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2014-12-15T15:55:26Z squest: it's midnight here :)
2014-12-15T15:56:22Z nyef: Why don't we all just use the UGT time zone?
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2014-12-15T15:57:15Z squest: good evening then
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2014-12-15T15:59:35Z ivan4th: adlai: I once wrote an XML pretty printer using CL pretty printer after reading the paper you mentioned. The problem is, as far as I remember, that the output is not quite stable across implementations
2014-12-15T15:59:58Z adlai: json is much simpler than XML though
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2014-12-15T16:00:30Z ivan4th: the problem was not with XML but with minor differences in how the standard is implemented in different lisps
2014-12-15T16:01:56Z ivan4th: this doesn't always pose a big problem, but still you may get different output from the same code
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2014-12-15T16:05:15Z ivan4th: adlai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144699 it wasn't just XML pretty printer though. It did some complex handling of html-like tags defined in some file called tags.xml
2014-12-15T16:05:39Z ivan4th: but dunno, maybe it can be of some use anyway
2014-12-15T16:07:30Z adlai: ivan4th: interesting, I'll have a look. thanks
2014-12-15T16:07:54Z ivan4th: you're welcome
2014-12-15T16:08:56Z ivan4th: I was using both SBCL & CLISP back then and remember having some problems with CLISP. But seems like CLISP isn't widely used nowadays
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2014-12-15T16:26:28Z dim: you can use yason and add your own print methods to your objects too
2014-12-15T16:27:57Z dim: see end of https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/model.lisp
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2014-12-15T16:53:15Z francis49: hello
2014-12-15T16:54:06Z francis49: someone used allegro common lisp express for fractals?
2014-12-15T16:54:54Z oGMo: it's possible, but you could do so using other implementations as well
2014-12-15T16:55:35Z oGMo: i don't see ACL mentioned a lot, so I'm not sure if anyone here has specific familiarity
2014-12-15T16:56:00Z francis49: oGMo, what other implementation you mean?
2014-12-15T16:56:19Z oGMo: who/what is unoyunodos and why is it privmsg'ing
2014-12-15T16:56:40Z oGMo: francis49: SBCL and CCL are used most heavily here
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2014-12-15T16:57:08Z Xach: oGMo: spammer, maybe?
2014-12-15T16:58:07Z oGMo: sneaky if so, avoiding publics
2014-12-15T16:58:15Z francis49: oGMo, but they do not have a nice ide.
2014-12-15T16:58:26Z oGMo: francis49: they have emacs and slime! those are pretty nice.
2014-12-15T16:58:46Z oGMo: and i think CCL actually has its own IDE on OSX
2014-12-15T16:58:54Z jasom: francis49: I see lispworks mentioned here more often than ACL
2014-12-15T16:59:12Z francis49: ah yes sure, but i first am a windows user. i dont know emacs and slime
2014-12-15T17:00:46Z oGMo: nobody knows them before learning; both work fine in windows (and osx) to my knowledge
2014-12-15T17:01:22Z francis49: oGMo, sure
2014-12-15T17:01:50Z francis49: jason, lispworks personal edition is too limited
2014-12-15T17:03:11Z jasom: francis49: I think most of those here who use lw have a commercial license
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2014-12-15T17:04:02Z shka: good evening lispers
2014-12-15T17:04:05Z francis49: jasom, sure that's true.
2014-12-15T17:04:17Z francis49: shka hello to you
2014-12-15T17:04:37Z francis49: jasom, too expensive i think
2014-12-15T17:05:00Z sol__: is lispworks worth the investement? how much better is it than emacs/slime as a dev environment (debugging, code inspection etc.)?
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2014-12-15T17:05:29Z francis49: sol, sure, but too heavy to learn
2014-12-15T17:07:03Z francis49: oGMo, do you know "lispide"?
2014-12-15T17:07:10Z oGMo: francis49: nope
2014-12-15T17:07:40Z sol__: francis49, implying emacs/slime weren't heavy to learn? i still discover new trick every day...
2014-12-15T17:08:04Z oGMo: emacs/slime aren't heavy to learn :P
2014-12-15T17:08:21Z jasom: you can use emacs and slime with some small setup and just menu items for everythin
2014-12-15T17:08:28Z oGMo: exactly
2014-12-15T17:08:36Z francis49: sol, as sayd before, i am a windows user
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2014-12-15T17:09:31Z francis49: oGMo, wait i find the urel of lispide
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2014-12-15T17:10:16Z francis49: oGMo, give a look   http://www.daansystems.com/lispide/
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2014-12-15T17:10:27Z oGMo: no thanks
2014-12-15T17:10:58Z francis49: i used this with sbcl
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2014-12-15T17:12:02Z wmunny: francis49: emacs and slime runs on windows with no problem
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2014-12-15T17:12:31Z francis49: wmunny, i think i must do a try then
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2014-12-15T17:14:30Z francis49: time to go freinds
2014-12-15T17:14:41Z francis49: thank you all and bye
2014-12-15T17:15:13Z drmeister: Does anyone understand how SLIME updates source file-positions for source code that falls after code that you insert into a file?
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2014-12-15T17:15:34Z drmeister: We have another bot:   unoyunodos
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2014-12-15T17:19:39Z jdz: drmeister: doesn't it look for the top-level form around the location?
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2014-12-15T17:22:04Z drmeister: I was thinking more about when you view source in the SLIME debugger.  When I compile a function, I embed source file information within the compiled code.  That source file information will become out of date when I compile functions within the source file.
2014-12-15T17:22:06Z Xach: drmeister: in my experience, it doesn't
2014-12-15T17:22:33Z Xach: drmeister: i often jump to the wrong form when i've been editing a file, so i recompile the whole thing sometimes to fix.
2014-12-15T17:22:45Z Xach: "often" is maybe too strong a term, but it happens.
2014-12-15T17:22:49Z drmeister: Ah - ok.   That makes sense.
2014-12-15T17:23:26Z drmeister: I assumed there was magic in there somewhere to keep track of source information and update it in realtime.
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2014-12-15T17:24:07Z Xach: drmeister: pretty sure it just asks the implementation. most have some kind of source location facility.
2014-12-15T17:24:30Z Xach: under different names but the same general idea: "where is the thing named by <whatever> defined?"
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2014-12-15T17:25:10Z drmeister: Yes, I'm just learning about those as I implement swank in clasp.
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2014-12-15T17:25:53Z Xach: lispworks does that under the umbrella of something called "dspecs"
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2014-12-15T17:26:23Z drmeister: I just figured out how it spoofs the source info when it compiles a single function.
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2014-12-15T17:28:06Z Xach: i would expect that to vary by implementation, but i haven't looked into it.
2014-12-15T17:28:52Z drmeister: It does.   ECL/Clasp COMPILE-FILE accept :source-truename and :source-offset flags to spoof the source info generation.
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2014-12-15T17:30:01Z drmeister: The details between ECL and Clasp differ widely from there.
2014-12-15T17:30:28Z drmeister: Other implementations differ as well.
2014-12-15T17:30:45Z Poenikatu: Can anybody help me? I tried to join ##mac (and ##apple) but was told that I had to be identified by services. What does that mean?
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2014-12-15T17:36:11Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2014-12-15T17:39:05Z Xach: Poenikatu: https://freenode.net/faq.shtml has info about registration
2014-12-15T17:39:39Z Xach: Poenikatu: that should also give you some good info about where to get freenode and irc help. (maybe.) this is not a great place for irc help.
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2014-12-15T17:40:23Z Poenikatu: Xach: Many thanks. I realise that #lisp is not a good place for irc help, but I had to start somewhere.
2014-12-15T17:40:40Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-12-15T17:41:23Z ack006: Good evening :-)
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2014-12-15T17:44:01Z shka: beach: good evening sir
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2014-12-15T17:45:13Z beach: drmeister: Am I understanding this correctly? You have been working all this time without using SLIME?
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2014-12-15T17:52:56Z adlai: is it idiomatic to shallow-copy a CLOS instance thus? http://paste.lisp.org/+33NH
2014-12-15T17:53:47Z adlai: tl;dr: EVAL the return values of make-load-form[-saving-slots]
2014-12-15T17:54:24Z Xach: I haven't seen that before.
2014-12-15T17:54:54Z Xach: I don't know every idiom, of course, but that doesn't seem like a very widespread practice in my experience.
2014-12-15T17:54:55Z drmeister: beach: Yes.
2014-12-15T17:56:12Z drmeister: You can't have SLIME until you have a functioning Common Lisp.   There are thousands of details that have to be correct before you can run something like SLIME.
2014-12-15T17:56:46Z beach: You could have developed Clasp using an existing Common Lisp implementation.
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2014-12-15T17:57:23Z drmeister: No existing Common Lisp implementation supports LLVM and interoperates with C++.
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2014-12-15T17:57:55Z drmeister: So no, I couldn't
2014-12-15T17:58:36Z beach: Right.  I am still wondering why it would not have been possible to take advantage of an existing Common Lisp for some things like writing the compiler.  I guess I am not sufficiently familiar with all the restrictions.
2014-12-15T17:58:50Z drmeister: Maybe you could get C++ interoperation and LLVM but it would probably have taken me just as long.
2014-12-15T17:59:53Z adlai wants a copy of the first argument to update-instance-for-different-class
2014-12-15T17:59:58Z oGMo: you could _call_ llvm using CL-LLVM
2014-12-15T18:00:27Z drmeister: CL-LLVM is a C API - not the C++ API.  I could get LLVM but not C++ interoperation.
2014-12-15T18:00:30Z oGMo: and thus implement a lisp using mostly any other CL, or obviously, write your own assembler etc, but that's a lot more work than it's worth
2014-12-15T18:00:45Z oGMo: drmeister: true, though, there are other possible ways ofr C++ interop
2014-12-15T18:00:46Z drmeister: Everyone seems to think this is so easy.   I wonder why no one has done it before.
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2014-12-15T18:02:09Z beach: drmeister: I don't think anyone thinks it's easy.
2014-12-15T18:02:38Z oGMo: yeah it's not _easy_, but there are possibilities
2014-12-15T18:02:59Z oGMo: LLVM really opens a lot of doors though
2014-12-15T18:03:00Z Grue`: adlai: I'm not sure what (setf (second init) it) is supposed to do; I tried for one of my own classes, and this doesn't replace the correct value
2014-12-15T18:03:18Z Grue`: so this code is probably highly unportable if it even works at all
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2014-12-15T18:05:22Z kami: Good evening #lisp.
2014-12-15T18:05:49Z beach: Hello kami.
2014-12-15T18:07:15Z beach: drmeister: I seem to have offended you.  I certainly didn't mean to do that.  I am just trying to understand what is going on.
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2014-12-15T18:08:38Z drmeister: Oh, sorry - no - no one has offended me.  I'm just editing code.
2014-12-15T18:08:55Z adlai: Grue`: works on CCL, fails on SBCL, which has a PROGN and separate SETFs for each slot. I'll work on a portable replacement later (it should just replace all references to the original object in the init form, to the return value of evaluating the creation form
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2014-12-15T18:09:32Z beach: drmeister: Whew!
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2014-12-15T18:09:41Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back later.
2014-12-15T18:09:46Z wmunny:  hello everyone im new on lisp i would like to know if it is possible to compile lisp to one executable file and if yes how
2014-12-15T18:10:19Z drmeister: You are talking to someone who has spent three years hiking out of a swamp.  These suggestions of "why didn't you just ..."  are a bit annoying to have to rebut when they come up every couple of months.
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2014-12-15T18:11:11Z Grue`: wmunny: the most portable way would be (uiop:dump-image "foo.exe" :executable t ...other options...)
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2014-12-15T18:12:18Z wmunny: Grue`: is it the same for linux ?? i dont use windows and i saw a .exe there
2014-12-15T18:12:37Z Grue`: that's just a random filename
2014-12-15T18:12:45Z Grue`: as indicated by "foo"
2014-12-15T18:13:04Z wmunny: Grue`: and how do i define the stating function like the main on other languages ??
2014-12-15T18:13:51Z kristof: drmeister: Is there any summative documentation of your efforts?
2014-12-15T18:14:18Z kristof: drmeister: Brief or long, describing your decisions and rationale.
2014-12-15T18:15:05Z drmeister: kristof: Not yet - but I'm being asked to write some.
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2014-12-15T18:16:54Z Grue`: wmunny: well, I'm looking it up now...
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2014-12-15T18:18:46Z Grue`: wmunny: but it seems that something like (uiop:register-image-restore-hook some-function nil) will cause this function to run when the image is restored
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2014-12-15T18:19:56Z wmunny: ok
2014-12-15T18:19:56Z Grue`: wmunny: many implementations have their own way to dump images, which might be more convenient
2014-12-15T18:20:05Z wmunny: Grue`: ok i will try that
2014-12-15T18:20:22Z wmunny: Grue`: thanks
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2014-12-15T18:20:30Z Grue`: np
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2014-12-15T19:17:03Z Xach finds himself wishing for a more efficient directory / wildcard implementation 
2014-12-15T19:17:44Z Xach: I think sbcl is consing up a full-blown pathname for every entry when I'm interested only in a subset. And I have a lot of files involved.
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2014-12-15T19:23:53Z Xach waits and waits
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2014-12-15T19:27:33Z eschulte: I have a (setf foo) method which works when used directly, but (setf (aref (foo ...) 0) ...) has no effect.  Any suggestion (or pointer to documentation) on how to define a setf expander which will work with a wrapping aref?
2014-12-15T19:28:30Z nyef: eschulte: You don't, you write a normal FOO function at that point.
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2014-12-15T19:28:55Z nyef: The SETF magic is in the AREF, and it calls the non-SETF FOO because it's merely being read from, not used as a place.
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2014-12-15T19:33:56Z eschulte: nyef: I don't follow what you mean by "normal FOO function"
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2014-12-15T19:34:34Z Shinmera: You define a FOO function that returns the array you want to manipulate.
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2014-12-15T19:37:59Z ack006: ah i like the smell of asdf / quicklisp dependency hell in the morning
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2014-12-15T19:40:55Z Xach: haaaaa. i've been sitting patiently while *inferior-lisp* was in ldb.
2014-12-15T19:41:32Z Xach tries again
2014-12-15T19:42:06Z dim: wow, do that doesn't happen only to me? thanks Xach for making me feel less alone on that ;-)
2014-12-15T19:42:21Z dim: s/do/so/
2014-12-15T19:43:13Z dim: and, mmm, what about filtering file names in a subprocess so that your sbcl only sees the right targets? I guess it woulnd't feel as good
2014-12-15T19:43:39Z foom: you might be interested in a function that a co-worked just discovered (and then enabled by default for everyone here): (slime-redirect-inferior-output)
2014-12-15T19:44:08Z Xach forgot this server is a repurposed windows desktop computer with only 6GB of memory...seemed like so much at the time...
2014-12-15T19:44:16Z nyef: Or in building SBCL without LDB, or there's some magic incantation to disable LDB without breaking the debugger...
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2014-12-15T19:45:59Z Xach: I used http://xach.livejournal.com/208882.html
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2014-12-15T19:47:14Z foom: Anyways, not having to ever look at a separate inferior-lisp buffer seems like an all around Good Thing to have turned on. I recommend it. :)
2014-12-15T19:47:16Z nyef: Yeah, that's about right.
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2014-12-15T19:51:54Z Xach: dim: i think i'm going to have to use a subprocess and process the output a line at a time. i apparently don't have enough ram to deal with all the files at once.
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2014-12-15T19:53:12Z ack006: installing iolib using quicklisp, only to realize that it doesn't include libfixposix, neither does my distro, ha, fun to be had.
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2014-12-15T19:54:12Z Xach: quicklisp includes a few things that rely on C libraries that can take some work to obtain
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2014-12-15T19:54:21Z Xach: not a ton, but they are there
2014-12-15T19:54:30Z Xach: i had a hard time getting libtcod installed on my system
2014-12-15T19:54:33Z ack006: Xach: :-)
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2014-12-15T19:54:55Z ack006: yeah, i'm finding out right now :-)
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2014-12-15T20:00:06Z dim: Xach: I did that once with just uiop run-program facility, FWIW
2014-12-15T20:00:36Z dim: I remember having had trouble wanting to make it into a pipe or streaming source for pgloader, but as you can have pgloader read from stdin I didn't pursue it
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2014-12-15T20:04:37Z ack006: now here's the interesting part: iolib project has libfixposix: http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/files/libfixposix/
2014-12-15T20:04:55Z Xach: ack006: how so?
2014-12-15T20:04:55Z ack006: but apparently quicklisp doesn't
2014-12-15T20:05:11Z dim: you still need to have libfixposix.so at the right PATH
2014-12-15T20:05:12Z Xach: Quicklisp does not install C libraries.
2014-12-15T20:05:17Z dim: I'm not convinced it's QL job to do that
2014-12-15T20:05:24Z adlai: Xach: what's your policy on including moving targets in quicklisp? (re: my issue on github, to add scalpl)
2014-12-15T20:05:33Z Xach: I'd like it if somehow QL could make it easier, but I don't know how at the moment.
2014-12-15T20:05:49Z dim: adlai: see https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:sionescu/libfixposix
2014-12-15T20:05:57Z adlai: me?
2014-12-15T20:05:59Z dim: well sorry, ack006, see https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:sionescu/libfixposix
2014-12-15T20:06:08Z Xach: adlai: I add projects if they are portable (work on sbcl and at least one other lisp), if they are licensed so i can redistribute them, and if someone asks.
2014-12-15T20:06:14Z ack006: i've seen other systems build c files during loading, but i'm not sure if they were libraries
2014-12-15T20:06:20Z Xach: adlai: i don't judge quality or propriety, usually.
2014-12-15T20:06:48Z Xach: ack006: some projects do compile C code. they do that as part of their build via ASDF. iolib doesn't work like that, though.
2014-12-15T20:06:50Z adlai: Xach: doing (ql:quickload :scalpl) would fetch a snapshot, not the latest master commit, right?
2014-12-15T20:07:06Z ack006: Xach: ah, i see...
2014-12-15T20:07:25Z Xach: adlai: It depends on how it is added to Quicklisp. I can take snapshots of a git repo, or track a "stable" branch, fetch a release tarball, or a number of other things.
2014-12-15T20:07:41Z Xach: adlai: for git, it is a monthly snapshot, not the latest straight from git
2014-12-15T20:08:16Z adlai: hm, maybe I should wait a while for this
2014-12-15T20:08:34Z adlai: (things still change more frequently)
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2014-12-15T20:09:02Z foom: I think I've seen someone use asdf to invoke a C compiler to build a thing before, haven't I? (maybe I was imagining it)
2014-12-15T20:09:36Z Xach: foom: yes, that happens
2014-12-15T20:09:51Z foom: If that happens, presumably quicklisp will do that too.
2014-12-15T20:09:54Z Xach: that is not what iolib does, though.
2014-12-15T20:10:05Z foom: So the issue is just iolib doesn't have an asdf-based build system for libfixposix?
2014-12-15T20:10:08Z adlai had a quicklisp installation fail because "cc" was not installed on the system
2014-12-15T20:10:10Z ack006: Xach: osicat compiled some c files when i loaded it using quicklisp
2014-12-15T20:10:10Z dim: well yes iolib does that *too*
2014-12-15T20:10:27Z dim: installing iolib, IIRC, requires building C code
2014-12-15T20:10:36Z dim: I had problem where my CC was using ccache
2014-12-15T20:10:43Z ack006: actually osicat-posix did the c compiling
2014-12-15T20:10:44Z Bicyclidine: wasn't that moved into libfixposix
2014-12-15T20:11:01Z dim: there's still some C compiling for the iolib parts
2014-12-15T20:11:16Z dim: can't remember what/why, I switched to uiop
2014-12-15T20:11:18Z foom: I'm not sure why libfixposix is separate from iolib, I can't see why anyone would ever use it other than because iolib requires it.
2014-12-15T20:11:35Z ack006: foom: exactly.
2014-12-15T20:11:42Z dim: uiop documentation is bad, and it's hard to follow the source code because of the with-upgradability macros everywhere, but at least it's easy to have that anywhere
2014-12-15T20:12:17Z Xach: the food is bad, and such small portions too!
2014-12-15T20:12:18Z dim: fe[nl]ix is the author of both libfixposix and iolib, maybe he will spot the conversation and have something to say to that
2014-12-15T20:12:28Z ack006: foom: the iolib project on common-lisp has the files, but they're not used by quicklisp
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2014-12-15T20:13:22Z dlowe: he managed to get libfixposix into debian, though, so if you're using that, at least it's an apt-get away
2014-12-15T20:13:50Z Xach: That is because of the design of Quicklisp and the design of iolib. Quicklisp includes some stuff that requires shared libraries to be installed somehow (quicklisp doesn't do it) before building, and iolib is such a library.
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2014-12-15T20:14:17Z Xach: cl-ncurses requires ncurses be installed, for example.
2014-12-15T20:14:31Z ack006: Xach: ah i see.
2014-12-15T20:14:59Z Xach: i think there are some database libraries that are in the same boat, maybe for mysql or sqlite or both
2014-12-15T20:15:22Z foom: There's a difference between "requires a shared library that is generally available", which it makes sense for quicklisp to not be bothered with, and "requires a shared library that's basically part of the lisp library you want to use".
2014-12-15T20:15:33Z foom: It could be sensible for someone to figure out a solution for the latter.
2014-12-15T20:15:39Z dim: cl-mysql and cl-sqlite and mssql systems are like that Xach, yes
2014-12-15T20:15:43Z ack006: i'm using arch linux, and libfixposix is in the AUR. i'll get it from there.
2014-12-15T20:15:58Z dim: which is a good reason to prefer qmynd over cl-mysql
2014-12-15T20:16:14Z dim: maybe artisan-mysql someday ;-)
2014-12-15T20:17:00Z foom: Since, on unix systems, you can often reasonably depend on a working C compiler. If you care about windows, of course that's right out the window.
2014-12-15T20:17:55Z Xach: It's a deliberate design choice of iolib that I don't understand very well.
2014-12-15T20:17:59Z dim: some ddl are easy to have on windows, and if you place them in the same location as the .exe file you're good to go
2014-12-15T20:18:16Z Xach: I understand the implications but not the motivation.
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2014-12-15T20:18:37Z dim: but freetds doesn't seem to be in the list of easy to have DDLs, so mssql is out of luck to run easily on windows, which is kind of ... fun
2014-12-15T20:19:34Z dim: simple-odbc would be another example of dynamic loaded libs here
2014-12-15T20:19:42Z Xach: get art obrezan working on a native protocol implementation
2014-12-15T20:19:52Z dim: plain-odbc I mean
2014-12-15T20:20:14Z dim: native protocol for MS SQL, you need to be quite... in need for it
2014-12-15T20:20:31Z dim: I'm quite thankful freetds exists and exposed in lisp at all
2014-12-15T20:20:48Z dim: using is has been quite easy, even if I should send some patches to it now
2014-12-15T20:21:05Z Xach: the tds protocol is documented
2014-12-15T20:21:13Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/monkey/mssql.lisp not that much monkey patching
2014-12-15T20:21:41Z Xach: I'm always happy to volunteer people for work
2014-12-15T20:21:50Z dim: Xach: I've been working on the MySQL protocol for qmynd and I can tell you I'm not willingly doing such things again
2014-12-15T20:21:54Z dim: hehe
2014-12-15T20:22:18Z dim: given the right paycheck I'd "volunteer"
2014-12-15T20:22:20Z Xach: mssql protocol is just one letter different
2014-12-15T20:22:30Z dim: hehe
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2014-12-15T20:26:38Z ack006: wow, found this: http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/
2014-12-15T20:26:50Z ack006: guess it'd be nice if this was linked from the quicklisp site
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2014-12-15T20:27:37Z Xach: It is not kept up to date. quickdocs.org (linked from quicklisp.org) is
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2014-12-15T20:27:51Z ack006: Xach: ah :-)
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2014-12-15T20:30:55Z ack006: sadly, quickdocs appears to be in the docks for maintenance atm: http://quickdocs.org/iolib/api
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2014-12-15T20:31:23Z ack006: the other site had the docs i needed, so best to keep both :-)
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2014-12-15T20:34:05Z foom: Hah. quickdocs' error page claims to be in japanese.
2014-12-15T20:34:21Z ack006: ^_^
2014-12-15T20:34:27Z foom: <html lang="ja">
2014-12-15T20:35:09Z Xach: maybe it's meant to indicate "yes, lang!" in german
2014-12-15T20:35:41Z ack006: © 2013 Eitarow Fukamachi, makes sense
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2014-12-15T20:36:10Z foom: Except that it's actually english. But yea, other than that makes sense. :)
2014-12-15T20:36:38Z ack006: http://8arrow.org/
2014-12-15T20:36:53Z adlai: Grue`: http://paste.lisp.org/+33NH/1 should work on any implementation
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2014-12-15T20:38:30Z nyef: Xach: Any luck on the verbosity stuff?
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2014-12-15T20:41:10Z Xach: nyef: no.
2014-12-15T20:41:47Z Xach: nyef: i have had a few ideas about making every quicklisp system temporarily invisible, then handling the missing-component error. but then i'm not sure how to load that component quietly without potentially loading other non-quicklisp components quietly.
2014-12-15T20:41:59Z Xach: and i thought about making it return the *wrong* pathname, but that won't work either
2014-12-15T20:42:06Z Xach: ...handling that error some clever way
2014-12-15T20:42:39Z nyef: ... Make ALL of the systems temporarily invisible?
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2014-12-15T20:43:24Z nyef: At any rate, it does sound like a pain of a problem.
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2014-12-15T20:43:25Z Xach: hmm
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2014-12-15T20:45:04Z Xach: making them all invisible has a devilish charm
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2014-12-15T20:56:08Z fe[nl]ix: somebody summoned me
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2014-12-15T20:57:21Z fe[nl]ix: Xach, ack006: libfixposix is separate because it needs autoconf & automake
2014-12-15T20:57:44Z Xach: foom: there you go.
2014-12-15T20:57:51Z fe[nl]ix: putting that into an ASDF extension would not be a good idea
2014-12-15T20:57:55Z ack006: fe[nl]ix: ah, i see. thanks for looking into it :-)
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2014-12-15T20:58:15Z fe[nl]ix: foom: and I would use libfixposix outside iolib
2014-12-15T20:58:37Z fe[nl]ix: it's IMO the best POSIX compat layer out there
2014-12-15T20:58:54Z fe[nl]ix: and definitely more useable than libbsd or gnulib
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2014-12-15T21:00:42Z foom: Could have an asdf extension which just shells out to run autoconf, automake, make?
2014-12-15T21:00:58Z foom: Only difficult part seems where to put and then how to find the resulting .so.
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2014-12-15T21:01:47Z fe[nl]ix: I should probably advertise it more
2014-12-15T21:01:52Z nyef: And how do you tie that into the practice of using S-L-A-D :EXECUTABLE T and shipping the resulting binary off to another computer?
2014-12-15T21:01:53Z foom: fe[nl]ix: a lot of the stuff in it looked to me like wrappers not because of compat/portability but because it's hard to use macros from lisp.
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2014-12-15T21:02:53Z foom: Just from a first glance. But I'd not have considered that as something I'd ever want except from another language's FFI.
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2014-12-15T21:03:37Z foom: If my impression was wrong, sorry, I didn't spend much time looking at it.
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2014-12-15T21:04:22Z fe[nl]ix: foom: it started as macro wrapper, but then it evolved
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2014-12-15T21:05:13Z fe[nl]ix: I wasn't satisfied with the compatibility and availability of posix_spawn so I wrote something better(IMO)
2014-12-15T21:06:00Z fe[nl]ix: the wrappers hide the possible lack of O_CLOEXEC and issue a fcntl underneath where necessary
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2014-12-15T21:06:59Z fe[nl]ix: I moved almost all OS-dependent code from iolib to autoconf-land where it's easier to do it
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2014-12-15T21:09:58Z akkad: is there a freeware clone of capi?
2014-12-15T21:10:04Z Xach: akkad: no.
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2014-12-15T21:10:49Z akkad: can we unban ams?
2014-12-15T21:10:55Z Xach: No.
2014-12-15T21:11:20Z Ober: why not?
2014-12-15T21:11:41Z akkad: ok
2014-12-15T21:11:53Z Xach: Because I don't think it's worth it.
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2014-12-15T21:22:44Z wasamasa: who is ams?
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2014-12-15T21:25:26Z Xach: Alfred M. Szmidt, who, when he was here, frequently started arguments and insulted various people. The noise became bannable.
2014-12-15T21:25:43Z Xach: All the way back in November of 2012, by the logs.
2014-12-15T21:26:47Z wasamasa: thanks
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2014-12-15T21:33:09Z nikki93: any of you guys tried the nimrod language?
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2014-12-15T21:35:46Z genii is now known as ChristmasPresent
2014-12-15T21:37:18Z Shinmera: Even if we did it wouldn't be on topic.
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2014-12-15T21:38:50Z akkad: yeah: we are here to 1. Answer SICP stuff, and 2. Answer: "Can lisp do this or that?"
2014-12-15T21:39:51Z dlowe: SICP is in Scheme. :p
2014-12-15T21:40:05Z dlowe: There's ##lisp for discussing any language in the lisp family
2014-12-15T21:40:49Z Bicyclidine: i believe that is the joke
2014-12-15T21:41:10Z dlowe: It can be difficult to tell.
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2014-12-15T22:06:29Z dim: FWIW ams has been a pita on #emacs too and I'm ok with him being banned both from #emacs and here
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2014-12-15T22:16:42Z milosn: maw maw
2014-12-15T22:16:43Z milosn: :D
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2014-12-15T22:34:57Z DeadTrickster: sbcl stopped all networking with Unexpected errno 24 (SB-BSD-SOCKETS:GET-PROTOCOL-BY-NAME "tcp")
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2014-12-15T22:37:39Z drmeister: What is the most useful key combo for evaluating stuff in SLIME?   M-C-x?   C-x-C-e?
2014-12-15T22:37:59Z adlai uses C-cC-c and M-x force-compile-system
2014-12-15T22:38:11Z _death: I usually use C-M-x
2014-12-15T22:38:14Z adlai: er that's ,force-compile-system
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2014-12-15T22:38:27Z drmeister: Is C-cC-c supposed to print a result?
2014-12-15T22:38:27Z _death: sometimes C-c C-l
2014-12-15T22:38:50Z adlai: isn't C-cC-l the one that leaves implementation-specific fasls?
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2014-12-15T22:39:01Z adlai: since it usually doesn't work through asdf
2014-12-15T22:39:05Z Bicyclidine: DeadTrickster: ran out of fds?
2014-12-15T22:39:18Z DeadTrickster: yep
2014-12-15T22:39:29Z DeadTrickster: but it's just drakma in a loop
2014-12-15T22:39:39Z mood: drmeister: C-c C-c doesn't print anything (unless there are warnings) for me
2014-12-15T22:39:48Z _death: adlai: not everything I do has a system
2014-12-15T22:40:06Z adlai: sounds like you need a better ~drumroll~ system
2014-12-15T22:40:19Z drmeister: Ok, C-c C-c generates compiler messages but it doesn't generate output.
2014-12-15T22:40:21Z _death: adlai: also, it loads.. C-c C-k compiles
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2014-12-15T22:42:39Z _death: in the scratch buffer C-j is handy
2014-12-15T22:42:47Z dim: FWIW I usually ql:quickload my stuff manually once then C-M-x away
2014-12-15T22:43:05Z dim: and sometimes C-c C-l to validate lots of changes in a single file
2014-12-15T22:43:30Z drmeister: M-C-x evaluates stuff just fine.   Why would you use C-c C-c to compile a DEFUN and not M-C-x?
2014-12-15T22:43:54Z _death: drmeister: I guess because slime then highlights errors/warnings
2014-12-15T22:44:13Z mood: drmeister: I believe I got into using it because C-c C-c highlights the part being compiled, or something
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2014-12-15T22:44:32Z drmeister: It highlights errors - does it?   That's interesting.  I'll have to figure out how to support that.
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2014-12-15T22:46:26Z drmeister: C-c C-c doesn't seem to work properly - must investigate.
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2014-12-15T22:55:44Z drmeister: M-C-x works just fine.
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2014-12-15T22:56:07Z drmeister: I have the beginnings of a SLIME interface.
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2014-12-15T23:05:38Z CrazyM4n: So I've decided I wanted to learn a lisp dialect - just for fun
2014-12-15T23:05:51Z CrazyM4n: What's the difference between CLisp and Scheme?
2014-12-15T23:06:14Z Bicyclidine: they're different languages
2014-12-15T23:06:31Z Bicyclidine: so, lots of stuff.
2014-12-15T23:06:59Z CrazyM4n: Okay, but they have strikingly similar syntaxes
2014-12-15T23:07:04Z kristof: They're not extraordinarily different. The same concepts are there. The biggest differences lie in the object system, basic types, and what standard functions are provided
2014-12-15T23:07:21Z kristof: Oh, and Scheme has continuations, CL does not.
2014-12-15T23:07:25Z CrazyM4n: Where can I look through the standard libraries?
2014-12-15T23:07:30Z Bicyclidine: syntax isn't what you should look at in a language
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2014-12-15T23:07:56Z Xach: CrazyM4n: common lisp is specified by http://l1sp.org/cl/
2014-12-15T23:07:57Z CrazyM4n: That's why I'm asking, Bicyclidine
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2014-12-15T23:08:12Z kristof: CrazyM4n: The hyperspec™ has all the functions listed. ANSI Common Lisp, by Paul Graham, is a good walkthrough of Common Lisp.
2014-12-15T23:08:24Z Xach: It is a bad walkthrough of Common Lisp.
2014-12-15T23:08:27Z kristof: Oh :(
2014-12-15T23:08:29Z Bicyclidine: for scheme you want the r7rs. #scheme would know better of course
2014-12-15T23:08:36Z Xach: If you read it, you may think that CL and Scheme are more similar than they really are.
2014-12-15T23:09:04Z Xach: Practical Common Lisp covers more CL ground.
2014-12-15T23:09:07Z kristof: I meant it more as a "here are all the features of Common Lisp" book, not a "here's how to idiomatically use Common Lisp"
2014-12-15T23:09:41Z CrazyM4n: Which one is used more? I'd assume Common Lisp is
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2014-12-15T23:09:58Z CrazyM4n: And whichever one is used more would probably be the one that I'd like to start with
2014-12-15T23:10:07Z Xach: The problem, for me, is that it's more like "Here is some depth on the features of Common Lisp I like, and here is a tiny bit about the parts I hate, along with discouragement against using them."
2014-12-15T23:10:19Z kristof: Xach: Okay, I would agree with that sentiment.
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2014-12-15T23:10:39Z kristof: CrazyM4n: I think both Scheme and Common Lisp are equally unpopular. :)
2014-12-15T23:10:40Z Xach: I think it's got good ideas if you can put them in context. But it's hard to do that if it's the first book you read.
2014-12-15T23:11:17Z CrazyM4n: :P
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2014-12-15T23:11:50Z kristof: CrazyM4n: This is a predominantly common lisp channel, so most of us vastly prefer CL to Scheme.
2014-12-15T23:12:13Z CrazyM4n: kristof: I'm not worried about it being unpopular, I learned J for pete's sake :)
2014-12-15T23:12:25Z CrazyM4n: And I understand, but it's nice to know what I'm getting into
2014-12-15T23:12:35Z kristof: Well, what were you looking for in particular?
2014-12-15T23:13:30Z CrazyM4n: Well, I know haskell to an extent, and I wanted to learn another functional language, and Lisp seems rather nice
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2014-12-15T23:13:44Z CrazyM4n: Lisp isn't pure, correct?
2014-12-15T23:13:48Z kristof: Nope
2014-12-15T23:13:55Z CrazyM4n: It is pure?
2014-12-15T23:14:00Z kristof: It is not
2014-12-15T23:14:08Z Bicyclidine: it has side effects.
2014-12-15T23:14:24Z CrazyM4n: Okay, that's what I wanted
2014-12-15T23:14:29Z CrazyM4n: Is it lazy?
2014-12-15T23:14:36Z mood: Nope
2014-12-15T23:14:36Z Bicyclidine: nope
2014-12-15T23:14:42Z CrazyM4n: Hm
2014-12-15T23:15:05Z kristof: CrazyM4n: When you talk about impure functional programming languages, that really only requires 3 things: the ability to accept function pointers, the ability to return function pointers, and the ability to construct closures
2014-12-15T23:15:20Z kristof: That's doesn't mean spectacularly much. :)
2014-12-15T23:15:38Z Bicyclidine: not much point in putting "pointers" in that
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2014-12-15T23:15:51Z kristof: I think in terms of pointers, sorry
2014-12-15T23:16:07Z Xach: common lisp style does not especially emphasize functional programming over other techniques, either.
2014-12-15T23:16:13Z CrazyM4n: Closures?
2014-12-15T23:16:31Z Bicyclidine: functions retaining access to the lexical environment they're defined in.
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2014-12-15T23:16:59Z CrazyM4n: Ah
2014-12-15T23:17:16Z kristof: There's a good chapter on closures in Let Over Lambda.
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2014-12-15T23:17:49Z antoszka: A good part of Let Over Lambda is actually about/around closures.
2014-12-15T23:18:08Z antoszka: As the title suggests, it's pretty much the central concept ;)
2014-12-15T23:18:21Z CrazyM4n: Since it's impure, I assume there's nothing like Monads or anything
2014-12-15T23:18:35Z CrazyM4n: Is it strict?
2014-12-15T23:18:45Z kristof: By not being lazy, it's strict.
2014-12-15T23:18:48Z Bicyclidine: it is strict, but there are restarts
2014-12-15T23:19:00Z Bicyclidine: and there are monads, drewc wrote a monadic parser combinator library
2014-12-15T23:19:07Z CrazyM4n: Er, not strict
2014-12-15T23:19:25Z CrazyM4n: Sorry, I'm tired. I meant to ask about if it has a strict type system
2014-12-15T23:19:32Z CrazyM4n: Or if there is a type system at all
2014-12-15T23:19:35Z malice_ is now known as malice
2014-12-15T23:19:42Z Bicyclidine: actually i guess macros could be non-strict, in some way
2014-12-15T23:19:47Z kristof: CrazyM4n: Common Lisp is a strongly, dynamically typed language.
2014-12-15T23:19:55Z kristof: CrazyM4n: You can't lie about types. But they're late-bound.
2014-12-15T23:19:59Z Bicyclidine: with optional annotation types
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2014-12-15T23:21:24Z CrazyM4n: Can you compile lisp or is it interpreted?
2014-12-15T23:21:33Z kristof: CrazyM4n: My favorite parts of Common Lisp include its object system, its condition system, and its macro facilities :)
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2014-12-15T23:21:39Z Bicyclidine: it's usually compiled
2014-12-15T23:21:41Z Bicyclidine: clhs compile
2014-12-15T23:21:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm
2014-12-15T23:22:40Z CrazyM4n: How fast is it? Compared to python, maybe
2014-12-15T23:22:58Z kristof: Much faster in naive comparisons. That depends, though
2014-12-15T23:23:21Z Bicyclidine: most implementations much faster than cpython, but cpython is slow so that's not saying much
2014-12-15T23:23:28Z kristof: Python, by itself, is single threaded and interpreted. Also, the fact that everything is boxed in Python means a lot of potentially unnecessary dereferences
2014-12-15T23:23:40Z Bicyclidine: sbcl and ccl target native code, clisp has a bytecode interpreter, abcl does jvm bytecode. bla bla bla
2014-12-15T23:24:50Z kristof: CrazyM4n: However, stuff that needs to be VERY fast in Python is usually written in C.
2014-12-15T23:25:18Z kristof: CrazyM4n: SBCL and CCL are native code compilers like Bicyclidine mentioned, which produce very optimized code. Also, those two compilers support multithreading.
2014-12-15T23:27:10Z CrazyM4n: I almost don't want to ask to avoid a flame war, but what about Racket? Looking at the code examples, it looks quite nice and much more updated than CL or Scheme
2014-12-15T23:27:52Z kristof: Comparable to CL.
2014-12-15T23:28:00Z kristof: Excellent language :)
2014-12-15T23:28:01Z Bicyclidine: look, you can try more than one language. i don't want to sit here making up a pros/cons table for you, just check 'em out, it's all free anyway
2014-12-15T23:28:01Z Xach: CrazyM4n: this is a channel for people who like and prefer Common Lisp. The people who like and prefer other stuff chat about how great it is elsewhere.
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2014-12-15T23:28:13Z kristof: ^
2014-12-15T23:28:27Z antoszka: CrazyM4n: It's a nice language, but very different for being a Scheme.
2014-12-15T23:28:31Z CrazyM4n: I'm not asking about how great it is, I literally know nothing about lisp
2014-12-15T23:28:46Z CrazyM4n: Okay, maybe I'll look at it later then
2014-12-15T23:28:49Z Xach: CrazyM4n: Racket is not Common Lisp, so you should check somewhere other than #lisp for info.
2014-12-15T23:28:53Z Bicyclidine: lisp, scheme, and racket are all different languages. this channel is only for common lisp.
2014-12-15T23:29:22Z Bicyclidine: which is why i mentioned #scheme earlier; they would of course know more about scheme there
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2014-12-15T23:29:28Z CrazyM4n: Okay, well what do you guys recommend to learn Common Lisp?
2014-12-15T23:29:42Z kristof: Practical Common Lisp
2014-12-15T23:29:42Z Xach: CrazyM4n: I really like Practical Common Lisp. It's free online, and you can buy it, too.
2014-12-15T23:29:43Z akkad: Uncommoners unwelcomed
2014-12-15T23:29:44Z akkad: Crazy Practical Common Lisp then probably PAIP
2014-12-15T23:29:57Z Xach: CrazyM4n: Paradigms of AI Programming is a good CL book, too.
2014-12-15T23:30:16Z kristof: CrazyM4n: It's also a good idea, after PCL, to just browse through the hyperspec and familiarize yourself with what's available to you
2014-12-15T23:30:17Z akkad: avoid PG :P
2014-12-15T23:30:19Z Xach: CrazyM4n: i was put off by the title, because I'm not really interested in AI topics, but it's actually a very good book on general CL concepts and techniques.
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2014-12-15T23:30:37Z kristof: And not a very good book on AI
2014-12-15T23:30:37Z akkad: there's an org-drill of the clhs
2014-12-15T23:30:50Z akkad: http://linbsd.org/clhs.org
2014-12-15T23:31:42Z CrazyM4n: I will look at all those, thanks
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2014-12-15T23:33:33Z CrazyM4n: Practical Common Lisp looks pretty great
2014-12-15T23:34:01Z kristof: Yup! Now go forth and prosper!
2014-12-15T23:34:02Z antoszka: CrazyM4n: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf ← this is another important thing to read once you start playing around in the REPL and strange things start biting you in the ass ;)
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2014-12-15T23:34:24Z CrazyM4n: Now, aren't there like 20 CL compilers? Which should I use on Ubuntu?
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2014-12-15T23:35:11Z antoszka: CrazyM4n: sbcl
2014-12-15T23:35:11Z Bicyclidine: sbcl or ccl probably
2014-12-15T23:35:20Z Xach: CrazyM4n: SBCL and Clozure CL are both very good.
2014-12-15T23:35:21Z antoszka: and/or ccl, yeah
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2014-12-15T23:35:37Z Bicyclidine: sbcl's in the repos, so i guess that's easiest
2014-12-15T23:35:38Z Xach: CrazyM4n: It's usually best, for CL software, to avoid the package system for installation, though.
2014-12-15T23:35:42Z kristof: Which repos?
2014-12-15T23:36:02Z Bicyclidine: ubuntu's
2014-12-15T23:36:05Z kristof: Oh, ubuntu
2014-12-15T23:36:06Z CrazyM4n: Xach: Why do you say?
2014-12-15T23:36:14Z kristof: CrazyM4n: People forget to update them.
2014-12-15T23:36:15Z Bicyclidine: 'cos it's always out of date
2014-12-15T23:36:16Z Xach: CrazyM4n: it's often very out of date. sometimes it's not, but it often is.
2014-12-15T23:36:49Z kristof: That's how it is with every other language, too. People use their own community tools to get updated source, not the distribution's. Which makes sense.
2014-12-15T23:36:50Z Bicyclidine: i haven't had much trouble with just installing the implementation from repos, though. except for one stupid bug report i filed from the out-of-date-ness
2014-12-15T23:37:38Z CrazyM4n: Does it matter that much? SBCL from the repos is 1.1.14 and the newest version is 1.2.6
2014-12-15T23:37:44Z CrazyM4n: Or should I update it
2014-12-15T23:37:52Z Xach: As long as everything works, it's good. If things go bad, it's typical advice to try to get it from the primary upstream source.
2014-12-15T23:37:52Z kristof: You should update.
2014-12-15T23:38:09Z Bicyclidine: it's probably ok for starting out
2014-12-15T23:38:19Z CrazyM4n: I'll update then, it's not too big of a pain (I hope)
2014-12-15T23:38:31Z Bicyclidine: nah
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2014-12-15T23:42:03Z CrazyM4n: How do you, you know, exit the REPL?
2014-12-15T23:42:22Z Bicyclidine: EOF or (sb-ext:quit). you should get slime
2014-12-15T23:42:23Z jasom: CrazyM4n: implementation dependent, but (cl-user::quit) usually works
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2014-12-15T23:42:59Z Bicyclidine: oops, it's 'exit' now
2014-12-15T23:44:44Z CrazyM4n: Does CL interface well with hardware? Like, how easy is it to read files or get USB input or something of the like
2014-12-15T23:44:55Z kristof: Plenty simple.
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2014-12-15T23:45:16Z kristof: Well
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2014-12-15T23:45:23Z jasom: CrazyM4n: not any harder than any other systems language
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2014-12-15T23:45:33Z CrazyM4n: Makes sense
2014-12-15T23:45:34Z kristof: CrazyM4n: Hardware stuff isn't in the standard, but stuff like SBCL has plenty of support for it
2014-12-15T23:46:08Z CrazyM4n: On Linux I guess it's easy to read from hardware from the streams in /dev/ and stuff
2014-12-15T23:46:09Z Bicyclidine: files are supported, i'd hardly call that hardware though
2014-12-15T23:46:23Z kristof: CrazyM4n: But that's a good point that jasom's making. Common Lisp is a general purpose systems language, and you should expect it to be capable of anything you want, besides maybe software with real-time constraints.
2014-12-15T23:46:25Z CrazyM4n: But does it work well with those is what I'm asking - the file streams
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2014-12-15T23:46:30Z Bicyclidine: yeah, sure
2014-12-15T23:46:59Z CrazyM4n: Okay, I was just wondering because it was kind of a pain to work with them in another couple languages
2014-12-15T23:47:18Z Xach: The downside of CL compared to other programming environments is taht because it's not very popular, the pool of people writing and giving away free code is smaller. So for a given task, you may find that you're the first or only person interested in it, and you have to write stuff yourself. There's just less stuff to reuse.
2014-12-15T23:47:41Z Xach: (One downside, not the only one.)
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2014-12-15T23:48:46Z jasom: CrazyM4n: USB is a pain to work with in general; lisp doesn't make it any harder
2014-12-15T23:49:28Z nyef: Hmm? USB from Lisp? Been there, done that.
2014-12-15T23:49:44Z CrazyM4n: That goes without saying, but I was referencing the file streams in general, like /dev/urandom
2014-12-15T23:49:52Z CrazyM4n: Maybe I worded it weirdly
2014-12-15T23:50:09Z CrazyM4n: I definitely worded it terribly, actually
2014-12-15T23:50:18Z jasom: CrazyM4n: yeah, it's just "open" (or more often "with-open-file") and set element-type to (unsigned-byte 8)
2014-12-15T23:50:21Z Bicyclidine: there are 'external formats' so you can specify you want to read bytes from urandom or whatever
2014-12-15T23:50:26Z kristof: CrazyM4n: The standard has functions for reading from file streams, and for dealign with binary data.
2014-12-15T23:50:40Z CrazyM4n: That's nice
2014-12-15T23:51:27Z kristof: CrazyM4n: Also, Common Lisp macros allow you to write safer code. The macro WITH-OPEN-FILE makes sure to close your file after you leave the scope of that code. UNWIND-PROTECT will execute code (usually cleanup code), even on exceptions. Etc.
2014-12-15T23:51:39Z kristof: CrazyM4n: Compare that to C++ where you don't have stack unwind protection.
2014-12-15T23:52:11Z kristof: That eliminates entire code patterns.
2014-12-15T23:52:26Z CrazyM4n: That's definitely useful, sounds like it's kind of like with in python, am I not mistaken?
2014-12-15T23:52:37Z wasamasa: yes, python has special syntax for it
2014-12-15T23:52:54Z wasamasa: CL is powerful enough to define such a thing if it doesn't exist yet
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2014-12-15T23:54:49Z foom: "Compare that to C++ where you don't have stack unwind protection" are you kidding? C++ has probably the best scoped-resource idiom of any language these days.
2014-12-15T23:55:14Z _death: foom: nope
2014-12-15T23:55:40Z kristof: Destructors are called on stack unwinding, but unwind-protect is more general
2014-12-15T23:55:42Z foom: I mean, there's plenty to dislike about C++, but saying it can't close a file on unwind is just wrong.
2014-12-15T23:55:53Z kristof: Well, I wasn't saying that :P
2014-12-15T23:56:01Z CrazyM4n: C++ probably wasn't the best comparison for that, I agree
2014-12-15T23:56:02Z _death: foom: it can, and does, but that encourages sloppy code
2014-12-15T23:56:17Z CrazyM4n: C would have been a better comparison, probably
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