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2014-12-03T02:13:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-12-03T02:18:44Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2014-12-03T02:18:53Z beach: I guess I should let everyone know what the problem was with this: (defclass sc (standard-class) ()) and then (make-instance 'sc).
2014-12-03T02:19:42Z beach: VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS is called at class initialization.
2014-12-03T02:19:58Z beach: But the error that I got happened when SC was instantiated.
2014-12-03T02:20:17Z beach: So the problem was not having STANDARD-CLASS as a superclass of SC.
2014-12-03T02:20:45Z beach: But having STANDARD-OBJECT as a superclass of the instance of SC.
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2014-12-03T02:22:03Z beach: So, there needs to be a method on VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS, specialized to SC and STANDARD-CLASS (because STANDARD-CLASS is the CLASS-OF STANDARD-OBJECT) that returns T.
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2014-12-03T02:22:42Z Bike: confusing
2014-12-03T02:22:59Z beach: Metaclass stuff always is.
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2014-12-03T02:37:19Z beach: Xach: You were hinting that it is allowed to make derivative work of the dpANS document.  What evidence do you have of that, and where can that document be found?
2014-12-03T02:38:07Z beach: I am asking, because that would be an excellent start for Common Lisp version 2.
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2014-12-03T02:43:04Z loke: beach: Documentation isn't the issue
2014-12-03T02:43:20Z loke: beach: Getting vendors to agree on the changes is.
2014-12-03T02:43:39Z loke: At the very least you need SBCL, CCL, LW and Allegro to agree
2014-12-03T02:43:45Z loke: good luck with that
2014-12-03T02:43:53Z beach: Thanks.
2014-12-03T02:44:00Z loke: NP
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2014-12-03T02:47:27Z drmeister: Hey beach
2014-12-03T02:48:48Z beach: Xach: Never mind.  I think I found what I was looking for.
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2014-12-03T02:58:39Z beach: drmeister: I don't know whether you saw it in the logs, but I started renaming files, and I am exercising the AST generation and AST-to-HIR translation a lot because I am working on the extrinsic HIR compiler.
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2014-12-03T03:08:07Z drmeister: Excellent.
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2014-12-03T03:08:22Z drmeister: I'll download the latest one later tonight and try it out.
2014-12-03T03:08:51Z drmeister: Remember when we were talking about the Movitz multiple entry point scheme?
2014-12-03T03:09:01Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-03T03:09:22Z drmeister: Is the idea you have one "general" entry point and multiple specialized entry points for 0, 1, 2, 3 etc arguments?
2014-12-03T03:09:50Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-03T03:09:52Z drmeister: I'm thinking of calling them invoke, invoke0, invoke1, ... invoke5.
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2014-12-03T03:10:15Z drmeister: So if you have a function with a lambda list (x y &optional z)
2014-12-03T03:10:16Z beach: In fact, I think frodef only used 1, 2, and 3, as special.
2014-12-03T03:10:28Z drmeister: Yeah.
2014-12-03T03:10:49Z drmeister: But he only passed three arguments in registers.  Would you match the number of registers you pass or not?
2014-12-03T03:11:12Z beach: I don't think it matters.
2014-12-03T03:11:20Z beach: As long as the caller and the callee agree.
2014-12-03T03:11:35Z drmeister: But more importantly, the implementation...   If you have a lambda list (x y &optional z)
2014-12-03T03:11:43Z drmeister: invoke0, invoke1 --> error
2014-12-03T03:11:49Z drmeister: invoke2 --> bind x and y
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2014-12-03T03:12:02Z beach: Looks right.
2014-12-03T03:12:06Z drmeister: and bind z to nil.
2014-12-03T03:12:21Z drmeister: invoke3 --> bind x, y and z   invoke4, invoke5 --> error.
2014-12-03T03:12:32Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-03T03:12:42Z beach: It's pretty clever in my opinion.
2014-12-03T03:13:18Z drmeister: Ok, in compiled code it's easy, and I'm pretty sure I can implement it in C++ as well.
2014-12-03T03:15:10Z drmeister: It's time to start integrating Cleavir.  My new calling convention works fine.
2014-12-03T03:15:45Z beach: And if you want to use this scheme with HIR, you would say: invoke2 --> set x and y from arguments and set z-p to nil.  invoke3 --> set x, y, and z from arguments, and set y-p to t.
2014-12-03T03:16:08Z beach: drmeister: Great!  Congratulations!
2014-12-03T03:16:16Z beach: Any performance improvement?
2014-12-03T03:16:42Z drmeister: I was going to ask about that next.  So for invoke2 I don't bind z.
2014-12-03T03:17:02Z beach: I think I specified it so that it is not necessary.
2014-12-03T03:17:09Z beach: But you can set it to NIL if you like.
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2014-12-03T03:18:05Z beach: er, that should be "set z-p to t", not "set y-p to t".
2014-12-03T03:18:23Z drmeister: No, no huge, noticeable performance improvements.   It's more about cleaning up the machinery to prepare it for a new front end.
2014-12-03T03:18:38Z beach: I see.
2014-12-03T03:18:44Z drmeister: I got that.
2014-12-03T03:20:03Z drmeister: I think it's all the heap allocation/garbage collection that is slowing everything down.  If that's taking 99% of the time then speeding up the call/return by a factor of two won't register.
2014-12-03T03:21:16Z beach: True.  Too bad it is so hard to profile the thing to understand where the bottlenecks are.
2014-12-03T03:22:24Z loke: minion help
2014-12-03T03:22:35Z loke: how do I send a message using minion?
2014-12-03T03:22:38Z beach: minion: help
2014-12-03T03:22:38Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-12-03T03:22:51Z drmeister: I don't know if you read www.reddit.com/r/programming but there was an interesting story about a 70% speedup in PHP that was observed when the garbage collector was turned off in a key function.
2014-12-03T03:22:52Z drmeister: https://github.com/composer/composer/commit/ac676f47f7bbc619678a29deae097b6b0710b799
2014-12-03T03:23:40Z loke: drmeister: without reading the article, I'd say that that's being caused by the terribly bad PHP vm implementation
2014-12-03T03:23:42Z beach: drmeister: I didn't read that.  That's pretty interesting.  It suggests that the garbage collector is not very good.
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2014-12-03T03:24:46Z drmeister: They had the same problem.  The garbage collector doesn't show up in their profiling.
2014-12-03T03:25:02Z loke: minion: memo for xach: Is there a way to load a QL system, getting an error whenever the compile emits a warning? I've only found :VERBOSE T, but it's too cluttery and it's easy to miss an accidentally introduced warning.
2014-12-03T03:25:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-12-03T03:30:53Z beach: drmeister: That suggests that the profiler is not very good! :)
2014-12-03T03:31:39Z beach: drmeister: Perhaps you should follow the example from Multics (which I intend to follow in SICL), namely to put in permanent "meters" in the system.
2014-12-03T03:31:43Z drmeister: beach: Regarding the HIR "enter-instruction".  To generate IR for that I would generate code that creates a function with my calling convention and arguments will be in registers and memory.   I'll process those registers and memory and for (x y &optional z) if none of these bindings are captured then I would generate the registers X, Y and Z-P (set to T).
2014-12-03T03:31:43Z drmeister: I don't want to generate a Z register because Cleavir will generate that - correct?
2014-12-03T03:33:26Z drmeister: It would be a waste of time to bind Z to nil and more importantly, wrong because of static single assignment I can only bind a value to the variable Z once.
2014-12-03T03:33:35Z beach: Hold on a sec...
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2014-12-03T03:33:54Z beach: What do you mean by "these bindings are captured"?
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2014-12-03T03:34:40Z drmeister: (defun foo (x y &optional z) #'(lambda (t) (+ x y t)))
2014-12-03T03:34:47Z drmeister: Wait.
2014-12-03T03:34:56Z beach: That is none of your business. :)
2014-12-03T03:35:33Z drmeister: No I mean - I need to read what I just wrote - I may be thinking about this incorrectly.
2014-12-03T03:35:34Z beach: Cleavir will do the escape analysis for you.
2014-12-03T03:37:09Z beach: Normally, Cleavir will turn HIR into MIR and MIR into LIR where the register allocator has done its work.  Then, you will know where the function wants x, y, z, and z-p to be allocated.  You need to put them there.  But, you want to start with HIR and do the rest yourself.  Then you can do whatever you want.
2014-12-03T03:37:22Z drmeister: I thought I had to analyze the HIR to figure out which bindings can go on the stack/registers and which can go on the heap.   Although (contrary to what I said above) I won't put anything in registers directly - I'll let LLVM figure out what can go in registers and what needs to stay on the stack.
2014-12-03T03:38:02Z drmeister: Ah, I'm not being clear.   In LLVM there are "registers" and then there are "machine-registers".
2014-12-03T03:38:10Z beach: drmeister: There is a simple-minded escape analysis phase in Cleavir already.
2014-12-03T03:38:54Z drmeister: In LLVM-IR there are an infinite number of virtual registers of any width.
2014-12-03T03:39:18Z drmeister: They are SSA.
2014-12-03T03:40:15Z beach: As it is, HIR is not in SSA form, so you either have to convert it, or let LLVM do that for you.
2014-12-03T03:40:41Z drmeister: I was going to do that.
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2014-12-03T03:41:04Z drmeister: Should I be using MIR instead?
2014-12-03T03:41:09Z drmeister: Where do you start doing SSA?
2014-12-03T03:41:10Z beach: Watch out, though, you can't use standard algorithms, because variables that escape can not be converted to SSA form.
2014-12-03T03:41:38Z beach: SSA will be done in MIR.
2014-12-03T03:42:14Z beach: So if LLVM requires SSA, what does it do with variables that can not be SSA-ed?
2014-12-03T03:42:40Z beach: I guess you turn them into memory locations.
2014-12-03T03:42:40Z drmeister: We were talking about simple escape analysis where I analyze the HIR and any variables that are used across enclose-instruction(s) would be allocated on the heap.   Do I still need to do that?
2014-12-03T03:43:18Z beach: That analysis is already in Cleavir.  I need to update it though, because it didn't take into account UNWIND instructions.
2014-12-03T03:43:55Z beach: It is 20 lines of code or something like that.
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2014-12-03T03:44:30Z drmeister: Yes, you start them out as memory locations and the mem2reg optimization pass turns it into SSA. The LLVM-IR you write and that you get back after mem2reg differ only in that some alloca instructions are gone and replaced by LLVM-IR registers and PHI nodes are inserted into the LLVM-IR.
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2014-12-03T03:46:17Z beach: So if LLVM does the SSA conversion, there is no need to wait for Cleavir to do it.
2014-12-03T03:46:33Z drmeister: So I generate non-SSA-LLVM-IR using stack storage for all of the variables and run it through mem2reg and it converts it into SSA-LLVM-IR.
2014-12-03T03:46:42Z drmeister: Right.
2014-12-03T03:46:53Z beach: Sounds like you have a plan.
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2014-12-03T03:47:04Z drmeister: A very fuzzy plan at the moment.
2014-12-03T03:47:26Z drmeister: How this is going to be represented in my environments I'm still really fuzzy.
2014-12-03T03:47:33Z drmeister: fuzzy on.
2014-12-03T03:48:00Z beach: The conversion from HIR to MIR will make explicit address calculations and memory accesses, in that it will turn CAR, AREF, etc into such operations.  That conversion will be implementation-dependent of course.
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2014-12-03T03:49:14Z drmeister: How does it do that?   Say with CAR?
2014-12-03T03:49:53Z drmeister: HIR represents CAR as an fdefinition instruction followed by a funcall instruction - correct?
2014-12-03T03:50:04Z beach: A method on (say) HIR-TO-MIR, specialized to CAR-INSTRUCTION turns it into a memory reference with the argument - 1 (for SICL).
2014-12-03T03:50:11Z beach: No.
2014-12-03T03:50:20Z beach: HIR represents CAR as CAR-INSTRUCTION.
2014-12-03T03:50:25Z drmeister: What about AREF?
2014-12-03T03:50:44Z drmeister: Does it have it's own instruction?
2014-12-03T03:50:50Z beach: I forget.  I renamed the file so that you can check.  It is now called aref-related-instructions.listp.
2014-12-03T03:51:07Z beach: There are several of them, according to the specialized array you have.
2014-12-03T03:51:18Z beach: However,
2014-12-03T03:51:37Z beach: Those instructions will only be generated if you use the corresponding special ASTS.
2014-12-03T03:51:56Z beach: and those ASTs will be generated only if you use the Cleavir "primop"s.
2014-12-03T03:52:01Z beach: So normally, you won't see them.
2014-12-03T03:52:03Z beach: But,
2014-12-03T03:52:18Z beach: You can inline HIR code that uses them.
2014-12-03T03:53:06Z drmeister: I'm not following - if I use Cleavir's AST generator - doesn't it just generate these instructions?
2014-12-03T03:53:28Z beach: So in SICL, I will have a definition of the CAR function that does (if (null x) nil (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (error ...))
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2014-12-03T03:54:06Z beach: Then, AST generation will turn cleavir-primop:car into CAR-AST, and AST-to-HIR will turn CAR-AST into CAR-INSTRUCTION.
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2014-12-03T03:55:17Z drmeister: Is this correct?  There are four expressions after the test expression:   (if (null x) nil (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (error ...))
2014-12-03T03:56:00Z beach: er, (if (null x) nil (if (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (error ...)))
2014-12-03T03:56:20Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-12-03T03:56:48Z drmeister: I see - so it's generated by the CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CAR
2014-12-03T03:57:04Z beach: Yes, when the AST conversion sees that, it generates a CAR-AST.
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2014-12-03T03:57:37Z beach: But you won't write CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CAR that in normal code.
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2014-12-03T03:58:15Z beach: So in normal code, you will only see HIR instructions that are now in the file called general-purpose-instructions.lisp.
2014-12-03T03:58:23Z drmeister: Right.  ECL has a similar thing, a primitive, fast CAR that gives undefined behavior if its argument is not a CONS.
2014-12-03T03:58:53Z beach: Well, in SICL there will be no function doing that.
2014-12-03T03:58:55Z drmeister: I could probably deal with this using compiler macros.
2014-12-03T03:59:14Z beach: CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CAR is not a function.  Just a symbol.
2014-12-03T03:59:21Z drmeister: Right - I understand.
2014-12-03T03:59:45Z beach: The right way to deal with it, is to inline some CALL-INSTRUCTIONs.
2014-12-03T04:00:09Z beach: Then, the specialized instructions will appear in HIR and the rest is automatic.
2014-12-03T04:00:10Z drmeister: What are CALL-INSTRUCTIONs?
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2014-12-03T04:00:27Z beach: er, maybe FUNCALL-INSTRUCTION.  I forget.  Function calls.
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2014-12-03T04:01:07Z beach: You replace such an instruction with the body of the HIR code that defines that function, and voila!
2014-12-03T04:01:55Z drmeister: My s-expressions will have stuff like (car x) in it.  I would want that expanded to (if (null x) nil (if (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (error ...)))  wouldn't I?
2014-12-03T04:02:06Z beach: No.
2014-12-03T04:02:30Z drmeister: At some point more than half of my questions will have the answer "yes".  I'm not there yet.
2014-12-03T04:02:34Z beach: You would turn that into HIR code that calls the CAR function.  The CAR function will have that definition in it.
2014-12-03T04:03:19Z beach: Then the HIR code of the CAR function will replace the FUNCALL-INSTRUCTION to the CAR function with the HIR code of the CAR function.
2014-12-03T04:03:31Z drmeister: Where does inlining happen?  In HIR?  MIR?
2014-12-03T04:03:36Z beach: HIR.
2014-12-03T04:04:15Z drmeister: What's wrong with compiler macros?
2014-12-03T04:04:25Z beach: Sure, go ahead.
2014-12-03T04:04:37Z beach: But I haven't finished writing the inlining yet, because it depends on how you make the HIR code for functions available.
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2014-12-03T04:05:01Z drmeister: I mean is it equivalent to inlining in HIR or are there advantages to inlining in HIR?
2014-12-03T04:05:11Z beach: There give the same result.
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2014-12-03T04:05:33Z beach: Inlining is something that must be in there anyway, so writing compiler macros for code that would be inlined anyway, is a waste of time.  But it will work.
2014-12-03T04:05:49Z drmeister: Ok, I was worried that I was missing something.
2014-12-03T04:05:53Z drmeister: Ok, that I can see.
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2014-12-03T04:07:17Z Zhivago: The problem with compiler macros is that they are optionally applied.
2014-12-03T04:07:28Z Zhivago: Which means that they cannot be used to introduce any new semantics.
2014-12-03T04:07:59Z drmeister: But I control if they are optional in my implementation - correct?
2014-12-03T04:08:04Z Zhivago: Sure.
2014-12-03T04:09:26Z drmeister: I see what you mean though in general.
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2014-12-03T04:20:00Z drmeister: beach: Going back to this (corrected example):    (defun foo (x y &optional z) #'(lambda (w) (+ x y w)))
2014-12-03T04:20:33Z drmeister: I'll do the analysis to determine that x and y will escape and so they need to be allocated on the heap.
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2014-12-03T04:22:15Z drmeister: Let me come up with a more interesting example.
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2014-12-03T04:22:51Z drmeister: (defun foo (x y) (values #'(lambda (z) (+ x z)) (+ 10 y)))
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2014-12-03T04:24:45Z drmeister: Ok, so the enter-instruction for FOO will allocate X on the heap and enclose the function from the lambda within an environment that contains X.
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2014-12-03T04:26:56Z drmeister: Y is bound on the stack.   I've got to solve how to represent Y in my environments.   My environments map symbols to indices within vectors of values in activation frames.   I don't need/want that for Y.
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2014-12-03T04:28:33Z drmeister: Y can only be seen within the function that it is defined within.  All I need is something that will map the Y variable to an LLVM-IR Value object.
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2014-12-03T04:29:05Z drmeister must think...
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2014-12-03T04:32:14Z beach: drmeister: You can do that analysis if you want, but Cleavir will do it for you if you prefer.
2014-12-03T04:32:22Z drmeister: This is really the last piece of the puzzle for me.   Once I figure out this I think I can see the way forward.
2014-12-03T04:32:50Z drmeister: beach: Thanks.  I think I will let Cleavir do it.
2014-12-03T04:32:53Z beach: The Cleavir transformation will turn ellipses into hexagons or octagons.
2014-12-03T04:33:09Z beach: ellipses being unclassified lexical variables.
2014-12-03T04:33:24Z beach: hexagons are dynamic lexicals (register or stack)
2014-12-03T04:33:37Z beach: octagons are indefinite lexicals.
2014-12-03T04:33:58Z drmeister: It's how to represent these in my environments that is my current roadblock and whether I need to modify my environments to support this.   They are really designed to run a Common Lisp S-expression walking interpreter for boot-strapping.
2014-12-03T04:34:25Z drmeister: That sounds great - I see the value.
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2014-12-03T04:34:53Z drmeister: There will not be any ellipses once it's done right?  They will all be hexagons or octagons.
2014-12-03T04:34:59Z beach: Correct.
2014-12-03T04:35:16Z beach: The initial transformation will be simple and conservative.
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2014-12-03T04:35:24Z beach: So it is safe, but not very smart.
2014-12-03T04:35:34Z drmeister: Octagons go into my current ValueEnvironment object.    Hexagons - I don't know yet.
2014-12-03T04:35:49Z beach: LLVM registers, maybe?
2014-12-03T04:36:05Z beach: [Just guessing.  I don't know much about the LLVM.]
2014-12-03T04:36:28Z drmeister: Ultimately they will be LLVM alloca instructions which may be transformed into LLVM registers by mem2reg.
2014-12-03T04:37:03Z drmeister: But while I'm generating the LLVM-IR I need to map the variables to LLVM-Value objects.
2014-12-03T04:37:24Z drmeister: Within my lexical environments.
2014-12-03T04:38:55Z drmeister: This may not sound difficult to you.  But I have baggage here that might be causing me trouble.  My environments are designed to run a Common Lisp S-expression walking interpreter.   Lexical variables are stored in linked lists of arrays on the heap.   There is no such thing as a stack.
2014-12-03T04:39:59Z drmeister: I think I need to sleep on this.  Things are always clearer in the morning.
2014-12-03T04:41:02Z beach: True.
2014-12-03T04:41:15Z beach: That's why I prefer working early in the morning.
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2014-12-03T04:42:20Z beach: Now, it's 05:40, and I have been working for 2.5 hours already :)
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2014-12-03T04:43:19Z drmeister: Is Cleavir's environment code all in Code/Cleavir/Environment?
2014-12-03T04:44:21Z mikaelj: There's less people around in the morning.
2014-12-03T04:44:40Z beach: mikaelj: "fewer" :)
2014-12-03T04:44:54Z beach: drmeister: I believe so, yes.
2014-12-03T04:44:56Z mikaelj: beach, less! they are smaller in the morning! ;-) (thanks :-))
2014-12-03T04:45:05Z beach: Heh!
2014-12-03T04:45:42Z drmeister: Your environments are chains of instances of subclasses of the ENTRY class - correct?
2014-12-03T04:45:51Z beach: drmeister: And from our discussion, I now know that I should add some stuff to it, so that HIR can be transmitted through the FUNCTION-INFO instances.
2014-12-03T04:46:10Z beach: drmeister: The Cleavir local environment is, yes.
2014-12-03T04:46:36Z drmeister: HIR transmitted through the FUNCTION-INFO instances - that's for inlining - correct?
2014-12-03T04:46:57Z beach: Correct.
2014-12-03T04:47:17Z drmeister: A gold star for drmeister!    I have a lot more brown stars than gold stars.
2014-12-03T04:47:39Z beach: Congratulations!
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2014-12-03T04:48:26Z beach: Adding HIR to FUNCTION-INFO is yet another proof that it was the right thing to turn the CLtL2 environment functions into functions that return class instances.
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2014-12-03T04:49:15Z drmeister: Yeah - what were they returning before?  It was multiple values right?
2014-12-03T04:50:18Z beach: Yeah.
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2014-12-03T04:51:04Z beach: Plus, now an implementation can subclass those classes to transmit more information if they so please.
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2014-12-03T04:52:33Z drmeister: Pg 207 section 8.5
2014-12-03T04:52:59Z beach: What document?
2014-12-03T04:53:18Z drmeister: Yeah - multiple values with lots of keyword symbols with different meaning.
2014-12-03T04:53:34Z beach: Yes.  Not easy to extend.
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2014-12-03T04:53:46Z drmeister: Steele, Common Lisp the Language 2nd ed.
2014-12-03T04:53:49Z beach: Right.
2014-12-03T04:54:39Z drmeister: I guess returning CLOS objects starts to look like they would be encouraging an implementation?
2014-12-03T04:55:02Z beach: What do you mean?
2014-12-03T04:55:27Z drmeister: You return objects don't you?
2014-12-03T04:55:31Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-03T04:56:14Z drmeister: Right, and your objects have specific slots and their classes inherit from ENTRY and that has a %NEXT slot forming a linked list of entry objects - correct?
2014-12-03T04:56:40Z beach: Correct.
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2014-12-03T04:56:57Z beach: But right then, I was thinking about the .. -INFO classes.
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2014-12-03T04:57:09Z beach: Those are what corresponds to the CLtL2 functions.
2014-12-03T04:57:17Z drmeister: Ah, what do your -INFO classes return again?   I'm looking...
2014-12-03T04:57:38Z beach: The multiple values of CLtL2 :)
2014-12-03T04:58:04Z beach: My interpretation is that at the time, CLOS was very recent and it hadn't been explored very much, so it wasn't thought of as a tool for functionality like this one.
2014-12-03T04:58:21Z drmeister: Oh, you have separate INFO objects.
2014-12-03T04:58:40Z beach: drmeister: Yes, you wrote methods to generate them. :)
2014-12-03T04:58:42Z drmeister: And someone could subclass their classes.   I see.
2014-12-03T04:58:45Z Bike: cltl2 didn't have clos, did it
2014-12-03T04:58:52Z beach: Bike: It did.
2014-12-03T04:59:05Z drmeister: Yeah - it has CLOS, chapter 28.
2014-12-03T04:59:16Z Bike: oh, completely separate from everything else. grand.
2014-12-03T05:00:21Z drmeister: Maybe Steele wasn't comfortable with classes at that point.   I heard that he got better at it - he wrote something called Java, I think.   I heard it's big on classes.
2014-12-03T05:00:54Z drmeister: He sold a lot more books on it.
2014-12-03T05:01:07Z beach: He must have forgotten about multiple inheritance and multiple dispatch over time.
2014-12-03T05:02:28Z beach: Hmm, now I am thinking the CLOSy replacements for the CLtL2 environment protocol might be worth an ELS paper.
2014-12-03T05:02:42Z beach: That means I now have 3 to submit :)
2014-12-03T05:02:48Z drmeister is convinced that most non-lisp languages are developed to sell books on how to write programs that work around their shortcomings.
2014-12-03T05:03:13Z beach: Interesting idea.
2014-12-03T05:03:30Z beach: Certainly coherent with observation, though causality may be wrong.
2014-12-03T05:05:33Z drmeister: Read some books on C++ template programming that have been published through the years.  You will be convinced.  Book sales starting to drop off?   Crank up the language standards committee, steal a few features from Lisp, wrap them in horrible syntax, publish books, cash checks.
2014-12-03T05:06:05Z Zhivago: Well, it's probably more that multiple dispatch and multiple inheritance have significant issues.
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2014-12-03T05:06:23Z Zhivago: And you can implement multiple dispatch by chaining single dispatch.
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2014-12-03T05:11:23Z drmeister: I haven't needed multiple dispatch personally - although it might be happening in the CL source code somewhere.
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2014-12-03T05:12:06Z Zhivago: Gray streams is one big user, iirc.
2014-12-03T05:12:19Z drmeister: Macros though - they are a big deal - they are why Lisp is near perfect.
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2014-12-03T05:15:41Z Zhivago: drmeister: I suspect that macros are also why lisp is unpopular.
2014-12-03T05:16:07Z Zhivago: I think that the fundamental difference can be summed up in terms of 'literary depth'.
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2014-12-03T05:16:37Z Zhivago: Lisp has focused on deep literature while everyone else has been focussing on shallow literature.
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2014-12-03T05:16:55Z Zhivago: You can guess which one scales better.
2014-12-03T05:17:01Z drmeister: And Bjarne Stroustrup is always going on about adding multiple dispatch to C++ - and when he crowbars it in there (probably overloading the meaning of "virtual" a few more times) all the C++ programmers will think it's the bees knees.
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2014-12-03T05:17:49Z Zhivago: Well, see how they go with lambdas first. :)
2014-12-03T05:17:54Z drmeister: Zhivago: That's because most programmers are under 30 and have barely worked their way through their first Java programming guide.  As they mature they will grow tired.  Children playing with children's toys.
2014-12-03T05:18:07Z Zhivago: I don't think that's accurate.
2014-12-03T05:18:23Z Zhivago: Think of the cost involved in understanding a random piece of code, and it may make more sense.
2014-12-03T05:18:42Z drmeister: I did.  I've worked through more than a dozen languages.
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2014-12-03T05:19:37Z Zhivago: Now think of the impact of macros on that cost.
2014-12-03T05:19:55Z Zhivago: The number of languages you've used is irrelevant to this issue.
2014-12-03T05:20:22Z drmeister: What is the issue again?
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2014-12-03T05:23:10Z drmeister: That macros are complicated?  I agree.  They are powerful, expressive tools, and only as complicated as they need to be to be.  Some of us want and need powerful tools.  It wasn't until I found Lisp 3-4 years ago that I discovered what I'd been missing.
2014-12-03T05:23:44Z Zhivago: Think of the cost involved in understanding a random piece of code.
2014-12-03T05:24:30Z Zhivago: Sure, but it's important to understand why they're avoided in situations where code should scale across a large number of engineers.
2014-12-03T05:24:44Z drmeister: What about the cost of writing page after page of for loops and if statements diluting your intent to the point where it's invisible?
2014-12-03T05:24:54Z Zhivago: Which is, unfortunately, the organizations that pay for stuff to get developed.
2014-12-03T05:25:37Z Zhivago: Once you understand that, it's easy to see why lisp is not going to break into those kinds of environment.
2014-12-03T05:25:45Z Zhivago: And then you can stop complaining it about. :)
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2014-12-03T05:30:34Z drmeister: I spend hours every day writing in C++, I'm using every bleeding edge feature they've crowbarred into the language.   As they (C++ standards committee) has tried to approach the power of Common Lisp macros (with C++ template programming) the syntax has become impenetrable.   I am one of a few hundred C++ programmers who are fluent in template
2014-12-03T05:30:34Z drmeister: metaprogramming.
2014-12-03T05:31:39Z drmeister: Have you ever tried to understand complex C++ template code?   Like boost::python?  There is no way you can understand what they are doing.  It's absolutely impenetrable. It took me years of going back and forth between the code and books on C++ template programming to figure it out.
2014-12-03T05:32:00Z drmeister: It's only when I understood Lisp that I got it.
2014-12-03T05:32:34Z Zhivago: Those arguments all ignore the economic cost I mentioned above.
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2014-12-03T05:35:54Z drmeister: Well, I've lost the thread of the argument (if there was one) and my spleen is fully vented - how about yours?
2014-12-03T05:36:11Z Zhivago: I'm not venting.
2014-12-03T05:36:22Z drmeister: Ok, well then we're both happy.
2014-12-03T05:36:50Z Zhivago: Anyhow, if you can manage to think about it clearly now, consider the cost of deep vs. shallow code reading of random pieces of code.
2014-12-03T05:37:13Z Zhivago: Since reading random pieces of code is probably the most significant cost to large organizations.
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2014-12-03T05:44:09Z beach: There!  A new embryonic paper is in the SICL repository.
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2014-12-03T05:52:35Z drmeister: beach: Cool.
2014-12-03T05:53:44Z drmeister: Zhivago: Sorry, I was cleaning the kitchen - sometime I get smooches from my SO when I do that.
2014-12-03T05:57:37Z drmeister: Sure random "deep code" (lots of poorly named, unfamiliar macros?) sounds like it would be harder to read than "shallow code".  But a well named macro can be taught and used to wonderful effect.   I think deep/shallow code is a false dichotomy.
2014-12-03T05:58:25Z drmeister: I'm heading off to bed.  It's 1:00am here and I'm wiped.   Cheers.
2014-12-03T06:01:23Z beach: Good night.
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2014-12-03T10:27:40Z kurakot: what is CL's graphic-char-p in emacs?
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2014-12-03T10:33:34Z loke: kurakot: you probably want to look at the Unicode classes)
2014-12-03T10:34:18Z ggole: [:print:], maybe
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2014-12-03T10:42:42Z loke: Argh, Google used to have this nice feature where you could ban sites from the search results. Whenever I search for anything Emacs related I get spammed by xah grabage
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2014-12-03T10:59:13Z loke: (get-char-code-property ?a 'general-category) will probably give you what you want
2014-12-03T10:59:16Z wasamasa: tell google xah is using forbidden SEO techniques
2014-12-03T10:59:23Z wasamasa: and they'll downrank him for a few months
2014-12-03T10:59:49Z loke: wasamasa: I'm sure he does. How else would his drivel always rank so high?
2014-12-03T11:00:16Z wasamasa: loke: no idea honestly
2014-12-03T11:00:52Z wasamasa: loke: all I know about making a page ranked well revolves around providing content people like to link back to and making it accessible
2014-12-03T11:01:09Z wasamasa: loke: so, perhaps the sad truth is that people other than you and me actually find it helpful
2014-12-03T11:01:38Z loke: wasamasa: yes, I've had people ask me about Emacs and said, "i tried to do it this way because this tite told me to"
2014-12-03T11:01:40Z loke: site
2014-12-03T11:03:02Z loke: Poor Xach. He's sometimes confused with him.
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2014-12-03T12:27:37Z Xach: lucky xach more like!!
2014-12-03T12:27:37Z minion: Xach, memo from loke: Is there a way to load a QL system, getting an error whenever the compile emits a warning? I've only found :VERBOSE T, but it's too cluttery and it's easy to miss an accidentally introduced warning.
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2014-12-03T12:30:23Z Xach: loke: not yet
2014-12-03T12:31:30Z Shinmera: You can use *break-on-signals*, but it'll be annoying.
2014-12-03T12:31:44Z Shinmera: Unless he meant an error print?
2014-12-03T12:33:19Z Xach: With Quicklisp, you either get no warnings at all (the default) or full verbose compilation output, including warnings
2014-12-03T12:33:31Z Xach: I think he wants muted compilation but unmuted warnings
2014-12-03T12:33:36Z Shinmera: Ah.
2014-12-03T12:33:38Z Xach: I want tha ttoo
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2014-12-03T12:37:53Z Xach: Actually, I want something finer, more
2014-12-03T12:38:23Z Xach: i want different behavior depending on whether something is from a dist or not
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2014-12-03T13:01:50Z lg188: Does slime have a shortcut to evaluate a whole file?
2014-12-03T13:02:08Z eudoxia: C-c C-k
2014-12-03T13:02:33Z Xach: That will compile, then load. C-c C-l will load.
2014-12-03T13:03:08Z lg188: mhm
2014-12-03T13:03:12Z lg188: thanks
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2014-12-03T14:31:48Z dlowe: Xach: surely no one is actually using printf
2014-12-03T14:32:08Z dlowe: but I can fix the error.
2014-12-03T14:34:17Z Xach: dlowe: I can remove it if you don't want to be bothered about it again
2014-12-03T14:35:04Z dlowe: doesn't bother me to fix it.
2014-12-03T14:35:28Z dlowe: it'd be cool if the quicklisp build emailed me automatically :D
2014-12-03T14:36:26Z Xach: dlowe: I'm working on better failure reports
2014-12-03T14:36:42Z Xach: I'd like to make a feed for them, too
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2014-12-03T14:37:23Z dlowe: yeah, that'd be even better
2014-12-03T14:38:44Z Shinmera: I wish I had time to write the Github API Now so you could make use of automated tickets or labels, at least.
2014-12-03T14:38:49Z Shinmera: *API client
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2014-12-03T14:39:52Z eudoxia: the github API requires oauth 2.0 though (i think), and South works for oauth 1.0
2014-12-03T14:40:10Z Shinmera: oAuth2 requires a specific client for each API anyway, from what I've learned
2014-12-03T14:40:16Z Shinmera: because the protocol has been so generalised.
2014-12-03T14:40:25Z Shinmera: It's a real pain
2014-12-03T14:41:29Z eudoxia: oauth is horrible
2014-12-03T14:41:42Z Shinmera: And now Google is gonna drop their OpenID system too.
2014-12-03T14:41:45Z Shinmera: Things are bad.
2014-12-03T14:41:59Z eudoxia: what happened to just having an API token huh
2014-12-03T14:42:04Z eudoxia: or maybe json web tokens, those look good
2014-12-03T14:42:33Z Shinmera: OpenID was a good idea, I really don't know why google decided to drop their API for it.
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2014-12-03T14:43:11Z Shinmera: API tokens alone don't work unless you have HTTPS.
2014-12-03T14:43:21Z Shinmera: And also are not a login mechanism
2014-12-03T14:43:24Z Shinmera: but anyway, offtopic
2014-12-03T14:43:56Z lg188: Hi, I'm fairly new to this, but I tried to run this https://volafile.io/get/HoxMP5F0VEUXv/chapter-2.lisp
2014-12-03T14:44:22Z lg188: Problem is that it returns (verb-phrase) as a list?
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2014-12-03T14:48:57Z lg188: I'm copying from an ebook, so it might have typos or some errors with ocr, I guess
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2014-12-03T14:49:44Z eudoxia: isn't it supposed to return a list?
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2014-12-03T14:49:49Z eudoxia: it's been a while since I read the PAIP
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2014-12-03T14:51:05Z lg188: this is what I'm supposed to get: (the ball hit the table)
2014-12-03T14:51:17Z ferada: "verb-phreas" is probably a typo
2014-12-03T14:51:26Z lg188: I get (the ball (verb-phrase))
2014-12-03T14:51:44Z lg188: mhm, let's see
2014-12-03T14:52:13Z eudoxia: there's probably an extraneous apostrophe somewhere
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2014-12-03T14:53:01Z lg188: the typo fixdd it
2014-12-03T14:53:09Z lg188: fixed*
2014-12-03T14:53:14Z lg188: Thanks
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2014-12-03T15:00:44Z bobbysmith007: has anyone used linedit / byobu together?  I keep getting a frozen repl if I try to use arrow keys while holding ctrl and was hoping maybe someone already had the answer
2014-12-03T15:04:36Z lg188: I only use screen
2014-12-03T15:04:44Z lg188: but never heard of linedit
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2014-12-03T15:07:58Z bobbysmith007: byobu is a screen window manager, linedit provides readline like capabilities to at least the sbcl repl
2014-12-03T15:08:49Z bobbysmith007: I did just start without screen, and the ctrl-arrow problems still seem to be there
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2014-12-03T15:11:02Z agumonkey: hello lispers
2014-12-03T15:11:32Z pjb: helloo agumonkey
2014-12-03T15:11:39Z agumonkey: I was looking for documentation about the sbcl compiler (python)
2014-12-03T15:12:25Z pjb: Originally, it was cmu cl compiler.  You may find documentation there.  On the other hand, I believe the compiler has been modified quite a lot in sbcl.
2014-12-03T15:12:38Z agumonkey: I found http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/04/13/starting-to-hack-on-sbcl/ including a .ps paper, but not much
2014-12-03T15:13:03Z Xach: agumonkey: there are some cmucl papers on it. /me checks google
2014-12-03T15:13:30Z agumonkey: pjb: thanks, I was hoping for a simple high level view on their approach, so that may fit.
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2014-12-03T15:14:36Z agumonkey: Xach: thanks too, I'll gtfm but I'll take your links
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2014-12-03T15:16:27Z Xach: aguemonkey: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/ram/pub/lfp.ps is something i had bookmarked
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2014-12-03T15:16:41Z Xach: ram wrote python
2014-12-03T15:16:48Z loke_: Hello xach
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2014-12-03T15:17:08Z Xach: agumonkey: title of that paper: "The Python Compiler for CMU Common Lisp"
2014-12-03T15:17:46Z Xach: loke_: I am brain-boggled by HEAD headers from amazon. i suspect there's a bug. i don't think any client could do what you want.
2014-12-03T15:18:17Z agumonkey: Xach: alright, that's the paper pvk linked in his article. paperrank++
2014-12-03T15:18:18Z loke_: Xach: Well it can, if the request is done to the correct domain (i.e. it works if I preload the redirect cache :-) )
2014-12-03T15:18:44Z loke_: Perhaps they never tested it the way I do, I.e. always accessing to the redirect destination.
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2014-12-03T15:22:31Z Xach: loke_: right, i mean the HEAD request to s3.amazonaws.com doesn't return enough info to prime the cache.
2014-12-03T15:22:38Z Xach: I think it should.
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2014-12-03T15:24:24Z Xach posts to the forum
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2014-12-03T15:26:45Z Xach: oh, forum already has the answer. ok.
2014-12-03T15:26:51Z Xach: fix forthcoming
2014-12-03T15:27:04Z loke_: Xach: What was the answer?
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2014-12-03T15:27:34Z loke_: Xach: Also, did you get my message from minion? I was asking if there is a way to get very clear errors/warnings when loading a system with Quickload.
2014-12-03T15:27:38Z Xach: loke_: you are supposed to interpret 301 as "use the bucket name as part of the domain endpoint"
2014-12-03T15:27:57Z Xach: loke_: i got it. there isn't. i'd like it too.
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2014-12-03T15:28:11Z loke_: Often when I rearrange code, I end up with getting undefined function warnings which can take some time to find since Quickload hides the warnings
2014-12-03T15:29:42Z Xach: I agree. I really want the default to be more verbose output for local projects and less verbose output for quicklisp-provided projects
2014-12-03T15:29:50Z loke_: Xach: exactly
2014-12-03T15:30:18Z loke_: is there a way to achieve this? (ideally, I'd like a compile-error when any warning or note is emitted during compilation of my projects)
2014-12-03T15:30:35Z dlowe: simple matter of programming :)
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2014-12-03T15:31:22Z Xach: loke_: I haven't looked at exactly how to do it.
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2014-12-03T15:31:51Z Xach: loke_: I'm not sure how best to e.g. bind some special depending on system file origin or whatever.
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2014-12-03T15:32:51Z loke_: Wouldn't it be possible to simply mark certain systems are being "important"?
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2014-12-03T15:33:02Z loke_: I wouldn't mind managing such list myself even
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2014-12-03T15:33:46Z loke_: I've ended up with missed errors because of this so often lately (because my project has grown to many files)
2014-12-03T15:33:54Z loke_: It's getting incredibly frutsrating
2014-12-03T15:34:16Z loke_: Help me obi-xach. You're my only hope
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2014-12-03T15:35:19Z Xach: loke_: yes, it would be possible to mark certain systems "important". how to make use of that information during loading, i don't know yet.
2014-12-03T15:35:43Z alejandrozf: attila_lendvai: hi!!
2014-12-03T15:35:47Z loke_: I see
2014-12-03T15:36:19Z Xach: loke_: you can pay me (by proxy) to make it my utmost concern!
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2014-12-03T15:37:49Z loke_: Right. I haven't donated it a while
2014-12-03T15:37:54Z loke_: I'll do so right away
2014-12-03T15:37:57Z Xach: oh, i don't mean donation
2014-12-03T15:38:03Z Xach: i mean literally hiring me to work on it
2014-12-03T15:38:15Z Xach: donations do not influence development, sorry
2014-12-03T15:38:55Z loke_: Xach: I see. So how much do you charge? (the project is a private side-project still (I hope it'll become world-usable), so I can't have my employer pay)
2014-12-03T15:39:13Z Xach: Good question, I don't actually know.
2014-12-03T15:39:18Z Xach gets in touch with bosses
2014-12-03T15:39:26Z loke_: I'll still be donating though, mainly because QL is a life-saver :-)
2014-12-03T15:39:37Z agumonkey: IRC live business negotiations, surprising.
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2014-12-03T15:40:01Z splittist: Xach: are you sure you want to know how much your bosses value you?
2014-12-03T15:40:31Z dlowe: markets are most efficient with perfect information :)
2014-12-03T15:40:33Z Shinmera: If you don't want to know I'd assume you'd probably want to work somewhere else anyway.
2014-12-03T15:40:49Z splittist: I was, of course, thinking it would go to his head (:
2014-12-03T15:40:54Z Shinmera: Or: you have self-esteem issues.
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2014-12-03T15:40:57Z Xach: loke_: can you be specific about the kind of thing you'd like to catch and the :verbose t output that's too cluttered? like in an email?
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2014-12-03T15:41:29Z dlowe: loke_: I just run quickload for an initial build and asdf:load-system while developing
2014-12-03T15:41:41Z loke_: Xach: As for me, it's easy. I want everything that comes from the specific systems. And I want to break into the debugger when it happens.
2014-12-03T15:42:22Z loke_: dlowe: I don't have a problem when developing. The problem happens after a restart of the runtime and I quickload the whole shebang back
2014-12-03T15:42:26Z Xach: loke_: i need to know what "it" means
2014-12-03T15:42:48Z loke_: "it" being any warning, notice, error, everything
2014-12-03T15:43:27Z dlowe: perhaps that stuff could be saved to a file or something.
2014-12-03T15:43:29Z Xach: loke_: with :verbose t, a warning or error will already land you in the debugger
2014-12-03T15:43:37Z loke_: dlowe: SOmetimes I have accidentally moved a macro definition to after its use. The macroexpansion point will now treat it as a function call, but it'll only be shown as a wanring about undefined function.
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2014-12-03T15:43:47Z Xach: loke_: can you be more specific about "notice"?
2014-12-03T15:43:53Z loke_: Xach: Yes, but not compiler-notes and stuff like that
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2014-12-03T15:44:25Z Xach: Is it a warning about an undefined function, or a style-warning?
2014-12-03T15:44:31Z loke_: and warnings most certainly don't land me in the debugger. I have to manually search the compiler output for the word "warning", sorting out the ones that doesn't come from my systems.
2014-12-03T15:44:44Z loke_: Xach: Both. But undefined-function being the most common
2014-12-03T15:45:04Z Xach: loke_: Examples in an email would help me figure out the scope of what you want.
2014-12-03T15:45:13Z Xach: It's not self-evident.
2014-12-03T15:45:16Z loke_: Xach: One of the things I want to be able to do is to have automated test cases fail if there is such output from the quickload
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2014-12-03T15:47:01Z loke_: I just tested with an undefined function. :verbose t didn't throw me into the debugger. It just printed it together with a million other rows of compile output
2014-12-03T15:47:30Z loke_: I definitely want STYLE-WARNING to be an error worthy of stopping the compile/load
2014-12-03T15:47:44Z loke_: But sure, I'll try to do that
2014-12-03T15:47:47Z Xach: So this is above and beyond what you get with normal ASDF and SBCL behavior, sans Quicklisp.
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2014-12-03T15:49:32Z Xach: I think it's a good idea, but it requires work
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2014-12-03T15:57:37Z loke_: Xach: Yeah, I guess
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2014-12-03T15:58:35Z loke_: Although I thought it's possible to pick up using a HANDLER-BIND over the compilation?
2014-12-03T15:59:14Z Xach: that falls under "work"
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2014-12-03T16:01:28Z loke_: Yeah, I guess :-)
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2014-12-03T16:05:10Z dlowe: minion: tell drewc your smug documentation is woefully outdated
2014-12-03T16:05:10Z minion: drewc: what's up?
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2014-12-03T16:05:22Z dlowe: minion: memo for drewc: your smug documentation is woefully outdated
2014-12-03T16:05:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-12-03T16:12:18Z dlowe: in fact, I can't figure out how to get printf working again.
2014-12-03T16:12:35Z dlowe: Xach: feel free to remove printf. I think I'm going to just scrap the whole thing.
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2014-12-03T16:13:25Z Xach: ok
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2014-12-03T16:14:24Z dlowe: I'm not sure smug HEAD belongs in quicklisp either, considering its dubious state.
2014-12-03T16:14:39Z dlowe: but it is, of course, your call.
2014-12-03T16:16:41Z Xach: argh. all my zs3 error URLs are dead. thanks, amazon.
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2014-12-03T17:52:48Z nighthacks: since request function is void what's the best way to return "items" from search-github function ?
2014-12-03T17:52:51Z nighthacks: https://gist.github.com/AmirHooshangi/a61adce405bfb3fe23d7
2014-12-03T17:54:11Z ferada: nighthacks: you might have more luck #emacs
2014-12-03T17:54:14Z ferada: *in
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