2015-01-02T00:00:48Z Bicyclidine: makes sense. 2015-01-02T00:02:08Z davazp joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:02:47Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:02:57Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:03:34Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-02T00:03:55Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:06:20Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:08:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:08:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T00:08:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:08:41Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:13:04Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:13:07Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:13:07Z RenRenJuan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:13:21Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:14:19Z robot-beethoven quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:14:41Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:14:53Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:16:23Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:20:43Z kpreid joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:20:55Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:21:44Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:23:02Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:23:13Z lavokad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T00:23:27Z eumemu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:24:59Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-01-02T00:30:40Z noone` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:37:46Z eumemu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:41:44Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:42:52Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:43:27Z weedgoku quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:43:45Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:44:14Z weedgoku joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:45:59Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:47:44Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:49:28Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:49:36Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-01-02T00:49:54Z moei joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:51:16Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:52:29Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:54:03Z devon joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:54:14Z noone`` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:54:29Z Xach: dlowe: are you likely to make it next week? 2015-01-02T00:54:44Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:57:30Z devon: Folks write (defconstant +foo+) and (defvar *bar*) perhaps there is a similar custom with defstatic in CCL? 2015-01-02T00:58:22Z noone` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T00:58:25Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-02T00:58:44Z rk[ca] is now known as rk[1] 2015-01-02T00:59:15Z noone``` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:02:22Z noone`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:07:44Z _m___ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:10:28Z dagnachew_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T01:10:29Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:13:16Z scymtym joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:20:07Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:26:56Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:29:05Z Levian joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:29:52Z tertl3-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:30:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T01:30:26Z Levian quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T01:30:46Z Vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T01:32:08Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T01:36:01Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T01:37:12Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:38:01Z tertl3-laptop joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:42:14Z enitiz_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:43:36Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:44:58Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:46:45Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T01:49:45Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:51:20Z noone``` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T01:53:23Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:54:22Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T01:56:29Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T01:58:30Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:06:25Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:12:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:12:52Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T02:14:57Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T02:15:17Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-02T02:19:25Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:20:34Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T02:25:15Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:27:12Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:33:31Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T02:33:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:35:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T02:37:59Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:38:23Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-02T02:39:08Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:42:47Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T02:44:24Z zophy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:45:28Z enitiz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T02:48:55Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T02:49:24Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:49:28Z kcj quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T02:49:28Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:49:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-02T02:50:06Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:53:59Z sw2wolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T02:56:10Z exm joined #lisp 2015-01-02T02:57:22Z exm: I'm looking for a predicate along the lines of (subseq-p '(a b c d) '(c d)) => T - google has failed me, any pointers to the right place to look? 2015-01-02T02:57:59Z exm: Namely, given a two lists, true if the first list contains the second in order 2015-01-02T02:59:33Z Bicyclidine: clhs ldiff 2015-01-02T02:59:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldiffc.htm 2015-01-02T02:59:47Z Bicyclidine: ...well, that's close 2015-01-02T03:00:06Z exm: Saw that, looks like it only does tails 2015-01-02T03:00:09Z rme: cl:search, perhaps? 2015-01-02T03:00:27Z Bicyclidine: oh, yeah that'd be it. 2015-01-02T03:02:15Z exm: (tailp '(b c) '(a b c d)) => nil 2015-01-02T03:02:50Z Bicyclidine: search, not tailp. 2015-01-02T03:03:06Z exm: oh, copy 2015-01-02T03:03:30Z exm: Yes, that's it, thanks! 2015-01-02T03:03:53Z Vivitron: exm: I don't think that is included; the list predicates view the elements of the list as a, b, c, with no concept of (a b) and the set predicates don't care about order 2015-01-02T03:04:41Z Vivitron: exm: woops, I was wrong 2015-01-02T03:12:31Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:12:31Z oleo is now known as Guest1719 2015-01-02T03:14:32Z Guest1719 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T03:15:19Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:15:31Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-01-02T03:15:42Z oleo__: tailp is such a whore...... 2015-01-02T03:15:44Z oleo__: lol 2015-01-02T03:15:50Z oleo__: morning beach 2015-01-02T03:16:23Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-01-02T03:19:41Z beach: nyef: I see from the logs that you are making progress. That's great! 2015-01-02T03:20:17Z nyef: I was making progress... and then I found that there were too many missing bits to continue with the second half of my rough plan for the day. 2015-01-02T03:20:36Z beach: Don't let that discourage you. 2015-01-02T03:20:57Z nyef: I'm not so much discouraged as trying to figure out what to tackle next. 2015-01-02T03:21:56Z beach: I know exactly what you mean. That's why I spend half a day doing some programming that I basically know how to do, and half a day thinking about design decisions and making sure I understand the problem. 2015-01-02T03:23:45Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T03:25:15Z beach: Mirrored sheets are messy. That's why I got rid of them in CLIM3/CLIMatis. 2015-01-02T03:25:38Z nyef: But that breaks the adaptive toolkit stuff, doesn't it? 2015-01-02T03:26:07Z beach: Maybe, but I don't care about that for CLIM3/CLIMatis. 2015-01-02T03:26:21Z nyef: Okay, I guess. 2015-01-02T03:26:37Z nyef: I think I still want them for nq-clim, though. 2015-01-02T03:26:57Z beach: If you want to be close to the CLIM II spec, sure. 2015-01-02T03:27:26Z nyef: It's not just that, it's the possibility of closer integration with a host look-and-feel. 2015-01-02T03:27:28Z beach: Did we manage to integrate any existing toolkit into McCLIM? 2015-01-02T03:27:45Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T03:28:32Z nyef: I don't know. I think that someone was working on a Gtk or Qt backend at some point, though. 2015-01-02T03:29:43Z noone` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:36:35Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:37:48Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-02T03:39:02Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:39:17Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2015-01-02T03:40:23Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:44:47Z aftershave quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T03:44:58Z protist joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:47:11Z nisstyre_ is now known as nisstyre 2015-01-02T03:49:59Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-02T03:51:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T03:59:36Z exm quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T04:03:37Z bege_ is now known as bege 2015-01-02T04:04:07Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:04:52Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T04:05:44Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T04:06:18Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-02T04:08:26Z myk267 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:12:53Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:14:07Z joast joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:16:53Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:16:53Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T04:16:53Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:17:14Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all.) 2015-01-02T04:17:24Z lonjil quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2015-01-02T04:17:42Z inkogneato quit (Quit: inkogneato) 2015-01-02T04:18:42Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:21:05Z lonjil joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:24:24Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:24:57Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:25:25Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:26:10Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:30:07Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:37:16Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T04:38:14Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:38:52Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:38:57Z towodo quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T04:41:56Z oudeis joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:43:06Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T04:44:05Z theos quit (Quit: i will be back...nvm) 2015-01-02T04:46:04Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:46:51Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-02T04:49:29Z dandersen1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T04:49:31Z dandersen quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T04:50:54Z dj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:51:22Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T04:53:57Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T04:59:53Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:02:05Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:05:05Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:05:07Z dj joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:07:33Z sismondi joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:09:05Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:14:23Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T05:15:03Z weedgoku quit (Quit: Good night) 2015-01-02T05:16:07Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:21:39Z kirin` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:25:16Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-02T05:28:40Z theos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T05:29:04Z noone` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T05:30:01Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:34:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T05:36:06Z pjb: - 2015-01-02T05:38:08Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-02T05:46:21Z kpreid quit (Quit: kpreid) 2015-01-02T05:47:46Z Zamenhof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T05:51:11Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T05:56:49Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T06:03:17Z thomas quit (Quit: weeee.) 2015-01-02T06:03:18Z kpreid joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:04:45Z thomas joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:10:16Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:15:49Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-02T06:16:30Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:21:24Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T06:25:06Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-02T06:25:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:27:12Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-01-02T06:31:32Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-02T06:31:44Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-02T06:31:52Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:36:11Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:36:29Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-01-02T06:37:05Z atgreen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T06:39:38Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T06:45:57Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-02T06:46:00Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:46:14Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:47:29Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T06:50:14Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T06:50:58Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T06:51:45Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-02T06:53:11Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T06:53:29Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:53:33Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-02T06:56:33Z bambams: Is it normal for lisps to output a lot of junk when starting up? E.g., clisp outputs copyright info. unless you supply --quiet. 2015-01-02T06:56:48Z bambams: It is really noisy, and reminds me more of Microsoft software than open source. 2015-01-02T06:57:08Z bambams: It also makes you look like an idiot if you stupidly /exec -out it into an IRC channel. :-[ 2015-01-02T06:57:32Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T06:57:55Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-02T06:57:57Z akkad: clisp is an exceptional one. slime should cut that down 2015-01-02T07:00:08Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T07:01:00Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:01:08Z bambams: It just seems bug report worthy that it outputs so much junk by default at all. :\ 2015-01-02T07:01:17Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T07:02:13Z bambams: It's all to stdout even. I'm sure nobody is asking lisps for their copyright info. when invoking normally. 2015-01-02T07:02:33Z loke: bambams: Most Lisp developers don't care, since they use SLIME. 2015-01-02T07:02:46Z loke: bambams: With SLIME, you never see the main output from the runtime 2015-01-02T07:04:47Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T07:05:34Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:05:41Z bambams: What if you intend to send the output of a lisp program to e.g., an IRC channel? You filter out the garbage? 2015-01-02T07:06:16Z loke: bambams: You normally don't do that. You send the output of a Lisp function call to the channel. 2015-01-02T07:06:17Z loke: Or 2015-01-02T07:06:36Z loke: If you create a standalone Lisp program, you dump an image. A dumped image will not display the welcome message 2015-01-02T07:07:34Z bambams: I suppose I have much to learn. I often shell out to e.g., Perl to answer simple "queries". For example, maths. 2015-01-02T07:07:35Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:08:15Z bambams: I have been trying to shell out to CL instead to help me learn, and because it seems better suited, but this just seems to conflict with that usage. 2015-01-02T07:08:27Z loke: bambams: Yes. Lisp usually works differently. With Lisp you usally have the image running already, so you just call a function in it. You never (or at least not normally) start a Lisp image just to run a function and then exit. 2015-01-02T07:08:39Z loke: Lisp is more like an operating system in that respect. 2015-01-02T07:08:45Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:09:12Z bambams: As a Vim user I still struggle to make use of Emacs and Slime regularly. :) Something I need to figure out how to work into my routine. 2015-01-02T07:09:15Z loke: It's like the difference between Emacs and vi. You don't normally exit Emacs if you want to take advantage of its features. Vi is mainly started to edit a file and then exited. 2015-01-02T07:09:41Z loke: bambams: There is a vi mode in Emacs that some vi users claim is better than the real thing. 2015-01-02T07:09:49Z loke: I've never tried it though 2015-01-02T07:12:09Z bambams: I was aware of vi-like modes, but I haven't been able to start them. I believe most documentation steers you away from them because it's not the [True Way] and some things might not work properly. 2015-01-02T07:13:07Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:13:09Z loke: bambams: Well, I would also steer away from it, because I prefer the OTW. But then again, I've read far too many tesimonies from Vim people who say they love it that I just can't ignore that. 2015-01-02T07:13:40Z loke: There is apparently some easy way to switch to emacs input when using it, so that you can still use all Emacs mappings 2015-01-02T07:14:07Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:14:40Z bambams: I'll have to try to figure it out. :) 2015-01-02T07:15:06Z bambams: In the meantime, I'm lucky it was a quiet channel or my behind would be red. :) 2015-01-02T07:16:27Z loke: Just trying it out now 2015-01-02T07:16:35Z loke: to me (novice vi user) it works exactly like vi 2015-01-02T07:17:31Z bambams: Well vi and Vim are quite distant as well. I don't think too many people would prefer a raw vi over something like Emacs. Vi is fine for a quick edit, but it lacks many features. 2015-01-02T07:18:01Z loke: I know there are many vim features implemented too. What features are in vim that are not in vi? 2015-01-02T07:19:19Z stassats: off-topic alert 2015-01-02T07:19:28Z loke: You probably want to use Evil: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/Evil 2015-01-02T07:20:48Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T07:21:02Z bambams wonders if slime blurs the lines of topics sufficiently, but is too drunk^Wtired to put up a fight. 2015-01-02T07:21:05Z sw2wolf joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:21:28Z loke: well, most Lisp users are Emacs users :-) 2015-01-02T07:21:31Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:21:33Z stassats: differences between vim and vi are not welcome 2015-01-02T07:21:41Z loke: Unless they use LW which is said to have a decent built-in environment 2015-01-02T07:23:39Z sw2wolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T07:24:06Z sw2wolf joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:24:44Z sw2wolf left #lisp 2015-01-02T07:25:45Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:26:25Z bambams: H 2015-01-02T07:27:53Z pjb: bambams: you could report it a bug, to issue such verbose banners on a pipe. On an interactive terminal, it would be acceptable. It could detect whether it's connected to a terminal or a pipe/socket, and behave accordingly. 2015-01-02T07:29:30Z pjb: bambams: You may also have: alias clisp='clisp -ansi -q' in your .bashrc 2015-01-02T07:33:08Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-02T07:40:49Z drl joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:41:48Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:42:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:44:09Z gko_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:48:23Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-02T07:52:05Z rurumate quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T07:52:08Z otwieracz: evil is awesome 2015-01-02T07:52:13Z otwieracz: really 2015-01-02T07:52:14Z otwieracz: :) 2015-01-02T08:02:05Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:05:43Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:06:55Z huza joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:07:32Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T08:08:23Z psy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:09:45Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:17:44Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:21:04Z spacebat quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-02T08:22:47Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:23:55Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:24:47Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:25:37Z psy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:27:07Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-01-02T08:30:12Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:37:44Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:41:35Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:42:50Z psy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:42:59Z Grue`: woah, I like how SBCL binary availability has improved lately, almost every supported platform is at the latest version 2015-01-02T08:43:55Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:45:50Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:46:20Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:46:45Z jesusito joined #lisp 2015-01-02T08:50:39Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:53:34Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T08:57:35Z InvalidCo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:00:48Z aftershave joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:02:33Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:03:22Z rurumate quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:04:52Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:06:10Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:06:49Z jesusito quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T09:07:15Z jesusito joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:07:47Z InvalidCo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:11:06Z mrkkrp joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:11:08Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:13:22Z loke: Grue`: what platform are you using? 2015-01-02T09:13:23Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:13:49Z jesusito quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T09:16:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T09:18:07Z jesusito joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:20:27Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-02T09:22:30Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:23:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:26:25Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:30:40Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:31:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:33:24Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:40:02Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:40:38Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-02T09:42:18Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T09:44:59Z klltkr joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:45:34Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:49:02Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:49:27Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:53:22Z psy quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-02T09:55:33Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:55:56Z gko_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-02T09:56:54Z psy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T09:57:50Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T09:59:04Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-02T10:01:24Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:02:11Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:06:16Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:06:45Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:11:41Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:12:17Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:12:47Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:14:02Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:16:21Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:17:42Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:18:45Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:19:48Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:20:06Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:20:17Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:22:21Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:24:59Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:25:30Z ehu quit 2015-01-02T10:25:50Z egp_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:26:15Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:26:18Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:26:34Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:30:42Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:33:38Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:34:09Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:35:08Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:35:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:36:51Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:37:33Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-02T10:40:17Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:40:20Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:42:38Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:45:38Z rtra joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:46:30Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:46:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:47:10Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:47:50Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:48:33Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:48:53Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:49:46Z johs joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:51:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:52:13Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T10:52:22Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:53:14Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:56:29Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T10:56:31Z lavokad joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:57:46Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-02T10:58:13Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:00:20Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:01:51Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:03:26Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:04:23Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:05:32Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:05:57Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:07:17Z sismondi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:07:47Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:08:08Z sismondi joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:10:02Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:10:41Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:13:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:16:37Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:16:53Z impulse- quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-02T11:17:04Z impulse joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:17:47Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:17:52Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:23:01Z ehu_ quit 2015-01-02T11:24:49Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:28:33Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:29:43Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:29:47Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T11:33:09Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:43:28Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:49:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:49:45Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:50:05Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T11:53:51Z Longlius joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:54:55Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:56:52Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T11:58:19Z lavokad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T11:59:18Z oudeis joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:01:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T12:04:09Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:04:56Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:05:54Z lispm joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:07:14Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:09:38Z mrkkrp: I can't understand, cffi manual says that about 'foreign-alloc' that its result must be explicitely freed with 'foreign-free'. So what if I need to allocate memory that I don't need to free - C library will do it for me. Is there any difference between foreign-free and how C library will do it? Even more confusion gives me 'foreign-string-alloc', manual says that memory allocated by this function must be free 2015-01-02T12:09:44Z mrkkrp: d with 'foreign-string-free', so why do we have two different versions of 'free'? 2015-01-02T12:10:47Z mrkkrp: currently I need to allocate null-terminated vector of pointers to C strings. The vector itself and every string will be freed by C library. Is using 'foreign-string-alloc' is a good idea here? 2015-01-02T12:11:01Z fe[nl]ix: foreign-alloc is a wrapper for the CL implementation's foreign memory allocator 2015-01-02T12:11:24Z fe[nl]ix: and that does not necessarily use the C heap, i.e. malloc() 2015-01-02T12:11:53Z fe[nl]ix: so if you allocate some memory on the CL side, you're not guaranteed that some C library can free it 2015-01-02T12:12:38Z Zhivago: More fundamentally, it allocates memory that doesn't get moved by gc, but is still essentially under lisp administration. 2015-01-02T12:12:40Z fe[nl]ix: foreign-string-alloc is just a helper, you can use foreign-alloc for everything, if you want 2015-01-02T12:12:41Z mrkkrp: ok, let's check one more thing: if some C function allocates memory, will 'foreign-free' free it? 2015-01-02T12:12:51Z fe[nl]ix: not necessarily 2015-01-02T12:13:20Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T12:13:21Z Zhivago: I would not expect it to, except by accident. 2015-01-02T12:13:42Z fe[nl]ix: SBCL's FFI defers to malloc/free 2015-01-02T12:13:58Z mrkkrp: so... I should (foreign-funcall "free" :pointer ptr :void) to free memory allocated by C function? 2015-01-02T12:14:02Z fe[nl]ix: but Allegro has a rather sophisticated custom allocator 2015-01-02T12:14:09Z fe[nl]ix: mrkkrp: yes 2015-01-02T12:14:35Z mrkkrp: how to allocate memory so that C library will be able to free it? 2015-01-02T12:14:37Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T12:14:50Z Zhivago: As C does ... 2015-01-02T12:14:56Z fe[nl]ix: call malloc() explicitly 2015-01-02T12:15:14Z mrkkrp: yeah.. it's obvious. 2015-01-02T12:15:57Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-02T12:16:38Z stassats: so, why doesn't cffi provide easier access to malloc? 2015-01-02T12:17:34Z fe[nl]ix: nobody ever asked for it 2015-01-02T12:18:47Z stassats: maybe people just do not know the difference between foreign-alloc and malloc and it just works most of the time? 2015-01-02T12:19:44Z fe[nl]ix: quite probably 2015-01-02T12:20:23Z stassats: memory allocated with mmap can't be freed()? 2015-01-02T12:20:27Z Zhivago: Because it's about two lines to define a malloc function? 2015-01-02T12:20:57Z Zhivago: free is only used with malloc and friends. 2015-01-02T12:21:17Z Zhivago: mmap has munmap. 2015-01-02T12:21:36Z stassats: so, an implementation may use mmap for foreign-alloc and you're screwed 2015-01-02T12:21:43Z mrkkrp: why not to use funcalls to "malloc" and "free" everywhere? there will be no difference in who allocated the memory and who can free it 2015-01-02T12:22:05Z Zhivago: There may be differences. 2015-01-02T12:23:13Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T12:23:57Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:25:30Z Xach: brucem: 2014.1? 2015-01-02T12:25:56Z H4ns: close call! 2015-01-02T12:27:16Z lispm: they could have waited three days to make it 2015.1 2015-01-02T12:27:43Z H4ns: then they'd fail their 2014 new years resolution :) 2015-01-02T12:28:49Z pi- joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:29:43Z huza joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:36:09Z Grue`: going to try caveman2 for my next web app 2015-01-02T12:36:15Z Grue`: it's going to be a wild ride 2015-01-02T12:36:30Z psy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T12:36:58Z jesusito quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T12:36:59Z stassats: i'll call my next framework "neanderthal" 2015-01-02T12:37:16Z Xach: bah. wild would be qooxlisp. 2015-01-02T12:37:17Z PaleFire quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-02T12:37:39Z knobo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:38:14Z psy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:38:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: lifeform experiment terminated by perpetual explosion) 2015-01-02T12:38:45Z Zhivago: Attack of the @ signs. 2015-01-02T12:43:21Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T12:44:05Z pi-: Can anyone recommend a weblink that succinctly introduces the basic LISP syntax without getting caught up in installing it etc? Something equivalent to the Python tutorial maybe? 2015-01-02T12:44:45Z pi-: I'm having to take an RSI break, so I figured I would read up on LISP and see what I've been missing out on.. 2015-01-02T12:45:05Z Xach: pi-: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html 2015-01-02T12:45:19Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:47:49Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T12:47:57Z Grue`: granted, that's not as succint as it could be 2015-01-02T12:48:42Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-01-02T12:51:11Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:51:45Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T12:54:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:55:07Z atgreen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:55:07Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-02T12:55:25Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:55:52Z Quadrescence quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T12:57:55Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-02T12:59:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:00:08Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:05:22Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:09:35Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-02T13:10:33Z H4ns: the basic lisp syntax is not worth teaching in isolation because it is so simple - s-expressions, and a bunch of rules for literals. there is a lot of complexity waiting to be learned in the reader, though, and the semantics of the language is not defined by the syntax, but by the evaluation rules, special operators and standard library functions and macros. 2015-01-02T13:10:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:11:29Z H4ns: that is one reason why lisp is hard to approach: you cannot learn "the basic syntactic rules" and expect to have gained significant knowledge of lisp. 2015-01-02T13:12:43Z chen_traveler joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:12:56Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:13:21Z pi-: The Wikipedia page is really good, I should've tried that first. 2015-01-02T13:14:26Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T13:14:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:15:50Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:15:51Z lispm: you can train your visual perception of parentheses with this book: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 2015-01-02T13:16:02Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:17:00Z chen_traveler quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T13:18:06Z pi-: Can anyone give a minimum example of something that you can do nicely in LISP but not in Python? 2015-01-02T13:18:31Z Xach: Typical Common Lisp implementations comple to native code. They're also typically written in Common Lisp. 2015-01-02T13:18:37Z Zhivago: It depends on your metric for niceness. 2015-01-02T13:18:46Z jackdaniel: create with-something-whatever macro 2015-01-02T13:18:57Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:19:07Z Xach: It's nicer to write a Common Lisp compiler in Common Lisp than in Python. 2015-01-02T13:19:26Z chen_traveler joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:19:26Z Zhivago: Generic functions with multiple dispatch is something python does poorly. 2015-01-02T13:19:49Z p_l: multithreading is something most CL implementations do better 2015-01-02T13:20:17Z p_l: (yeah, I know, low hit ;)) 2015-01-02T13:20:17Z Zhivago: Not that it is part of the language. 2015-01-02T13:20:26Z Grue`: pi-: (lambda () (print "abcd")) ;) 2015-01-02T13:20:44Z Shinmera: Python has limited lambdas. 2015-01-02T13:20:58Z chen_traveler quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2015-01-02T13:21:11Z Grue`: and they can't have statements in them like print (in python 2 at least) 2015-01-02T13:21:14Z Zhivago: Rational arithmetic, conditions and signals, macros. 2015-01-02T13:21:33Z Shinmera: Ah, I thought they could. Ah well, been more than a year since I've used it last. 2015-01-02T13:21:55Z otwieracz: pi-: Python does not smell as funny as CL 2015-01-02T13:22:05Z jackdaniel: im wondering, if it wouldn't be nicer to write python compiler also 2015-01-02T13:22:08Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:22:41Z Zhivago: See pypy. 2015-01-02T13:23:05Z H4ns: i find python to smell quite funny, actually 2015-01-02T13:23:19Z H4ns: so funny that i'd rather not have its smell here :D 2015-01-02T13:23:36Z pi-: jackdaniel: Actually it's nice that Python spits out bytecode. Because you can implement your own VM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f534_5H1md8) 2015-01-02T13:24:11Z pi-: Is it practical to embed LISP in a C++ app 2015-01-02T13:24:53Z H4ns: pi-: it is practical, but you'll have to use a C API to talk to the lisp, and you can't expect exceptions to work properly. 2015-01-02T13:24:59Z pi-: (specifically a multi-platform one, i.e. platform independent) 2015-01-02T13:25:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:25:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T13:25:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:25:44Z H4ns: pi-: common lisp is not especially friendly towards being embedded, though. scheme may be more practical. 2015-01-02T13:25:54Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:26:15Z pi-: H4ns: mmk, I've recently been embedding Python in C++, and exceptions were one of the main difficulties. Surmountable, but only with some ugly C++ code. 2015-01-02T13:27:57Z H4ns: pi-: that won't be much better with cl. there is an experimental cl implementation that focuses on c++ interoperability (clasp). it is not widely used and _rather_ experimental at this point in time, though. 2015-01-02T13:29:18Z mrkkrp: pi-, it's difficult to write not ugly c++ code 2015-01-02T13:29:37Z H4ns: mrkkrp: it is difficult to write not ugly code in any language. 2015-01-02T13:31:14Z mrkkrp: H4ns, difficult to argue, but in some languages it's at least acheivable 2015-01-02T13:31:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:31:55Z _5kg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:33:48Z pi-: c++ does allow for some very pretty coding though, but also allows for incredibly ugly hackery. And I reckon only a very small fraction of its user-base have mastered it. 2015-01-02T13:34:06Z H4ns: right. and there are lots of places where it can be discussed. 2015-01-02T13:34:31Z jackdaniel: i find programming in c++ somehow like chess game against language 2015-01-02T13:34:35Z H4ns: these places are also good places to vent your hatred for the language if you feel like it. 2015-01-02T13:35:18Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:36:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:36:45Z chu quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-02T13:36:59Z p_l: pi-: from CL programmer pov, the main issue with C++ is that it really, really doesn't go well for interoperation, unless you have benefit of things like COM 2015-01-02T13:37:17Z chu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:38:37Z chu quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T13:39:01Z chu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:39:10Z pi-: http://hastebin.com/fizuyesoga.pas <-- that was my original question on one of the C++ channels, and someone suggested I look into LISP 2015-01-02T13:39:19Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:39:45Z H4ns: the link does not work for me 2015-01-02T13:39:51Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:40:09Z pi-: https://gist.github.com/p-i-/ed5d8d2b896b737426d4 2015-01-02T13:41:05Z H4ns: pi-: common lisp has the kind of metaprogramming that c++ templates provide by accident 2015-01-02T13:41:20Z jackdaniel: pi-: in python there is something like with-open-file construct, right? 2015-01-02T13:41:24Z normanrichards quit 2015-01-02T13:41:31Z nyef: G'morning all. 2015-01-02T13:41:32Z minion: nyef, memo from pjb: I'd argue that it'd be better to learn CL first and emacs lisp then, because I find that CLers write better elisp code… I think you can find some of the worst lisp code written in emacs lisp… 2015-01-02T13:41:32Z H4ns: pi-: but i'd recommend that you let loose of c++ when you explore cl, it will be a much better experience. 2015-01-02T13:41:35Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:41:35Z jackdaniel: in lisp you can implement such construct all by yourself 2015-01-02T13:41:42Z Zhivago: Well, templates do integrate with the type system ... 2015-01-02T13:42:15Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T13:42:28Z H4ns: Zhivago: certainly so - and the initial motivation for their existence was rooted in the type system. we needed type-safe container classes. 2015-01-02T13:43:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:43:31Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-02T13:43:43Z huza joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:44:07Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T13:44:52Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T13:45:08Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:45:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:45:45Z Xach: Hmm, it looks like some (all?) of fare's git repos on common-lisp.net have reverted to older versions. 2015-01-02T13:45:53Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:46:20Z Xach: git://common-lisp.net/users/frideau/exscribe.git for example is 8 commits behind a checkout i did some time ago 2015-01-02T13:46:35Z Xach: I wonder if it's related to common-lisp.net migration 2015-01-02T13:50:47Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T13:51:55Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T13:51:57Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:52:09Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:53:31Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T13:53:37Z specbot joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:54:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:56:13Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T13:56:15Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-01-02T13:58:46Z xificurC joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:00:21Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:00:26Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:02:21Z Xach wonders about other clnet repos 2015-01-02T14:07:49Z davazp joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:08:03Z pjb: H4ns: embedding CL in C++ is trivial: just fucking use libecl.so! 2015-01-02T14:08:13Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:10:13Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:11:19Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:13:28Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2015-01-02T14:13:30Z MutSbeta joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:14:06Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:14:56Z inkogneato quit (Quit: inkogneato) 2015-01-02T14:19:21Z rurumate quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:19:49Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:20:34Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:20:37Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:21:53Z kirin` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:24:02Z hekmek quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-02T14:26:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:26:49Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:27:16Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T14:27:31Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:31:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:32:55Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:35:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T14:40:46Z enitiz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T14:40:57Z theos: write embedded CL in CL 2015-01-02T14:41:34Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:42:27Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-02T14:42:27Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-02T14:48:37Z zyaku joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:48:56Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:57:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-02T14:59:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:03:13Z mrkkrp left #lisp 2015-01-02T15:06:57Z mrkkrp joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:09:11Z bimanakvad joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:11:13Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:12:35Z nyef: I think I figured out the point behind SHEET-MUTE-OUTPUT-MIXIN: It's for LAYOUT sheets and possibly for the frame-toplevel-sheet. 2015-01-02T15:14:13Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T15:15:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:18:37Z nyef: ... there seems to be a number of cases in CLIM II where something seems really odd at first glance, on the level of "why would they want that?", but which make a certain amount of sense once you realize how things start to fit together. 2015-01-02T15:18:47Z nyef: s/seems/seem/ 2015-01-02T15:20:44Z pjb: (incf theos) ;-) 2015-01-02T15:21:56Z brucem: nyef: agreed ... I've noticed that in DUIM as well ... although in some cases, it looks like some of the complexity is for long-dead things. :) 2015-01-02T15:22:22Z nyef: That's also a plausibility. 2015-01-02T15:23:00Z nyef: Here's one: Why are there separate mixins for a sheet having no children, having a single child, and having multiple children? 2015-01-02T15:23:31Z pjb: So you may dispatch different methods? 2015-01-02T15:23:52Z nyef: Answer: It's an expression of intent, and a guarantee that certain assumptions can be made and will not be broken. 2015-01-02T15:25:26Z brucem: nyef: You probably also ahve things like single-child-wrapping-pane? 2015-01-02T15:25:27Z pjb: an "ontology". 2015-01-02T15:25:51Z nyef: brucem: That one is unfamiliar to me. 2015-01-02T15:28:23Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:32:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:33:21Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-01-02T15:33:46Z gko joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:34:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:35:20Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T15:40:00Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:42:38Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:42:58Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:49:25Z stacksmith quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:49:31Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-02T15:49:59Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:54:17Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T15:54:34Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:55:10Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:56:08Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-02T15:56:27Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T15:56:55Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T15:59:06Z wglb joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:00:16Z stacksmith joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:06:02Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:10:25Z jesusito joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:11:00Z exm joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:11:11Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T16:11:32Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-02T16:17:32Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:17:36Z yenda joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:18:23Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:18:24Z normanrichards quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T16:19:15Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:20:10Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:23:40Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:26:53Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:26:59Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-01-02T16:27:18Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:27:31Z mrkkrp: good evening 2015-01-02T16:29:18Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-02T16:32:12Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:32:44Z exm quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:32:59Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-01-02T16:33:12Z nyef is sorting out some of the fundamental sheet protocols. 2015-01-02T16:33:42Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:33:55Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:34:03Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:34:04Z normanrichards quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T16:35:35Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:36:33Z beach: nyef: I have started doing that too. Especially the input. I read it many years ago, but a lot of it didn't make sense at the time. Now I understand a lot more when I read it. 2015-01-02T16:37:04Z nyef: I just did sheet-grafted-p and the limit case of sheet-viewable-p. 2015-01-02T16:37:18Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:37:24Z nyef: Next might be the notification stuff for adopted/disowned and grafted/degrafted. 2015-01-02T16:38:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:41:08Z _5kg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:41:21Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:42:40Z mrkkrp: beach, nyef, can I ask out of curiosity what are you creating? 2015-01-02T16:43:08Z beach: mrkkrp: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html 2015-01-02T16:43:38Z nyef: beach: You have a local copy of that, for when the site is unavailable, right? 2015-01-02T16:43:56Z beach: I do, but no annotations possible. 2015-01-02T16:44:02Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:44:08Z beach: mrkkrp: CLIM II is an existing specification. nyef, myself and many others wrote an implementation called McCLIM some 10 years ago. 2015-01-02T16:44:19Z nyef: I did very, very little with McCLIM. 2015-01-02T16:44:38Z beach: mrkkrp: McCLIM is great, but it has some bugs and some performance problems. 2015-01-02T16:44:51Z nyef: ... and is LGPL or LLGPL, IIRC. 2015-01-02T16:45:06Z beach: Yes, something like that. 2015-01-02T16:45:27Z beach: mrkkrp: Also, the CLIM II specification has problems as well. 2015-01-02T16:46:22Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:46:22Z beach: mrkkrp: So we are both (in different ways) trying to improve the situations. Me by (slowly) improving McCLIM, nyef by re-implementing the sane parts of the spec, and me by writing CLIM3/CLIMatis a new spec and a new implementation. 2015-01-02T16:46:24Z nyef: Bloody overblown high-school geometry system used for both window layout AND graphics rendering. /-: 2015-01-02T16:46:27Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T16:47:02Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:47:02Z beach: nyef: Yes, but I can't see having non-rectangular mirrored sheets. 2015-01-02T16:47:02Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T16:47:02Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:47:03Z octophore joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:47:17Z nyef: beach: That reminds me, last night I was thinking about drawing ellipses, and how X only provides for axis-aligned ellipses. 2015-01-02T16:47:31Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:47:39Z beach: Really? 2015-01-02T16:47:56Z nyef: Yeah, it's not that uncommon a limitation. 2015-01-02T16:48:14Z nyef: MS Windows has the same limitation. 2015-01-02T16:48:23Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:48:34Z dagnachew quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T16:49:03Z beach: So how does McCLIM draw arbitrary ellipses? 2015-01-02T16:49:25Z beach: Rendering to polygons perhaps. 2015-01-02T16:49:32Z nyef: But it occurred to me that a non-axis-aligned ellipse might be approximated by a series of axis-aligned elliptical arcs. 2015-01-02T16:49:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:50:01Z nyef: Polygons is another plausible approximation, and one which wouldn't have the same kind of issues with line end caps for elliptical arc segments. 2015-01-02T16:50:10Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:50:15Z beach: Right. 2015-01-02T16:50:40Z Puffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:50:50Z beach: In my opinion, it is probably best to create a primitive for drawing cubic Bezier splines, and then approximate everything else with those. 2015-01-02T16:51:05Z zn joined #lisp 2015-01-02T16:51:06Z beach: Because those are needed anyway for rendering glyphs etc. 2015-01-02T16:51:08Z nyef: Yeah, but you're big on the client-side rendering. 2015-01-02T16:51:28Z nyef: I'm still looking for host L&F integration. 2015-01-02T16:51:30Z beach: I would rather not, but I have no choice. 2015-01-02T16:52:11Z nyef: So I'm possibly going to have to work out the math to see if composing axis-aligned elliptical arcs would work to create a non-axis-aligned ellipse mathematically, and then to see if the line end caps thing will screw it over anyway. 2015-01-02T16:52:22Z beach: If you render to polygons, there is not too much client-side rendering to do, and most backends can handle it. 2015-01-02T16:53:01Z nyef: I'm also considering regions again, as I'm beginning to see that I actually do need them. 2015-01-02T16:53:24Z nyef: ... even if I've yet to have success in implementing even the subset that's purely rectilinear composition. 2015-01-02T16:54:32Z beach: Too bad you can't use gilberth's code. It is quite complete and well written, aside from the comments in German. 2015-01-02T16:55:18Z Puffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T16:56:21Z beach: I guess if you render to elliptical arcs, there will be fewer of them and the rendering will be more precise. 2015-01-02T16:56:25Z nyef: Mathematically, I'm fairly confident that the composition of multiple axis-aligned elliptical arc segments should work. 2015-01-02T16:56:44Z nyef: Not absolutely confident, but it seems very plausible to me. 2015-01-02T16:56:59Z beach: It will still be an approximation, though. 2015-01-02T16:57:10Z beach: The problem with X11 is the integer coordinates. 2015-01-02T16:57:29Z beach: ... unless you use the Render Extension. 2015-01-02T16:57:41Z beach: ... which would be a very nice thing to do by the way. 2015-01-02T16:58:00Z psy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T16:58:06Z beach: That would be back to client-side rendering though. 2015-01-02T16:59:26Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T16:59:36Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:00:15Z nyef: Okay, yes, integer coordinates means an approximation. 2015-01-02T17:00:38Z nyef: For that, we're covered by the "drawing is approximate" guarantee. d-: 2015-01-02T17:00:46Z beach: I would write a backend for McCLIM using the Render Extension, but the documentation in CLX is quite skimpy, and I am unable to understand the protocol specification, despite having read it several times. 2015-01-02T17:01:32Z nyef: An OpenGL backend using the CLX GLX might be interesting as well, except that it's incomplete, fragile, AND poorly documented. 2015-01-02T17:01:51Z nyef: And that's not a piece of code that I'm in any hurry to look at again. 2015-01-02T17:02:13Z beach: I can see why. 2015-01-02T17:02:31Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:02:44Z beach: Also, isn't there something more modern than GLX? 2015-01-02T17:04:01Z nyef: Not until you start using DRI, at which point it's FFI all over the place. 2015-01-02T17:04:10Z psy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:04:10Z nikki93__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:04:17Z beach: Hmm, OK. 2015-01-02T17:04:37Z beach: I need to talk this over with moore33. He is up to date about OpenGL stuff. 2015-01-02T17:05:05Z beach: I should just invite him over for lunch one day. 2015-01-02T17:05:09Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:05:35Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T17:05:59Z beach: mrkkrp: If you have questions, don't hesitate. Perhaps my explanation was not very good. 2015-01-02T17:06:42Z brucem: beach: GLFW 3 (which a lot of people use from C) still uses GLX on Linux, I think. 2015-01-02T17:07:09Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:07:19Z beach: brucem: OK. I believe you. I am having a hard time with the OpenGL world. 2015-01-02T17:07:44Z nyef: Actually, the issue is more that there's GLX, and then there's the GLX wire protocol. 2015-01-02T17:08:10Z hellome joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:08:41Z nyef: And the wire protocol is stuck somewhere back at about 1.3, and anything more modern uses DRI, at which point the X bits are for input-handling and either getting a window to draw in or jumping to fullscreen mode. 2015-01-02T17:08:56Z beach: It seems to me that the sane thing to do would be to write a modern version of CLX that goes directly to the wire protocol. 2015-01-02T17:09:22Z brucem: beach: others use EGL-the-library ... but I don't know what it does under the covers. 2015-01-02T17:09:46Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:09:59Z nyef: No, the sane thing to do would be to write a modern version of CLX that goes to xcb or whatever it's called these days. 2015-01-02T17:10:26Z nyef: Once you have an FFI CLX, you can use the various platform opengl libraries with reasonable integration. 2015-01-02T17:10:27Z beach: I am lost in TLA's. 2015-01-02T17:10:49Z nikki93__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:10:49Z nyef: Instead of having to hold an X server connection open for CLX and another one for opengl. 2015-01-02T17:11:46Z bimanakvad quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T17:12:43Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:12:44Z mrkkrp: well, I looked at this specification, so basically it's highly portable library for GUI and some basic graphic output that provides uniform CL API and can work with various backends? 2015-01-02T17:12:52Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:13:14Z beach: mrkkrp: That's a remarkably good summary. 2015-01-02T17:13:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:14:11Z mrkkrp: beach, well you're doing good things, I will try McCLIM, it's interesting 2015-01-02T17:14:37Z beach: mrkkrp: Thanks. 2015-01-02T17:14:43Z nyef: Note that the higher-level application stuff in CLIM has a rather unusual philosophy to it. 2015-01-02T17:14:56Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:16:01Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T17:16:31Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:16:57Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:17:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:18:30Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:18:38Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T17:18:38Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:18:47Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T17:19:23Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:21:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T17:24:14Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T17:24:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:25:47Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T17:28:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:30:24Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:30:30Z beach: Yay! SICL LOOP passes ANSI FOR-AS-HASH tests! 2015-01-02T17:31:40Z nyef: beach: Congratulations. 2015-01-02T17:32:33Z nyef: And nq-clim now handles sheet graft/degraft and adopt/disown notifications properly. 2015-01-02T17:32:34Z beach: nyef: Thanks. Basically only FOR-AS-PACKAGE left, and some minor things like handling IT. 2015-01-02T17:32:49Z nyef: Plus sheet-grafted-p and sheet-viewable-p are in place. 2015-01-02T17:32:49Z beach: nyef: Very impressive! You are working fast! 2015-01-02T17:33:12Z nyef: I am, and I'm not. 2015-01-02T17:33:58Z beach: nyef: Do you have any plans for a test suite? 2015-01-02T17:34:01Z nyef: I'm trying not to be impatient with my progress as I shore up the underpinnings of nq-clim instead of hacking on the layout protocols, frame managers, and whatnot. 2015-01-02T17:34:34Z nyef: I'd love to have a test suite, but I haven't really taken action on it yet. 2015-01-02T17:34:57Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:35:01Z rpg: BTW, I talked to Howie Shrobe of MIT recently, and he and a student were playing with a browser display layer for CLIM... 2015-01-02T17:35:34Z beach: Something like that has existed for a while. 2015-01-02T17:35:42Z nyef: Sheets and output records as DIV elements? 2015-01-02T17:36:00Z nyef: ... layout panes become stupidly obvious at that point, too... 2015-01-02T17:36:38Z nyef: Websocket connection, yeah, that could be interesting. 2015-01-02T17:37:23Z beach: nyef: I have only vague ideas on how to test GUI libraries and GUI applications. It seems very hard. 2015-01-02T17:38:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:39:06Z nyef: Only if you're thinking about it in terms of user interface. What would be involved in testing the behavior of sheets with no grafts, no mirrors, and no mediums? 2015-01-02T17:39:28Z nyef: What would be involved in testing the interaction between sheets and mediums? 2015-01-02T17:39:40Z nyef: And so on. 2015-01-02T17:39:46Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:40:00Z beach: Those are good questions. Krystof wrote the NULL backend for McCLIM for the purpose of testing as I recall. That's a good start. 2015-01-02T17:40:22Z nyef: As soon as you are interacting with a display server, you're kindof sunk. 2015-01-02T17:40:32Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:41:06Z beach: Yeah. I suppose you could write a specific "display server" for testing purposes. Then you would have predictable behavior. 2015-01-02T17:41:30Z nyef: Here's a simple test that McCLIM would fail: Go through the CLIM spec and find every symbol defined to be a constant. Call CONSTANTP on it. The test fails if any of the symbols are not constants. 2015-01-02T17:41:48Z pnpuff left #lisp 2015-01-02T17:42:43Z beach: That's a bit unfair though because it is common to use DEFPARAMETER rather than DEFCONSTANT during development, to avoid errors during recompilation. 2015-01-02T17:42:44Z dim: what's the (declare ...) type for an external-format? 2015-01-02T17:43:00Z nyef: dim: T 2015-01-02T17:43:13Z dim: mm. thanks 2015-01-02T17:43:26Z nyef: (Kindof useless as a declaration, though.) 2015-01-02T17:43:48Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:43:52Z Grue`` is now known as Grue` 2015-01-02T17:44:26Z dim: then I guess it's :encoding (or encoding :default) rather than a declare to force the user passing something 2015-01-02T17:44:37Z nyef: beach: If it's properly a constant, such as +nowhere+, then redefining the underlying class should update the instance, and redefining the symbol has to be idempotent anyway... 2015-01-02T17:45:14Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T17:45:29Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:47:10Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:47:29Z beach: nyef: Sorry, got to go. Dinner! I might be back later. 2015-01-02T17:47:40Z nyef: beach: Enjoy your meal. 2015-01-02T17:47:52Z nyef goes looking for lunch. 2015-01-02T17:49:29Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:49:42Z dandersen1 is now known as dkcl 2015-01-02T17:49:47Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T17:49:48Z dkcl joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:52:32Z jesusito left #lisp 2015-01-02T17:54:41Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:55:41Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:56:22Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:57:10Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T17:58:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T17:59:35Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:00:14Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:00:44Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-01-02T18:01:37Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:02:01Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-02T18:02:02Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:03:39Z GuilOooo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T18:03:49Z dj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:03:52Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:04:35Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:06:26Z malbertife joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:06:44Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:07:12Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:07:22Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:07:36Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T18:07:39Z arcwest1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:07:55Z rpg: Is there any way to print a stack frame w/ arguments in LDB? [crashed in test suite and the name of the test is the info I need, not the name of the function...] 2015-01-02T18:08:46Z nyef: rpg: Unfortunately not... is the output buffered or something, so you can't find the name of the previous test? 2015-01-02T18:09:13Z rpg: nyef: Seems like the FiveAM test suite doesn't print the check names... 2015-01-02T18:09:31Z rpg: I'll see if I can figure out whether there's a way to make it do this.... 2015-01-02T18:09:35Z nyef: Ahh. 2015-01-02T18:09:37Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-01-02T18:09:52Z nyef: Dynamic space exhausted, or something else? 2015-01-02T18:10:19Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:10:34Z nyef: clhs slot-value 2015-01-02T18:10:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 2015-01-02T18:10:54Z stassats: what's needed for values? decoding the debug function, is it not too C friendly? 2015-01-02T18:11:20Z rpg: nyef: Heap exhaustion.... 2015-01-02T18:11:34Z Grue`: hunchentoot docs say, "You can also run several acceptors in one image, each one listening on a different port.", but they all use the same dispatch table so I can't run 2 different apps on different ports 2015-01-02T18:11:44Z stassats: you can 2015-01-02T18:12:11Z nyef: Grue`: Don't you have to subclass the acceptor to set the dispatch table in the first place or something like that? 2015-01-02T18:12:32Z Grue`: there's just one global *dispatch-table* 2015-01-02T18:12:41Z stassats: you don't have to use it 2015-01-02T18:13:01Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T18:13:10Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:13:23Z Grue`: well, my old app uses it, and the new one uses clack, which also uses it... 2015-01-02T18:13:55Z fmu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:14:10Z fmu joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:14:24Z stassats: and even if you do use it, you can dispatch differently based on the acceptor 2015-01-02T18:14:49Z stassats: even if you do use define-easy-handler, you can supply :acceptor-names 2015-01-02T18:15:00Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:15:46Z stassats: but i would rather define a method for http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#acceptor-dispatch-request 2015-01-02T18:15:49Z nyef: Can something be done using the thread-affinity for global variable bindings? 2015-01-02T18:16:07Z nyef: s/global/special/ 2015-01-02T18:17:45Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:20:31Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:21:56Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:22:40Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2015-01-02T18:22:56Z tertl3-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:25:23Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:25:27Z manuel__ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T18:26:43Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:27:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:30:03Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:32:07Z tertl3-laptop joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:35:00Z rpg: nyef: quick question about my heap exhaustion bug: I see that *GC-INHIBIT* is true -- does that mean my test suite has somehow accidentally turned off GC? 2015-01-02T18:35:19Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:35:25Z nyef: Very plausibly. Or it could even be intentional. 2015-01-02T18:35:53Z rpg: nyef: It isn't just an internal flag that SBCL toggles itself? 2015-01-02T18:35:53Z nyef: Or it could be calling something in SBCL that turns the GC off briefly. 2015-01-02T18:35:54Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-02T18:36:47Z rpg: OK, I don't think that anything I'm running would be turning it off. I'm just surprised because this test suite passed on 1.2.0 (I believe that was the last), but breaks on 1.2.6 2015-01-02T18:37:53Z Krystof: I suppose asynchonous unwinds at exactly the wrong moment might cause confusion 2015-01-02T18:38:05Z fe[nl]ix: what do you mean by "check names" ? 2015-01-02T18:38:32Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:41:32Z nyef: Okay, that's the worst of the sheet notification damage dealt with. Now to figure out what's next... 2015-01-02T18:47:33Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:48:59Z tertl3-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:49:13Z kuimacro joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:51:32Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:52:17Z inkogneato quit (Quit: inkogneato) 2015-01-02T18:52:21Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:54:14Z nyef: Hrm. What's the interaction if you combine MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN and PERMANENT-MEDIUM-SHEET-OUTPUT-MIXIN ? 2015-01-02T18:54:35Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:55:09Z nyef: PERMANENT-MEDIUM-SHEET-OUTPUT-MIXIN most likely uses NOTE-SHEET-GRAFTED to trigger creating and grafting its medium. 2015-01-02T18:55:17Z nyef: But that should happen AFTER any mirror is realized. 2015-01-02T18:55:45Z nyef: ... shouldn't it? 2015-01-02T18:55:54Z nyef: Yes, because of the medium-drawable. 2015-01-02T18:55:58Z nyef: Hrm. 2015-01-02T18:56:00Z dkcl quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T18:56:14Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:57:33Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:57:52Z kuimacro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T18:58:30Z antonv joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:58:38Z dandersen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-02T18:58:57Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T18:58:57Z nyef: Do we dare declare that mirrored-sheet-mixin always realizes its mirror upon grafting? 2015-01-02T19:01:28Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T19:01:30Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:03:24Z dandersen quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T19:04:23Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:06:24Z nyef: ... I don't think that it makes sense to have a mirrored-sheet-mixin actually rendered to the screen for a while before the program (or the system) decides "oh, NOW we need to realize the mirror". 2015-01-02T19:07:50Z nyef: And, to satisfy ordering sanity with respect to permanent-medium-sheet-output-mixin, mirrored-sheet-mixin needs a :before method on note-grafted and an :after method on note-degrafted, to allow the medium to always operate in terms of a valid mirror. 2015-01-02T19:08:59Z myk267 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T19:09:25Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T19:09:52Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:09:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:09:57Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:10:40Z dandersen quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T19:11:18Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:11:45Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:12:00Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T19:12:00Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:15:43Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:16:15Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T19:16:15Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:16:59Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:19:55Z nyef sighs. 2015-01-02T19:20:14Z nyef: And either I declare all sheets to be mirrored sheets, or I need to implement regions. /-: 2015-01-02T19:20:29Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T19:25:13Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T19:25:18Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:27:16Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T19:27:39Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:28:32Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:28:56Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:29:27Z raphaelss joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:29:36Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:29:57Z innertracks1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:30:08Z rpg: nyef, fe[nl]ix: weirdly no option to print the test names that I could find, but good old fashioned TRACE did the job. 2015-01-02T19:30:11Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-01-02T19:30:41Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:30:45Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:32:04Z nyef: ... Either I have an implementation of the part of the region protocol that I need just lying around on my disk from a previous incarnation of nq-clim, or I have an unintelligable pile of junk. Or both. It includes test cases, but I don't know what they actually mean. 2015-01-02T19:33:10Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:33:31Z GuilOooo quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-02T19:33:49Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:39:17Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:42:23Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:42:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:43:40Z REPLeffect quit 2015-01-02T19:44:30Z Puffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:44:37Z nyef: Preliminary conclusion: This code is very probably incomplete, and I'll need to draw out the scenarios for the test cases before I can understand them. 2015-01-02T19:46:13Z nyef: Yeah, this clearly isn't complete: It defines intersections with nowhere (on both sides) and between two rectangles, but not with composite regions. 2015-01-02T19:48:55Z Puffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:48:57Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-01-02T19:49:55Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:52:17Z paul0```` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T19:55:19Z nyef: Hunh. There's an interesting comment in the spec for (SETF SHEET-REGION): "the accessor will continue to return the old value until the notification comes in from the display server that says that the mirror has been moved". 2015-01-02T19:57:03Z inkogneato quit (Quit: inkogneato) 2015-01-02T19:58:35Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-02T19:59:08Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:00:09Z milosn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T20:00:35Z nyef: This has to affect just about everything that would be mirrored to an X window, and breaks a number of assumptions that I've been implicitly making about how mirrors work. 2015-01-02T20:01:29Z Beetny joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:02:40Z milosn joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:05:57Z innertracks1 quit (Quit: innertracks1) 2015-01-02T20:06:35Z mrkkrp left #lisp 2015-01-02T20:07:49Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:08:35Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:08:44Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:09:10Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:09:24Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T20:09:45Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:11:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:13:12Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:14:57Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T20:15:02Z REPLeffect quit 2015-01-02T20:16:50Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:17:53Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T20:17:53Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:18:56Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:23:15Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-02T20:23:46Z xrash joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:24:23Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:24:28Z stassats quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T20:24:28Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:28:05Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:32:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:34:39Z inkogneato quit (Quit: inkogneato) 2015-01-02T20:37:29Z REPLeffect quit 2015-01-02T20:41:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:42:44Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:45:09Z wg1024 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:45:30Z wg1024 quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T20:45:49Z wg1024 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:46:52Z wg1024 quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T20:47:31Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:49:39Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:50:17Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:50:36Z wg1024 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:50:54Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:52:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:53:13Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T20:53:37Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:54:02Z araujo joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:54:03Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T20:55:04Z wg1024 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T20:55:18Z enitiz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T20:55:31Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:56:32Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T20:58:14Z REPLeffect quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T21:00:17Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:04:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:05:15Z rpg: Does the SBCL make.sh behave like make as in not rebuilding if nothing's changed? 2015-01-02T21:05:52Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:05:54Z raphaelss quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:06:01Z stassats: no 2015-01-02T21:07:23Z stassats: it used to be that ./make.sh --help wiped everything 2015-01-02T21:07:24Z stassats: fun times 2015-01-02T21:08:55Z rpg: stassats: I thought that was right, but needed to check. 2015-01-02T21:09:15Z stassats: there's slam.sh 2015-01-02T21:09:41Z stassats: unless you're porting to a new architecture, not really needed 2015-01-02T21:10:04Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:11:28Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:11:45Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:11:58Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-02T21:13:04Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:13:55Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:14:05Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:14:19Z ggole quit 2015-01-02T21:15:23Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:15:43Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:16:29Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:16:54Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:20:36Z akkad: is there a way using bordeaux threads, to limit how many are created in a loop? 2015-01-02T21:20:57Z akkad: i.e. a thread pool 2015-01-02T21:21:26Z Xach: There is a project called "thread-pool" 2015-01-02T21:21:34Z Xach: I haven't used it, but maybe it would save some work. 2015-01-02T21:21:36Z akkad: excellent. thanks. 2015-01-02T21:21:43Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:21:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:23:03Z _death: there's also lparallel 2015-01-02T21:23:14Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:23:34Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:23:40Z akkad: lparallel looked like overkill for what I was doing 2015-01-02T21:24:28Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T21:24:28Z yrk joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:24:50Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:24:52Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:29:53Z stassats: i use lparallel just for its queues, you don't have to use everything 2015-01-02T21:30:16Z akkad: stassats: thanks 2015-01-02T21:36:14Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:36:19Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:36:25Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:38:57Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: ping 2015-01-02T21:39:25Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:40:07Z rurumate: does this room have an eval service? 2015-01-02T21:40:08Z rtoym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T21:40:09Z rurumate: ,(let ((v (make-array 7 :fill-pointer 1))) (vector-push 1 v) (rotatef (aref v 0) (aref v 1)) v) 2015-01-02T21:40:13Z rurumate: ~(let ((v (make-array 7 :fill-pointer 1))) (vector-push 1 v) (rotatef (aref v 0) (aref v 1)) v) 2015-01-02T21:40:19Z Bicyclidine: no. 2015-01-02T21:40:32Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T21:40:33Z rtoym joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:41:25Z hrs quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2015-01-02T21:42:42Z rpg: fe[nl]ix 2015-01-02T21:42:44Z rpg: ack 2015-01-02T21:43:20Z rurumate: The expression above returns #(1 0), and (aref v 0) is apparently 0. However replacing (aref v 0) with 0 is apparently an error. Why? 2015-01-02T21:43:48Z _death: because rotatef wants places 2015-01-02T21:44:02Z rurumate: 0 is not a place? 2015-01-02T21:44:05Z _death: nope 2015-01-02T21:44:20Z rurumate: so (aref v 0) is not really 0? 2015-01-02T21:45:02Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: the latest version of fiveam prints test names as they are executed 2015-01-02T21:45:03Z Bicyclidine: in rotatef, it's a place 2015-01-02T21:45:11Z nate_c joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:45:13Z Bicyclidine: rotatef is a macro, it doesn't just evaluate "(aref v 0)" 2015-01-02T21:45:23Z rurumate: oh it's a macro 2015-01-02T21:45:33Z rurumate: I didn't notice 2015-01-02T21:46:07Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Sigh. I need to merge the changes with our in-house version. Dreading this chore. We made many extensions and fixes while FiveAM was not moving. 2015-01-02T21:46:30Z rpg dreads horrible merge 2015-01-02T21:46:44Z fe[nl]ix: if you feel like disclosing the source code I can try to do that 2015-01-02T21:47:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I wouldn't mind. I think what I should do is see if I can extract the set of patches we made. If I get a non-horrible diff it might be easiest to look at that.... 2015-01-02T21:47:54Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:48:16Z davorb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:48:37Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: if you have a git repository you can push it to github and I can cherry-pick your patches 2015-01-02T21:48:47Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:48:49Z fe[nl]ix: don't tell me it's pre-git 2015-01-02T21:49:00Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I won't tell you that it's in subversion ;-) 2015-01-02T21:49:14Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:49:16Z Patzy joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:49:23Z fe[nl]ix: I see 2015-01-02T21:49:26Z Xach: I'm going to try to put Corman CL on github today 2015-01-02T21:49:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: But yay, there's a vendor tag, so I should be able to identify all the changes we made. 2015-01-02T21:49:53Z akkad: Xach: nice! they finally replied? 2015-01-02T21:50:08Z Xach: Roger replied and gave the go-ahead for MIT licensing and publishing the sources. 2015-01-02T21:50:11Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: most excellent 2015-01-02T21:50:36Z akkad: nice 2015-01-02T21:51:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T21:51:24Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:51:40Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:51:48Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: if you could send them as a sequence of commits, not one big patch, that would be even better 2015-01-02T21:52:27Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:52:32Z nate_c quit (Quit: nate_c) 2015-01-02T21:53:33Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I don't think I can, but I'm looking over the diff and it looks much less bad than I thought. I should review the various patches and see which are still relevant. 2015-01-02T21:53:51Z rpg: Many of them had to do with fixing problems that fiveam got from using arnesi. 2015-01-02T21:53:57Z nikki93__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:54:02Z rpg: Those lookup tables didn't work that well. 2015-01-02T21:54:43Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-02T21:55:34Z Puffin joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:55:58Z nydel: g'day all 2015-01-02T21:56:59Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-01-02T21:57:44Z octophore quit (Quit: Bye) 2015-01-02T21:58:57Z nydel: oo a new slime release. 2015-01-02T21:59:22Z akkad: "what do you mean I need lisp to update quicklisp..." 2015-01-02T21:59:47Z Xach: akkad: who wrote that? 2015-01-02T22:00:04Z nydel: akkad: is that something a person said? or output of an erroring chatbot 2015-01-02T22:00:19Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:00:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:02:12Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:03:22Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:08:15Z nydel: i actually have some sympathy for this thread on slime's git about swank & slime differeing in version. when i was using swank-server for MUCLR i got that warning all the time. it didn't seem to stop anything but who likes a warning. 2015-01-02T22:08:40Z nydel: got that warning when the two were not of differeing versions, to be clear. 2015-01-02T22:10:57Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:11:12Z akkad: Xach based on the complaint of sbcl and others requiring lisp to bootstrap 2015-01-02T22:11:29Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:11:35Z akkad: someone in the office said it 2015-01-02T22:12:08Z keen__________22 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T22:12:22Z __main__ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:13:27Z joswig joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:13:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:13:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2015-01-02T22:13:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:13:38Z keen__________22 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:16:54Z lispm quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:19:08Z tokenrove: xach: Corman CL is being open sourced? that's awesome. how did that come about? 2015-01-02T22:21:02Z inkogneato quit (Quit: inkogneato) 2015-01-02T22:21:47Z nydel: i'm wary of things being "open-sourced" suddenly after this recent minecraft/craftbukkit debacle. 2015-01-02T22:22:17Z nydel: kind of feels like proprietary software companies think they can take advantage of the open-source community and they might be right 2015-01-02T22:22:36Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:22:43Z nikki93__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T22:24:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:24:05Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:24:26Z p_l: AFAIK full Corman License always included buildable source code 2015-01-02T22:24:40Z p_l: but I ended up never buying it, so I can't tell for sure 2015-01-02T22:25:25Z p_l: nydel: open sourcing is also a rather kind move if for some reason you're (nearly) dropping the product 2015-01-02T22:25:27Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:25:38Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:26:09Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T22:26:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:26:44Z nydel: i never bought it either. i think i bought allegro and even lispworks years ago when i still ever used that non-unix OS with the closed source and errors... but one often tends to stop buying CL's after joining the cult of sb i think 2015-01-02T22:26:57Z nikki93: sorry bad internet 2015-01-02T22:27:19Z nydel: p_l: yeah i think even apple releases the source of the previous LTS for OSX and maybe even iOS 2015-01-02T22:27:33Z p_l: nydel: they release some parts of the source 2015-01-02T22:27:41Z akkad: "Once you release your source code, prepare to stand by and watch others rewrite it instead of extending it" -jwz 2015-01-02T22:27:47Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.50.1)) 2015-01-02T22:27:52Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:28:17Z rpg_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:28:58Z nydel: that doesn't /always/ happen. not if the core is solid and the software is extensible. 2015-01-02T22:29:02Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:29:33Z akkad: opensource has a tendency to duplicate instead of embracing and extending 2015-01-02T22:29:56Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-01-02T22:30:08Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T22:30:30Z ehu: p_l: yes, Corman included full sources. 2015-01-02T22:30:32Z nydel: akkad: why do you suppose that is? i think it's something to do with the nature of systems like git. you have to fork and request a pull 2015-01-02T22:30:48Z nydel: i imagine a lot of people get impatient waiting on the pull and just keep working the fork. 2015-01-02T22:31:04Z ehu: p_l: I bought it, so I know. (and no, I don't have it anywhere atm; I have lost it in one of many jumps to new PCs) 2015-01-02T22:31:05Z nyef: Umm... No, the tendency long pre-dated git. 2015-01-02T22:31:48Z nydel: nyef: of course it would. git just makes it easier to fork and request a pullback. but before git the process was still the same just not as easy. 2015-01-02T22:31:48Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T22:31:55Z p_l: actually, git probably makes it easier 2015-01-02T22:32:00Z akkad: like a virus entering a living cell, it replicates more often than mutates. 2015-01-02T22:32:01Z p_l: to actually contribute, that is 2015-01-02T22:32:12Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:32:18Z nyef: Trying to use CVS was a bleeding nightmare. There's a REASON why git got so much traction so quickly. 2015-01-02T22:32:22Z akkad: no doubt git prevents major forks 2015-01-02T22:32:39Z p_l: forks are more of a social issue than technical 2015-01-02T22:32:48Z nydel: great point p_l 2015-01-02T22:32:53Z p_l: an a lot of people got a NIH syndrome, or the events force them into it 2015-01-02T22:33:05Z akkad: yeah and "he who controls the cvs server runs the project" tends to diminish a lot with git like dcvs 2015-01-02T22:33:09Z nyef: Look more for social reasons than technical reasons to explain things. 2015-01-02T22:33:16Z nydel: exactly 2015-01-02T22:33:34Z p_l: sometimes, you explicitly want to start over 2015-01-02T22:33:46Z p_l: like me and alternatives to NetworkManager and systemd ;D 2015-01-02T22:33:48Z nydel: that's why i'm trying to build multi-user common lisp repl ... so we can have a project open in a shared repl and everyone can be modifying it at the same time. 2015-01-02T22:34:17Z rurumate quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:34:18Z nyef: nydel: I find that idea deeply unsettling, TBH. 2015-01-02T22:34:23Z nydel: i feel like that sort of more-live-and-real-time-than-a-git-fork interface would encourage a lot more development instead of rewrite 2015-01-02T22:34:46Z nydel: nyef: thats great, could you elaborate? 2015-01-02T22:35:07Z nydel: nyef: that is not sarcastic, i literallly am looking for people who might think MUCLR is a bad idea 2015-01-02T22:35:21Z brandonz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:35:23Z nydel: because i wanna make it a good idea and need criticism if it can be made 2015-01-02T22:35:36Z nyef: I break stuff often enough when working by myself. If other people are working on the system at the same time we're all likely to get in each others way. 2015-01-02T22:36:12Z p_l: nyef: STM-like behaviour for code? :D 2015-01-02T22:36:14Z nydel: nyef: the way i'm building it now, anyone can send "EVALUATE {argument} 2015-01-02T22:36:17Z inkogneato joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:36:31Z nydel: " to the shared repl and it just /does/ it assuming you're logged in with valid credentials 2015-01-02T22:36:38Z nydel: but that scares me too 2015-01-02T22:36:38Z nyef: When I first started using common lisp I managed to completely torch my image several times. As in "Welcome to LDB" torch my image. 2015-01-02T22:37:40Z kcj joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:37:47Z nydel: ouch, yeah. see i could really use your help developing the API and Specifications for client-to-server commmunication in muclr. and server-to-registrar. perhaps the registrar makes backup images of repls at intervals determined by config or something 2015-01-02T22:38:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-02T22:38:24Z nydel: it's gonna be hard to get anyone willing to join the team until i have a more functioning model up but i know i'm gonna need some brilliant people to do this right 2015-01-02T22:40:14Z nyef: I may or may not be brilliant, but the idea of sharing a running image with other people, all hacking on the same system, with no explicit synchronization where completed changes are shipped around instead of work-in-process being applied to everybody immediately still seems like a nightmare to me. 2015-01-02T22:40:49Z wasamasa: welcoe to the world of high-availability distributed systems 2015-01-02T22:40:54Z nydel: nyef: of course, it IS a potential nightmare. until the API is figurered out. 2015-01-02T22:41:24Z nyef: No, don't look to technical solutions to social problems. 2015-01-02T22:41:43Z nydel: god that's great advice. 2015-01-02T22:41:50Z nydel: hm. 2015-01-02T22:42:18Z nyef: By the same token, beware looking for social solutions to technical problems. 2015-01-02T22:44:43Z akkad: what license was Corman under before? 2015-01-02T22:44:46Z nydel: thanks nyef very helpful as always. i'll need to think on this all 2015-01-02T22:45:26Z nyef: As far as I'm concerned, the tendency of open source to copy things rather than create new things is due to two major factors. First, it's a whole lot easier to coordinate people to duplicate existing work. Second, the reward structures strongly benefit closed source for original work. 2015-01-02T22:45:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T22:46:09Z ehu: akkad: their own. 2015-01-02T22:46:13Z ehu: akkad: commercial. 2015-01-02T22:46:23Z ehu: akkad: which one does it have now? 2015-01-02T22:46:35Z nyef: Oh, and third, a lot of people want something "just like X, but...", which presupposes copying X to begin with. 2015-01-02T22:46:35Z akkad: see above 2015-01-02T22:47:46Z nydel: nyef: and social reasons prevent "just like X but..." from ever being reabsorped into X, which should be possible if the "but..." is necessary 2015-01-02T22:47:56Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:48:14Z nyef: nydel: Not if X is closed-source. 2015-01-02T22:48:46Z nyef: But yes, social reasons, including incentive structures. 2015-01-02T22:49:08Z nydel: oh if it's closed source. so a ground-up reinventing not a fork or even partial rewrite. yeah. 2015-01-02T22:49:50Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T22:50:00Z ehu: akkad: "see above"? I searched for License/license and saw nothing about Corman's current license being anything other than what it used to be. 2015-01-02T22:50:08Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:50:17Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T22:50:20Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T22:50:26Z otwieracz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T22:50:38Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T22:50:48Z nyef: ehu: Xach announced an hour ago that Roger had given the go-ahead for an MIT-license release, and that he was going to try and get it onto github today. 2015-01-02T22:50:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:51:01Z nydel: when mocl was released, i looked down on them for the way they licensed it. but after recent events with open-source screwery and dmca invoccation, i'm changing my licensing up as well. apparently microsoft can just come along and buy their way around the GPL. 2015-01-02T22:51:26Z nydel: and of course then the LLGPL 2015-01-02T22:52:02Z ehu: nyef: thanks. 2015-01-02T22:52:17Z ehu: nyef: any specific reason why he'd do that? 2015-01-02T22:52:36Z nyef: There's a whole background story that I'm not overly familiar with. 2015-01-02T22:53:19Z nyef: nydel: Dare I ask what events? 2015-01-02T22:53:36Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T22:53:45Z ehu: nyef: ok. np. I'd like to know, as a former buyer :-) 2015-01-02T22:54:00Z ehu: (and general common lisp enthusiast) 2015-01-02T22:55:01Z vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 2015-01-02T22:55:41Z ehu: I liked the product, really, but I disliked the fact that there was no way to create graphical Win32 (at the time) applications -- which is typically what my users expected. 2015-01-02T22:55:57Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:56:03Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T22:57:31Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T22:57:31Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-02T22:57:40Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T22:58:51Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:00:08Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-02T23:02:39Z arcwest2 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:03:59Z arcwest1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:08:59Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:09:23Z nydel: nyef: the purchase of minecraft by ms & the subsequent shutdown of the craftbukkit project 2015-01-02T23:10:57Z nydel: craftbukkit was open-source and essentially the entire multiplayer half of the minecraft system pre-1.8 2015-01-02T23:11:26Z nydel: but one of the four project heads invoked dmca when the other three tried to sell it out 2015-01-02T23:11:30Z nydel: now it's just gone 2015-01-02T23:11:55Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:11:55Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:12:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:14:05Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:14:11Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:14:55Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T23:15:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-02T23:15:20Z akkad: MS bought minecraft? 2015-01-02T23:15:33Z akkad wondered why minecraft.el stopped working 2015-01-02T23:15:47Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:19:45Z stacksmith: MScraft 2015-01-02T23:20:22Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-02T23:20:47Z akkad: well the graphics were on part with DirectX 2015-01-02T23:21:46Z Bicyclidine: they bought mojang in the fall. 2015-01-02T23:25:05Z ska-fan_ is now known as ska-fan 2015-01-02T23:26:15Z nyef: Hunh. 2015-01-02T23:26:21Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-02T23:26:28Z nyef: Well, one way around the GPL is to buy out all of the copyright holders. 2015-01-02T23:26:40Z nyef: That's always been the case. 2015-01-02T23:28:26Z akkad: e.g. MySQL 2015-01-02T23:30:58Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-02T23:32:23Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:34:16Z antonv` joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:37:40Z nyef: The thing that annoyed me about MySQL is that they tried to claim that the wire protocol was covered by the GPL. 2015-01-02T23:38:01Z akkad: sounds like the SMB benchmark 2015-01-02T23:38:18Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-02T23:42:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:43:18Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T23:43:23Z chrisb joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:43:28Z nyef: Hrm. A sheet is enabled with respect to its parent. SHEET-ENABLED-P is defined in terms of being enabled BY a parent. If a sheet isn't in a youth windowing relationship, can it be enabled at all? 2015-01-02T23:46:26Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:49:40Z gigetoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T23:50:40Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:51:01Z yrdz joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:58:08Z rpg joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:59:31Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2015-01-02T23:59:32Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-02T23:59:48Z rpg joined #lisp