2014-11-29T00:00:01Z theseb: help! trying to understand this tiny lisp function called pair. on page 7 of Paul Graham's Roots Of Lisp here:http://www.cse.sc.edu/~mgv/csce531sp07/jmc.pdf
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2014-11-29T00:00:39Z theseb: why used atom? (the car and cdr of lists are never atoms right?   if he wants to check for '() why didn't he use null. instead?)
2014-11-29T00:00:49Z theseb: (yes i know '() is an "atom")
2014-11-29T00:01:15Z theseb: also...when if both branches of cond are false?...isn't that an undefined condition if one of the branches doesn't hit?
2014-11-29T00:01:41Z Bicyclidine: no, it returns nil.
2014-11-29T00:02:11Z Bicyclidine: the atom thing is to check for wrong code like (pair. 'a 'b)
2014-11-29T00:02:57Z theseb: ah error handling
2014-11-29T00:03:20Z theseb: Bicyclidine: oh the last step will be to cons the empty list to the answer
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2014-11-29T00:06:25Z larme: Hi all, how can I test if a package exist, then run a function in the package when the test success while avoid erros when the test failed? find-package cannot do that
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2014-11-29T00:06:53Z larme: even something like (if nil (package-not-exist:run) 1) will signal an error
2014-11-29T00:07:50Z Bicyclidine: larme: (when (find-package package) (funcall (find-symbol "NAME" package) ...))
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2014-11-29T00:14:52Z larme: Bicyclidine: thanks!
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2014-11-29T02:46:33Z katco: is there any way to print a string representation of an entire object to stdout in CL?
2014-11-29T02:47:35Z Bicyclidine: the function "print"?
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2014-11-29T02:48:20Z katco: Bicyclidine: that just gives me #<obj-name {some number}>
2014-11-29T02:48:34Z Bicyclidine: that's a string representation
2014-11-29T02:48:40Z Bicyclidine: you can customize it, if you want. what kind of object is it?
2014-11-29T02:48:50Z katco: "of an entire object", nested types and all
2014-11-29T02:49:13Z katco: it's an instance of a custom class
2014-11-29T02:49:21Z Bicyclidine: define a method on print-object.
2014-11-29T02:49:21Z katco: i don't want to customize it, i'm just debugging
2014-11-29T02:49:33Z _death: clhs describe
2014-11-29T02:49:33Z katco: i just want to dump out what's in memory
2014-11-29T02:49:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2014-11-29T02:49:49Z Bicyclidine: yeah, describe might work then
2014-11-29T02:49:55Z katco: _death: ty
2014-11-29T02:49:58Z katco: Bicyclidine: ty
2014-11-29T02:50:00Z katco: i'll try that out
2014-11-29T02:50:13Z katco: perfect
2014-11-29T02:50:19Z katco: exactly what i wanted :)
2014-11-29T02:51:08Z katco: _death: i don't suppose there's a way to have it recursively call describe on its member-variables?
2014-11-29T02:51:20Z _death: nope.. you can write your own describe though
2014-11-29T02:51:32Z katco: _death: bleh, nah. this is good enough for debugging
2014-11-29T02:51:43Z Bicyclidine: clhs describe-object
2014-11-29T02:51:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_desc_1.htm
2014-11-29T02:51:48Z _death: if you just want your object to be describe-friendly, you could specialize describe-object
2014-11-29T02:51:53Z Bicyclidine: would mostly consist of calling describe on whichever slots you want
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2014-11-29T02:53:23Z _death: katco: why aren't you using slime
2014-11-29T02:53:28Z _death: it has a nice inspector
2014-11-29T02:53:47Z katco: _death: i am, but i am new and ignorant... there's some way to poke around things while it's running?
2014-11-29T02:54:30Z katco: _death: the variables are resident in a function, so i'd have to pause it within to poke at it with the repl
2014-11-29T02:54:39Z _death: yes.. you can right click on the object and choose inspect.. or `C-c I <form> RET'
2014-11-29T02:54:54Z katco: _death: oh... i think i knew that at some point
2014-11-29T02:54:57Z katco: let me try that
2014-11-29T02:56:00Z _death: you can also call INSPECT with an object..
2014-11-29T02:56:05Z katco: it's complaining that it's unbound?
2014-11-29T02:57:30Z _death: do you use quicklisp's slime-helper?
2014-11-29T02:57:51Z _death: if not, maybe you should pass slime-fancy to slime-setup
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2014-11-29T02:57:54Z katco: _death: mmm i don't think so... ql:quickload "s-h"?
2014-11-29T02:58:24Z _death: katco: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper
2014-11-29T02:58:26Z _death: see readme
2014-11-29T02:58:34Z katco: _death: ty, reading
2014-11-29T03:00:53Z katco: _death: so i load that, and then i need an emacs minor mode it looks like? is that in elpa?
2014-11-29T03:01:27Z _death: what do you mean about an emacs minor mode
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2014-11-29T03:02:04Z katco: _death: well it looks like it wants me to load an .el file
2014-11-29T03:02:12Z katco: _death: i'm assuming that's a minor mode definition
2014-11-29T03:02:28Z _death: quickload will install that file
2014-11-29T03:02:52Z katco: _death: oh, ok. so i just have to run it... trying that
2014-11-29T03:03:34Z _death: well, make sure to put those two lines from the readme in your .emacs.. and remove old slime calls
2014-11-29T03:06:40Z _death: btw it appears slime doesn't hook into cl:inspect at the moment, heh
2014-11-29T03:07:23Z katco: _death: hrm. is that why it's still complaining or have i done something wrong?
2014-11-29T03:07:32Z katco: _death: i have a nicer repl prompt now
2014-11-29T03:08:02Z _death: katco: can you be more specific about the complaint
2014-11-29T03:08:39Z katco: _death: sure. "The variable foo is unbound."
2014-11-29T03:08:49Z _death: well, maybe it is unbound :)
2014-11-29T03:08:54Z katco: _death: haha
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2014-11-29T03:08:59Z katco: _death: so i load my package
2014-11-29T03:09:06Z katco: _death: and run the main function, it exits
2014-11-29T03:09:16Z katco: _death: and i try and do the inspect on this variable
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2014-11-29T03:09:30Z katco: _death: it sounds like maybe i have to set a breakpoint somehow in this function
2014-11-29T03:09:33Z katco: _death: yeah?
2014-11-29T03:10:19Z _death: katco: it's a good idea to have functions that return complex objects rather than just build & use them in a single function
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2014-11-29T03:11:01Z katco: _death: this is an experimental main function i'm working through. it's the procedural bit at the top of the call-stack
2014-11-29T03:11:14Z katco: _death: i'm just trying to see if it's doing what i think it is
2014-11-29T03:11:18Z wizzo: if i'm developing on windows should i use ccl or sbcl? normally i use sbcl on mac and linux but the warning on the sbcl site for windows is really putting me off
2014-11-29T03:11:29Z _death: katco: you can always type some (defvar *my-foo*) in the repl, then in the function (setf *my-foo* my-foo) and inspect it after running
2014-11-29T03:11:59Z katco: _death: that's a good idea... does slime not have any kind of breakpoint functionality? elisp is kind of nice in that regard
2014-11-29T03:12:02Z _death: katco: you can use (break) to enter the debugger, from which you can inspect stuff as well
2014-11-29T03:12:24Z katco: _death: oh nice! just in the middle of the function?
2014-11-29T03:12:28Z _death: yes
2014-11-29T03:12:48Z katco: _death: is there a way to tell emacs/slime to inject that silently (e.g. click in the fringe or something)
2014-11-29T03:13:11Z _death: hmm not that I know of..
2014-11-29T03:13:33Z katco: _death: that would be really nice to be able to dynamically insert breaks wherever you clicked
2014-11-29T03:13:43Z katco: _death: and then remove them automatically when you clicked agian
2014-11-29T03:13:52Z _death: I also have (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3))) in my image btw
2014-11-29T03:14:11Z katco: _death: ah. i haven't set anything like that yet
2014-11-29T03:14:23Z katco: _death: are those generally good values for debugging?
2014-11-29T03:14:24Z _death: well, I think that kind of feature doesn't make sense in Lisp
2014-11-29T03:14:28Z katco: slash development?
2014-11-29T03:14:35Z _death: since you can't just stick (break) somewhere and expect it to work
2014-11-29T03:14:44Z katco: _death: oh really?
2014-11-29T03:15:06Z _death: katco: yes, think macros :)
2014-11-29T03:15:33Z katco: _death: lol yeah. i guess it would have to be restricted to not-macros :p
2014-11-29T03:16:05Z _death: it's pretty hard to write a lisp program without using macros :)
2014-11-29T03:16:16Z _death: (a nontrivial one)
2014-11-29T03:16:21Z katco: no i don't mean don't use macros
2014-11-29T03:16:30Z katco: i mean don't allow breaks to be set dynamically in a macro
2014-11-29T03:16:49Z katco: well so i set a break in this function, and it worked (yay!)
2014-11-29T03:16:59Z katco: and then i go to the source, inspect this variable
2014-11-29T03:17:01Z Bicyclidine: the vast majority of lisp code is "in a macro". like, defun is a macro
2014-11-29T03:17:12Z _death: no, think (my-macro ... (break) ...) what can you say about that (break)?
2014-11-29T03:17:27Z _death: not much
2014-11-29T03:17:36Z katco: _death: but it still says the variable is unbound...
2014-11-29T03:17:47Z _death: you need to inspect it from the debugger
2014-11-29T03:17:53Z katco: ohh
2014-11-29T03:18:27Z katco: so drill down into the stack frame, there it is
2014-11-29T03:18:31Z katco: return on it
2014-11-29T03:18:42Z katco: and i get information... hm how do i see its value though
2014-11-29T03:19:20Z _death: you can click with the mouse middle button
2014-11-29T03:19:55Z katco: _death: i know what i did wrong, debug level was too low
2014-11-29T03:20:04Z katco: _death: now i can see the values
2014-11-29T03:20:29Z katco: _death: ahhh this is wonderfu!!
2014-11-29T03:20:38Z katco: _death: thank you so much! :)
2014-11-29T03:20:45Z _death: have fun ;)
2014-11-29T03:20:46Z katco: _death: you have made me a happy newbie lisper
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2014-11-29T03:50:05Z katco: what is the canonical library for working with sockets, e.g. a telnet server?
2014-11-29T03:51:52Z PuercoPop: katco: usocket
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2014-11-29T03:52:26Z katco: PuercoPop: ty!
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2014-11-29T05:24:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-11-29T05:27:04Z rhollor: good night!!
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2014-11-29T05:43:52Z beach: Bootstrapping is both hard and fun.
2014-11-29T05:44:16Z beach: I mean "bootstrapping problems", not the bootstrapping itself.
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2014-11-29T05:50:51Z axion: heya guys, how can i sort a list of alists by value? ((a . 2) (b . 1) (c . 3)) => ((b . 1) (a . 2) (c . 3))
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2014-11-29T05:51:27Z Bicyclidine: axion: :key #'car
2014-11-29T05:51:31Z Bicyclidine: er, cdr
2014-11-29T05:52:35Z drewc: (sort (copy-list '((a . 2) (b . 1))) #'< :key #'cdr)
2014-11-29T05:52:51Z axion: thanks
2014-11-29T05:53:29Z drewc will now pipe up that it should be named CL:NSORT 
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2014-11-29T05:58:30Z rhollor: cdr will return it in list form, which can't be compared
2014-11-29T05:59:07Z rhollor: sorry, nevermind
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2014-11-29T05:59:45Z rhollor: I forgot that it consed to a value other than nil
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2014-11-29T06:37:00Z drmeister: beach: Yes - yes it is.
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2014-11-29T06:38:35Z beach: In the beginning when I started writing SICL, I had this hunch that I could use the full Common Lisp language to write the macros and such, but I wasn't quite sure how it would work out.  Now I do! :)
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2014-11-29T06:42:52Z drmeister: I'm off to bed.  I almost have the new calling convention in place.
2014-11-29T06:43:13Z beach: Congratulations, and good night.
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2014-11-29T07:46:51Z beach: The error message "The value 234 is not of type LIST." has got to be one of the more stupid ones.
2014-11-29T07:47:23Z beach: I mean, does it contain *any* information to even a newbie Common Lisp programmer?
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2014-11-29T08:31:25Z stacksmith: beach, what do you mean?  It says plainly that it's not a list, but a value...
2014-11-29T08:32:01Z beach: Even a newbie programmer knows that 234 is not a list.  So the message contains no information.
2014-11-29T08:32:15Z beach: Lists are values too, by the way.
2014-11-29T08:33:46Z beach: Now, if it had said something like "The function CAR was given the value 234, but it expected a LIST."  then that would have been a different matter.
2014-11-29T08:34:23Z stacksmith: Agreed.
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2014-11-29T08:35:08Z stacksmith: I see what you mean now.
2014-11-29T08:35:27Z beach: Good! :)
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2014-11-29T08:44:32Z Shinmera: What's happening in Lisp land on a Saturday morning?
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2014-11-29T08:47:05Z beach: Shinmera: I am slowly understanding how to accomplish what was a hunch when I started writing SICL, namely how to get away with using the full language to write the macros.
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2014-11-29T08:47:40Z Shinmera: beach: I'm not sure I know what that means, entirely.
2014-11-29T08:47:59Z beach: It's about bootstrapping.
2014-11-29T08:48:30Z Shinmera: That much I read, but what do you mean with "the macros"?
2014-11-29T08:48:31Z beach: Many people bootstrap Common Lisp from some other language, or from an impoverished version of Common Lisp.
2014-11-29T08:49:14Z beach: When I started writing SICL macros such as DEFUN, or LOOP, I kind of knew I could use the full language.
2014-11-29T08:49:14Z Shinmera: Right, I've read a couple of entries about SBCL's efforts in that area.
2014-11-29T08:49:37Z beach: So my LOOP implementation uses CLOS, and yes, LOOP. :)
2014-11-29T08:50:00Z Shinmera: So you're referring to the problem of bridging over between the two worlds, so to speak?
2014-11-29T08:50:26Z beach: Yes, to get a target system running from a host system.
2014-11-29T08:50:37Z beach: And I had a hunch that it would be possible, but I wasn't sure how.
2014-11-29T08:51:22Z beach: For example SBCL plays with the package system, so that when they define Common Lisp macros, they define them in some package other than COMMON-LISP.
2014-11-29T08:51:39Z Shinmera: That would be my first, obvious guess as to how to do it.
2014-11-29T08:51:58Z beach: They have to do it that way because they have only one single global environment.
2014-11-29T08:52:10Z Shinmera: Right.
2014-11-29T08:52:12Z beach: In SICL, I have first-class global environment.
2014-11-29T08:52:30Z Shinmera: Yeah, I think I see where this is going.
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2014-11-29T08:53:02Z beach: So I am setting up an environment that initially contains host functions.  I use that to define macros.  Those macros can then be used to define replacement functions and more macros.
2014-11-29T08:53:57Z Shinmera: Right, so basically you're first copying the host to an environment where you can change it
2014-11-29T08:54:19Z beach: I am copying host *functions* to it.  Not its macros.
2014-11-29T08:54:26Z beach: Not even all host functions.
2014-11-29T08:54:41Z beach: Only the ones that I need in order to execute macro expanders.
2014-11-29T08:54:48Z beach: [basically]
2014-11-29T08:55:04Z Shinmera: Couldn't you also just copy everything, replace things incrementally and then lock the package?
2014-11-29T08:55:12Z beach: I could.
2014-11-29T08:55:20Z Shinmera: But.. I'm guessing that would cause problems?
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2014-11-29T08:56:03Z beach: Probably not.  But some stuff is going to be useless immediately, such as the environment functions like FDEFINITION, SYMBOL-VALUE, etc.
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2014-11-29T08:56:45Z beach: Those functions need to work in the SICL first-class environment from the start.
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2014-11-29T08:57:30Z Shinmera: Right. I'm more thinking that if you copy everything you could test things quicker since you'll always have a more or less complete environment.
2014-11-29T08:57:55Z beach: Maybe.  I will have to think about that.
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2014-11-29T09:00:31Z beach: Initially, I thought I would use the package-renaming trick when bootstrapping CLOS (which I do early on), but it became unmanageable, mainly because I needed two simultaneous versions of some metaobject accessors, working on different representations of the metaobject.
2014-11-29T09:00:59Z Shinmera: That sounds quite painful.
2014-11-29T09:01:50Z beach: It was, but I think first-class global environments will solve the problem.  They will exist in two different environments.  Functions in one environment work on one representation.  Functions in the other environment work on a different representation.
2014-11-29T09:02:25Z beach: Still not trivial to accomplish, but it should be a lot less messy.
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2014-11-29T09:03:14Z Shinmera: I can't quite visualise it yet, but I'm sure I'll get a better understanding as you make progress on it.
2014-11-29T09:03:48Z beach: It is quite understandable that you can't visualize it.  It has taken me a year or so to figure it out.
2014-11-29T09:04:21Z beach: But I'll make sure the method is thoroughly documented.
2014-11-29T09:04:35Z beach: I think I'll submit a paper to ELS2015 about it.
2014-11-29T09:05:10Z Shinmera looks anxiously around himself as he is reminded that the radiance spec is still pretty much inexistent.
2014-11-29T09:06:14Z Shinmera: I really wish I could attend the ELS or ILC, but I think that's not possible with being a student at the moment.
2014-11-29T09:06:45Z beach: 2015 it will be in London, so transportation should be affordable.
2014-11-29T09:07:03Z beach: Ask a professor to finance it for you.
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2014-11-29T09:07:18Z beach: They have grants for that kind of stuff.
2014-11-29T09:07:25Z Shinmera: I'm in my first year of the bachelor, so I'm nowhere near that kind of treatment, haha
2014-11-29T09:07:50Z beach: Oh, well.  In a few years maybe then.
2014-11-29T09:07:56Z Shinmera: Yes, I hope so.
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2014-11-29T09:10:10Z beach: Shinmera: Here is a trick: submit a paper.  If it is accepted, you then go cry to the faculty that you can't afford to go.  They will pay you because it will improve their status in the Shanghai ranking.
2014-11-29T09:10:34Z Shinmera: Heh, I'll keep that in mind.
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2014-11-29T09:10:43Z beach: Plus, you will forever be remembered by the faculty members. :)
2014-11-29T09:10:58Z Shinmera: That could go either way
2014-11-29T09:11:06Z beach: Nah, trust me.
2014-11-29T09:11:46Z Shinmera: Yeah, I'll keep it in mind, thanks
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2014-11-29T09:13:38Z Shinmera: But first I need to study more and code less, I suppose.
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2014-11-29T09:16:18Z beach: At least study more.
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2014-11-29T11:15:45Z momo-reina: Aside from Marco's video on SLIME, are there any other resources on the use of SLDB?
2014-11-29T11:17:41Z beach: momo-reina: The SLIME manual has a chapter on it.
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2014-11-29T11:18:14Z beach: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Debugger.html#Debugger
2014-11-29T11:18:17Z momo-reina: beach: I saw that, but was wondering about observing an actual workflow
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2014-11-29T11:39:37Z Shinmera: Does anyone know of a library that gives me disk space information for a pathname on at least lin/mac/win?
2014-11-29T11:39:45Z Shinmera: I couldn't find anything in uiop at least.
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2014-11-29T14:09:06Z beach: Suppose I have some ASDF system in some directory.  Suppose also that one of the components of the system, when the FASL is loaded, should open a file, where the location of the file is fixed relative to the directory in which the ASDF system is located.  How can I make sure it finds the file, even though the current directory may be different when the system is built?
2014-11-29T14:09:31Z beach: There has got to be an idiom for that.
2014-11-29T14:11:45Z beach: .. involving *LOAD-TRUENAME* or something?
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2014-11-29T14:12:54Z Shinmera: You can get the path to the system definition's directory with asdf:system-source-directory (and paths relative to that with asdf:system-relative-pathname)
2014-11-29T14:14:56Z beach: Where would I call those from?
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2014-11-29T14:15:40Z Shinmera: I'm not sure I entirely understand the difficulty of your problem..
2014-11-29T14:16:02Z Shinmera: What do you mean by "current directory"?
2014-11-29T14:16:09Z beach: ,pwd
2014-11-29T14:16:12Z Shinmera: Ah.
2014-11-29T14:16:29Z Shinmera: ASDF will always keep track of the system location
2014-11-29T14:16:42Z beach: Yes, it does.
2014-11-29T14:16:45Z beach: Luckily.
2014-11-29T14:16:46Z Shinmera: so you can call the above functions at any time that the system definition is known.
2014-11-29T14:17:15Z beach: OK, I'll check them out.  Thanks.
2014-11-29T14:17:34Z Shinmera: So, simply (with-open-file (stream (asdf:system-relative-pathname :my-system "some-file") ..) ..)
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2014-11-29T14:19:27Z beach: Neat!  Thanks.
2014-11-29T14:21:53Z beach: Exactly what I was looking for!  Thanks again.
2014-11-29T14:23:07Z Shinmera: No problem.
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2014-11-29T14:47:30Z faheem_: hi beach. I hear exciting things are happening with Cleavir. In combination with Clasp.
2014-11-29T14:48:59Z beach: faheem_: I am not sure drmeister has really started that part yet.  His idea is to translate Cleavir HIR to LLVM.
2014-11-29T14:49:44Z drmeister: Don't believe everything you hear
2014-11-29T14:49:54Z wasamasa: lol
2014-11-29T14:49:55Z drmeister: That's general advice.  This, what you hear, this you can believe
2014-11-29T14:50:06Z beach: Heh!  I thought you were working on argument passing at the moment.
2014-11-29T14:50:55Z faheem_: beach: well, i don't know the details. i guess it is just a general "exciting things" vibe.
2014-11-29T14:51:03Z drmeister: I'm doing the ground work to incorporate cleavir.   I'm starting with the ENTRY HIR instruction.
2014-11-29T14:51:12Z beach: faheem_: Yeah.  That's good.
2014-11-29T14:52:10Z beach: drmeister: I hope I can stay ahead of you sufficiently that you won't run into too many defects.
2014-11-29T14:52:52Z beach: drmeister: I am currently debugging MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL-INSTRUCTION, a recent addition.
2014-11-29T14:53:20Z drmeister: My argument handling code uses my compilers code generation facility for the init forms for &optional (XXX foo) and &keyword (YYY bar) and only returns XXX-p, YYY-p values if they are asked for.   I need to rewrite it so that it always returns the XXX-p values and doesn't generate code for the init forms.  Cleavir will do that.
2014-11-29T14:53:25Z ananda: anyone experience to program microcontroller with lisp programming language
2014-11-29T14:54:42Z maxpeck: ananda: Look at Arduino Lisp. Compiles to a subset of C++. (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arduinolisp/develop)
2014-11-29T14:55:01Z maxpeck: ananda: Note that my recommendation comes with the caveat that I have heard about it, but not used it. ;-)
2014-11-29T14:55:21Z beach: drmeister: Sounds right.
2014-11-29T14:56:01Z drmeister: Got it!   ( cmp:compile 'foo '(lambda (a0 a1 a2 a3 a4 a5 a6 a7 ) ( bar 1 2 3))) -->
2014-11-29T14:56:14Z drmeister: Those of you with delicate constitutions, cover your eyes!
2014-11-29T14:56:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JYgJacL7
2014-11-29T14:56:28Z beach: Done!
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2014-11-29T14:57:09Z Shinmera: That's some good code soup.
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2014-11-29T14:58:43Z drmeister: Five arguments in variables (check)   passes and receives excess arguments by writing them too/from the multiple-values array on the stack (check) returns result in a multiple-values pointer [pointer,number-of-values] (check)
2014-11-29T14:59:03Z ananda:  thaks for respons <maxpeck> i hear if its more efficient code than C programming is it right ?
2014-11-29T14:59:38Z drmeister: maxpeck: Check out Clasp - it compiles to LLVM-IR.
2014-11-29T14:59:49Z drmeister: Whoops - sorry.
2014-11-29T15:00:00Z drmeister: ananda: Check out Clasp - it compiles to LLVM-IR
2014-11-29T15:00:47Z beach: ananda: It depends on the compiler.  Currently, Clasp does not generate code that is faster than C.
2014-11-29T15:00:50Z drmeister: Five arguments in _registers_ (sigh)
2014-11-29T15:01:04Z alpha-: yummy spaghetti
2014-11-29T15:01:22Z beach: ananda: Or perhaps you are talking about human efficiency during programming?
2014-11-29T15:01:39Z drmeister: Right - not yet.   But other than overhead from boxing/unboxing it will.
2014-11-29T15:01:56Z maxpeck: drmeister: No problem, I hadn't heard of Clasp anyway. :-)
2014-11-29T15:03:21Z drmeister: And you can see the IR and compare it to the IR generated by Clang for similar functions.  We can make it faster.
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2014-11-29T15:03:54Z ggole: drmeister: oh nice. Does it work? Is it any faster?
2014-11-29T15:04:08Z drmeister is pretty excited right now that he pretty much completely rewrote his calling convention in a day.
2014-11-29T15:04:21Z drmeister: Does it work?   Dunno, I haven't tried it.   Trying now.
2014-11-29T15:04:45Z ananda: have you experience to use that drmeister ?
2014-11-29T15:05:26Z ananda: i am intersting to program using LISP instead C
2014-11-29T15:05:30Z drmeister: No, it segfaults when it calls FOO.   That's just nature's way of saying "keep trying".
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2014-11-29T15:06:17Z drmeister: ananda: I'm writing it.  I also am interested in programming in Lisp instead of C/C++.  So I wrote a Lisp that interoperates with C++/C so that I can still use C++/C libraries.
2014-11-29T15:06:24Z beach: ananda: That's good.  The choices of Common Lisp systems for microcontrollers might be a bit limited.
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2014-11-29T15:07:07Z ananda: hmmm.... but i hear some project on military is US use lisp as main
2014-11-29T15:07:41Z maxpeck: ananda: Potentially they are not running their code directly on the bare metal. Likely running on top of Linux or something.
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2014-11-29T15:11:28Z faheem_: beach: doesn't CL use too much memory for microcontrollers?
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2014-11-29T15:13:55Z p_l: faheem_: depends what is your microcontroller...
2014-11-29T15:13:57Z ananda: <drmeister> if i can req maybe you can make that compiler for windows too...
2014-11-29T15:14:36Z p_l: faheem_: also, a lot of old JPL projects used Lisp to generate code for constrained devices (along with having specialized implementations for medium-sized ones)
2014-11-29T15:15:14Z faheem_: p_l: yes, that is true. like the famous mars rover thingy.
2014-11-29T15:15:30Z faheem_: but these days CL seems to use quite a lot of memory
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2014-11-29T15:15:36Z p_l: today, a microcontroller can easily have more resources that ground station machines used to monitor Space Shuttle launch
2014-11-29T15:16:01Z drmeister: ananda: Clasp is very new and pretty rough around the edges.   The only reason I suggest it is because it generates LLVM-IR rather than C or C++ and LLVM-IR is the output of the Clang C++/C compiler.  It cuts out the middle-man C/C++.
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2014-11-29T15:16:12Z p_l: faheem_: because you're looking at implementations geared for "normal" computers, which benefit in their GC design from using lots of *address* space
2014-11-29T15:16:19Z maxpeck: Worth a read: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
2014-11-29T15:16:43Z faheem_: p_l: yes, good point. i don't know about anything but "normal"
2014-11-29T15:17:17Z faheem_: i don't even really know what a micro-controller is. is this something you might stick in a washing machine or suchlike?
2014-11-29T15:17:39Z maxpeck: That sort of thing, yes.
2014-11-29T15:17:50Z |3b|: there are (or at least used to be) CL implementations that ran in 8MB or so, not sure if that qualifies as "microcontroller" yet or not
2014-11-29T15:18:10Z p_l: faheem_: kind of. Think of a CPU+memory + dedicated I/O stuff for easily controlling machinery
2014-11-29T15:18:25Z faheem_: p_l: ok
2014-11-29T15:18:26Z drmeister: ananda: It will be a while before Clasp will compile on Windows.
2014-11-29T15:18:34Z |3b|: i think clisp uses a few MB, but probably also wants a reasonably large OS
2014-11-29T15:18:43Z drmeister: The Clang compiler doesn't support exception handling on Windows.
2014-11-29T15:18:53Z faheem_: there's Debian packaging for Clasp if anyone is interested. requires a patched Boehm though.
2014-11-29T15:19:26Z p_l: that said, micro-controller can go from very simplistic device with <256 bytes of ram to gigabytes of memory, multicore cpu
2014-11-29T15:19:29Z faheem_: is CL in general use on things like micro-controllers?
2014-11-29T15:19:39Z p_l: faheem_: no
2014-11-29T15:19:44Z faheem_: or embedded devices?
2014-11-29T15:19:50Z faheem_: p_l: ok
2014-11-29T15:20:04Z p_l: mind you, there have been recent moves to put JS on micros, CL is not that far behind ;)
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2014-11-29T15:21:30Z |3b| isn't sure you could call CL in "general use" even on desktops :p most CL use is probably on desktops rather than microcontroller/embedded though
2014-11-29T15:22:06Z ananda: how about ECL / gforth as uC compiler ?
2014-11-29T15:22:11Z ananda: is it worth
2014-11-29T15:22:18Z |3b|: writing compilers for smaller microcontrollers in CL is probably more common
2014-11-29T15:22:38Z |3b|: (than running full CL on them i mean)
2014-11-29T15:23:57Z Shinmera: In minor cl things, I finally recreated my primitive file box in CL http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.29-16:21:45.png
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2014-11-29T15:34:13Z p_l: ananda: an approach similar to one taken by mocl could also work
2014-11-29T15:34:15Z beach: Shinmera: What is the license of your code?
2014-11-29T15:34:23Z Shinmera: beach: Artistic 2, usually.
2014-11-29T15:35:11Z beach: I was thinking I might steal some of it at some point for CLIMatis.
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2014-11-29T15:35:59Z Shinmera: I think it should permit that.
2014-11-29T15:36:04Z beach: I think so too.
2014-11-29T15:36:12Z beach: CLIMatis is basically public domain.
2014-11-29T15:36:17Z Shinmera: Otherwise I'll gladly give you permission anyway.
2014-11-29T15:36:31Z beach: Excellent!  I might take you up on that.
2014-11-29T15:37:23Z Shinmera only really chose Artistic because of the linkback and rename clauses that he prefers over MIT.
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2014-11-29T15:41:03Z drmeister: ananda: I'm not aware the ECL and gforth work together in any way.
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2014-11-29T15:49:20Z beach: drmeister: Compiling MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL-AST to HIR seems to work.
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2014-11-29T15:54:39Z ananda: ok thanks
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2014-11-29T16:07:32Z Xach: _death: thanks for the librarystorm!
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2014-11-29T16:13:38Z _death: hehe, just small stuff.. but could be convenient to have them in ql, and also may draw patches
2014-11-29T16:16:04Z Shinmera just realised he hasn't released any libraries this month
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2014-11-29T17:07:08Z ananda: librarystorm! ?
2014-11-29T17:07:47Z theseb: please explain difference between (not ,(first args)) and ,(not (first args)) in a macro.....trying to get a sense of what moving COMMA does
2014-11-29T17:08:17Z |3b|: theseb: the stuff inside the , is evaluated when the enclosing ` is evaluated
2014-11-29T17:08:31Z theseb: |3b|: yes
2014-11-29T17:09:07Z theseb: |3b|: both of those give different replacements...my brain can't quite see it that fast yet
2014-11-29T17:09:14Z |3b|: so if ARGS is a list of variable names as you might see in a macro, (not some-variable-name) would probably be false
2014-11-29T17:09:24Z |3b|: if evaluated during macro expansion
2014-11-29T17:09:28Z theseb: |3b|: my "and" macro was giving different answers w/ comma in diff place!
2014-11-29T17:09:51Z |3b|: if it expanded to (not some-variable-name), it would be evaluated when the result is evaluated at which point it would access the variable instead of the symbol
2014-11-29T17:10:09Z |3b|: different things giving different answers is expected :)
2014-11-29T17:10:10Z beach: theseb: Try macroexpanding it to study the difference.  It is very enlightening.
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2014-11-29T17:11:28Z theseb: beach: ok...yes that is a nice way to debug
2014-11-29T17:11:41Z theseb: beach: do the pros eventually get to point they can "macroexpand" in their minds?
2014-11-29T17:11:50Z theseb: beach: i certainly cannot and hence make mistakes
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2014-11-29T17:12:25Z beach: theseb: Experienced Common Lisp programmers can visualize the result, yes.
2014-11-29T17:12:44Z theseb: beach: nice...the 2 eval steps make mybrain explode atm
2014-11-29T17:12:59Z beach: Things will improve.
2014-11-29T17:13:03Z theseb: :)
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2014-11-29T17:13:55Z slyrus: drmeister: how are things in clasp-land?
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2014-11-29T17:14:29Z slyrus: and when do we get demos of you doing useful computational chemistry stuff with it? :)
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2014-11-29T17:14:58Z beach is campaigning for the original use of "amateur" and "professional", i.e. someone who does things for love vs someone who does things for money.
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2014-11-29T17:16:24Z beach: slyrus: I happen to know that he is trying to get some improvements in performance.  He just changed the calling conventions to that end.  I believe his next step is to continue trying to translate Cleavir HIR to LLVM.
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2014-11-29T17:25:50Z slyrus: cool
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2014-11-29T18:21:50Z puchacz: hi, have we got something like ispell please?
2014-11-29T18:23:23Z beach: I don't think so.
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2014-11-29T18:23:36Z beach: It would be a valuable project though.  Not too hard.
2014-11-29T18:23:55Z beach: Even better if you could include things like possible parts of speech.
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2014-11-29T18:43:24Z drmeister: slyrus: Things are going well.
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2014-11-29T18:43:51Z beach: drmeister: He left.
2014-11-29T18:43:57Z drmeister: Too bad.
2014-11-29T18:44:12Z drmeister: I had some other stuff to ask him.
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2014-11-29T18:45:59Z drmeister: minion: memo for slyrus: Things are going well with Clasp - I hope to have some computational chemistry demos running this winter.  I'd like to talk to you about some other stuff - medicinal chemistry related - I don't have your email.  If you see me could you poke me?
2014-11-29T18:45:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell slyrus when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-11-29T18:53:11Z drmeister: beach: re: "Compiling MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL-AST to HIR seems to work"   Great!   I'll pull the latest Cleavir code and try to generate HIR for every form in Clasps Common Lisp source code and report back.
2014-11-29T18:53:52Z beach: drmeister: I still have not made a decision about how to compile the BIND-AST.
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2014-11-29T18:58:37Z drmeister: What would generate a BIND-AST?
2014-11-29T18:58:53Z beach: A LET of a special variable.
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2014-11-29T19:00:36Z drmeister: What are the options?
2014-11-29T19:00:41Z beach: In any case, I'll leave it up to the implementation by adding an IMPLEMENTATION parameter to the conversion.
2014-11-29T19:00:50Z beach: By default, the choices are:
2014-11-29T19:01:02Z beach: 1. Either introduce a BIND instruction.
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2014-11-29T19:01:25Z beach: 2. Or turn in into a call to CALL-WITH-BINDING.
2014-11-29T19:01:50Z beach: I prefer number 2, but I can't decide what package that function would be in.
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2014-11-29T19:04:06Z drmeister: A BIND instruction would mean - save the current value, set it to a new value and when the scope ends restore the previous value?
2014-11-29T19:04:08Z beach: I don't like number 1, because then I would have a second instruction (other than ENCLOSE) that takes another instruction as its "input".
2014-11-29T19:04:27Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, pretty much.
2014-11-29T19:04:52Z drmeister: Why would it take another instruction as it's input - is that the code to restore the previous value?
2014-11-29T19:05:10Z beach: drmeister: No, the code to execute while the binding is in effect.
2014-11-29T19:05:27Z beach: I could make that a function, so it would be a normal input.
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2014-11-29T19:06:45Z beach: But if I do that, it would be very close to a FUNCALL-INSTRUCTION, hence suggestion number 2.
2014-11-29T19:07:58Z drmeister: beach: Oh, the code to execute while the binding is in effect - that makes more sense.
2014-11-29T19:08:08Z drmeister: And the CALL-WITH-BINDING, how would that work?
2014-11-29T19:09:09Z beach: Call that function with a thunk to execute while the binding is in effect.  that function takes the variable name, the value, and the thunk as arguments.
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2014-11-29T19:10:19Z drmeister: Either way one generates another function that evaluates while the binding is in effect?
2014-11-29T19:11:14Z beach: Pretty much.  With the BIND instruction, that would be less explicit, but pretty much the only choice.
2014-11-29T19:11:27Z drmeister: I'm thinking how I would implement both of those instructions.  I would generate an LLVM function in each case, I think.
2014-11-29T19:11:46Z beach: Yeah.  Not many alternatives.
2014-11-29T19:12:09Z beach: So I think I'll go for number 2.  I just have to decide the package of the function.
2014-11-29T19:12:30Z beach: ... probably the PRIMOP package that contains CONS-CAR etc.
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2014-11-29T19:15:20Z beach: Either way, it can be overridden by an implementation-specific method.
2014-11-29T19:15:49Z drmeister: I think I do it a different way - it's been a while though.    I keep track in my environment what special variables have been bound and generate code when leaving the scope of the special variable binding to restore the old value.  I also put that code in an exception cleanup clause in case an exception is thrown and the stack unwinds.
2014-11-29T19:16:24Z beach: Yeah, that's one way.
2014-11-29T19:16:46Z drmeister: Ok - I was half expecting you to tell me what was horribly wrong with that. :-)
2014-11-29T19:17:34Z beach: I can't do that, given my feeble knowledge of C++ and LLVM.
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2014-11-29T19:18:59Z drmeister: I have to make sure to unwind the environment every which way the scope can be left (GO, RETURN-FROM, THROW).  Currently I use exceptions for all of them but if the GO destination is in the same function as the GO instruction and it leaves the scope of a special binding then I'd have to ensure that the environment cleanup code is evaluated.
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2014-11-29T19:19:40Z beach: Of course.
2014-11-29T19:19:50Z beach: And you use shallow binding too, right.
2014-11-29T19:19:54Z beach: ?
2014-11-29T19:20:23Z drmeister: Uh...
2014-11-29T19:20:50Z drmeister: Shallow binding meaning I modify the value cell of my global symbol?  And that I have value cells in my symbols?
2014-11-29T19:20:57Z drmeister: If so - yes.
2014-11-29T19:21:36Z beach: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShallowBinding
2014-11-29T19:21:55Z beach: It's a technical term.
2014-11-29T19:22:43Z beach: ... which we have already figured out you need to change when you want threads.
2014-11-29T19:23:01Z drmeister: Yes.
2014-11-29T19:23:08Z drmeister: And yes.
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2014-11-29T19:28:49Z beach: In SICL I am planning to use deep binding.  I think the dynamic runtime environment is not going to be very deep.  Each stack frame points to its dynamic environment.  Undoing a binding is just a matter of restoring the dynamic runtime environment.
2014-11-29T19:29:22Z beach: Furthermore, accessing a value in the dynamic runtime environment is going to be fairly infrequent.
2014-11-29T19:30:30Z drmeister: Can you help me understand your deep binding approach.   How do you get the special value of a symbol?
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2014-11-29T19:31:19Z beach: Traverse the dynamic runtime environment for an entry that binds a special variable.  If none is found, get the value from the global environment.
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2014-11-29T19:31:45Z beach: Bind a variable: add an entry to the dynamic runtime environment.
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2014-11-29T19:32:53Z drmeister: So the dynamic runtime environment could be as simple as an a-list of (symbol value) pairs?
2014-11-29T19:32:55Z |3b|: beach: are you sure the printer control variables won't make it deeper/more common than you think?
2014-11-29T19:33:03Z beach: drmeister: Yes.
2014-11-29T19:33:25Z beach: |3b|: No, I am not sure.
2014-11-29T19:33:53Z beach: |3b|: Do you have statistics?
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2014-11-29T19:34:31Z |3b|: no, just thinking that each layer of with-standard-io-syntax is 20 or bindings
2014-11-29T19:34:37Z beach: I'll stick in some meters to check.
2014-11-29T19:34:50Z |3b|: and that printing looks at a lot of them
2014-11-29T19:34:58Z beach: I see.
2014-11-29T19:35:24Z drmeister: You raise a good point.
2014-11-29T19:35:28Z beach: I am not worried though because I still think accessing or setting the value of a special variable is going to be fairly rare.
2014-11-29T19:35:53Z rtoym: Crufty old maxima has tons of special vars everywhere.
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2014-11-29T19:36:02Z |3b| supposes it depends on how the printer is implemented
2014-11-29T19:36:35Z beach: rtoym: And you think special variable access is going to be a dominant part of computation time of Maxima?
2014-11-29T19:36:47Z drmeister: Could you not take any CL environment and iterate through all symbols and figure out which are special?
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2014-11-29T19:37:15Z |3b|: drmeister: not portably from what i remember (or at least not easily, i guess you could bind them and see how they behave)
2014-11-29T19:37:25Z beach: drmeister: What matters is how frequently they are bound.
2014-11-29T19:37:27Z |3b|: and that still wouldn't catch locally special bindings
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2014-11-29T19:37:52Z rtoym: beach: I don't know, but there are lots of them and many are used in the heart of some core routines.  They're probably most read, and infrequently bound.
2014-11-29T19:38:02Z |3b|: or gensymmed specials
2014-11-29T19:38:36Z beach: rtoym: Furthermore, they can be cached in registers unless rebound.
2014-11-29T19:39:31Z |3b| wonders how a per-thread cache would do
2014-11-29T19:39:48Z |3b|: just completely dump it on any binding/unbinding of a special
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2014-11-29T19:40:23Z rtoym: beach: Yes. If there are enough registers and if the compiler is smart enough.
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2014-11-29T19:44:39Z beach: Interesting discussion, but it's late for me.
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2014-11-29T21:05:54Z msmith: Hi all, so I'm migrating from sbcl 1.0.55 to 1.1.14 and when I try to compile my project I get a slot definition error in on of my condition objects.  the exact error is  "initialization argument :NAME was constant: :INITARG".  I was wondering if anyone was aware of any changes to condition classes in this newer version of sbcl
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2014-11-29T21:17:23Z Krystof: msmith: I am aware
2014-11-29T21:17:32Z Krystof: what that means is that your slot name is a `constant variable'
2014-11-29T21:17:42Z Krystof: you have named your condition class slot `:initarg'
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2014-11-29T21:24:43Z msmith: Krystof:  ok, thanks.  It was a quick fix.  The older version was catching it
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2014-11-29T21:36:07Z msmith: Krystof: wasn't
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2014-11-29T22:42:35Z theseb: anyone have a brainless newb example why apply would be useful in addition to eval?
2014-11-29T22:42:44Z theseb: apply seems superfluous to me
2014-11-29T22:43:55Z Shinmera: Why does + accept many arguments when two would suffice?
2014-11-29T22:44:14Z theseb: Shinmera: convenience?
2014-11-29T22:44:41Z theseb: so you don't have to do (+ 1 (+ 2 (+ 3 4)))
2014-11-29T22:44:49Z Shinmera: Yeah, and now what about apply?
2014-11-29T22:45:02Z theseb: Shinmera: are you saying apply is just for convenience too?
2014-11-29T22:45:06Z Shinmera: Not just
2014-11-29T22:45:09Z Shinmera: but it's one reason.
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2014-11-29T22:45:35Z theseb: Shinmera: is there a way to simulate what apply does some how like i did above for +?
2014-11-29T22:46:35Z theseb: Shinmera: if we could code apply in lisp analagously to how we can code eval in lisp that'd be cool
2014-11-29T22:46:47Z Shinmera: You cannot
2014-11-29T22:46:58Z theseb: Shinmera: wait..you can ONLY code eval?!?!?!?
2014-11-29T22:47:03Z theseb: what the fruitcake
2014-11-29T22:47:31Z Shinmera: I'm a bit vary on the exact details, but if I recall correctly, apply is one of the basic pieces you need.
2014-11-29T22:48:26Z theseb: Shinmera: wait...something like this..(define (apply x y) (eval (x y)))
2014-11-29T22:48:36Z theseb: errr well you'd need a macro to clean that up
2014-11-29T22:48:46Z theseb: looks like you can do it with eval and a macro system
2014-11-29T22:48:59Z theseb: since apply is basically "just an eval in disguise"
2014-11-29T22:49:28Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what makes you believe it is
2014-11-29T22:49:44Z theseb: (defmacro (apply f args) '(eval (,f ,@args)))
2014-11-29T22:49:50Z theseb: Shinmera: how about that?
2014-11-29T22:50:40Z Shinmera: That's neither a valid cl form, nor a valid definition of apply.
2014-11-29T22:50:45Z theseb: Shinmera: by "eval in disguise" i just meant you can implement apply with eval if that is correct
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2014-11-29T22:50:56Z scoofy: theseb, what's the purpose of 'apply' then, if it's in fact 'disguised eval' ?
2014-11-29T22:50:59Z theseb: Shinmera: well my CL skills aren't that good but is there at least HOPE it can be fixed?
2014-11-29T22:51:12Z theseb: scoofy: THAT'S MY ORIG QUESTION!
2014-11-29T22:51:16Z theseb: :)
2014-11-29T22:51:18Z scoofy: good question :)
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2014-11-29T22:51:26Z scoofy sits back and brings some popcorn
2014-11-29T22:51:34Z theseb: <theseb> apply seems superfluous to me
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2014-11-29T22:51:55Z scoofy: some guys say the same about set! vs. define (though don't know if that applies to CL)
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2014-11-29T22:54:44Z Shinmera: Well done
2014-11-29T22:54:51Z Shinmera: Whoops, wrong chat, sorry
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