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2014-12-21T02:46:38Z names: ccl-logbot sbryant nightshade427 harish hiyosi ASau` kirin` s00pcan s_e xrash Hydan Quadrescence oleo zRecursive farhaven Alix nell drdanmaku araujo Ethan- nydel egp_ kcj DeadTrickster Patzy billstclair necronian oudeis cjmacs yeticry kristof Beetny diginet eazar001 dagnachew cpc26_ joshe joast Hexstream defaultxr ecraven whowantstolivefo c74d bcoburn scymtym_ Adlai bgs100 rtoym tharugrim _5kg rtra DrCode arpunk K1rk blahzik Vutral Oddity Intensity Takumo
2014-12-21T02:46:38Z names: kalzz scymtym mathrick Soft- sol__ zacharias larme cosmicexplorer LiamH qlkzy kyl_ nisstyre Subfusc sauerkra- bege rick-monster spacebat dxtr bjorkintosh fikusz les Phreak ferada quasisane aksatac scharan zeitue hitecnologys anunnaki Neptu ircbrowse brent80_plow specbot dan64- tokenrove vlnx redline6561 clop3 tbarletz AeroNotix heurist jayne_ Rudolph-Miller_ froggey klltkr rvirding dtw transfinite AntiSpamMeta oconnore_ ssake fe[nl]ix flip214 d4gg4d
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2014-12-21T02:46:38Z names: Mandus Grue` j0ni kbtr ft notty mearnsh jocuman TDT` katco ``Erik minion nowhereman gabot p_l|backup schoppenhauer Adeon bool_ Zhivago Qudit314159 rk[wrk] kjeldahl clog salv0 ski nightfly ThePhoeron Nshag drdo jdz mingvs CrazyEddy gz killmaster johs __main__ cpt_nemo cmatei z0d alexherbo2 shifty778 roo tomaw stokachu ttm nitro_idiot djinni` sigjuice rotty_ yeltzooo tstc zbigniew cross eak_ yauz tkd setheus oGMo sjl eMBee mband ck_ zickzackv p_l benny
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2014-12-21T02:50:23Z Alix: jasom: lol
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2014-12-21T02:56:28Z jasom: vim actually does a "not-great but not-bad" job right out of the box if you turn the lisp mode on
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2014-12-21T03:01:36Z jasom: but most do ludicrously bad things
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2014-12-21T03:03:25Z jasom: It took me about 15 minutes to write one that was lame but not stupid for geany (just indent each new open paren by a fixed amount) a proper one will indent some forms specially (anything starting with "let" or "with" for example)
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2014-12-21T03:12:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-12-21T03:13:08Z axion: i'm following some source code trying to optimize my own, and i was wondering how when should know when to declaim a function as inline or not?
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2014-12-21T03:15:01Z beach: axion: And what did you come up with?
2014-12-21T03:15:38Z axion: i didn't. i'm not sure i understand when to inline or not. are there any general rules of thumb here?
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2014-12-21T03:16:56Z Quadrescence: axion, inline when (1) the code won't become huge, (2) when eliminating the function boundary can help with unboxing or type derivation, (3) when the function is more of an abbreviation than a major abstraction
2014-12-21T03:16:57Z beach: Sure.  One thing to consider is that if the overhead of calling the function is significant compared to what the function does, then it might be worth inlining it.
2014-12-21T03:17:41Z beach: axion: ... and What Quadrescence says.
2014-12-21T03:17:48Z axion: ok thank you
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2014-12-21T03:18:41Z beach: axion: Often the system itself will make the decision to inline it, so you don't have to.  You can prevent any such decision by declaring it NOTINLINE.
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2014-12-21T03:57:13Z |3b|: beach: did you mean it will decide for you if you declaim it INLINE, or will decide to inline even if you don't?
2014-12-21T03:57:33Z beach: The latter.
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2014-12-21T03:57:54Z |3b|: not sure i'd call that 'often', since it can only do that for local functions or within a compilation unit
2014-12-21T03:57:54Z beach: But now you make me uncertain about that.
2014-12-21T03:58:16Z beach: Really?
2014-12-21T03:58:25Z |3b|: from what i remember
2014-12-21T03:58:35Z beach: Hmm.
2014-12-21T03:58:36Z Bicyclidine: yeah, everything else has to support redefinitions.
2014-12-21T03:58:40Z |3b|: outside those cases, it should see redefinition
2014-12-21T03:59:00Z beach: Yeah, makes sense.
2014-12-21T03:59:06Z |3b|: local functions can't see redefinition since you need to redefine caller as well
2014-12-21T03:59:24Z beach: |3b|: Not quite, but yes, I know it is allowed.
2014-12-21T03:59:45Z beach: |3b|: Oh, local ones.  Sure.
2014-12-21T03:59:50Z beach: I was thinking compilation unit.
2014-12-21T03:59:54Z |3b|:  i guess running closures could see closed over redefined function
2014-12-21T04:00:06Z |3b|: right, compilation unit is just a special exception
2014-12-21T04:00:14Z |3b| isn't actually sure about local functions now
2014-12-21T04:00:50Z |3b|: though i guess they are inherently all calls within a compilation unit
2014-12-21T04:01:24Z |3b|: so it applies but not due to being local functions
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2014-12-21T04:23:46Z jasom: axion: it really varies from system to system, but on sbcl inlining any functions in which the entire path could use unboxed values will be a big win (IIRC sbcl will not pass unboxed values even when the ftype is known)
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2014-12-21T04:25:33Z Quadrescence: damn abstraction boundaries!
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2014-12-21T05:32:15Z kristof: axion: You should profile your code and make sure any functions you want to inline are actually in a hotspot, though.
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2014-12-21T05:32:55Z kristof: axion: So if you're "abbreviating" a math function, then sure, you probably want to inline it, but it won't matter much if you're not using that function over and over again.
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2014-12-21T06:31:12Z akkad hunts for doing grep(1) like functionality
2014-12-21T06:31:23Z Bicyclidine: cl-ppcre
2014-12-21T06:31:52Z akkad: I've used that. I guess I need to read up on file i/o more
2014-12-21T06:32:05Z akkad: loop over all lines in a file returning matches.
2014-12-21T06:32:09Z akkad: thanks for the recommendation
2014-12-21T06:32:32Z Bicyclidine: that's cl-ppcre plus with-open-file. pretty easy.
2014-12-21T06:32:48Z akkad: good point
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2014-12-21T06:50:41Z beach: Heh, bootstrapping is FUN!  The SICL conditional macros use support code in the form of functions, and those functions use conditional macros.  When I wrote that code, I knew I would be able to get away with it, but I wasn't sure how.  Now, it is getting much clearer.
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2014-12-21T06:52:07Z beach: In the first stage of bootstrapping, I define a first-class global environment that imports all of the Common Lisp functions from the host, and also the support code as host functions.
2014-12-21T06:52:34Z beach: Then I define the macros in the target environment.  Finally, I compile the support code in the target environment.
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2014-12-21T07:07:07Z pjb: jasom: usually, inlining calls will make the surrounding function slower: because now there's more code in it, so jump can't be short jumps anymore but have to be long jumps, and now the loop bodies don't fit the i-cache, so you're hitting the RAM, etc.
2014-12-21T07:07:38Z pjb: jasom: if you try to find out ourself, you may find a sweet spot on your computer, but it'll make it slower on all other computers.
2014-12-21T07:07:48Z Quadrescence: pjb, but come on the cache in now 512 GB in size ;_
2014-12-21T07:07:49Z Quadrescence: ;)
2014-12-21T07:07:49Z pjb: (this is why you should distribute software as source).
2014-12-21T07:08:00Z pjb: Quadrescence: not yet.
2014-12-21T07:08:09Z pjb: 512 MB, not GB.
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2014-12-21T07:10:10Z beach: GB would be nice!
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2014-12-21T07:11:12Z pjb: expensive. I'm sure with enough money, you could convince Intel to make one processor with that much L1 cache :-)
2014-12-21T07:11:20Z Quadrescence: pjb, dont discriminate against caches that are spinning magnetic platters!
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2014-12-21T07:12:30Z kristof: More static ram than you can shake a stick at
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2014-12-21T07:14:46Z beach: pjb: I agree that it is usually not worthwhile to inline just in order to get rid of the function-call overhead.  That advantage ended with the VAX.  However, when the inlined function can be simplified due to type inference, it might be a significant advantage.
2014-12-21T07:15:25Z Bicyclidine: seems like something that should ideally have better ways to do it
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2014-12-21T07:15:48Z pjb: Well the better way is to trust the compiler to do the right thing for you.
2014-12-21T07:15:54Z beach: Bicyclidine: Do you have anything in mind?
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2014-12-21T07:16:54Z Bicyclidine: detailed enough type information that a compiler can know that a T -> T function is also a fixnum -> fixnum function, and generate a call to a specialized fixnum version and propagate the fixnum result through the call site
2014-12-21T07:17:01Z Bicyclidine: dunno how practical that isn't
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2014-12-21T07:18:33Z pjb: It can use heuristics.  First anything that is small can be a candidate for inlining.  Then you can try several inlining combination and see what works. (now that we have multi-core processors, let's use them).
2014-12-21T07:18:34Z beach: For fixnums it might work, but not so well for unboxed floats I would think, because then you will have functions that can not be called directly.
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2014-12-21T07:18:46Z Bicyclidine: So?
2014-12-21T07:19:35Z beach: Bicyclidine: Sure, not an insurmountable problem.  One just has to be careful.
2014-12-21T07:20:05Z pjb: (declaim (optimize like-crazy))
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2014-12-21T07:21:32Z Bicyclidine: beach: just something like "tagged_entry_point: regs = untag(regs); untagged_entry_point:" is how i imagine it
2014-12-21T07:21:37Z |3b|: runtime redefinition makes that stuff a bit harder
2014-12-21T07:21:50Z |3b|: so for CL you need to ask for inlining
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2014-12-21T07:23:50Z |3b|: you would need to keep around all the extra entry points that might have been compiled into a .fasl at some point (or recompile them all on load), or which are in use by any running function (or figure out how to recompile those without breaking them or killing performance)
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2014-12-21T07:25:33Z |3b|: some way to compile assuming no further changes (or with specific limits) would be nice though
2014-12-21T07:26:45Z |3b| also thinks it would be fun to use all the "too expensive" optimizations... how fast could a compiler make things if you gave it the equivalent of a programmer-week salary in amazon ec2 time
2014-12-21T07:27:04Z Bicyclidine: sounds like those superoptimizer things.
2014-12-21T07:27:40Z |3b|: hard part would be making it do so in a form that is at least as amenable to changes as the week's worth of programmer optimization would be
2014-12-21T07:28:13Z |3b|: even the superoptimizer things i've seen seem to be intended for relatively interactive use
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2014-12-21T07:32:06Z |3b|: people always say 'compilers aren't as good as programmers', but then compare hours of programmer work to seconds of compiler work. 1 hr of programmer pay = thousands of cores of ec2 for an hour
2014-12-21T07:36:26Z beach: I think people say that a lot less these days.
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2014-12-21T07:38:16Z |3b|: could be, and my experience is probably biased by looking at game-dev and graphics things, which still can use up all available CPU easily :)
2014-12-21T07:41:22Z pjb: |3b|: the thing is, you would want to super optimize only code that you have proven to be correct :-)
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2014-12-21T07:42:01Z |3b|: pjb: well, let it do 1000 cores worth of proving things about the code  for an hour
2014-12-21T07:42:39Z |3b|: then an hour of programmer time thinking about whether they are expected/correct things
2014-12-21T07:42:52Z |3b|: probably much more effective than 2 hours of programmer staring at the code
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2014-12-21T07:43:21Z pjb: I didn't mention "formal specifications" before "proof", for a reason :-)
2014-12-21T07:43:38Z Zhivago: Humans have been much worse for non-small programs for a long time already.
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2014-12-21T07:46:59Z Zhivago: But you could see superoptimization as a progression for tracing systems that can save the hisorical data.
2014-12-21T07:49:47Z Zhivago: Assu,ing the past is representative of the future, produce a minimal cost implementation.
2014-12-21T07:51:26Z pjb: We could do that, or just put up a few more solar panels.
2014-12-21T07:52:40Z Zhivago: Well, at some point waste heat becomes an issue. :)
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2014-12-21T07:56:55Z Ukari: my emacs+slime can work now
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2014-12-21T08:00:44Z beach: Ukari: Great!
2014-12-21T08:01:11Z Quadrescence: i feel compelled to work on CLIMACS
2014-12-21T08:01:26Z beach: Quadrescence: How come?
2014-12-21T08:01:27Z Quadrescence: because emacs is a foreign language to me and therefore not hackable
2014-12-21T08:01:35Z beach: Elisp?
2014-12-21T08:01:38Z beach: Yeah, I know.
2014-12-21T08:02:11Z pjb: Quadrescence: climacs, or hemlock (either portable hemlock or the hemlock in ccl/cocoa).
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2014-12-21T08:02:44Z beach: Quadrescence: If you decide to do that one day, please work on Second Climacs instead.  It fixes a lot of problems with Climacs.
2014-12-21T08:02:57Z Quadrescence: beach, does that exist or is it vapour?
2014-12-21T08:03:19Z beach: The basis exists, but it is not usable.
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2014-12-21T08:03:53Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2014-12-21T08:03:57Z pjb: hemlock in ccl/cocoa is usable. portable hemlock is barely usable (could probably be made usable easily).
2014-12-21T08:04:15Z pjb: The most horrible thing in portable hemlock is the use of a different frame for the minibuffer.
2014-12-21T08:04:26Z Quadrescence: yikes
2014-12-21T08:04:40Z pjb: In ratpoison it's a catastrophe.
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2014-12-21T08:06:58Z Quadrescence: beach, the ultimate problem is that it seems there's a lot of yak shaving required
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2014-12-21T08:17:43Z beach: Quadrescence: For what?
2014-12-21T08:18:02Z Quadrescence: In working on such a project.
2014-12-21T08:18:13Z Quadrescence: I guess if I was a professor, maybe I could do it. :)
2014-12-21T08:18:16Z beach: Yeah, that's probably true.
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2014-12-21T12:40:10Z zophy: Lisp has devoured my soul
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2014-12-21T13:02:28Z beach: zophy: Sorry to hear that.
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2014-12-21T13:04:28Z Xach: axion: the suspense is killing me!
2014-12-21T13:05:09Z beach: drmeister: Perhaps once Cleavir is finished, you might end up abandoning LLVM in favor of it. :)
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2014-12-21T14:37:02Z drmeister: beach: There's a thought - but then I'd loose C++ interop.
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2014-12-21T15:03:30Z beach: drmeister: I don't quite see how C++ interoperability requires LLVM, but maybe it would require too much work to make Cleavir do what is required.
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2014-12-21T15:08:41Z beach: drmeister: I mean, isn't C++ runtime support quite simple compared to that of Common Lisp?  The source language is horribly complicated, of course, but who cares.
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2014-12-21T15:12:39Z pjb: It's not so simple.  There's a lot of link-time and run-time abstractions (eg. name mangling, virtual tables, etc).
2014-12-21T15:12:56Z pjb: Therefore it is very convenient to use the same compiler backend to generate them.
2014-12-21T15:13:02Z pjb: llvm = clang.
2014-12-21T15:13:10Z beach: Hmm.  Yes, I see.
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2014-12-21T15:19:31Z pjb: On the other hand, I assume codops could be added to Clearvir to be able to generate C++ bindings.  Did you include anything for normal C bindings?  That would allow for easy ffi.
2014-12-21T15:20:04Z pjb: Sorry I didn't think of that when we were reviewing Clearvir.
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2014-12-21T15:20:26Z beach: I think MIR code is pretty standard intermediate representation so it should work for C as well.
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2014-12-21T15:27:03Z drmeister: beach: I don't know the answers to your questions - I only know that it works now and that no one else has C++ interop other than boost::python and luabind - both use lots of C++ template programming.
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2014-12-21T15:28:13Z drmeister: It is much more straightforward to interoperate with C than with C++.
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2014-12-21T15:28:44Z beach: Yeah, OK.
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2014-12-21T15:34:45Z drmeister: It's also that the C++ standard keeps uh "advancing". So to maintain C++ interop going forward it makes sense to stick with LLVM/Clang.
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2014-12-21T15:38:19Z JuanDaugherty: yeah but some people just blow off the latter day c++ suffixing/bike 1shedding
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2014-12-21T15:39:07Z JuanDaugherty: or I guess from their perspective it's keeping c/c++ a vital responsive lang
2014-12-21T15:39:12Z JuanDaugherty: the thing we don't want
2014-12-21T15:39:20Z axion: Xach: i talked to the maintainer, and he wants to add one more feature still before it's submitted. He doesn't think it's complete enough yet
2014-12-21T15:41:30Z drmeister: There's a lot to be said for the approach that C++ has taken, add new features while not breaking old code.  It's very pragmatic.  I was watching a tech-talk on Microsoft Office development.  It's all C++ and they have a common core of 95% C++ across Windows, Mac OS X, iOS, Android.
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2014-12-21T15:42:40Z JuanDaugherty: it's still the most popular lang
2014-12-21T15:42:59Z drmeister: Much of the core code was written 30 years ago and modified since then.
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2014-12-21T15:43:15Z drmeister: What other languages would support that?
2014-12-21T15:44:07Z JuanDaugherty: cl, kinda
2014-12-21T15:45:39Z JuanDaugherty: if implementations were as conforming as c/c++ compilers have to be
2014-12-21T15:48:26Z Shinmera: Apparently PAIP's 22 year old Eliza code runs unchanged on current SBCL
2014-12-21T15:48:35Z Shinmera: So we have that going
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2014-12-21T15:51:49Z davorb: drmeister, don't forget cobol!
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2014-12-21T15:53:13Z drmeister: Ok, but say what you will about MS-Office - the world runs on it.  This is why I believe C++ will continue to be important.  This is part of why I want C++/Common Lisp interoperation.  It's a very pragmatic approach.  I'll get to program in Common Lisp and use C++ libraries.
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2014-12-21T15:53:46Z Shinmera: drmeister: embrace, extend, extinguish?
2014-12-21T15:54:14Z Xach: axion: what project is it?
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2014-12-21T15:56:34Z axion: Xach: glkit/mathkit
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2014-12-21T15:57:44Z wasamasa: drmeister: as long as I don't need to recompile template-heavy C++ code all the time I'm hacking on it
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2014-12-21T16:04:26Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-12-21T16:05:17Z drmeister: Shinmera: I don't know about "extinguish" an excellent domain specific language for laying out memory efficient data structures and working with them on the stack.
2014-12-21T16:05:37Z drmeister: Good morning nyef.
2014-12-21T16:06:32Z zophy: G' f'k ya'll ya an yer blimey sn't f'ced mum is wut !
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2014-12-21T16:07:41Z drmeister: beach: I'll keep that idea in mind though, the idea of using all of Cleavir's backend.
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2014-12-21T17:01:32Z wooden_: in common lisp: i have a symbol that is a key from a plist, :keyname.  For each of these key names that starts with a colon I want to get a string that is the key name without the colon, e.g. "keyname".  How can I do that?
2014-12-21T17:02:59Z Shinmera: I'm not entirely sure I understand you
2014-12-21T17:02:59Z |3b|: clhs symbol-name
2014-12-21T17:02:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_2.htm
2014-12-21T17:03:09Z Shinmera: But you can call STRING on keywords to get the name
2014-12-21T17:03:17Z Shinmera: or STRING-DOWNCASE if you want it in lowercase always
2014-12-21T17:03:17Z wooden_: thanks, all
2014-12-21T17:03:20Z |3b|: the symbol name is actually "KEYWORD" though
2014-12-21T17:03:32Z |3b|: "KEYNAME" i mean
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2014-12-21T17:03:57Z Shinmera: Given standard readtable case.
2014-12-21T17:04:02Z |3b|: right
2014-12-21T17:04:21Z Shinmera should test all his libraries to see if they work with different readtable cases some day
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2014-12-21T17:04:34Z |3b| assumes anyone who actually cares will tell me
2014-12-21T17:04:52Z |3b|: and provide patches if they want it to work if it doesn't :p
2014-12-21T17:05:04Z |3b|: (which has actually happened before, so never know)
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2014-12-21T17:05:43Z nyef: I assume that the readtable case is the default, as specified by the standard. If it's not, then fix your environment. d-:
2014-12-21T17:07:49Z |3b|: Shinmera: be sure to also test the various settings of default float size, integer base, etc :)
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2014-12-21T17:08:38Z Shinmera: Well, I'm just a bit antsy about the readtable case because I know I've used shortcuts at places where I probably could've just as easily done it right.
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2014-12-21T17:38:20Z wooden_: |3b|, Shinmera: one more question, if i have a string "keyname" and want to turn it into a plist key :keyname, how can i do that?
2014-12-21T17:38:41Z |3b|: it isn't specific to plists
2014-12-21T17:38:45Z |3b|: plists can use any symbol
2014-12-21T17:39:09Z Shinmera: They can use any object in fact, provided you use the right test to compare identity.
2014-12-21T17:39:12Z |3b|: :keyname is a symbol in the package named "KEYWORD" (more or less equivalent to keyword::keyname)
2014-12-21T17:39:13Z wooden_: |3b|: yes, i could use a string, but i want a symbol to be consistent with usage elsewhere in the code
2014-12-21T17:39:41Z axion: maybe: (intern "KEYNAME" "KEYWORD")
2014-12-21T17:39:43Z |3b|: and like other symbols, keyword symbols are converted to uppercase when READ by default
2014-12-21T17:40:07Z |3b|: so to do the equivalent by hand, you need to uppercase the string and intern it into keyword package
2014-12-21T17:40:38Z |3b|: something like (intern (string-upcase "keyname") :keyword)
2014-12-21T17:41:10Z wooden_: |3b|, Shinmera, axion: thanks!
2014-12-21T17:41:17Z |3b|: or find-symbol if you expect the keyword to already exist and don't trust the input
2014-12-21T17:41:21Z Shinmera: Alexandria also has a MAKE-KEYWORD
2014-12-21T17:41:39Z wooden_: nice
2014-12-21T17:41:45Z nyef: ... I still like using DESTRUCTURING-BIND on plists.
2014-12-21T17:42:25Z _death: also consider that if the set of keys is fixed you can make sure they're interned and using FIND-SYMBOL at runtime
2014-12-21T17:42:47Z _death: like in http://paste.lisp.org/display/144848
2014-12-21T17:42:59Z nyef: If the set of keys is fixed, you can use your own hash table instead of a full-on keyword-package lookup.
2014-12-21T17:43:46Z _death: nyef: sure, but that may be overkill :)
2014-12-21T17:44:18Z nyef: "There is no such thing as overkill, there is only ``open fire'' and ``I need to reload''."
2014-12-21T17:44:30Z nyef: Alternately, "there's no kill like overkill."
2014-12-21T17:49:14Z Shinmera: Actually, is there a lib that'll generate an optimised hash table for a given set of keys?
2014-12-21T17:50:26Z _death: a long time ago I thought about a Lisp version of gperf, but haven't got around to implementing such a thing
2014-12-21T17:51:47Z wooden_: there is a stack overflow page about my question, but i couldn't find it until i had all the keywords you guys just gave me.  thanks.  http://stackoverflow.com/questions/211717/common-lisp-programmatic-keyword
2014-12-21T17:52:20Z Shinmera: Stack Overflow is sadly not very good when it comes to CL questions.
2014-12-21T17:52:34Z Shinmera: As in, things are hard to find and many things just aren't on it.
2014-12-21T17:52:36Z akkad: we should fix that with a bot here to take Q&A
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2014-12-21T17:53:09Z _death: whenever I have/had a question about Lisp I search c.l.l
2014-12-21T17:54:02Z Shinmera: So far I've been able to answer everything with Google, the Hyperspec and lots of M-. -ing
2014-12-21T17:54:10Z _death: (of course if it's not in the spec etc.)
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2014-12-21T17:54:47Z akkad: clhs.org mode file helped me
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2014-12-21T19:14:44Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144853 how can i now loop across the output, and do something for each element? i tried (loop for (n v uv c) across output ..) but that seems to bind to the first row. i need to process each element of all 4 rows of output in order. sorry if this doesnt make sense. thanks
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2014-12-21T19:36:16Z axion: could anyone offer suggestions on my paste please? not sure if anyone saw it with the netsplit
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2014-12-21T19:49:52Z rpg: axion: I saw this. Don't understand: why do you smash everything into output, if you want to process all the elements? why not treat them separately?
2014-12-21T19:50:40Z rpg: like finally (loop for i from 0 below (length normals) as norm = (aref normals i) as vert = (aref vertices i) ... and so forth
2014-12-21T19:51:23Z rpg: seems like stuffing the separate values in a single array (output) just makes your life more difficult.
2014-12-21T19:51:52Z axion: indeed. i've been making my job hard
2014-12-21T19:52:02Z axion: my buddy just annotated the paste. gonna rethink this
2014-12-21T19:52:49Z rpg: You could also do this with the ACROSS iteration pattern, avoiding the AREF entirely.
2014-12-21T19:53:26Z axion: hmm
2014-12-21T19:54:01Z rpg: If you want to return the stuff to another function that is going to catch and handle it, you could use VALUES to return multiple values, instead of doing the array return, and then catch the return value with MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND.
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2014-12-21T19:54:33Z rpg: I have to go now.  Good luck!
2014-12-21T19:54:42Z axion: thanks :)
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2014-12-21T20:14:06Z pjb: axion: I didn't answer because you asked a senseless question. ie. WFM: http://paste.lisp.org/+33RP/2
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2014-12-21T20:51:13Z mikybounce: ciao
2014-12-21T20:51:19Z mikybounce: !list
2014-12-21T20:51:31Z mikybounce: !list
2014-12-21T20:51:52Z Shinmera: What are you trying to achieve
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2014-12-21T21:01:30Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, a list of the extensive Lisp warez!
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2014-12-21T21:02:42Z Shinmera: Quadrescence: Count me in!
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2014-12-21T22:40:34Z davorb: axion, i didn't look at it and i have no idea what you are trying to do, but you can either map or reduce to solve your problem
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2014-12-21T22:44:59Z wooden_: is it possible to use strings as keys in plists?  this just creates two keys "mykey" with different values.  (let ((p nil)) (setf (getf p "mykey") 256) (setf (getf p "mykey") 512) p)
2014-12-21T22:47:02Z nyef: clhs getf
2014-12-21T22:47:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
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2014-12-21T22:47:41Z nyef: Apparently not, the requirement is that keys by comparable under EQ.
2014-12-21T22:47:46Z nyef: Which also means no numbers.
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2014-12-21T22:49:03Z wooden_: nyef: drat. okay. thank you.
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2014-12-21T23:32:26Z AeroNotix: can I add my own format specifiers ?
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2014-12-21T23:33:52Z Bicyclidine: no, but you can use ~// to call arbitrary functions
2014-12-21T23:34:03Z AeroNotix: Bicyclidine: cool, thanks, could be interesting.
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