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2014-11-27T00:18:19Z Xach: _death: i think of it as a good gateway to participating in hacking, rather than just consuming
2014-11-27T00:19:44Z Xach: i'd love to grease the wheels as much as possible
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2014-11-27T00:34:35Z dim: also in CL I love to be able to do M-. and hack away
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2014-11-27T00:35:09Z _death: Xach: I agree
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2014-11-27T01:27:11Z milesrout: block/return-from are basically lexically-scoped, while catch/throw are dynamically-scoped? ...right?
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2014-11-27T01:27:28Z milesrout: apart from that they work basically the same?
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2014-11-27T01:34:26Z Bicyclidine: milesrout: yeah
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2014-11-27T01:34:51Z Bicyclidine: milesrout: also need to remember that catch/throw evaluate their tags, which block can't do for obvious reasons
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2014-11-27T02:15:36Z milesrout: Bicyclidine, it can't because which block it returns from is decided at "compile-time"?
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2014-11-27T02:16:36Z milesrout: also it seems like block/return-from/tagbody/go/catch/throw don't ALL need to be special forms. Surely block/return-from could be implemented in terms of tagbody/go?
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2014-11-27T02:17:23Z milesrout: I assume that they could just about all be implemented in terms of continuations?
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2014-11-27T02:30:45Z Bicyclidine: milesrout: yes to all three
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2014-11-27T02:31:04Z Bicyclidine: milesrout: they're 'special operators' so the implementation can deal with them specially instead of having to use a convoluted and inefficient macroexpansion
2014-11-27T02:32:08Z Bicyclidine: milesrout: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html has each of the three implemented in terms of the others, except for tagbody in terms of block
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2014-11-27T02:41:43Z Zhivago: I think that is incorrect.
2014-11-27T02:42:01Z Bicyclidine: could be more specific about what is incorrect
2014-11-27T02:42:05Z Bicyclidine: could you*
2014-11-27T02:42:23Z Zhivago: The only interesting part of being a special operator is for code-walkers.
2014-11-27T02:42:43Z Zhivago: The special operators are the fundamental units that they operate on, regardless of if they are implemented as macros or not.
2014-11-27T02:43:21Z Zhivago: So it allows portable code-walkers to be produced.
2014-11-27T02:44:21Z Zhivago: An implementation can always deal with them using a simple and efficient macro-expansion to some local primitive (but a code-walker would n't understand those).
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2014-11-27T03:11:27Z ivan4th tries to fix pattern restriction checking code in cxml-rng. it's... somewhat terse
2014-11-27T03:13:12Z ivan4th: it's a shame to admit but I got some idea of what it's supposed to do by looking at jing java source code...
2014-11-27T03:16:36Z milesrout: Zhivago, christ you're here too? Nowhere am I safe!
2014-11-27T03:17:00Z ivan4th: (by "terse" I mean something like this: https://github.com/slyrus/cxml-rng/blob/master/parse.lisp#L1979 )
2014-11-27T03:17:34Z milesrout: ew loop macro
2014-11-27T03:19:12Z milesrout: Bicyclidine, thanks!
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2014-11-27T03:30:05Z milesrout: car isn't a special form, so how the heck is it implemented?
2014-11-27T03:30:18Z loke: milesrout: WHat do you mean?
2014-11-27T03:30:23Z loke: milesrout: It's just a plain function.
2014-11-27T03:30:29Z milesrout: that does what, exactly?
2014-11-27T03:30:42Z Bicyclidine: takes the car of a cons
2014-11-27T03:30:45Z milesrout: no shit
2014-11-27T03:30:51Z Bicyclidine: well, you asked
2014-11-27T03:30:54Z milesrout: but what special operators is it implemented with?
2014-11-27T03:31:00Z Bicyclidine: it's not
2014-11-27T03:31:12Z Bicyclidine: the lisp might compile it into some machine instructions or whatever
2014-11-27T03:31:16Z milesrout: then special operators aren't 'the fundamental building blocks' are they...
2014-11-27T03:31:22Z loke: The level of "specialness" is the same as for example + or LIST
2014-11-27T03:31:31Z loke: actually no. Not like LIST
2014-11-27T03:31:33Z Bicyclidine: i agree with you, for what it's worth
2014-11-27T03:31:42Z milesrout: the whole point is that everything is either a special operator or can be defined as a function or macro in Lisp, right?
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2014-11-27T03:31:51Z Bicyclidine: they're the fundamentals of the evaluation semantics
2014-11-27T03:31:56Z loke: milesrout: You are confusing "special operators" with "builtin functions"
2014-11-27T03:32:02Z Bicyclidine: pesky details like "doing things", that's not part of special operators
2014-11-27T03:32:24Z milesrout: oh i see.
2014-11-27T03:32:26Z Zhivago: miles: Special operator is only meaningful for code analysis.
2014-11-27T03:32:28Z milesrout: that does make sense.
2014-11-27T03:32:36Z loke: milesrout: Special forms are forms that does not apply the normal "evaluare arguments then pass to the function" semantics
2014-11-27T03:32:48Z loke: milesrout: A function can be built-in without being special
2014-11-27T03:32:50Z Zhivago: A special operator can be implemented as macros or functions or whatever.
2014-11-27T03:33:00Z drewc: I think that the special operators are builders that use building blocks like CL:CONS, but I might be hungry so over-analyzing things.
2014-11-27T03:33:02Z Zhivago: And a special can be a function.
2014-11-27T03:33:21Z milesrout: right.
2014-11-27T03:33:22Z Zhivago: It's an analysis rather than implementation issue.
2014-11-27T03:33:32Z loke: That said, one _CAN_ implement CAR as a plain function. All that you _really_ need is LAMBDA
2014-11-27T03:33:53Z milesrout: loke, how so?
2014-11-27T03:34:15Z loke: milesrout: Well, you have to start by definiting CONS
2014-11-27T03:34:39Z milesrout: oh. right.
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2014-11-27T03:35:03Z Bicyclidine: (defun cons (x y) (lambda (op) (funcall op x y))) (defun car (x) (funcall x (lambda (x y) x))) etc
2014-11-27T03:35:13Z loke: milesrout: You can define CONS like this: (defun CONS (a d) #'(lambda (f) (funcall f a d)))
2014-11-27T03:35:15Z Bicyclidine: hack that has little or nothing to do with actual implementations
2014-11-27T03:35:28Z Bicyclidine: people love lambda calculus
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2014-11-27T03:35:50Z milesrout: ooooohhhhh I see. so just a trick not something particularly realistic.
2014-11-27T03:36:13Z loke: Then CAR can be implemented as such: (defun CAR (c) (funcall c #'(lambda (a d) a)))
2014-11-27T03:36:14Z Bicyclidine: it's a trick that's useful for CS, not so much for writing something to do your taxes, though
2014-11-27T03:36:16Z milesrout: cool trick though
2014-11-27T03:36:31Z loke: milesrout: eactly
2014-11-27T03:36:45Z Bicyclidine: lisp implementations generally run on electromechanical computers, so they implement car in terms of weird things like "assembly"
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2014-11-27T03:36:52Z loke: milesrout: Now build an implementation of + on top of the lambdas I showed you :-)
2014-11-27T03:36:53Z Bicyclidine: actually, just try (disassemble #'car) and take a look
2014-11-27T03:36:54Z milesrout: heh.
2014-11-27T03:37:15Z Zhivago: And all of this is irrelevant to special-operator-p.
2014-11-27T03:37:17Z loke: milesrout: (it involves something called "church numbers" and is interesting, but pointless in most real-life scenarios :-) )
2014-11-27T03:37:26Z milesrout: Zhivago, not even slightly irrelevant.
2014-11-27T03:37:41Z Zhivago: Completely and utterly irrelevant.
2014-11-27T03:37:43Z Bicyclidine: well, it's relevant if you take special operators are the building blocks of bla bla bla in the wrong way
2014-11-27T03:37:48Z Zhivago: special-operator-p has nothing to do with _implementation_.
2014-11-27T03:38:05Z Zhivago: It's purely to do with analyzing CL code in a portable fashion.
2014-11-27T03:38:21Z milesrout: yeah I had assumed that 'special operator' meant 'thing provided by the interpreter' while everything else was actually lisp code.
2014-11-27T03:38:37Z milesrout: didn't think that built-in functions were a thing. but of course they are, silly me.
2014-11-27T03:38:42Z loke: :-)
2014-11-27T03:38:44Z Zhivago: That assumption is wrong, and you keep extending it by conflating special-operator-p with built-ins.
2014-11-27T03:38:56Z loke: Zhivago: He already figured that one
2014-11-27T03:39:09Z loke: milesrout: which Lisp implementation are you using?
2014-11-27T03:39:33Z milesrout: loke, SBCL.
2014-11-27T03:40:08Z loke: milesrout: ah. then you will see that SBCL's implementation of CAR looks like this: (defun car (x) (car x))
2014-11-27T03:40:22Z Bicyclidine: which is why you should just look at the disassembly.
2014-11-27T03:40:29Z loke: milesrout: I'll give you a minute or so to think about why that is.
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2014-11-27T03:41:49Z Zhivago: And then you'll find another seamy underbelly of CL where things aren't bolted on very well. :)
2014-11-27T03:42:10Z milesrout: car also needs to be a function, not just 'a thing that the interpreter evaluates'
2014-11-27T03:43:02Z loke: milesrout: Right. The compiler has special knowledge of the function CAR som that it can be effectively inlines as a single machine instruction. But, you also need to be able to do stuff like (mapcar #'car list) which means there needs to be an actual function CAR as well.
2014-11-27T03:43:17Z milesrout: (car x) doesn't call the function car, it is a use of a built-in construct of the interpreter? But for example you need to be able to do (funcall #'car 1 2 3)
2014-11-27T03:43:50Z milesrout: wait no (funcall #'car '(1 2 3))
2014-11-27T03:43:53Z Bicyclidine: built in construct of the compiler. that's pretty good, someone had to explain that on to me
2014-11-27T03:43:53Z Zhivago: milesroute: In CL terms, it would be a compiler-macro.
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2014-11-27T03:44:23Z milesrout: the compiler, yep. thanks.
2014-11-27T03:44:56Z loke: milesrout: Yes, exactly. So the implementation (defun car (x) (car x)) creates a function CAR, whole implementation is the inlined code of car (that is known by the compiler)
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2014-11-27T03:46:21Z milesrout: similar to the way that function sees a form like (lambda foo (x) x) and turns that into a closure, but that doesn't mean you can go around doing (apply #'lambda '(foo (x) x))
2014-11-27T03:47:00Z loke: milesrout: yeah, kinda
2014-11-27T03:47:22Z milesrout: similar conceptually, I mean.
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2014-11-27T03:48:00Z loke: milesrout: Well, I think I see what you're saying and if I'm right about my understanding, then yes.
2014-11-27T03:48:12Z Zhivago: Note that the special operator in that example is FUNCTION, not LAMBDA.
2014-11-27T03:49:11Z milesrout: mhm. lambda is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...)), which confused me at first before I remembered that function is a special operator that does not evaluate its argument in this case.
2014-11-27T03:49:44Z milesrout: it doesn't help that function is somewhat overloaded.
2014-11-27T03:49:53Z Zhivago: Well, it's not really overloaded.
2014-11-27T03:49:59Z Zhivago: It's (function name).
2014-11-27T03:50:15Z Zhivago: You just need to understand that (lambda ...) is a name.
2014-11-27T03:50:20Z loke: milesrout: By the way, the closest you can come to the actual "implementation" of CAR in SBCL is the function %def-reffer (you can find it in fun-info-funs.lisp)
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2014-11-27T03:50:27Z Bicyclidine: "okay, names are overloaded"
2014-11-27T03:50:37Z Zhivago: I wouldn't call that overloading.
2014-11-27T03:50:52Z pjb: milesrout: car is implemented with FUNCTION: (defun kons (a d) (LAMBDA (k) (funcall k a d))) (defun kar (k) (funcall k (lambda (a d) a))) (defun kdr (k) (funcall k (lambda (a d) d)))
2014-11-27T03:50:59Z Zhivago: It's just inlining the definition of the function into its name in order to support effectively anonymous functions.
2014-11-27T03:51:03Z milesrout: Bicyclidine, yeah that's what I mean. I don't literally mean 'overloaded' in the C++ or Java sense, but more in the 'it does two pretty distinct things'
2014-11-27T03:51:03Z Bicyclidine: we already gave em that one
2014-11-27T03:51:15Z pjb: milesrout: besides, all the functions in the CL package can be implemented as special operators.
2014-11-27T03:51:17Z Zhivago: I think it does one pretty consistent thing.
2014-11-27T03:51:29Z pjb: (more precisely, they can all be "open-coded").
2014-11-27T03:54:43Z milesrout: I'll probably get yelled at for this, but I feel there should be a read macro for LIST, like there are for QUOTE and FUNCTION.
2014-11-27T03:55:00Z pjb: then write it.
2014-11-27T03:55:12Z pjb: Some programs define #\[ to be a reader macro for that.
2014-11-27T03:55:19Z pjb: I wouldn't say that makes it more readable.
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2014-11-27T03:55:52Z milesrout: I suppose a big advantage of Lisp is that you don't have to ask a standards committee to add new "syntax".
2014-11-27T03:56:11Z milesrout: I suppose also that a big disadvantage of Lisp is that you don't have to ask a standards committee to add new "syntax".
2014-11-27T03:56:40Z loke: milesrout: It wouldn't help that much
2014-11-27T03:57:09Z loke: I just looked at a project of mine. 4000 lines of code, with 88 lines containing a call to LIST
2014-11-27T03:57:40Z Zhivago: Or, in other words, you have a uniformly mediocre syntax. :)
2014-11-27T03:57:51Z Zhivago: However, consider how you might extend the syntax of symbols ...
2014-11-27T03:58:13Z milesrout: Zhivago, eh?
2014-11-27T03:58:21Z milesrout: are you referring to symbol macros?
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2014-11-27T03:58:32Z loke: I grepped for '(list' so there may be some very rare instances of things like (let ((list ...)), although I rarely name my variables "list"
2014-11-27T03:58:34Z Zhivago: No. The syntax of symbols like ab:cd.
2014-11-27T03:58:49Z Zhivago: Let's say you wanted to extend that to handle ab:cd:ef.
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2014-11-27T04:03:25Z milesrout: that's something you currently cannot do, right?
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2014-11-27T04:05:08Z pjb: milesrout: you can do it with reader macros, but when you have unicode, you have to put reader macros on approximatively 2^21 characters.  Which with some implementations is very suboptimal (eg. ccl keeps reader macros in an a-list).
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2014-11-27T04:05:39Z milesrout: oh you end up making every character a reader macro? yuck.
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2014-11-27T04:06:02Z Zhivago: Yeah -- CL's flexibility is more at the grammatical level.
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2014-11-27T04:06:40Z pjb: milesrout: you can also patch the implementation. After all, forms like a:b:c are reserved for implementation extensions!
2014-11-27T04:07:21Z loke: pjb: Do you know of any implementations that has extensions for that already? (I know of none)
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2014-11-27T04:08:17Z pjb: milesrout: the cons as lambda can be very realistic on the contrary.  An implementation will in general implement closure in a very efficient way.  The only difficulty, is to distinguish cons functions from normal functions, when implementing consp and functionp.
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2014-11-27T04:08:35Z pjb: loke: perhaps on Lisp Machines?
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2014-11-27T04:08:44Z loke: hmm, possibly
2014-11-27T04:08:48Z loke: I know nothing abou tthem
2014-11-27T04:09:20Z pjb: loke: but you're right, there are a lot of CL implementations, but they barely explore the super-languages or extensions allowed.  People instead write clojures…
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2014-11-27T04:14:05Z pjb: milesrout: (lambda foo (x) x) is not a Common Lisp form.
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2014-11-27T04:14:22Z pjb: milesrout: the second elements of lambda lists must be a list.
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2014-11-27T04:16:38Z milesrout: it just occurred to me that macros are just functions really, but they are called at compile-time on forms rather than at runtime.
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2014-11-27T04:18:18Z milesrout: Lisp really is quite consistent.
2014-11-27T04:18:20Z milesrout: I like that
2014-11-27T04:18:23Z milesrout: elegant as fuck
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2014-11-27T04:19:53Z optikalmouse: elegant as fuck.
2014-11-27T04:19:58Z optikalmouse: fucking beautiful in other words?
2014-11-27T04:19:58Z loke: milesrout: Usually at compile time, yes :-)
2014-11-27T04:20:26Z loke: milesrout: Technically, they can (are often are) called at other times
2014-11-27T04:20:46Z milesrout: Technically, they can (are often are) called at other times <-- lisp programmer detected
2014-11-27T04:20:59Z milesrout: yeah 'usually' at compile time I meant
2014-11-27T04:21:10Z loke: milesrout: But yes, they are simply functions, returning a form, called at some point prior to evaluation
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2014-11-27T04:21:39Z loke: milesrout: Yes, but it helps if you don't make that assumption. Just think of lisps without a compiler
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2014-11-27T04:22:15Z Zhivago: Think of macros as being compiler extensions implemented with functions, rather than being functions.
2014-11-27T04:22:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-27T04:22:25Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: <18:12:47><beach> theseb: (defun list (&rest args) args) ; this is wrong, because &rest doesn't necessarily allocate a new list: (defun l (&rest a) a) (eq (apply (function l) '#1=(1 2 3)) '#1#) --> T is possible ; cf. 3.4.1.3: The value of a rest parameter is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to apply.
2014-11-27T04:22:25Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: of course, if as an implementor you are writing an implementation where &rest always copy the full argument list, then you can (defun cl:list (&rest a) a), but a user writing conforming code cannot.
2014-11-27T04:22:30Z milesrout: Zhivago, I like that
2014-11-27T04:22:32Z Zhivago: s/implemented with/represented as/
2014-11-27T04:22:56Z Zhivago: Then you can understand compiler-macros (which are different) in the same vein.
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2014-11-27T05:12:22Z drmeister: Passing excess arguments in the multiple value return structure is really nice.  It's got a nice symmetry to it. Excess arguments go in to the function through the multiple values structure and excess return values come out in the same structure.
2014-11-27T05:13:25Z loke: drmeister: I was unable to compile clasp
2014-11-27T05:13:27Z loke: help?
2014-11-27T05:13:36Z drmeister: A tricky part is generic function dispatch.
2014-11-27T05:13:55Z drmeister: Where did it go south on you?
2014-11-27T05:14:27Z loke: drmeister: Hmm, my link to the paste has scrolled off in #clasp
2014-11-27T05:14:57Z drmeister: loke: I can get it back.
2014-11-27T05:15:31Z loke: I'm recompiling now
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2014-11-27T05:16:43Z Zhivago: drmeister: Why not leave it up to the call sites to negotiate?
2014-11-27T05:16:56Z drmeister: Hmm I'm on my phone and can't search. Give me 10 min and I'll look it up.
2014-11-27T05:18:16Z drmeister: Zhivago: how do you mean?
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2014-11-27T05:19:30Z Zhivago: Well, a call implies a call site, so saying (foo bar) means that you will have a corresponding receiver somewhere.
2014-11-27T05:19:48Z Zhivago: A function can have a number of receivers that represent it.
2014-11-27T05:20:46Z Zhivago: So the calling expression and the receiving function don't need to have fixed interfaces.
2014-11-27T05:21:33Z Zhivago: You might have a call-receptor pair that uses registers, or passes in a list (hello apply) or puts every second argument in a treap, or ...
2014-11-27T05:22:03Z Zhivago: Then when linking, you just need to make sure that both ends are hooked up properly.
2014-11-27T05:22:39Z Zhivago: And you can imagine that this may make a big difference when dealing with untagged immediates, for example.
2014-11-27T05:22:43Z drmeister: loke: The intrinsics_bitcode_boehm.o problem - is that it?  I haven't seen that problem before.  Have you pulled the latest externals-clasp and clasp?
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2014-11-27T05:25:03Z drmeister: Zhivago: I haven't explored that idea.   My linking is standard Linux/OS X linking.  In my current call convention I'm passing up to five arguments in registers and the rest I'm writing into he multiple-values arra
2014-11-27T05:25:14Z Zhivago: drmeister: Fair enough.
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2014-11-27T05:48:32Z sdfgasdf: i'm new to common lisp. do i have to read the book "acl" first before "on lisp"?
2014-11-27T05:48:58Z Zhivago: Yes. Otherwise the lisp police will come and smash down your door.
2014-11-27T05:49:09Z Bicyclidine: pcl's a better introduction, i think
2014-11-27T05:49:53Z sdfgasdf: pcl then on lisp?
2014-11-27T05:51:08Z Bicyclidine: yeah
2014-11-27T05:51:34Z beach: sdfgasdf: I would say PCL then PAIP.
2014-11-27T05:51:54Z beach: sdfgasdf: "On Lisp" is very special.
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2014-11-27T05:56:44Z H4ns: reader discretion is advised
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2014-11-27T05:57:19Z beach: H4ns: For "On Lisp"?
2014-11-27T05:57:40Z theos: i found ACL to be superior to PCL
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2014-11-27T06:10:33Z sdfgasdf: theos: because of the exercises or something?
2014-11-27T06:11:26Z theos: sdfgasdf more comprehensive and step by step manual. and yes examples too
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2014-11-27T06:14:40Z sdfgasdf: does the code in paip can run in clisp?
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2014-11-27T06:14:52Z Botcyclidine: Should.
2014-11-27T06:15:17Z Botcyclidine: you can give it a shot, if you want to avoid typing http://norvig.com/paip/README.html
2014-11-27T06:15:43Z sdfgasdf: thanks for the information people :)
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2014-11-27T06:17:31Z sdfgasdf: looking at the paip's excites me
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2014-11-27T07:10:24Z loke: drmeister: ?
2014-11-27T07:10:26Z loke: there?
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2014-11-27T08:56:23Z knobo: Can I make the slime repl not print ^M from output that does (format t "~C" #\return)?
2014-11-27T08:56:47Z knobo: But instead does what a console would do.
2014-11-27T08:57:17Z knobo: This is probably not an slime/lisp quiestion though.
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2014-11-27T08:58:28Z H4ns: knobo: i'd recommend not printing a carriage return in the first place.
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2014-11-27T09:31:26Z pjb: knobo: yes, you can.
2014-11-27T09:32:15Z pjb: knobo: see https://gitorious.org/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/source/src/swank-terminal.lisp
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2014-11-27T09:34:47Z DelicateFlower: why is lisp unpopular?
2014-11-27T09:34:59Z DelicateFlower: compared to something like java
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2014-11-27T09:37:51Z H4ns: why is bach unpopular, compared to something like justin bieber?
2014-11-27T09:38:45Z pjb: DelicateFlower: have a look at the movie "The Giver".
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2014-11-27T09:44:52Z wasamasa: H4ns: lol
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2014-11-27T09:45:32Z pjb: wasamasa: it's not funny, unfortunately.
2014-11-27T09:45:42Z wasamasa: pjb: the movie?
2014-11-27T09:45:58Z pjb: the popularity differences.
2014-11-27T09:46:02Z DelicateFlower: pjb: what about it??
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2014-11-27T09:46:31Z pjb: DelicateFlower: it could explain why lisp is unpopular compared to something like java.
2014-11-27T09:47:05Z jasom: DelicateFlower: popularity is a funny thing; it's kind of like money: the easiest way to get more of it is to already have a lot of it.
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2014-11-27T09:48:13Z wasamasa: pjb: it's not all bad
2014-11-27T09:48:23Z wasamasa: pjb: imagine something like javadoc invading lisp files
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2014-11-27T09:48:52Z pjb: What an horror!
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2014-11-27T09:51:56Z DelicateFlower: the movie has 30% on rotten tomatoes
2014-11-27T09:52:00Z DelicateFlower: so i dont think its very good
2014-11-27T09:52:16Z DelicateFlower: and it would be far easier for you to say the 1-2 sentences that is your point
2014-11-27T09:52:23Z pjb: It is not a Hollywood movie.  Usians are dumb.
2014-11-27T09:52:24Z DelicateFlower: than for me to spend $20 on a shitty movie
2014-11-27T09:52:28Z DelicateFlower: and 2 hours to watch it
2014-11-27T09:53:16Z wasamasa: DelicateFlower: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
2014-11-27T09:53:30Z lavokad: which movie are u talking about?
2014-11-27T09:53:39Z pjb: Anyways popularity questions are off topic.
2014-11-27T09:53:52Z DelicateFlower: hannah montana best of both worlds world tour 3D
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2014-11-27T09:55:58Z wasamasa: DelicateFlower: tl;dr: your assumptions are wrong and your question flamebait at best
2014-11-27T09:56:51Z pjb: To say nothing of the reaction of going to Rotten Tomatoes to know if a movie is to be watched or not…
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2014-11-27T09:57:51Z knobo: pjb: thank you
2014-11-27T09:58:46Z knobo: DelicateFlower: Lisp is not unpopular!
2014-11-27T09:58:53Z alpha-: ^
2014-11-27T10:00:15Z knobo: Verry few people are talking bad about Lisp compaird to how many is talking bad about java.
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2014-11-27T10:02:40Z knobo: but it depends on what you mean by unpopular.
2014-11-27T10:03:23Z knobo: But as far as I know, Lisp is highly respected.
2014-11-27T10:04:37Z knobo: Why is Lisp highly respected? That is the question.
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2014-11-27T10:11:11Z DelicateFlower: rotten tomatoes is quite a good website
2014-11-27T10:11:13Z DelicateFlower: actually
2014-11-27T10:11:34Z H4ns: now, can you take all this elsewhere?  thank you.
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2014-11-27T10:12:44Z DelicateFlower: haha i get asked to leave for asking a question
2014-11-27T10:12:48Z DelicateFlower: surprise
2014-11-27T10:14:15Z Grue`: because you haven't said anything relevant to common lisp in a while
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2014-11-27T10:35:21Z DelicateFlower: yes i should leave
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2014-11-27T14:37:58Z nydel: sheesh it's easy to get confused when building a socket server
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2014-11-27T15:29:35Z clop2: what's the best practice for making a temporary file in lisp?
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2014-11-27T15:31:15Z H4ns: clop2: both uiop and cl-fad have functions to help you with that.
2014-11-27T15:31:29Z LiamH: http://stackoverflow.com/q/1384972
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2014-11-27T15:32:11Z H4ns: http://weitz.de/cl-fad/#temporary-files
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2014-11-27T16:16:19Z clop2: Thanks guys
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2014-11-27T16:45:26Z LiamH: I've updated the SO page with the systems H4ns mentioned.
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2014-11-27T16:54:38Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-11-27T17:05:51Z LiamH: Hi beach
2014-11-27T17:06:35Z oleo: evening!
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2014-11-27T17:20:04Z beach: Today, I managed to get a near-complete working version of my HIR compiler that generates code that works against a SICL first-class global environment in the host Common Lisp system.
2014-11-27T17:20:26Z beach: I just need to identify UNWIND targets and handle them correctly.
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2014-11-27T20:57:35Z genii makes coffee and slides one to chu   ( if he were actually here)
2014-11-27T20:57:42Z chu: Of course I am.
2014-11-27T20:58:10Z genii: chu: Tab-complete fail then :(
2014-11-27T20:58:22Z chu: :)
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2014-11-27T21:32:15Z stacksmith: G'day...  A quick question: I have a macro that creates other macros.  (defmacro foo (name) `(defmacro ,name () `(format t "macro ~A~%" ???name))).  What is the proper syntax for ???name to acces the name of the inner macro, kind of like ,name but one level up?
2014-11-27T21:32:26Z H4ns: ,,name
2014-11-27T21:32:37Z H4ns: maybe you want to read on lisp
2014-11-27T21:32:59Z stacksmith: That's what I thought, but it doesn't seem to work.  I have On Lisp in front of me...  I'll try again.
2014-11-27T21:33:05Z Bicyclidine: ,',name maybe
2014-11-27T21:33:12Z Bicyclidine: usually if i'm stuck using multiple backquotes, i try writing it with regular list manipulation first
2014-11-27T21:33:35Z Bicyclidine: (defmacro foo (name) `(defmacro ,name () (list 'format t "macro ~a~%" ',name)))
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2014-11-27T21:34:25Z Bicyclidine: also, in general when something "doesn't work" you should explain why. does (foo bar) tell you "BAR is unbound", perhaps
2014-11-27T21:34:42Z stacksmith: ,, definitely does not work: (foo aaa) results in warnings that aaa inside the format form is undefined.
2014-11-27T21:34:45Z Bicyclidine: s/why/how/, sorry
2014-11-27T21:34:51Z Bicyclidine: right, there you go then, put in the quote
2014-11-27T21:35:11Z stacksmith: Bicyclidine, thanks.  Is the list form required here?
2014-11-27T21:35:14Z Bicyclidine: nope
2014-11-27T21:35:34Z Bicyclidine: (Defmacro foo (name) `(defmacro ,name () `(format t "macro ~a~%" ,',name))) works, probably
2014-11-27T21:35:59Z Bicyclidine: also try (macroexpand '(foo bar))
2014-11-27T21:37:27Z stacksmith: Bicyclidine, your last one does not work; (foo aaa) compiles but (aaa) fails as "variable AAA is unbound"
2014-11-27T21:39:10Z stacksmith: same 'AAA is unbound' result with (defmacro foo (name) `(defmacro ,name () (list 'format t "macro ~a~%" ',name)))
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2014-11-27T21:40:35Z Bicyclidine: right. make that ',',name or '',name then.
2014-11-27T21:40:37Z Bicyclidine: that works.
2014-11-27T21:43:57Z stacksmith: Bicyclidine, you do mean regular quotes, not backquotes?
2014-11-27T21:44:02Z Bicyclidine: yes
2014-11-27T21:44:50Z stacksmith: ',',name does not compile; "comma not inside backquote"... (using sbcl)
2014-11-27T21:45:23Z stacksmith: '', does work.  Thanks!
2014-11-27T21:45:52Z stacksmith: Now I have to figure out why.
2014-11-27T21:46:03Z Bicyclidine: i meant using the two commas with the two backquotes version
2014-11-27T21:46:32Z Bicyclidine: do macroexpand-1 a couple times, it'll make sense
2014-11-27T21:46:51Z stacksmith: Single comma seems to do the right thing.  (foo aaa) (aaa) prints "macro AAA".
2014-11-27T21:47:03Z Bicyclidine: yes, they both work
2014-11-27T21:47:20Z Bicyclidine: (defmacro foo (name) `(defmacro ,name () `(format t "macro ~a~%" ',',name))) or (defmacro foo (name) `(defmacro ,name () (list 'format t "macro ~a~%" '',name)))
2014-11-27T21:49:48Z stacksmith: OK.  Macroexpanding does help, although the whole thing makes me wish I was a little smarter.
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2014-11-27T21:50:20Z stacksmith: Thanks for your help, Bicyclidine.
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2014-11-27T21:57:09Z lavokad: hi, could someone help understand this: http://pastie.org/9747556
2014-11-27T21:58:00Z lavokad: sorry..this one
2014-11-27T21:58:02Z lavokad: http://pastie.org/9747558
2014-11-27T21:58:15Z lavokad: had lost funcall
2014-11-27T21:59:31Z Bicyclidine: because CL has separate function and variable namespaces
2014-11-27T22:00:23Z Bicyclidine: so binding something as a variable doesn't make it available as the head of a form like that
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2014-11-27T22:09:08Z lavokad: Bicyclidine, so it's all about when the parameter p is created. It is created in a variable namespace, right? So calling (f..) is not possible because f is defined in the variable space and not function? Funcall is the special form that let's to try to call function with function asigned to a variable in a variable space?
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2014-11-27T22:13:14Z Bicyclidine: funcall is a function, not a special form, but otherwise yeah prety much
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2014-11-27T22:16:42Z lavokad: Bicyclidine, thanks. Right, FUNCTION is a special operator, funcall and apply are functions
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