2014-12-09T00:01:34Z drmeister: Wisdom, had he? 2014-12-09T00:01:35Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:02:25Z antoszka: Yes. 2014-12-09T00:03:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:07:34Z jasom: he passed away about 5 years ago 2014-12-09T00:11:23Z eskatrem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T00:12:26Z drmeister: Ah. I don't know what to say. 2014-12-09T00:14:19Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:16:47Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:19:27Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:22:29Z brent80 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-09T00:26:37Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T00:27:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-09T00:29:08Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T00:32:37Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:33:00Z soggybre1d is now known as soggybread 2014-12-09T00:35:41Z genii quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T00:36:17Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:36:43Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:36:54Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:39:35Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:39:43Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:39:43Z GrayMagiker quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:40:29Z emma joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:41:21Z drmeister: So I turned off all the tracing and I'm comparing the swank session in Clasp to on in ECL. 2014-12-09T00:41:29Z mingvs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:42:28Z linux_dream joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:42:31Z drmeister: This is the one from clasp - I'm running it in lldb to trap crashes. 2014-12-09T00:43:10Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/41b735abf06d5fec98dc 2014-12-09T00:43:34Z drmeister: On line 60 are some worrying warnings 2014-12-09T00:43:44Z drmeister: I don't yet know where they are coming from 2014-12-09T00:44:29Z drmeister: I don't see that in ECL 2014-12-09T00:45:13Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:45:22Z zxq9 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-12-09T00:46:38Z drmeister: Hmm, but ECL closes the connection in the same way. 2014-12-09T00:46:55Z emma joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:47:16Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/336173ed731f110621c7 2014-12-09T00:48:45Z drmeister: There's not much to go on other than those warnings. And ECL is behaving the same way. 2014-12-09T00:48:50Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:49:08Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-09T00:49:44Z Bike: what, ecl also disconnects when you try to run anything? 2014-12-09T00:50:30Z zRecursive: drmeister: I guess it is hard for you to find any ECL genius to help 2014-12-09T00:50:31Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:50:37Z drmeister: Yeah. 2014-12-09T00:50:51Z drmeister: But when I shut down emacs and then start up a fresh one, that one works with ECL. 2014-12-09T00:51:17Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:51:19Z drmeister: The connection stays live and I can send multiple forms to swank running in ECL in a terminal. 2014-12-09T00:51:39Z cpc26_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:52:30Z emma joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:53:37Z drmeister: zRecursive: Yes, someday I would like to meet an experienced ECL user. 2014-12-09T00:53:44Z drmeister: And a Griffin. 2014-12-09T00:53:57Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:54:10Z mingvs joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:54:14Z Guest89752 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:54:16Z drmeister: I see how it's supposed to work. There's a CL-USER> prompt in emacs in a *slime-repl ECL* and another in the terminal where swank is running. 2014-12-09T00:54:36Z zRecursive: hm 2014-12-09T00:54:48Z drmeister: I can say (setq a 1234) in emacs and a --> 1234 in the terminal. 2014-12-09T00:55:02Z Bike: that's cos of the nil communication style, mind. 2014-12-09T00:55:10Z drmeister: So it's working. 2014-12-09T00:55:47Z drmeister: I thought the nil communication style would only be able to talk to emacs. I didn't realize it could take commands at the terminal at the same time. 2014-12-09T00:56:17Z drmeister: In emacs: 2014-12-09T00:56:21Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HFMh3XYI 2014-12-09T00:56:33Z drmeister: From the terminal 2014-12-09T00:56:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TrEqmAMQ 2014-12-09T00:57:10Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-09T00:58:32Z emma joined #lisp 2014-12-09T00:59:40Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-09T01:00:18Z drmeister: Hold the freakin' phone! 2014-12-09T01:00:37Z drmeister: When I start from a fresh emacs with Clasp I get a REPL that works! 2014-12-09T01:01:21Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-09T01:01:39Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:01:45Z drmeister: After a couple of forms it went into an infinite loop. 2014-12-09T01:02:03Z drmeister: Reproducing... 2014-12-09T01:03:26Z yaewa joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:04:38Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:04:48Z drmeister: It doesn't like this form: (setq a "You are amazing") 2014-12-09T01:05:04Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T01:05:12Z Bike: string escaping silliness? 2014-12-09T01:05:29Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-09T01:05:37Z drmeister: Do you think it's growing tired of me? 2014-12-09T01:06:49Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:08:00Z drmeister: Grrr - I hate infinite loops. 2014-12-09T01:08:05Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AhoYWqVo 2014-12-09T01:08:46Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:13:12Z drmeister: This is on the emacs side. 2014-12-09T01:13:13Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9b5a743cad4ef600e24b 2014-12-09T01:13:19Z drmeister: This is on the swank/clasp side 2014-12-09T01:13:36Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T01:13:51Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/559c2ef32bc55eeb535c 2014-12-09T01:14:35Z drmeister: The (setq a "Testing") sends swank/clasp into an infinite loop - I think it's trying to bring up the debugger or a backtrace - I dunno. 2014-12-09T01:15:02Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:16:58Z theseb: why would cyanogenmod get SLOWER over a few weeks just like stock? 2014-12-09T01:17:03Z theseb: all those app updates? 2014-12-09T01:17:09Z theseb: i hate app updates fwiw 2014-12-09T01:19:34Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T01:19:39Z Kanae quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T01:20:17Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:21:13Z Bike: wrong channel 2014-12-09T01:21:28Z theseb: oops 2014-12-09T01:21:47Z ryankarason: :) 2014-12-09T01:22:08Z ryankarason: in another channel, my friend has a bot that if someone says ls it gives contents of / 2014-12-09T01:22:10Z theseb: and then i slit her throat with a butter knife.... 2014-12-09T01:22:14Z theseb: oops sorry wrong channel 2014-12-09T01:22:21Z ryankarason: :) 2014-12-09T01:22:37Z Adeon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T01:22:51Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-09T01:25:33Z manuel___ quit (Quit: manuel___) 2014-12-09T01:28:56Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-09T01:30:46Z drmeister: So it turns out that swank has some internal tests built into it and clasp is failing them. 2014-12-09T01:31:13Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e4f037d43eae1fd68935 2014-12-09T01:31:39Z drmeister: My failures: 2014-12-09T01:32:04Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/cf7b9860c8398432a64d 2014-12-09T01:34:20Z drmeister: Hmm it's all about decode-arglist and decoded-arglist-to-string 2014-12-09T01:40:47Z Adeon_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:41:30Z Adeon_ is now known as Adeon 2014-12-09T01:42:22Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-09T01:44:56Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:46:07Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T01:46:29Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:46:41Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T01:48:52Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-09T01:58:42Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-09T02:13:58Z Guest89752 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T02:19:04Z klltkr_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Namely, it's defun, defmacro, defgeneric, defmethod, flet, labels, and lambda that are the macros that may expand to (function (named-lambda …)). User code doesn't contain any occurence of #'(named-lambda …). 2014-12-09T03:52:43Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T03:53:11Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-09T03:54:33Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T03:55:15Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T03:59:42Z cibs quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-09T04:04:35Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2014-12-09T04:05:08Z drmeister: That's a funny coincidence. I just added a CORE:FUNCTION-NAME declaration. 2014-12-09T04:05:30Z beach: OK. 2014-12-09T04:06:33Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d0e1a6e246f3aa31f22e 2014-12-09T04:08:09Z Bike: What about (lambda (x) (declare (integer x)) (block foo ...)) 2014-12-09T04:08:21Z Bike: basically i don't think you should have that case. 2014-12-09T04:08:25Z drmeister: And the sad case: (core:extract-lambda-name '(lambda (x) 1)) --> LAMBDA 2014-12-09T04:08:38Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-09T04:08:42Z drmeister: It will be called FOO - why not? 2014-12-09T04:09:14Z Bike: Is it actually? And you counted for having a declare function-name and a block? 2014-12-09T04:09:59Z drmeister: I started with using the block name when the form looked like this: (lambda (...) (block FOO ...)) 2014-12-09T04:10:07Z drmeister: But that doesn't cover setf functions. 2014-12-09T04:11:04Z drmeister: Also the block name is not really the lambda name. So I added a FUNCTION-NAME declaration - that seems to be much more consistent with the Common Lisp way. 2014-12-09T04:11:15Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:11:18Z Bike: that's what i meant, stick with the declare case, don't bother with the block thing 2014-12-09T04:12:48Z drmeister: I thought I would use the block thing if the declare case wasn't provided. Currently all of my code uses the block thing and I have to go and retrofit the declare in. I guess when I get all the declares in everywhere then I can delete to backup code that uses the block name. 2014-12-09T04:13:16Z drmeister: The logic goes if declare use that else if block use that else use LAMBDA 2014-12-09T04:13:18Z beach: I like the declaration solution by the way. 2014-12-09T04:14:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T04:16:05Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T04:16:18Z henesy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T04:17:43Z drmeister: Thanks. I'm debugging swank and I haven't figured out how to get it to crash into the clasp debugger when it has a missing function. So I'm forced to use lldb and the backtraces in lldb didn't have useful names for the functions. They are all lambda212388 2014-12-09T04:18:02Z drmeister: They all have the form lambda#### 2014-12-09T04:18:59Z paritybit joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:22:39Z keen_________ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:24:01Z keen________ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T04:24:16Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:25:38Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:26:03Z drichards: btw - the solution to my problem last night was define-compiler-macro. I used it to define a second macro which evaluated the args I needed to evaluate and then expanded to he initial macro form. It was easy once I learned about compiler macros. I never used them before. 2014-12-09T04:28:39Z skippednote joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:30:23Z a5h15h joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:31:01Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:31:12Z beach: Interesting you should bring up compiler macros. I think all the transformations that can happen to the code actually written by the user make it hard to understand a backtrace, even if it has function names in it. 2014-12-09T04:31:58Z Bike: i've gotten used to it, personally 2014-12-09T04:32:04Z drmeister: Yes - but it's the price we pay. 2014-12-09T04:32:46Z Bike: well, ok. only mostly used to it. 2014-12-09T04:32:51Z skippednote quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-09T04:33:44Z pillton: You can always write WITHOUT-COMPILER-MACROS. 2014-12-09T04:33:47Z beach: Bike: I agree, but it takes a long time to get used to, and that knowledge is implementation specific. I am thinking of people who use Lisp initially. 2014-12-09T04:34:00Z drmeister: That's why I'd like a macroexpand-everything-dammit function. 2014-12-09T04:34:15Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-12-09T04:34:20Z beach: pillton: I brought up compiler macros just as one example of what makes things hard. 2014-12-09T04:34:42Z Bike: i'd definitely like a way to see what code is actually "expanding to" in IR or what have you (I say since in the case of SBCL, most of the transformations are into not-code) 2014-12-09T04:35:19Z Bike: macroexpansion only works with the lexical stuff and all. 2014-12-09T04:36:46Z beach: What I would like is a way for error messages and backtraces to make sense to someone who doesn't have years of experience with Common Lisp *and* the particular implementation he/she is using. 2014-12-09T04:37:19Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T04:37:52Z pillton: The problem with backtraces are OPTIMIZE declarations. 2014-12-09T04:38:09Z beach: How so? 2014-12-09T04:38:22Z pillton: They can completely hide some parts. 2014-12-09T04:39:02Z drmeister: Noob-lisp 2014-12-09T04:39:16Z Bike: well, if we're talking about newbie code, there's probably not a lot of optimize. 2014-12-09T04:39:42Z pillton: No, but the default values matter. 2014-12-09T04:40:18Z pillton: (proclaim '(optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) appeared quite often in the early days. 2014-12-09T04:42:41Z pillton: Bike: Is there a way to perform all of the passes in SBCL? 2014-12-09T04:43:03Z pillton: Sorry, see the result of all of the passes in SBCL? 2014-12-09T04:43:09Z Bike: there's a trace option for compile, but it only outputs to file and i have no idea how to read it. 2014-12-09T04:43:32Z Bike: er, compile-file. do (compile-file whatever :trace-file filename) 2014-12-09T04:43:47Z Bike: that gives you IR1 and IR2 I... think. 2014-12-09T04:43:59Z pillton: I see. I will check it out. 2014-12-09T04:46:06Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-09T04:46:19Z klltkr_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-09T04:46:57Z pillton: beach: I know what you are saying. Zhivago was talking about something similar recently. 2014-12-09T04:47:04Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:49:47Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:51:43Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:52:27Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-09T04:55:05Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T04:55:37Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-09T04:58:06Z pillton: MACROEXPAND-EVERTYING-DAMMIT isn't necessarily a good idea either. Maybe you don't want your complicated LOOP expanded? 2014-12-09T04:58:40Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-09T05:03:18Z Niac joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:07:07Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:08:53Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:15:58Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:17:05Z beach: pillton: Can you point me to the approximate location in the logs? 2014-12-09T05:17:19Z vsync joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:18:11Z beach: pillton: Is it the discussion about deep vs shallow code reading? 2014-12-09T05:18:50Z beach: pillton: Yeah, I think I found it. 2014-12-09T05:19:05Z pillton: 2014-12-03T05:15:41Z 2014-12-09T05:19:59Z beach: Right. 2014-12-09T05:22:36Z beach: While currently it's the price we pay, I am not yet convinced that it has to be. I am willing to spend some time thinking about what makes it hard for inexperienced programmers, hopefully so that things can be improved. 2014-12-09T05:22:50Z pillton: I'm not sure there is a good answer. There is no upper bound on the number of abstractions one can use. Is BACKTRACE supposed to accommodate all of them? 2014-12-09T05:23:43Z beach: pillton: What do you mean? Can you expand that argument a bit? 2014-12-09T05:24:51Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:24:58Z malbertife quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T05:25:04Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:26:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:28:37Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:31:22Z brent80 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:36:04Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:37:33Z brent80 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-09T05:37:54Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:41:33Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:42:44Z pillton: As time progresses, people create more and more abstractions to help simplify their problem. The language of their problem has evolved, but BACKTRACE still returns details of the most primitive abstraction: the runtime environment. 2014-12-09T05:43:35Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:43:45Z pillton: The fact that (coerce x 'double-float) is transformed to SB-KERNEL:%DOUBLE-FLOAT isn't important all of the time. 2014-12-09T05:44:32Z pillton: You could say the same thing when you write M+ to add matrices together, but see NAXPY in the backtrace. 2014-12-09T05:44:38Z beach: By "people" you mean the system programmers? 2014-12-09T05:45:27Z pnpuff: pillton: I think backtrace is very useful in the context of stack frames 2014-12-09T05:46:20Z beach: pillton: I am thinking that we need different "views" when we implement part of the system and when we use it as an application programmer. 2014-12-09T05:46:55Z beach: The application programmer should not have to understand the details of the system code in order to understand what went wrong in his/her application code. 2014-12-09T05:49:11Z beach: I think part of the reason so many details of the implementation are exposed to the application programmer is that the system did a mediocre job of checking syntax and arguments of application code before applying transformations and calling other system code. 2014-12-09T05:50:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:50:42Z pillton: I agree, but not the terms. System could mean a math library, and the application could mean something that automatically generates a solver for a mathematical objective. 2014-12-09T05:50:57Z pillton: It goes back to Zhivago's argument about depth. 2014-12-09T05:51:58Z codeberg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:52:05Z beach: While there are certainly situations where there is no general solution to the problem, I think we currently don't handle the ones that could be handled better. 2014-12-09T05:53:39Z beach: Take this simple example in SBCL with (debug 3) (speed 0) (safety 3): (loop for x in '(1 2 3 4 a) sum x) 2014-12-09T05:54:03Z beach: I get a message "Argument Y is not a NUMBER: A. 2014-12-09T05:54:21Z Hydan`: Hi, I am getting this error in slime - Error running timer `slime-process-available-input': (error "Not connected.") - when I run something like (endp t). I know example itself makes no sense. Any ideas where should I look? 2014-12-09T05:54:21Z beach: But my code does not contain any Y, and I know that A is not a number. 2014-12-09T05:54:24Z Hydan` is now known as Hydan 2014-12-09T05:54:28Z t4nk654 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:54:50Z Hydan: if just type any valid sexp after that it executes fine 2014-12-09T05:54:59Z beach: In the backtrace, I get sb-kernel:TWO-ARG-+ 10 A. 2014-12-09T05:55:08Z beach: But I didn't call sb-kernel:TWO-ARG-+ 2014-12-09T05:55:21Z beach: And I have no idea where the 10 came from 2014-12-09T05:55:57Z beach: Underneath the SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-+ I have: ((LAMBDA ())) 2014-12-09T05:56:01Z pillton: Yes. I agree with you. 2014-12-09T05:57:29Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:57:29Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T05:57:29Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:57:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-12-09T05:57:56Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:58:37Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T05:58:54Z pillton: Assume you solve this problem. Now picture another abstraction using your improved compiler and seeing details of your improved compiler in the backtrace. 2014-12-09T05:59:36Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:00:03Z corni joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:00:03Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T06:00:03Z corni joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:00:22Z beach: Again, I think it depends on my role. If I write a compiler, I want to know the details of what goes wrong in that code, but when I expose it for use by others, I don't want them to have to know such details. 2014-12-09T06:01:00Z pillton: Yes precisely. 2014-12-09T06:01:24Z beach: ... but currently, we have only one such role. 2014-12-09T06:01:38Z beach: and the system exposes everything to everyone. 2014-12-09T06:02:04Z Intensity quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T06:04:18Z beach: I think a single global flag would be an improvement: *programmer-knows-system-details-and-wants-to-see-those-details-in-exceptional-situations-p* 2014-12-09T06:04:49Z pillton: heh 2014-12-09T06:05:01Z beach: Not ideal, because there are probably layers of roles, library implementer, users of those libraries, etc. 2014-12-09T06:05:15Z pillton: Yes, that is what I was trying to say. 2014-12-09T06:05:17Z corni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:06:06Z beach: Even though there might not be a general solution, we shouldn't give up trying to solve the simple cases. 2014-12-09T06:07:38Z Hydan: nvm my question, it was Dylan/DIME interfering 2014-12-09T06:07:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:07:43Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:08:15Z pillton: By all means. I was just saying that the problem (in my view) goes beyond system and application. 2014-12-09T06:11:28Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:11:45Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-12-09T06:13:14Z kcj quit (Excess Flood) 2014-12-09T06:14:21Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:14:49Z a5h15h left #lisp 2014-12-09T06:15:18Z MoALTz__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-09T06:15:43Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:18:11Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:28:13Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-09T06:28:22Z wglb: I am getting error that I haven't seen before in SBCL. "unhandled sb-kernel::binding-stack-exhausted". Then we get "INFO: Binding stack guard page reprotected" and shortly dies. 2014-12-09T06:29:51Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:30:32Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-09T06:31:20Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-12-09T06:32:44Z beach: In my LOOP example above, the problem is that one user-exposed feature (LOOP) calls another general system feature (+) without checking error situations first. If LOOP were to expand SUM clauses, not to + but to (say) (sb-loop:sum-clause-to-arg-+ ...), then we could have an error message like this: In a SUM clause of LOOP, the argument to SUM must be a number, but the following was given instead: A. 2014-12-09T06:33:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:33:43Z beach: So in SICL I made a rule (not very clearly formulated at the moment) that user-visible system features can only call other general system features if it is known that those other general features can not fail. 2014-12-09T06:34:06Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:34:23Z bege: 2-21 Athabasca Hall 2014-12-09T06:34:47Z bege: sorry, wrong window 2014-12-09T06:35:01Z beach: wglb: Perhaps you have an infinite recursion, each time binding a special variable. 2014-12-09T06:35:48Z beach: Er, that should have been sum-clause-two-arg-+. 2014-12-09T06:35:53Z beach is not quite awake yet. 2014-12-09T06:36:53Z beach: pillton: I think we should try such simple improvements even though there might not be a general solution to the problem. 2014-12-09T06:38:05Z wglb: beach: Well, quite old code, and don't think anything new introduced. 2014-12-09T06:38:22Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:38:40Z beach: wglb: Start by setting (debug 3) (speed 0) (safety 3). 2014-12-09T06:38:58Z beach: wglb: I understand from #lisp participants that they use default settings. 2014-12-09T06:39:09Z beach: wglb: Maybe that's your case as well. 2014-12-09T06:39:36Z wglb: beach: That is how I almost always roll, with debug 3 speed 0 saftey 3 2014-12-09T06:39:49Z beach: Hmm, OK. 2014-12-09T06:40:44Z beach: wglb: Then maybe try tracing a bunch of functions you think are called, and see whether you get lots of nested calls. 2014-12-09T06:41:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T06:41:30Z beach: Especially functions that look like they might be called recursively. 2014-12-09T06:41:51Z mearnsh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:41:58Z theseb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-09T06:42:15Z beach: pillton: Do you agree? 2014-12-09T06:43:57Z beach: What I am suggesting involves absolutely no performance penalty. The only difference between SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-+ and SB-LOOP:SUM-CLAUSE-TWO-ARG-+ would be the condition that is signaled and the condition reporter for that condition. 2014-12-09T06:44:34Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:45:14Z beach thinks that, at this point, #lisp participants are bored to tears with his ramblings. Hence, he will now stop those ramblings. 2014-12-09T06:46:36Z shortCircuit__ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T06:47:09Z drmeister: Not bored, just sleepy and wrestling with slime 2014-12-09T06:47:34Z beach: Yeah, you have other fish to fry. Or other cats to whip as we say here. 2014-12-09T06:48:04Z wglb: beach: tracing is going to be difficult as the program is timing dependent. And it seems to be in the threaded part of the program. 2014-12-09T06:48:08Z drmeister: Or as we say in Canada, other bears to wrestle. 2014-12-09T06:48:27Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-09T06:48:33Z beach: drmeister: Joking, right? 2014-12-09T06:48:40Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-09T06:48:52Z beach: wglb: I have run out of ideas. :( 2014-12-09T06:48:56Z drmeister: Well... some of us say that. 2014-12-09T06:49:21Z drmeister: Damnit - why no backtraces! 2014-12-09T06:49:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/0kjkB9Vy 2014-12-09T06:50:06Z wglb: beach: Thanks for your pointers. Going to give the code throrough reading for use of special variables. 2014-12-09T06:50:44Z beach: wglb: Good luck. 2014-12-09T06:51:31Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-12-09T06:52:07Z drmeister: Good night all. 2014-12-09T06:52:17Z beach: Good night drmeister. 2014-12-09T07:01:04Z beach: Time to get to work! 2014-12-09T07:01:06Z beach left #lisp 2014-12-09T07:02:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:02:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:02:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:03:01Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:03:26Z rhllor joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:04:24Z meiji11` joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:07:30Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:07:48Z meiji11 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T07:09:38Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:14:55Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:16:03Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T07:17:15Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-12-09T07:17:19Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T07:17:21Z mrSpec quit (Changing 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-09T08:51:29Z schjetne: who here was interested in a library for interfacing with elasticsearch? 2014-12-09T08:52:49Z jusss` joined #lisp 2014-12-09T08:53:45Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T08:54:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-12-09T08:54:06Z Shinmera: schjetne: Searching the logs for "elastic" only turns up you. 2014-12-09T08:54:13Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T08:55:32Z jeaye: heh 2014-12-09T08:55:56Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T08:56:00Z petrutrimbitas joined #lisp 2014-12-09T08:57:03Z petrutrimbitas quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-09T08:58:31Z schjetne: Shinmera: I can't even find myself talking about it in the public logs 2014-12-09T08:58:59Z Shinmera: schjetne: This is all I have http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.12.09-09:58:25.png 2014-12-09T08:59:30Z Niac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T08:59:31Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-12-09T09:00:33Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T09:01:27Z schjetne: Shinmera: in the second line I'm asking someone a question, but I forgot who that was 2014-12-09T09:02:42Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T09:02:43Z psy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T09:03:23Z Shinmera: schjetne: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?around=2014-11-20T16:19:30&types=mnaot#1416496770 2014-12-09T09:03:39Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T09:03:49Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-12-09T09:03:58Z schjetne: Shinmera: thanks 2014-12-09T09:04:00Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-12-09T09:04:15Z Shinmera: No problem. 2014-12-09T09:04:23Z Shinmera has some work to do on the irc logs today 2014-12-09T09:04:38Z schjetne: I'll remember that page 2014-12-09T09:04:46Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T09:04:53Z Shinmera: I hope you'll find it useful! 2014-12-09T09:05:07Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T09:05:34Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-09T09:09:29Z schjetne: ferada: I'm about to start work on that 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Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T13:11:57Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T13:12:09Z isis_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:13:27Z eMBee: the subject if lisp rounding to the neaest even value for 0.5 has received lotsof discussion, but i have not seen a solution for cases where a different rounding is needed. so i came up with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144636 now i wonder if that is correct, or if anyone knows of a better way to do this. 2014-12-09T13:15:19Z Grue`: are you sure one of floor, truncate, ceiling doesn't already round the way you want it? 2014-12-09T13:16:02Z H4ns: eMBee: you probably mean "remainder" 2014-12-09T13:16:29Z H4ns: eMBee: is the remainder a floating point number? if so, are you sure that = is what you want as operator? 2014-12-09T13:17:38Z Grue`: mathematically, if div /= 1, this operation doesn't preserve the equation val = div*rounded + remainder 2014-12-09T13:18:19Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T13:19:44Z Grue`: or maybe it does actually 2014-12-09T13:21:16Z dfox joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:21:26Z jmill joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:22:43Z ferada: schjetne: cool, looking forward to it 2014-12-09T13:23:22Z henesy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T13:26:38Z Grue`: oh yes, it doesn't, because (mround 6 3) = (values 2 0) 2014-12-09T13:26:48Z schjetne: ferada: I'm planning to make rather heavy use of CLOS to make it as lispy as possible. Each query will have a yason:encode method for its elasticsearch representation. 2014-12-09T13:26:52Z stassats: eMBee: that would be ceiling 2014-12-09T13:27:44Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T13:27:52Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-09T13:27:55Z schjetne: of course, anything that YASON understands can be substituted for any of the CLOS objects if desired 2014-12-09T13:29:03Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:30:17Z ferada: schjetne: sounds good, do you already which version of elasticsearch you'll be targeting? 2014-12-09T13:33:35Z schjetne: ferada: currently running 1.3, but I haven't made a final decision yet 2014-12-09T13:33:47Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:36:28Z ferada: kk i only changed some names (aggregations) with the upgrade, so it's probably not a big deal anyway 2014-12-09T13:36:45Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:36:50Z schjetne: ferada: I'll probably end up doing 1.4 2014-12-09T13:37:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:38:10Z schjetne: Yeah, I'll be needing the new aggregation features, so yes 2014-12-09T13:39:05Z JokerDoom joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:41:30Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:41:42Z _JokerDoom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T13:44:46Z pranavrc quit 2014-12-09T13:46:04Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T13:49:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: experience vanished because computer stinks) 2014-12-09T13:50:49Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:55:06Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-12-09T13:57:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T14:06:42Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:08:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:10:51Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-09T14:15:41Z jusss` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T14:19:24Z eMBee: stassats ceiling rounds up 0.1 to 1, i need 0.1 to .049 to round down, and .05 and higher to round up 2014-12-09T14:21:32Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T14:22:05Z eMBee: Grue`: what do you mean? (round 6 3) and (mround 6 3) should produce the same result 2014-12-09T14:24:17Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:25:04Z eMBee: the only time round and mround should differ is when the remainder is half of div 2014-12-09T14:25:29Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:28:34Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T14:31:18Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:31:36Z eMBee: H4ns: not sure about =, i do need to be able to compare integers, rationals and floats. 2014-12-09T14:31:43Z bobbysmith007 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-09T14:32:25Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T14:33:18Z mrkkrp left #lisp 2014-12-09T14:34:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:34:48Z eMBee: although i could be converting floats to rationals when the value is input by the user 2014-12-09T14:35:41Z eMBee: but mround should take the same arguments as round, so it better cope with mixed types 2014-12-09T14:35:51Z Grue`: eMBee: I'm just bad at thinking today; my current belief is that the code should work, at least for rationals 2014-12-09T14:35:59Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:36:33Z H4ns: eMBee: when you're processing monetary amounts, you should rather not use floats anyway. there is no reason to use them in cl, given that rationals are available. 2014-12-09T14:36:38Z Grue`: but it's probably easier to implement as (ceiling (- val 1/2)) or something 2014-12-09T14:43:13Z eMBee: Grue` : i was wondering if there was an easier way, i'll try that, thanks. 2014-12-09T14:43:26Z eMBee: hans, you are right, in this case it is not money but time (hours) so it's not that big of a deal 2014-12-09T14:43:48Z H4ns: eMBee: time is best processed as integers. 2014-12-09T14:43:50Z eMBee: at best it's half hours, no smaller value at the monent 2014-12-09T14:43:51Z eMBee: moment 2014-12-09T14:44:01Z H4ns: eMBee: half an hour is 30 minutes. 2014-12-09T14:44:07Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:44:21Z eMBee: right, just lazyness on my part. as i don't need that precicion 2014-12-09T14:48:18Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T14:49:04Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-12-09T14:52:13Z eMBee: as i said, i can convert the input to rationals, but for mround itself it should work with the same arguments that round can take, so i do need to support floats 2014-12-09T14:52:28Z shortCircuit__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T14:52:47Z adlai: is there a way to name slime connections 2014-12-09T14:57:12Z stassats: yes 2014-12-09T14:57:58Z oleo: less-slimey, more-slimey, most-slimey..... 2014-12-09T14:57:59Z oleo: lol 2014-12-09T15:00:42Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T15:01:36Z tvaalen quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T15:01:36Z tvaalen joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:01:52Z wglb: So users of slime: what is your technique for keeping slime repl in a particular window rather than shifting from one to another, e.g., during a reload? 2014-12-09T15:02:05Z stassats: adlai: not easily 2014-12-09T15:02:22Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:02:30Z dlowe: wglb: I use slime-selector, and do C-s r when I want the repl 2014-12-09T15:02:32Z adlai: wglb: cursing, throwing crap at the walls, and then manually rebuilding the layout 2014-12-09T15:03:08Z dlowe: I gave up trying to make my windows stable in emacs years ago 2014-12-09T15:03:08Z billstclair: Slime always starts in the same window, but I use m-x slime-connect, not m-x slime 2014-12-09T15:03:12Z stassats: adlai: you can modify the current name easily 2014-12-09T15:03:19Z stassats: (setf (slime-connection-name) "name") 2014-12-09T15:03:29Z adlai: stassats: perfect, thanks 2014-12-09T15:03:47Z stassats: i'd think about adding a parameter to create-server 2014-12-09T15:03:49Z adlai: well, not perfect, but I can probably find my way from here, and maybe someday a pull request for fancier stuff 2014-12-09T15:03:55Z stassats: could be useful for me too 2014-12-09T15:04:01Z billstclair: So I can start swank with :dont-close t, allowing disconnection and reconnection, so I can have multiple lisps alive, one of which I'm talking to with Slime 2014-12-09T15:04:22Z adlai: I'm guessing stassats and I do the same thing, except talk to multiple lisps at once :P 2014-12-09T15:04:48Z billstclair: Does that work now? Haven't tried it since a few years back, when it was very flaky 2014-12-09T15:04:57Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T15:05:12Z wglb: adlai: Haha. What I have been doing. 2014-12-09T15:05:17Z billstclair: Cool 2014-12-09T15:05:32Z stassats: adlai: i sometimes have multiple different implementations, multiple versions and architectures of the same implementations and remote swank servers running somewhere overseas 2014-12-09T15:05:32Z adlai: "work", yes, although occasionally I C-c C-c into the wrong lisp 2014-12-09T15:05:40Z stassats: at the same time, gets confusing pretty quickly 2014-12-09T15:05:43Z adlai: yes, exactly 2014-12-09T15:05:48Z adlai: supposedly they have medication for this today 2014-12-09T15:06:00Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:06:06Z stassats: adderall? 2014-12-09T15:06:08Z billstclair: Slimeicillin? 2014-12-09T15:06:48Z stassats: and sometimes i connect to slime running on my phone, slime all the things! 2014-12-09T15:09:23Z bobbysmith007 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:09:53Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T15:10:46Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:11:18Z BigSmoke joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:11:42Z BigSmoke left #lisp 2014-12-09T15:15:29Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:16:50Z brent80 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:17:20Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:18:45Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T15:18:58Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:20:15Z brent80 quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-09T15:22:15Z brent80 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:23:15Z wglb: So what i do is bind f7 to slime-switch-to-output-buffer when cursor is in desired window. 2014-12-09T15:23:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T15:23:52Z wglb: For multiple instances, I have 6 servers and bring up an emacs on each one separately. 2014-12-09T15:26:45Z chrisdone joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:28:18Z intinig joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:28:28Z intinig: good morning everyone 2014-12-09T15:28:35Z lawngnode is now known as gf3 2014-12-09T15:28:38Z oleo: morning 2014-12-09T15:29:18Z chrisdone: hey, does anyone in their emacs have a more convenient way to write this? 2014-12-09T15:29:19Z chrisdone: (dad (parents (family person)))? 2014-12-09T15:29:19Z chrisdone: the best i can do is: person C-M-b M-( family SPC C-M-u M-( parents SPC C-M-u M-( dad SPC 2014-12-09T15:29:54Z brent80 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-09T15:30:41Z stassats: paredit: (dad (parentes (family person 2014-12-09T15:31:22Z ggole: Why do you need all the C-M-* stuff? 2014-12-09T15:31:33Z ggole: M-( dad SPC M-( parents etc 2014-12-09T15:31:57Z Shinmera: stassats: Don't even need the spaces! 2014-12-09T15:32:18Z Shinmera: *Don't even need to type the spaces! 2014-12-09T15:32:38Z Shinmera: Before parens that is 2014-12-09T15:32:41Z ggole: Oh yeah, I always forget that 2014-12-09T15:32:54Z ggole: Interestingly, my muscle memory knows to skip the space better than I do... 2014-12-09T15:32:56Z chrisdone: let's assume i'm working from person and incrementally adding things. in a more Algoly family i'd write person.family.parents.dad i.e. one writes in that order 2014-12-09T15:33:18Z H4ns: chrisdone: this is how things are in lisp. 2014-12-09T15:33:30Z H4ns: chrisdone: clojure tries to appease people like you with the -> macro. 2014-12-09T15:33:39Z chrisdone: H4ns: thanks 2014-12-09T15:34:02Z stassats: i would have (dad person) 2014-12-09T15:34:24Z stassats: but what if a person has two fathers? or two mothers? 2014-12-09T15:34:33Z chrisdone: the example is just an example 2014-12-09T15:34:42Z stassats: what if the person is his own gradnpa? 2014-12-09T15:35:20Z splittist: The lisp way has the benefit of starting out with the important thing, the (accessor for) the data you're actually looking for: dad. 2014-12-09T15:35:26Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-09T15:35:34Z splittist: stassats: make sure you have the right value for *print-circle* ... 2014-12-09T15:35:34Z chrisdone: splittist: perhaps i don't know that i want 'dad' 2014-12-09T15:36:22Z Shinmera: Then you should think first before typing code :) 2014-12-09T15:36:23Z splittist: chrisdone: you're still going to be lost in Algolish: 'person.family.parents.umm, I'm not sure...' 2014-12-09T15:36:57Z chrisdone: the reason i ask is i'm pondering type-directed completion where you can discover what you need as you go. i have an experimental keybinding where you can write: 2014-12-09T15:36:58Z chrisdone: person C-! family C-! parents C-! dad yields: 2014-12-09T15:36:58Z chrisdone: person| 2014-12-09T15:36:58Z chrisdone: family| person 2014-12-09T15:37:01Z chrisdone: parents| (family person) 2014-12-09T15:37:04Z chrisdone: dad| (parents (family person)) 2014-12-09T15:37:05Z Shinmera: Thanks 2014-12-09T15:37:20Z chrisdone: this syntactic operation i need regularly at any rate, but it seems like it would be good for completion too 2014-12-09T15:37:23Z splittist: Am I right in thinking that lots of programming in the Algoly oop languages is doodling around at the IDE waiting for intellisense to pop up a plausible accessor/method/... ? 2014-12-09T15:37:27Z stassats: (defmethod dad ((person person)) (dad (parents person))) 2014-12-09T15:37:43Z stassats: (defmethod parents ((person person)) (parents (family person)))) 2014-12-09T15:37:49Z chrisdone: splittist: you never use TAB in emacs to complete a symbol? 2014-12-09T15:38:03Z chrisdone: (or M-/) 2014-12-09T15:38:35Z chrisdone: stassats: i don't control the API. why are you talking about the dummy example as if it's real? it's just a hierarchy 2014-12-09T15:38:52Z ggole: Maybe C-M-f and C-M-b for moving over the expression? I don't think that's any better, really. 2014-12-09T15:39:10Z stassats: how dots will help? ain't no static typing 'ere 2014-12-09T15:39:51Z ggole: Oh, M-1 M-( 2014-12-09T15:39:59Z ggole: Encase the next s-exp 2014-12-09T15:40:14Z stassats: M-1? 2014-12-09T15:40:19Z stassats: that's like, the default? 2014-12-09T15:40:34Z ggole: Nope, try it. 2014-12-09T15:41:04Z stassats: nope, i don't want to 2014-12-09T15:41:05Z ggole: (I don't think I've never used that before.) 2014-12-09T15:41:35Z emlow quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-12-09T15:43:35Z stassats: you're not using paredit, that explains it 2014-12-09T15:43:50Z ggole: Indeed. 2014-12-09T15:43:53Z stassats: in paredit M-1 M-( is the same as M-( 2014-12-09T15:43:57Z stassats: ggole: your loss 2014-12-09T15:44:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T15:44:14Z ggole: I've tried it, and I didn't like it 2014-12-09T15:44:37Z stassats: did you try it properly? like learning all the movements? 2014-12-09T15:44:43Z ggole: It makes sense, but feel uncomfortable. My brain likes having incomplete s-exps there, I guess. 2014-12-09T15:44:51Z stassats: if you don't learn, it's useless 2014-12-09T15:45:10Z stassats: so, you're constantly shuffling parenthesis by hand? 2014-12-09T15:45:30Z stassats: might as well write in javascript at that rate 2014-12-09T15:45:39Z ggole: Of course not, I use the non-paredit sexp stuff all the time. 2014-12-09T15:45:45Z chrisdone left #lisp 2014-12-09T15:46:19Z stassats: paredit has slurping 2014-12-09T15:46:50Z stassats: e.g. (foo (bar |baz) quux zot) ---> (foo (bar |baz quux) zot) 2014-12-09T15:47:06Z stassats: or (foo (bar |baz quux) zot) ---> (foo (bar |baz) quux zot) 2014-12-09T15:47:15Z stassats: etc. 2014-12-09T15:47:20Z ggole: Yeah, that's nicer than yank + friends 2014-12-09T15:47:57Z stassats: also splicing and raising 2014-12-09T15:48:03Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T15:48:09Z stassats: it takes time to learn all of the commands, but then you're flying 2014-12-09T15:48:34Z ggole: Maybe I should give it another go. It's been a while since I last tried and bounced off. 2014-12-09T15:49:14Z H4ns: ggole: i tried again a few days ago and now i find it annoying not to have it anymore. 2014-12-09T15:49:31Z H4ns: (on boxen where i have not updated my .emacs yet) 2014-12-09T15:50:26Z stassats browses C-h m and sees a couple of new commands to absorb 2014-12-09T15:53:17Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T15:57:25Z jmill quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-12-09T16:01:27Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:03:17Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:03:56Z brent80 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:04:14Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:05:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:05:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:06:02Z lavokad joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:06:04Z pjb: - 2014-12-09T16:07:09Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:07:19Z Grue`` is now known as Grue` 2014-12-09T16:10:35Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:16:08Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-09T16:16:25Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:17:18Z pullphinger joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:17:44Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:20:51Z nee quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-12-09T16:22:45Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:24:56Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:26:28Z stassats quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-12-09T16:30:20Z przl joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:31:15Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-09T16:31:23Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:32:25Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:35:15Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-09T16:36:03Z brent80 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-09T16:36:20Z milanj joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:38:09Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:38:30Z harish joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:38:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:42:25Z sol__: so i get the feeling the common lisp is sort of "stale", there haven't been much progress in terms of the standard, the community seems to be small and not growing and i can't find any commercial companies that use it 2014-12-09T16:42:35Z H4ns: sol__: so....? 2014-12-09T16:42:42Z dlowe: sol__: we use it here at Google :D 2014-12-09T16:42:45Z sol__: is it really worth the time investement and better than other dialects of lisp? 2014-12-09T16:42:53Z Shinmera: Is this a flame attempt? 2014-12-09T16:42:57Z sol__: dlowe, seriously? ITA? 2014-12-09T16:43:00Z dlowe: it can be hard to say 2014-12-09T16:43:04Z dlowe: sol__: seriously. 2014-12-09T16:44:01Z sol__: Shinmera, just trying to make up my mind if it's worth the time and effort to develop personal projects in it 2014-12-09T16:44:22Z Shinmera: I started about a year and a half ago and it has been well worth my time 2014-12-09T16:44:24Z Shinmera: but ymmv 2014-12-09T16:44:38Z Shinmera: The standard won't change and everyone knows that. 2014-12-09T16:44:47Z jpanest: <- using it at work (finance) 2014-12-09T16:44:47Z dlowe: sol__: it's worth learning a broad range. 2014-12-09T16:44:47Z Shinmera: We get new people here that want to learn CL every week 2014-12-09T16:44:50Z oGMo: Shinmera: no no, if a language isn't changing every year, clearly something is wrong ;) 2014-12-09T16:44:57Z sol__: see, the thing is that i might have fun but i want some practical benefits like companies looking for cl programmers 2014-12-09T16:45:34Z Shinmera: oGMo: obviously 2014-12-09T16:45:45Z dlowe: a practical benefit is that your actual programming skill will increase, which it won't do if you don't go outside your comfort zone 2014-12-09T16:45:47Z jpanest: I found it practical in reshaping the way I think about some things. 2014-12-09T16:45:50Z Shinmera: Where's my CLtL3 at 2014-12-09T16:45:56Z sol__: jpanest, do you use it as a scrpiting lang or use it for more core infrastructures? 2014-12-09T16:46:18Z oGMo: sol__: no, learning CL only has downsides. you will no longer be happy with other languages, and you will be embarrassed by all the code you've written before, and likely you will start telling the kids to get off your lawn 2014-12-09T16:46:27Z dlowe: anyway, if you need that much convincing, maybe CL is not for you. 2014-12-09T16:46:46Z Shinmera: oGMo: sol__: http://www.secretgeek.net/lisp_truth 2014-12-09T16:47:01Z jpanest: sol__: Mostly the latter. I actually live inside the environ a little also. 2014-12-09T16:47:02Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:47:08Z oGMo: so if you want to by a hip rockstar web coder, avoid CL 2014-12-09T16:47:21Z Shinmera: There's plenty of web coding going on with CL though 2014-12-09T16:47:35Z oGMo: Shinmera: oh, sure 2014-12-09T16:47:38Z Shinmera: But yes, having a wealthy beard and being hip doesn't mix 2014-12-09T16:47:40Z jpanest: I don't think it works with Django or Rails, though. Or whatever is jamming hip now. 2014-12-09T16:47:47Z oGMo: but that JS extension you thought was so cool will no longer be very cool 2014-12-09T16:47:57Z jpanest: Shinmera: beards are *very* in right now 2014-12-09T16:47:58Z gavilancomun quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 34.0/20141125180439]) 2014-12-09T16:48:01Z Shinmera: jpanest: That would be node.js 2014-12-09T16:48:01Z dlowe: Honestly, CL isn't the amazing thing it was when it was created. Now it's a very solid, nice language with lots of history and nice libraries. 2014-12-09T16:48:03Z oGMo: that web framework you thought was amazing will no longer be so shiny 2014-12-09T16:48:11Z Shinmera: jpanest: Not wealthy, big and full ones though. 2014-12-09T16:48:41Z jpanest: Shinmera: haha, fair enough 2014-12-09T16:49:18Z Shinmera: The kinds that, when taken up close, reveal to be an artistically arranged collage of parenthesis 2014-12-09T16:49:36Z oGMo: Shinmera: and, hilarious heh 2014-12-09T16:50:22Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:50:36Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:50:41Z Shinmera: sol__: 'nyway, I find "can I get hired for X" to be a rather bad criteria when looking for something to invest your time in. 2014-12-09T16:51:13Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2014-12-09T16:51:21Z Shinmera: I started with CL because it looked interesting, and interesting it certainly was, and still is. 2014-12-09T16:52:22Z Shinmera returns to hacking 2014-12-09T16:53:01Z lavokad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T16:54:04Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T16:54:22Z brent80_plow joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:54:52Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:54:57Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:55:32Z brent80 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:55:46Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:56:07Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-09T16:57:02Z flaggy quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-09T16:58:05Z brent80 quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-09T17:01:06Z hiroakip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T17:02:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:03:38Z loke_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T17:03:59Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:05:19Z pllx joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:06:49Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-09T17:07:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:08:39Z beach joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:08:47Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-12-09T17:09:35Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:09:40Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:10:34Z beach: pillton: My example of mediocre backtrace generated from a LOOP form prompted me to work on SICL LOOP today. 2014-12-09T17:11:47Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:13:39Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:13:42Z beach: [reading the logs] Those are hilarious answers to sol__! I love it! 2014-12-09T17:13:54Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:17:17Z kalzz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:18:06Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:18:21Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:18:52Z dlowe: all for naught, I think 2014-12-09T17:18:58Z Shinmera: Ah well, we had our fun. 2014-12-09T17:19:05Z Shinmera: So it wasn't entirely pointless. 2014-12-09T17:19:15Z dlowe: CL doesn't appeal to the unadventurous. 2014-12-09T17:19:16Z beach: I agree with both of you. 2014-12-09T17:19:24Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:19:53Z Shinmera: "both" being? 2014-12-09T17:20:10Z beach: dlowe, and Shinmera. 2014-12-09T17:20:18Z Shinmera: Ah. 2014-12-09T17:22:26Z theseb: can i share a secret....i understand defmacro and gensym...i implemented my own genmacro and gensym......i'm leaning towards CL because i don't want to learn hygiene 2014-12-09T17:22:33Z theseb: defmacro* 2014-12-09T17:22:44Z beach: I am using combinatory parsing for SICL LOOP clauses. The disadvantage of combinatory parsing is that by default, it will just tell you "failure" when there is a syntax error. So I am planning to include a set of parsers that will succeed when there is a syntax error. I will obviously include a parser that succeeds when a "clause" starts with a non-symbol and one that succeeds when it starts with a symbol that is not a valid loo 2014-12-09T17:22:44Z beach: keyword. 2014-12-09T17:22:46Z beach: However, I would also like to include parsers that succeed for minor mistakes in particular clauses. For that, I need to know what some typical mistakes are. Does anyone have any favorite mistakes they make? 2014-12-09T17:23:06Z beach: theseb: Thanks for sharing. 2014-12-09T17:23:14Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:23:45Z beach: One of my "favorite" mistake is to say "from from" instead of "for from" 2014-12-09T17:24:17Z theseb: beach: np 2014-12-09T17:24:29Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:24:47Z Grue`: beach: forgetting "do" is by far the most common for me 2014-12-09T17:25:15Z beach: Grue`: Yeah, mine too. It will be caught by the one catching a non-symbol. 2014-12-09T17:25:39Z sol__: what are you talking about, unadventurous, i'm still hanging in there. just hoping the language won't be dead in 5 years time ^^ 2014-12-09T17:26:25Z theseb: sol__: "dead"? srsly? 2014-12-09T17:26:33Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-09T17:26:49Z theseb: sol__: it has survived longer than you've (likely) been alive...what is the worry? 2014-12-09T17:27:18Z beach: sol__: I fully agree with oGMo. If you learn Common Lisp, you will never be happy using any other language. And since there are no Common Lisp jobs, you will either be unemployed or depressed every remaining workday of your life. 2014-12-09T17:28:00Z theseb: beach: um...Xach bangs out C and perl boilerplate with CL 2014-12-09T17:28:16Z theseb: beach: hence pay the electric bill with a CL perl generator 2014-12-09T17:28:18Z theseb: problem solved 2014-12-09T17:28:30Z sol__: i think that people new to lisp will hesitate to go for CL and instead opt out for something like clojure, so no new blood = stagnation = eventually death 2014-12-09T17:29:06Z beach: sol__: Then you will find yourself trying to convince your employer and your friends to use Common Lisp (obviously, because you know it's superior). This will get you fired, or at least, excluded from activities of your colleagues. And your friends won't want to speak to you anymore because they think you are going crazy. 2014-12-09T17:30:17Z beach: sol__: No, you are wrong about that. There are plenty of new people coming in. But they will suffer the consequences I mentioned. 2014-12-09T17:30:25Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:31:37Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:31:50Z Shinmera: For me the loss of friends was luckily of no concern since you cannot go negative. 2014-12-09T17:31:59Z beach: Heh! 2014-12-09T17:33:03Z beach: I deal with that problem by not mentioning Common Lisp to my friends. Instead I just smile and agree that *they* made the right choice. 2014-12-09T17:33:29Z Shinmera: In other news, I'm working on a system testing thing for my dist. http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TVRBdw== 2014-12-09T17:34:13Z Shinmera: (it tests loading the system in a cleanly and purely started lisp impl) 2014-12-09T17:34:36Z beach: Doesn't Xach already do that in Quicklisp? 2014-12-09T17:34:42Z Shinmera: He does yes 2014-12-09T17:34:52Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:34:57Z Shinmera: Or rather, he does it for the quicklisp dist. 2014-12-09T17:35:02Z beach: Right. 2014-12-09T17:35:05Z Shinmera: I'll have to assure buildability for my own dist myself. 2014-12-09T17:35:32Z kalzz joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:35:38Z Shinmera: I'm hoping to also be able to ab/use this for testing multiple implementations at once. 2014-12-09T17:36:04Z beach: You mean testing your software on multiple Common Lisp implementations? 2014-12-09T17:36:08Z ST_Aldini joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:36:12Z Shinmera: yes 2014-12-09T17:36:30Z Shinmera: I'd like to make everything I do work at the very least on SBCL and CCL always. 2014-12-09T17:40:37Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:40:54Z joneshf-laptop_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T17:42:41Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:44:29Z beach: Time to go fix dinner. If anyone has any "favorite" syntax mistakes in LOOP clauses, let met know. I will read the logs. 2014-12-09T17:45:12Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:45:24Z manuel__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T17:48:59Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:50:42Z agumonkey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:50:45Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T17:51:23Z agumonkey joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:51:29Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:53:09Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-09T17:54:14Z splittist: beach: there are the ones about misordering the clauses (what can go before/after what). There is probably a rich vein in mismatched list/vector/hash-table accessors. But missing 'do' would be the most common/ubiquitous of my personal mistakes. 2014-12-09T17:54:27Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:56:46Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:59:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-12-09T17:59:21Z Shinmera: I sometimes confuse WITH with FOR 2014-12-09T18:01:57Z oGMo: yeah anything to do with hashes and package iteration ;) 2014-12-09T18:02:03Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:04:01Z brent80_plow quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-09T18:04:34Z brent80_plow joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:05:13Z Grue`: using several collect's into one variable 2014-12-09T18:05:28Z Guest70392 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:05:44Z Shinmera: The best feature would be if it automatically detected that you're forgetting about a loop feature. 2014-12-09T18:05:45Z Grue`: or using collect into variable that is already defined in with 2014-12-09T18:06:31Z drewc: beach: "Instead I just smile and agree that *they* made the right choice." <--- when my programmer friends ask me about programming languages or even want to start a conversation, I smile and nod and change the topic :) 2014-12-09T18:07:09Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:07:21Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T18:09:00Z shka joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:09:07Z shka: good evening gentelmans 2014-12-09T18:09:12Z shka: and ladies 2014-12-09T18:09:16Z shka: (if any) 2014-12-09T18:09:46Z Shinmera: What about the AIs, you insensitive clod 2014-12-09T18:10:16Z Petit_Dejeuner_: ^ 2014-12-09T18:10:30Z Guest70392: what about cross dressing furry loving interdimensional spiritual beings, you insensitive clod? 2014-12-09T18:10:38Z shka: Shinmera: pardon me, i respect our fellow bots just as well 2014-12-09T18:10:59Z shka: Guest70392: don't push it :P 2014-12-09T18:11:03Z Guest70392: haha! 2014-12-09T18:11:25Z shka: minion: you are not mad, do you? 2014-12-09T18:11:25Z minion: what's up? 2014-12-09T18:11:31Z shka: ;-) 2014-12-09T18:12:03Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:12:09Z drewc thinks that there is no such thing as AI ... once it becomes "I" there is no artificial involved ;) 2014-12-09T18:12:51Z loz1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:16:10Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:16:51Z keen__________ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:17:35Z dotemacs_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-12-09T18:17:37Z keen_________ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:18:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:18:43Z gabriel_laddel: sol__: see the quote that starts "On the lack of ads for “Lisp jobs”" with http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 2014-12-09T18:18:59Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-09T18:19:15Z gabriel_laddel: also, "On conformism". CL is not dead and will not be at any time soon. 2014-12-09T18:19:47Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T18:20:40Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:20:41Z Xach left #lisp 2014-12-09T18:20:50Z shka: you can't kill cl! 2014-12-09T18:21:06Z Shinmera: You can only murder it. 2014-12-09T18:21:24Z White_Flame: You can only make it unbound. 2014-12-09T18:21:38Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR7U1HIhxfA 2014-12-09T18:21:46Z shka: we need common lisp cover 2014-12-09T18:22:37Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:22:58Z shka: gabriel_laddel: the post if quite funny 2014-12-09T18:23:05Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T18:23:11Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:23:12Z shka: i like the catapult part 2014-12-09T18:23:23Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-12-09T18:23:40Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:24:10Z gabriel_laddel: shka: If you've not had a chance to read Naggum before, I highly recommend that you do. see: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/ 2014-12-09T18:24:14Z theseb: drewc: AI is this century's "convert lead into gold meme"....everyone is excited but doubtful it will ever happen 2014-12-09T18:24:25Z gabriel_laddel: shka: I've got a list of favorites if you're interested. 2014-12-09T18:24:45Z White_Flame: theseb: just like it was last century :-P 2014-12-09T18:24:52Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T18:25:17Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:25:32Z drewc: theseb: Yet, this century, we /can/ take lead and turn it into gold. Doubt does not seem to matter for such things, just time. 2014-12-09T18:25:35Z shka: gabriel_laddel: actually why not? 2014-12-09T18:25:40Z shka: mobi maybe? 2014-12-09T18:26:11Z theseb: drewc: but not practically convert lead into gold 2014-12-09T18:26:12Z gabriel_laddel: sorry? mobi? 2014-12-09T18:26:19Z gabriel_laddel: shka: like, the format? 2014-12-09T18:26:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-09T18:26:53Z shka: gabriel_laddel: yeah, i would prefer to read on kindle 2014-12-09T18:27:06Z shka: if you don't have anything other than html, it is ok as well ;] 2014-12-09T18:27:14Z theseb: drewc: you can also make Siri be perfectly full AI by having someone in India answer all the queries but that isn't practical 2014-12-09T18:27:27Z gabriel_laddel: shka: yeah sorry that isn't going to happen. see this: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune-os/master/culture.lisp 2014-12-09T18:27:38Z drewc: theseb: define "practical" please.... it means something different to you than it does to scientists and those of use who program quantas ;) 2014-12-09T18:27:40Z gabriel_laddel: under :urls there is a "Erik Naggum" key 2014-12-09T18:28:11Z gabriel_laddel: That git project is going away in like 2 hours, you may wish to write the text to disk. 2014-12-09T18:28:35Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:28:51Z theseb: drewc: well where is all the cheap gold if it is practical in any sense of the word? why don't we all have gold toilets and frying pans? 2014-12-09T18:29:02Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:29:03Z drewc: theseb: cheap? 2014-12-09T18:29:09Z theseb: yes 2014-12-09T18:29:25Z drewc: theseb: what does that have to do with turning lead into gold? 2014-12-09T18:29:45Z theseb: drewc: it doesn't count if it takes the GNP of a small country to do it! 2014-12-09T18:30:19Z drewc: theseb: sub-atomic physics has little to do with cheapness... why does it not count? 2014-12-09T18:31:14Z drewc: theseb: and "having someone in India answer all the queries" is not artificial... that is using intelligence, not creating it artificially. 2014-12-09T18:32:08Z theseb: drewc: ok you win....i'm skill skeptical AI will ever really happen 2014-12-09T18:32:30Z theseb: drewc: call me crazy but i think your (our) brains are more wonderful and complex than any computer ever will be 2014-12-09T18:32:34Z theseb: still* 2014-12-09T18:32:58Z theseb: drewc: no matter how good CL is 2014-12-09T18:33:16Z drewc: theseb: you need to learn something that I do not care if you know... so you win, you are a winner! 2014-12-09T18:33:16Z eudoxia: i think whole brain emulation and neuromorphic computers will give us AI-like stuff before actual AGI happens 2014-12-09T18:35:16Z drewc: eudoxia: FWIW, I have been working lately with a Quantum Computer ... and so Artificial is way beyond scope ;) 2014-12-09T18:35:16Z theseb: drewc: o_O 2014-12-09T18:35:40Z eudoxia: drewc: why would quantum computers help bring AI 2014-12-09T18:35:47Z theseb: eudoxia: speed of course 2014-12-09T18:35:57Z drewc: eudoxia: I do not know... why? 2014-12-09T18:36:21Z eudoxia: theseb: faster, faster, even if we're going in circles? 2014-12-09T18:36:30Z gabriel_laddel: drewc: where at? 2014-12-09T18:36:35Z gabriel_laddel left #lisp 2014-12-09T18:36:38Z oGMo: ... 2014-12-09T18:36:39Z eudoxia: drewc: well, that's what you seemed to imply with your statement. "if QC can't do it we can't do it" 2014-12-09T18:36:39Z White_Flame: eudoxia: My opinion is the opposite. :) Emulation of the brain mechanism will always be further out than a "high level" behavioral recreation, simply due to computational hardware capabilities 2014-12-09T18:36:59Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:37:14Z Bike: I think you can use AQC for general optimization problems, which you need for, e.g., neural network design. 2014-12-09T18:37:29Z oGMo: theseb: i take it you still believe quantum computers can magically solve things really fast 2014-12-09T18:37:29Z drewc: eudoxia: I started out with "/me thinks that there is no such thing as AI ... once it becomes "I" there is no artificial involved ;)" ... I am not going to change my mind because you are asking a question that I do not agree with. 2014-12-09T18:37:43Z theseb: oGMo: not everything but some things yes i do 2014-12-09T18:37:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-09T18:37:53Z eudoxia: drewc: ok 2014-12-09T18:37:55Z Bike: magic isn't real 2014-12-09T18:37:57Z theseb: oGMo: in principle if they can be made to work 2014-12-09T18:37:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:37:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T18:37:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:38:28Z drewc: gabriel_laddel: It is in Burnaby, the coldest place in the Universe. The Clients are NASA and Google. 2014-12-09T18:38:34Z theseb: oGMo: do you think QC can't do anything really fast? 2014-12-09T18:38:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:39:09Z Bike: well there's all this complexity theory saying it isn't magic. i guess we can just not acknowledge that though. 2014-12-09T18:39:22Z gabriel_laddel: drewc: sorry bad question, with what organization are you affiliated? D-wave? 2014-12-09T18:39:25Z oGMo: theseb: i will believe it when i see proof that QC can actually be faster than classical computation, and even if it can, that doesn't change a whole lot 2014-12-09T18:39:54Z oGMo: the brain isn't a quantum computer, so it's pretty irrelevant to AI 2014-12-09T18:40:16Z Bike: The brain isn't made of CMOS either, but computers are still pretty useful for AI. 2014-12-09T18:40:18Z theseb: oGMo: depends how fast...if QCs can bust internet encryption i'd say it would change a whole lot of things 2014-12-09T18:40:21Z Bike: This is off-topic. Sorry. 2014-12-09T18:40:26Z drewc: gabriel_laddel: is there another? OR: yes, applying for the senior developer position. They use SBCL :) 2014-12-09T18:40:47Z shka: gabriel_laddel: i agree with erik 2014-12-09T18:40:47Z theseb: Bike: make sure to somehow sprinkle mention of CL in between your philosophizing 2014-12-09T18:40:55Z shka: about lack of passionate programmers 2014-12-09T18:40:57Z gabriel_laddel: drewc: some universities have QCs no? 2014-12-09T18:41:04Z shka: drewc: junior maybe? ;] 2014-12-09T18:41:05Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:41:14Z drewc: eudoxia: and where did I say ""if QC can't do it we can't do it" or anything relatively close? :D 2014-12-09T18:41:23Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:41:33Z eudoxia: drewc: "I have been working lately with a Quantum Computer ... and so Artificial is way beyond scope" 2014-12-09T18:42:04Z drewc: eudoxia: and where did I say ""if QC can't do it we can't do it" or anything relatively close? 2014-12-09T18:42:38Z eudoxia: drewc: that's what i interpreted from that. you've been working with a quantum computer and you believe AI is beyond our capacity. 2014-12-09T18:42:47Z eudoxia: or maybe i misread, whatever 2014-12-09T18:43:23Z drewc thinks that there is no such thing as AI ... once it becomes "I" there is no artificial involved ;) 2014-12-09T18:43:48Z oGMo: heh 2014-12-09T18:43:48Z drewc: eudoxia: ^ last time I will say what I started with :) 2014-12-09T18:43:54Z hitecnologys: That's too much off topic. 2014-12-09T18:44:07Z oGMo: ...in CL 2014-12-09T18:44:11Z theseb: hitecnologys: well CL *is* an AI language 2014-12-09T18:44:16Z theseb: historically 2014-12-09T18:44:29Z hitecnologys: theseb: CL is generic purpose language. 2014-12-09T18:44:38Z drewc: gabriel_laddel: that may, or may not ... and even they will say the same thing :) 2014-12-09T18:44:52Z hitecnologys: theseb: LISP might be, but it's not. 2014-12-09T18:45:09Z theseb: i like Lisp 2014-12-09T18:45:16Z theseb: i even like the name 2014-12-09T18:45:19Z theseb: Lisp 2014-12-09T18:45:32Z blahzik quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-09T18:45:49Z hitecnologys: That's irrelevant to both AI and QC, if you're planning on continuing discussion. 2014-12-09T18:46:09Z theseb: hitecnologys: sorry...off topic 2014-12-09T18:46:15Z hitecnologys: And before you go too meta, consider moving it to #lispcafe. 2014-12-09T18:46:20Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:47:06Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:48:54Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:48:59Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:49:12Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T18:49:47Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-09T18:50:48Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:51:54Z corni joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:51:54Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T18:51:54Z corni joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:56:00Z lavokad joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:58:35Z RedEight joined #lisp 2014-12-09T18:59:30Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:00:59Z pjb: jpanest: not a beard: http://tinyurl.com/not-a-beard a beard: http://tinyurl.com/qy7dtyp 2014-12-09T19:01:46Z blahzik__ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:02:54Z shka joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:03:13Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:04:18Z pjb: beach: the key to very good error messages, is to add production rules to the grammar, to issue those error messages. 2014-12-09T19:04:36Z Guest70392 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:04:51Z pjb: At least that's what I've been told by my compiler teacher back in the time. 2014-12-09T19:04:52Z holycow joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:05:15Z holycow is now known as Guest77499 2014-12-09T19:06:49Z dlowe: looks like a nice clean grammar you got there. Shame if something... happened to it. 2014-12-09T19:07:01Z pjb: beach: I guess the only way to find out practical mistakes, would be to instrument an implementation and have real programmers do real work with it. Come to think of it, aren't you in academia, where you have both the opportunity and the mean to do this kind of experiment? 2014-12-09T19:07:17Z pjb: dlowe: exactly :-) LOL 2014-12-09T19:08:06Z pjb: That said with a Lisp DSL, you could write the error correcting rules in a separate form or file even. 2014-12-09T19:09:01Z dlowe: Write a grammar G' which implements grammar G, but for which every input is valid. Productions which are not part of G generate a message. 2014-12-09T19:09:09Z pjb: beach: also some instrumenting of slime might be needed, since some typical typo might get corrected from the font-locking and indenting done by emacs even before hitting COMPILE. 2014-12-09T19:09:48Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:10:19Z pjb: dlowe: put like this it doesn't seem to complex (after all, usual parser generators already do that), but what we want is to issue meaningful error messages, and we can do it by adding rules only the most frequent errors. 2014-12-09T19:10:36Z pjb: +o 2014-12-09T19:11:16Z dlowe: And just "parse errors" on other errors? It's the less frequent errors that need the most help. 2014-12-09T19:11:23Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T19:11:43Z dlowe: Doing it up right means emitting a custom error for every violated expectation 2014-12-09T19:12:04Z pjb: dlowe: on the other hand, the set of terminals being finite, and the consequents of the production rules being also finite, you have only to add a finite number of new rules to add. 2014-12-09T19:13:17Z dlowe: Yeah, I think it's a great way to look at the problem. 2014-12-09T19:14:15Z beach: splittist: Yes, I handle incorrect order by first parsing all the clauses in any order, and then checking the order. 2014-12-09T19:14:20Z pjb: dlowe: well, we still have to be careful. I mean, we may want to use another parsing algorithm, for example, to handle nicely a missed token. (loop for i 0 to 100 do (print i)) you may want to say: missing := between i and 0. 2014-12-09T19:14:47Z pjb: s/:=/:from/ 2014-12-09T19:14:56Z dlowe: haha 2014-12-09T19:15:09Z beach: [reading all the suggestions for LOOP syntax checks] thanks everyone! 2014-12-09T19:15:22Z pjb: compared to (loop for i 0 then (* 2 i) do (print i)). 2014-12-09T19:15:34Z beach: pjb: I considered instrumenting SICL to send me email whenever someone had a syntax error! :) 2014-12-09T19:15:35Z pjb: beach: what about instrumenting and experimenting? 2014-12-09T19:15:58Z beach: pjb: Yes, that's a good one. 2014-12-09T19:15:59Z pjb: I mean, don't you have hordes of students to experiment on? 2014-12-09T19:16:14Z pjb: Perhaps I idealize academia :-) 2014-12-09T19:16:19Z beach: I wouldn't go that far. 2014-12-09T19:16:25Z beach: But I get the picture. Thanks. 2014-12-09T19:17:25Z beach: drewc: That's a good strategy, i.e., changing the subject. 2014-12-09T19:19:28Z drewc: beach: It works.... but as it turns out, even in #lisp I seem to have a different opinion on things .... so I should have changed the subject /back/ to programming languages and in particular CL... live and learn :D 2014-12-09T19:20:19Z beach: pjb: That's exactly what I said I would do, i.e., add production rules to the grammar to catch syntax errors. 2014-12-09T19:20:29Z pjb: beach: that said, if you instrumented slime, I guess you could easily gather a lot of data from CL programmers (we'd have to be able to filter it out before sending you the data, for people working or "sensible" code). 2014-12-09T19:20:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-12-09T19:20:35Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:20:35Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T19:20:35Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:21:12Z drewc: beach: and for LOOP, my big issue is that I use keywords for loop words... which means that if I screw up, :finally is a valid form, and but what comes after it may be executing at the wrong time. 2014-12-09T19:22:04Z pjb: Good catch! :-) 2014-12-09T19:22:39Z drewc: (loop :for foo in bar :collect (progn ... .... :finally (return baz)) <--- whoops 2014-12-09T19:22:40Z beach: drewc: That's a nasty one. 2014-12-09T19:22:47Z lavokad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T19:22:50Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:23:56Z drewc: beach: and not a syntax error at all, just a parenthesis issue... ugh. 2014-12-09T19:24:11Z beach: Yeah. That one is going to be hard to catch. 2014-12-09T19:24:15Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:24:35Z pjb: or: (loop for i from 1 to 10 do (print i) :finaly (terpri)) 2014-12-09T19:24:50Z beach: Heh! Nice! 2014-12-09T19:24:57Z drewc: pjb: that as well yeah 2014-12-09T19:25:29Z drewc: I do not like that DO takes all the forms that are not LOOP forms after it. 2014-12-09T19:25:32Z beach: I see that as an argument against using symbols in the KEYWORD package as LOOP keywords. 2014-12-09T19:25:58Z pjb: Indeed. 2014-12-09T19:26:07Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:26:08Z drewc: beach: I have recently started using normal symbols actually because of that exactly 2014-12-09T19:26:13Z pjb: But there are still advantages to using keywords. 2014-12-09T19:26:17Z Grue`: should just use autocomplete! 2014-12-09T19:26:19Z drewc: 10+ years of using keywords 2014-12-09T19:26:35Z drewc: pjb: highlighting was the big one for me 2014-12-09T19:26:42Z dlowe: I could see that as a call for a warning "You are using a keyword in a progn. Did you mean that?" 2014-12-09T19:27:05Z pjb: any literal object actually. 2014-12-09T19:27:09Z dlowe: yeah 2014-12-09T19:27:10Z drewc: dlowe: style-warning makes sense there yeah 2014-12-09T19:27:22Z pjb: that is not the last expression. 2014-12-09T19:27:30Z beach: Thanks for all the input. Now I need to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family. 2014-12-09T19:27:33Z beach left #lisp 2014-12-09T19:28:12Z drewc: pjb: the issue is symbol-macros for a "literal object" 2014-12-09T19:28:21Z pjb: Ah, right. 2014-12-09T19:28:42Z pjb: Well, no, those are mere symbols that are evaluated as useless variables, or as symbol-macros. 2014-12-09T19:28:48Z drmeister: Is the swank protocol (the defimplementation functions) described anywhere? 2014-12-09T19:28:50Z pjb: Literal objects are strings, numbers, and keywords. 2014-12-09T19:29:05Z pjb: But indeed, there's space for nice style warnings there. 2014-12-09T19:29:11Z dlowe: and anything quoted 2014-12-09T19:29:21Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:29:26Z dlowe: (progn ... '(foo) ...) is bad, too 2014-12-09T19:29:32Z pjb: yep. 2014-12-09T19:29:33Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:29:40Z pjb: vectors, pathnames, etc. 2014-12-09T19:30:04Z drmeister: ivan4th: Ping 2014-12-09T19:30:15Z eudoxia: drmeister: you might want to check the docs and implementation of swank-client 2014-12-09T19:30:28Z eudoxia: that's https://github.com/brown/swank-client btw 2014-12-09T19:30:34Z drewc: yeah, that would actually be a very nice style warning . I like it what I am doing something out of style and I am warned. 2014-12-09T19:30:50Z drewc: s/what/when 2014-12-09T19:31:03Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:31:07Z drewc: (5 Ws aside) 2014-12-09T19:31:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:31:57Z drmeister: swank-client doesn't have any DEFIMPLEMENTATION forms - is it relevant to swank development? 2014-12-09T19:32:16Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:32:21Z Intensity quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T19:32:21Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:32:41Z eudoxia: drmeister: well, it allegedly implements a client for the swank protocol, so i'm p. sure there's got to be something about it there 2014-12-09T19:32:53Z eudoxia: or are you asking, how the impl-specific backends of swank are implemented? 2014-12-09T19:33:07Z drmeister: Yes, the implementation-specifi backends 2014-12-09T19:33:14Z eudoxia: no idea 2014-12-09T19:33:37Z drmeister: Thanks anyway 2014-12-09T19:35:27Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:46:23Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:46:54Z genii joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:47:49Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:48:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:48:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T19:48:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:48:30Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T19:48:50Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:49:22Z wg1024 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T19:53:55Z ivan4th: drmeister: I'm here 2014-12-09T19:54:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T19:55:06Z ivan4th: yes, concerning swank protocol, I think swank-client is perhaps a good source of info. besides *slime-events* of course 2014-12-09T19:56:09Z ivan4th: when I was implementing swank-js, IIRC I looked at some other rudimentary 'alien' swank backend, swank.rb 2014-12-09T19:58:05Z ivan4th: swank-js itself may also give some hints as it implements bare minimum necessary to work with slime... although I didn't test it with latest slime 2014-12-09T19:58:08Z ivan4th: https://github.com/swank-js/swank-js/blob/master/swank-protocol-tests.js 2014-12-09T19:58:56Z ivan4th: https://github.com/swank-js/swank-js/blob/master/swank-handler.js 2014-12-09T19:58:57Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T19:59:06Z ivan4th: and so on 2014-12-09T19:59:52Z CrazyWoods quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T20:00:45Z reb`: drmeister: You can also just ask Swank protocol questions here ... 2014-12-09T20:01:23Z ivan4th: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/swank.rb that's what I started with... The idea to look at non-lisp backends may seem strange, but again, they're the simplest 2014-12-09T20:01:40Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-09T20:02:32Z ivan4th: because of very narrow feature set 2014-12-09T20:03:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:04:05Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T20:04:43Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:05:01Z ivan4th: as of DEFIMPLEMENTATION forms, unfortunately I didn't use them... so maybe what I wrote above isn't of much help, in which case sorry... 2014-12-09T20:07:42Z hardenedapple: 2014-12-09T20:07:49Z hardenedapple: oops 2014-12-09T20:08:28Z pullphinger quit 2014-12-09T20:15:16Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-09T20:18:20Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:19:46Z adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T20:20:09Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:20:31Z Xach joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:20:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:26:33Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:29:16Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-09T20:30:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:30:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-12-09T20:30:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:30:15Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T20:33:53Z rhllor joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:34:09Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T20:34:46Z Kanae joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:35:54Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:37:13Z rhllor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T20:37:19Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:37:43Z nha joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:38:58Z pt1__ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:40:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T20:40:43Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T20:40:45Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: existence lost into permanent failure) 2014-12-09T20:40:50Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:41:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:41:36Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T20:43:41Z pt1__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T20:44:55Z wg1024 quit (Quit: wg1024) 2014-12-09T20:44:57Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-09T20:45:06Z ggole quit 2014-12-09T20:45:44Z wg1024 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:47:40Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-12-09T20:47:57Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:53:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-09T20:56:54Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-12-09T20:57:32Z avawn_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T20:57:54Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-12-09T20:57:54Z avawn joined #lisp 2014-12-09T21:00:14Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:00:19Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-09T21:00:36Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T21:03:58Z ryankarason: any alternatives to PHPBB written in CL? 2014-12-09T21:04:03Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:04:15Z Xach: ryankarason: no 2014-12-09T21:04:36Z ryankarason: right—o. maybe i will have to look in to rolling my own starting from Hunchentoot... 2014-12-09T21:04:39Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-09T21:04:54Z Shinmera: I wrote an imageboard, but that's not really a forum by any means. 2014-12-09T21:04:59Z ryankarason: hehe 2014-12-09T21:05:03Z ryankarason: i could be one of sorts 2014-12-09T21:05:09Z ryankarason: a very very messy forum 2014-12-09T21:05:23Z ryankarason: like work email threads;) 2014-12-09T21:06:04Z ryankarason: any particular reason maybe, why there isn't such a thing? 2014-12-09T21:06:23Z ryankarason: anything that makes CL inherently bad for tackling such an endeavor? 2014-12-09T21:06:31Z Shinmera: It's not a very interesting project compared to the effort involved to do it right. 2014-12-09T21:06:44Z Xach: ryankarason: no. just fewer people in general working on stuff, so for any given piece of software you are less likely to find that someone has already done it. 2014-12-09T21:07:13Z drmeister: reb` ivan4th: Thanks - but these are examples writing code to support the swank communication protocol. I'm asking questions about developing a Common Lisp implementation of swank and all of the DEFIMPLEMENTATION functions. 2014-12-09T21:07:14Z ryankarason: i see. it just feels like a forum is a major web-based thing. i would imagine many people would have already scripted something 2014-12-09T21:07:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T21:07:44Z Xach: ryankarason: I think many Lisp people are older and prefer email. I know I sure do. 2014-12-09T21:07:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:08:02Z Guest77499: what Xach said 2014-12-09T21:08:08Z Guest77499: forums are utter sheit 2014-12-09T21:08:08Z Shinmera: I've come to prefer IRC and twitter. 2014-12-09T21:08:08Z ryankarason: Xach: email has a critical mass of which if fails at IMO 2014-12-09T21:08:28Z ryankarason: so i prefer IRC overall, however i can make several cases for forum usage 2014-12-09T21:08:38Z ryankarason: and at work, i /really/ /really/ /really/ which we didn't use email 2014-12-09T21:08:43Z Xach: ryankarason: I don't think it's bad to have forum software, it would be great if someone were to do it, but I don't think many people are sitting around thinking "i could communicate with my lisp friends better with a web forum" 2014-12-09T21:08:54Z ryankarason: :) 2014-12-09T21:09:07Z Xach: ryankarason: there's a lisp web forum already (using php, i think) and i never visit it because i don't like the format much. but some people use & like it. 2014-12-09T21:09:09Z ryankarason: i suppose i will have to tackle this then 2014-12-09T21:09:21Z dlowe: I feel that the only web forum I need is the github stuff attached to my projects 2014-12-09T21:09:25Z ryankarason: well, there is one project i have been getting myself in to 2014-12-09T21:09:26Z Shinmera: As I said, making a primitive forum software that nobody wants to use can be done in an evening. Getting it right takes a lot of effort for something that's not really rewarding? 2014-12-09T21:09:43Z ryankarason: and many of the people in this project are distributed over the world. so they use IRC and such at different times 2014-12-09T21:09:44Z Grue`: i wrote a forum in CL but never got around to deploying it 2014-12-09T21:09:53Z dlowe: discourse is coming out soon and putting everyone to shame 2014-12-09T21:09:56Z ryankarason: and there is a usecase to have things publicly logged and easily indexable information 2014-12-09T21:09:59Z Grue`: it is bitrotted now 2014-12-09T21:09:59Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-09T21:10:03Z ryankarason: hence why i think a forum is a good idea. 2014-12-09T21:10:29Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T21:10:38Z Shinmera: And yes, discourse is a thing 2014-12-09T21:10:44Z ryankarason: Shinmera: aye makes sense 2014-12-09T21:10:46Z dlowe: there's always comp.lang.lisp if you really want that experience 2014-12-09T21:10:55Z dlowe: may God have mercy on your soul 2014-12-09T21:10:57Z Grue`: i found discourse pretty hard to use from what i saw 2014-12-09T21:10:57Z yrk: ryankarason: I think that forums for technical questions have been generally superseded by stackexchange type sites 2014-12-09T21:11:17Z ryankarason: well, this isn't for lisp discussion; it is actually for discussion of a hardware platform; of which no one probably will run lisp on it but me =P 2014-12-09T21:11:20Z shka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-09T21:11:23Z Grue`: the reply system is nonsensical 2014-12-09T21:11:32Z ryankarason: yrk: hmm. 2014-12-09T21:11:32Z Xach: The Lisp questions on stack overflow get a number of quick, good answers. But they're not all that searchable, unfortunately. 2014-12-09T21:11:53Z ryankarason: stack overflow i don't think quite fits my scenario, but maybe it does 2014-12-09T21:11:55Z Xach: Once you know what to search for you're more than halfway to your answer. 2014-12-09T21:12:04Z ryankarason: Xach: heh 2014-12-09T21:12:41Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:12:46Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:13:59Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-09T21:14:21Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T21:15:20Z theseb: it is easier for me to search the entire internet w/ google than to find something in a programming book 4 feet from me 2014-12-09T21:15:54Z Xach: That should hopefully improve with practice. 2014-12-09T21:16:18Z theseb: i don't think i'm that bad...rather...google is that *good* :) 2014-12-09T21:16:32Z oleo: huehuehuehue 2014-12-09T21:16:45Z oleo: erm 2014-12-09T21:17:28Z Xach: theseb: For most people, I'd think that, too. 2014-12-09T21:31:10Z wg1024 quit (Quit: wg1024) 2014-12-09T21:33:16Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2014-12-09T21:38:27Z rvirding__ is now known as rvirding 2014-12-09T21:42:49Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-09T21:43:50Z mingvs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:47:19Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:47:53Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T21:52:43Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2014-12-09T22:02:06Z isis_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-09T22:02:36Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-09T22:03:17Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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