2014-12-12T00:00:18Z |3b|: theseb: a lot of CL itself is defined as macros
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2014-12-12T00:00:56Z |3b|: focussing on macros seems like a bad idea though
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2014-12-12T00:33:58Z yenda: so, anybody here using emacs to lisp ? I'm considering a switch to start learning both, I'm currently using the editor of the beast :) and doing lots of python
2014-12-12T00:34:16Z Bike: most people in this channel use emacs with slime, i think.
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2014-12-12T00:35:35Z yenda: and do you ?
2014-12-12T00:35:49Z Bike: yes.
2014-12-12T00:37:52Z yenda: are you coding in emacs lisp as well ?
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2014-12-12T00:40:22Z gabc: yenda: Although emacs is really good, I wouldn't recommend learning emacs and common lisp (I assume) at the same time. You could learn about elisp, tho.
2014-12-12T00:43:22Z jasom: I will disagree with gabc; you can use emacs as a better REPL right away if you don't mind not using any keyboard shortcuts
2014-12-12T00:43:45Z jasom: all the basic editing features are available from pull-down menus; so you don't actually need to learn any emacs to use slime.
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2014-12-12T00:44:08Z gabc: Hum, indeed. Yeah, he's right. (I always forget menus, sorry)
2014-12-12T00:44:17Z jasom: and with the exception of vim, which is so-so, all text editors I've used other than emacs are horrible for editing lisp code
2014-12-12T00:44:51Z jasom tried all of the code editors in his package managment system and found only vim could even indent sexpressions
2014-12-12T00:45:27Z jasom: perhaps there are commercial editors out there that can do an okay job
2014-12-12T00:46:50Z jasom: I wrote a plugin for geany that at least does very basic sexp indentation (but doesn't handle any standard macros or special forms)
2014-12-12T00:48:25Z jasom: that combined with cl-launch made it fairly easy to have a c-like development experience, which sucks compared to slime, but is better than most non-lisp-centric dev environments
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2014-12-12T00:49:21Z yenda: I'm actually a mouse hater so I don't mind learning any shortcut if it makes sense
2014-12-12T00:49:31Z gabc: Well, there's also LispWorks and AllegroCL. Although, I don't know if I would recommend them.
2014-12-12T00:49:39Z yenda: even my browser is keyboard driven :D
2014-12-12T00:49:44Z jasom: yenda: well the good news is that the pulldown menus show the shortcut
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2014-12-12T00:51:03Z yenda: is there some kind of logic or unity in emacs key bindings ?
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2014-12-12T00:51:21Z jasom: yes
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2014-12-12T00:51:40Z gabc: Yes, but you need to get used to it.
2014-12-12T00:51:57Z pjb: yenda: emacs lisp is a lisp-2 and therefore relatively closer to Common Lisp than to scheme.  That doesn't say much, since it's possible to write lisp expressions than can be evaluated to basically the same effect on both lisp (and even on the three: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/index.html  but when you include scheme, that becomes silly.
2014-12-12T00:52:16Z jasom: most of the base commands start with C-x followed by a mnemonic key
2014-12-12T00:52:19Z pjb: yenda: the problem is that emacs lisp has some functions that are like Common Lisp, but that are actually slightly different.
2014-12-12T00:52:28Z jasom: then the slime extensions start with C-c
2014-12-12T00:52:38Z pjb: yenda: for example, rplaca in CL returns the cons, but in elisp it returns the value.
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2014-12-12T00:53:24Z jasom: yenda: note that rplaca has a side-effect, so it is possible to use it a lot without the return value, and then one day discover they are different, which is why this is a subtle difference
2014-12-12T00:53:33Z pjb: yenda: also elisp has more restricted typology. eg. strings are not vectors, there are no native structures (or CLOS), etc.
2014-12-12T00:54:07Z pjb: And worse: (/ 1 2) 1/2 in CL, 0 in elisp!!!
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2014-12-12T00:55:25Z pjb: yenda: that said, once you've learned Common Lisp, you will be able to write emacs lisp code easily (and to customize emacs), and you'll even be able to write scheme code with a short refresher (ie. just reading r5rs, 50 pages).
2014-12-12T00:56:23Z pjb: yenda: there is logic to emacs key binding :-)
2014-12-12T00:57:37Z pjb: let's say, it's an esoteric logic revealed in the 3rd level of the Church of Emacs. https://stallman.org/saintignucius.jpg
2014-12-12T00:58:05Z gabc: Ahah yeah
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2014-12-12T01:00:05Z yenda: I actually know about that stuff, I've been thinking about starting to use one of the 2 editors seriously for a couple years and I concluded that vim was probably more rational and RMS was crazy
2014-12-12T01:00:23Z pjb: Wrong conclusion.  Never to late to correct.
2014-12-12T01:00:26Z pjb: too
2014-12-12T01:00:47Z yenda: but now I think it's the right thing even if the wrong thing is better I always prefer the right one
2014-12-12T01:01:18Z pjb: yenda: perhaps you'll be interested in reading http://www.finseth.com/craft/
2014-12-12T01:01:26Z yenda: that's why I'm growing so much intrest in lisp now
2014-12-12T01:01:28Z gabc: Besides, you could you Evil, which seems to work quite nicely.
2014-12-12T01:02:09Z antoszka: Evil is the ultimate concoction.
2014-12-12T01:02:20Z antoszka: (honestly)
2014-12-12T01:03:26Z antoszka: All your vim habits are belong to you :). Except maybe pressing ^c instead of escape, which doesn't go well with Evil (which is my main gripe).
2014-12-12T01:03:35Z yenda: i'm thinking about it, I'm not binded to vim only way, only been using exclusively for a couple weeks, but I configured my entire system around the hkjl moves
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2014-12-12T01:04:08Z jasom: I use evil
2014-12-12T01:04:19Z yenda: actually I think the movement key hjkl are the only ones I would really miss
2014-12-12T01:04:23Z jasom: if it's only a couple weeks, then not a big deal to go otherwise
2014-12-12T01:04:25Z |3b|: yenda: both editors are crazy in different ways, but emacs has better support for CL interaction
2014-12-12T01:04:43Z drewc: yenda: until 2004 I used vim exclusively. Then I started programming in CL full time, and inferior lisp was born!
2014-12-12T01:06:28Z yenda: if I start using emacs I feel like I'll use it for everything
2014-12-12T01:06:36Z drewc: yenda: (meaning that I started to use emacs more and more because of the interaction with CL)
2014-12-12T01:06:40Z gabc: You say that like it's bad.
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2014-12-12T01:07:21Z drewc: yenda: emacs is a good <insert thing here>!
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2014-12-12T01:08:00Z zRecursive: ERC, Mew ...
2014-12-12T01:08:10Z antoszka: I love the push-to-talk logic of vim, the expressiveness of its „grammar” (ie. delete those three paragraphs), the extreme usefulness of the . repeat command (with clearly specified command bounds). Combine that with readline/emacs line editing (which is really poor in vim), and SLIME and all, and you really win :)
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2014-12-12T01:09:11Z pjb: But emacs programmability is very nice for a programmer. I'll never understand programmers who don't use emacs.
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2014-12-12T01:09:52Z pjb: For a secretary writing legal documents, I guess vim is nice. (But even for secretaries, if you don't tell them they're programming you can make them use emacs).
2014-12-12T01:10:39Z gabc: I don't mind vim, I mean, you can do a lot with it. I don't get people who use thing like notepad++ or Idle, tho.
2014-12-12T01:11:08Z yenda: gabc: it is if sunddely I want to do something and I discovered its done better with a single purposed tool
2014-12-12T01:11:16Z yenda: I'll be despaired :D
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2014-12-12T01:11:25Z pjb: That said, I would teach ed, sed, vi, and emacs to newbies.
2014-12-12T01:11:44Z pjb: week 1: ed; week 2: sed; week 3: vi; week 4 and the rest of their life: emacs.
2014-12-12T01:12:14Z gabc: yenda: you could probably use it from emacs. But you know, emacs ain't everything. I don't use it for IRC (for instance)
2014-12-12T01:12:34Z yenda: pjb: what would you teach of vi in a week ?
2014-12-12T01:12:44Z pjb: I find it so awkward to type any text in other applications!  I use erc for irc.
2014-12-12T01:13:15Z pjb: yenda: when you know ed, there's not much more to learn to use vi.  That's the whole point of the experience.
2014-12-12T01:13:31Z pjb: vi was just a wrapper on ed originally.
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2014-12-12T01:14:03Z pjb: Of course, vim is a rewrite and complexified.  I left vi on A/UX 2.0 and switched to TextEdit.app and then emacs.
2014-12-12T01:14:13Z pjb: So I never used vim really.
2014-12-12T01:14:50Z yenda: gabc: that's the thing, I would't use anything else. right now I'm using vim for text editing only and the rest is CLI tools
2014-12-12T01:15:09Z gabc: yenda: there's no law that once you use emacs, you can't use other tools.
2014-12-12T01:15:31Z pjb: Yes, emacs is a lisp machine integrated on a posix machine.
2014-12-12T01:15:53Z pjb: So you can use external tools, but you can also use internal composition (lisp functions).
2014-12-12T01:16:37Z yenda: gabc: there might not be any law, but I learn by increments, when I try something I jusge superior for rational reasons I don't go back
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2014-12-12T01:17:12Z zRecursive Since entering emacs world, i never want to go back to VI(M) now :)
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2014-12-12T01:17:47Z yenda: that's why my mouse is close to dead now that I realized how easy it is to learn loads of shortcuts, which I didnt do before because of lazyness and studies
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2014-12-12T01:19:54Z yenda: pjb: that's why I find your newbie teaching plan intresting it makes sense
2014-12-12T01:20:35Z pjb: The thing is that TextEdit.app implements the basic emacs key binding (the control- keys).  So that made going to emacs very easy.
2014-12-12T01:21:06Z pjb: It still does, on MacOSX.  You can use the same emacs Control- keys in most text editing boxes on MacOSX.
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2014-12-12T01:24:19Z yenda: one of the things that bother me is the size of emacs source code, it's the same with latex, how can they be so big, is the code clean or is it a big mess ?
2014-12-12T01:25:06Z pjb: It's not that big.  (There are much bigger bodies of code).
2014-12-12T01:25:40Z yenda: have you worked on some of the sourcecode though ?
2014-12-12T01:26:00Z yenda: I'll be intrested in participating to the project if I come to master it latter on
2014-12-12T01:26:01Z pjb: There are parts that could be cleaner, I'd say.  I mean, it's not rare to find functions that take 5 pages. (ie. I'd say there are parts that lack some abstraction).
2014-12-12T01:26:10Z pjb: But on the other hand, there are other parts that are quite well done.
2014-12-12T01:26:51Z pjb: If you want, you can ask on #emacs and check with the emacs maintainers.
2014-12-12T01:26:58Z yenda: yea there is bigger bodies of code like in latex :D i don't know how they managed to make it 2gigs
2014-12-12T01:28:06Z yenda: Do you use lisp for it's meta programming capabilities btw ?
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2014-12-12T01:28:35Z yenda: i'm not even sure I truely understand what it means
2014-12-12T01:28:52Z pjb: Of course.
2014-12-12T01:29:03Z pjb: And it's used in emacs.
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2014-12-12T01:29:09Z pjb: There are DSL inside.
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2014-12-12T01:35:08Z yenda: zRecursive: do you use Evil or did you got used to the different mouvement keys ?
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2014-12-12T01:42:46Z yenda: anyway I'm going to bother the emacs channel now, and later I'll come back when I'll start lisping :) (could take a while, I have exams and lisp won't do them for me)
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2014-12-12T01:42:58Z yenda: ty all for the advices
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2014-12-12T02:03:33Z loke: Xach: Your block post is pretty spot on saying the same things as I was thinking
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2014-12-12T02:06:13Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hello all, I've got a list of structs, each struct containing an array. When I try to change the first element of the first struct's array, all structs change.
2014-12-12T02:06:29Z Pixel_Outlaw: How are structs linked to make them all change with modifying one member?
2014-12-12T02:06:48Z loke: Pixel_Outlaw: I suppose that each element refers to the same struct instance?
2014-12-12T02:07:14Z oGMo: _they're_ not linked, you're pointing to the _same array_ in all of them
2014-12-12T02:07:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: I generated them with a LOOP with collecting clause. Would that cause such an error?
2014-12-12T02:07:26Z loke: Pixel_Outlaw: Did you collect the same instance?
2014-12-12T02:08:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: (defstruct thing (beads #(1 2 3))
2014-12-12T02:08:04Z Pixel_Outlaw: (loop for i from 0 to 3 collecting (make-thing))
2014-12-12T02:08:28Z loke: Ah, yes. You have different structs, but the array inside is the same one
2014-12-12T02:08:33Z oGMo: yes, and you probably have the default for the struct member as a literal somewhere
2014-12-12T02:08:46Z loke: You are modifying a constant, that's illegal (undefined behaviour)
2014-12-12T02:09:10Z loke: Pixel_Outlaw: #(...) in code creates a constant. Don't change them
2014-12-12T02:09:15Z loke: You want MAKE-ARRAY
2014-12-12T02:09:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ahhhh ok.
2014-12-12T02:09:40Z loke: Or possibly (VECTOR 1 2 3)
2014-12-12T02:09:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: I thought I was getting away with shorter syntax.
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2014-12-12T02:10:08Z loke: Pixel_Outlaw: no. Thye are different htings. #(1 2 3) is like '(1 2 3) but for arrays. They both create constants.
2014-12-12T02:10:25Z loke: (and the constant is created at read-time, so you'll be using the same one)
2014-12-12T02:10:33Z oGMo: "constant" isn't the greatest thing to call it
2014-12-12T02:10:55Z loke: oGMo: I know, but it's reasonable to think of them as constants.
2014-12-12T02:10:58Z oGMo: it's a literal object, and it's stored as such
2014-12-12T02:11:20Z oGMo: loke: then you're surprised when they change ;)
2014-12-12T02:11:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: That makes sense, I thought they
2014-12-12T02:11:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: got evaluated when called.
2014-12-12T02:11:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: creating a new array
2014-12-12T02:11:52Z loke: oGMo: Well, you can randomly change "proper" constants too, so from a a surprising-perspective, they are equivalent.
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2014-12-12T02:15:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks guys, this was actually elisp but the problem was the same. Now I have a working interactive virtual abacus inside my copy of Emacs.
2014-12-12T02:16:00Z loke: Pixel_Outlaw: Because Emacs-Calc is too complex? :-)
2014-12-12T02:16:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: I had a strange urge at 12 AM yesterday. :)
2014-12-12T02:16:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: 19 digit precision!
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2014-12-12T02:17:11Z loke: Pixel_Outlaw: Decimal abacuses (abacï?) are so last millenium.
2014-12-12T02:17:12Z loke: :-)
2014-12-12T02:18:07Z drmeister: I added an implementation dependent DECLARE expression (sys:lambda-name XXX)   as in   (lambda (...) (declare (sys:lambda-name XXX) ...) ...)   or (lambda (...) (declare (sys:lambda-name (setf XXX)) ...) ...)   - I'm finding it very useful for adding names to lambdas for debugging purposes.
2014-12-12T02:19:11Z loke: drmeister: Interesting
2014-12-12T02:19:20Z loke: drmeister: Does any other lisps have that?
2014-12-12T02:19:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: If anyone wants here is my first elisp project the Emacs soroban. http://pastebin.com/gwmnSdKX
2014-12-12T02:19:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks again for the help!
2014-12-12T02:20:09Z drmeister: Not that I know of.  ECL uses (LAMBDA-BLOCK name (...) ...) and SBCL uses NAMED-LAMBDA.  But they require changes to the FUNCTION special operator to support them.
2014-12-12T02:20:41Z drmeister: It's just really nice that Common Lisp supports this kind of extension.
2014-12-12T02:21:51Z drmeister: It's a huge edifice and every where I look - it's really well thought out.
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2014-12-12T02:26:15Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm preachin' to the choir.  It is pretty cool though.
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2014-12-12T02:47:44Z pjb: loke: constant has a precise meaning in CL.  #() doesn't create a constant it reads a literal.  This is very different.
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2014-12-12T02:48:26Z pjb: loke: you meant to write: immutable.
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2014-12-12T02:48:31Z loke: pjb: a constant and a literal must be treated the same from the perspective of the developer, though. ANd the work "constant" is easier to understand
2014-12-12T02:48:53Z pjb: loke: not in CL.  cf. constantp and defconstant.
2014-12-12T02:48:55Z p_l: loke: well, literals are editable... sometimes you might want that. Usually not...
2014-12-12T02:49:41Z loke: p_l: I don't believe (setf (aref #(1 2) 0) 3) is legal CL though?
2014-12-12T02:49:49Z loke: or am I wrong/
2014-12-12T02:49:51Z pjb: It is not conforming.
2014-12-12T02:49:54Z loke: right
2014-12-12T02:50:10Z pjb: But when the implementation have mutable literals, it can do something.
2014-12-12T02:50:40Z p_l: loke: what I can tell you is that SBCL will happily do just that
2014-12-12T02:50:41Z loke: My point was merely that if you mentally treat literals and constants the same, you should be good.
2014-12-12T02:50:53Z loke: p_l: of course. as will Emacs Lisp
2014-12-12T02:51:14Z pjb: the only constants in CL are constant variables.
2014-12-12T02:51:23Z p_l: loke: you can think of it as a bit of implementation leaking upwards
2014-12-12T02:51:27Z pjb: Things like T, PI and (defconstant +hey+ 42)
2014-12-12T02:51:31Z p_l: which might be good or bad
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2014-12-12T02:52:06Z loke: Well _I_ know that. :-) I often change constants while developing. But I know the implications and how to deal with it.
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2014-12-12T02:57:39Z Bike: load-time-value is more the mutable literal thing, yeah?
2014-12-12T02:58:49Z pjb: It's not even literal.
2014-12-12T02:59:22Z pjb: it can return a perfectly mutable object. Only one that is initialized at load time (hence, once).
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2014-12-12T03:01:24Z pjb: (defun f () (loop with l = (load-time-value (list 1 2 3)) for c on l do (incf (car l)) finally (return l)))    (assert (and (eq (f) (f)) (let ((b (copy-list (f))) (a (f))) (not (equal b a)))))
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2014-12-12T03:31:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-12-12T03:32:28Z yenda: good really early morning
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2014-12-12T05:03:20Z emaczen: Can someone help me with the following macro:
2014-12-12T05:03:29Z emaczen: (defmacro infix ((op left right))
2014-12-12T05:03:29Z emaczen: 	   `(,left ,op ,right))
2014-12-12T05:03:41Z emaczen: The idea is to convert prefix to infix
2014-12-12T05:04:12Z Quadrescence: wouldn't you want the reverse usually
2014-12-12T05:04:44Z Bike: what do you need help with
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2014-12-12T05:06:48Z Quadrescence: (defmacro infix (left op right) `(,op ,left ,right))
2014-12-12T05:06:58Z Quadrescence: (infix 3 * (infix 1 + 2))
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2014-12-12T05:12:37Z emaczen: Quadrescence: Thank you very much
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2014-12-12T05:44:06Z beach: drmeister: Are you still here?
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2014-12-12T05:44:46Z drmeister: beach: Hello - yes.   Dozing of with long compilations.
2014-12-12T05:44:49Z drmeister: What's up?
2014-12-12T05:44:55Z beach: drmeister: I made an important change...
2014-12-12T05:44:59Z drmeister: Yes/
2014-12-12T05:45:00Z drmeister: ?
2014-12-12T05:45:22Z beach: drmeister: When an AST is converted to HIR, I always wrap the result in an ENTER instruction with an empty lambda list.
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2014-12-12T05:45:45Z drmeister: So the first instruction is always an ENTER?
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2014-12-12T05:45:52Z beach: In effect, the HIR program becomes a thunk, that, when executed, has the effect of the original form.
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2014-12-12T05:45:56Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-12T05:46:06Z beach: It will simplify a lot of algorithms later on.
2014-12-12T05:46:07Z drmeister: That makes a lot of sense.
2014-12-12T05:46:29Z beach: Yes, in fact, nyef already told me that it made no sense to generate HIR that is not inside some function.
2014-12-12T05:46:43Z beach: And I updated the HIR examples on metamodular.com accordingly.
2014-12-12T05:47:59Z beach: Next, I will simplify the downstream algorithms, because they can now assume that the initial instruction is an ENTER.
2014-12-12T05:48:34Z beach: After that, I will attack the HIR->HIR transformations that are necessary in preparation for HIR->MIR.
2014-12-12T05:49:03Z drmeister: Cool.  I'm cleaning up my compiler to improve debugging.  Every lambda gets a name.
2014-12-12T05:49:32Z beach: drmeister: Yeah.  I am not sure what Cleavir will do with your declaration.
2014-12-12T05:49:45Z beach: drmeister: We might have to do something temporary so that it passes.
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2014-12-12T05:50:24Z drmeister: I think it would name each ENTER
2014-12-12T05:50:38Z beach: The thing that must ultimately be done is to propose a protocol for implementation-specific declarations, so that they are not only accepted, but also handled as the implementation wishes.
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2014-12-12T05:51:26Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I know what it should do.  But it is a Clasp-specific declaration, and I need to handle any implementation-specific declaration, or rather, let the implementation configure Cleavir to do so.
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2014-12-12T05:52:34Z drmeister: Yes, I understand.  But in the end - I'd like it to associate a name with each ENTER instruction.
2014-12-12T05:52:48Z beach: I know.
2014-12-12T05:52:58Z beach: And I must give you the tools so that you can do that.
2014-12-12T05:53:43Z drmeister: I'm saying that largely for my own benefit.  I just figured out what it means for HIR.
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2014-12-12T05:53:56Z beach: Sure.
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2014-12-12T05:58:13Z drmeister: An ENTER instruction corresponds to the entry point of a lambda - is that correct?
2014-12-12T05:59:10Z beach: Right.  Of course at the moment only a single entry point is allowed.  I don't know whether multiple entry points will generate multiple ENTER instructions, but it looks that way.
2014-12-12T06:00:04Z beach: I shouldn't have said "allowed".  I should have said "is ever generated".
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2014-12-12T06:02:03Z H4ns: ok, regarding broken fill-paragraph in emacs 24, lisp-fill-paragraph seems to be broken.  setting fill-paragraph-function to nil makes M-q work again (sorry for the ot).
2014-12-12T06:02:05Z drmeister: Wouldn't multiple entry points just wrap argument handlers that would call or inline the main block of code.  The call could use lots of registers.
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2014-12-12T06:02:32Z beach: H4ns: Good.  I use it all the time for comments.
2014-12-12T06:03:38Z beach: drmeister: Maybe so.
2014-12-12T06:05:03Z beach: drmeister: The question is whether there is an ENTER instruction for each entry point.  Right now, an ENTER instruction is an "argument" to an ENCLOSE instruction, but with multiple entry points, a single ENCLOSE instruction must create multiple entry points.
2014-12-12T06:05:10Z drmeister: Fundamentally, it seems to me that declares only follow the lambda list of a lambda.  I know they can be inserted in many different forms but don't they always end up associated with a lambda?
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2014-12-12T06:06:29Z beach: No.  Not in LOCALLY, LET, LET* etc.
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2014-12-12T06:07:03Z jasom: of course if you implemented all of those with lambda...
2014-12-12T06:07:05Z drmeister: Hmm.  LET is transformed into LAMBDA in SBCL isn't it?
2014-12-12T06:07:11Z beach: Declarations don't necessarily end up "associated with" anything.
2014-12-12T06:07:14Z jasom: drmeister: I doubt it
2014-12-12T06:07:33Z beach: Some declarations only influence subsequent compilation.
2014-12-12T06:08:24Z Bike: i think it's transformed into an IR thing that's like a lambda, but not a common lisp lambda
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2014-12-12T06:10:03Z Bike: they're mostly lambda-like things it looks like, except for the compilation ones, i.e. locally, macrolet, symbol-macrolet, which i guess you could think of as lambdas also, barely
2014-12-12T06:10:52Z Quadrescence: Bike, is it a COINCIDENCE that LAMBDA and LEXICAL start with the same letter???
2014-12-12T06:10:55Z Quadrescence: i think not . . .
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2014-12-12T06:45:59Z shka: good morning fellow lispers
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2014-12-12T06:46:03Z shka: :-)
2014-12-12T06:46:24Z beach: Hello shka.
2014-12-12T06:46:56Z beach: shka: The plural form of "gentleman" is "gentlemen", in case you plan to use it again.
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2014-12-12T06:58:44Z H4ns: :D
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2014-12-12T07:03:10Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-12-12T09:17:09Z blahzik: any evil-mode people on here and willing to entertain a question?  i’ve tried the evil-mode group but there doesn’t seem to be any activity just now….
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2014-12-12T09:22:59Z dim: have you tried #emacs?
2014-12-12T09:23:41Z blahzik: yikes, you’re right; i’ll try there now; thanks
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2014-12-12T09:38:54Z splittist: soon we'll need #evillisp (:
2014-12-12T09:42:20Z dim: https://github.com/syl20bnr/evil-lisp-state/blob/master/evil-lisp-state.el ?
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2014-12-12T10:42:32Z zarac: woohoo i'm #420 ; )
2014-12-12T10:46:40Z zarac: what implementation is most common for newbies to start toying with?
2014-12-12T10:46:44Z zarac: which*
2014-12-12T10:47:03Z H4ns: zarac: use sbcl or ccl if you plan on interacting with this channel for help.
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2014-12-12T10:47:59Z zarac: H4ns: Thank you. SBCL was my candidate.. so think i'll go with that. ; )
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2014-12-12T10:48:52Z zarac: do people use ansi CL for practical purposes?
2014-12-12T10:49:16Z Shinmera: Depends on what you mean by "practical", but most likely yes.
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2014-12-12T10:50:01Z zarac: as in real applications.. my understanding is that it's "just" a reference implementation
2014-12-12T10:50:16Z Shinmera: Ansi CL is a standards document.
2014-12-12T10:50:17Z H4ns: zarac: your understanding is wrong.
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2014-12-12T10:50:23Z zarac: ; )
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2014-12-12T10:50:32Z Shinmera: SBCL is an implementation that conforms to that standard.
2014-12-12T10:50:38Z Shinmera: As is CCL and many others
2014-12-12T10:50:42Z H4ns: zarac: cl is a practical programming language which is used in various different commercial and non-commercial projects
2014-12-12T10:50:55Z H4ns: zarac: it is a niche languages and it is a bit dated, but a lot fun to use.
2014-12-12T10:51:41Z zarac: I think sbcl (or maybe ccl) will be what i start with... i'm looking for something popular so help is easier to find.
2014-12-12T10:51:51Z zarac: Yeah.. but it's so sexy.. ; )
2014-12-12T10:52:11Z Cymew: Of course, your platform will be pretty important when you decide on implementation
2014-12-12T10:52:55Z zarac: i'm on arch linux, it has a package for sbcl.. which sounds promising ;)
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2014-12-12T10:54:32Z Shinmera: You'll be fine with that.
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2014-12-12T10:56:39Z zarac: sweet!
2014-12-12T10:57:03Z zarac: now my only problem is the mere 74MB free disk-space..
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2014-12-12T11:02:07Z shka: zarac: welcome on the dark side of programming
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2014-12-12T11:02:23Z zarac: shka: thanks ; )
2014-12-12T11:02:46Z shka: take those parenthesis ()
2014-12-12T11:02:52Z shka: you will need it ;-)
2014-12-12T11:03:04Z hitecnologys: zarac: did you check that ebuilds provided by pacman are not several years old?
2014-12-12T11:03:29Z zarac: Meh.. i'm at LTH university.. they have an arch linux mirror (5 hops away from here).. but it seems like they've blocked me
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2014-12-12T11:03:39Z zarac: hitecnologys: ebuilds?
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2014-12-12T11:03:47Z Grue`: compile from source, it's the true way!
2014-12-12T11:03:47Z zarac: was ist das?
2014-12-12T11:04:11Z zarac: hehe, perhaps i will
2014-12-12T11:04:16Z Grue`: though with 74mb disk space you won't be able to use sbcl, i think
2014-12-12T11:04:25Z Grue`: much less compile it
2014-12-12T11:04:32Z hitecnologys: zarac: a set of instructions for package manager that tells it how to get the package and install it.
2014-12-12T11:04:33Z H4ns: in my world, a disk with 74mb is full
2014-12-12T11:04:49Z zarac: it's 68 MB.. i removed some stuff.. 3.2GB now
2014-12-12T11:05:10Z zarac: not comfortable with 6MB free :  )
2014-12-12T11:05:18Z Shinmera: clear your pacman cache
2014-12-12T11:05:21Z zarac: hitecnologys: ah
2014-12-12T11:06:31Z zarac: Shinmera: It won't let me do a sync, it times out.. so i doubt it'll help
2014-12-12T11:07:00Z Shinmera: I meant for your disc space
2014-12-12T11:07:09Z zarac: Shinmera: oh.. duh.. ; ) haha
2014-12-12T11:07:18Z zarac: i removed some .flac albums
2014-12-12T11:07:31Z hitecnologys: zarac: SBCL is regularly updated, so your packages might be a bit older than upstream. Somewhat around 1.2 (or even 1.1, if you're really lazy) is fine, but 1.0.55 is quite old. Make sure not to use that one.
2014-12-12T11:07:53Z zarac: it's at 1.2.2-1 now
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2014-12-12T11:08:18Z Grue`: arch is probably better at updating it than most distros
2014-12-12T11:08:29Z Shinmera: Since you're on arch you can also use sbcl-git from the AUR
2014-12-12T11:08:35Z hitecnologys: zarac: 1.2.4 is the newest, IIRC. You might want to update.
2014-12-12T11:08:39Z splittist: zarac: I know nothing of linux package managers and the problems they are supposed to solve. I would get an sbcl binary from the sbcl site; make sure I had a reasonably up-to-date emacs; get quicklisp; use quicklisp to install quicklisp's slime helper; type M-x slime; ... ; profit!
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2014-12-12T11:10:22Z splittist: zarac: your initial reaction to common lisp with be one or more of: "I can't believe I can do that with lisp!" and "I can't believe lisp can't do that!"
2014-12-12T11:10:30Z zarac: Oh yeah.. that editor thing.. i'm a Vim user.. is it highly recommended to use emacs for lisp?
2014-12-12T11:10:34Z zarac: or even slime
2014-12-12T11:10:40Z hitecnologys: splittist: package managers are supposed to help you manage and update software, of course. Why would anyone download, build and install something by himself when we can make computer do it? Besides, there's nothing wrong with building something from sources by hand.
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2014-12-12T11:10:45Z Shinmera: zarac: I would say yes
2014-12-12T11:10:47Z Grue`: zarac: kind of
2014-12-12T11:10:56Z zarac: lol : )
2014-12-12T11:10:57Z Shinmera: zarac: you can try evil-mode and similar to make it more vim-y though
2014-12-12T11:11:04Z hitecnologys: zarac: I'm Vim user. There's slimv but it's pain.
2014-12-12T11:11:04Z Grue`: I wrote my first lisp program in notepad though!
2014-12-12T11:11:06Z zarac: lol.. evil mode
2014-12-12T11:11:18Z zarac: notepad ftw ; 0
2014-12-12T11:11:50Z hitecnologys: zarac: also, keep in mind that evil mode does not implement Vim fully. For example, contents of registers are not saved between restarts.
2014-12-12T11:12:10Z zarac: ah.. good to know
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2014-12-12T11:13:18Z hitecnologys: zarac: and dd doesn't work with paredit. It's really annoying. Vim's version handles it by removing anything but parentheses, Emacs's version complains instead.
2014-12-12T11:13:26Z zarac: This crazy world.. LTH blocks me from using LTH as arch linux mirror (others work fine).
2014-12-12T11:13:35Z zarac: LTH is a university..
2014-12-12T11:13:57Z zarac: hitecnologys: what's paredit?
2014-12-12T11:13:59Z hitecnologys: zarac: but I have to admit that SLIME is hell lots better on Emacs.
2014-12-12T11:14:23Z zarac: I shall definitly try SLIME then. : )
2014-12-12T11:14:37Z hitecnologys: zarac: it's script that helps you to manipulate different sorts of brackets.
2014-12-12T11:14:46Z zarac: ah
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2014-12-12T11:17:20Z zarac: Any good references to recommend? (apart from cliki). This seems good.. (?) http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2014-12-12T11:17:36Z Shinmera: PCL is a good place to start
2014-12-12T11:17:41Z zarac: sweet
2014-12-12T11:17:44Z hitecnologys: PCL is indeed a good starting point.
2014-12-12T11:17:58Z zarac: : )
2014-12-12T11:18:12Z mrkkrp: there is a fun book called 'Land of Lisp' :)
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2014-12-12T11:20:08Z hitecnologys: You can move on to "On Lisp" after finishing PCL, if you start to feel comfortable with language. There's also "The Art of Metaobject Protocol" which explains details of CLOS implementation and "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" which covers generic problems.
2014-12-12T11:21:02Z hitecnologys: At least, that's how I started.
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2014-12-12T11:22:16Z zarac: hitecnologys: Thanks a bunch.. i'll make note.
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2014-12-12T11:22:34Z zarac: also thanks mrkkrp
2014-12-12T11:22:37Z zarac: : )
2014-12-12T11:22:41Z hitecnologys: zarac: you can find a complete list of literature on Cliki.
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2014-12-12T11:29:36Z splittist: zarac: there's also the clhs (common lisp hyperspec), which is the webified version of the specification. Yes, Common Lisp actually has a specification! It's not a tutorial (and there are a handful of famous errors), but it is pretty great for helping you understand as much as you want to.
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2014-12-12T11:30:51Z zarac: mrkkrp: Awesome website : )
2014-12-12T11:30:55Z splittist: zarac: once you've got a bit of a start with lisp, you'll often find that that neat little function you wrote is actually already provided by the language, but with a bunch more interesting options.
2014-12-12T11:31:10Z mrkkrp: zarac: :)
2014-12-12T11:31:31Z splittist: zarac: or you'll become frustrated that lisp doesn't work like the things you know and give up (:
2014-12-12T11:31:50Z zarac: i'm a master of patience ; )
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2014-12-12T12:39:06Z mrkkrp: I have a hash table 'character -> number'. Now I need to remove all its items except for N entries that have the greatest values. What's the most efficient way to do it without external libs, because the code is for a lib and I don't want it to have additional dependencies..
2014-12-12T12:40:21Z Shinmera: Quicklisp exists though, so depend on whatever.
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2014-12-12T12:47:32Z josteink: any language theorists here?
2014-12-12T12:47:46Z josteink: in FP terms, what would you call a operation with the following signature?
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2014-12-12T12:47:47Z josteink: List a -> (a-> List a) -> List a
2014-12-12T12:48:24Z H4ns: josteink: this channel is about common lisp.
2014-12-12T12:48:44Z josteink: basically take a list, a transformation which acts on each item in the list and returning a new list, and combine that into a new list
2014-12-12T12:48:59Z josteink: H4ns: I know. lisp can be employed in a  functional manner though ;)
2014-12-12T12:49:37Z mrkkrp: josteink: it's concat-map :)
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2014-12-12T12:52:38Z josteink: mrkkrp: thats not too shabby. I like that. my current take was "Collate"
2014-12-12T12:52:44Z mrkkrp: josteink: although there are many ways to 'combine' lists
2014-12-12T12:53:05Z mrkkrp: josteink: are you from haskell world?
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2014-12-12T12:54:25Z josteink: mrkkrp: nope. just asked there too
2014-12-12T12:54:29Z josteink: Im from C# world :)
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2014-12-12T12:55:12Z josteink: they agreed on your concatmap (or (>>=) as it is in haskell)
2014-12-12T12:55:19Z josteink: or flatmap
2014-12-12T12:56:31Z mrkkrp: well, >>= may mean many things, it depends on monad you're currently in
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2014-12-12T12:58:43Z josteink: that was their point. list is a monda
2014-12-12T12:58:45Z josteink: monad
2014-12-12T12:58:56Z josteink: excange "List" for any generic Monad and the signature still holds
2014-12-12T13:00:45Z mrkkrp: josteink: yes, there is certain beauty in their monads, but after some exploring of haskell, I decided that Lisp is still way more powerful)
2014-12-12T13:01:12Z josteink: there are things I like about haskell
2014-12-12T13:01:17Z josteink: there are things I like about Lisp
2014-12-12T13:01:27Z josteink: there are things I like about C# even
2014-12-12T13:01:33Z josteink: Im not going to be an absolutist
2014-12-12T13:02:16Z mrkkrp: I don't like when you get into deep monad stack and you need to lift lots of stuff.
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2014-12-12T13:03:14Z josteink: abstractions are nice as long as they work
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2014-12-12T13:03:30Z mrkkrp: About your case: to combine two lists into one they need zipWith, if you have three lists, you need zipWith3, etc.. up to zipWith8! or more, I don't remember now
2014-12-12T13:03:31Z josteink: its when they stop working and you have to consider all your logic and all the abstractions at once, things get messy
2014-12-12T13:03:39Z zarac: mrkkrp: still more likable than a fuck shit stack.. i hope : )
2014-12-12T13:04:29Z mrkkrp: in list you can map things and combine lists with one function 'mapcar'
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2014-12-12T13:04:44Z mrkkrp: it's not as important as macros though
2014-12-12T13:04:54Z zarac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkKOeeYko7w (fuck shit stack=
2014-12-12T13:05:37Z mrkkrp: *in lisp
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2014-12-12T13:11:30Z ggole: I'm a bit surprised that ML-family languages never seem to have variadic functions.
2014-12-12T13:12:19Z Grue`: josteink: re "List a -> (a-> List a) -> List a" in Common Lisp this operation is called mapcan
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2014-12-12T13:13:26Z dim: mmm, I still can't read those ml style function prototypes
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2014-12-12T13:21:29Z Grue`: mrkkrp: re top N entries: check out top-array code in http://readevalprint.tumblr.com/post/99568614213/
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2014-12-12T13:23:52Z josteink: Grue`: thanks for the help, but you missed a bit of context
2014-12-12T13:24:02Z josteink: I was trying to solve this problem in C# and needed a good function-name :)
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2014-12-12T13:24:43Z josteink: Chath from #haskell solved it for me. It's already implemented in the base class library as "SelectMany" :)
2014-12-12T13:24:59Z Grue`: well, I'll be first to admit mapcan is a shitty name, but it has precedent at least :)
2014-12-12T13:25:34Z josteink: I think SelectMany  is a pretty shit name too, but in C# seemingly it has precedent :)
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2014-12-12T13:46:06Z zarac: Thanks again for the help dudes and dudettes. Cya in the future! :)
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2014-12-12T14:36:36Z yenda: do you do tdd in lisp ?
2014-12-12T14:37:25Z josteink: yenda: sure. why not?
2014-12-12T14:37:33Z josteink: you can argue the repl is a TDD in itself...
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2014-12-12T14:38:23Z josteink: I do more elisp than lisp, but I still find TDD useful ;)
2014-12-12T14:41:54Z Grue`: usually you don't test in the repl stuff that clearly shouldn't be working yet, so it's not test *driven*
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2014-12-12T14:42:45Z H4ns: test driven development is a specific discipline.  it can be had with lisp, but i'd not say it is very common.
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2014-12-12T14:43:20Z H4ns: most lisp programmers tend towards exploratory programming, which is much less disciplined
2014-12-12T14:44:02Z gingerale: Well it's more fun that way, is it not?
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2014-12-12T15:14:57Z ivan4th: some code is well-suited for TDD, in other cases TDD is not so convenient. For some cases I use a kind of hybrid approach: write code using 'exploratory' style, than make a kind regression testing suite for it
2014-12-12T15:15:29Z ivan4th: e.g. when you have some file format converter, like html or odt -> some custom xml
2014-12-12T15:18:38Z ivan4th: I often use the following approach: 1. generate output from sample inputs 2. save this output and use it to test your code later 3. make some changes to the program 4. generate diff of its output for your sample input 5. if it looks ok, accept new output as the new 'golden copy' (if it doesn't, fix the program) 6. goto 3
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2014-12-12T15:19:59Z ivan4th: Even wrote a CL test framework (I know, there's too many test frameworks for CL already, but...) that supports this testing style and some other common 'log-based' testing styles I use https://github.com/ivan4th/vtf (currently writing docs for it)
2014-12-12T15:20:42Z ivan4th: Asked about this technique on stackoverflow.com several years ago, but seemingly no one knows exactly how it should be called http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3779747/is-there-a-name-for-the-testing-technique-i-use
2014-12-12T15:22:17Z ivan4th: helps a lot with some tasks... I even use it as testing aid for embedded control system software, where diffing event logs turned out to be very useful testing technique
2014-12-12T15:22:41Z Shinmera: My usual approach is not to write any tests at all and then just live in fear and terror, dreadfully awaiting the day someone finds a bug.
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2014-12-12T15:23:35Z ivan4th: Shinmera: that was my past approach. But as the code base grows, the fear and terror have chances to turn into depression
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2014-12-12T15:23:53Z stassats: Shinmera: just write correct code from the get go
2014-12-12T15:24:15Z Shinmera: stassats: I try to do that, but I lack self-confidence.
2014-12-12T15:25:30Z Grue`: declare the correct output be what your code outputs; then, by definition the code is correct
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2014-12-12T15:27:02Z ivan4th: I had a manager at some past job that knew the answer to this problem, he just said "don't make bugs, it's our requirement"
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2014-12-12T15:28:57Z ivan4th: but perhaps one should use Haskell not CL to write initially-correct code
2014-12-12T15:29:24Z stassats: haskell only gives an illusion
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2014-12-12T15:30:03Z ivan4th: it probably also gives some self-confidence
2014-12-12T15:30:17Z ggole: Types give you some things, but correctness isn't one of them.
2014-12-12T15:30:39Z akkad tries to find one hello world example that can build/ be delivered on lispworks
2014-12-12T15:31:25Z ivan4th: anyway, writing 100% bugless code would be boring
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2014-12-12T15:31:34Z rick-monster: our perl system at work has a test-suite takes 3 hours to run, yet new bugs surface every week!
2014-12-12T15:31:41Z stassats: what about negative amount of bugs?
2014-12-12T15:32:21Z ivan4th: easy, just let's count every feature as -1 bug
2014-12-12T15:32:30Z rick-monster: pretty sure if they'd concentrated more on code quality and less on the kafkaesque maze of unit tests we'd all be better off...
2014-12-12T15:32:34Z Xach: akkad: I don't have one, but it's pretty straightforward. I found the manual helpful in that regard. And I bet you could get one quickly if you appeal to the lisp-hug list for help.
2014-12-12T15:32:40Z rick-monster: (or written it in lisp, obviously)
2014-12-12T15:33:18Z Grue`: negative bugs are perceived bugs that are actually correct behavior: fixing one increases the bug count
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2014-12-12T15:34:49Z ivan4th: as of VTF framework mentioned above, you just copy-and-paste some code you use to test your program in REPL, wrap it in (deftest ... (<< (generate-some-output))) , than use (vtf:run-tests) to see diffs and (abt-accept) to accept the changes
2014-12-12T15:34:51Z stassats: that's when you run your program and bugs in other programs disappear
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2014-12-12T15:36:31Z ggole: There used to be a bug in GHC that would delete your source if there were a type error.
2014-12-12T15:36:45Z stassats: sounds like a feature
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2014-12-12T15:39:58Z ivan4th: ... not always the best way to test your code (we used similar technique to test python web app backend on my previous job and some of our devs 'accepted' quite incorrectly looking output changes), but sometimes it indeed saves a lot of effort
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2014-12-12T15:42:56Z ivan4th: surely better than not having any tests at all, although some extra care is needed to make sure that output is constant for the same input (time, random numbers, iterating over hash tables, etc.)
2014-12-12T15:45:10Z akkad: does lispworks havew anything like who-calls?
2014-12-12T15:45:18Z akkad: yup
2014-12-12T15:46:09Z rick-monster: xach/shinmera - I'm now up and running with a private quicklisp dist hosted on a cute little 'odroid' arm chip thanks for the help/advice yesterday
2014-12-12T15:46:36Z Shinmera: rick-monster: Nice! :)
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2014-12-12T15:47:23Z rick-monster: the best thing is the software compiled perfectly and ran (nearly) first time on ARM/CCL when all dev work had been on sbcl!
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2014-12-12T15:52:27Z ivan4th: from my experience CCL on ARM is fairly stable
2014-12-12T15:52:51Z ivan4th: using it in production setting since 2012
2014-12-12T15:54:04Z ivan4th: (the board is 'industrial' BeagleBoard clone, Blueshark)
2014-12-12T15:54:16Z rick-monster: yeah I'm blown away by it.  Performance is really good on the odroid and acceptable on my beaglebone
2014-12-12T15:55:06Z stassats: sbcl should be stable  too, for things that do work
2014-12-12T15:55:10Z ivan4th: going to try sbcl on ARM too, soon
2014-12-12T15:55:28Z rick-monster: hmm when I tried it a couple of months ago I couldn't get threads
2014-12-12T15:55:38Z Shinmera: rick-monster: Were you able to make use of any of the things I've written for Shirakumo/dist ?
2014-12-12T15:55:55Z stassats: it's hard to get something that isn't implemented
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2014-12-12T15:56:39Z ivan4th: btw, IIRC sbcl still doesn't support callbacks from foreign threads on platforms other than win32? (this breaks QML in CommonQt)
2014-12-12T15:56:52Z stassats: no, it does support
2014-12-12T15:57:02Z ivan4th: even on ARM?
2014-12-12T15:57:41Z stassats: arm doesn't have threads
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2014-12-12T16:02:46Z rick-monster: shinmera - just used quickdist to consolidate a handful of project repos and quicklisp software into a single repo hosted on the odroid
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2014-12-12T16:03:26Z Shinmera: alright
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2014-12-12T16:05:31Z rick-monster: the requirement from bosses here was to make a system which doesn't *need* to go to wider internet to install our developer tools or run the test-suite
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2014-12-12T16:06:27Z Shinmera: Btw you'll be fine with quickdist as long as you don't plan to release more than once a day. If you do, have a look at Shirakumo/dist/dist.lisp, I had to fix the way it timestamps archives.
2014-12-12T16:07:16Z rick-monster: ah - I see well you can actually tag manually with quickdist as well
2014-12-12T16:08:13Z Shinmera: You mean the :version argument to the quickdist function?
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2014-12-12T16:08:52Z rick-monster: yeah - I'm using something like :version "0.1" at the moment
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2014-12-12T16:09:04Z Shinmera: It doesn't apply to the way it names archives though
2014-12-12T16:09:06Z rick-monster: but day-tagged version numbers probably the better idea
2014-12-12T16:09:08Z Shinmera: Hence why I had to hack it in
2014-12-12T16:09:10Z rick-monster: ok ah I see
2014-12-12T16:09:20Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/dist/blob/master/dist.lisp#L30
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2014-12-12T16:09:58Z Shinmera: I should prolly report that, but I'm busy right now
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2014-12-12T16:12:58Z rick-monster: hmm the thing I still don't understand about quicklisp - should it be possible to install 2 quicklisp dists in the same quicklisp directory?
2014-12-12T16:13:34Z Shinmera: You need to differentiate Quicklisp the client and "quicklisp" the dist.
2014-12-12T16:13:45Z Shinmera: The client can have as many different dists installed at the same time as you want
2014-12-12T16:14:14Z Shinmera: It'll fetch packages from wherever it can, abiding by a preference number that you can set.
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2014-12-12T16:14:50Z Shinmera: So yes, you can have the quicklisp dist and whatever other dists you want installed.
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2014-12-12T16:15:38Z rick-monster: right, thought that must be the case!
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2014-12-12T16:15:51Z rick-monster: I'll dig around and figure out how...
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2014-12-12T16:18:39Z Shinmera: Just (ql-dist:install-dist <url>)
2014-12-12T16:19:14Z rick-monster: ah cheers...
2014-12-12T16:19:35Z Shinmera: It's mentioned in the quickdist readme.
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2014-12-12T16:26:42Z rick-monster: ah interesting bug - hunchentoot doesn't seem to like filenames with a +
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2014-12-12T16:27:26Z drewc: I have used CCL on Raspberry PIs, Beaglebone blacks, and many other ARM based android tablets for the last 2 years or so and it works great, FWIW.
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2014-12-12T16:31:17Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-12-12T16:31:50Z oleo__: evening beach
2014-12-12T16:31:54Z oleo__ is now known as oleo
2014-12-12T16:31:56Z splittist: evening beach
2014-12-12T16:31:56Z ivan4th: drewc: We had two Raspberry PIs with seventy-five DIY cases, five high-powered Odroids, a Beaglebone half-preloaded with recent Ubuntu and a whole galaxy of multi-colored Chinese HDMI sticks. And also a quart of Tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser. Not that we needed all that to test CCL on ARM, but once you get locked into using CL with embedded Linux, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.
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2014-12-12T16:32:56Z splittist: ivan4th: you were just outside of Barstow when the drugs took hold? Suddenly the sky was filled with swarming parentheses?
2014-12-12T16:34:46Z drewc: beach: bon matin ! (oui, je suis canadien ... "In Québec, bon matin can be used as an informal greeting between, for example, close friends and long-time co-workers" ... alors bonjour :))
2014-12-12T16:35:05Z beach: drewc: Nice!
2014-12-12T16:35:56Z beach: drewc: I was there for ILC, so I learned some language.  Like the origin of "Poutine."
2014-12-12T16:36:09Z splittist realises ivan4th's memory is far better than his. “We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold.” Now back to lisp...
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2014-12-12T16:36:48Z ivan4th: splittist: well, it was Google's memory to tell the truth...
2014-12-12T16:38:29Z drewc: ivan4th: I have heard a bunch of good things about Odroids so 2015 will be my year for those... ahh digital electronic computers ... who would have thought that I would enjoy programming them so much that I want to keep using them!
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2014-12-12T16:39:44Z drewc: beach: My favourite is using "Putin" and "Poutine" in the same joke/sentence etc :)
2014-12-12T16:40:09Z beach: I can see that, sure.
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2014-12-12T16:41:01Z drmeister: I think I'm finished incorporating (declare (core:lambda-name XXX)) everywhere it needs to be and in providing compiler support for it in clasp's compiler.
2014-12-12T16:41:02Z beach: drewc: The French word "poutine" comes from the English word "pudding" which comes from the French word "boudin".
2014-12-12T16:41:06Z drewc: "in" VS "ine" can be very funny, accent wise ...
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2014-12-12T16:41:14Z ivan4th has to use less powerful ARM boards for his CL code because they need to withstand low temperatures, radiation and other stupid things like that
2014-12-12T16:41:27Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations.
2014-12-12T16:41:53Z drmeister: My code now should be fully Common Lisp compliant and have decent debug-ability and backtraces.
2014-12-12T16:42:23Z drewc: beach: I knew it came from puddin' , but did not know that "boudin" was the origin .... interesting!
2014-12-12T16:43:43Z beach: drmeister: Half my morning and my entire afternoon was wasted on boring admin struff.  I did manage to get the AST->HIR test suite running again after the latest modification.  Also, since last time I attempted to run the tests, I had improved the compilation of LET and LET*, which broke some of the tests when type declarations were present.  I fixed that too.
2014-12-12T16:43:51Z drewc: drmeister: yay! Good job.
2014-12-12T16:44:25Z beach: drmeister: What I am trying to say is that I didn't do as much as I had hoped today.
2014-12-12T16:44:31Z stassats: drmeister: but core:lambda-name is not a standard declration
2014-12-12T16:45:07Z beach: stassats: The standard allows for extensions, as long as they are proclaimed in a DECLARATION declaration.
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2014-12-12T16:46:10Z beach: Of course, now I have to hurry up and figure out how to allow for implementations to customize cleavir so that such declarations can be handled.
2014-12-12T16:46:19Z stassats: the standard also allows for new special operators being defined
2014-12-12T16:46:45Z beach: Right.  As long as a macro is also provided ...
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2014-12-12T16:48:59Z ivan4th: I wonder how hard it would be to get SICL run on top of jscl to get full CL implementation running in the brpowser. Not sure whether this has enough practical value to actually try it though...
2014-12-12T16:49:18Z ivan4th: *browser
2014-12-12T16:49:40Z beach: ivan4th: It would take some time, given that SICL doesn't run on top of *anything* right now.
2014-12-12T16:50:52Z ivan4th: as far as I understand, in case of clasp some pieces from ECL are used and missing pieces of CL are taken from SICL? Or is this too simplistic view of things?
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2014-12-12T16:51:00Z beach: As I recall, though, the previous extension in ECL/Clasp was not a special operator.   Maybe I am misremembering.
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2014-12-12T16:51:52Z ivan4th: (although ECL is much more complete CL implementation than jscl by itself)
2014-12-12T16:52:07Z p_l: ivan4th: if you asked mozilla, they'd say yes
2014-12-12T16:52:26Z drmeister: The standard does not allow for the FUNCTION special operator to be modified - that's what needs to be done to support NAMED-LAMBDA (SBCL) and LAMBDA-BLOCK (ECL)
2014-12-12T16:52:39Z p_l: personally, i think it's a wsy to look up how bad one can misuse resources
2014-12-12T16:53:10Z stassats: drmeister: you don't have to modify it, though
2014-12-12T16:53:30Z drmeister: ivan4th: All of ECLs Common Lisp source code other than the compiler is used by Clasp.
2014-12-12T16:53:42Z ivan4th: p_l: something tells me that this cannot be as bad as llvm->js translation which is popular nowadays
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2014-12-12T16:54:29Z drmeister: stassats: The FUNCTION special operator of ecl and sbcl have both been modified to support the lambda-block and named-lambda expressions.  That breaks code-walkers.
2014-12-12T16:54:33Z p_l: ivan4th: mozilla proposes x86->asm.js
2014-12-12T16:54:43Z stassats: drmeister: lambda is not a special operator, FUNCTION is, i'm not telling you to modify FUNCTION, but to add a new special operator, NAMED-LAMBDA
2014-12-12T16:54:51Z ivan4th: drmeister: and as of now, how much of http://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ does Clasp pass?
2014-12-12T16:54:58Z stassats: for, like, the twentieth time
2014-12-12T16:55:18Z p_l: ivan4th: and you still execute within page context, afaik
2014-12-12T16:55:47Z stassats: i don't care the way you achieve your goal, but i want you to understand what i was telling
2014-12-12T16:56:06Z drmeister: stassats: Right, I didn't say lambda was a special operator.  I said that in ECL FUNCTION was modified to support lambda-block expressions.  The ECL source code is littered with #'(lambda-block name (...) ...)   that breaks code walkers.
2014-12-12T16:56:14Z stassats: you are not ecl
2014-12-12T16:56:35Z ivan4th: p_l: anyway, libc / libstdc++ compiled this way will take quite a bit of time to load, too
2014-12-12T16:57:29Z p_l: ivan4th: yiu and i think like this. mozilla employee i talked with didn't ;)
2014-12-12T16:57:29Z drmeister: stassats: I'd like to understand it as well. I realize I'm not ECL.  But when I have code that reads #'(lambda-block name (...) ...) How do I get it to work with Cleavir and other code-walkers?
2014-12-12T16:57:32Z beach: stassats: I have only skimmed the conversation before.  How would the special operator NAMED-LAMBDA work?
2014-12-12T16:57:45Z drmeister: NAMED-LAMBDA isn't a special operator.
2014-12-12T16:58:00Z stassats: beach: attach a name to the function it produces
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2014-12-12T16:58:20Z stassats: beach: same way as (function (lambda)), but with a name
2014-12-12T16:58:34Z beach: stassats: But without the FUNCTION?
2014-12-12T16:58:45Z stassats: it's a special operator, not a macros
2014-12-12T16:59:11Z beach: Yeah, that would work.  You would provide a macro that expands it to (function (lambda ...)) and remove the name.
2014-12-12T16:59:26Z ivan4th: p_l: perhaps he/she never tried to load a site via EDGE connection
2014-12-12T16:59:48Z drmeister: ECL does the same thing.  There is a macro called EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK  but that is different from (FUNCTION (EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK ...))
2014-12-12T16:59:56Z stassats: beach: no, the macroexpansion would be (flet ((name (lambda ()))) #'name)
2014-12-12T17:00:09Z brucem: ivan4th: loading libc in emscripten isn't slow at all. libcxx is a bit worse depending on what parts you use, but not totally terrible.
2014-12-12T17:00:32Z drmeister: Because FUNCTION doesn't expand its argument as a macro.
2014-12-12T17:01:02Z stassats: can you forget about FUNCTION already?
2014-12-12T17:01:05Z beach: stassats: OK, I see.
2014-12-12T17:01:40Z beach: drmeister: He is not suggesting extending the lambda expression that can be used in FUNCTION.
2014-12-12T17:02:11Z stassats: FUNCTION is not touched, a new special operator is introduced with portable macroexpansion
2014-12-12T17:02:13Z beach: drmeister: He is suggesting introducing a new special operator that would do the job of both FUNCTION and LAMBDA.
2014-12-12T17:03:13Z drewc has actually stopped using LAMBDA inside FUNCTION, so would not use NAMED-LAMBDA there either... irrelevant perhaps, but had to chime in.
2014-12-12T17:03:38Z stassats: can't really use LAMBDA outside of FUNCTION
2014-12-12T17:03:52Z stassats: maybe only as a list
2014-12-12T17:04:14Z beach: And in ((lambda (...) ...) ...)
2014-12-12T17:05:30Z drewc: and DEFINE-CONDITION
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2014-12-12T17:08:08Z Grue`: how would introducing a new special operator help with portable code walking?
2014-12-12T17:08:36Z beach: Grue`: The standard says you provide a macro that expands to portable code.
2014-12-12T17:09:35Z Grue`: so then we're back to square one, since named-lambda has to be used once again
2014-12-12T17:10:03Z drewc: and the fact that a lambda expression , which technically is a list, but can be executed because of the lambda macro ..
2014-12-12T17:10:52Z beach: Grue`: What do you mean, "back to square one"?
2014-12-12T17:11:26Z Grue`: having defun macro expand into something walkable by code walker
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2014-12-12T17:11:44Z mrkkrp: I have this: (incf (gethash x y)) and (= (gethash x y) z) and I know that gethash returns fixnum for sure, so I want compiler to do some optimization, is there a way to declare that gethash returns fixnum?
2014-12-12T17:12:18Z stassats: hashing will dominate this thing, are you sure that's the slowest part?
2014-12-12T17:12:33Z drmeister: beach - stassats:  I understand what you are proposing, a new special operator that generates named function objects like FUNCTION-LAMBDA-BLOCK.   I haven't pursued that avenue because the macro that I would have to provide to allow code-walkers to work with it would reduce FUNCTION-LAMBDA-BLOCK to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ... )) which would loose the function
2014-12-12T17:12:33Z drmeister: name.
2014-12-12T17:13:00Z beach: Grue`: Again, the standard allows for an implementation to create new special operators.  But then a macro with that same name must also be supplied that expands the new operator to portable code.  A code walker would expand the macro.  End of story.  What is the problem?
2014-12-12T17:13:29Z drmeister: Since the whole point of this is to integrate Cleavir this solution would not give me what I want, namely, named functions for debugging and backtraces with Cleavir.
2014-12-12T17:14:03Z mrkkrp: stassats: it's rather theoretical question, sbcl prints a note, so I thought there must be a way to satisy it..
2014-12-12T17:14:03Z stassats: i guess i do have to repeat myself
2014-12-12T17:14:14Z drmeister: I should have been more explicit about why I wasn't entertaining that solution.
2014-12-12T17:14:16Z stassats: drmeister: it doesn't expand into function lambda
2014-12-12T17:14:58Z drmeister: How would a code-walker deal with this new special operator?   I thought the standard way was to provide a macro that converts the new special operator into standard special operators.
2014-12-12T17:14:59Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir definitely allows for implementations to extend the set of special operators.  It won't just do what code walkers do.  It allows you to create new ASTs new instructions, and methods on existing generic functions to manipulate those.
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2014-12-12T17:15:33Z stassats: "beach: no, the macroexpansion would be (flet ((name (lambda ()))) #'name)"
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2014-12-12T17:16:31Z drmeister notices a flickering bulb finally go on over his head.
2014-12-12T17:16:46Z Xach: share it with grue
2014-12-12T17:16:47Z drmeister: Oh - I see (flet ((name (lambda ()))) #'name)
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2014-12-12T17:18:00Z drmeister: Sorry stassats - I was hung up on the new FUNCTION-LAMBDA-BLOCK special operator and implementing it as (FUNCTION (LAMBDA))
2014-12-12T17:18:20Z drmeister: I see now - FLET can produce named function objects - argh.
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2014-12-12T17:19:58Z drmeister: I guess I'll be rewriting some code. (sigh)   Because your solution is inherently better than mine.  Using FLET, beach won't have to support adding new declarations right away.
2014-12-12T17:20:28Z drmeister: I'll have to sleep on this.
2014-12-12T17:21:13Z drmeister: Well, that's why I hang out here.  Occasionally someone can beat some sense into me.
2014-12-12T17:21:15Z stassats: beach doesn't have to support your declarations
2014-12-12T17:21:25Z drmeister: Agreed.
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2014-12-12T17:22:18Z drmeister: Oh well, no big loss.  I know where all the bodies are buried to make the necessary changes, and the code is tidier.
2014-12-12T17:22:55Z beach: drmeister: I will have to support new declarations eventually anyway.
2014-12-12T17:22:55Z drmeister: stassats: Thanks for being persistent and not just throwing your hands up.
2014-12-12T17:23:28Z beach: drmeister: Not only tolerate them, but let the implementer customize the environment code so that they are handled according to what the implementation wants done.
2014-12-12T17:23:59Z stassats: but naming global functions with FLET is not the greatest idea
2014-12-12T17:24:36Z beach: drmeister: I would say you keep your current solution for now.
2014-12-12T17:25:35Z stassats: sbcl does (flet ((name ())) #'name) => #<FUNCTION (FLET NAME) {100F26420B}> and ccl #<Compiled-function NAME (Non-Global)  #x3020009FD2BF>
2014-12-12T17:26:41Z drmeister: beach, stassats: Noted.  I won't do anything rash.
2014-12-12T17:27:22Z stassats: but when you do (setf (fdefinition 'name) *), it becomes #<Compiled-function NAME #x302000A2E5FF>
2014-12-12T17:27:54Z drmeister: I see - I can pretty much do whatever I want in that macro.
2014-12-12T17:27:55Z stassats: but knowing where the function comes from is a good idea, FLET, LABELS, what have you
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2014-12-12T17:28:27Z stassats: sbcl also names macro functions specially: (macro-function 'defmacro) => #<FUNCTION (MACRO-FUNCTION DEFMACRO) {100044EC0B}>
2014-12-12T17:28:32Z drmeister: As in create an anonymous function and then set its name.  Duh - I've been so think.
2014-12-12T17:28:34Z drmeister: thick
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2014-12-12T17:29:23Z stassats: setting the name afterwards maybe not a good idea, you may want to optimize self calls
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2014-12-12T17:29:57Z drmeister: Ok, so the solution I have is not looking so bad then.
2014-12-12T17:30:12Z beach: Looks good to me.
2014-12-12T17:30:21Z stassats: it is a solution, i just wanted to make sure you got the other solution
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2014-12-12T17:31:12Z drmeister: I get it now.  I am considerably more enlightened about implementing Common Lisp than I was 15 minutes ago.
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2014-12-12T17:32:07Z stassats: (defun name () (name)) doesn't have to go through the global definition of NAME, it can just call the relative address
2014-12-12T17:32:17Z stassats: and if you set the name at runtime, the compiler can't know that
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2014-12-12T17:55:37Z mrkkrp: is there a way to use something like readline in a program compiled with sbcl?
2014-12-12T17:56:57Z stassats: rlwrap
2014-12-12T17:57:32Z stassats: mrkkrp: and about your theoretical question
2014-12-12T17:57:33Z stassats: clhs the
2014-12-12T17:57:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
2014-12-12T17:57:45Z stassats: but it's less useful with INCF
2014-12-12T17:58:05Z stassats: you need both the result and the argument to be declared for maximum benefit
2014-12-12T17:58:15Z stassats: and declaring things FIXNUM is usually a bad idea in itself
2014-12-12T17:58:44Z mrkkrp: because they can overflow?
2014-12-12T17:59:49Z stassats: because fixnum is arbitrary
2014-12-12T18:00:00Z stassats: it has no relation to your algorithm
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2014-12-12T18:01:28Z mrkkrp: stassats: what to use istead? I want to write code that can efficiently work with not-so-big numbers
2014-12-12T18:01:48Z stassats: what is the cut off of not so big?
2014-12-12T18:02:36Z stassats: (declare (type (integer not-so-small not-so-big) x))
2014-12-12T18:03:18Z mrkkrp: integer 32 or 64 bit
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2014-12-12T18:03:37Z stassats: (signed-byte 32)
2014-12-12T18:03:47Z ivan4th: you can't have 64 bit fixnum btw
2014-12-12T18:03:59Z stassats: fixnum will be more efficient indeedly than (signed-byte 64)
2014-12-12T18:04:10Z stassats: but if you don't know your limits, don't declare types
2014-12-12T18:04:16Z stassats: it's not like C
2014-12-12T18:05:41Z mrkkrp: what do you mean "fixnum is arbitrary"? in what sense?
2014-12-12T18:06:27Z stassats: it changes
2014-12-12T18:06:28Z ivan4th: depending on CL implementation and your arch you have different values of most-positive-fixnum and most-negative-fixnum
2014-12-12T18:07:39Z ivan4th: different implementations use different number of tag bits and so on
2014-12-12T18:08:18Z stassats: any declarations not corresponding to reality are dangerous
2014-12-12T18:08:35Z stassats: SBCL does performs type checking, not blindly trusts them, but that's bcl
2014-12-12T18:09:27Z mrkkrp: ok, I will go with (signed-byte 32) then
2014-12-12T18:09:59Z stassats: so, you don't know the actual values?
2014-12-12T18:11:24Z mrkkrp: it's index of array of characters, so it should depend on machine/OS, if you have 32 bit OS, it should be (signed-byte 32) and (signed-byte 64) for 64 bit system..
2014-12-12T18:12:07Z stassats: ok, that's easy: alexandria:array-index
2014-12-12T18:12:50Z mrkkrp: ok, thanks
2014-12-12T18:13:03Z stassats: take a look at how it's implemented
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2014-12-12T18:14:48Z mrkkrp: I saw the code before, but I didn't know that that was what I needed :)
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2014-12-12T18:15:08Z stassats: now, that's guaranteed to always work
2014-12-12T18:15:20Z stassats: and be as efficient as possible
2014-12-12T18:16:08Z mrkkrp: about rlwrap - it's separate program... I would like to use something like library, so I can supply function that would generate custom completions, etc.
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2014-12-12T18:16:54Z stassats: minion: linedit
2014-12-12T18:16:54Z minion: linedit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/linedit
2014-12-12T18:18:49Z mrkkrp: stassats: cool, that's it! thank you!
2014-12-12T18:19:52Z stassats: someone: write me a library which does not use readline, but just termios or something
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2014-12-12T18:25:15Z mrkkrp: one more question: I've seen a library that wraps all its code with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-loplevel :execute) ...), is it useful for something?
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2014-12-12T18:25:51Z stassats: the addition of the :compile-toplevel option means that you can later use that definition during compilation
2014-12-12T18:26:23Z H4ns: so you need it for macro helper functions
2014-12-12T18:26:27Z stassats: i.e., a function used by the macro and defined in the same file is not runnable without it if the macro is expanded in the same file
2014-12-12T18:27:13Z stassats: (eval-when (:load-loplevel :execute)) is the default, so is redundant
2014-12-12T18:27:36Z stassats: other combinations are also possible, but rarely used
2014-12-12T18:28:19Z stassats: for example, you can define a macro only during compilation, but the value is dubious
2014-12-12T18:29:13Z H4ns: artifacts from the olden days when every byte was precious and you'd want to avoid putting functions in your image that were needed only at compile time, for example.
2014-12-12T18:29:27Z mrkkrp: so unless I'm using a helper function in a macro defined in the same file, I don't need this stuff at all
2014-12-12T18:29:27Z Grue`: wrapping *all* of the code is probably superfulous
2014-12-12T18:29:39Z H4ns: mrkkrp: correct
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2014-12-12T18:29:57Z stassats: mrkkrp: rather, a helper function and the macro expansion in the same file
2014-12-12T18:30:07Z stassats: it's not needed until you use it
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2014-12-12T18:31:45Z mrkkrp: thanks guys, this (#lisp) is a cool place indeed :)
2014-12-12T18:32:17Z stassats: H4ns: but then it's a rather ineffective way, a proper tree shaker would be better
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2014-12-12T18:32:37Z stassats: and SBCL does use the eval-when trick internally, which i do hate when interactively changing things
2014-12-12T18:33:05Z Grue`: heh, I just found "(eval-when (:load-toplevel)" in my code, I don't even know why
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2014-12-12T18:33:21Z stassats: sbcl also has things starting with !, which are removed when building the final core file
2014-12-12T18:33:52Z stassats: Grue`: will only work when (load ".fasl"), but not (load ".lisp")
2014-12-12T18:34:20Z stassats: if you always compile, it doesn't matter, but making it robust is cheap, cheaper actually, no eval-when needed
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2014-12-12T18:43:24Z Grue`: yeah I guess it was some bullshit "safety" thing to ensure the entire file is reloaded before the stuff inside is redefined
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2014-12-12T19:33:13Z pjb: What program would be a good example of the use of cl-ncurses?
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2014-12-12T19:42:11Z akkad: lisp binaries dislike being stripped
2014-12-12T19:42:38Z Quadrescence: pjb, cl-ncurses has been superseded
2014-12-12T19:43:24Z pjb: cl-charms?
2014-12-12T19:43:48Z Quadrescence: pjb, I recommend https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms ; the high level interface isn't done yet, but it's still usable. There are some simple examples here: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms/tree/master/examples
2014-12-12T19:43:51Z pjb: Thanks.
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2014-12-12T19:45:18Z DeadTrickster: anyone tried de.setf.amqp? i can't even load it
2014-12-12T19:46:19Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: it is not in quicklisp because it is hard to use
2014-12-12T19:46:25Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: did you follow the readme?
2014-12-12T19:46:37Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: did you notice the license?
2014-12-12T19:46:40Z Xach: Maybe it is very easy to use! But I found it really hard to build.
2014-12-12T19:47:00Z Xach didn't notice the license
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2014-12-12T19:47:19Z H4ns: Xach: unless it is in quicklisp, ease of use includes ease of building.
2014-12-12T19:47:34Z H4ns: Xach: agpl.  just saying.
2014-12-12T19:47:59Z Xach: Quadrescence and I discussed de.setf.* just yesterday
2014-12-12T19:48:04Z DeadTrickster: wtf is agpl
2014-12-12T19:48:06Z Xach: in person! brookline lisp meeting
2014-12-12T19:48:08Z Quadrescence: :)
2014-12-12T19:48:15Z H4ns: Xach: wow!
2014-12-12T19:48:32Z H4ns: Xach: i'm meeting james on sunday.  anything you like me to convey to him? :)
2014-12-12T19:48:35Z pjb: DeadTrickster: it's GNU Affero General Public License (version 3).
2014-12-12T19:48:47Z Xach: kenny tilton was envious
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2014-12-12T19:49:21Z H4ns: haven't heard from tilton in a while
2014-12-12T19:49:22Z Xach: H4ns: do lots of free work and give it away under terms that are more convenient to others than to himself regardless of his personal feelings and priorities!
2014-12-12T19:49:27Z pjb: DeadTrickster: it's if you use my code on your server, then you should give the public the sources of your server, so they can 1- check what your program does on their data, 2- run their own servers so that you don't get to spy their data, 3- modify, 4- distribute with or without their modifications, etc.
2014-12-12T19:49:50Z DeadTrickster: woops
2014-12-12T19:49:52Z pjb: DeadTrickster: if you don't agree, then don't use my sources. You can hire me and pay me to write privative code (while I still need the money).
2014-12-12T19:49:52Z Xach: Well, maybe not. "hi", I guess. I don't know much about James or his work, other than that I can't use it.
2014-12-12T19:49:55Z H4ns: Xach: that is general, but good advice.
2014-12-12T19:50:24Z H4ns: Xach: i'll tell him that people would like to use the amqp stuff but they have trouble building it.
2014-12-12T19:50:31Z DeadTrickster: pjb, thanks a lot for saving my time
2014-12-12T19:50:55Z pjb: You wouldn't want us poor programmers to die hungry, would you?
2014-12-12T19:51:14Z Xach: H4ns: I'd be very curious to know what kind of response you get. I have an idea but it would be interesting to know if it's wrong or right.
2014-12-12T19:51:23Z pjb: I promise all my sources will turn BSD/MIT/public domain as soon as I'm provided housing fooding and energy for free.
2014-12-12T19:51:37Z H4ns: Xach: i know him relatively well, so what would you guess?
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2014-12-12T19:52:09Z pjb: DeadTrickster: so an alternative would be to promote citizen revenue/universal salary/income, whatever you want to call it.
2014-12-12T19:52:09Z Xach: H4ns: I would guess that he has carefully chosen the licensing and build structure to solve problems he feels strongly about and that he does not want to change them for the convenience of others who don't appreciate the problems.
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2014-12-12T19:52:44Z Xach: It doesn't seem like an arrangement someone would choose casually.
2014-12-12T19:53:08Z DeadTrickster: pjb, well it's unusable because it doesn't work with QL anyway, maybe finally it's time to move to Erlang
2014-12-12T19:53:27Z pjb: :-)
2014-12-12T19:53:27Z H4ns: Xach: that should not be too far off.  after all, his code style also makes the code rather hard to approach from me.  so maybe it is best to leave it alone.
2014-12-12T19:53:41Z H4ns: i'll report the interest nevertheless.
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2014-12-12T19:53:57Z Xach: Let me know how it goes.
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2014-12-12T19:54:52Z Xach is excited to have the green light to meet up with Lispers in London in April
2014-12-12T19:55:09Z H4ns will come, too.
2014-12-12T19:55:26Z H4ns: i've been in london last week and it was strangely awesome.
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2014-12-12T19:58:12Z DeadTrickster: any usable lib for hosting java runtime inside sbcl? please please tell me it exists
2014-12-12T19:58:31Z pjb: DeadTrickster: you could have a look at "Doing Evil Things With Lisp".
2014-12-12T19:58:43Z pjb: It shows how to load programs inside a sbcl image to do "evil" things.
2014-12-12T19:58:53Z rme: I'm concerned that backend/openmcl.lisp in usocket uses ccl::xxx all over the place.  The current usocket-0.6.1 doesn't work in trunk CCL due to the use of unexported symbols.
2014-12-12T19:59:05Z pjb: So theorically, you could load a jvm inside sbcl :-)
2014-12-12T19:59:07Z rme: What can I do to encourage programmers not to use unexported symbols like this?
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2014-12-12T19:59:40Z H4ns: rme: you can tell them it is a bad idea :)
2014-12-12T19:59:45Z pjb: Sure, it's a real PITA. I've been fighting for years with ccl: and ccl:: coming over from RMCL…
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2014-12-12T20:00:10Z rme: Hey, programmers! Using unexported symbols is a bad idea!
2014-12-12T20:00:15Z pjb: rme: same as ccl reader macros for ffi such as #/ #_ #$.  Bad.
2014-12-12T20:00:16Z H4ns: rme: you could also create style-warnings if someone does it, but people gonna hate you.
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2014-12-12T20:00:49Z pjb: What is good is to define clearly defined modules with normal standard lisp API (defpackage with exported and documented symbols).
2014-12-12T20:00:55Z Bike: i've been using unexported ccl symbols because my ccl bug report disappeared or something. feels so... decadent
2014-12-12T20:01:01Z pjb: Then you can port by implementing the package on the new platform.
2014-12-12T20:01:34Z rme: If there's functionality that people need, I'd rather hear about.
2014-12-12T20:01:44Z rme: Bike: Do you know your ticket number?
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2014-12-12T20:02:53Z DeadTrickster: i tried mono with sbcl https://gist.github.com/deadtrickster/6d4128f71f5e53717e4d it works(even gtk apps) except two things 1) random? NullReferenceExceptions 2) After Console.ReadLine terminal still accepts input but stops echoing
2014-12-12T20:03:13Z Bike: hm, maybe i didn't file a bug report for this because i was discouraged by an earlier one http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1066
2014-12-12T20:03:16Z Bike: guess i'll do that then
2014-12-12T20:03:41Z rme: Now I'm trying to decide if I want to put those unexported things back so that usocket and its dependents will work on trunk.
2014-12-12T20:03:57Z rme: Bike: I'm sorry nobody did anything with your bug report.  I'll look at it today.
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2014-12-12T20:04:07Z DeadTrickster: Regarding 1) I think I done something wrong with signals
2014-12-12T20:04:07Z Bike: it's super minor stuff, really
2014-12-12T20:04:36Z Bike: the one i'm about to file is compiler macros, which nobody uses
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2014-12-12T20:04:39Z DeadTrickster: but second issue... it's just insane
2014-12-12T20:05:12Z rme: Bike: Well, I encourage you to write the ticket anyway.
2014-12-12T20:05:17Z Bike: can do
2014-12-12T20:05:19Z ivan4th: DeadTrickster: I remember there was a thing called RDNZL that intended to provide interface for .NET from CL. Tried ~8 years ago. Also, the Rich Hickey wrote something RPC-like for interfacing java & .net remotely, before making Clojure
2014-12-12T20:05:47Z ivan4th: http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ - I doubt that it's possible to use it with Mono though
2014-12-12T20:05:52Z DeadTrickster: rdnzl if i'm correct is windows beast
2014-12-12T20:07:08Z ivan4th: Rich Hickey's lib was called Foil IIRC
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2014-12-12T20:07:29Z DeadTrickster: also docs for mono runtime interfaces among the worst I ever seen
2014-12-12T20:07:38Z ivan4th: http://foil.sourceforge.net/ there was .NET version also IIRC
2014-12-12T20:07:41Z H4ns: foil is lispworks only, i think
2014-12-12T20:07:52Z ivan4th: then it was something else
2014-12-12T20:07:57Z H4ns: david lichteblau wrote something once.  don't know what the state of it is nowadays.
2014-12-12T20:08:16Z rme: There was/is a thing called jfli.  gbyers ported it to ccl a while ago and included it as an example.
2014-12-12T20:08:53Z DeadTrickster: http://jfli.sourceforge.net/
2014-12-12T20:09:55Z DeadTrickster: I tried this, no luck
2014-12-12T20:10:11Z ivan4th: https://github.com/jasom/foil looks like Foil isn't lispworks-only, is it?
2014-12-12T20:10:44Z ivan4th: the C# part https://github.com/jasom/foil/tree/master/FoilCLISvr
2014-12-12T20:11:09Z H4ns: jfli was the lispworks specifc thing
2014-12-12T20:11:17Z H4ns: sorry
2014-12-12T20:11:25Z DeadTrickster: (require "comm") ;LispWorks-specific socket library
2014-12-12T20:11:30Z DeadTrickster: https://github.com/jasom/foil/blob/master/docs/foil.md#fvms
2014-12-12T20:11:41Z ivan4th: hmmm I remember using foil from clisp somehow
2014-12-12T20:11:45Z ivan4th: it was long time ago
2014-12-12T20:12:30Z ivan4th: did "locate foil" on my archive machine and found some .fas files even
2014-12-12T20:12:39Z lavokad: hi, how is it that (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((account bank-account) &key) does not need a parameter symbol after the &key?
2014-12-12T20:13:04Z ivan4th: DeadTrickster: perhaps you may try to ask jasom about it
2014-12-12T20:14:18Z DeadTrickster: yea i'm cloning it right now, who knows maybe this time it's not windows/whatever specific
2014-12-12T20:15:12Z DeadTrickster: I still do not understand how come so many guys writing lisp on windows
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2014-12-12T20:16:03Z kami: Good evening.
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2014-12-12T20:16:11Z rme: I'd expect that it makes prorgramming on Windows nicer.
2014-12-12T20:16:26Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: windows is not all that exotic outside of the freenode bubble :)
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2014-12-12T20:16:33Z ivan4th: DeadTrickster: I, for one, don't write Lisp on windows. sometimes have to compile lisp apps for Windows though
2014-12-12T20:17:01Z kami: jsnell: I just stumbled upon shake-lisp-and-die
2014-12-12T20:17:54Z kami: Where can I learn more about how to expand on it?
2014-12-12T20:18:09Z kami: https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html
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2014-12-12T20:19:07Z ivan4th: DeadTrickster: as of now, I'm trying to exploit the current pseudo-patriotism thing to make my Windows users switch over to Linux, but it didn't work so far
2014-12-12T20:19:24Z DeadTrickster: ??
2014-12-12T20:19:54Z ivan4th: you know, all of your Windows are controlled by NSA and this kind of bullshit
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2014-12-12T20:21:13Z jsnell: kami: that's a difficult question. there's two areas of knowledge that are needed:
2014-12-12T20:21:39Z jsnell: a) understanding the memory layout of all the objects in sbcl. those can generally be figured out from either the lisp-side object definitions or the garbage collector
2014-12-12T20:23:10Z jsnell: b) understanding the dependencies between sbcl components and figuring out which references between the components need to be cut if you want to drop out one of the components (say the compiler). there's no straightforward place to learn that without learning about every part of sbcl
2014-12-12T20:23:21Z jsnell: three areas! there are three areas of knowledge that are needed
2014-12-12T20:23:59Z Bike: rme: oh it was fixed in the interim. cool
2014-12-12T20:24:00Z jsnell: c) being able to debug a core that doesn't start because some essential bit of functionality has been cut out, without access to the lisp debugger which also won't be working
2014-12-12T20:24:45Z jsnell: there's no existing guide to that, though the notes of people doing sbcl ports will be helpful
2014-12-12T20:25:40Z DeadTrickster: who needs amqp client here? maybe we can cooperate and quickly write something?
2014-12-12T20:26:25Z kami: jsnell: do you gather such information in a wiki or such?
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2014-12-12T20:26:58Z DeadTrickster: serialization part can be generated from here for example https://github.com/rabbitmq/rabbitmq-codegen
2014-12-12T20:27:05Z kami: (you = the group of people working on sbcl)
2014-12-12T20:27:30Z kami: otherwise: do you have one or two pointers to such notes?
2014-12-12T20:27:39Z jsnell: kami: I hardly qualify as working sbcl these days, unfortunately. there used to be a internals wiki, it appears to be dead now
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2014-12-12T20:27:53Z kami: ah wait, I had a page with arm porting notes from ...
2014-12-12T20:28:05Z jsnell: from nyef
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2014-12-12T20:28:23Z kami: jsnell: right.
2014-12-12T20:28:56Z kami: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt
2014-12-12T20:29:07Z kami: doesn't load here
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2014-12-12T20:34:43Z kami: pkhuong's http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/04/13/starting-to-hack-on-sbcl/ is great
2014-12-12T20:35:02Z kami: Enough pointers to start.
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2014-12-12T20:35:32Z kami: jsnell: may I bug you midway from time to time?
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2014-12-12T20:36:31Z jsnell: sure. though asking on #sbcl isn't a bad idea either
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2014-12-12T20:37:02Z kami: jsnell: thanks for the hint
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2014-12-12T21:13:51Z stacksmith: G'day. A quick sanity check, please.  I have a macro that parses a DSL and creates a data object, that I would like to be bound to a global symbol for easy REPL access.  Should the macro just defvar the symbol, or is it more involved?
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2014-12-12T21:15:25Z Grue`: just make sure you really need defvar and not defparameter
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2014-12-12T21:16:39Z Bike: yeah that sounds more like defparameter to me
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2014-12-12T21:17:05Z stacksmith: Grue`, Bike , correct, as I will want to be able to recompile the DSL snippet...
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2014-12-12T21:18:03Z stacksmith: I had old code that used import...  This makes more sense.
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2014-12-12T21:20:08Z stacksmith: Thanks
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2014-12-12T21:27:39Z Sikander: Hi guys
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2014-12-12T21:30:40Z Sikander: I have an ffi to tcl/tk, but can only process events in the same thread; how do I go about still being able to also run lisp commands while accessing the gui?
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2014-12-12T21:32:45Z Shinmera: I don't know how your ffi or gui toolkit handles threading, but one solution would always be to put a REPL into your gui.
2014-12-12T21:33:45Z Grue`: run swank server in another thread and connect slime to it
2014-12-12T21:33:54Z Sikander: The toolkit provides its own threading facility. But when I start a thread there to run the event loop, everything crashes and burns.
2014-12-12T21:34:27Z Shinmera: What implementation are you using?
2014-12-12T21:34:29Z Sikander: When I start a thread in lisp, I have no access to the toolkit (or rather, nothing happens)
2014-12-12T21:34:32Z Sikander: sbc
2014-12-12T21:34:34Z Sikander: l
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2014-12-12T21:34:38Z Sikander: on linux
2014-12-12T21:34:59Z Shinmera: Try CCL or see the bottom of http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt
2014-12-12T21:36:06Z Sikander: Shinmera: Thanks, will try that
2014-12-12T21:36:39Z Shinmera: I hope it'll work for you!
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2014-12-12T21:43:36Z Xach: luis: is a new slime imminent?
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2014-12-12T21:51:58Z stassats: the bottom is http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#known-issues
2014-12-12T21:52:32Z stassats: making the default sbcl configuration work with foreign callbacks should be straightforward
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2014-12-12T22:39:00Z ivan4th: DeadTrickster: I may need an AMQP client soon, but don't know whether I'll have enough time to actually write it. Currently considering making some kind of CFFI-based rabbitmq-c bindings. Also, considering 100% CL AMQP solution, I'd prefer cl-async-based lib which is not what you're using AFAIK.
2014-12-12T22:39:38Z ivan4th: Although it's surely possible to write some common AMQP protocol handling code that can be used both with cl-async and iolib etc.
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2014-12-12T22:40:46Z theseb: iirc clojure automagically gensyms its macros.....would it be hard to write a macro for lisp macros that automatically wrapped existing lets inside another gensym-ing let?
2014-12-12T22:41:02Z theseb: (I'm assuming 99.99% of local vars of macros come from lets)
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2014-12-12T22:43:13Z Bike: theseb: it is not hard and exists as alexandria:once-only
2014-12-12T22:43:18Z Bike: or alexandria:with-gensyms
2014-12-12T22:43:28Z Bike: (they're different things but I'm not sure which you're thinking of)
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2014-12-12T22:44:29Z theseb: nice
2014-12-12T22:44:52Z pjb: DeadTrickster: that's the problem with Clojure: anything in it, is a trivial CL library.
2014-12-12T22:45:09Z Bike: well, i say "not hard", but once-only is kind of hard to understand at first
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2014-12-12T22:45:21Z oGMo: i'd say "except the JVM", except there's ABCL, so.... yeah
2014-12-12T22:45:35Z Bike: abcl isn't really trivial right :p
2014-12-12T22:45:46Z oGMo: Bike: no, but it's the "in CL" part
2014-12-12T22:46:00Z Bike: mmhm
2014-12-12T22:46:12Z oGMo: now maybe clojure is faster than abcl, i don't know
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2014-12-12T22:56:54Z goglosh: this question might be stupid but
2014-12-12T22:57:03Z goglosh: do you guys ever get bugs with lexical scoping?
2014-12-12T22:57:15Z rme: I get bugs everywhere.
2014-12-12T22:57:22Z goglosh: well yeah actually
2014-12-12T22:57:26Z Shinmera: goglosh: What's that supposed to mean
2014-12-12T22:59:14Z goglosh: dman I'm not sure lol
2014-12-12T22:59:20Z goglosh: I mean things like name collisions
2014-12-12T23:00:04Z goglosh: when you have a hierarchical function call, and perhaps two functions refer to a higher-scoped symbol
2014-12-12T23:00:17Z Xach: rme: i want to stop using ccl::backtrace-as-list, but I didn't get any feedback about it on openmcl-devel.
2014-12-12T23:00:26Z Grue`: goglosh: isnt that dynamic scoping?
2014-12-12T23:00:37Z Shinmera: goglosh: Are you talking about dynamic scoping or closures or ..?
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2014-12-12T23:01:15Z goglosh: hmm yeah something like dynamical scoping
2014-12-12T23:01:32Z goglosh: what I mean is, can name collisions happen in lexical scoping?
2014-12-12T23:01:33Z Xach: rme: hmm, I don't see my email in the archive, though. maybe it didn't get through?
2014-12-12T23:01:44Z goglosh: subtle ones?
2014-12-12T23:01:53Z Xach wonders if he's moderated or something
2014-12-12T23:02:18Z goglosh: #e
2014-12-12T23:02:21Z goglosh: sorry
2014-12-12T23:02:22Z Shinmera: I don't even know what "name collision" means
2014-12-12T23:02:35Z Grue`: goglosh: dynamic scoping can get pretty weird if you're not careful, which is why there's *earmuffs* naming convention and stuff like that
2014-12-12T23:03:01Z goglosh: is CL dynamically or lexically scoped? I'm lost now
2014-12-12T23:03:06Z oGMo: both
2014-12-12T23:03:06Z Shinmera: Both.
2014-12-12T23:03:28Z Shinmera: Variables that are declared special are dynamically scoped. Everything else lexically.
2014-12-12T23:03:31Z Grue`: the only thing that can get bad with lexical scoping off the top of my head is if you use a nonhygienic macro without realizing it
2014-12-12T23:04:47Z rme: Xach: backtrace-as-list is a pretty simple application of ccl:map-call-frames.  Maybe I should just export it.
2014-12-12T23:04:57Z rme: https://lists.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2014-August/010667.html is the message.  Looks like you got ignored.
2014-12-12T23:05:11Z goglosh: Shinmera: oh didn't know that, interesting
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2014-12-12T23:06:24Z Xach: rme: Ok, thanks. I'll roll my own (or crib from swank) for now.
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2014-12-12T23:06:53Z rme: Xach: Nah, I'll just export it.  It's simple enough.
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2014-12-12T23:07:08Z Shinmera: Xach: If you need stack inspection, you can take a look at https://github.com/Shinmera/dissect
2014-12-12T23:07:33Z Shinmera /really/ should get to writing more impl specific parts for that.
2014-12-12T23:07:42Z oGMo: Shinmera: neat
2014-12-12T23:07:47Z Xach: Shinmera: SO MANY ccl::'s there!
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2014-12-12T23:07:56Z Xach: I'm trying to get away from that!
2014-12-12T23:08:04Z Shinmera: Yes :(
2014-12-12T23:08:17Z rme looks at Shinmera with narrowed eyes
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2014-12-12T23:08:46Z Grue`: it seems like ccl isn't exporting enough symbols to me...
2014-12-12T23:08:53Z Shinmera: There's probably better ways to do it, but given my pretty much inexistent experience with CCL internals, I can't say.
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2014-12-12T23:09:35Z Shinmera: I would definitely appreciate pointers in the proper direction though!
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2014-12-12T23:09:50Z rme: Some time ago, gz looked at what kind of stuff Slime needed, and she made exported API to support that.
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2014-12-12T23:11:08Z Shinmera: Digging through Slime source isn't a fun experience, but I'll have a look to see what's going on there / if I can leverage that.
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2014-12-12T23:11:56Z gabriel_laddel: anyone here familiar with usocket?
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2014-12-12T23:12:09Z foom: ......lists.clozure.com has a "Clozure Associates Root CA?"-issued cert? Can't be bothered to get a free SSL certificate signed by a real CA?
2014-12-12T23:12:49Z Shinmera: Or just put cloudflare in front of it, that gives you SSL for free nowadays.
2014-12-12T23:12:51Z rme: I didn't know there were any free wildcard certificates available from widely-trusted "real" CAs.
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2014-12-12T23:13:00Z foom: no, not wildcard, indeed.
2014-12-12T23:13:21Z foom: but you can get one for all x.clozure.com
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2014-12-12T23:13:56Z Shinmera: ((OT https://www.cloudflare.com/ssl )
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2014-12-12T23:14:12Z Shinmera: *)
2014-12-12T23:14:16Z alpha-: "ssl"
2014-12-12T23:14:19Z rme: foom: Would you happen to know any names of such CAs off the top of your head?
2014-12-12T23:14:35Z foom: startssl.com is the one I use.
2014-12-12T23:14:45Z alpha-: more like cloudflare.com/mitm
2014-12-12T23:14:57Z foom: Alternately, you can get a wildcard cert for $200/year, ish.
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2014-12-12T23:17:02Z foom: Probably only need to pay for that once anyways. By a year from now, EFF's Let's Encrypt will be ready
2014-12-12T23:17:11Z rme: I dunno. I trust myself more than I trust organinzations like "Autoridad de Certificacion Raiz del Estado Venezolano".
2014-12-12T23:17:58Z foom: Of course. But that's irrelevant because your browser trusts all those such things whether your cert is signed by them or not
2014-12-12T23:18:34Z foom: "Let's Encrypt" will be nice, because it will automate the issuance of free certs
2014-12-12T23:18:46Z |3b|: at least don't redirect to https if you have a cert that won't work by default :)
2014-12-12T23:19:03Z foom: instead of having to go through the hassle of using openssl and a crappy CA website to issue them
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2014-12-12T23:21:39Z |3b|: since while we might trust you, we have no way of knowing it is actually you, which makes the whole thing sort of pointless anyway
2014-12-12T23:21:48Z rme: Well, I suppose you are right: nobody likes having the browser fuss about a certificate signed by an unknown/untrusted authority.
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2014-12-12T23:23:11Z Bike: I feel like I should be offended on Venezuela's behalf.
2014-12-12T23:23:21Z rme: And asking non-Clozure people to install my private root certificate is not reasonable.
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2014-12-12T23:26:11Z rme: I'll refrain from ranting about PKI lossage; this is #lisp, after all.
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2014-12-12T23:29:25Z orthecreedence: can't wait for a free CA
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2014-12-12T23:29:36Z orthecreedence: its such a racket right now
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2014-12-12T23:30:09Z alpha-: free ca https://cert.startcom.org/
2014-12-12T23:30:13Z orthecreedence: what we really need is a distributed CA system though
2014-12-12T23:30:18Z orthecreedence: i hate startssl
2014-12-12T23:30:20Z alpha-: free community ca http://www.cacert.org/
2014-12-12T23:30:42Z orthecreedence: they are really difficult to work with
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2014-12-12T23:31:10Z alpha-: distributed ca system http://web.monkeysphere.info/
2014-12-12T23:31:29Z orthecreedence: their process makes so much more sense: charge for the verification, not the certificate, and allow issuing of as many certs as you want
2014-12-12T23:31:57Z orthecreedence: havent heard of monkeysphere, checking it out. namecoin is a good candidate as well
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2014-12-12T23:35:25Z jsnell: I couldn't be bothered with renewing a startssl cert, their process is annoying enough. normal certs are under $10 anyway
2014-12-12T23:35:59Z jsnell: though the convenience admittedly came with other costs... https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2014-12-05-how-buying-a-ssl-certificate-broke-my-email-setup/
2014-12-12T23:36:05Z Xach: heh
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2014-12-12T23:41:01Z |3b|: that "let's encrypt" thing looks convenient, maybe i'll actually fix my https if that gets done :p
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