2015-01-04T00:00:47Z Xach: cl-ppcre is generally very good code. if you find yourself thinking something has to be a mistake, it probably is a misunderstanding.
2015-01-04T00:00:56Z Xach: and you can skip over it until later.
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2015-01-04T00:01:45Z rurumate: thanks for explanations guys. Sorry if I'm being persistent, I'm a bit drunk and will rest now.
2015-01-04T00:01:58Z Shinmera: Reading code drunk is not the best idea.
2015-01-04T00:02:03Z Xach: remember: if you learn while drunk, you have to get drunk again to apply what you learned
2015-01-04T00:02:06Z Shinmera: Have a good one!
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2015-01-04T00:41:03Z akkad ponders how ACL compares with LW since they have like 45 people vs like 2
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2015-01-04T00:44:32Z nikki93: hey guys so I have a macro b that calls a macro a like (defmacro b (name...) (let ... `( ... (a (defun ,name (...) (foo ,name
2015-01-04T00:44:43Z nikki93: and the macro a takes name and does a (defvar ,name inside it
2015-01-04T00:44:57Z nikki93: so I need to use the variable ,name in b after a has defvar'd it
2015-01-04T00:45:38Z nikki93: I tried doing (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defvar ,name ... inside a but b code still gives an undefined variable error
2015-01-04T00:45:52Z nyef: nikki93: lisppaste?
2015-01-04T00:47:33Z nikki93: nyef: so here's the macro 'a' that uses 'b': https://github.com/nikki93/lgame/blob/master/entity-system.lisp#L47
2015-01-04T00:47:33Z nikki93: nyef: and here's the macro 'b': https://github.com/nikki93/lgame/blob/master/system.lisp#L19
2015-01-04T00:48:01Z nikki93: as you can see, b passes class-name to a and a does a defvar by that name, and b defun's a function that refers to a variable by that name
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2015-01-04T00:49:00Z nyef: IIRC, LET destroys toplevelness.
2015-01-04T00:49:11Z nikki93: oh you're right
2015-01-04T00:50:05Z nyef: Why do you even need cell-class-var?
2015-01-04T00:51:15Z nikki93: nyef: there's definitely a better way to do this but -- basically I define another side class which is used by this one, and a slot in the main class keeps track of which side class is being used
2015-01-04T00:51:54Z nyef: ... And the side class varies at runtime?
2015-01-04T00:51:55Z nikki93: nyef: so I do a (let ((,other-class (..side class definition..) and then use ,other-class in the initform
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2015-01-04T00:52:57Z nikki93: no it doesn't, which is why I think I should do this some other way
2015-01-04T00:53:10Z nyef: Good. You're on the right track there.
2015-01-04T00:53:17Z nikki93: hehe
2015-01-04T00:53:36Z nikki93: i know this looks like some crazy hacks but I promise it makes life sorta easier
2015-01-04T00:54:07Z nikki93: what do you think is a good way to store the class -> side-class mapping then
2015-01-04T00:54:47Z nikki93: I could use the symbol-plist I guess
2015-01-04T00:55:03Z nyef: Augh! An hour ago, I knew what I was doing. Then dinner was ready, and I left off before actually naming the next test case. And now I have no idea what it was going to be.
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2015-01-04T00:56:48Z nyef: So, you have a class, and you have a "side-class". Is there any particular relation between the two in terms of names?
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2015-01-04T00:57:43Z nikki93: nope the name can be defined by the user for both cases
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2015-01-04T00:58:03Z nikki93: basically it looks like (defbigclass bla () (defsideclass bleh ...) (...))
2015-01-04T00:58:17Z nikki93: so a defbigclass is just a defclass with an additional side class definition between the superclass list and slot list
2015-01-04T00:58:22Z nyef: So, it's some odd form of nesting?
2015-01-04T00:58:32Z nikki93: yeah basically
2015-01-04T00:58:46Z ejbs: nikki93: Have you checked out CEPL? (just seeing that you're coding a game)
2015-01-04T00:58:56Z nikki93: ejbs: yup I have! :D
2015-01-04T00:59:00Z nikki93: ejbs: are you the guy that made it?
2015-01-04T00:59:26Z ejbs: nikki93: Hehe, no :) I wish!
2015-01-04T00:59:30Z nyef: So, the sideclass definition is always the third sub-form in the big-class definition?
2015-01-04T00:59:37Z nikki93: ya
2015-01-04T00:59:49Z ejbs: nikki93: Hey, where's the code for loading texture atlas's?
2015-01-04T00:59:53Z nikki93: nyef: what I'm thinking now is to keep side-class in there the way I did, then set a symbol plist thing
2015-01-04T01:00:05Z nyef shakes his head.
2015-01-04T01:00:06Z nikki93: ejbs: check sprite.lisp and gfx.lisp
2015-01-04T01:00:10Z nyef: What's the side-class for?
2015-01-04T01:00:12Z ejbs: thanks
2015-01-04T01:00:33Z nyef: (How is it used/instantiated?)
2015-01-04T01:01:13Z nikki93: nyef: the big class stores a hash table of ids to instances of teh side class and manages them (it is a subclass of a class that manages this)
2015-01-04T01:01:30Z nikki93: nyef: but the subclass can override this management
2015-01-04T01:01:43Z nikki93: nyef: also you can define methods on the side-class or bigclass to define ur own functionality
2015-01-04T01:02:29Z nikki93: nyef: here's an example usage: https://github.com/nikki93/lgame/blob/master/test.lisp#L7
2015-01-04T01:03:08Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-01-04T01:03:33Z nikki93: nyef: yeah the side class and main class often have similar names
2015-01-04T01:04:39Z nyef: But the main class is always associated with the same side class?
2015-01-04T01:04:45Z nikki93: yeah but the thing is
2015-01-04T01:04:52Z nikki93: there is only one instance of the main class ever
2015-01-04T01:05:00Z nikki93: so I didn't mind putting it in a slot
2015-01-04T01:05:00Z nyef: Ah, a singleton?
2015-01-04T01:05:05Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-01-04T01:05:13Z nikki93: just made life way easier cuz the base class can just ask it for its side class
2015-01-04T01:05:13Z nikki93: indeed
2015-01-04T01:05:20Z nikki93: i dunno if this pattern is making sense to you lol
2015-01-04T01:05:34Z nikki93: its my weird idea of how to manage game entities in a way that allows for live coding and speedy development
2015-01-04T01:05:39Z nyef: It's not. And that's partly because you're doing something completely bizarre, and partly the wine.
2015-01-04T01:05:48Z nikki93: you can add/remove functionality on the fly and dynamically on entities
2015-01-04T01:06:07Z nikki93: but at the same time it's pretty efficient
2015-01-04T01:06:20Z nikki93: I think I have a solution (:
2015-01-04T01:06:31Z nikki93: it's a naughty solution tho
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2015-01-04T01:08:10Z nikki93: nyef: I'm about to ask you a weird question
2015-01-04T01:08:18Z nikki93: nyef: what happens if you put a defclass in an initform
2015-01-04T01:08:32Z nikki93: nyef: like (slot :initform (defclass bla ...) ) --- will it redef the class every new instance created
2015-01-04T01:09:35Z ejbs: nikki93: Probably, yeah. Try it out?
2015-01-04T01:12:03Z nyef: That's... yeah, that's about right.
2015-01-04T01:12:10Z nyef: Eesh.
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2015-01-04T01:13:29Z nyef: And it's time for me to try and figure out what on earth I was thinking about 90 minutes ago.
2015-01-04T01:14:11Z nikki93: good luck
2015-01-04T01:14:21Z nikki93: I'm addicted to common lisp now -- I need to get back to doing school work
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2015-01-04T01:14:34Z nikki93: got this nietzsche paper to write and some other stuff and I've just been hacking on lisp instead
2015-01-04T01:15:10Z nyef: Remember, when you stare into the CONS, the CONS stares back into you.
2015-01-04T01:15:28Z nyef: Also, nihilism should begin with oneself.
2015-01-04T01:16:08Z nyef: ... And (setf (symbol-value nil) t).
2015-01-04T01:16:46Z akkad: nyef remember he dodged two wars...
2015-01-04T01:16:58Z nyef: ... and pretty much didn't get laid?
2015-01-04T01:17:10Z akkad: he got the std that killed him somehow
2015-01-04T01:17:16Z nyef: Okay, that's fair.
2015-01-04T01:17:57Z nyef: Anyway, I have a set of misleading-yet-entirely-accurate test cases to write. And make work.
2015-01-04T01:18:26Z nikki93: nyef: k I fixed it with more hacks. feels good
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2015-01-04T01:18:33Z nikki93: actually it's neater now
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2015-01-04T01:37:04Z jasom: what would happen if I had two lisp processess that loaded the same ASDF system at the same time?
2015-01-04T01:37:16Z jasom: s/loading/compiling
2015-01-04T01:38:17Z |3b| would expect bad things, at least some small fraction of the time
2015-01-04T01:38:28Z jasom: |3b|: okay, so it's not expected to be safe
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2015-01-04T01:38:53Z |3b| wouldn't expect it to, but can't say if specific implementations or asdf expect it to
2015-01-04T01:38:58Z jasom: ah
2015-01-04T01:39:04Z jasom: I'll ask on the asdf mailing list
2015-01-04T01:39:17Z jasom knows poiu can do parallel builds
2015-01-04T01:39:19Z |3b|: but it is the sort of thing that someone would need tjo intentionally make safe, it wouldn't be safe by coincidence
2015-01-04T01:40:12Z jasom: |3b|: right, which is why I was asking
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2015-01-04T01:40:16Z |3b|: for example implementations would need to not have partial .fasl files in existence, or have any window where overwriting it would fail or have side effects
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2015-01-04T01:41:18Z |3b|: and some implementations might worry about that sort of thing, but i'd be surprised if all of them did so, and got it right on all OS
2015-01-04T01:41:49Z |3b|: (and all variations of (particularly networked) filesystems)
2015-01-04T01:42:08Z nyef: What was that about Nightmare File System?
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2015-01-04T02:52:32Z zRecursive: cmucl reports: Error in KERNEL::UNDEFINED-SYMBOL-ERROR-HANDLER:  the function GENERATE-CRC32-TABLE is undefined. when loading quicklisp/setup.lisp.
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2015-01-04T02:56:18Z nyef: ... Oh, wow. Someone still uses CMUCL?
2015-01-04T02:57:22Z zRecursive: nyef: cmucl seems still maintained ?
2015-01-04T02:57:42Z nyef: Yes, thanks to rtoym, IIRC.
2015-01-04T02:58:07Z nyef: I'm just always surprised whenever I hear about it being used, or about maintenance being done.
2015-01-04T02:59:21Z zRecursive: i indeed like its image name: lisp :)
2015-01-04T02:59:44Z zRecursive: file /usr/local/bin/lisp => /usr/local/bin/lisp: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for FreeBSD 6.3, stripped
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2015-01-04T03:01:36Z zRecursive: Great! thw cmucl built maxima works very well.
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2015-01-04T03:52:19Z nyef: 10 out of 29 tests failed, but if I get all of them to pass then I think that I at least have the region union logic basically working.
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2015-01-04T04:11:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-01-04T04:12:37Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-01-04T04:13:59Z nyef is struggling with a region union operation still.
2015-01-04T04:14:39Z beach: How is the region represented again?
2015-01-04T04:15:44Z nyef: https://github.com/abridgewater/nq-clim/blob/master/geometry/standard-rectangle-set.lisp
2015-01-04T04:16:38Z nyef: I'll get it working this time, I know I will, but it might be tomorrow.
2015-01-04T04:17:16Z nyef: Actually, if it doesn't happen in the next 43 minutes, it WILL be tomorrow.
2015-01-04T04:17:35Z beach: Is that the same representation as is mentioned in the CLIM spec?
2015-01-04T04:18:50Z beach: Er, the first element of a Y-span is a Y-span?
2015-01-04T04:19:18Z beach: Y coordinate perhaps?
2015-01-04T04:19:19Z nyef: Not quite. It's trivial to transform it to the output of (region-set-regions ... :normalize :x-banding), and it's a permitted subset of REGION-SET.
2015-01-04T04:19:27Z nyef: It's the span of Y coordinates.
2015-01-04T04:19:43Z beach: The comments says the first element of a Y-span is a Y-span.
2015-01-04T04:19:50Z nyef: Yeah, I see that now.
2015-01-04T04:19:54Z nyef: Good catch.
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2015-01-04T04:21:23Z nyef: I'm really not sure how to re-word this for clarity, TBH.
2015-01-04T04:21:36Z beach: The names X-span and Y-span are sort of like big-endian and little-endian.  They don't directly correspond to the concept.  It would be great to have a one-sentence explanation in the comment so that the reader doesn't have to go buy the book.
2015-01-04T04:21:36Z beach:  
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2015-01-04T04:22:29Z nyef: Yeah, sending people to buy the book just to read five pages out of 1174 is a bit much.
2015-01-04T04:23:13Z beach: I mean, does an X-span correspond to fixed X coordinates, with several Y coordinates, or does it span several X coordinates with fixed Y coordinates?
2015-01-04T04:23:15Z |3b|: what, they don't already have a copy? :p
2015-01-04T04:23:38Z beach: Perhaps I should get myself a copy.  Thanks |3b|.
2015-01-04T04:23:41Z |3b|: making them go dig it up on the other hand ;)
2015-01-04T04:24:10Z nyef: beach: If you're going to be doing client-side rendering, it might well be interesting for you.
2015-01-04T04:24:22Z beach: Yes, I agree.
2015-01-04T04:24:30Z |3b| is surprised, its is actually readily accessible
2015-01-04T04:24:44Z nyef: It almost has me ready to consider implementing more of the CLIM geometry specification.
2015-01-04T04:24:51Z beach: Though a lot of info is now available as research articles on the web.
2015-01-04T04:25:22Z nyef: There are some good sections on doing geometric clipping on graphics operations prior to rasterization.
2015-01-04T04:25:41Z beach: nyef: While you were away, we agreed that there are efficient algorithms to compute the intersection and union of two regions defined by Bezier segments.
2015-01-04T04:26:02Z nyef: Okay, that sounds good.
2015-01-04T04:26:29Z beach: Then, ellipses could be represented as very good approximations of such regions.
2015-01-04T04:26:29Z nyef: I'm not completely convinced about using Bezier segments to define regions, though.
2015-01-04T04:26:36Z beach: Oh, OK.
2015-01-04T04:26:39Z beach: Never mind then.
2015-01-04T04:26:57Z nyef: Good thing we each have our own implementation to mess with then, right?
2015-01-04T04:27:04Z beach: Indeed.
2015-01-04T04:27:31Z beach: It allows for very general shapes of regions, though, including regions for defining glyphs.
2015-01-04T04:27:54Z beach: But, yeah, I am into client-side rendering these days.
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2015-01-04T04:35:01Z nyef: Oh, hell. Just found another case that I hadn't considered with the union operation. /-:
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2015-01-04T04:49:25Z nyef: Hrm. 10 failures.
2015-01-04T04:49:42Z beach: Where do your tests come from?
2015-01-04T04:49:55Z nyef: I basically made them up.
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2015-01-04T04:50:42Z nyef: ... Oh. Forgot the subset test. Oops.
2015-01-04T04:50:56Z nyef: This is far, far more complicated than I should be trying to do with LOOP.
2015-01-04T04:51:22Z nyef: Yeah, 50-line LOOP form (including comments).
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2015-01-04T04:51:38Z nyef: Three levels of conditionals.
2015-01-04T04:51:40Z nyef: This isn't right.
2015-01-04T04:52:25Z beach: Time to break it up into smaller functions, it seems.
2015-01-04T04:52:49Z nyef: Thinking about it.
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2015-01-04T04:55:07Z nyef: Okay, the first thing to do is to add the new test case, since I don't want to forget it.
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2015-01-04T05:01:14Z nyef: I think I know where I'm going wrong with this. I'm trying to do it by analogy with the way I handled the X-spans, but there's an explosion of special cases and nested depths if I do it that way.
2015-01-04T05:01:48Z nyef: I need to step through each side independently.
2015-01-04T05:02:27Z nyef: And that means iteration control more obnoxious than LOOP will easily support.
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2015-01-04T05:13:03Z nyef: beach: I should credit you as Robert Strandh, shouldn't I?
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2015-01-04T05:15:42Z beach: Yes.  What do I deserve credit for?
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2015-01-04T05:16:31Z nyef: Pointing out problems with comments.
2015-01-04T05:16:39Z beach: Oh, OK :)
2015-01-04T05:16:51Z nyef: (the "a Y-span starts with a Y-span?" thing.)
2015-01-04T05:17:12Z beach: Yes, yes.  I remember.  Minor thing though.  I don't insist on being credited.
2015-01-04T05:17:13Z nyef: It's still not good, but it's at least a little better.
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2015-01-04T05:23:23Z beach: nyef: So this is the first time you use GitHub?
2015-01-04T05:23:33Z beach: I only see that one repository.
2015-01-04T05:24:30Z nyef: I used it briefly a while back to comment on something or other, and more recently I had to start using it because they started using it at the office.
2015-01-04T05:24:37Z nyef: But this is the first public thing I've posted to it.
2015-01-04T05:25:11Z beach: I see.  Do you mind if I look at the code and maybe make suggestions, improve comments and such?
2015-01-04T05:25:20Z beach: No promise. I just wanted to ask beforehand.
2015-01-04T05:26:09Z nyef: I won't stop you, but I'm currently aware that there are a LOT of loose ends and whatnot.
2015-01-04T05:26:24Z beach: I'll keep that in mind.
2015-01-04T05:27:46Z nyef: I also have some stuff from another previous incarnation of nq-clim that I've yet to import.
2015-01-04T05:27:57Z nyef: Mostly because it doesn't fit yet.
2015-01-04T05:28:20Z beach: OK.  Don't worry, I won't make major contributions.
2015-01-04T05:28:43Z beach: It will be equivalent to public domain, yes?
2015-01-04T05:29:05Z beach: ... or MIT or something like that.
2015-01-04T05:29:13Z nyef: I'm likely to use MIT or one of the BSDs for a license. Plausibly the 3-clause BSD license.
2015-01-04T05:29:29Z beach: OK.  Just wanted to know.
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2015-01-04T05:32:47Z beach: nyef: How about using #.(format nil "...") for docstrings?  Then you can use ~@ so that you don't have to have text in column 0 of the source, but the resulting text will still be in column 0.
2015-01-04T05:33:33Z nyef: Mmm. Maybe. Is that what you've been doing with, what was it, SICL?
2015-01-04T05:33:40Z beach: Yes.
2015-01-04T05:33:51Z nyef: Don't you also have them out-of-line?
2015-01-04T05:33:56Z beach: Yes.
2015-01-04T05:34:05Z beach: But I see you don't so that's your preference.
2015-01-04T05:34:33Z nyef: I've been a bit spotty about docstrings anyway, focusing more on trying to get parts of the system working.
2015-01-04T05:34:55Z beach: Yes.  I was thinking about something I could contribute.
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2015-01-04T05:35:12Z beach: I wasn't suggesting that you change your focus.
2015-01-04T05:35:28Z beach: It's fine if you say no.
2015-01-04T05:37:25Z nyef: I think I'd like to do an edit pass to deal with docstrings once I have the basic system working end-to-end, and thus have a reasonable grasp on what the various parts all do.
2015-01-04T05:37:41Z beach: Sure, no problem.
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2015-01-04T05:37:56Z nyef: The main thing that I could probably do with is feedback on the general direction I'm going with things.
2015-01-04T05:38:16Z beach: I'll keep that in mind.
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2015-01-04T05:38:41Z nyef: Am I missing anything important? Am I doing anything horribly wrong that's going to bite me later?
2015-01-04T05:39:02Z beach: Got it.
2015-01-04T05:42:48Z beach: The idea of having multiple packages is a good one in my opinion, but it is not what the CLIM II spec suggests.  Is this one of the "NQ" parts?
2015-01-04T05:43:51Z nyef: It doesn't take much to add a file that has a large :USE list and a large :EXPORT list to provide a single package with all of the public symbols.
2015-01-04T05:44:13Z beach: Good point.
2015-01-04T05:44:28Z nyef: It's always been on the plan, but until it's ready for users there isn't over-much point.
2015-01-04T05:45:01Z beach: I was thinking about the CLIM-INTERNALS package rather than the CLIM package.
2015-01-04T05:45:30Z beach: But since the spec says "might", it probably doesn't matter if there is a single one or multiple "implementation" packages.
2015-01-04T05:46:14Z nyef: Yeah, there's no conflict with the spec there.
2015-01-04T05:46:20Z beach: Multiple packages is, in fact, a lot better.
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2015-01-04T05:46:49Z nyef: At this point I'm expecting conflicts around event handling, regions, and the design-based drawing model.
2015-01-04T05:47:16Z beach: Naming conflicts?
2015-01-04T05:47:31Z nyef: Conflicts between what nq-clim does and what the spec requires.
2015-01-04T05:47:46Z beach: Sure.  Hence the NQ part.
2015-01-04T05:48:53Z beach: I am just trying to figure out which parts of the spec you intend to respect (separation between sheets and output records, for instance) and which parts you do NOT intend to respect.  I am sure that is not quite clear to you either right now.
2015-01-04T05:49:34Z nyef: Right, I'm still figuring out in what ways the spec makes sense.
2015-01-04T05:49:45Z beach: Understandable.
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2015-01-04T05:57:10Z nyef: I also need to find another system to target for a backend.
2015-01-04T05:58:09Z nyef: A decade ago that system might have been windows, but it sure isn't now.
2015-01-04T05:58:34Z beach: "another" as in a second one?
2015-01-04T05:58:40Z nyef: Yes.
2015-01-04T05:59:03Z beach: How about a framebuffer backend?
2015-01-04T05:59:16Z beach: It would still be X11, but very different.
2015-01-04T05:59:19Z nyef: It's become plainly obvious to me that an X11 backend will contain almost no cleverness with the adaptive toolkit, and that's something that I want to experiment with.
2015-01-04T05:59:29Z beach: Oh, I see.
2015-01-04T06:00:00Z nyef: A framebuffer? If I went in that direction, I'd more likely bind to the Linux framebuffer interface. Boom, no more X11 required.
2015-01-04T06:00:13Z beach: OK.
2015-01-04T06:00:32Z beach didn't know about the existence of such an interface.
2015-01-04T06:00:38Z nyef: But at the same time, no need for adaptive toolkit stuff.
2015-01-04T06:01:14Z beach: I have no opinion about what toolkit you might choose.
2015-01-04T06:01:21Z nyef: MacOS Carbon might have been a good target. Cocoa might have to suffice.
2015-01-04T06:02:38Z nyef: I don't really want to try to bind to Qt or GTk+ (or whatever it's called these days).
2015-01-04T06:02:56Z nyef: It's still a ways off, though, anyway.
2015-01-04T06:03:14Z akkad: if you have a large string you wish to make less obvious in your saved image, what are some easy ways to not have it show up in strings(1)
2015-01-04T06:03:51Z nyef: akkad: Compress it.
2015-01-04T06:03:51Z Hexstream: akkad: Maybe some XORing scheme?
2015-01-04T06:04:19Z akkad: yeah compression sounds fine. it's not secrets, IV's or anything like that. just html
2015-01-04T06:04:40Z nyef: Why are you worried about it showing up in strings(1)?
2015-01-04T06:05:14Z akkad: how. the question is always how. -Mitnick
2015-01-04T06:05:35Z Hexstream: Probably not very effective if you make the code open-source anyway, which is usually a good idea... And no need to tell you about "security by obscurity"...
2015-01-04T06:05:58Z akkad: security through minority actually works. your password is obscure... otherwise it's a poor password
2015-01-04T06:06:20Z nyef: akkad: Reminds me of the joke about the (American) Indian. "I know how, I want to know why."
2015-01-04T06:06:58Z akkad: let's just say we don't want grep(1) saying "this binary ALSO matches"
2015-01-04T06:07:34Z Hexstream: akkad: Well, if nobody cares anyway there's no point in hiding, and if someone cares then they'll quickly pierce the veil of obscurity. So it's typically self-defeating and pointless one way or another.
2015-01-04T06:08:25Z akkad: same explanation of "why would you want to distribute a binary?" -rubyWord
2015-01-04T06:10:33Z Hexstream: Not as easy to google as I anticipated.
2015-01-04T06:12:26Z akkad: Hiding? I'm just trying to get better page size boundary alignment to avoid extra cache misses and extra page faults
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2015-01-04T06:13:10Z nyef: Riiight. Compress that sucker.
2015-01-04T06:14:01Z akkad: TLB misses really suck
2015-01-04T06:14:02Z Hexstream: akkad: I don't understand what that has to do with "strings". I must be missing something.
2015-01-04T06:15:12Z akkad: security bike shedding is easily halted with performance optimization discussion :P
2015-01-04T06:16:57Z Hexstream: If I understood everything correctly, this is the sloppiest moving-the-goalposts I've ever seen. Whatever.
2015-01-04T06:17:04Z |3b| was going to say "just include that strings(1) exploit" to keep people from looking at it :p
2015-01-04T06:19:18Z akkad: |3b| true.
2015-01-04T06:21:19Z nyef: Ugh. It's gotten late again. Time for me to sign off.
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2015-01-04T06:40:26Z akkad: Hexstream: you're right. Hiding anything won't work absolutely. so why bother with crypto at all?
2015-01-04T06:41:11Z Zhivago: It works if you can keep the secrets secret.
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2015-01-04T06:42:16Z |3b| would argue properly done crypto isn't just 'hiding'
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2015-01-04T06:43:27Z Hexstream: akkad: Stupid little obfuscation tricks can't be usefully compared to strong crypto other than by saying that they're completely different things, I think.
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2015-01-04T06:47:48Z Zhivago: In this case it seems that the effect is to frustrate stupid people, which has some intrinsic value, I guess.
2015-01-04T06:48:39Z akkad: from Greek kruptos ‘hidden.’
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2015-01-04T06:49:08Z akkad: just tire of that age old security strawman against raising the bar.
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2015-01-04T06:53:00Z |3b|: considering the number of people who don't even bother to have a bar, i'm not sure it is a strawman
2015-01-04T06:54:04Z zRecursive: what's the corresponding function of save-lisp-and-die in cmucl ?
2015-01-04T06:55:03Z akkad: ccl:save-application
2015-01-04T06:55:15Z akkad: e.g. (ccl:save-application "./jsonip-ccl" :prepend-kernel t :toplevel-function #'jsonip::main )
2015-01-04T06:55:28Z akkad: oops misread
2015-01-04T06:55:39Z zRecursive: akkad: thanks! i want to save a stumpwm image
2015-01-04T06:55:54Z akkad: that;'s for ccl
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2015-01-04T06:56:01Z akkad: clozure
2015-01-04T06:56:03Z zRecursive: hehe
2015-01-04T06:56:10Z Hexstream: zRecursive: Do you have a particular reason to use CMUCL specifically instead of SBCL, its much more popular successor?
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2015-01-04T06:56:42Z zRecursive: here, sbcl image is too big for an old box
2015-01-04T06:57:00Z Hexstream: Ah. That sounds like an ok reason. :)
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2015-01-04T06:57:08Z akkad: :D
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2015-01-04T06:57:46Z zRecursive: all is ok except the saving the image
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2015-01-04T06:58:36Z akkad: save-lisp?
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2015-01-04T06:58:47Z |3b|: is cmucl much smaller?
2015-01-04T06:59:05Z akkad: yeah looks like save-lisp works on cmucl
2015-01-04T06:59:48Z zRecursive: googling ...
2015-01-04T07:00:01Z akkad: (save-lisp "/tmp/foo")
2015-01-04T07:00:14Z |3b| thought it was similar size as sbcl, and would have tried ccl or maybe clisp for smaller images
2015-01-04T07:00:36Z zRecursive: |3b|: maybe later
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2015-01-04T07:09:39Z Zhivago: Cmucl has a bytecode interpreter, so it may potentially have much smaller images, at the cost of performance.
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2015-01-04T07:16:20Z akkad: I've created a new encoding, I'll call it UTF-16. :P
2015-01-04T07:16:54Z Hexstream: Nice, I thought clisp was the only still-worked-on Common Lisp implementation using bytecode. (Well, not entirely sure clisp is still being worked on given the lack of release in years but I don't care to investigate more deeply).
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2015-01-04T07:25:37Z akkad: is the editor included with ccl related to Hemlock?
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2015-01-04T07:28:16Z Hexstream: According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clozure_CL, yes.
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2015-01-04T07:37:55Z zRecursive: Unfortunately the cmucl image is almost the same size as SBCL. ls -l quicklisp/local-projects/stumpwm/stumpwm => 44264965 quicklisp/local-projects/stumpwm/stumpwm.  will try CCL or CLISP as |3b| suggested.  the command is: (ext:save-lisp "stumpwm" :purify t :load-init-file nil :process-command-line nil :executable t :batch-mode nil :print-herald nil :init-function #'stumpwm:stumpwm)
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2015-01-04T08:01:02Z pendapi: zRecursive what's the RSS look like?
2015-01-04T08:01:13Z pendapi: akkad use gzip insteadl of aes
2015-01-04T08:02:01Z pendapi: akkad: unless you have ussid18 proof encryption, I'd not even bother
2015-01-04T08:02:15Z stassats: what?
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2015-01-04T08:07:25Z akkad: pendapi: good point. thanks
2015-01-04T08:08:54Z akkad: USSID 18 is titled, “Legal Compliance and U.S. Persons Minimization Procedures” for encryption decoded by SIGINT
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2015-01-04T08:43:09Z akkad: It does not yet support decompression.
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2015-01-04T09:18:39Z akkad: (chipz:decompress *STDOUT* 'chipz:gzip (salza2:compress-data (babel:string-to-octets "Hello World") 'salza2::gzip-compressor)) ;; no joy
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2015-01-04T09:21:45Z |3b|: is *stdout* bound to some binary stream?
2015-01-04T09:22:17Z |3b|: works for me with it wrapped in octets-to-string and NIL instead of *stdout*
2015-01-04T09:22:37Z akkad: (babel:octets-to-string (chipz:decompress nil 'chipz:gzip (salza2:compress-data (babel:string-to-octets "Hello World") 'salza2::gzip-compressor)) :encoding :utf-8)
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2015-01-04T09:23:09Z |3b|: yep, that returns "Hello World"
2015-01-04T09:23:27Z akkad: "I get it! chipz and salsa"
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2015-01-04T10:20:40Z shka: good day lispers!
2015-01-04T10:20:48Z shka: :-)
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2015-01-04T10:23:19Z AeroNotix: lo
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2015-01-04T10:25:54Z akkad: wee
2015-01-04T10:28:17Z akkad: wow deflate vs gzip on 133k strings in a giant list sure generate more errors on decryption than gzip
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2015-01-04T10:52:27Z akkad: chipz have severe sbcl optimizations?
2015-01-04T10:52:33Z pjb: -
2015-01-04T10:52:41Z akkad: it's like 10x faster than acl/lw
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2015-01-04T10:57:10Z H4ns: tag
2015-01-04T10:57:12Z H4ns: oops
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2015-01-04T11:07:24Z pendapi: akkad: got an example of the code?
2015-01-04T11:07:53Z beach: pjb: Are you making any progress on the infrastructure for Common Lisp version 2?
2015-01-04T11:08:21Z beach: pjb: Just checking.  No need to rush if you don't have time.
2015-01-04T11:08:59Z akkad: pendapi: https://gist.github.com/b881217cfe93d7b9f477
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2015-01-04T11:09:23Z Ober: wow real piece of crap code there
2015-01-04T11:09:25Z pjb: Yes.  The hard disks of the old server failed, so I had to fasten the migration to the new one.  It's not finished yet.
2015-01-04T11:09:46Z beach: pjb: OK, like I said, just checking.
2015-01-04T11:09:48Z pendapi: ugg. don't use acl. stick to sbcl.
2015-01-04T11:10:22Z akkad: it's 20s vs like 2 on sbcl
2015-01-04T11:10:49Z Ober: akkad: profile it
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2015-01-04T11:15:32Z Hexstream: pjb: "hasten", rather. :)   (Also, never heard of "Common Lisp version 2" before. What?)
2015-01-04T11:15:37Z Ober: akkad: (with-profiling (:type :time) (your code))
2015-01-04T11:16:02Z Ober: (with-profiler even
2015-01-04T11:16:35Z beach: Hexstream: A project to clean up the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  Basically define more undefined situations, and fixing bugs.
2015-01-04T11:17:18Z Hexstream: beach: Sounds nice. Any good public sources of information about it? Or is it still embryonic?
2015-01-04T11:17:51Z beach: Hexstream: We are waiting for pjb to have time to set up the infrastructure.
2015-01-04T11:18:08Z beach: Hexstream: A major goal is this: An implementation that is conforming with respect to Common Lisp version 2 will also be conforming with respect to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2015-01-04T11:18:12Z Ober: no copywrite issueS?
2015-01-04T11:18:16Z beach: [modulo bugs]
2015-01-04T11:18:33Z beach: Ober: We start with the dpANS which is freely available.
2015-01-04T11:18:45Z Hexstream: Right, sounds like something that should exist and could nicely compliment other efforts.
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2015-01-04T11:19:15Z beach: Hexstream: Yes, the secret is to avoid changing the language, like some people do.
2015-01-04T11:19:47Z Hexstream: I think there's enough space for various efforts of various different scopes. :)
2015-01-04T11:20:35Z beach: Hexstream: Except that all the attempts that change the language in some radical way are bound to fail.  We hope that this one will not fail.  In fact, a modern implementation such as SBCL should already mostly be conforming.
2015-01-04T11:20:49Z akkad: beach nice
2015-01-04T11:21:13Z Hexstream: A related idea of mine, though just an idea at this point, would be just taking the CLHS and producing a version that is exactly the same except with the markup converted to modern HTML5 + CSS3 in a way that it can formally be verified that no user-visible semantic changes have occured.
2015-01-04T11:21:49Z beach: Hexstream: That is, unfortunately, illegal.
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2015-01-04T11:22:02Z Hexstream: beach: Yes, with eventual participation of Lispworks, I mean.
2015-01-04T11:22:38Z Hexstream: Well, probably an intermingling of making a large amount of work in private and sharing the results with Lispworks and negotiating and adjusting, etc.
2015-01-04T11:22:52Z beach: Hexstream: I have been told that the dpANS differs from the final standard in only very insignificant ways.  I think it is better to start with the dpANS.
2015-01-04T11:22:54Z Hexstream: With many such cycles.
2015-01-04T11:23:33Z H4ns: shaving the lawyer's yak is what i'd call that.
2015-01-04T11:23:54Z beach: H4ns: Which one?
2015-01-04T11:24:10Z H4ns: all that messing around "licensing restrictions"
2015-01-04T11:24:17Z beach: Indeed.
2015-01-04T11:24:20Z beach: Very sad.
2015-01-04T11:24:51Z Hexstream: "There's more than one irritatingly bad way to do it!"
2015-01-04T11:26:19Z Hexstream: beach: As for "all the attempts that change the language in some radical way are bound to fail", I agree with the caveat that making a new language based on Common Lisp could possibly succeed, though with a very small chance of success/relevance.
2015-01-04T11:26:29Z Hexstream: (But of course I'd say that...)
2015-01-04T11:26:46Z H4ns: how can something that is irrelevant be successful?
2015-01-04T11:27:33Z beach: H4ns: You speak in riddles today. :) What is it that you find irrelevant?
2015-01-04T11:27:35Z Hexstream: I did not imply this. I meant "with a very small chance of success, with a very small chance of relevance".
2015-01-04T11:28:08Z H4ns: beach: :) i misunderstood hexstream's sentence regarding a "new language based on common lisp"
2015-01-04T11:28:28Z beach: Oh, whew!  I thought I had some brain damage last night.
2015-01-04T11:28:51Z H4ns: don't worry, it is more likely me.  i'm sick and should rather watch t.v. or something.
2015-01-04T11:29:01Z Hexstream: And well, you could make for instance an operating system that would be a "failure" yet would be relevant. Like Plan 9.
2015-01-04T11:29:09Z beach: H4ns: Sorry to hear that.  Yeah, try to get some rest.
2015-01-04T11:30:34Z beach: Hexstream: I am not smart enough, and I don't have the means to surround myself with sufficiently many sufficiently smart people to create a language that is guaranteed to be better than Common Lisp.  So I might as well try to do something useful that doesn't require that much brain power.
2015-01-04T11:32:26Z Hexstream: beach: This is too early to share, but: http://www.stream-lisp.org/ I spent much of 2014 trying to gear up to significantly improve this (notably through improving http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/notes-tips-standard-common-lisp-symbols/), but my plans broke down horribly, and I also lost most of my sanity in the process. o_o
2015-01-04T11:32:26Z beach: Now, if I won the lottery that would be another matter.  Problem is, I don't play.
2015-01-04T11:33:07Z Hexstream: Things are definitely boiling up for me and 2015 should be quite interesting, at last...
2015-01-04T11:34:20Z beach: Hexstream: Very ambitious.  Nearly impossible for a single person to do from scratch, unless you take a few years off from your ordinary life.
2015-01-04T11:34:40Z Hexstream: Well, that's pretty much what I'm doing already. I don't have an "ordinary life".
2015-01-04T11:34:41Z beach: Starting from the dpANS on the other hand, should be quite doable.
2015-01-04T11:34:55Z beach: Hexstream: Oh, congratulations then. :)
2015-01-04T11:35:47Z Hexstream: Well, financed by Mom™, so not really a merit thing, but I try to make up for it... o_o
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2015-01-04T11:37:15Z beach: I don't know what to say.
2015-01-04T11:38:03Z Hexstream: I know, it's fucking crazy. Batshit insane, and probably not a good idea.
2015-01-04T11:38:19Z Hexstream: As long as I'm conscious of that, I think it's less dangerous.
2015-01-04T11:38:34Z Grue`: nooo, you removed &aux, my favorite :(
2015-01-04T11:38:37Z wasamasa: &key+?
2015-01-04T11:38:42Z wasamasa: Hexstream: are you drew adams?
2015-01-04T11:38:48Z Hexstream: wasamasa: LIke &key &allow-other-keys
2015-01-04T11:38:53Z Hexstream: wasamasa: Nope.
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2015-01-04T11:39:11Z wasamasa: Hexstream: he's the guy so creative he named all of his minor emacs packages xyz+
2015-01-04T11:40:11Z Hexstream: Here's my favorite non-obvious Stream Lisp idea: https://twitter.com/StreamLisp/status/437414508215414784
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2015-01-04T11:51:28Z Hexstream: 6:51AM here, time to get some sleep. Sorry if I traumatized anyone. :)
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2015-01-04T11:53:41Z akkad: anyone have elisp code that calls out to CL?
2015-01-04T11:53:50Z akkad: in something other than say org-babel mode
2015-01-04T11:53:58Z pjb: slime.
2015-01-04T11:54:25Z akkad: ahh the nrepl/cider clone right.
2015-01-04T11:54:31Z akkad: yes, obvious troll.
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2015-01-04T13:23:45Z serichsen: Hello!
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2015-01-04T13:54:57Z beach: hello serichsen.
2015-01-04T13:59:17Z serichsen: Hey! :) Happy New Year!
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2015-01-04T14:01:12Z beach: You too.
2015-01-04T14:03:43Z butyoudonot: How to divide a number without a modulo? Like (/ 27 10) -> 2
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2015-01-04T14:04:16Z beach: clhs floor
2015-01-04T14:04:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm
2015-01-04T14:06:54Z hitecnologys: clhs truncate
2015-01-04T14:06:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm
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2015-01-04T14:08:56Z beach: butyoudonot: In case you didn't get it, those two links were for you.
2015-01-04T14:09:34Z beach: In fact, it's just one link twice.
2015-01-04T14:09:55Z butyoudonot: Yep, thanks. I'm googling how to get the first part of this tuple now
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2015-01-04T14:10:28Z beach: butyoudonot: Nothing special to do.  Just keep one value: (let ((result (floor 27 10))) (print result))
2015-01-04T14:10:47Z beach: butyoudonot: It's not a tuple, it's two return values.
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2015-01-04T14:11:32Z mrkkrp: clhs multiple-value-bind
2015-01-04T14:11:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm
2015-01-04T14:11:36Z ehu: butyoudonot: you have to take special action to catch the second and next values
2015-01-04T14:11:44Z ehu: see that link by mrkkrp
2015-01-04T14:12:12Z hitecnologys: There's also NTH-VALUE, if you don't care about other values.
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2015-01-04T14:28:10Z beach: butyoudonot: Did you figure out what to do?
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2015-01-04T14:29:51Z butyoudonot: Yep, thanks
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2015-01-04T14:37:03Z butyoudonot: How do you guys convert number to a list?
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2015-01-04T14:37:53Z hitecnologys: Err. How do you expect that to happen?
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2015-01-04T14:40:34Z hitecnologys: butyoudonot: what exactly are you trying to do?
2015-01-04T14:41:11Z hitecnologys: butyoudonot: if you want to make list of some length, then you need MAKE-LIST.
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2015-01-04T14:45:39Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-01-04T14:45:44Z beach: Hello nyef.
2015-01-04T14:45:58Z nyef: I'm here for maybe an hour and a half this morning, then I probably have to head out for a while.
2015-01-04T14:46:20Z beach: And I won't stick around, because I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2015-01-04T14:46:28Z nyef: Fair enough.
2015-01-04T14:46:45Z nyef: I think I have rectangle-set unity figured out
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2015-01-04T14:47:35Z nyef: I'm at 9 failures out of 30, all to do with coalescing adjacent Y-spans with identical X-spans.
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2015-01-04T14:48:20Z Grue`: butyoudonot: (list number)
2015-01-04T14:48:47Z hitecnologys: nyef: morning.
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2015-01-04T14:51:39Z nyef: Oh, and it looks like I'll be able to shake some common structure out of this mess so that the remaining set operations go a lot more smoothly.
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2015-01-04T14:59:47Z nyef: And all tests passed. What remains is cleanup.
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2015-01-04T15:31:20Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-01-04T15:31:47Z nyef: Using (RETURN) inside LOOP looks like it should trump COLLECT and other value-accumulation clauses.
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2015-01-04T15:32:16Z nyef: Oh. Right, not using them, no wonder my code didn't break.
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2015-01-04T15:44:15Z n0den1te: hi, does anyone know how I can get tab-completion in the inferior lisp window in emacs?
2015-01-04T15:44:47Z stassats: why would you want to do that?
2015-01-04T15:45:06Z n0den1te: I'm using clisp -- tried using slime, but it just kept interrupting my repl input by constantly flashing in the status buffer
2015-01-04T15:45:10Z nyef: Bind the tab key to something like dabbrev-expand (IIRC). Or use M-/ instead.
2015-01-04T15:45:18Z nyef: Also, try not using clisp. d-:
2015-01-04T15:45:28Z n0den1te: stassats: why not?
2015-01-04T15:45:43Z stassats: n0den1te: nobody uses the inferior lisp buffer
2015-01-04T15:45:46Z nyef: (You may have a good reason to use clisp, but I found it very frustrating to use the one time that I had a good reason to use it.)
2015-01-04T15:45:48Z n0den1te: nyef: M-/ works, thanks!
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2015-01-04T15:46:15Z nyef: You'll also find that M-/ tends to work no matter what buffer you're in.
2015-01-04T15:46:35Z n0den1te: nyef: so what do people use? CCL,SBCL?
2015-01-04T15:46:39Z stassats: or not work
2015-01-04T15:46:55Z nyef: stassats: Or that, yes.
2015-01-04T15:47:00Z n0den1te: nyef: I'm just using clisp since that's what comes along with cygwin package managers.
2015-01-04T15:47:21Z stassats: cygwin, another thing i would steer clear of
2015-01-04T15:47:35Z nyef: Ah, windows. That was my good reason for using clisp that one time. Well, that and SBCL not having a working windows port at the time.
2015-01-04T15:47:49Z Shinmera: On windows CCL would be the primary choice, iirc.
2015-01-04T15:47:58Z Shinmera: Or, not using windows.
2015-01-04T15:49:20Z n0den1te: Shinmera: I might switch over to Linux some time - let's just say that *not* using windows is not an option right now.
2015-01-04T15:49:24Z nyef: My primary choice would be not using windows in the first place. My secondary choice would be SBCL because I'm an SBCL hacker. Then probably CCL.
2015-01-04T15:49:34Z nyef: n0den1te: VirtualBox?
2015-01-04T15:49:51Z n0den1te: nyef: yeah, I have that too
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2015-01-04T15:50:25Z Shinmera: I don't personally use windows anymore, but a friend of mine had less issues with CCL than SBCL.
2015-01-04T15:53:42Z n0den1te: nyef: is there a 64-bit windows port of SBCL available?
2015-01-04T15:53:49Z stassats: yes
2015-01-04T15:54:34Z n0den1te: ok, I'll try that when I get to it. Thanks
2015-01-04T15:55:34Z Grue`: sbcl works pretty well on windows, it even has an installer
2015-01-04T15:56:12Z stassats: the last SBCL is particularly broken on windows, though
2015-01-04T15:56:35Z Grue`: in what way?
2015-01-04T15:56:48Z stassats: uses 1.5 times more memory
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2015-01-04T15:57:36Z stassats: it does that everywhere, but at least everywhere else it is supposed to be virtual most of the time
2015-01-04T15:57:37Z Grue`: not a big deal then
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2015-01-04T15:58:37Z stassats: is it not? non-working programs doesn't sound like a small deal
2015-01-04T15:59:20Z n0den1te: Grue`: 1.5x memory consumption where most of it is eaten up by the compiler is _bad_
2015-01-04T15:59:39Z n0den1te: Grue`: particularly in cases where programs were previously working
2015-01-04T16:01:46Z Grue`: i develop on windows and deploy on linux, so if it happens to use less memory on linux that's a nice bonus!
2015-01-04T16:02:09Z pjb: n0den1te: use the clisp -I option!
2015-01-04T16:02:29Z stassats: Grue`: well, it uses 1.5 more memory on linux too, just that it has some help from madvise
2015-01-04T16:02:33Z n0den1te: pjb: is that for tab completion?
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2015-01-04T16:02:51Z stassats: but on 32-bit arches, it may not even start with a larger heap
2015-01-04T16:03:08Z pjb: n0den1te: clisp is very good. I use only clisp for my scripts.
2015-01-04T16:03:33Z pjb: n0den1te: cygwin is also very good, if you have to use MS-Windows.
2015-01-04T16:03:50Z pjb: n0den1te: (of course, if you have a PC that can run MS-Windows, you could as well install Linux on it).
2015-01-04T16:04:30Z n0den1te: pjb: yes, I use emacs mainly under cygwin
2015-01-04T16:05:01Z n0den1te: pjb: for some reason, I don't like it any other way :-)
2015-01-04T16:05:29Z pjb: For completion, you may want to use auto-complete-mode.
2015-01-04T16:05:41Z n0den1te: but SLIME is annoying, so I just use the inferior lisp mode
2015-01-04T16:06:02Z pjb: What problem do you have with slime? Nowadays, it works well.
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2015-01-04T16:07:01Z n0den1te: well, for one thing, it works over a local socket connection and it keeps beeping into my status buffer about connection status.
2015-01-04T16:07:27Z pjb: n0den1te: it does that when it cannot connect.
2015-01-04T16:07:33Z pjb: Solve this problem and it will be ok.
2015-01-04T16:07:56Z n0den1te: pjb: no, it's connected alright. Why does it have to keep flashing then?
2015-01-04T16:08:02Z pjb: Perhaps you didn't configure inferior-lisp-program ?
2015-01-04T16:08:26Z n0den1te: no, it's done
2015-01-04T16:08:56Z n0den1te: SLIME works - but for those annoying messages and inability to gracefully quit trashed sessions
2015-01-04T16:09:26Z pjb: What's the value of swank:*use-dedicated-output-stream* ?
2015-01-04T16:09:41Z pjb: I have: (defparameter swank:*use-dedicated-output-stream* nil) in ~/.swank.lisp
2015-01-04T16:09:49Z stassats: it defaults to nil
2015-01-04T16:10:03Z n0den1te: I haven't set it - so I guess nil
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2015-01-04T16:11:37Z _2_jain: ;)
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2015-01-04T16:12:09Z Shinmera: ..
2015-01-04T16:12:26Z Shinmera: n0den1te: What do you mean by "inability to quit trashed sessions"?
2015-01-04T16:12:31Z Grue`: i remember somebody saying clisp didn't work with slime well recently
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2015-01-04T16:13:28Z n0den1te: Shinmera: let's say that I have a b0rked clisp session (for some reason)... then I should be able to quickly close the SLIME session and restart it anew, right?
2015-01-04T16:13:40Z Shinmera: n0den1te: in the repl, type: ,restart
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2015-01-04T16:13:46Z n0den1te: Shinmera: nope. SLIME constantly beeps about my buffer about *LOST* connections
2015-01-04T16:14:35Z Shinmera: Well, given your peculiar setup prerequisites I can't easily tell you what exactly the culprit is
2015-01-04T16:14:56Z Shinmera: I can however tell you that emacs and slime work wonderfully well on windows if you don't use cygwin or clisp.
2015-01-04T16:15:08Z pjb: Grue`: this is not true, and hasn't been true for several years now.
2015-01-04T16:15:15Z n0den1te: Shinmera: no worries. I have given up on SLIME for now. I'm happy just using plain inferior lisp mode. :-)
2015-01-04T16:15:17Z Shinmera: ((I have a portable CL environment that works on all platforms just dandy))
2015-01-04T16:15:26Z Shinmera: n0den1te: You should not be.
2015-01-04T16:15:44Z n0den1te: :D
2015-01-04T16:15:48Z Xach: Nothing is worse than someone who thinks they are happy when they really aren't
2015-01-04T16:15:59Z Xach: True happiness must be thrust upon them
2015-01-04T16:16:11Z n0den1te: ....
2015-01-04T16:16:34Z Shinmera: #lisp is the true #ingsoc
2015-01-04T16:16:46Z pjb: Xach: happiness is a differential social construct :-)
2015-01-04T16:16:46Z n0den1te: that's like saying "Life as a hermit is true happiness"
2015-01-04T16:17:13Z stassats: i would give up on slime if i misconfigured it and refused to properly configure it too
2015-01-04T16:17:48Z n0den1te: err
2015-01-04T16:18:19Z n0den1te: I have only 4 lines on my slime setup load-path (to SLIME .el files), inferior-lisp-program, require 'slime and slime-setup
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2015-01-04T16:18:26Z n0den1te: is there anything more to do?
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2015-01-04T16:19:17Z stassats: who knows, you're not telling what's wrong with it
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2015-01-04T16:24:31Z n0den1te: :-)
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2015-01-04T16:31:02Z flip214:  Is there a way to make a symbol available with a single ":", but not import it into the other package?
2015-01-04T16:31:19Z nyef: flip214: Yes. Don't :USE the package.
2015-01-04T16:31:30Z pjb: Yes, :USE the package!
2015-01-04T16:31:30Z stassats: but use doesn't import
2015-01-04T16:31:36Z flip214: I'd like to use a slot "ID" in a package and make accesors accessible as PACKAGE:ID
2015-01-04T16:31:37Z pjb: :using it doesn't :import it!
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2015-01-04T16:32:05Z flip214: but not override ID slots and/or methods in other packages...
2015-01-04T16:32:07Z nyef: Right, I'll let you lot wrangle over that, then. I need to head out.
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2015-01-04T16:32:26Z pjb: Also, you can use and import all you want, you can always write p:s
2015-01-04T16:33:16Z flip214: pjb: if the symbol isn't exported, I need p::s - and that I'd like to avoid.
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2015-01-04T16:33:41Z Grue`: then export it
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2015-01-04T16:34:13Z pjb: So: (defpackage "C" (:export "ID" "M"))  (defpackage "U" (:import-from "C" "M")) (in-package "U") (defmethod m (o) (c:id o))
2015-01-04T16:34:16Z flip214: yeah, but that means other packages :USEing p would automatically override their s, too!
2015-01-04T16:34:17Z stassats: don't use, don't import, if you use, do shadow it
2015-01-04T16:34:48Z pjb: ie. import-from the other symbols, but the ones you want to be able to access only by qualifying them.
2015-01-04T16:34:50Z flip214: stassats: that's one way, but I'd like to not burden the users.
2015-01-04T16:35:06Z stassats: there's no other way
2015-01-04T16:35:07Z Grue`: flip214: it's no big deal if other packages use slot name from that package though
2015-01-04T16:35:08Z flip214: pjb: good idea, a kind of shadow package. thanks.
2015-01-04T16:35:36Z pjb: Perhaps (defpackage "U" (:use "C") (:shadow "ID")) (in-package "U
2015-01-04T16:35:39Z flip214: Grue`: it might be, if they use one of the classes in there as base classes - then the slots might collide.
2015-01-04T16:35:51Z pjb: ") (define-my-own id) ; is more what you want.
2015-01-04T16:36:18Z Grue`: having two id slots from different packages would also be quite confusing
2015-01-04T16:36:29Z pjb: Not if they are a:id and b:id.
2015-01-04T16:36:48Z pjb: as in: client:id  part:id
2015-01-04T16:36:59Z stassats: with :id as the initarg
2015-01-04T16:37:18Z flip214: I'm about to use 'p:s as initarg for that reason.
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2015-01-04T16:38:15Z pjb: (defclass s (client part) ((client:id :initarg :client-id) (part:id :initarg :part-id)))
2015-01-04T16:38:28Z pjb: (make-instance 's :client-id 1 :part-id "x92")
2015-01-04T16:38:31Z Grue`: if something has an ID, i would assume it uniquely identifies it; so having two IDs is superfluous
2015-01-04T16:38:47Z pjb: Grue`: you've never worked for real users.
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2015-01-04T16:40:34Z flip214: Grue`: never seen a table with some auto-increment column and a unique multi-key index for the "business primary key"?
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2015-01-04T16:41:15Z stassats: ever been in a turkish prison?
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2015-01-04T16:41:36Z Grue`: they don't have to be all called ID, it's a two-letter variable name, you only use it when it's really obvious what it does
2015-01-04T16:42:02Z stassats: EyeDee
2015-01-04T16:42:04Z pjb: the thing is that client:id and part:id are (may be) different symbols.
2015-01-04T16:42:43Z pjb: Whether the symbol is named "ID" or "CLIENT-ID" is irrelevant.
2015-01-04T16:43:53Z flip214: stassats: either you're quite happy (or sarcastic) right now, or I don't understand your prison sentence.
2015-01-04T16:44:29Z stassats: flip214: have you seen a grown man naked?
2015-01-04T16:45:15Z Grue`: client:id and part:id on the same object sounds like something that would happen if a SQL programmer was writing in CL
2015-01-04T16:45:18Z flip214: hmmm, am I in the wrong channel here, or did it mutate to #ZEN-questions this year?
2015-01-04T16:45:51Z Grue`: practical common lisp is SO last decade
2015-01-04T16:46:45Z flip214: stassats: yes, but will I want to have refused the answer?
2015-01-04T16:46:56Z flip214: Grue`: right, CL21 for the win!
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2015-01-04T16:55:17Z dandersen proposes a new standard wherein the only change is the date
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2015-01-04T17:04:04Z flip214: dandersen: I'm not sure whether such important changes would come easily.
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2015-01-04T18:04:18Z butyoudonot: Grue`: oh, sorry, I meant to a list with digits. Like, 123 -> '(1 2 3)
2015-01-04T18:05:18Z stassats: butyoudonot: divide by the base repeatedly
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2015-01-04T18:07:13Z mrkkrp: Is it part of the standard in which package by default all code is contained? I saw 'cl:defpackage' on the first line of one library, so I'm wondering why didn't the author of the library use plain 'defpackage'.
2015-01-04T18:07:35Z butyoudonot: stassats: here what I've tried http://paste.lisp.org/display/145075
2015-01-04T18:08:23Z stassats: don't use recursion
2015-01-04T18:08:41Z butyoudonot: why?
2015-01-04T18:08:45Z stassats: and your LET had a stroke
2015-01-04T18:08:57Z stassats: butyoudonot: the question should be "why use recursion"
2015-01-04T18:08:59Z stassats: not the reverse
2015-01-04T18:09:06Z butyoudonot: why?
2015-01-04T18:09:20Z stassats: you should answer it, you did
2015-01-04T18:09:48Z butyoudonot: I mean, why non-recursion is a default approach? How you've decided that?
2015-01-04T18:09:59Z Grue`: mrkkrp: usually it's (in-package :cl) (defpackage ...); the starting package depends on how the file is loaded
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2015-01-04T18:10:15Z stassats: butyoudonot: because there's no reason to employ recursion
2015-01-04T18:10:43Z hitecnologys: butyoudonot: recursion is more resource-consuming.
2015-01-04T18:10:54Z mrkkrp: Grue`, then (cl:defpackage :foo) (cl:in-package #:foo) should work just as well
2015-01-04T18:11:06Z Grue`: mrkkrp: but that's ugly
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2015-01-04T18:11:57Z mrkkrp: Grue`, it's interesting! why 'cl:' prefix is ugly and whole extra line is not ugly? :D
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2015-01-04T18:12:24Z stassats: (in-package :cl) is totally wrong
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2015-01-04T18:12:35Z stassats: or bad, never do that
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2015-01-04T18:13:27Z Grue`: oh right, i probably meant cl-user
2015-01-04T18:13:48Z mrkkrp: as far as I know it's difficult to define something new in :cl
2015-01-04T18:13:49Z stassats: mrkkrp: almost nobody writes cl:defpackage
2015-01-04T18:14:49Z mrkkrp: stassats, perphas so, but my original question is rather why would one want to write cl:defpackage in the first place
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2015-01-04T18:14:56Z Grue`: then again, its not guaranteed that defpackage in cl-user is the same as in cl
2015-01-04T18:15:13Z stassats: mrkkrp: no real reason
2015-01-04T18:15:36Z stassats: some people put -*- base: 10 -*- to this day
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2015-01-04T18:16:12Z Grue`: maybe cl:defpackage is the most correct way after all...
2015-01-04T18:16:52Z stassats: correct for what?
2015-01-04T18:16:55Z mrkkrp: stassats, Grue` said that 'the  starting package depends on how the file is loaded
2015-01-04T18:16:57Z mrkkrp: '
2015-01-04T18:17:34Z Bicyclidine: ah, but what if i've defined a reader macro on #\c! all your efforts are for naught
2015-01-04T18:17:36Z stassats: so does readtable
2015-01-04T18:18:54Z stassats: Bicyclidine: that can be circumvented, not so with a reader macro on #\(
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2015-01-04T18:21:09Z Grue`: apparently a lot of libraries will break if I (shadow 'defpackage) in CL-USER
2015-01-04T18:26:11Z mrkkrp: there are many ways how to break libraries
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2015-01-04T18:43:53Z mrkkrp: what does quickproject do exactly to add a project directory to asdf configuration?
2015-01-04T18:46:14Z Grue`: I think it just puts it into quicklisp's local-projects directory by default, which is scanned by asdf
2015-01-04T18:47:42Z mrkkrp: Grue`, do you mean it moves the directory itself??
2015-01-04T18:48:45Z Bicyclidine: well, let's check the ol' source https://github.com/xach/quickproject/blob/master/quickproject.lisp#L175-176
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2015-01-04T18:50:34Z Grue`: hmm, looks like it actually adds it to *central-registry* but it's useless since it'll just get reset on restart anyway
2015-01-04T18:50:40Z pjb: mrkkrp: it is not conforming to evaluate different defpackage forms on the same package.
2015-01-04T18:51:13Z pjb: mrkkrp: therefore it is perfectly expected that some program or library provides its own defpackage macro, with a conforming behavior in such a common circumstance.
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2015-01-04T18:51:52Z pjb: mrkkrp: therefore it is perfectly understandable that some code may want to use cl:defpackage instead of whatever defpackage macro is provided by the current program or library.
2015-01-04T18:53:26Z pjb: And this is the magic of Common Lisp (vs. eg. scheme or emacs lisp), that unqualified symbols are interned with respect to the current *package*, and that therefore a symbol such as CAR, + or DEFPACKAGE is very not necessarily CL:CAR, CL:+ or CL:DEFPACKAGE.
2015-01-04T18:54:00Z pjb: This allows you to load a file with lisp code with different definition for symbols named the same as standard symbols.
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2015-01-04T18:54:58Z pjb: I would even argue that it would be good not to put in-package forms in source files, but instead to set the current *package* in the code that load them (but this wouldn't be convenient in the current asdf set up).
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2015-01-04T18:56:19Z pjb: Perhaps we should add a :package option to asdf:defsystem, to be used as the package to be bound to *package* when loading or compiling the system.
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2015-01-04T19:13:43Z Zamenhof: anyone know of the top of their head, which open source CL compilers permit TCO?
2015-01-04T19:14:12Z AeroNotix: Zamenhof: SBCL, CLISP sometimes afaikr
2015-01-04T19:14:22Z Bicyclidine: Zamenhof: kind of old, but http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html
2015-01-04T19:14:59Z Zamenhof: Bicyclidine: Thanks!
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2015-01-04T19:17:23Z dandersen: Zamenhof: CCL, too
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2015-01-04T19:19:50Z Zamenhof: CCL is what I typically hack on.  I wasn't sure if this was a default, or a compiler optimization I needed to enable.
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2015-01-04T19:20:50Z Bicyclidine: according to that page and the linked wiki page, it has tco for debug < 3.
2015-01-04T19:21:23Z Zamenhof: I'm surprised I never came across that page.  But it is very helpful to me.  Thx again.
2015-01-04T19:21:31Z dandersen: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1jd7tl/tail_call_optimisation_in_common_lisp/
2015-01-04T19:21:48Z dandersen: I'm surprised I'm linking to reddit, but there are specific CCL-related examples there
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2015-01-04T19:22:59Z Zamenhof: that's helpful too.
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2015-01-04T19:36:37Z Baggers: Hey folks, i'm trying to get the hang of named-readtables. I set up a readtable as follows (named-readtables:defreadtable fn_lambda (:merge :standard) (:macro-char #\GREEK_SMALL_LETTER_LAMDA #'lambda-reader) (:case :preserve)) in a package called :fn_. Another package :depends on this library and uses (named-readtables:in-readtable fn_::fn_lambda) at the top of the file (just after it's own in-package). The problem
2015-01-04T19:36:38Z Baggers: is that I then use 'C-c C-k' to compile the file and I get hundreds of warning, it doesnt even recognize defun at that point. Seems I don't know where/how to use this. Any tips from anyone?
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2015-01-04T19:47:11Z Baggers: After that I cant even (print "test") from the repl as it says The function my-package::print is undefined.
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2015-01-04T19:47:32Z Baggers: After that I cant even (print "test") from the repl as it says 'The function my-package::print is undefined.'
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2015-01-04T19:52:51Z ehu: Baggers: that's correct.
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2015-01-04T19:53:02Z ehu: Baggers: the symbol's name is "PRINT" not "print"
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2015-01-04T19:59:09Z ehu: Baggers: that's what case preservation does.
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2015-01-04T20:04:30Z Baggers: ehu: hmm then I'll try again
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2015-01-04T20:05:46Z Baggers: ehu: why would case preservation affect symbols totally unrelated to reader macros?
2015-01-04T20:07:03Z ejbs: Baggers: A readtable isn't only about reader macros, see: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/t_rdtabl.htm
2015-01-04T20:07:03Z hitecnologys: Baggers: it affects readtable.
2015-01-04T20:07:46Z pjb: Zamenhof: the problem with TCO in CL, is that it is rather hard to know whether a call is a tail call, and there are a lot of places that would look like they're tail, but they're actually not.
2015-01-04T20:07:47Z Bicyclidine: Baggers: you put :case :preserve
2015-01-04T20:07:59Z pjb: Zamenhof: specifically, because of macros.
2015-01-04T20:08:28Z Baggers: ehu: Bicyclidine: ejbs: hitecnologys: Cheers, I have it working now
2015-01-04T20:09:08Z Baggers: thought I had tried that earlier! but hey I'm just glad it's playing nice
2015-01-04T20:09:25Z Zamenhof: pjb: good point, i realize that now.
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2015-01-04T20:11:02Z Baggers: ejbs: thanks for the link, I'll definitely go through all that
2015-01-04T20:11:20Z ejbs: pjb: Huh? Shouldn't you be fine after macro expansion?
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2015-01-04T20:21:07Z dim: is (member :little-endian *features*) a good way to check?
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2015-01-04T20:22:01Z serichsen: dim: I think that there is a featurep function somewhere in asdf or so.
2015-01-04T20:22:22Z pjb: dim: depends on the implementation.
2015-01-04T20:22:36Z dim: it's more about the portability that I'm worried, works with SBCL already
2015-01-04T20:22:44Z dim: I'm interested into only SBCL and CCL at this point tho
2015-01-04T20:22:50Z pjb: ejbs: sure after macro expansion. What I'm saying is that a lot of calls that you write won't be tail calls anyways.
2015-01-04T20:22:57Z dim: but if I can limit the non-portable code easily I'm all for it
2015-01-04T20:23:02Z dim: pjb: know of a portable test?
2015-01-04T20:23:26Z pjb: Check cliki.net
2015-01-04T20:23:57Z pjb: http://cliki.net/features
2015-01-04T20:24:54Z dim: found http://www.cliki.net/features
2015-01-04T20:24:55Z dim: yeah ok
2015-01-04T20:25:54Z serichsen: It is uiop:featurep
2015-01-04T20:26:02Z serichsen: comes with asdf
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2015-01-04T20:26:40Z dim: yeah but that's not the problem I'm having
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2015-01-04T20:28:31Z serichsen: dim: I thought you were looking for a portable way to check for a feature programmatically.
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2015-01-04T20:29:03Z dim: yeah, no, I'm interested into a way to determine if I'm on a big or little endian setup at runtime
2015-01-04T20:29:19Z dim: but I'm bored to death with that code so I'll switch a movie on now
2015-01-04T20:29:30Z lispm: CCL on my Mac has :LITTLE-ENDIAN-HOST
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2015-01-04T20:32:43Z |3b|: dim: i think trivial-features has things for that
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2015-01-04T20:33:11Z Mandus: pwd
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2015-01-04T20:33:30Z dandersen: ~/common-lisp
2015-01-04T20:33:34Z dandersen: Oh well
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2015-01-04T20:37:46Z dim: |3b|: it does, thanks!
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2015-01-04T20:45:45Z ejbs: pjb: Oh yes, I see. I thought we were talking from the compiler's view point
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2015-01-04T21:03:12Z nyef: Hello all.
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2015-01-04T21:03:46Z ehu: nyef: hi.
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2015-01-04T21:10:45Z Zamenhof: anyone use the Portable Hemlock Emacs clone?  https://gitorious.org/hemlock
2015-01-04T21:10:54Z Zamenhof: looks like it is being actively developed
2015-01-04T21:11:25Z dandersen is now known as dkcl
2015-01-04T21:11:28Z dkcl tried, once
2015-01-04T21:11:39Z nyef: Zamenhof: I tried it recently to no good effect, but that could easily have been problems with my local environment and not knowing what I was doing.
2015-01-04T21:13:15Z Zamenhof: A CL-based emacs would be great; I understand porting the millions of lines of emacs lisp is the challenge, though.
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2015-01-04T21:14:37Z nyef: ... and you just missed the point.
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2015-01-04T21:18:59Z nyef: Aww... I can't (SETF NTH-VALUE)?
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2015-01-04T21:22:24Z |3b| isn't sure where (setf nth-value) would do something useful
2015-01-04T21:22:27Z hitecnologys: nyef: right. It doesn't have SETF-function.
2015-01-04T21:23:26Z nyef: |3b|: I have a symbol-macrolet of some symbol to a VALUES of three variables, and I want to set one of them given the symbol.
2015-01-04T21:23:42Z |3b|: ah
2015-01-04T21:24:45Z nyef: It's one of those cases of something completely and utterly insane on the surface, but having its own twisted logic once you dig into it.
2015-01-04T21:25:18Z |3b|: yeah, had gotten as far as using it on values, but not why you wouldn't have the values individually
2015-01-04T21:25:28Z |3b|: symbol macro makes sense though
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2015-01-04T21:27:48Z nyef: I think I have a simplification for the core logic of what I'm doing, but the control flow is getting rather twisted.
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2015-01-04T21:28:31Z |3b| is playing with GPU, so my control flow is twisted to start with :/
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2015-01-04T21:30:10Z nyef: I'm already using a combination of a macrolet, a symbol-macrolet, and a values place to destructure some data.
2015-01-04T21:30:31Z nyef: Well, to pull data from a list an destructure it.
2015-01-04T21:31:16Z nyef: I think that I might shadow the symbol-macrolet with another one in order to save having to pass the list names around...
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2015-01-04T22:08:15Z arrdem: Playing with implementing a simple stack VM as a lisp target, is there any interesting prior art beyond the Interlisp VM and the MIT machines?
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2015-01-04T22:10:10Z ehu: arrdem: beyond that any self-respecting lisper implemented his own? No.
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2015-01-04T22:24:09Z |3b|: arrdem: did you look at clisp's bytecode?
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2015-01-04T22:26:36Z nydel: can i get the host address of my repl's machine without opening a socket?
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2015-01-04T22:30:47Z nyef: nydel: ifconfig, maybe?
2015-01-04T22:31:20Z arrdem: |3b|: nope. I don't have much of a background in CL. I'll take a look.
2015-01-04T22:31:35Z AeroNotix: nyef: why can't you open a socket?
2015-01-04T22:31:46Z AeroNotix: nyef: cat /etc/hostname ?
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2015-01-04T22:31:53Z |3b|: arrdem: clisp has a cl-specific bytecode interpreter, don't remember if it is stack-based or not, but at least might give you ideas for useful opcodes
2015-01-04T22:32:05Z nyef: AeroNotix: Did you mean "nydel"?
2015-01-04T22:32:10Z arrdem: |3b|: sure that's basically what I'm fishing for at this point.
2015-01-04T22:32:36Z AeroNotix: nyef: yeah
2015-01-04T22:32:43Z AeroNotix: nydel: : why can't you open a socket?
2015-01-04T22:32:48Z AeroNotix: nydel: : cat /etc/hostname ?
2015-01-04T22:32:48Z arrdem: guile has a bytecode vm as well, right?
2015-01-04T22:32:53Z fe[nl]ix: nydel: in general, there's no such thing as a host address
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2015-01-04T23:08:50Z nyef: Hrm. (loop for (start-1 end-1 x-spans-1) = (multiple-value-list span-1) then (multiple-value-list (next-span set-1)) do ...) seems a bit much. /-:
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2015-01-04T23:34:53Z dim: nydel: see ip-interfaces in Quicklisp
2015-01-04T23:35:56Z p_l: arrdem: clisp has stack-oriented bytecoded VM
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2015-01-04T23:37:10Z dim: nydel: (mapcar #'ip-interfaces:ip-interface-address (ip-interfaces:get-ip-interfaces)) gives (#(127 0 0 1) #(192 168 0 10)) here, FWIW
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2015-01-04T23:43:04Z nyef: dim: So, you're behind a NAT router of some sort.
2015-01-04T23:43:49Z p_l: heh, it only gives me 7 IP addresses
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2015-01-04T23:55:23Z nyef: Hrm. With ten tests defined for a set-intersection operation, I get a single success by using the set-union operation.
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2015-01-04T23:57:02Z |3b|: sounds reasonable
2015-01-04T23:57:33Z |3b|: union and intersection are same if sets are same, but probably not otherwise
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2015-01-04T23:58:25Z nyef: No probably about it.
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