
2015-01-06T01:30:29Z zRecursive: nyef: i want to know how it is translated to native code
2015-01-06T01:30:58Z nyef: Yeah, it's fairly close to 1:1. There are a few ways to have INST issue an instruction sequence, though.
2015-01-06T01:31:38Z zRecursive: great!
2015-01-06T01:32:39Z nyef: The guts are, of course, in SYS:SRC;COMPILER;ASSEM.LISP, and the instruction definitions are in SYS:SRC;COMPILER;X86;INSTS.LISP (or the corresponding file for other backends).
2015-01-06T01:33:13Z zRecursive: thanks
2015-01-06T01:33:14Z nyef: And some aspects of the machine definition (register names and such) are in SYS:SRC;COMPILER;X86;VM.LISP.
2015-01-06T01:42:39Z nyef: Hrm. No minion, no specbot? Glad they're not MY responsibility anymore. /-:
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2015-01-06T01:45:29Z nyef: zRecursive: You're not looking to write a new compiler backend, are you?
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2015-01-06T01:53:12Z nyef: Oh, wow. The SBCL ARM port took a while. The first time I started to try it was in late December 2007.
2015-01-06T01:53:29Z nyef: Which would put the total time elapsed at most of six and a half years.
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2015-01-06T02:04:37Z zRecursive: nyef: sorry, just come back.
2015-01-06T02:05:09Z gtasso: hello anyone using cl-typesetting here ?
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2015-01-06T02:05:43Z nyef: gtasso: I'm not at this point, but might be within the week.
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2015-01-06T02:06:26Z gtasso: thanks nyef: just having some issues with tables though i might ask here
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2015-01-06T02:09:06Z zRecursive: nyef: i just want to understand more deeply abut sbcl.  In fact, i am worried if sbcl will be next CLISP/ECL which arenot actively developed now.  BTW, does sbcl project make any profit now ?
2015-01-06T02:10:39Z zRecursive: maybe off topic though
2015-01-06T02:11:00Z nyef: AIUI, the SBCL project isn't intended as a profit center.
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2015-01-06T02:14:07Z akkad: abcl really ramps up the cpus just loading libs... :P
2015-01-06T02:14:10Z zRecursive: But money is essential supporting long time development of a project. IIRC, openbsd ever asked for donation before long.
2015-01-06T02:14:30Z akkad: well Theo lives off like 13k/year
2015-01-06T02:14:48Z akkad: all based cd/tshirt/distro sales. that's why you are guaranteed to get a release every 6 months
2015-01-06T02:15:46Z zRecursive: yeah
2015-01-06T02:17:07Z zRecursive: akkad: how about sbcl team ?
2015-01-06T02:17:53Z Xach: zRecursive: SBCL is maintained by unpaid volunteers whose primary work is not SBCL
2015-01-06T02:18:04Z Xach: it is a fortunate coincidence that anything happens at all
2015-01-06T02:18:36Z Xach: there have been periods of little activity. we are currently in a period that is somewhat more active.
2015-01-06T02:18:59Z zRecursive: awesome
2015-01-06T02:19:01Z Xach: sbcl has been very lucky to get the attention of a handful of really great people
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2015-01-06T02:21:30Z akkad: much cross polination with other lisps?
2015-01-06T02:21:36Z zRecursive: Xach: How many people have commit rights now ?
2015-01-06T02:22:36Z Xach: akkad: no.
2015-01-06T02:23:02Z Xach: zRecursive: I don't know. Probably many have the right but do not exercise it any more.
2015-01-06T02:23:27Z nyef: akkad: For a while there was some level of interaction with the CMUCL developers, but that seems to have fallen largely by the way. Something about there only being one CMUCL developer left...
2015-01-06T02:25:16Z White_Flame: What is the proper way to macro generate a set of inter-dependent defuns?  (progn (defun...) (defun...) ...) throws style warnings in SBCL about undefined functions
2015-01-06T02:25:27Z White_Flame: obviously, labels can do this, but what's the toplevel equivalent if any?
2015-01-06T02:25:36Z nyef: White_Flame: PROGN preserves toplevelness.
2015-01-06T02:26:03Z nyef: So it's the thing to use. Or maybe a LOCALLY, but that's pretty much PROGN-with-declarations.
2015-01-06T02:27:23Z nyef: I've seen things that I know were originally for SBCL in CMUCL, but SBCL and CMUCL are relatively easy to port across because they have a shared history.
2015-01-06T02:28:51Z White_Flame: I guess (labels ..funs.. (declare inline ...funs) (defun a (...) (labels-a ...)) ...) would technically define them order-independently
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2015-01-06T02:29:38Z White_Flame: though I'm not sure if defun inside labels does bad things to toplevelness
2015-01-06T02:29:49Z nyef: That's bleeding frightening. Can you put together a small test-case for the undefined-function style-warnings in sbcl?
2015-01-06T02:30:00Z nyef: (The ones from using PROGN, that is.)
2015-01-06T02:30:09Z White_Flame: (progn (defun a () (b)) (defun b () 3))
2015-01-06T02:30:11Z akkad wonders where all the bolix devs went
2015-01-06T02:30:17Z rme: White_Flame: If the source code for the functions that call each other are in a file, compile-file won't (or shouldn't) warn, I believe.
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2015-01-06T02:30:55Z White_Flame: right, I've been calling stuff at the REPL, that might be a differentiator
2015-01-06T02:31:06Z nyef: Yeah, that'd be fairly plausible.
2015-01-06T02:31:30Z White_Flame: this is from ebnf-parser's (defgrammar "rule = foo; ...") call
2015-01-06T02:31:43Z White_Flame: so interactive use without problems would be desirable
2015-01-06T02:32:01Z White_Flame: that expands to a bunch of interdependent, unordered, (progn (defun ..) ..)s
2015-01-06T02:32:08Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-01-06T02:32:18Z nyef: Maybe involve WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT?
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2015-01-06T02:35:58Z White_Flame: nyef: that works for the 1-liner above.  Will try bolting it into ebnf-parser
2015-01-06T02:36:29Z White_Flame: Another really annoying thing is that it's a macro that takes a literal string argument, so (defgrammar var) or (defgrammar (read-file-into-string ..)) doesn't work, but that's a separate problem :-P
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2015-01-06T02:37:43Z oGMo: White_Flame: no non-macro version?
2015-01-06T02:38:22Z White_Flame: correct.  The macro parses the string and generates defun expressions
2015-01-06T02:38:59Z White_Flame: but the output of that parse is considered against additional options passed to defgrammar, which modifies the generated expressions, so it's not quite a simple fix
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2015-01-06T03:45:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-06T03:48:44Z brucem: hey beach
2015-01-06T03:48:47Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-01-06T03:48:51Z brucem: beach: along the lines of what we talked about yesterday: https://github.com/sharplispers/cormanlisp/blob/master/Sys/strings.lisp#L34
2015-01-06T03:49:34Z akkad: ooh pcall
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2015-01-06T03:50:04Z beach: brucem: What am I looking at?  Strings don't have the problem we discussed because you have access to the length in O(1) time.
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2015-01-06T03:50:56Z brucem: beach: if you call string= there with an invalid end, you won't get an error about the bounds until it hits the end of the string and you get an error from reading past the end.
2015-01-06T03:51:11Z oleo: morning
2015-01-06T03:51:43Z beach: brucem: I see.  That does not make sense for strings.
2015-01-06T03:52:06Z brucem: beach: This is almost identical to the code (in Dylan) that I'd run into that made me start looking at this in the first place. :)
2015-01-06T03:52:24Z beach: brucem: I would check that right away and signal an error if :end is greater than the length.
2015-01-06T03:52:42Z nyef: beach: I made more progress on https://github.com/abridgewater/nq-clim/blob/master/geometry/standard-rectangle-set.lisp including commentary updates.
2015-01-06T03:52:51Z beach: brucem: The only reason not to do that is if you have a list so that the length is not readily available.
2015-01-06T03:53:05Z brucem: beach: we agree!
2015-01-06T03:53:16Z beach: brucem: Good!
2015-01-06T03:53:39Z beach: nyef: Excellent!
2015-01-06T03:54:27Z nyef: My next step is to write test cases for overall intersection and difference operations.
2015-01-06T03:55:01Z beach: I thought you had those tests already.  No?
2015-01-06T03:55:09Z nyef: I had them for union operations.
2015-01-06T03:55:24Z beach: I see.
2015-01-06T03:55:35Z nyef: And a set of within-an-X-span intersection tests.
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2015-01-06T03:58:46Z loke: you might want to read the comment to the SBCL implementation of string= (in string.lisp)
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2015-01-06T04:03:13Z xyh: I am just learning the module system, all symbol in common-lisp have a prefix ?! right ?
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2015-01-06T04:03:23Z xyh: and, is the module system of emacs-lisp the same as common-lisp's module system ?
2015-01-06T04:03:48Z Zhivago: Perhaps you mean packages? They're not modules.
2015-01-06T04:04:05Z beach: xyh: There is no such thing as a "prefix" of symbols in Common Lisp, other than when the symbols are printed as text.
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2015-01-06T04:04:21Z beach: xyh: Some symbols belong to a "package".
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2015-01-06T04:12:30Z beach thinks xyh must have fainted from the shock. 
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2015-01-06T04:27:28Z xyh: yes, I mean package.
2015-01-06T04:27:29Z xyh: I can imagine a implementation uses a hash-function,
2015-01-06T04:27:29Z xyh: applys on package-name-string plus symbol-name-string,
2015-01-06T04:27:29Z xyh: to implement the symbol data type by hash-table.
2015-01-06T04:27:29Z xyh: so, any symbol must belong to one package.
2015-01-06T04:28:25Z nyef: "Belong" is such a strong term.
2015-01-06T04:28:40Z xyh: oh, bounded to
2015-01-06T04:28:51Z nyef: A symbol will usually have a "home" package, but not always, and may be "accessible" in multiple packages.
2015-01-06T04:29:26Z nyef: It may also be exported from any of the packages from which it is accessible, but is not required to be exported at all.
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2015-01-06T04:44:43Z beach: xyh: There are no functions named PACKAGE-NAME-STRING or SYMBOL-NAME-STRING.
2015-01-06T04:47:32Z beach: xyh: A package may be implemented as a hash table using the SYMBOL-NAME as a key, but that is not a requirement.
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2015-01-06T05:02:37Z xyh: beach: I mean that package-name-string and symbol-name-string are hash-function's two arguments.
2015-01-06T05:02:54Z xyh: any one knows some readings which compare implementation strategies ?
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2015-01-06T05:03:19Z phadthai: xyh: as a performance improvement, to implement EQ efficiently, some compilers additionally maintain an index (or hash of package+symbol, or symbol address if in a fixed image), such that symbol comparison internally is implemented with fast number comparison at runtime; so internally the implementations are free to use any method, as long it conforms from a user/API perspective
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2015-01-06T05:04:36Z phadthai: hmm I read the code of some implementations but am not sure if some good documentation already exists on this
2015-01-06T05:05:46Z beach: xyh: There is no reason to involve the name of the package in the hash function.
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2015-01-06T05:08:04Z beach: xyh: The packages might be globally organized as a hash table with the name of the package as a key, but that's a different issue.  That table would be used to look up a package, given its name, as needed by FIND-PACKAGE.
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2015-01-06T05:11:09Z xyh: ok~ I ll try to read some code too, maybe SBCL's, to get a better understanding packages.
2015-01-06T05:11:30Z phadthai: xyh: as for modules, the concept exists in common lisp, but it's related to the implementation-specific modules (independent of packages), which the implementation supports loading using REQUIRE (and which user code may provide using PROVIDE); ASDF is generally used for user code today however
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2015-01-06T06:34:43Z Hexstream: beach: https://twitter.com/PaulFDietz/status/552181108100853760
2015-01-06T06:36:03Z beach: Hexstream: Thanks!
2015-01-06T06:36:16Z beach: I might do that.
2015-01-06T06:36:19Z Hexstream: You're welcome!
2015-01-06T06:36:31Z beach: I might place it on GitHub I mean.
2015-01-06T06:37:23Z beach: No word about the license, though. :(  Oh well.
2015-01-06T06:39:27Z Hexstream: Yeah, explicit license info would have been much nicer, but I guess this will do as a preliminary response...
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2015-01-06T06:46:42Z Hexstream: The license question is making me uncomfortable enough that I decided to gently press the question, after all: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/552354971124260866
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2015-01-06T06:58:14Z beach: Great, thanks.
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2015-01-06T07:01:46Z beach: OK, Time to get to work!
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2015-01-06T07:56:01Z chaitanya: is there a way to get the runtime/toplevel options that were used to launch sbcl
2015-01-06T07:56:20Z chaitanya: sb-ext:*posix-argv* doesn't provide them
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2015-01-06T08:22:02Z kanru: provide your own toplevel function?
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2015-01-06T08:45:50Z akkad: what is the file format for windows paths? (load "c:\User\foo\bar.lisp")?
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2015-01-06T08:49:28Z Hexstream: akkad: You need to escape backslashes within strings. "c:\User\foo\bar.lisp" is equivalent to "c:Userfoobar.lisp".
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2015-01-06T08:53:45Z akkad: I was doing the wrong ones. thanks
2015-01-06T08:53:57Z akkad: full CL on a tablet... :P
2015-01-06T08:58:55Z Shinmera: akkad: On SBCL and CCL at least you can also use a forward slash instead of a backslash in windows pathnames (eg #p"C:/foo/bar")
2015-01-06T09:00:33Z akkad: ccl does not not like it.
2015-01-06T09:00:54Z Shinmera: Works fine for me. http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TWpFeQ==
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2015-01-06T09:02:15Z akkad: yeah i kept going back to \
2015-01-06T09:02:32Z akkad: is the ccl editor only available on OSX?
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2015-01-06T09:47:37Z p_l: only on OSX officially, though I recall that it should be partially possible to get it running on Windows or Linux
2015-01-06T09:51:07Z pjb: -
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2015-01-06T11:46:24Z freehck: Hello people.
2015-01-06T11:46:24Z mstevens: hello
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2015-01-06T11:47:08Z splittist: freehck: no love for the bots?
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2015-01-06T12:21:11Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: If I recall you were using my modularize system. Is that right?
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2015-01-06T12:55:28Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: right.
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2015-01-06T12:55:44Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I was porting my Twilightandia thing to it. Not finished, though.
2015-01-06T12:55:56Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: In case you ever defined your own module option expanders, there's been a backwards-compat breaking change in how they work now.
2015-01-06T12:56:20Z Shinmera: everything else should still work fine (or better, actually)
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2015-01-06T13:00:08Z Shinmera now kind of wishes it was possible to notify users of important changes when the system is updated in Quicklisp
2015-01-06T13:01:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I see. I'll look into that, thanks.
2015-01-06T13:01:16Z Shinmera: If you didn't use that particular feature you won't have to worry.
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2015-01-06T13:05:10Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: news system for Quicklisp would actually be very nice feature. Gentoo's portage has similar functionality and it's very convenient.
2015-01-06T13:05:43Z hitecnologys: Xach: what's your opinion on that matters?
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2015-01-06T13:44:47Z Xach: In the past, people who wrote and released libraries would write about the updates and changes on their blog or mailing list or some other venue. I don't think that should stop.
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2015-01-06T13:49:00Z mstevens: I always liked that system
2015-01-06T13:49:42Z Xach: It's work, for sure, on both ends
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2015-01-06T13:51:22Z pjb: news:comp.lang.lisp
2015-01-06T13:53:41Z Hexstream: Not making backwards-incompatible changes (and designing APIs in a conservative way that is relatively future-proof) is also a good way to avoid having to announce said changes. :D (Not always feasible or desirable, I know.)
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2015-01-06T13:54:24Z mstevens: quicklisp *is* amazingness, though
2015-01-06T13:54:36Z Hexstream: I guess it could be nice to have a system to follow particular programmers or libraries irrespective of where or how they make announcements, but that doesn't have to have anything to do with Quicklisp.
2015-01-06T13:55:41Z mstevens: CPAN has an rss feed thing, although I don't think you can filter it
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2015-01-06T13:55:43Z Shinmera: I suppose one could make an extension to quicklisp that hooks into update-dist and searches updated systems for changes in a changelog.txt file or similar.
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2015-01-06T13:57:12Z Xach: I'd love to facilitate a way to subscribe to change info via atom or rss
2015-01-06T13:57:36Z Xach: like feeds.quicklisp.org/project/<project-name>
2015-01-06T13:57:51Z freehck: Interesting thing: I wanted to define a hash with a specific test-function provided by me. I've read, that make-hash-table has a :test flag, but I don't really understand what values it can support. I saw that I could write there 'equal and #'equal. But it seems I can't write something like (make-hash-table :test #'my-equal). Why?
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2015-01-06T13:58:47Z mstevens: Xach: add some sort of simple changelist format, shouldn't be too much of a hack?
2015-01-06T13:59:16Z eudoxia: hm, a community-standard changelog format might be cool
2015-01-06T13:59:19Z Shinmera: mstevens: But then everyone's going to complain about the format
2015-01-06T13:59:22Z soggybread: in gentoo i'ts only for notifying that "This update for <package> breaks something and may require manual intervention to work properly", and not for general changelist stuff
2015-01-06T13:59:23Z H4ns: freehck: common lisp does not allow user-defined :test functions in hash tables.
2015-01-06T13:59:30Z mstevens: Shinmera: they can suffer
2015-01-06T14:00:03Z freehck: H4ns: it's sad. =(
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2015-01-06T14:00:19Z eudoxia: Shinmera: yeah, but, using the format gets you in the useful quicklisp feeds, and not using it, doesn't
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2015-01-06T14:00:34Z Shinmera: eudoxia: And that's going to stop people how?
2015-01-06T14:00:54Z eudoxia: Shinmera: it won't stop them complaining, but it will encourage the use of the format
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2015-01-06T14:02:32Z Xach: I've always preferred extracting info in a way that does not require much or any participation
2015-01-06T14:02:43Z Shinmera: I feel like introducing files that are specially handled by quicklisp rather than ASDF would create a weird duality. Quicklisp works so well in part because it's practically invisible to the library developer.
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2015-01-06T14:03:53Z hitecnologys: Indeed. Ideally, QL shouldn't require developer to do anything for his library to work with it.
2015-01-06T14:04:17Z mstevens: even with this proposal, the library would still *work* with QL if you did nothing, you'd just get extra functionality
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2015-01-06T14:04:25Z eudoxia: right, but this wouldn't be necessary to use quicklisp, it would just be an addon
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2015-01-06T14:05:22Z Shinmera: It still requires the reserving of a specific filename or type for quicklisp and if you don't use the format quicklisp expects things could not go according to intention.
2015-01-06T14:05:22Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: addon is even worse. You'd have to install it.
2015-01-06T14:05:30Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: and keep it updated. And so on, and so on.
2015-01-06T14:05:34Z mstevens: alternative suggestion: generate an automatic changelog based on changes to the system definition. "Package description changed from X to Y, version number went up, 42 new components added"
2015-01-06T14:05:41Z mstevens: it's not thatr amazing though
2015-01-06T14:06:09Z Shinmera: That wouldn't fix the core issue: Notifying users of changes that might break their uses or whatnot.
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2015-01-06T14:06:24Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: no, it just requires you to add a file to your repo describing changes in a certain format. then whatever code runs on quicklisp.org picks it up and makes an RSS feed of changes
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2015-01-06T14:06:39Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: one could just bump major version.
2015-01-06T14:06:47Z Xach: It would be nice if it was much easier, given a project's name, to find out where to get more info about that project.
2015-01-06T14:06:56Z Xach: If project breaks, you can follow up.
2015-01-06T14:07:03Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: ah, I see. I thought it was client side.
2015-01-06T14:07:25Z Shinmera: Xach: Well, there's the HOMEPAGE arg in ASDF3
2015-01-06T14:07:42Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: I think this should be included in ASDF rather than Quicklisp. Something like :feed keyword for DEFSYSTEM.
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2015-01-06T14:08:23Z pjb: H4ns: Common Lisp allows extensions to Common Lisp, and such an extension can be allowing user-defined :test functions in hash tables, therefore Common Lisp allows such user-defined :test functions  :-)
2015-01-06T14:08:44Z pjb: But such user-defined :test functions are not conforming.
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2015-01-06T14:10:03Z Xach: Shinmera: used by 0.01% of systems
2015-01-06T14:10:46Z Hexstream: Not sure if I'm typical, but my Quicklisp ASDF version is 2.26, so I can't use :homepage and such, even though I very much would like to.
2015-01-06T14:10:49Z eudoxia: hm
2015-01-06T14:10:50Z Xach: Shinmera: i think it may take some positive gathering
2015-01-06T14:11:02Z eudoxia eudoxia is gonna do his part and add the :homepage to his projects
2015-01-06T14:11:09Z Xach: Hexstream: atypical.
2015-01-06T14:11:25Z Shinmera: Hexstream: QL should use the impls ASDF unless it is even older than 2.26, iirc.
2015-01-06T14:11:32Z mstevens: Xach: while I'm volunteering you for work, a web package explorer thing would be really cool
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2015-01-06T14:11:57Z Hexstream: Hum. (ql:update-client) and (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") are not enough to update my ASDF to 3.something, it seems.
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2015-01-06T14:12:06Z Xach: Hexstream: quicklisp does not provide asdf 3
2015-01-06T14:12:12Z Xach: Hexstream: it comes with most implementations (but not all)
2015-01-06T14:12:20Z Xach: mstevens: "package" in the CL sense?
2015-01-06T14:13:01Z Hexstream: I use SBCL, but M-x on asdf:whatever-symbol leads me to quicklisp's ASDF file which is at 2.26...
2015-01-06T14:13:22Z mstevens: Xach: hmm, like "these are the projects in quicklisp, here's what we know about them from asdf"
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2015-01-06T14:13:56Z Hexstream: Ah fuck I have "(require :asdf)" in my .sbclrc from probably 5+ years back, maybe that's related.
2015-01-06T14:14:04Z Shinmera: Hexstream: What does (asdf:asdf-version) report?
2015-01-06T14:14:14Z mstevens: Xach: basically "the elements of search.cpan that have reasonable equivalents in quicklisp"
2015-01-06T14:14:21Z Xach: mstevens: quickdocs.org does that
2015-01-06T14:14:23Z mstevens: Xach: I am totally volunteering you for loads of work, obv
2015-01-06T14:14:25Z Hexstream: Shinmera: 2.26
2015-01-06T14:14:39Z Xach: Hexstream: sbcl provides asdf 3.
2015-01-06T14:14:51Z mstevens: Xach: ooh that is pretty cool
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2015-01-06T14:15:02Z Xach: yeah, quickdocs.org is a lot of work off my shoulders
2015-01-06T14:15:06Z Hexstream: In any case, it's not getting loaded. I'll try restarting without that "(require :asdf)".
2015-01-06T14:15:06Z eudoxia: Xach: apart from quickdocs.org, it would be pretty great to have pages like quicklisp.org/library/<name> with metadata and a link to the Quickdocs org page, maybe library search too
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2015-01-06T14:15:57Z Xach: Hexstream: what version of sbcl?
2015-01-06T14:16:12Z mstevens: Xach: okay, a) I agree with eudoxia, b) very easy proposal, quicklisp.org could plug quickdocs
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2015-01-06T14:16:35Z Xach: I do plug quickdocs on quicklisp.org, but possibly not prominently enough
2015-01-06T14:17:02Z Hexstream: 1.0.58
2015-01-06T14:17:26Z mstevens: hmm, quickdocs is pretty good
2015-01-06T14:17:41Z Xach: Hexstream: that is why your asdf is old.
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2015-01-06T14:18:27Z Xach: Hexstream: newer sbcl will yield newer asdf
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2015-01-06T14:19:36Z Hexstream: That still doesn't explain why M-x of an ASDF symbol leads me to quicklisp's ASDF instead of SBCL's, but I guess upgrading SBCL isn't a bad idea anyway.
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2015-01-06T14:20:15Z Xach: quicklisp loads its own if the sbcl-provided one is older than 2.26
2015-01-06T14:20:22Z Xach: i suspect that's what's happening
2015-01-06T14:20:30Z Hexstream: (And removing that (require :asdf) in my .sbclrc gives me some cryptic error but I'll just hope that upgrading my SBCL will magically fix it.)
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2015-01-06T14:20:59Z Hexstream: Ah, makes sense.
2015-01-06T14:21:31Z Hexstream: I didn't figure that I was THAT much behind the times, but I guess I was.
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2015-01-06T14:22:37Z Hexstream: (I actually thought I was being sort of conservative by not upgrading too quickly. :/)
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2015-01-06T14:23:09Z Xach: that is conservative
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2015-01-06T14:25:26Z Hexstream: I also wonder if it wouldn't be more conservative to issue a warning if the implementation-provided ASDF is so old that Quicklisp feels compelled to load its own.
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2015-01-06T14:25:46Z Grue``: ok, maybe I'm missing something, but let's say I have a HTML tag and an arbitrrary list of its attributes (known at runtime); most html-gen libraries I checked expect a static list of attributes
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2015-01-06T14:26:23Z Hexstream: My old HTML library you can't use supported that!...
2015-01-06T14:26:30Z Grue`: the only library that could accomplish that was cl-markup but it basically has a function that runs EVAL on its own macro
2015-01-06T14:26:57Z Grue`: which is pretty ridiculous for such a simple task
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2015-01-06T14:27:35Z Xach: Hexstream: the situation at the start of Quicklisp was worse with respect to ASDF.
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2015-01-06T14:27:54Z Xach: Hexstream: it was pretty common for quicklisp to load its own ASDF.
2015-01-06T14:28:05Z Xach: It is less common now.
2015-01-06T14:28:28Z Hexstream: And it will be even less common with a nice warning. :)
2015-01-06T14:28:36Z Xach: Why?
2015-01-06T14:29:38Z Hexstream: Well, I, for one, would immediately have upgraded my SBCL upon getting that warning, since I'm so eager to use an :homepage-supporting ASDF and wasn't sure why I was stuck with an old version that doesn't support it.
2015-01-06T14:29:56Z Xach: If you got a warning, would you know what to do?
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2015-01-06T14:31:21Z Hexstream: If the warning told me that Quicklisp loaded its own version of ASDF instead of my implementation's because that one was too old, and that upgrading my implementation would likely give me access to a newer version of ASDF with more features, then I would know to upgrade my implementation...
2015-01-06T14:32:14Z Xach: Sometimes even the latest version of the implementation lacks a new ASDF.
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2015-01-06T14:32:41Z Grue`: why would you upgrade your implementation instead of just downloading the latest version of asdf?
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2015-01-06T14:33:03Z Grue`: seems like more work if that's what you want to accomplish
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2015-01-06T14:35:17Z Hexstream: Grue`: I want to avoid having a gratuitously different setup than the majority... (Because peculiar setups are more likely to have peculiar issues.)
2015-01-06T14:35:41Z Xach: sticking with a 3 year old sbcl doesn't help with that
2015-01-06T14:35:49Z Xach: since it comes out every month
2015-01-06T14:35:51Z hitecnologys: Grue`: check HCTSMSL out.
2015-01-06T14:35:59Z Hexstream: Holy shit, 3 years already? Time really flies by.
2015-01-06T14:36:05Z hitecnologys: Grue`: it does everything at runtime.
2015-01-06T14:36:36Z Hexstream: I thought I was merely like 1.5 years late.
2015-01-06T14:36:49Z hitecnologys: Grue`: which has performance penalties but allows to do what you want.
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2015-01-06T14:37:42Z adlai: 31 defclass forms in under 2k LOC... something is worrying here, although it may just be my obsession with rather irrelevant metrics
2015-01-06T14:38:20Z Hexstream: The thing is, I usually check the changelog when a new SBCL comes out, and if there aren't really any new features or bugfixes I really care about, I usually don't bother to upgrade. I guess I missed the ASDF upgrade item...
2015-01-06T14:38:22Z Xach: Hexstream: it's closer to 2.5, but 2015 - 2012 gives a nice round 3
2015-01-06T14:38:47Z Hexstream: Ok, I guess that's still pretty old. :)
2015-01-06T14:38:57Z Xach: for sbcl, anyway
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2015-01-06T14:39:15Z Hexstream: Yeah, it's old for something that ages quickly.
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2015-01-06T14:43:35Z Hexstream: An (sb-ext:release-date) wouldn't be bad.
2015-01-06T14:43:53Z Xach: i like it
2015-01-06T14:45:14Z Xach: ahh, crud
2015-01-06T14:45:57Z Hexstream: ?...
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2015-01-06T14:48:48Z Xach: I thought maybe corman lisp's loop was homegrown
2015-01-06T14:48:57Z Xach: it's a port of MIT loop, and i clobbered its license text a little
2015-01-06T14:48:58Z Xach restores
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2015-01-06T15:13:27Z Hexstream: stassats: (sb-ext:release-date). Could you make it happen? I didn't realize I had a 2.5 years old SBCL and I think such a feature could help me and others avoid unwittingly falling prey to such a situation in the future.
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2015-01-06T15:13:49Z stassats: no.
2015-01-06T15:13:55Z Hexstream: Kay.
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2015-01-06T15:14:05Z stassats: if you don't know how old your sbcl is, then you wouldn't know about sb-ext:release-date either
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2015-01-06T15:14:27Z jackdaniel: (incf *)
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2015-01-06T15:14:55Z Hexstream: Well, if (sb-ext:release-date) sees the light of day, I'm sure I'd remember it in 2.5 years.
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2015-01-06T15:19:01Z oGMo: while that seems like a terrible reason for it, you could compare the build date vs the system date and report it at startup
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2015-01-06T15:21:01Z Hexstream: The extra verbosity could be perceived by many as a downgrade.
2015-01-06T15:21:13Z oGMo: err sure
2015-01-06T15:22:06Z oGMo: really if you want to know if your SBCL is old, look at the version then go check what's current :p
2015-01-06T15:22:10Z oGMo: but, sb-ext:release-date would be useful for other things
2015-01-06T15:23:37Z Hexstream: I'm sure I would have checked how old my SBCL version was much before if it had been as simple as (sb-ext:release-date) instead of having to manually indirect through the version.
2015-01-06T15:24:33Z oGMo: it's as easy as sbcl --version
2015-01-06T15:25:03Z Hexstream: And then how do you quickly and painlessly find when that version was released?
2015-01-06T15:25:31Z Hexstream: Ok, maybe sbcl --date would be even better.
2015-01-06T15:25:33Z oGMo: why do you need to know when?
2015-01-06T15:25:42Z H4ns: Hexstream: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/releases
2015-01-06T15:26:16Z oGMo: someone could patch a huge bug last week, or do a minor cosmetic revision in 6 months .. time is not really relevant
2015-01-06T15:26:16Z jackdaniel: one crucial change may happen in one commit, it's independent of time, unless we're talking about probabilistic future feature-set
2015-01-06T15:26:20Z Hexstream: To realize sooner than later that, fuck, I'm 2.5 years late and it's time to upgrade to avoid problems.
2015-01-06T15:26:50Z jackdaniel: Hexstream: cron does a job
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2015-01-06T15:27:44Z Hexstream: jackdaniel: What do I look like, a sysadmin?
2015-01-06T15:27:44Z oGMo: also if you don't already have the sbcl source on hand and know how to find source you have, i'm not sure it's actually that important to you
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2015-01-06T15:28:31Z oGMo: an internal build date would be rather useful though for those of us compiling and comparing heh
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2015-01-06T15:29:30Z Hexstream: oGMo: I just know that I would have avoided some problems if there had been a (sb-ext:release-date).
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2015-01-06T15:31:04Z Hexstream: H4ns: I'm not even sure how to get to the SBCL github from sbcl.org. I'm trying to think from the perspective of someone with no prior knowledge in particular.
2015-01-06T15:31:29Z H4ns: Hexstream: i thought we were talking about your personal problem all the time?!
2015-01-06T15:31:33Z stassats: gosh, are you still discussing sb-ext:release-date?
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2015-01-06T15:32:23Z reb: oGMo: Maintaining an internal build date in the binary is a problem for some build systems, those that believe the binary has no dependencies other than the source, compiler, etc. it was built from.
2015-01-06T15:32:46Z Hexstream: H4ns: You need to get better at reading between the lines. I thought it was clear that my immediate problem was already solved, and that I thought maybe we should help others avoid similar situations in the future.
2015-01-06T15:33:10Z H4ns: Hexstream: ah, thank you for educating!  i'll read better between the lines now.
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2015-01-06T15:33:51Z oGMo: reb: oh sure, probably don't want to store it _in the binary_, since they're working toward (or have achieved?) build consistency or whtanot
2015-01-06T15:35:28Z stassats: oGMo: it does store the build date in the core file
2015-01-06T15:35:53Z stassats: and in the binary, so that they only work together
2015-01-06T15:36:27Z oGMo: ah true .. is it accessible in any useful form?
2015-01-06T15:37:10Z stassats: no
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2015-01-06T15:47:28Z pjb: reb: a lot of compiler generate files with time stamps.
2015-01-06T15:47:50Z pjb: You just need specific tools to compare binaries, without taking into account of them.
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2015-01-06T15:49:29Z Hexstream: H4ns: Having a hard time interpreting your last replies in a way that doesn't lead me to the conclusion that you were just being an ass. (Would you happen to be an sbcl.org maintainer? That would "explain" some of the hostility I guess.)
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2015-01-06T15:49:47Z H4ns: Hexstream: *shrug*
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2015-01-06T16:05:13Z drmeister: Hello - I've discovered a problem printing numbers that is effecting quicklisp (and will cause other problems) and I wonder if I might get some assistance.
2015-01-06T16:05:33Z drmeister: In ECL and SBCL (format nil "~(~36,6,'0R~)" 41287994) -->  "0oky0q"
2015-01-06T16:06:05Z drmeister: In Clasp:   (format nil "~(~36,6,'0R~)" 41287994) -->  "oky0q�^@"
2015-01-06T16:06:24Z drmeister: Hang on it's :   "oky0q^@"
2015-01-06T16:06:57Z drmeister: I'm guessing in the format recipe that ~36 is base 36?
2015-01-06T16:07:30Z stassats: yes
2015-01-06T16:07:44Z Krystof: and a six character field, with #\0 as (left) padding character if the output is shorter than 6 characters
2015-01-06T16:09:21Z stassats: it looks like it padded to the right with #\Null
2015-01-06T16:09:30Z drmeister: Yeah.
2015-01-06T16:10:39Z drmeister: Or it's getting taking the wrong subseq (shifted right one character) at some point.
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2015-01-06T16:10:47Z pjb: padding should be done with spaces, not nulls,
2015-01-06T16:10:52Z drmeister: Time to dig into FORMAT
2015-01-06T16:11:02Z rme: Prepare for a headache.
2015-01-06T16:11:05Z pjb: '0 means #\0
2015-01-06T16:11:12Z rme: Or maybe that's just CCL's format implementation.
2015-01-06T16:11:14Z pjb: so in this case, with a "0" character.
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2015-01-06T16:11:26Z rme: (that is headache-inducing, I mean)
2015-01-06T16:11:58Z drmeister: (format nil "~(~36,6,'0R~)" 1) -->  "000001"   - so at least I have that.
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2015-01-06T16:12:16Z foom: I still think C got the complexity/power/linenoise tradeoff just about right with its formatting language. :)
2015-01-06T16:12:35Z stassats: foom: too limiting
2015-01-06T16:12:45Z stassats: foom: what would i do without roman numerals?
2015-01-06T16:12:45Z pjb: foom: there are C-format libraries for lisp.
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2015-01-06T16:13:24Z stassats: doesn't intercal use roman numerals?
2015-01-06T16:13:28Z foom: pjb: that doesn't actually help because everyone else still uses format line noise.
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2015-01-06T16:13:36Z drmeister: foom: I implemented CORE:BFORMAT that does C-format style formatting for my bootstrapping code prior to FORMAT coming online.
2015-01-06T16:13:51Z pjb: foom: At least your own code can be nice.
2015-01-06T16:13:53Z oGMo: stassats: if not it certainly should
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2015-01-06T16:14:09Z pjb: (cl format is much better that printf IMO  :-)
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2015-01-06T16:14:37Z drmeister: Weird:   (format nil "~(~36,6,'0R~)" 1000000000000000000000)  --> "5v1j4f4ds79m9s"    Every other number I throw at it seems to work fine.
2015-01-06T16:14:38Z dlowe: it'd be better with a format-readtable
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2015-01-06T16:16:53Z splittist: drmeister: so feeding it 0 gives you six 0s?
2015-01-06T16:17:33Z drmeister: Values around 40,000,000 give it trouble.
2015-01-06T16:17:46Z drmeister: This is the kind of thing that gives me cold-sweats in the middle of the night.
2015-01-06T16:18:28Z drmeister: Yes, (format nil "~(~36,6,'0R~)" 0) --> "000000"
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2015-01-06T16:23:53Z Grue`: drmeister: are you sure "5v1j4f4ds79m9s" is not the intended result?
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2015-01-06T16:25:44Z Grue`: oh wait, I didn't read the entire chat
2015-01-06T16:25:56Z drmeister: Grue`: Yes, "5v1j4f4ds79m9s" is the intended result for that operation.  That is what I get from ECL.
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2015-01-06T16:26:28Z drmeister: No problem.
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2015-01-06T16:27:30Z drmeister: What it probably means is I'm doing some incorrect math somewhere in my C++ code (shiver)
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2015-01-06T16:29:59Z Hexstream: drmeister: Regarding FORMAT, http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/common-lisp-format-reference/clhs-summary/#subsections-summary-table might conceivably be of some help.
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2015-01-06T16:31:45Z drmeister: Hexstream: Ah, the FORMAT reference documentation that I've searched for three years to find - thank you.
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2015-01-06T16:32:14Z Hexstream: drmeister: You just gave me an orgasm!
2015-01-06T16:32:36Z splittist: Hexstream: this is great. (Now I need to do a three-dimensional version...)
2015-01-06T16:33:13Z Hexstream: splittist: Thanks!
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2015-01-06T16:35:00Z drmeister: You are welcome - normally, I charge $150 for that but for that documentation - no charge.
2015-01-06T16:35:01Z Hexstream: drmeister: By the way it only exists since 22 September 2014, so it's not just that you weren't looking hard enough or anything.
2015-01-06T16:35:37Z drmeister: Hexstream: I mean looking for it figuratively.  I've never seen that before but I wanted it laid out like that.
2015-01-06T16:36:12Z stassats: it doesn't help implementing FORMAT
2015-01-06T16:36:18Z Hexstream: Yeah, it's one of those things that I was like: "Why the FUCK doesn't this already exist??"
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2015-01-06T16:38:52Z Hexstream: stassats: Probably not. The "full reference" part of my article, which doesn't yet exist (besides https://github.com/Hexstream/common-lisp-format-reference/blob/full/format-directives/index.html) might be detailed enough to actually help with that.
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2015-01-06T16:39:35Z stassats: it can't replace the standard anyway
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2015-01-06T16:39:57Z Hexstream: stassats: You're quite the naysayer. :)
2015-01-06T16:40:15Z Hexstream: I'm not trying to replace the standard, only complement it usefully.
2015-01-06T16:40:20Z stassats: drmeister is implementing format
2015-01-06T16:41:56Z Hexstream: Sometimes you just want to quickly check some information and you don't need the full CLHS page. And he said himself that it's useful. I trust his judgment. :)
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2015-01-06T16:45:43Z foom: the yellow boxes are confusing
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2015-01-06T16:46:13Z foom: because the first and third lines seem like they might both be for colon+at-sign
2015-01-06T16:46:50Z Hexstream: foom: Well, that's what the ":@" on the right is for.
2015-01-06T16:47:05Z drmeister: There's a problem with my processing of *print-base* = 36
2015-01-06T16:47:06Z foom: yea; maybe if that was also in the : and @ boxes
2015-01-06T16:47:23Z drmeister: stassats: I haven't implemented FORMAT.   I use ecl's FORMAT code.
2015-01-06T16:47:28Z foom: might be a less subtle hint then
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2015-01-06T16:48:17Z drmeister: (defparameter a 40000000) (setq *print-base* 36) a   --> ntc74^@
2015-01-06T16:48:21Z drmeister: On clasp.
2015-01-06T16:48:43Z Hexstream: foom: I thought that was too visually charged for little benefit. A better thing would be to snap the column headers at the top of the viewport. I have yet to do that.
2015-01-06T16:49:03Z drmeister: In ECL  (defparameter a 40000000) (setq *print-base* 36) a --> NTC74
2015-01-06T16:49:16Z foom: Well, I wasn't confused about what columns were, but what the relation of the things in the yellowbox were.
2015-01-06T16:49:27Z drmeister: The extra ^@ is what is screwing things up.  Also, the case generated by clasp is wrong.
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2015-01-06T16:52:33Z Hexstream: foom: I have yet to provide a "legend" for the table. I think I've done a good job of making it self-explanatory, but I'd still like to provide one when I have the time and energy to do so.
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2015-01-06T16:55:23Z Hexstream: Also, I'd like to eventually dynamically provide tons of information when you hover over cells and arguments, which would reduce the need for a separate legend. This table is still just what I consider a "first usable version".
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2015-01-06T16:56:45Z stassats: drmeister: you can't use mpz_sizeinbase
2015-01-06T16:57:58Z drmeister: Are you looking at the clasp source?  numberToString.cc    line 63?
2015-01-06T16:58:06Z stassats: yes
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2015-01-06T16:59:16Z drmeister: What would you recommend?    Also, while that may be a problem - I don't think that code is being used - 40000000 is not a bignum.
2015-01-06T16:59:34Z drmeister: Oh - hang on - yes, it is.
2015-01-06T16:59:47Z stassats: can't recommend anything
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2015-01-06T17:00:09Z drmeister: The default for bases other than 8, 10, 16 is to convert the number to a bignum and use bignumToString.
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2015-01-06T17:00:30Z drmeister: What's wrong with mpz_sizeinbase?
2015-01-06T17:00:34Z drmeister: Investigating.
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2015-01-06T17:00:44Z stassats: your result is what's wrong with it
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2015-01-06T17:01:01Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-01-06T17:01:06Z stassats: drmeister: i guess, you can just do strlen on the result, and increment the fillpointer by that value
2015-01-06T17:01:33Z drmeister: I see - the mpz_sizeinbase docs says that it will return the size or 1+size.
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2015-01-06T17:01:58Z Hexstream: foom: In the first prototype versions of the table, I used colors extensively to group related cells like this (and more), and then when I integrated more and more SVG that replaced the various color-coding. I tried replacing the yellow with more SVG goodness but there were difficulties and I was tired...
2015-01-06T17:02:09Z drmeister: Wow, this is a tricky corner case.
2015-01-06T17:02:12Z drmeister: Hi beach.
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2015-01-06T17:03:41Z drmeister: stassats: Yes, I think using strlen could do the trick as long as the extra bytes are always \0
2015-01-06T17:03:44Z adlai: morning beach
2015-01-06T17:04:24Z stassats: drmeister: it is null terminated
2015-01-06T17:04:46Z drmeister: Then I'm in business.
2015-01-06T17:05:21Z Hexstream: beach: https://twitter.com/PaulFDietz/status/552180908078272512
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2015-01-06T17:07:59Z beach: Hexstream: Very good!  Thank you very much.
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2015-01-06T17:09:11Z Hexstream: Definitely a nice start of the year for open-source Common Lisp!
2015-01-06T17:09:26Z beach: Yes, I agree.
2015-01-06T17:09:28Z stassats: and it's all downhill from here
2015-01-06T17:09:35Z Hexstream: Better than uphill!
2015-01-06T17:10:18Z drmeister: Ok, that fixed the problem except for the case:   clasp::  (format nil "~36,6,'0R" 40000000) --> "0ntc74"
2015-01-06T17:10:32Z drmeister: ecl:: (format nil "~36,6,'0R" 40000000) --> "0NTC74"
2015-01-06T17:10:47Z drmeister: I removed the ~( ~) to see the case.
2015-01-06T17:11:58Z stassats: drmeister: negate the base
2015-01-06T17:11:58Z drmeister: Should I be looking at *print-case* for this conversion?
2015-01-06T17:12:27Z stassats: no
2015-01-06T17:12:33Z drmeister: Setting *print-case* in SBCL doesn't change the output case.
2015-01-06T17:13:08Z drmeister: Is this an implementation dependent detail or should I be checking something to determine what case to use for ~36?
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2015-01-06T17:16:58Z drmeister: I'm using mpz_get_str and with ~36 of the format directive "~36,6R" it is using lower case.
2015-01-06T17:17:09Z stassats: drmeister: negate the base
2015-01-06T17:17:22Z drmeister: I don't see anything in the CLHS that indicates what case it is supposed to generate.
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2015-01-06T17:18:13Z drmeister: Negating the base
2015-01-06T17:18:45Z drmeister: Ok - within clasp:  (format nil "~36,6R" 40000000) --> " NTC74"
2015-01-06T17:19:20Z stassats: you'll want to change %x to %X
2015-01-06T17:19:40Z drmeister: stassats: Thank you for that remote debugging.
2015-01-06T17:19:41Z drmeister: Done.
2015-01-06T17:20:00Z stassats: i'm looking at the code, so it's not that remote
2015-01-06T17:20:15Z drmeister: That probably saved me a few hours of banging my head against a wall.
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2015-01-06T17:21:12Z stassats: it was obvious from the beginning that it calculates the length of the integer wrong, and it's known that computing LOG will produces imprecise results
2015-01-06T17:21:46Z stassats: so i just searched the code print-base, found out where it's checked and what's called, and then looked up gmp manual
2015-01-06T17:21:55Z stassats: the code for print-base
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2015-01-06T17:25:39Z stassats: drmeister: faster way, decrease the fillpointer by 1 if the character at the length is NULL
2015-01-06T17:25:46Z stassats: no need to strlen the whole thing
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2015-01-06T17:29:05Z stassats: and make sure it works well with negative numbers
2015-01-06T17:29:10Z drmeister: Ah, you thought about it logically.  I should try that more often.
2015-01-06T17:29:49Z drmeister: I'm testing it.
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2015-01-06T17:41:06Z drmeister: It appears to work fine now - thanks stassats!
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2015-01-06T17:44:06Z drmeister: Xach: Are you online?   Quicklisp provides it's own ASDF - I have my own version - do you have any recommendations on how to resolve this?
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2015-01-06T17:44:59Z White_Flame: Does QL always use its own ASDF or only when there's no system-loaded ASDF?
2015-01-06T17:46:04Z Hexstream: White_Flame: My understanding is that the implementation-provided ASDF will be used unless it's older than some specific version, in which case quicklisp will load its own bundled ASDF.
2015-01-06T17:46:45Z pjb: -
2015-01-06T17:46:47Z drmeister: Well, then everything may be fine.
2015-01-06T17:47:07Z drmeister: I just saw it start loading it and then I had a crash - I thought they were related - they may not be.
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2015-01-06T17:59:15Z adlai: what is to blame if slime's context-sensitive minibuffer help isn't working?
2015-01-06T17:59:48Z stassats: the stars
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2015-01-06T18:00:11Z adlai: other parts of slime are working; just this one feature isn't
2015-01-06T18:00:16Z PuercoPop: eldoc, there was a fix a month or two ago in slime iirc, maybe you havben't updated?
2015-01-06T18:00:16Z stassats: and i spent a lot of time translating "context-sensitive minibuffer help" to "arg-list display"
2015-01-06T18:00:37Z adlai: it works except for in this one lisp image
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2015-01-06T18:09:25Z Xach: drmeister: quicklisp's is an asdf of last resort. provide 2.26 or newer and it is ignored.
2015-01-06T18:09:39Z Xach: drmeister: is yours loadable via (require 'asdf)?
2015-01-06T18:09:54Z drmeister: Xach: Yes, my asdf is loadable via (require 'asdf)
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2015-01-06T18:12:06Z drmeister: I'm running (quicklisp-quickstart:install) within lldb to trap the crash.
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2015-01-06T18:12:37Z drmeister: I'm still waiting for it to happen again.
2015-01-06T18:12:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/QhXObTws
2015-01-06T18:13:47Z drmeister: Got it - I'm having a bad NUMBER day.
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2015-01-06T18:15:55Z drmeister: NIL is not a valid argument to MAX - correct?
2015-01-06T18:16:09Z stassats: yes
2015-01-06T18:16:15Z stassats: most of the time
2015-01-06T18:16:58Z stassats: (setf *read-base* 36) (cl:max NIL T) => 30477
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2015-01-06T18:20:55Z drmeister: Hang on - why is that last expression (cl:max NIL T) valid?
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2015-01-06T18:22:08Z dlowe: hehe. NIL is read a number when *read-base* is 36.
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2015-01-06T18:24:21Z Xach: that's why ya gotta cl:max instead of max
2015-01-06T18:24:51Z foom: Or |SETF|. But wait MODERN MODE!!
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2015-01-06T18:28:20Z PuercoPop: adlai: maybe the swank:autodoc broke in that image? try something like (let ((swank::*buffer-package* cl:*package*) (swank::*buffer-readtable* cl:*readtable*)) (swank:autodoc '("+" swank::%cursor-marker%))) (or some other function instead of +)
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2015-01-06T18:35:06Z stassats: (setf *read-base* 33) (max NIL T) => 25662
2015-01-06T18:36:37Z drmeister: I see what you are doing.
2015-01-06T18:36:46Z drmeister: No problem - I've got that covered.
2015-01-06T18:37:05Z drmeister: Good old Ctrl-D  - you never fail me.
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2015-01-06T18:45:42Z drmeister: Xach: Do you have a few minutes?
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2015-01-06T18:46:18Z drmeister: I'm finding some NIL entries in a variable QL-GUNZIPPER::CODE-LENGTHS.
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2015-01-06T18:46:55Z stassats: gun zipper?
2015-01-06T18:47:58Z drmeister: Yes "ql-gunzipper".  A few arguments to make-huffman-decode-tree are NIL.
2015-01-06T18:48:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1bzwyQ57
2015-01-06T18:49:03Z drmeister: It's at the boundaries of stretches of identical values - it looks suspiciously like a nil is being appended into a list.
2015-01-06T18:49:35Z stassats: drmeister: what's (concatenate 'vector (make-sequence 'vector 144 :initial-element 8) (make-sequence 'vector 112 :initial-element 9) (make-sequence 'vector 24 :initial-element 7) (make-sequence 'vector 8 :initial-element 8))
2015-01-06T18:50:06Z Xach: drmeister: I'm afraid I don't know much about the gunzip code. It is by Pierre Mai.
2015-01-06T18:50:09Z drmeister: Yes, I see that.   Checking.
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2015-01-06T18:50:46Z stassats: or rather, what's (make-sequence 'vector 144 :initial-element 8) ?
2015-01-06T18:50:49Z drmeister: My make-sequence is broken.  The last element is always nil.
2015-01-06T18:51:09Z drmeister: (make-sequence 'vector 8 :initial-element 3)   -->   #( 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 NIL )
2015-01-06T18:51:20Z drmeister: No probs.
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2015-01-06T18:52:23Z Ainieco: hello
2015-01-06T18:52:54Z Ainieco: is it possible to use slime to find where in asdf project function was used?
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2015-01-06T18:53:29Z Xach: Ainieco: M-x slime-who-calls might help. I have trouble jumping to definitions in asdf because of its wrapping macros, though.
2015-01-06T18:53:41Z stassats: drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/2ba833a547ff99b8f5b1dd6a17161124f8cde76f/src/core/vectorObjects.cc#L189
2015-01-06T18:53:46Z stassats: or https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/2ba833a547ff99b8f5b1dd6a17161124f8cde76f/src/core/newVectorObjects.cc
2015-01-06T18:53:49Z stassats: i don't know which file
2015-01-06T18:53:49Z Xach: Do you mean "the asdf project" or "a project organized with an asdf system definition"?
2015-01-06T18:55:35Z Ainieco: Xach: thanks
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2015-01-06T18:55:53Z Ainieco: Xach: latter
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2015-01-06T18:58:47Z drmeister: What *print-XXX* variable causes arrays to be printed with ellipses?  #(3 3 ...)
2015-01-06T18:58:53Z stassats: length
2015-01-06T18:58:59Z Xach: Ainieco: ah. then M-x slime-who-calls could be pretty helpful.
2015-01-06T19:00:11Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2015-01-06T19:04:41Z stassats: drmeister: so, did you fix fillArrayWithElt?
2015-01-06T19:04:55Z drmeister: Yes
2015-01-06T19:05:04Z stassats: did you fix the assertion as well?
2015-01-06T19:06:12Z luis: Xach, Aineco: M-x slime-edit-uses is prety useful too. It's usually bound to M-? or M-_.
2015-01-06T19:07:01Z drmeister: Yes.
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2015-01-06T19:07:50Z drmeister: Does anyone know the set notation for ranges as in [0,9]  [0,9)   I forget which bracket/parenthesis means the number is part of the range and which means up to but not including.
2015-01-06T19:08:16Z stassats: ] is inclusive, ) is exclusive
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2015-01-06T19:16:10Z dim: american [0,9) is written [0,9[ in french, if that helps
2015-01-06T19:16:40Z stassats: it's not really american
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2015-01-06T19:17:55Z dim: mmmm, 'k, I will admit I just don't know about that
2015-01-06T19:18:35Z dim: USA people in the PostgreSQL community where very vocal about the [) syntax, that's my basis for the previous statement... a tad light
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2015-01-06T19:25:46Z pjb: Obviously, (1 2) is inclusive.
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2015-01-06T19:26:01Z pjb: drmeister: better adopt the better french notation: [0,10[
2015-01-06T19:26:38Z pjb: drmeister: by definition you can take that USians do it all wrong: imperial units, [0,9) notation, whatever.
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2015-01-06T19:28:24Z drmeister: pjb: Agreed,  it was with great sadness that I gave up the metric system when I became a US citizen this summer.   But I took the oath to "abjure all allegiance and fidelity to foreign rulers".
2015-01-06T19:28:29Z stassats: (1 2) is exclusive, and it's not unique to the US
2015-01-06T19:29:19Z Grue`: i thought math notation for intervals is universal
2015-01-06T19:29:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^
2015-01-06T19:30:05Z Grue`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_%28mathematics%29#Including_or_excluding_endpoints
2015-01-06T19:30:08Z drmeister: Xach: I'm still getting "Sorry, quicklisp in implementation "Clasp" is not supported yet."  Is there more code that I need to specialize for clasp besides quicklisp.lisp?
2015-01-06T19:30:10Z stassats: ]1,2[ isn't any better or worse, it's quite unlike the metric vs imperial
2015-01-06T19:30:31Z drmeister: Here's a dump of what I'm seeing with a backtrace.
2015-01-06T19:30:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/WkF9Abor
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2015-01-06T19:34:42Z Xach: drmeister: well, yeah.
2015-01-06T19:34:51Z Xach: drmeister: quicklisp.lisp is the bootstrap file, the installer.
2015-01-06T19:35:09Z Xach: drmeister: after that it loads the client, which has much of the same code
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2015-01-06T19:36:01Z Xach: but more
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2015-01-06T19:36:15Z drmeister: Should I clone https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client  and just have at it?
2015-01-06T19:36:42Z Xach: drmeister: yeah.
2015-01-06T19:36:48Z drmeister: Righto.
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2015-01-06T19:38:10Z drmeister: Is there a way to run my local copy of quicklisp - or do I need to submit my changes and then run quicklisp.lisp to download them again?
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2015-01-06T19:38:49Z Xach: drmeister: that's a good question. my intent was that you should be able to load your local customizations after loading quicklisp and have everything just work.
2015-01-06T19:39:01Z Xach: drmeister: that is, there *should* be no load-time checks of compatibility
2015-01-06T19:39:08Z drmeister: Does your intent match reality?   Mine rarely do.
2015-01-06T19:39:25Z Xach: drmeister: I don't know. I haven't often had the opportunity to test them against new CL implementations.
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2015-01-06T19:40:59Z drmeister: Well, that seems to be all that I ever do - so lets see how it goes.  Would I just (load "quicklisp/setup.lisp") to load the local version?
2015-01-06T19:41:00Z Xach: drmeister: what happened was i implemented all the initial implementations, and only mkcl support has been added since then.
2015-01-06T19:41:05Z Xach: drmeister: yes.
2015-01-06T19:41:20Z drmeister: Ok, I'll tell you how it goes.
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2015-01-06T19:49:27Z stassats: MORE NEW IMPLEMENTATIONS
2015-01-06T19:49:52Z francogrex: the new one is out already?
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2015-01-06T19:51:19Z Xach can't wait for the patches for corman lisp support too
2015-01-06T19:51:54Z ehu: Xach: corman is out and public now?
2015-01-06T19:52:08Z ehu searched github but couldn't find it yet
2015-01-06T19:52:18Z rme: https://github.com/sharplispers/cormanlisp
2015-01-06T19:52:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: Can someone give me an explanation for how common lisp is as fast as it is, or why Ruby and Python programs tend to be faster when rewritten?
2015-01-06T19:52:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: rewritten into common lisp*
2015-01-06T19:52:42Z ehu: ah. right. published 5 hours ago?
2015-01-06T19:52:51Z stassats: Petit_Dejeuner: python and ruby implementations are just that slow
2015-01-06T19:52:54Z Xach: ehu: yesterday
2015-01-06T19:53:21Z Xach: ehu: it was in all the papers...planet lisp, twitter, hacker news, reddit, all of 'em!!
2015-01-06T19:53:23Z hitecnologys: Petit_Dejeuner: because Python and Ruby use VMs.
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2015-01-06T19:53:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: So CLISP should be about the same as Python and Ruby?
2015-01-06T19:54:05Z hitecnologys: Petit_Dejeuner: well, most commonly used implementations.
2015-01-06T19:54:29Z hitecnologys: Petit_Dejeuner: not necessarily. I don't know how CLisp works but I've heard that it supports JIT.
2015-01-06T19:55:20Z White_Flame: most CLs also support real OS threading
2015-01-06T19:55:40Z dim: Petit_Dejeuner: my wrong statement is that Lisp is 60 years old, it took the 80s and 90s to get it right (CL standard and whatnot), and the whole of 90s and 2000s were spent on optimizing its implementations, and it's 2015 already you see?
2015-01-06T19:56:21Z White_Flame: Petit_Dejeuner: also, the disassembler is great for understanding why Lisp is fast
2015-01-06T19:56:42Z ehu: Xach: I bought a version back in the day.
2015-01-06T19:56:52Z ehu: Xach: which is why I have a special interest.
2015-01-06T19:57:14Z ehu: however, I was disappointed by the windowing support (which was close none-existent)
2015-01-06T19:57:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: dim, Yeah, but most scripting/dynamic non-lisp languages could use similar optimizations in the implementation, right? It's not like any of that is lisp specific.
2015-01-06T19:57:38Z Xach: ehu: I think I saw your name in some file or another
2015-01-06T19:57:38Z stassats: they don't want to/don't know how to
2015-01-06T19:57:41Z dim: well then I don't know
2015-01-06T19:57:49Z stassats:  /are afraid it'll be too slow
2015-01-06T19:57:51Z dim: python is just awfully slow, impressively so
2015-01-06T19:58:01Z Xach: ehu: ah yes, in Sys/sockets.lisp
2015-01-06T19:58:07Z White_Flame: what's Corman's generated code performance, roughly in comparison to SBCL?
2015-01-06T19:58:07Z ehu: Xach: yea. I submitted patches, but heard nothing about them, so, I didn't know if/what happened.
2015-01-06T19:58:09Z ehu: ah!
2015-01-06T19:58:12Z dim: the JVM platform is pretty good I've heard, and C# too, if you want to compare CL to something relevant maybe
2015-01-06T19:58:13Z ehu: usocket contributions :-)
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2015-01-06T19:58:30Z ehu: There should also be patches from me relating to text file parsing.
2015-01-06T19:58:43Z ehu: it used to be 200% slower than SBCL.
2015-01-06T19:58:54Z dim: Xach: I'd like to test pgloader on Corman someday, might be interesting to have a "small" 32-bits binary image of it for windows users
2015-01-06T19:59:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: White_Flame, Just very effecient assembly code? I've looked at the assembly with SLIME, but I can't really read it.
2015-01-06T19:59:00Z ehu: At the time I was working on a project where that was noticable.
2015-01-06T19:59:03Z White_Flame: dim:  yeah, I've been reading about Java & JavaScript compilation techniques, and those "traditionally slow" languages are blazing along today
2015-01-06T19:59:14Z ehu: so, I submitted patches to get it within the 30% range.
2015-01-06T19:59:15Z Xach: dim: I wish I could build or run it!
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2015-01-06T19:59:24Z Xach looks into a windows vm
2015-01-06T19:59:27Z dim: pgloader you mean, or corman?
2015-01-06T19:59:31Z Xach: corman
2015-01-06T19:59:31Z dim: corman I guess
2015-01-06T19:59:32Z dim: yeah
2015-01-06T19:59:32Z White_Flame: Petit_Dejeuner: yeah, basically a lot of operations end up as machine code instead of as generic function utility calls
2015-01-06T19:59:34Z stassats: Petit_Dejeuner: the assembly output is just the result of the a good compiler, it doesn't tell you why it is so good
2015-01-06T19:59:43Z dim: well I won't, I do have a windows VM for building pgloader on it
2015-01-06T19:59:52Z stassats: or bad
2015-01-06T19:59:55Z dim: but nothing like VC Studio and no experience whatsoever
2015-01-06T20:00:01Z ehu: Xach: what triggered you to send the original mail in 2013?
2015-01-06T20:00:07Z ehu: QL support?
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2015-01-06T20:01:16Z Xach: ehu: No, just didn't want to see it disappear entirely. It seemed like a long time with no news.
2015-01-06T20:01:39Z Xach: I wanted to know if anything would happen in the future or if it was done.
2015-01-06T20:01:56Z ehu: agreed. I loved the compiler in the product, actually.
2015-01-06T20:01:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: White_Flame, So, something like (incf x) would be compiled into a single instruction?
2015-01-06T20:02:15Z ehu: the resulting code was fast enough.
2015-01-06T20:02:38Z Xach: I wonder if any other lisp implemented its inline assembly in a similar way.
2015-01-06T20:02:39Z ehu: seems like a whole lot needs to happen to get it into the "current age" though.
2015-01-06T20:02:41Z stassats: Petit_Dejeuner: no
2015-01-06T20:02:49Z Xach: I was surprised to see non-sexp assembly code
2015-01-06T20:03:05Z stassats: Petit_Dejeuner: only in some specific cases
2015-01-06T20:03:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: stassats, alright, but it wouldn't become something ridiculous like a function call to (1+ n) and then a function call to (+ n 1) etc. ?
2015-01-06T20:03:32Z stassats: it would, most of the time
2015-01-06T20:03:43Z White_Flame: Petit_Dejeuner: if analysis knew the constraints of that value, that it was a fixnum, and that incrementing it wouldn't overflow into a bignum, it can inline it
2015-01-06T20:04:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: stassats, so (incf x) -> (setf x (1+ x)) and #'1+ would call #'+?
2015-01-06T20:05:12Z stassats: most of the time
2015-01-06T20:05:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: White_Flame, And it's possible for analysis to tell that's happening?
2015-01-06T20:05:41Z White_Flame: your declarations, and automatic type inference, can determine a lot of info like that
2015-01-06T20:05:46Z stassats: it doesn't have to be 1+ x, it can directly call two-arg-+ with 1 as one argument
2015-01-06T20:05:59Z stassats: but it's still a slow generic operator
2015-01-06T20:06:12Z White_Flame: often, shortcut functions are expanded into their general form, then the optimizations look at the general form
2015-01-06T20:06:44Z White_Flame: so (1+ x) could be expanded to (+ x 1), then optimization realizes the range of x and what's being added to it, all in the optimizations for #'+
2015-01-06T20:07:04Z drmeister: Xach: quicklisp loaded with (load "/Users/meister/Development/quicklisp-client/setup.lisp")   what should I do now?
2015-01-06T20:07:16Z Xach: drmeister: (ql:quickload "alexandria")
2015-01-06T20:07:17Z drmeister grins
2015-01-06T20:07:29Z stassats: Petit_Dejeuner: so, it's not particularly fast, just faster than pythons and rubys
2015-01-06T20:07:42Z drmeister: Segmentation fault: 11
2015-01-06T20:07:45Z drmeister: Hang on.
2015-01-06T20:07:54Z drmeister: I was doing so well too.
2015-01-06T20:08:05Z White_Flame: Petit_Dejeuner:  if you want the fastest code, you basically have to declare all types and manually assure non-overflows
2015-01-06T20:08:45Z jasom: White_Flame: not true; if you end all operations with a modulo (or equivalent via bit manipulations) of the word-size you get good arithmetic until you have a non-inlined function call
2015-01-06T20:09:13Z White_Flame: I don't just mean numeric types, but also class/struct/list/array/etc types
2015-01-06T20:09:49Z White_Flame: and things like declaring something as a cons vs a list will shave off a NIL check
2015-01-06T20:10:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm not really a speed demon. I was just looking at several similar implementations to a spell checker and wondering why the Common Lisp solution is so fast.
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2015-01-06T20:10:32Z White_Flame: It's basically JIT vs interpreted for the most part
2015-01-06T20:10:42Z stassats: White_Flame: will it?
2015-01-06T20:11:01Z stassats: because in sbcl declaring something as a cons will add a NIL check
2015-01-06T20:11:04Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: just compiling to native code gets you a big win versus interpreted, (and a big win versus JIT if your warm-up time is greater than your run time)
2015-01-06T20:11:04Z White_Flame: s/will/can/
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2015-01-06T20:11:43Z stassats: and SBCL has no JIT
2015-01-06T20:12:05Z White_Flame: (for various definitions of "T")
2015-01-06T20:12:24Z stassats: for any value
2015-01-06T20:12:26Z jasom: White_Flame: for pretty much any definition, SBCL is AoT
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2015-01-06T20:12:34Z stassats: and so is CCL
2015-01-06T20:13:55Z jasom: SBCL does do some dynamic compilation for method invocation
2015-01-06T20:14:37Z jasom still wouldn't call that JIT though
2015-01-06T20:15:26Z jasom: White_Flame: I think the term you're looking for is "incremantal compilation"
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2015-01-06T20:15:55Z White_Flame: runtime defun is technically JIT
2015-01-06T20:16:04Z White_Flame: JIT doesn't imply warm-up and coexistence with interpreted versions
2015-01-06T20:16:06Z francogrex: it would be good to try to tweak corman to ru on linux
2015-01-06T20:16:09Z jasom: White_Flame: no it's not, it's incremental compilation
2015-01-06T20:16:25Z White_Flame: yes, it is incremental compilation
2015-01-06T20:16:27Z francogrex: it had good assembly routines
2015-01-06T20:16:44Z White_Flame: that also doesn't mean it's not JIT ;)
2015-01-06T20:17:42Z jasom wouldn't call WATFOR a JIT for example
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2015-01-06T20:18:30Z francogrex: though it seems like if you take corman outta windows, it's no longer 'corman' but just bits and pieces of lisp codes
2015-01-06T20:18:35Z drmeister: Xach: There is a quicklisp-client/quicklisp/quicklisp.asd - Can I use that to load quicklisp as an ASDF system?
2015-01-06T20:19:22Z francogrex: it's a major event though. Chestnut is hopefully the next to go open source
2015-01-06T20:19:25Z Xach: drmeister: no.
2015-01-06T20:19:29Z drmeister: If so, I will bypass quicklisp-client/setup.lisp but I notice that there is a file: quicklisp-client/quicklisp/setup.lisp.     Brain... thinking.. thing... hurts
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2015-01-06T20:19:40Z Xach: drmeister: quicklisp-client/setup.lisp is the way to load it.
2015-01-06T20:19:45Z drmeister: Got it.
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2015-01-06T20:21:57Z francogrex:  Ada 1.2%
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2015-01-06T20:22:37Z Vutral: hm
2015-01-06T20:22:50Z Vutral: someone knows if it is difficult to provide network access to a lisp instance?
2015-01-06T20:23:01Z Xach: Vutral: no.
2015-01-06T20:23:22Z Xach: Vutral: you can even provide snmp access, if you like. a nice fellow wrote an SNMP server with lots of oids for lisp stats.
2015-01-06T20:24:04Z Vutral: well i thought about evaluating lisp code
2015-01-06T20:24:10Z Vutral: thought some stuff usually runs at the compile tiem
2015-01-06T20:25:30Z Vutral: a snmp server, well i more tended to consider interacting with a lisp instance from net-snmp and so
2015-01-06T20:25:50Z Vutral: a bit like lush or so
2015-01-06T20:26:09Z Vutral: maybe my way of thinking is influenced by emacs a bit
2015-01-06T20:26:18Z dim: Vutral: IIUC the swank protocol used by slime is a way to do RPC already, but then there's also lfarm
2015-01-06T20:26:27Z dim: see https://github.com/lmj/lfarm
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2015-01-06T20:28:21Z White_Flame: Vutral: I can vouch that it's not difficult, from multiple implementations
2015-01-06T20:28:32Z White_Flame: (of course, your definition of "provide network access" may vary)
2015-01-06T20:32:57Z rme: H4ns: I just received a couple of Teensy units for Symbolics keyboard hacking.  I'm going to Boston for a few days tomorrow, so I probably won't be able to try anything until the weekend, though.
2015-01-06T20:33:25Z rme: Oops, that should have been private.
2015-01-06T20:33:52Z rme: My secret is out.
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2015-01-06T20:34:21Z Vutral: White_Flame, well evalulation and compilation is the tricky thing :x
2015-01-06T20:34:52Z Vutral: laziest variant might be just putting lisp in inetd or so
2015-01-06T20:34:57Z White_Flame: (eval expression)
2015-01-06T20:34:59Z White_Flame: not too tricky
2015-01-06T20:35:06Z Vutral: yes
2015-01-06T20:35:35Z White_Flame: depending on what you need, SLIME may be what you want
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2015-01-06T20:35:44Z White_Flame: though a raw telnet REPL isn't hard to set up
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2015-01-06T20:36:14Z Xach: telnet is pretty complicated! but raw is not so complicated.
2015-01-06T20:36:18Z Vutral: lol
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2015-01-06T20:36:33Z White_Flame: heh, yeha
2015-01-06T20:36:35Z White_Flame: yeah
2015-01-06T20:36:39Z Vutral: complicated-long-lisp-expressions-from-hyperspec-
2015-01-06T20:36:53Z White_Flame: SLIME gives you autocompletion
2015-01-06T20:37:04Z Vutral: sure
2015-01-06T20:37:05Z White_Flame: well, tab-completion
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2015-01-06T20:37:41Z Vutral: lfarm looks really intresting
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2015-01-06T20:38:40Z Vutral: if i load that into emacs i could dominate the world i guess
2015-01-06T20:38:41Z Vutral: lol
2015-01-06T20:40:37Z Vutral: eh well at least i guess its fun to have a shared lisp core
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2015-01-06T21:59:39Z TDT: Kinda general question/opinion.  For coding (general, multiple languages), what do you use for storing code snippets?
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2015-01-06T22:03:29Z Xach: TDT: files?
2015-01-06T22:03:41Z Xach: TDT: i'm not sure I understand the question. What kind of snippets?
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2015-01-06T22:05:38Z pjb: TDT: I have a file named ~/notes.txt in org-mode.
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2015-01-06T22:09:33Z TDT: I think pjb's idea may be the simplestt.  Basically, after a lot of research, I found some code that work for a task I'm dealing with, but searching for old solutions and bits of code that saved me has been hard.  Generally, I just regoogle it and hope I find what i need...this particular solution is..well, hard to google for, so I want to cache it locally.
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2015-01-06T22:10:22Z TDT: org-mode may be the best solution.  I still use org-mode, just the basics though...maybe there's some kinda syntax highlighting now.
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2015-01-06T22:10:47Z Xach: TDT: oh. i use pinboard for that sometimes.
2015-01-06T22:11:37Z Shinmera: I just put things on my paste thing, or make a full project out of it, depending on size.
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2015-01-06T22:11:53Z Shinmera: (the paste thing being http://plaster.tymoon.eu/user/shinmera )
2015-01-06T22:11:57Z TDT: Pinboard is really nice, I seriously should learn to tag stuff there.  I have a lot of stuff I save, but strangely don't go there to reread things much.
2015-01-06T22:12:32Z TDT: Shinmera: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'paste thing'? Do you mean something like gist.github?
2015-01-06T22:12:42Z Shinmera: What I linked is what I mean
2015-01-06T22:12:59Z Shinmera: Which is pretty much the same as gists, yes.
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2015-01-06T22:14:02Z Shinmera: It gets unwieldy if you don't title it well, of course. A tagging system might be nice for that.
2015-01-06T22:14:08Z Shinmera makes a todo for that
2015-01-06T22:14:19Z TDT: ah sorry missed that link
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2015-01-06T22:15:21Z PuercoPop: TDT: use org-babel if you plan using  org-mode
2015-01-06T22:16:05Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: is this all written in CL?
2015-01-06T22:16:09Z akkad: now if only org-mode could be outsourced to CL
2015-01-06T22:16:21Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: https://github.com/Shirakumo/plaster eat your heart out
2015-01-06T22:16:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: thanks.
2015-01-06T22:17:02Z Shinmera: Plaster is my oldest Radiance module and I should clean it up to reflect newest practises.
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2015-01-06T22:20:29Z Shinmera just noticed there was a spam post on there
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2015-01-06T22:23:05Z jilllllllll: can't figure out how to get a float formatted the way I want
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2015-01-06T22:23:49Z TDT: PuercoPop: Thanks, I think I will be using org-mode, since I have most experience with that and will look into using org-babel
2015-01-06T22:23:51Z jilllllllll: looking for 2 digits before, 3 digits after the decimal, and leading zeros to fill out the left of the decimal
2015-01-06T22:24:05Z jilllllllll: aka a second.millisecond readout
2015-01-06T22:24:44Z pjb: (format nil "~6,2,,,'0F" 1.2)
2015-01-06T22:24:53Z pjb: works only for positive numbers.
2015-01-06T22:25:17Z pjb: Sorry, you want (format nil "~6,3,,,'0F" 1.2) --> "01.200"
2015-01-06T22:25:48Z jilllllllll: I've tried a few things that don't work, but I'm trying things like
2015-01-06T22:25:51Z White_Flame: all the float output specs: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cc.htm
2015-01-06T22:26:10Z jilllllllll: :pjb so I guess the apostrophe ends the parameters, and is uses to specify a charater for the padding?
2015-01-06T22:26:22Z pjb: No it doesn't end the parameters.
2015-01-06T22:26:32Z Bicyclidine: the apostrophe is a quote to make the 0 a character rather than a number. it's just a normal parameter.
2015-01-06T22:26:37Z pjb: It specifies a character for the padding, since this parameter should be that.
2015-01-06T22:26:45Z jilllllllll: oh.
2015-01-06T22:27:34Z jilllllllll: I see now, my errors prior were that i wasn't recognizing to pass the 0 as a character with the quote
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2015-01-06T22:27:49Z jilllllllll: doing (format nil "~6,3,,,0F" 1.2)
2015-01-06T22:27:58Z Bicyclidine: yeah, no good.
2015-01-06T22:28:05Z jilllllllll: thanks all
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2015-01-06T22:28:19Z pjb: It's a little strange a syntax, I must admit. But you could have a V here:  (format nil "~6,3,,,VF" #\0 1.2) --> "01.200"
2015-01-06T22:28:20Z Bicyclidine: what's that do, anyway? type error?
2015-01-06T22:28:35Z pjb: (format nil "~6,3,,,'VF" 1.2) --> "V1.200"
2015-01-06T22:28:40Z pjb: Yes.
2015-01-06T22:28:46Z Bicyclidine: i see.
2015-01-06T22:29:06Z pjb: But that type error would depend on the format specifier.  Notably, if you use ~/, it would depend on your function.
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2015-01-06T22:38:19Z drmeister: Clasps (make-array 16 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) returns an object of type (simple-vector 16). Is that wrong?
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2015-01-06T22:39:39Z drmeister: Quick lisp doesn't like it. It expects something like a (simple-array unsigned-byte (16))
2015-01-06T22:40:03Z Bicyclidine: I think it's ok. What quicklisp code does that?
2015-01-06T22:40:36Z Xach: drmeister: you don't have specialized (unsigned-byte 8) arrays?
2015-01-06T22:40:56Z Krystof: it's not strictly speaking wrong for an implementation to do that, but there are probably plenty of assumptions out there that specialized byte arrays exist
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2015-01-06T22:41:21Z Xach: Right. It's one of those things where it's de facto standard.
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2015-01-06T22:42:09Z Bicyclidine: i'm just curious what quicklisp could be doing to violate it, i mean, (the (simple-array unsigned-byte) ...) and stuff should still work.
2015-01-06T22:42:26Z Xach: Bicyclidine: possibly for reading/writing network streams
2015-01-06T22:42:33Z Xach: I can't remember the context
2015-01-06T22:44:16Z pjb: drmeister: it is conforming, if (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) --> T
2015-01-06T22:44:45Z Krystof: being able to open a stream with element-type (unsigned-byte 8) and to read-sequence into a vector of (unsigned-byte 8) is often helpful when dealing with binary formats
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2015-01-06T22:45:46Z pjb: that doesn't impose that (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) be different from T.
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2015-01-06T22:49:47Z drmeister: Xach: not yet. I've been meaning to get around to it.
2015-01-06T22:49:59Z Xach: Now you have a great excuse!
2015-01-06T22:50:22Z Xach: drmeister: do the arguments to your code-char correspond to unicode code points?
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2015-01-06T22:54:17Z drmeister: I'm not sure what you mean. I don't support Unicode yet either. Think early 90's common lisp.
2015-01-06T22:54:41Z drmeister: Or whenever pre-Unicode
2015-01-06T22:56:06Z drmeister: Will that be a problem with quick lisp?
2015-01-06T22:56:06Z Bicyclidine: whether (code-char unicode-code-point) => unicode-character-corresponding-to-code-point
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2015-01-06T22:57:01Z Xach: drmeister: right. does (code-char #x3bb) return a greek small letter lamda (sic)
2015-01-06T22:57:10Z Xach: drmeister: Not yet
2015-01-06T22:57:23Z drmeister: It will not
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2015-01-06T22:57:42Z drmeister: Return a Greek letter
2015-01-06T22:59:20Z drmeister: So, specialized arrays are now a priority. Hmmmm
2015-01-06T23:00:22Z drmeister: I always planned to use template programming to enable a wide variety of specialized arrays.
2015-01-06T23:01:22Z dim: why do you code so much of clasp in C++, if I may ask?
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2015-01-06T23:01:55Z pjb: to be compatible with C++ libraries.
2015-01-06T23:01:58Z drmeister: Bootstrapping requires it.
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2015-01-06T23:03:25Z dim: bootstrapping, ok, I would have naively though that implementing only the special operators of the standard would allow bootstrapping... plus maybe GC... and now it shows I never though about it for real
2015-01-06T23:04:17Z drmeister: Perhaps some hyper intelligent being of the future (hi beach) can figure out the minimum of common lisp required to bootstrap CL. I used ecl for guidance.
2015-01-06T23:04:53Z Hexstream: I always thought the 25 special operators were the "canonical" set for bootstrapping...
2015-01-06T23:05:28Z Hexstream: (Well, probably with a few functions and stuff.)
2015-01-06T23:06:31Z Hexstream: (And a few classes, and, and, and...)
2015-01-06T23:07:03Z pjb: drmeister: the minimum needed to bootstrap CL is lambda, or cmov as you wish.
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2015-01-06T23:13:04Z Xach: I am reminded once again of the "blue pages" idea from the 80s
2015-01-06T23:13:19Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html
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2015-01-06T23:15:13Z dim: pjb: can you implement memory allocation and freeing in terms of lambda?
2015-01-06T23:17:16Z drmeister: "Bring me the blue pages"
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2015-01-06T23:19:17Z drmeister: ECL and Clasp implement about a third of Common Lisp in C/C++ respectively.
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2015-01-06T23:20:04Z drmeister: pjb: You need a lot more than that.  You need a reader, memory manager - a lot of stuff.
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2015-01-06T23:22:57Z drmeister: I'm not arguing though - you may be right - I'm drawing from my experience.
2015-01-06T23:23:00Z Shinmera: lambda_calculus.txt
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2015-01-06T23:23:19Z lispm: I wonder if Corman Lisp is still sold commercially
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2015-01-06T23:23:34Z drmeister: What is cmlv?
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2015-01-06T23:23:41Z drmeister: cmov?
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2015-01-06T23:24:53Z White_Flame: lispm: in the open sourcing announcement, Corman said he didn't get significant income from it, so I'd construe that as "yes, a bit"
2015-01-06T23:25:09Z White_Flame: going forward, no clue
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2015-01-06T23:42:52Z drmeister: I'm still using ecl's UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE which doesn't promote everything to T.   When I override it with (defun UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE (x) T)   everything seems to work.
2015-01-06T23:43:17Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/68c5b4e2b83b191153fc
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2015-01-06T23:45:27Z drmeister: The alexandria package comes up as #:ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV  - Why is that?
2015-01-06T23:45:47Z |3b|: just the way the defined it
2015-01-06T23:45:52Z |3b|: *they
2015-01-06T23:46:09Z drmeister: The mysterious *they*.
2015-01-06T23:46:23Z drmeister: Got it.   I was worried it was something that I did.
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2015-01-06T23:46:28Z White_Flame: it's a clasp-specific logic bomb that "they" planted
2015-01-06T23:46:38Z |3b|: check the source history if you want more specific than 'they' :p
2015-01-06T23:46:51Z drmeister: Well then, I have incorporated the Common Lisp triumvirate (ASDF, SLIME, Quicklisp) into Clasp.
2015-01-06T23:46:58Z |3b|: (or possibly mailing lists/irc logs for reasons)
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2015-01-06T23:47:11Z White_Flame: congrats!
2015-01-06T23:47:34Z ew2rr: hi :) can i somehow limit the set of values a slot can have?
2015-01-06T23:48:06Z ew2rr: i want a certain slot to have only one of three possible keywords as value
2015-01-06T23:48:43Z drmeister: ew2rr: Yes, :type   - I dunno about three possible keywords  (or :x :y :z)?
2015-01-06T23:48:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9V7JBykO
2015-01-06T23:50:08Z Hexstream: (member :x :y :z)
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2015-01-06T23:53:58Z ew2rr: thanks Hexstream, exactly what i wanted
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