2014-12-17T00:00:04Z nikki93: or should I put all my lisp stuff in ~/Development/lisp and make asdf look there? ideally I wouldn't segregate based on language like that 2014-12-17T00:02:05Z Bicyclidine: huh, there's no tree with depth. well, why not try tree first and see how it works. 2014-12-17T00:02:06Z minion: Bicyclidine, memo from pjb: clisp is an implementation, scheme is a language. Two entirely different categories. 2014-12-17T00:02:17Z Bicyclidine: i have no idea what that is in reference to 2014-12-17T00:06:45Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:07:01Z akkad: and CL is a standard and ojure is an implementation 2014-12-17T00:07:14Z nikki93: akkad: clojure u mean? 2014-12-17T00:07:34Z akkad: if you wish to combine them sure 2014-12-17T00:07:43Z nikki93: wut 2014-12-17T00:07:54Z akkad: PLTScheme 2014-12-17T00:08:05Z akkad: ojureCL 2014-12-17T00:08:23Z nikki93: cool 2014-12-17T00:11:45Z zRecursi` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:13:35Z Xach: nikki93: asdf will only find system files named *.asd. it won't be bothered by other projects in other languages in there. it might slow things down a little bit if you have hundreds or thousands of subdirectories. 2014-12-17T00:13:57Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-12-17T00:14:13Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-17T00:25:05Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T00:25:29Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:25:49Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:25:57Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T00:31:10Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T00:35:07Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:44:40Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:48:48Z ynniv: “univeral” time can’t be before 1900 and has functions that like to use an implicit timezone, encoded time isn’t easily compared, and while simple-date-time has a *default-timezone* it sometimes defers to the hidden one used by universal time. 2014-12-17T00:49:00Z ynniv: Am I missing something or is dealing with time just annoying? 2014-12-17T00:49:10Z Xach: dealing with time is painful 2014-12-17T00:49:41Z Xach: http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html has a paper on the topic 2014-12-17T00:49:42Z ynniv: That makes me feel better about writing something from scratch. 2014-12-17T00:50:01Z Xach: well, local-time i think aims to make it less painful. but i don't know to what degree it achieves its goals. 2014-12-17T00:50:06Z ynniv: Ah, that looks useful. 2014-12-17T00:50:44Z ynniv: At least I won’t feel like I’m re-reinventing the wheel. :-) 2014-12-17T00:51:35Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:51:56Z ynniv: BTW, I’m sure that you hear this at least once a day, but I wouldn’t be using CL without quicklisp; it’s awesome. 2014-12-17T00:52:49Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T00:53:34Z Xach: i'm glad to hear it every time 2014-12-17T00:53:56Z nikki93: smartparens vs paredit? 2014-12-17T00:54:01Z Guest7272 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T00:54:40Z wasamasa: nikki93: /join #emacs 2014-12-17T00:54:48Z nikki93: actually I just asked there hehe 2014-12-17T00:55:08Z nikki93: wondering what u pros thoughts are 2014-12-17T00:55:44Z ack006: hrrrgh, these people have no sense of history: http://lispmob.org/ 2014-12-17T00:55:48Z wasamasa: besides, you should put a bit more effort in your question if you want any serious answer 2014-12-17T00:56:03Z ack006: why call something lisp when it isn't? 2014-12-17T00:56:04Z wasamasa: ack006: I expected to see a picture of angry lispers 2014-12-17T00:56:14Z ack006: wasamasa: :-) 2014-12-17T00:56:22Z wasamasa: ack006: I am disappointed 2014-12-17T00:56:25Z nikki93: k ... seems paredit is stricter, smartparens isn't. I was wondering if someone had experience with both and could talk about which they've preferred 2014-12-17T00:56:27Z ack006: grrrr 2014-12-17T00:56:44Z ack006: well, here is one :-( 2014-12-17T00:57:50Z ack006: and this should have been rejected the moment it hit the inbox: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6830 2014-12-17T00:58:10Z ack006: not the tech itself, but the name. for crying out loud 2014-12-17T00:58:17Z ikki quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-12-17T00:59:45Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:02:17Z Guest7272: that project was originally developed by cisco. did no one know? 2014-12-17T01:02:18Z Guest7272: wow 2014-12-17T01:02:43Z ack006: guess they were too young :-) 2014-12-17T01:03:10Z Xach: They knew, and threw in plenty of terrible puns. 2014-12-17T01:03:47Z Xach: Hmm, the rfc doesn't show as many as i remember. 2014-12-17T01:04:48Z ack006: they even stole the logo design!1!! 2014-12-17T01:04:56Z ack006: http://xahlee.info/UnixResource_dir/gki/lambda/logoUebersicht.jpg 2014-12-17T01:05:03Z ack006: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Lisp-logo.jpg 2014-12-17T01:05:54Z ack006: and completely denaturalized it, made it lifeless 2014-12-17T01:07:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:08:52Z Xach: I'm assuming the "!1!!" is meant to indicate irony 2014-12-17T01:09:03Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:09:10Z Guest7272: heh 2014-12-17T01:12:13Z eudoxia_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T01:12:24Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:16:07Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:16:21Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-17T01:16:46Z malice joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:17:04Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:18:09Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:19:48Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:20:08Z srcerer quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-17T01:21:09Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-17T01:22:39Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:26:58Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:30:50Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-17T01:32:54Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:36:37Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:38:57Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T01:38:57Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:44:43Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:47:28Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:48:05Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:50:39Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:51:25Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:53:13Z CrazyM4n joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:56:24Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-12-17T01:58:26Z Puffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T01:59:21Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T01:59:46Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:03:25Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:03:29Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T02:09:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-17T02:15:27Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-12-17T02:15:42Z CrazyM4n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T02:17:18Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:21:22Z ack006 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T02:21:31Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:23:00Z malice quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T02:23:17Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T02:27:04Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:28:00Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-12-17T02:28:26Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T02:31:42Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-17T02:32:24Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:34:35Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:35:55Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:41:38Z hentleman joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:43:05Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:43:31Z hentleman: hello. 2014-12-17T02:44:19Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:45:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T02:45:31Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T02:45:43Z hentleman: before question, i'm not good at english. so if i say rude thing, then it's not what i mean... 2014-12-17T02:46:05Z Zhivago: Fair enough. 2014-12-17T02:46:15Z hentleman: i study lisp during 2 month. 2014-12-17T02:46:17Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T02:46:51Z Zhivago: What language do you speak well, btw? 2014-12-17T02:46:55Z hentleman: and i love its simplity and property 2014-12-17T02:47:01Z hentleman: korean 2014-12-17T02:47:56Z Zhivago: Algessupnida. 2014-12-17T02:48:31Z hentleman: so, i talk about good thing of lisp with my friend. 2014-12-17T02:50:29Z Zhivago: That sounds good. 2014-12-17T02:50:45Z hentleman: but, my friend talk me "i don't know why you study lisp. lisp's property, like first order function, so on, is supported by recent language 2014-12-17T02:50:58Z Zhivago: That is true. 2014-12-17T02:51:20Z Zhivago: Perhaps macros are the last remaining thing. 2014-12-17T02:51:29Z hentleman: yeah. 2014-12-17T02:51:36Z hentleman: i talk it... 2014-12-17T02:51:52Z Zhivago: The other reason is that lisp can be very simple, and this can help to understand 'what it means to be a programming language'. 2014-12-17T02:52:27Z hentleman: but my friend talk "lisp is not easy to read...." 2014-12-17T02:52:57Z hentleman: its respons, i do not explain about that.. 2014-12-17T02:53:10Z Zhivago: I think there is some truth to that. 2014-12-17T02:53:27Z Zhivago: There is only one basic form, so it is regular, but more ambiguous. 2014-12-17T02:53:47Z Zhivago: x[y] gives a strong signal for that particular form, but is limited. 2014-12-17T02:54:03Z Zhivago: (aref x y) gives a weaker signal, but is regular. 2014-12-17T02:54:07Z Zhivago: There is less magic. 2014-12-17T02:54:26Z hentleman: so, i talk to friend. "lisp's simple grammer make easy to code generation" 2014-12-17T02:54:31Z Zhivago: Maybe this can be interesting to you -- http://thelittlelisper.blogspot.kr/2010/09/steve-yegge-how-many-primitives-does-it.html 2014-12-17T02:54:43Z Zhivago: That's also true -- and it is back to macros. :) 2014-12-17T02:54:52Z hentleman: yeah haha... 2014-12-17T02:55:03Z Zhivago: But you could argue that sweetjs provides something similar to javascript ... 2014-12-17T02:55:48Z hentleman: it like ... i'm excuse friend about lisp (i don't know, it's correct answer).. 2014-12-17T02:55:55Z hentleman: oh 2014-12-17T02:57:29Z wooden: in cl there's #'clrhash to clear a hash table; is there an equivalent function to clear a list/vector, or should i just use assignment of '()? 2014-12-17T02:58:13Z Zhivago: Adjustable vectors can be resized. Clearing a list is not meaningful. 2014-12-17T02:58:56Z Zhivago: An empty list being nil, you cannot produce an empty list by modifying a non-empty list. 2014-12-17T03:00:02Z wooden: Zhivago: how do you resize a list to 0 then? 2014-12-17T03:00:11Z ynniv: CL also has a radically different notion of exception handling 2014-12-17T03:00:49Z wooden: Zhivago: sorry, i mean vector 2014-12-17T03:01:38Z hentleman: thank you for answer zhivago. it's very helpful. 2014-12-17T03:02:13Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T03:02:57Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:02:58Z Zhivago: wooden: Perhaps (setf (fill-pointer vector) 0) is what you want? 2014-12-17T03:03:17Z Zhivago: bbiaw. 2014-12-17T03:05:33Z hentleman quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-12-17T03:05:48Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T03:06:01Z a20141212 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:06:13Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:07:26Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T03:07:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:15:00Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T03:18:15Z Zhivago: CL's notion of exception handling isn't particularly radical, imho -- it just keeps the signaling and transfer phases separate. 2014-12-17T03:18:50Z White_Flame: CL has a rich type system, too 2014-12-17T03:19:50Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:19:52Z White_Flame: wooden: Technically, a list's length is determined by where NIL is found. Therefore, setting the list value itself to nil "resizes" that list to length 0 2014-12-17T03:20:13Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T03:27:42Z Zhivago: You cannot set a value in CL. 2014-12-17T03:28:16Z Zhivago: CL's type system may be rich, but it is not particularly extensible and suffers from undecidability issues. 2014-12-17T03:28:28Z julianb joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:28:35Z dmiles joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:28:50Z Zhivago: And as with most other things, vendors are allowed to essentially opt-out of anything that would require them to think hard. 2014-12-17T03:28:51Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T03:29:22Z Zhivago: One particularly annoying deficit is the lack of support for recursive types. 2014-12-17T03:30:25Z White_Flame: s/list value itself/place of the list value itself/ 2014-12-17T03:31:05Z Zhivago: Which is nothing to do with the list, and may be multiple. 2014-12-17T03:34:17Z White_Flame: Right, if multiple places are referencing the same list (ie, same starting cons value), there's no destructive modification you can do to the shared structure to make both places refer to an empty list 2014-12-17T03:35:31Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1) 2014-12-17T03:39:09Z protist joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:39:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:39:19Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T03:40:09Z protist: I have an if statement of the form (if (print x) (some code) (error "error 1"))...the print is printing nil, but the error is still occuring 2014-12-17T03:40:12Z protist: I am confused 2014-12-17T03:40:44Z White_Flame: what does (print x) return? 2014-12-17T03:41:02Z protist: White_Flame: should return nil if it is printing nil 2014-12-17T03:41:15Z White_Flame: then it will take the 'else' clause, right? 2014-12-17T03:41:37Z protist: White_Flame: wow total brain fart 2014-12-17T03:41:41Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:41:42Z protist: White_Flame: thanks hahaha 2014-12-17T03:41:55Z White_Flame: np 2014-12-17T03:43:52Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:44:26Z CrazyM4n joined #lisp 2014-12-17T03:45:19Z Hexstream left #lisp 2014-12-17T03:56:47Z wooden: Zhivago: is setting the fill-pointer back to 0 effectively the same as deleting all the elements of the vector? will the memory be free'd? 2014-12-17T03:56:57Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T03:58:53Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:00:16Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T04:00:42Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:02:35Z nyef: wooden: No, the memory will not be deallocated, and re-incrementing the fill-pointer will reveal the data that was hidden by setting it to zero in the first place. 2014-12-17T04:05:46Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T04:05:54Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T04:06:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:07:38Z wooden: nyef: is there one function that will delete all the elements in the list? in python i can do: del mylist[:] 2014-12-17T04:08:07Z nyef: For a list or for a vector? 2014-12-17T04:08:13Z wooden: nyef: vector, sorry 2014-12-17T04:08:59Z nyef: It's a bit situational, but is there a reason you can't just discard the vector and allocate a fresh empty one? 2014-12-17T04:09:22Z wooden: nyef: no, just wasn't sure whether if that was the better approach. 2014-12-17T04:10:12Z wooden: nyef: if there was an equivalent to the clrhash function that worked on vectors why not use it, but it doesn't sound like there is 2014-12-17T04:10:16Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:10:31Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T04:10:31Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:11:00Z nyef: You could fill the vector with a known value, but I rather suspect that you're looking at a case of premature optimization. 2014-12-17T04:12:41Z nyef: There's also ADJUST-ARRAY 2014-12-17T04:12:50Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-12-17T04:13:10Z nyef: But that depends on the array being actually adjustable (I believe that's the term, as opposed to explicitly adjustable). 2014-12-17T04:15:59Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:18:51Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:19:03Z beach joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:19:11Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-12-17T04:19:44Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T04:20:10Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:22:15Z chu_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:22:17Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:23:33Z Zhivago: wooden: It's important to understand that a list is not an item in CL, but a pattern of data -- much like a string is in C. 2014-12-17T04:24:07Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:26:44Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-12-17T04:28:10Z harish joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:30:00Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-17T04:30:19Z julianb quit (Quit: Goodbye) 2014-12-17T04:43:00Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:43:02Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:43:24Z beach: nyef: I guess constants must be treated exactly like closed-over variables, right? Otherwise, they might be retained as well. 2014-12-17T04:44:19Z nyef: Constants? Those should associate to the function, not to an activation frame or closure, surely? 2014-12-17T04:44:30Z nyef: Or do you mean variables which are not mutated? 2014-12-17T04:44:48Z beach: No I meant constants. 2014-12-17T04:45:16Z nyef: Mmm. Constants should be referenced by the (compiled) function, not by its activation frames or closures. 2014-12-17T04:45:50Z beach: (lambda (x) (ff x '(huge list)) (gg (lambda (y) ...))) 2014-12-17T04:45:51Z bb010g joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:46:03Z shortCircuit__ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:46:33Z beach: Where do you put the huge list? 2014-12-17T04:46:55Z nyef: Well, a reference to it becomes part of the compiled function. 2014-12-17T04:47:40Z beach: OK, so (lambda (x) (ff x '(huge list)) (gg (lambda (y) (hh '(another list))))) 2014-12-17T04:47:46Z nyef: Beyond that, it's basically heap data... 2014-12-17T04:47:47Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:47:59Z beach: Where do you put '(another huge list)? 2014-12-17T04:48:22Z beach: Yes, I know where to allocate it. But where do you put a reference to it? 2014-12-17T04:49:01Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:49:24Z nyef: Typically, a function object, however it is represented, will have both boxed data for references to other functions, constants, whatever, and unboxed data for instructions, unboxed constants, and so on. 2014-12-17T04:49:44Z beach: But if the function object is a closure? 2014-12-17T04:49:54Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:50:17Z beach: Let me put together a more realistic example. Hold on... 2014-12-17T04:50:59Z nyef: Then it's not a constant reference, closures are allocated at runtime (but they include a reference to a function internally). 2014-12-17T04:51:44Z Colleen_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:51:50Z beach: I see. Difference in terminology. 2014-12-17T04:51:57Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:52:54Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-12-17T04:52:56Z beach: So, with your terminology, a closure CONTAINS a function and the constant is part of that function. 2014-12-17T04:53:23Z beach: So then, how is the constant passed to the function when the function is executed? 2014-12-17T04:53:30Z nyef: Yes. A closure is an environment plus a function which uses the environment. 2014-12-17T04:53:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:54:12Z beach: I wouldn't use that terminology, but I am willing to do it for the purpose of this discussion. 2014-12-17T04:54:14Z TrafficMan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:54:15Z bend3r quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:54:33Z beach: So how is the constant passed to the invocation of the function? 2014-12-17T04:55:00Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:55:01Z Colleen_ is now known as Colleen 2014-12-17T04:55:14Z beach: Do you pass the entire function object? 2014-12-17T04:55:25Z nyef: A function knows where its constants are typically either by PC-relative addressing or by knowing where to find itself (typically passed in a register) and from there knowing how to find its constants. 2014-12-17T04:55:50Z beach: Yes, I see. 2014-12-17T04:55:51Z beach: Thanks. 2014-12-17T04:56:09Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:57:03Z ft joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:57:18Z Rudolph-Miller quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:57:50Z nyef: So, going back to the terminology question, what terminology would you use? 2014-12-17T04:58:07Z Adeon quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:58:07Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:58:14Z Rudolph-Miller joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:58:23Z Adeon joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:58:27Z p_l|backup quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T04:58:30Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:58:31Z beach: I invented something like "code object" for what you call "function". 2014-12-17T04:58:43Z beach: Because it is not by itself a Common Lisp function. 2014-12-17T04:59:04Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-12-17T04:59:09Z beach: It is only a Common Lisp function when associated with an environment. 2014-12-17T05:00:01Z p_l|backup joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:00:41Z edran_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:00:45Z nyef: I'm coming from the SBCL world, where we have code-objects that contain the constants vector and a number of embedded function objects, and where closures have a "closure-fun" slot which contains a function object that takes an extra register parameter for the closure when called. 2014-12-17T05:00:46Z edran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T05:00:49Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:00:51Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:01:46Z beach: OK. 2014-12-17T05:02:23Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T05:04:14Z ivan\ quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-17T05:04:28Z TrafficMan joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:04:29Z beach: So the SBCL code-object is the result of compiling potentially several functions in a file? 2014-12-17T05:04:43Z edran_ quit (Excess Flood) 2014-12-17T05:04:53Z nyef: In theory yes, in practice not so often. 2014-12-17T05:05:07Z beach: Why not so often in practice? 2014-12-17T05:05:33Z nyef: Because the block compilation stuff is never used and very likely bit-rotted. 2014-12-17T05:05:42Z beach: I see. 2014-12-17T05:05:53Z nyef: So the only way to get multiple top-level functions in a code-object is probably a top-level closure. 2014-12-17T05:05:55Z edran joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:05:57Z nyef: ... I think. 2014-12-17T05:06:34Z beach: If it is used and constants for all functions in a file are allocated there, then if a function is redefined, say interactively, then a constant would be retained? 2014-12-17T05:06:45Z nyef: But there are also separate function objects for the closure-functions of any externally-referencable closures. 2014-12-17T05:07:37Z nyef: In a block-compile situation? Yes. Along with the code for the old version of the function until there were no more inbound references to the original code-object. 2014-12-17T05:07:45Z beach: Right. 2014-12-17T05:08:10Z beach: What is an externally-referencable closure? 2014-12-17T05:08:25Z nyef: But you'd also be looking at issues with CLHS 3.2.2.3. 2014-12-17T05:09:09Z nyef: A closure which is passed as a parameter outside the function or which is returned as a value from the function, basically. 2014-12-17T05:09:46Z beach: Got it. 2014-12-17T05:09:53Z beach: Thanks. 2014-12-17T05:10:32Z nyef: Basically, it might not even need a full activation frame on the stack, or if it does then the caller can initialize its closure environment directly, rather than having to allocate an external closure object. 2014-12-17T05:11:51Z drmeister: nyef: Your code-objects sound like LLVM Modules. 2014-12-17T05:12:04Z nyef: It wouldn't surprise me in the least. 2014-12-17T05:12:14Z nyef: We're all coming from different backgrounds here. (-: 2014-12-17T05:12:15Z CrazyM4n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T05:12:38Z notty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T05:14:37Z drmeister: I have a problem figuring out when there are no more inbound references to a Module. I don't have a way of dealing with it. 2014-12-17T05:14:47Z beach: nyef: At some point, for SICL I decided it wasn't necessary to have separate concepts for what you call "code object" and what you call "function object". 2014-12-17T05:15:14Z notty joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:15:21Z beach: nyef: The closure would just contain an entry point address into the "code object". 2014-12-17T05:15:30Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-12-17T05:15:57Z nyef: drmeister: Aren't they boxed references? Your worst-case scenario should be a full heap sweep to set mark bits for each Module. 2014-12-17T05:16:13Z leo2007 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T05:16:34Z nyef: beach: Yes, but for GC purposes it is very helpful for it to be a boxed address, hence the full function header. 2014-12-17T05:17:40Z nyef: Oh, and for function-calling purposes as well. There are two different ways to call a function, and there's some magic to make sure it works for the four different types of functions. 2014-12-17T05:19:25Z nyef: (Simple, Closure, Funcallable-Instance, and Undefined.) 2014-12-17T05:19:25Z stacksmith quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T05:19:25Z beach: Oh, OK. :) 2014-12-17T05:19:25Z drmeister: nyef: I suppose I do have them in boxed address' 2014-12-17T05:19:43Z drmeister: My plan was to figure out how to get LLVM to generate relocatable code, and how to get them compiled into GC managed memory and then let the GC deal with them. 2014-12-17T05:19:47Z nyef: And, as I said, there are two ways to call a function. One way is if you have a boxed function object, and the other is if you have an "fdefn" object (for a named function reference). 2014-12-17T05:20:12Z nyef: And the reason for the "fdefn" is so that a named function can be redefined. It's a level of indirection. 2014-12-17T05:21:09Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:25:44Z pjb: wooden: notice that there is no list abstract data type in lisp. Therefore there cannot be a clear list operation. In lisp, the list type is (or null cons). How do you "clear" NIL? How do you "clear" a cons? Not all vectors have fill-pointers. For those who have it, then setting it to 0 could be the equivalent of clrhash, but for the others, cf. previous about cons. 2014-12-17T05:25:54Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:26:01Z pjb: wooden: (setf *my-list* nil) usually is all you need. 2014-12-17T05:27:47Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T05:27:58Z drmeister: Does SBCL manage code with its garbage collector? Is code copied around in memory? 2014-12-17T05:28:11Z Kanae quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T05:31:05Z stacksmith joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:33:17Z nyef: drmeister: Yes, and yes. 2014-12-17T05:34:19Z nyef: It'd be nice if code objects weren't moved, but there are plenty of subtle (and not so subtle) issues currently preventing it. 2014-12-17T05:38:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:41:05Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-17T05:42:23Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:46:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:46:50Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T05:46:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-17T05:46:54Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T05:53:41Z Fare: on the mill architecture, you'll have an "interesting" time making a function pointer a boxed address... :-) 2014-12-17T05:53:43Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-12-17T05:56:31Z a20141212 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-12-17T06:00:07Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T06:00:55Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-12-17T06:07:40Z drmeister: My code don't move - it's a bit of a problem for me. 2014-12-17T06:07:45Z drmeister: doesn't move 2014-12-17T06:08:04Z beach: drmeister: So code doesn't get collected by the GC? 2014-12-17T06:08:22Z drmeister: No. 2014-12-17T06:10:17Z hekmek joined #lisp 2014-12-17T06:10:21Z drmeister: I'd have to figure out two things to achieve that. Have LLVM generate relocatable code and generate the code at a specific memory address. 2014-12-17T06:11:15Z beach: Having it generate position-independent code is even better. 2014-12-17T06:11:39Z drmeister: I think then it would work because return addresses on the stack would pin code that was currently executing or waiting to be returned to. 2014-12-17T06:12:12Z drmeister: I was sloppy, that is what I meant - position-independent code. 2014-12-17T06:12:12Z beach: Or the GC would update the return address. 2014-12-17T06:12:31Z drmeister: The GC is conservative with stack pointers. 2014-12-17T06:12:38Z chu_ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-12-17T06:13:26Z nyef: You can't allocate the Modules in a non-relocating heap space? 2014-12-17T06:15:07Z drmeister: That's what happens now. Do you mean don't move them but do garbage collect them? 2014-12-17T06:15:24Z drmeister: Fragmentation is a problem then. 2014-12-17T06:15:55Z nyef: Yes, fragmentation can be a problem, but you're at least making SOME progress at that point. 2014-12-17T06:16:41Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-12-17T06:16:42Z drmeister: Is just letting them accumulate a serious problem? I'm starting to think it is now that I have SLIME. 2014-12-17T06:17:33Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-17T06:18:03Z nyef: That's a determination that you have to make for yourself, I'm afraid. 2014-12-17T06:20:00Z drmeister: We'll see, and I've been thinking about the problem. Position independent code is an LLVM option - I just haven't explored it yet. Getting LLVM to generate the code into a specific memory location should also be doable. At that point a compiled module would just look like a big data structure with a bunch of internal pointers (function pointers) into it. 2014-12-17T06:20:34Z drmeister: Code as data - data as code. 2014-12-17T06:21:02Z nyef: Heh. An important consideration for a compiler writer. (-: 2014-12-17T06:22:03Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2014-12-17T06:22:04Z drmeister: First class functions better be damn useful. Because I can trace all of these problems back to them. 2014-12-17T06:23:16Z Bike: on occasion 2014-12-17T06:24:35Z drmeister: I better get to bed. I'm finding C-c C-c in SLIME is trickier to implement properly than I thought. 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I would like to know the "offical" names for systems in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and those in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ 2014-12-17T08:20:04Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-17T08:20:12Z gabriel_laddel: eg, are these "local systems" and "external" systems or...? 2014-12-17T08:21:57Z gabriel_laddel: also are there any documents you've published re, the why and wherefore of quicklisp outside of your personal blog and the quicklisp blog? 2014-12-17T08:22:46Z jusss` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:22:53Z gmcastil` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-17T08:26:12Z hekmek joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:27:12Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:29:28Z nikki93: how do you guys name your systems? for example I have some live coding utilities I might use in multiple projects, which listens for swank events and makes stuff continuable in case of error -- is it safe to put it in a package called "live"? 2014-12-17T08:31:46Z gabriel_laddel: nikki93: I name my systems the same as my packages. are you asking what to name your package or asdf system? 2014-12-17T08:32:30Z nikki93: the thing is, I want to name them something short so I can use qualified names like package:blah 2014-12-17T08:32:40Z nikki93: but at teh same time not conflict with stuff other people make 2014-12-17T08:33:15Z gabriel_laddel: nikki93: afaik no one has a `check-for-package-name-conflicts' function yet. 2014-12-17T08:33:38Z gabriel_laddel: nikki93: it needs to happen, but if you happen to conflict with someone - eh, change it. 2014-12-17T08:33:40Z gabriel_laddel: nbd 2014-12-17T08:33:59Z gabriel_laddel: nikki93: as for your short name problem, see the :nicknames argument to defpackage. 2014-12-17T08:34:14Z gabriel_laddel: you can add nicknames like lv for live 2014-12-17T08:34:34Z nikki93: nicknames? omg 2014-12-17T08:34:37Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T08:34:41Z nikki93: lisp is awesome 2014-12-17T08:35:28Z gabriel_laddel: eg, (defpackage #:masamune (:nicknames :mm) (:export #:*alphabet* ... 2014-12-17T08:35:34Z gabriel_laddel: nikki93: lol. 2014-12-17T08:36:01Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:36:43Z Grue`: but nicknames also can conflict. the real solution would be local nicknames, but they're non-standard 2014-12-17T08:39:47Z _zxq9_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:39:57Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:41:26Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T08:41:52Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:43:07Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:44:08Z Shinmera: Mornin', #lisp 2014-12-17T08:44:28Z alpha-: hi 2014-12-17T08:44:45Z Shinmera: nydel: Anything to comment on Colleen ? 2014-12-17T08:47:04Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:47:20Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:49:38Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:50:52Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:50:57Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T08:51:19Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:52:43Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T08:52:46Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 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quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T11:58:06Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2014-12-17T11:59:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:00:01Z mrkkrp: is there any way to update asdf that's used by quicklisp? For example I need asdf 3.1+, but quicklisp uses now something like 3.0.2.. I've replaced quicklisp/asdf.lisp file but it doesn't help. quicklisp somehow loads old version anyway. I've deleted all cache, all fasls of quicklisp and reloaded it - no luck. Is it possible at all? 2014-12-17T12:01:33Z fe[nl]ix: mrkkrp: just make sure that asdf is loaded before you load quicklisp 2014-12-17T12:02:22Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T12:02:40Z harish joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:03:34Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:08:00Z oudeis quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-17T12:08:49Z mrkkrp: fe[nl]ix, yes it works... I guess Quicklisp has its own built-in version of asdf 2014-12-17T12:10:14Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:10:19Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T12:10:58Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:11:52Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:12:46Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:13:43Z Xach: mrkkrp: more likely that your implementation provides it, and quicklisp uses that. 2014-12-17T12:14:05Z Xach: the one quicklisp provides when there is no asdf at all is 2.26 2014-12-17T12:14:17Z aosentuh joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:15:03Z Xach: gabriel_laddel: no glossary, no non-blog docs aside from what's on quicklisp.org 2014-12-17T12:15:42Z mrkkrp: Xach, can I ask why doesn't it use more recent version of asdf? 2014-12-17T12:16:46Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-17T12:18:07Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T12:18:58Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-12-17T12:20:01Z mdcox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T12:21:03Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-12-17T12:26:10Z pjb: nikki93: if you're not connected to the internet (cf. the guy who spent 7 years in the Australian Bush with a 486 PC and rewrote his own OS), then you can name your systems and packages as you wish. Otherwise, I'd advise a reverse domain name prefix for all your systems and packages, like they do in java. You can add nicknames as a user, but you must not publish code with nicknames that don't have the reverse of your domain name as 2014-12-17T12:26:10Z pjb: prefix. 2014-12-17T12:26:41Z nikki93: pjb: I see 2014-12-17T12:27:07Z gabot joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:27:23Z nikki93: pjb: is there a way to make it so that in-package I use a certain nickname for other packages, but when that package is :used by other packages or otherwise loaded it doesn't bring those nicknames in? 2014-12-17T12:27:36Z nikki93: pjb: like private nickname 2014-12-17T12:27:38Z Xach: mrkkrp: ASDF 3 is very large with a complex set of changes, so I've deferred to implementations to provide a newer version. 2014-12-17T12:27:42Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-17T12:28:00Z Xach: nikki93: no standard way. it is possible in SBCL via an extension. 2014-12-17T12:28:04Z pjb: nikki93: there's no local or private nickname library that is widely used. 2014-12-17T12:28:16Z Xach: mrkkrp: most of them provide ASDF 3 in some form now. 2014-12-17T12:28:38Z pjb: Somebody would have to write a CDR and almost all implementations support it first. 2014-12-17T12:29:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:33:31Z aosentuh quit (Quit: aosentuh) 2014-12-17T12:34:38Z hzp joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:39:16Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-17T12:41:39Z PaleFire` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T12:42:45Z arcwest1 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2014-12-17T12:42:46Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:42:59Z Kanae joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:46:03Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:46:07Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T12:47:26Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:48:55Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-17T12:50:01Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:55:58Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-12-17T12:56:17Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T13:04:27Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:04:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:05:13Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:05:41Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T13:06:16Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:06:26Z heurist joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:08:02Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:08:31Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:09:33Z purelazy left #lisp 2014-12-17T13:10:41Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:11:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:11:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:12:34Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T13:13:37Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:13:51Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:15:12Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-17T13:15:15Z ejbs joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:16:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:16:49Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:17:20Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:17:31Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:17:46Z InvalidCo joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:20:46Z theos joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:21:09Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:21:17Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:22:28Z hardenedapple quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:22:55Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:23:58Z zadock joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:26:32Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:28:29Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:29:14Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T13:30:37Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:30:56Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:30:58Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T13:31:50Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:36:37Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:40:05Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T13:42:16Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:42:38Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T13:42:38Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T13:42:41Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T13:46:14Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-12-17T13:48:11Z pranavrc quit 2014-12-17T13:52:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:53:03Z ehu: hi 2014-12-17T13:53:20Z ehu: rebooting cl-net; it was getting sluggish. 2014-12-17T13:56:22Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-12-17T13:59:29Z Xach: no wonder my updates are stalling 2014-12-17T13:59:54Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-12-17T14:00:44Z Shinmera: Xach: re recent asdf: Shouldn't asdf be "directly upgrading"? Or are there problems when you switch out the quicklisp provided asdf2 with asdf3? 2014-12-17T14:01:09Z Shinmera has never had to deal with upgrading asdf, so he's curious 2014-12-17T14:01:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:02:57Z ehu: Xach: it's back up, but the disk is still (again) saturated. 2014-12-17T14:02:59Z specbot joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:03:13Z ehu: your updates are probably going to take a bit longer. 2014-12-17T14:03:35Z minion joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:05:02Z Xach: Shinmera: what does "directly upgrading" mean? 2014-12-17T14:05:31Z Shinmera: Xach: From what I read you should be able to just LOAD the asdf file regardless of what the implementation provides and be good to go 2014-12-17T14:05:51Z Shinmera: Xach: But I have no idea if that actually works in all settings, so I was wondering if you had experience with that. 2014-12-17T14:05:59Z Xach: Shinmera: you mean load asdf.lisp? 2014-12-17T14:06:02Z Shinmera: yes 2014-12-17T14:06:46Z Xach: Shinmera: I don't know. In the past it didn't because its version calculation did not consider 3.1 satisfying "3.0 or newer" 2014-12-17T14:07:03Z Shinmera: Huh. Alright then. 2014-12-17T14:07:25Z Xach: I think today you can just load it, but I don't know with confidence. I just use what SBCL provides. 2014-12-17T14:07:37Z Shinmera once again wishes the versioning scheme in CL-verse was strictly enforced 2014-12-17T14:10:36Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:12:40Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: you should load ASDF as early as possible in your init file 2014-12-17T14:13:01Z fe[nl]ix: and avoid the bundled ASDF 2014-12-17T14:13:19Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T14:13:20Z fe[nl]ix: that way ASDF never does the on-the-fly upgrade 2014-12-17T14:13:43Z Shinmera: Is that because OTF doesn't work smoothly or? 2014-12-17T14:13:57Z fe[nl]ix: doesn't work well 2014-12-17T14:14:03Z Shinmera: Ah, a shame. 2014-12-17T14:14:32Z fe[nl]ix: I wish rpg/fare just removed it 2014-12-17T14:14:48Z Shinmera: If it doesn't work well that might be better, indeed. 2014-12-17T14:15:00Z Shinmera: But I don't know if there's some profound reason that it's still kept around. 2014-12-17T14:15:18Z grc` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:16:25Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:16:48Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-17T14:17:42Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: Faré wanted people to be able to load ASDF after they loaded their usual development environment 2014-12-17T14:18:42Z Shinmera: I was more wondering if there's an implementation that always loads ASDF so there's no choice but to OTF upgrade it. 2014-12-17T14:18:55Z fe[nl]ix: my solution: just load ASDF as the very first thing in your init file 2014-12-17T14:19:05Z grc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T14:19:39Z fe[nl]ix: not that I know of 2014-12-17T14:19:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:20:30Z grc` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T14:21:27Z grc` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:22:14Z Xach: Fare and rpg gave a talk in reno about how hot upgrade was a key feature in letting people move from asdf 1 to 2. 2014-12-17T14:22:20Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:22:30Z Xach: I think the slides may still be available 2014-12-17T14:23:41Z ivan4th quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me) 2014-12-17T14:24:10Z fe[nl]ix: I don't think it was a "key feature" 2014-12-17T14:24:29Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:27:04Z dlowe: Xach: I don't know how well local-time achieves its goals, either. People keep using it, though 2014-12-17T14:27:19Z Xach: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ilc2010draft.pdf describes it as "essential to solve the social issues" 2014-12-17T14:27:34Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:28:14Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I know, I was there. I just disagree that it was essential 2014-12-17T14:29:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:29:26Z Xach: I suspect Quicklisp bundling asdf2 drove more adoption than any other factor. 2014-12-17T14:29:46Z fe[nl]ix: I agree 2014-12-17T14:29:49Z fe[nl]ix: anyway, my viewpoint is very skewed 2014-12-17T14:31:16Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:31:40Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T14:32:10Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:34:08Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:34:08Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T14:34:08Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:34:31Z fe[nl]ix: I'm doing QA here and I've learned to be rather strict about build chains 2014-12-17T14:34:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:35:57Z fe[nl]ix: "do you really want to be able to configure this ?" is my motto 2014-12-17T14:36:29Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:38:23Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:39:12Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T14:39:33Z grc` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T14:39:59Z grc` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:41:02Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T14:41:13Z heurist joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:41:33Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T14:41:40Z katco joined #lisp 2014-12-17T14:45:27Z hentleman quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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Or schema validation built into one of the many json libs? 2014-12-17T16:09:21Z a20141212 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:10:15Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:10:57Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:13:51Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T16:15:40Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:17:37Z hekmek joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:25:13Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:34:44Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T16:38:47Z gavilancomun quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 34.0/20141125180439]) 2014-12-17T16:39:05Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T16:40:03Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-17T16:41:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T16:42:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-17T16:44:27Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T16:44:50Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2014-12-17T16:46:30Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-17T16:48:05Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-17T16:48:26Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:52:45Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-12-17T16:52:46Z normanrichards quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T16:53:39Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:00:43Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:09:20Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:10:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:16:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:20:16Z beach joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:20:24Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-12-17T17:20:34Z oleo: evening 2014-12-17T17:21:09Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-12-17T17:21:59Z beach: drmeister: I made some significant progress on HIR->MIR. Not there yet, but I now have HIR transformations that replace references to captured variables by references to "cells" kept in ordinary lexical variables with dynamic extent. 2014-12-17T17:22:28Z beach: drmeister: Next, I have to figure out what to do with constants that can not be turned into immediate values. 2014-12-17T17:25:46Z alusion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:26:33Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-17T17:26:57Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:27:25Z nell joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:29:24Z beach: drmeister: I promised some figures of that. Here is one of (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))): http://metamodular.com/transformed-hir.png 2014-12-17T17:29:42Z Shinmera: beach: pjb: Has there been any more developments on the hyperspec cleanup / mailing list / whatnot things? 2014-12-17T17:29:46Z Shinmera: *Have 2014-12-17T17:30:09Z pjb: Not yet. 2014-12-17T17:30:17Z pjb: Server's not ready yet. 2014-12-17T17:30:32Z Shinmera: Alright, no hurry. I was making sure I didn't miss anything. 2014-12-17T17:30:33Z beach: I have been working on the dpANS parser, though. 2014-12-17T17:31:17Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:31:23Z Shinmera: Has there been any change regarding which format to write it in? 2014-12-17T17:31:26Z beach: Whatever format we choose, it would be great to start with the dpANS as initial contents. 2014-12-17T17:32:05Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:32:26Z beach: Shinmera: pjb said "docbook". I don't care that much. 2014-12-17T17:32:30Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:32:35Z Shinmera: Alright. 2014-12-17T17:32:50Z Shinmera: I thought I remembered discussion of alternatives. 2014-12-17T17:33:06Z beach: It is interesting to me that surface syntax is the first thing to be questioned. Yet another argument in favor of CLOS class definitions rather than syntax. :) 2014-12-17T17:33:21Z beach: Shinmera: My memory is horrible, so you might well be right. 2014-12-17T17:33:43Z adlai: that's actually a neat idea. build a parser to CLOS, and let people serialize them in whatever format they want! 2014-12-17T17:33:55Z beach: adlai: Thanks! :) 2014-12-17T17:34:27Z beach: Now we just have to convince Shinmera to write the spec for those classes. 2014-12-17T17:34:28Z Shinmera: beach: I've thought about a couple of things over the week by the way, but I'll need to boil it down to more concrete ideas before I want to discuss what I've come up with with you. 2014-12-17T17:34:51Z beach: Shinmera: Sure, no rush. 2014-12-17T17:34:53Z Shinmera: Things regarding the CLOS model I mean 2014-12-17T17:35:02Z beach: Yes, I understood. 2014-12-17T17:35:37Z rme: adlai: That's sort of the approach gz took with CCLDoc. http://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc 2014-12-17T17:36:14Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-17T17:36:25Z beach: rme: That still looks like syntax. Granted in the form of S-expressions, but still. 2014-12-17T17:36:29Z beach: No? 2014-12-17T17:37:14Z rme: But it reads into a document model of CLOS objects called clauses. These can then be rendered into HTML, TeX, etc. 2014-12-17T17:37:40Z beach: rme: But my idea is to specify the CLOS classes, not the syntax. 2014-12-17T17:38:28Z beach: rme: Pretty much every documentation system claims to be able to render to every other documentation system. But all of the ones I have seen are still based on specifying the input syntax. 2014-12-17T17:39:31Z beach: rme: By specifying the model in the form of classes and generic functions, we can develop compatible programs for manipulating those models. 2014-12-17T17:40:12Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:40:44Z beach: rme: I haven't looked into the details of CCLDoc, though. Maybe that's what they did. 2014-12-17T17:40:46Z rme: http://trac.clozure.com/ccldoc/wiki/CCLDocOverview#document-object-model documents what the processed document looks like in terms of the resultant model objects. 2014-12-17T17:40:51Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T17:41:29Z beach: rme: Indeed. That's great. 2014-12-17T17:42:27Z pjb: This is called a DTD. 2014-12-17T17:42:29Z beach: Shinmera: Looks like CCLDoc is a thing to look at for inspiration! 2014-12-17T17:42:37Z rme: Anyway, I'm not saying anyone should use CCLDoc, but it is largely designed around the ideas that have been under discussion. 2014-12-17T17:43:01Z Shinmera: beach: It's close to what I initially wanted to write, so it's already on my todo anyway. 2014-12-17T17:43:02Z beach: pjb: I seriously doubt that DTDs have generic functions. 2014-12-17T17:43:45Z beach: Shinmera: Excellent! 2014-12-17T17:44:21Z beach: Actually that model (CCLDoc) doesn't have very many generic functions either, nor many functions for that matter. 2014-12-17T17:44:26Z pjb: Documents don't have code. They're plain data. Or do you want an executable (active) document? 2014-12-17T17:44:41Z beach: pjb: I want to know how it can be manipulated. 2014-12-17T17:44:49Z Shinmera: He wants a generalised system to access and manipulate document-structured data. 2014-12-17T17:45:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:46:26Z pjb: Structured documents are trees of elements. We all agree that the external syntax doesn't matter. There are tools to access and manipulate structured documents written in XML or SGML form. There are libraries to read/write XML into sexp if you want to process them in lisp. 2014-12-17T17:48:25Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:48:50Z beach: pjb: Might be general graphs and not just trees. Anyway, dinner. I might be back later. 2014-12-17T17:49:18Z pjb: If you consider non-textual document, yes. 2014-12-17T17:49:38Z pjb: I mean, documents that are accessed thru a computer program instead of paper. 2014-12-17T17:50:38Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-12-17T17:51:04Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:53:36Z atgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:57:19Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T17:59:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T18:01:10Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:05:16Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:06:37Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-12-17T18:07:09Z nell joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:07:45Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:11:09Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:11:25Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:13:33Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:14:37Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:14:38Z normanrichards quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T18:17:19Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:17:48Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T18:17:48Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:19:35Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-17T18:23:46Z beach: pjb: It would be fine with me to define an XML syntax as one possible external representation of the document. 2014-12-17T18:25:06Z beach: It's late for me. I should go spend some time with my (admittedly small) family. 2014-12-17T18:25:08Z beach left #lisp 2014-12-17T18:30:09Z corni joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:30:14Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T18:30:14Z corni joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:30:43Z admg joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:31:57Z zadock joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:32:36Z j_king: i continue to encounter the argument that the ANSI CL spec *should* have specified a threading implementation in order to enable concurrent execution of CL. The ANSI C specification makes no mention of threading and yet there are highly concurrent C programs. is this a common problem for CL developers? 2014-12-17T18:33:09Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T18:34:01Z j_king: i write threaded CL programs without a hitch and have toyed with concurrency primitives, ContextL, etc. 2014-12-17T18:34:25Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:34:37Z Xach: j_king: i think there is a confusion between "it would have been nice to have" and "i cannot reasonably work without it" 2014-12-17T18:34:53Z Xach: and i think it puts a lot of faith in the potential niceness 2014-12-17T18:35:00Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:35:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:35:11Z Shinmera: Lots of things would've been nice to have standardised because then we didn't have to trust implementors to supply it and library writers to bridge the gap. 2014-12-17T18:35:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-12-17T18:35:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:35:40Z Shinmera: But for most things like threads, sockets, etc, things work reasonably well with the wrappers we have now, so it's not a big deal. 2014-12-17T18:35:43Z Xach: Shinmera: why wouldn't you have to trust implementors? they could just ignore it. 2014-12-17T18:35:57Z alpha-: maybe the CK spec can be... updated 2014-12-17T18:36:00Z alpha-: CL* 2014-12-17T18:36:11Z Shinmera: Xach: Well, it wouldn't be spec compliant if the spec demanded threading 2014-12-17T18:36:20Z kami left #lisp 2014-12-17T18:36:48Z drichard` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:36:50Z Xach: Shinmera: spec compliance was not historically a strong point of Common Lisp implementations until "recently" 2014-12-17T18:36:51Z drichards quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T18:37:06Z Xach: where "recently" means in the last 10 years or so. better now than ever, of course. 2014-12-17T18:37:12Z alpha-: it's not like the spec is set in stone 2014-12-17T18:37:20Z Shinmera: Hm. Right, I didn't consider that aspect. 2014-12-17T18:37:30Z j_king: alpha-: unless you consider millions of dollars stone. 2014-12-17T18:37:52Z Xach: SBCL is pretty weird in how much it tries to adhere to the letter of the spec in a lot of aspects. 2014-12-17T18:38:02Z j_king: alpha-: pretty sure ANSI doesn't have a github repo. ;) 2014-12-17T18:38:18Z alpha-: time to replace ANSI then 2014-12-17T18:38:29Z j_king sighs. 2014-12-17T18:38:41Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2014-12-17T18:38:50Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:39:09Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:39:26Z alpha-: HTML 4.01 is still *the* web standard 2014-12-17T18:39:36Z j_king: i think underspecifying things like the runtime environment goes quite a long way to making the language rather portable and has certainly produced competing implementations with interesting interpretations of things. 2014-12-17T18:39:49Z alpha-: but major implementors went and replaced the defunct w3c 2014-12-17T18:39:55Z alpha-: when it failed to deliver html5 2014-12-17T18:40:16Z j_king: the ANSI CL spec, afterall, wasn't defining a VM afaik 2014-12-17T18:40:31Z White_Flame: j_king: but then again, there is something to be said about Lisp being a language to play around with concepts, and adhering to the spec means the fundamental implementation base must adhere to all that functionality if there is to be any traction 2014-12-17T18:40:36Z Xach plugs peter's talk once more 2014-12-17T18:40:52Z Xach: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp 2014-12-17T18:41:10Z j_king: Xach: i've watched that talk several times. +1 :) 2014-12-17T18:42:29Z j_king: SBCL does do some fun things in thread.h 2014-12-17T18:42:36Z Xach: It was an eye-opener for me. Before that I thought, approximately, "a spec is a technical document produced so programmers can work together. some mix of technical people decide on what ideas are good, specify them, and then the implementations follow suit." 2014-12-17T18:43:41Z nell joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:43:55Z Xach: i am using "spec" where probably "standard" is better 2014-12-17T18:47:22Z _death: in my opinion mature languages with lots of code written in them shouldn't change, even "backwards-compatibly".. CL is great in that it doesn't change, yet provides tools to create syntactic abstractions 2014-12-17T18:48:09Z easye` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:48:13Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T18:48:31Z oGMo: they could at least be built to support backward compatibility, and change, as part of the language, which CL arguably does 2014-12-17T18:48:32Z _death: this is why I learned C89/C++03 well, but will likely never bother with C99/C++11 2014-12-17T18:49:46Z Xach: I don't think CL got everything right, but making things right is pretty hard. 2014-12-17T18:50:12Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-17T18:50:23Z oGMo: it definitely didn't, but making it so you can later make things right without breaking the world is a killer feature 2014-12-17T18:50:30Z TDT` joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:50:40Z _death: I've no problem with someone taking CL and calling it MyLisp and changing everything 2014-12-17T18:50:41Z oGMo: not that i expect CL to ever change 2014-12-17T18:50:55Z gingerale: Anyone know if anyone's tried to do a binding for Webkit in Common Lisp? Didn't find any. Just some GTK bindings. 2014-12-17T18:50:58Z _death: just keep out of my CL implementations :) 2014-12-17T18:51:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:51:31Z Shinmera: gingerale: https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit 2014-12-17T18:51:34Z oGMo: _death: packages alone more or less let you do whatever you want in your own space 2014-12-17T18:51:47Z gingerale: Oh okay, thanks 2014-12-17T18:51:49Z gingerale: <3 2014-12-17T18:52:41Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T18:52:54Z oGMo: well, packages and being a lisp-2 2014-12-17T18:53:39Z _death: oGMo: it lets you do a lot, sure.. 2014-12-17T18:53:50Z mrkkrp left #lisp 2014-12-17T18:54:46Z genii joined #lisp 2014-12-17T18:54:59Z _death: oGMo: but consider a module system like node's in CL.. that won't fit at all, unless you make some deep changes like giving up (big parts of) packages/symbols/reader 2014-12-17T18:55:37Z oGMo: _death: i don't know what that does, but i doubt it 2014-12-17T18:55:58Z j_king: language specs that don't over-specify allow room for much optimization as well. i'd be happy to see a highly-concurrent run-time in an implementation. someone pointed me to some stuff Lispworks was looking into 2014-12-17T18:56:07Z White_Flame: oGMo: packages don't offer private nesting 2014-12-17T18:56:15Z oGMo: you don't need nesting 2014-12-17T18:56:16Z White_Flame: it's a flat namespace of packages, where collisions can occu 2014-12-17T18:56:18Z White_Flame: +r 2014-12-17T18:56:30Z j_king: dunno why that would require revisiting the spec to formalize threading though. 2014-12-17T18:56:40Z oGMo: or at least, you can always have package, package.subpackage, etc 2014-12-17T18:56:59Z White_Flame: oGMo: yes, if you _write the source code that way_. You can't import multiple versions of packages if it's not written to that 2014-12-17T18:57:08Z oGMo: the main lacking thing is of course local nicknames .. but in theory, one could solve that with a portable reader 2014-12-17T18:57:25Z oGMo: White_Flame: "multiple versions of packages"? 2014-12-17T18:57:26Z REPLeffect quit 2014-12-17T18:57:43Z oGMo: you mean, load multiple systems of different versions using the same package, presumably 2014-12-17T18:57:46Z White_Flame: packages of the same name from different systems, or different versions of the sam systems 2014-12-17T18:57:47Z White_Flame: same 2014-12-17T18:58:00Z oGMo: and you actually can, if you load one system, rename its package, load the other, etc 2014-12-17T18:58:39Z oGMo: personally i think every package should be named with a version like foo-N, but you can still work around it not being so if absolutely necessary 2014-12-17T18:58:40Z jocuman quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-12-17T18:58:52Z p_l: or use modified reader in place of the impl. one 2014-12-17T18:59:33Z Shinmera: You can have any package system you want by wrapping over the flat one and enforcing whatever naming scheme necessary underneath. 2014-12-17T18:59:34Z oGMo: p_l: yeah, i would love to see a complete, portable reader that has some nice extended stuff 2014-12-17T18:59:40Z White_Flame: right, and other languages offer that as a fundamental organizational feature, instead of allowing you to have ad-hoc hacks to the package system 2014-12-17T18:59:48Z White_Flame: that's all that's being said 2014-12-17T18:59:56Z Shinmera: oGMo: I thought pjb had a reader 2014-12-17T19:00:12Z oGMo: White_Flame: that's true, but in other languages you can't fix it; in CL you can fix it 2014-12-17T19:00:20Z White_Flame: (of course, npm's nesting is also just a hack on JS's lack of modularity) 2014-12-17T19:00:47Z oGMo: Shinmera: was it ever completed? i thought it was an experimental thing 2014-12-17T19:01:03Z Shinmera: oGMo: You'll have to ask pjb about that 2014-12-17T19:01:05Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-12-17T19:01:13Z jocuman joined #lisp 2014-12-17T19:01:25Z p_l: isn't npm's nesting a trick on variable lookup scope in closures? 2014-12-17T19:01:57Z White_Flame: I believe so 2014-12-17T19:02:11Z White_Flame: I'm not sure if node.js itself has some implementation feature allowing it directly 2014-12-17T19:02:29Z yenda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T19:03:49Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-12-17T19:05:22Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-12-17T19:05:49Z _death: in CL you can (and want to) do much more with names represented as symbols, so any module system will have to deal with it.. or you'll prefer to ditch some of those in favor of a simpler module system 2014-12-17T19:07:13Z bobbysmith007 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T19:08:04Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(m-quux ...)) 2014-12-17T19:59:21Z oGMo: where you define "foo" as a series of functions and just generate local symbols in the block 2014-12-17T19:59:29Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:00:00Z oGMo: the real question is are you really going to need, want, or use this, and i'm highly doubting it 2014-12-17T20:00:12Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:00:26Z Shinmera: I'm frequently worrying about package name clashes and I would appreciate it if I didn't have to 2014-12-17T20:00:29Z _death: I just gave it as an example 2014-12-17T20:00:30Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:00:37Z oGMo: and to be fair you could hack package locals similarly 2014-12-17T20:01:09Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-12-17T20:01:12Z oGMo: Shinmera: why are you worried about that? are you interning symbols into packages you don't own? 2014-12-17T20:01:17Z Xach: ejbs: even before we had it? 2014-12-17T20:01:44Z Shinmera: oGMo: No, I'm worrying someone might have defined a package of the same name and someone else wants to use both 2014-12-17T20:02:01Z oGMo: ahh, i misread 2014-12-17T20:02:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:02:53Z oleo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-12-17T20:03:43Z Shinmera would like a lot of tools for scanning through all quicklisp provided systems quickly to f.e. determine "taken" package names and similar. 2014-12-17T20:03:49Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:04:34Z Shinmera looks at his todo note for a quicklisp information gathering system and makes a note on it. 2014-12-17T20:04:46Z Shinmera: so many ideas, so little time :( 2014-12-17T20:05:03Z j_king: just do the java thing, com.vendor.package 2014-12-17T20:05:06Z j_king: woo 2014-12-17T20:05:09Z eudoxia: eehhh name clashes should be fairly rare 2014-12-17T20:05:13Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:05:16Z eudoxia: unless someone defines a package doc or something 2014-12-17T20:05:21Z Shinmera: j_king: I don't want users of my package to type all that shit in every time 2014-12-17T20:05:29Z eudoxia: or that shit where someone vendors some other library into their own 2014-12-17T20:05:44Z Shinmera: I do it as a nickname because... I don't even really know. But the main package name of all my stuff is very short to keep it convenient. 2014-12-17T20:05:48Z Xach: Shinmera: qlmapper is meant to facilitate that 2014-12-17T20:05:49Z White_Flame: right, in Java, you only have to type in some partial suffix of the package path 2014-12-17T20:06:49Z j_king: (clearly I've never had this problem since I started using CL for side-projects in 2008) 2014-12-17T20:07:01Z towodo_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:07:22Z Shinmera: Also note: I generally constantly worry about a lot of things that are probably not worth worrying about, so ... make of my worries what you will. 2014-12-17T20:07:28Z towodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T20:07:28Z towodo_ is now known as towodo 2014-12-17T20:07:33Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T20:07:43Z Shinmera: Your Worry May Vary 2014-12-17T20:08:16Z Shinmera: Xach: Ah, nice, I'll take a look at that. 2014-12-17T20:09:01Z j_king: (I've also never had a problem with parallelism or concurrency in CL yet either) 2014-12-17T20:09:16Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T20:10:57Z hazz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-17T20:11:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-12-17T20:13:46Z Shinmera: I've had some problems, but mostly because I was doing messy stuff. 2014-12-17T20:15:17Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-17T20:15:25Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T20:16:59Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T20:17:23Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T20:22:21Z Xach: |3b|: does classimp have a license? 2014-12-17T20:22:32Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Even if the package existed you wouldn't be able to do anything since none of the symbols would exist. 2014-12-17T22:07:20Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T22:07:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:08:05Z octophore_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:08:53Z towodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:08:54Z towodo_ is now known as towodo 2014-12-17T22:11:32Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T22:11:33Z Xach: akkad: clack spawns threads during system load? 2014-12-17T22:11:38Z Xach has not used clack before 2014-12-17T22:11:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:11:44Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:12:23Z Shinmera: It apparently starts a "hierarchy watcher" thread 2014-12-17T22:13:11Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:13:54Z akkad: Xach yeah it's preventing delivery from working 2014-12-17T22:14:05Z Shinmera: Though I can't find that snippet in the clack source, so it might come from some dependency 2014-12-17T22:14:08Z akkad: just on lw, works fine on sbcl/ 2014-12-17T22:14:36Z Shinmera: I'm afraid I don't know enough about clack to tell you how to help you with this, you might want to open an issue ticket. 2014-12-17T22:14:48Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T22:15:30Z munge joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:15:53Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/80e0ff7d1ed7eea282de is the output 2014-12-17T22:16:01Z akkad: add :clack to helloworld for example 2014-12-17T22:16:35Z akkad: hello.lisp https://gist.github.com/1610d2a44dfe4f374f66 and deliver.lisp https://gist.github.com/8ed740ce24895981c4b5 2014-12-17T22:19:23Z Bicyclidine: so can you not initialize multiprocessing? 2014-12-17T22:20:18Z akkad: I've tried enabling it all over the place, but it does not fix the issue 2014-12-17T22:20:37Z Bicyclidine: with http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/LWUG/html/lwuser-183.htm and such? 2014-12-17T22:20:40Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:22:38Z Kanae quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:23:34Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:24:25Z Xach: If I were you, I'd ask for suggestions on the clack issue tracker. 2014-12-17T22:25:23Z farhaven joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:27:25Z akkad: Thanks xach 2014-12-17T22:28:55Z Bicyclidine: https://github.com/fukamachi/clack/blob/cdfac64419cc4803a7c457511973abb317de1417/src/core/middleware/accesslog.lisp#L39 anyway, this is called during load. 2014-12-17T22:30:17Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:30:38Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T22:30:39Z Shinmera: And log4cl is responsible for the Hierarchy Watcher thread, apparently 2014-12-17T22:30:47Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:30:52Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T22:31:00Z Bicyclidine: not sure why you'd want a logger on before you start the server, assuming that's what clackup does, but what do i know 2014-12-17T22:31:06Z Shinmera assumed log4cl might be the culprit but wasn't sure if that was a hard dependency for clack 2014-12-17T22:31:24Z Bicyclidine: i would think just passing -multiprocessing to lw would fix it 2014-12-17T22:31:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:33:04Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T22:33:05Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:33:19Z akkad: Bicyclidine: I'll try 2014-12-17T22:34:32Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:35:45Z akkad: yeah same deal. 2014-12-17T22:36:08Z CrazyM4n joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:36:12Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-17T22:36:21Z Shinmera: Time to open a bug ticket! https://github.com/fukamachi/clack/issues 2014-12-17T22:36:58Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:37:46Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:38:25Z akkad: the problem is that something in the libraries is trying to start a process named "Hierarchy Watcher" at load-time before DELIVER is called. any such call must be delayed until run-time, after DELIVER is called. 2014-12-17T22:38:59Z Shinmera: Yes, Bicyclidine traced that to log4cl being initialised when it shouldn't be. 2014-12-17T22:39:02Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:39:54Z akkad: oh missed that 2014-12-17T22:40:38Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:40:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-17T22:42:16Z Bicyclidine: yeah, could be a clack bug. i don't know clack's architecture, of course, maybe starting a logger at load time makes sense 2014-12-17T22:42:35Z Shinmera: It doesn't log anything during loading, so I doubt it 2014-12-17T22:43:10Z Bicyclidine: when i looked through clack source i found some functions that started watching asdf loads in another thread or something, i've mentally compartmentalized it as weird 2014-12-17T22:44:06Z Shinmera hopes he won't ever have to do weird things like that in Radiance 2014-12-17T22:44:35Z Bicyclidine: those functions wouldn't be called at load time, though 2014-12-17T22:44:49Z Shinmera: Sure, but still. 2014-12-17T22:45:29Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-17T22:46:06Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-17T22:46:49Z octophore quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T22:46:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:47:11Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:50:52Z z_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:50:56Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:51:16Z z_ is now known as Guest7946 2014-12-17T22:51:23Z Guest7946 quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-17T22:51:23Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-17T22:52:14Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T22:52:27Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:01:17Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:02:06Z Blkt: how do I rotate a 32 bit integer, i.e. perform C-style bit shifting? 2014-12-17T23:03:13Z Bicyclidine: clhs ash 2014-12-17T23:03:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ash.htm 2014-12-17T23:03:24Z akkad: restas it is 2014-12-17T23:04:06Z Bicyclidine: if you want a rotate rather than a shift you'll have to do it yourself. same as C 2014-12-17T23:05:15Z Blkt: Bicyclidine: (format t "~8,'0b vs ~8,'0b" 1 (ash 1 32)) 2014-12-17T23:06:29Z kristof: Bicyclidine: Wait, what about rotate-byte? 2014-12-17T23:07:19Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:07:29Z Kanae joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:13:10Z hazz joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:14:29Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:22:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:23:26Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T23:24:29Z mathrick joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:24:36Z ski: minion: chant 2014-12-17T23:24:36Z minion: MORE RAMIFIED 2014-12-17T23:25:22Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-17T23:30:49Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-17T23:32:18Z egp_ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:32:51Z mathrick joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:34:30Z RedEight joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:39:49Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: connection disappeared into paranoid confusion) 2014-12-17T23:40:38Z Xach: kristof: handy, but nonstandard 2014-12-17T23:40:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:41:14Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:41:37Z nightshade427 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:41:51Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:41:54Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:42:30Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:43:01Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:43:11Z akkad tries to figure out the error in defining main in http://pastebin.com/tbWf6w6N 2014-12-17T23:43:15Z Bicyclidine: kristof: an sbcl extension 2014-12-17T23:43:27Z Bicyclidine: which i forgot about, so glad you mentioned it 2014-12-17T23:43:48Z Grue`: akkad: '#hello-world maybe? 2014-12-17T23:43:56Z Bicyclidine: Blkt: in the future could you phrase your responses in a way that doesn't require me to remember how format works 2014-12-17T23:44:01Z Grue`: ugh, #'hello-world 2014-12-17T23:44:26Z Bicyclidine: Blkt: which is to say i don't know what you're complaining about? help me out here 2014-12-17T23:44:28Z yenda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-17T23:44:39Z Blkt: yes, you're right 2014-12-17T23:45:07Z Blkt: I was going to write it down, but had stuff to manage at home 2014-12-17T23:45:09Z Bicyclidine: do you want to truncate the result to 8 bits? 2014-12-17T23:45:17Z Blkt: well 2014-12-17T23:45:36Z Blkt: first, I wronged shift with rotation 2014-12-17T23:45:41Z nightshade427 joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:45:41Z Blkt: so got the problem wrong 2014-12-17T23:46:08Z Blkt: and second, I was doing the wrong shifting 2014-12-17T23:46:14Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:46:16Z Blkt: left shift instead of right shift 2014-12-17T23:46:23Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:46:56Z Blkt: e.g. I needed (ash 65 -4) instead of (ash 65 4) 2014-12-17T23:47:01Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-12-17T23:47:02Z Blkt: and no rotation at all 2014-12-17T23:47:13Z Bicyclidine: -4 will give you a right shift 2014-12-17T23:47:17Z Blkt: yes 2014-12-17T23:47:22Z Blkt: which is C's >> 2014-12-17T23:47:24Z Blkt: right? 2014-12-17T23:47:31Z Bicyclidine: oh, yes, i misinterpreted. 2014-12-17T23:47:56Z Blkt: thanks for the help anyway 2014-12-17T23:47:58Z Bicyclidine: i thought you said you needed a left shift rather than a right shift, so i was confused. 2014-12-17T23:48:07Z Blkt: :D 2014-12-17T23:48:23Z akkad: Grue` getting an undefined function on main 2014-12-17T23:48:35Z malice joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:48:43Z kristof: What's the point of using extensions to common lisp if people are going to tell you to use standard common lisp instead? 2014-12-17T23:49:26Z Blkt: kristof: are you talking about the shift/rotation stuff? 2014-12-17T23:49:30Z wasamasa: kristof: satisfaction 2014-12-17T23:49:39Z kristof: Sorry, that sounded hostile. It's just that sometimes I suggest solutions to people's problems, and someone will say "well that's sbcl only". 2014-12-17T23:50:03Z Bicyclidine: if it makes you feel better, if blkt had wanted rotation, sb-rotate-byte would have been a perfectly good solution 2014-12-17T23:50:13Z kristof: Blkt: It applies to that, but honestly it applies more to the time I recommended some of SBCL's queue stuff when people asked if Common Lisp has any good concurrency support 2014-12-17T23:50:25Z Bicyclidine: possibly with writing a portable version out of standard bits that just uses sb if it's there 2014-12-17T23:51:02Z Blkt: kristof: I think most of it is due to the fact that people is used to have ONE C compiler (now no more) or ONE Java JDK 2014-12-17T23:51:05Z kristof: Bicyclidine: It's not about my feelings (I have none!), I'm just saying that the qualification "This is SBCL only, by the way" is sort of meaningless 2014-12-17T23:51:24Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:51:33Z Blkt: and all of a sudden they have 3+ Common Lisp implementations 2014-12-17T23:51:35Z Bicyclidine: it's... really not? i mean, there are perfectly good reasons to use non-sbcl implementations 2014-12-17T23:51:55Z Blkt: the same happens with CPython, Jython, IronPython and so on 2014-12-17T23:52:02Z Bicyclidine: and if someone is using some other implementation they would probably like to be informed of this caveat 2014-12-17T23:52:10Z kristof: Blkt: That's also untrue. I regularly use at least 3 C compilers, and it's not uncommon for me to in contact with Azul JVM 2014-12-17T23:52:41Z Blkt: about C, I wrote "now no more" 2014-12-17T23:52:42Z Bicyclidine: yeah, c code has enough #ifdef __GNUC__ and shit 2014-12-17T23:52:53Z Bicyclidine: old c, not c now that llvm exists or anything 2014-12-17T23:53:23Z kristof: Bicyclidine: Okay, I agree with that. In all seriousness, besides Lispworks and Allegro having a large userbase because of their development environments, what reasons do people use other CL implementations? 2014-12-17T23:53:29Z Bicyclidine: i mean, how else would openssl know how to work on big-endian x86?? 2014-12-17T23:53:43Z Blkt: kristof: JVM has shitloads of compatibility tests 2014-12-17T23:53:47Z Bicyclidine: kristof: abcl has java interop, ccl has the objc bridge 2014-12-17T23:54:10Z Bicyclidine: extensions, one might say :p 2014-12-17T23:54:17Z kristof: ...okay, that's true. 2014-12-17T23:54:29Z Bicyclidine: ccl runs on android, too, i think. sbcl is working on it but probably not as great there. 2014-12-17T23:54:32Z Bicyclidine: etc 2014-12-17T23:54:38Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:54:52Z kristof: I live in a bubble. 2014-12-17T23:55:04Z kristof: Very minor wakeup call. Apologies to everyone. 2014-12-17T23:56:14Z Hexstream: kristof: Are you aware that SBCL is by far the most popular CL implementation?... 2014-12-17T23:56:51Z kristof: Hexstream: I am aware, which is why I'm confused when people don't rely on its extensions more 2014-12-17T23:57:26Z Hexstream: Well, it's a bit like asking why people don't use more Windows-specific extensions I guess. 2014-12-17T23:57:34Z Blkt: the myth of portable code 2014-12-17T23:58:00Z Blkt: more than a myth it's probably an utopia 2014-12-17T23:59:05Z akkad: if I (in-package #:hello-world) (main) it works but I can't seem to call (helloworld:main) without a "the symbol "MAIN" is not external in the Hello-world package 2014-12-17T23:59:08Z Hexstream: Well, "portability" is an absurdly context-specific concept. 2014-12-17T23:59:15Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-17T23:59:16Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:59:19Z Bicyclidine: akkad: well, make sure it's exported then 2014-12-17T23:59:29Z Blkt: akkad: try with (helloworld::main) 2014-12-17T23:59:39Z Blkt: if it works, then you forgot to export main 2014-12-17T23:59:40Z _JokerDoom joined #lisp 2014-12-17T23:59:43Z Shinmera: write everywhere, run once 2014-12-17T23:59:43Z Hexstream: "Portability" inherently implies reliance on some more or less well-defined platform. 2014-12-17T23:59:49Z akkad: two : 2014-12-17T23:59:55Z akkad: ok will read up on exporting thanks