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ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-24T01:47:48Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-24T01:50:53Z drl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T01:52:37Z kub4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T01:54:08Z Gardner left #lisp 2014-11-24T01:55:45Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T01:55:51Z BitPuffi1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T01:59:38Z harish joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:10:18Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:12:28Z Quadresce quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-24T02:19:00Z csziacobus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T02:19:37Z vowyer_ quit (Quit: C-x C-c) 2014-11-24T02:20:04Z henesy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T02:21:58Z drl joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:25:57Z beach joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:26:05Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-11-24T02:29:06Z drl: Hi, Beach. 2014-11-24T02:31:27Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-24T02:34:07Z beach: drl: Did you ever do anything with CLIMatis? 2014-11-24T02:36:26Z drl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T02:37:00Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:37:45Z Bicyclidine: beach: https://github.com/Bike/compilerer/blob/llists/complex-lambda.lisp#L24-86 remind me not to do this again. 2014-11-24T02:37:56Z wjiang joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:38:22Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T02:38:38Z wjiang quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-11-24T02:39:04Z wjiang joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:39:12Z drl joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:39:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:39:44Z beach: Bicyclidine: Pretty hairy. 2014-11-24T02:40:02Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:40:37Z beach: So it's runtime? 2014-11-24T02:41:43Z beach: I see a reference to :allow-other-keys. 2014-11-24T02:42:24Z zRecursive: g 2014-11-24T02:42:42Z bcoburn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T02:42:59Z drl: beach: Not yet. I've been busy with unexpected busy work. But CLIMatis is still in my plans. Have you done more work on it? 2014-11-24T02:43:55Z beach: No, I have been busy with SICL. Though moore33 promised he would do the presentation types, I haven't seen any evidence of that. 2014-11-24T02:45:10Z drl: beach: what is SICL? 2014-11-24T02:45:23Z beach: minion: Please tell drl about SICL. 2014-11-24T02:45:23Z minion: drl: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2014-11-24T02:45:34Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:45:39Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:48:37Z Bicyclidine: beach: yeah, i've gotten as far as a lisp with most of the control constructs and lambda with all lexical variables and no keywords. figured i'd try keyword arguments next, but parsing is hard. 2014-11-24T02:49:09Z beach: Bicyclidine: Yes, I know :) 2014-11-24T02:49:32Z beach: Bicyclidine: Is it an interpreter or a compiler? 2014-11-24T02:49:34Z Bicyclidine: pretty sure that's everything you need at runtime... except it doesn't handle specials :( 2014-11-24T02:50:04Z Bicyclidine: beach: compiler. sposed to be that closure dealie. i'd like to experiment with having a "simple" compiler suitable for using at runtime, like a primitive jit i guess. 2014-11-24T02:50:39Z beach: Interesting. Do you generate native code? 2014-11-24T02:51:31Z Bicyclidine: no, it's closures. uh, lemme see 2014-11-24T02:52:22Z Bicyclidine: https://github.com/Bike/compilerer/blob/llists/tagbody-go.lisp#L42-62 the "(lambda (stack) ...)" is the compiled code. just a host closure. dirt simple, from some paper on scheme that's like twenty years old probably 2014-11-24T02:53:36Z beach: I see. So you count on some other compiler to make it executable? 2014-11-24T02:53:38Z Bicyclidine: you have a fixed number of closures you compile into, so you get the host compiler to optimize the hell of those, and the compiled code is a network of them. 2014-11-24T02:53:45Z beach: Yes, I see. 2014-11-24T02:54:38Z beach: It explains how you knew about implementing certain non-local control transfers in that kind of environment. :) 2014-11-24T02:55:49Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:55:51Z Bicyclidine: i just want compilers to stop being huge incomprehensible hulks, i guess 2014-11-24T02:56:24Z beach: But you are cheating a bit, because you rely on the host compiler. But maybe that is a temporary solution. 2014-11-24T02:57:22Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-11-24T02:58:12Z Bicyclidine: the idea is to use it when compilation speed is more important than good optimization (but mostly I'm messing around) 2014-11-24T02:58:52Z beach: Got it. 2014-11-24T02:59:27Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T02:59:43Z Bicyclidine: gives me some opportunity to experiment. i'm gonna try lexical compiler macros, i think. 2014-11-24T02:59:57Z Zhivago: bicyclidine: Yeah, I suspect that the workable approach to that is to write it as an interpreter with suitable introspection, and then compile traces through it. 2014-11-24T03:03:13Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:05:19Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T03:05:29Z drl: beach: in my humble opinion lisp's weakest link is lack of an easy to use, portable, open source, well documented GUI written in CL itself. Finishing CLIMatis will make you a lisp hero, I think. 2014-11-24T03:05:56Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:06:33Z beach: drl: I agree that it is a very unfortunate situation. 2014-11-24T03:06:46Z beach: But I am not looking to be a hero of any kind. 2014-11-24T03:07:34Z drmeister: beach: Good job on the fix for setq 2014-11-24T03:08:14Z beach: drmeister: Thanks. I think I'll do the same thing for lexical setq, because I don't want to access a potentially captured variable twice. 2014-11-24T03:09:39Z reeelkkkip_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:09:44Z reeelkkkip_: i'd like to make a program that detects if a user is a nigger then the program won't work 2014-11-24T03:10:25Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T03:12:33Z someone quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-11-24T03:13:11Z someone joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:16:34Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:22:14Z reeelkkkip_: i'd like to make a program that detects if a user is a nigger then the program won't work 2014-11-24T03:26:31Z reeelkkkip_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-11-24T03:27:42Z henesy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T03:31:11Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:31:41Z guicho joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:34:25Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:37:40Z zyaku quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-24T03:43:21Z nightsha- quit (K-Lined) 2014-11-24T03:43:22Z sbryant quit (K-Lined) 2014-11-24T03:44:41Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:44:43Z nightshade427 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:46:32Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T03:48:15Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-11-24T03:52:42Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2014-11-24T03:59:15Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:02:21Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-24T04:02:48Z Vutral: hm 2014-11-24T04:02:53Z Vutral: how do i ge tquicklist again 2014-11-24T04:03:41Z beach: Vutral: Do you mean "Quicklisp"? 2014-11-24T04:04:03Z Vutral: yeah 2014-11-24T04:04:24Z beach: I don't know, but I know that Google will till me right away. 2014-11-24T04:04:37Z Vutral: lol 2014-11-24T04:04:53Z Vutral: 2kb/s 2014-11-24T04:04:53Z Vutral: internet bandwidth 2014-11-24T04:05:00Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:05:16Z Vutral: with luck i will enter this millenium when i got vdsl 2014-11-24T04:05:17Z Vutral: lol 2014-11-24T04:05:49Z Bicyclidine: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2014-11-24T04:05:51Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:06:50Z beach: Bicyclidine: Give a man a fish... 2014-11-24T04:08:53Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:10:22Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T04:10:23Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:14:01Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-24T04:19:50Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T04:21:26Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:21:42Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1) 2014-11-24T04:22:08Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:23:55Z rhollor: so, I'm making this game which will include resources such as plants and animals. So I made a generic resource structure like this: (defstruct (resource (:include item)) produce produce-type) ;note that I made a genric item defstruct as well 2014-11-24T04:24:39Z Zhivago: Why not use classes? 2014-11-24T04:24:42Z rhollor: but when I try: (defstruct (plant (:include resource)) (produce-type 'wood)), I get an override error 2014-11-24T04:25:34Z rhollor: is there any way, using structures, to safely override the default values of a parent structure? 2014-11-24T04:26:29Z rhollor: Zhivago: I haven't got to the CLOS chapter of my book yet, but for now, I'm trying to learn the basics as well as I can 2014-11-24T04:26:59Z |3b| wouldn't consider structs 'basics' 2014-11-24T04:27:19Z Zhivago: Well, you probably want to specify the constructor like that, rather than the slow. 2014-11-24T04:27:24Z Zhivago: er, slot. 2014-11-24T04:27:37Z Zhivago: See :constructor, I guess. 2014-11-24T04:28:16Z Zhivago: However, if this is a property of the class itself, why make a slot at all? 2014-11-24T04:28:49Z Zhivago: (defmethod produce-type ((this plant)) 'plant) 2014-11-24T04:29:10Z Zhivago: Unless you want wood not to have a distinct class, I guess. 2014-11-24T04:31:05Z rhollor quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T04:33:35Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:34:08Z Sgeo is now known as Woosh2 2014-11-24T04:34:11Z Zhivago: I'd suggest starting by producing the protocol first, and slots last. 2014-11-24T04:34:17Z Woosh2 is now known as Sgeo 2014-11-24T04:34:27Z Zhivago: The protocol being the set of generic functions you expect to use. 2014-11-24T04:34:28Z rhollor: Zhivago: got disconnected for a second, but I read what you said in the logs 2014-11-24T04:34:44Z Zhivago: Slots being an incidental implementation mechanism for those. 2014-11-24T04:36:53Z rhollor: I was going to make more resource structures that have the produc and produce-type slots, but were going to have there own default values for the type they are, like animals produce-type 'food or deposit 'gold 2014-11-24T04:38:24Z rhollor: I can just include that directly in the lower defstruct's themselves and avoid all of this, but then resource would serve as nothing more than a placeholder. I would like for everything to be structured, and I hate useless code 2014-11-24T04:40:03Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-24T04:40:28Z Zhivago: Well, what I'm wondering is why you have these classes at all, then. 2014-11-24T04:40:48Z Zhivago: It would make sense for there to be one universal resource class. It would make sense for there to be one class per resource type. 2014-11-24T04:40:52Z Nilby joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:41:03Z t4nk181 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:41:22Z Zhivago: But it doesn't make a great deal of sense to have classes for just some resource types. 2014-11-24T04:41:50Z Zhivago: If you're thinking of categories of resource, then implementing a categories would be more straight-forward. 2014-11-24T04:43:23Z Zhivago: And instead of a produce-type, why not just have a produce method? 2014-11-24T04:43:47Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-24T04:44:18Z Zhivago: Then you can just say (rainbow-p (product-of unicorn)) 2014-11-24T04:44:21Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:45:16Z t4nk181 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-11-24T04:45:28Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:46:08Z rhollor: maybe the produce method would work 2014-11-24T04:46:08Z rhollor left #lisp 2014-11-24T04:46:26Z Zhivago: And instead of classes, you could consider representative instances, if you like. 2014-11-24T04:46:44Z Zhivago: (rainbow-p (product-of (a unicorn))) 2014-11-24T04:46:58Z Zhivago: Then your class choices become an implementation detail. 2014-11-24T04:53:46Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-24T04:56:07Z rhollor: Zhivago: thanks, I'll make that work 2014-11-24T04:56:10Z rhollor quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-24T05:02:34Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-11-24T05:02:55Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-24T05:03:03Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T05:03:57Z Zhivago: Well, it might be a stupid idea, so ymmv. :) 2014-11-24T05:04:33Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-11-24T05:08:47Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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http://clsql.b9.com/platforms.html 2014-11-24T05:34:26Z p_nathan: I would def recommend clsql over a v 0.0.1 lib 2014-11-24T05:35:16Z blahzik: ok; that’s what i was leaning towards too, but it looks like they haven’t updated reports of tests against newer versions of oracle 2014-11-24T05:35:41Z p_nathan: you might want to email the authors and ask if they know anything about oracle compat 2014-11-24T05:35:42Z blahzik: i’m tyring to find a parallel to cx_Oracle from the python world, but i guess that’s not to be 2014-11-24T05:36:57Z blahzik: that’s a good idea; will do 2014-11-24T05:37:20Z blahzik: thanks for the quick responses, p_nathan! 2014-11-24T05:37:54Z p_nathan: np, feel free to report back on your Oracle/CLSQL experiences 2014-11-24T05:38:23Z blahzik: will do; long journey ahead of me yet, i plan on lurking here a bunch 2014-11-24T05:39:08Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-11-24T05:41:43Z mighta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T05:42:09Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-11-24T05:42:28Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T05:42:49Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: an error occurred) 2014-11-24T05:42:55Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-11-24T05:43:09Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-11-24T05:44:12Z ivan4th: hello. is it just me or CL syntax highlighting @ github suffered too as a result of this? http://www.greghendershott.com/2014/11/github-dropped-pygments.html 2014-11-24T05:47:09Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T05:51:45Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T05:54:09Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T05:56:01Z |3b|: ivan4th: yeah, obvious problems with first 2 files i looked at (no idea if old one was any better though) 2014-11-24T05:57:33Z ivan4th: that's what they're using currently: https://github.com/textmate/lisp.tmbundle/blob/master/Syntaxes/Lisp.plist 2014-11-24T05:58:02Z |3b|: that looks pretty bad, highlights some CL symbols but not others, eval-when in 2 colors, "list" in ,arg-list highlighted, "null" in null-pointer 2014-11-24T05:58:33Z |3b|: highlighting #:symbol wrong if symbol has punctuation characters in it 2014-11-24T06:00:01Z ivan4th: too bad :( and perhaps unfixable short of writing greasemonkey script that (ab)uses some syntax highlighting server to rehighlight the sources 2014-11-24T06:00:17Z |3b|: nah, correct fix is submit a better version of that file :/ 2014-11-24T06:00:41Z |3b|: which looks like it would be pretty annoying, but possibly easier than that greasemonkey script 2014-11-24T06:01:09Z |3b|: though greasemonkey script+server has the advantage it could use colorize, which would give it links to spec 2014-11-24T06:01:26Z |3b| always misses those everywhere that doesn't have them 2014-11-24T06:03:42Z pinupgeek joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:04:52Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:05:15Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:06:06Z ivan4th: will think a bit more about it... extracting the source from github page via js isn't hard, injecting custom CSS isn't hard either. the only problem is possible server overload, but perhaps the script will not be used too widely 2014-11-24T06:10:17Z ilhami quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:10:46Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-11-24T06:11:21Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:11:56Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:11:57Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T06:11:57Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:12:45Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:13:31Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:15:02Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:20:53Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-11-24T06:22:42Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-24T06:26:06Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T06:37:22Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:39:33Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:43:00Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:43:34Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:44:04Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:44:11Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:46:36Z ilhami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:46:50Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:47:10Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T06:51:12Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:53:13Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-24T06:53:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T06:55:55Z ilhami quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T07:04:43Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T07:07:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T07:08:32Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:15:45Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:18:26Z drmeister: beach: Where does processing of top-level forms happen in Cleavir? 2014-11-24T07:18:55Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:19:35Z beach: drmeister: I forget, let me check. It is possible that it's still in SICL. 2014-11-24T07:20:21Z drmeister: I'm wondering, should I use my processing or should I use SICL/Cleavir's? 2014-11-24T07:20:34Z beach: Up to you. 2014-11-24T07:21:00Z beach: If you use that of Cleavir, you need to define a method on CLEAVIER-ENV:EVAL 2014-11-24T07:22:21Z drmeister: I do that already. I thought compiling eval-when required it. 2014-11-24T07:22:21Z Nilby joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:22:47Z beach: Well that's where it happens., 2014-11-24T07:23:18Z beach: There is a variable *compile-time-too* 2014-11-24T07:23:33Z beach: in Generate-AST 2014-11-24T07:24:32Z beach: See the comment "Managing top-level forms" in generate-ast.lisp 2014-11-24T07:25:16Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:25:37Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T07:25:53Z beach: drmeister: It should be possible to understand by reading the comment. 2014-11-24T07:26:02Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T07:26:49Z beach: drmeister: I need to go. I'll read the logs if you have any problems. Or you can send me email. 2014-11-24T07:26:53Z beach left #lisp 2014-11-24T07:27:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:27:34Z drmeister: It's ok, I need to get to bed. I'm just trying to get started writing a COMPILE-FILE that uses cleavir. 2014-11-24T07:27:42Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:27:55Z drmeister: I'll talk to you later. 2014-11-24T07:31:07Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:31:49Z ska-fan: Is there a repl that adds missing parens in the end automatically? 2014-11-24T07:33:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:35:16Z phadthai: I'm not sure if slime or paredit allows that in the repl, however you could use paredit in a slime buffer and evaluate or compile the block at point 2014-11-24T07:37:11Z phadthai: s/slime buffer/slime editor buffer/ 2014-11-24T07:39:54Z pyx joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:39:57Z pyx quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T07:39:57Z pyx joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:40:46Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-24T07:45:24Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-11-24T07:51:33Z psy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T07:55:13Z meiji11 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T07:57:00Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:00:37Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:08:42Z oconnore quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T08:12:23Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-11-24T08:12:24Z redeemed joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:18:33Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-11-24T08:20:46Z keen___________7 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T08:21:27Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T08:21:31Z rtoym_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:21:38Z rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 2014-11-24T08:22:19Z keen___________7 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:24:19Z rtoym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T08:24:39Z rtoym joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:24:51Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:28:01Z kub4 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:31:27Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:33:04Z psy joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:33:27Z oconnore joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:37:51Z BitPuffi1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:39:07Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:39:26Z BitPuffi1 is now known as BitPuffin 2014-11-24T08:46:07Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-24T08:51:39Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:52:00Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:53:12Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:53:12Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T08:53:12Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:54:19Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:55:05Z ilhami quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T08:55:43Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T08:55:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-24T08:57:45Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:00:43Z Shinmera: \o/ I got framebuffer targets workin in Parasol! http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.24-09:59:39.png 2014-11-24T09:01:08Z Shinmera: It now runs very smoothly. 2014-11-24T09:02:14Z p_nathan: Shinmera: that's very nice! 2014-11-24T09:03:04Z Shinmera: It is indeed. 2014-11-24T09:03:52Z p_nathan: What is Parasol, Shinmera? 2014-11-24T09:04:03Z Shinmera: A Common Lisp painting application. 2014-11-24T09:04:10Z |3b|: exactly what it looks like, a pepper simulator 2014-11-24T09:04:13Z Shinmera: That too 2014-11-24T09:04:26Z Shinmera: It has a jalapeno mode as well though 2014-11-24T09:05:39Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:06:09Z p_nathan: Ah, a pepper simulator. Always needed one of those 2014-11-24T09:06:15Z Shinmera: Next step is to segregate painting into a separate thread. Let's hope this won't be as painful as I expect it to be. 2014-11-24T09:06:18Z p_nathan: :) 2014-11-24T09:06:34Z Shinmera: It's Gimp's primary feature, so if I want to compete, I got to have that. 2014-11-24T09:06:48Z Shinmera: The pepper I mean 2014-11-24T09:08:18Z p_nathan: Ah 2014-11-24T09:09:10Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:10:38Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:11:44Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:12:10Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:16:21Z Shinmera: What is everyone else up to on a Monday morning? 2014-11-24T09:16:44Z z0d: work work 2014-11-24T09:16:46Z kub4 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:17:54Z Shinmera: Interesting work? 2014-11-24T09:17:56Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:18:51Z z0d: so-so 2014-11-24T09:20:25Z rick-monster: building a live performance midi sequencer in common lisp! 2014-11-24T09:20:41Z Shinmera: z0d: I'm guessing your work isn't CL related? 2014-11-24T09:21:05Z Shinmera: rick-monster: So I've read! Sounds interesting for sure. 2014-11-24T09:21:13Z rick-monster: until the other programmers get here, then I'll be doing something marginally less exciting 2014-11-24T09:22:15Z z0d: Shinmera: correct 2014-11-24T09:22:41Z Shinmera: z0d: Too bad.. 2014-11-24T09:22:51Z InvalidCo: rick-monster: linux or windows? 2014-11-24T09:23:09Z rick-monster: invalidCo - linux 2014-11-24T09:23:18Z InvalidCo: rick-monster: megacools 2014-11-24T09:23:54Z InvalidCo: I need to configure jack on my new linux laptop though 2014-11-24T09:24:12Z Shozan is now known as SHODAN 2014-11-24T09:24:15Z rick-monster: invalidCo - it's just using the alsa sequencer 2014-11-24T09:24:23Z InvalidCo: ah 2014-11-24T09:24:33Z InvalidCo: how does that work, these days, anyways? 2014-11-24T09:24:46Z InvalidCo: do you write/read to file descs or use the c lib? 2014-11-24T09:24:49Z rick-monster: there's a C API that you hook into, then away you go 2014-11-24T09:24:56Z InvalidCo: ah 2014-11-24T09:25:05Z shifty`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T09:25:22Z shifty`` joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:26:13Z InvalidCo: I still want to write a debug library for CL on linux 2014-11-24T09:26:14Z rick-monster: my bindings are sending/receiving the basic midi signals now 2014-11-24T09:26:20Z InvalidCo: you know, proc and stuff 2014-11-24T09:26:37Z InvalidCo: rick-monster: so you'll have a live-programmable soft-synthesizer with hookups to midi keyboards? :) 2014-11-24T09:27:07Z rick-monster: invalidCo I'm just interested in a looping live performance sequencer 2014-11-24T09:27:13Z InvalidCo: ah yes 2014-11-24T09:27:22Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:27:24Z InvalidCo: you've probably used ableton and such in the past? 2014-11-24T09:27:51Z InvalidCo: I always wanted something like that but with a timeline showing what's going to happen 2014-11-24T09:28:47Z radioninja quit (Quit: :wq) 2014-11-24T09:28:49Z rick-monster: maybe you can hack up a timeline with Shinmera's jalapeno simulator! 2014-11-24T09:28:57Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:29:13Z corni quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:30:14Z Shinmera: I don't think that's the right idea 2014-11-24T09:30:23Z InvalidCo: what's a jalapeno simulator? 2014-11-24T09:30:55Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-24T09:31:22Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.19-21:41:07.png 2014-11-24T09:31:42Z rick-monster: my own objective is to control the sequencer with my feet and hopefully have the thing run on an embedded device 2014-11-24T09:32:02Z InvalidCo: what, were all the emacs shortcuts taken? 2014-11-24T09:32:05Z InvalidCo: *rimshot* 2014-11-24T09:32:34Z InvalidCo: Shinmera: ok 2014-11-24T09:32:35Z Shinmera: Obviously the sequencer will translate to emacs keychords. 2014-11-24T09:32:55Z H4ns: C-x C-c minor 2014-11-24T09:33:26Z Shinmera: InvalidCo: It's just a joke on the Gimp pepper brush that I reimplemented in Parasol. Stassats then wanted a Jalapeno brush, so here we are. 2014-11-24T09:34:56Z kuimacro joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:35:21Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:39:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:43:54Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:45:12Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:45:41Z Jack joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:46:05Z Jack is now known as Guest28817 2014-11-24T09:46:14Z Guest28817 left #lisp 2014-11-24T09:47:30Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:49:55Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:50:48Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-24T09:52:36Z InvalidCo: Shinmera: aj yes :D 2014-11-24T09:53:38Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:55:15Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:55:17Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:56:08Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-11-24T09:56:17Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T09:59:00Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 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or whatever 2014-11-24T11:50:24Z InvalidCo: cools 2014-11-24T11:50:33Z InvalidCo: does it work if the repl is busy? 2014-11-24T11:50:43Z InvalidCo: of course, you can use slime-mrepl for it 2014-11-24T11:50:44Z rick-monster: it fires off in a new thread I think 2014-11-24T11:50:49Z InvalidCo: ah 2014-11-24T11:50:51Z InvalidCo: megacools 2014-11-24T11:51:12Z InvalidCo: does it stdout to *inferior-lisp* or the actual repl? 2014-11-24T11:51:42Z rick-monster: I route all my stdout to the repl anyways... 2014-11-24T11:55:00Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-11-24T11:57:51Z maxpeck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T11:58:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-24T11:58:36Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-11-24T11:59:49Z maxpeck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T12:00:18Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-11-24T12:04:32Z maxpeck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T12:05:55Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-11-24T12:06:03Z enitiz joined #lisp 2014-11-24T12:06:29Z maxpeck quit 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sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T13:48:15Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T13:48:40Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T13:48:59Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T13:51:06Z drmeister: Could anyone explain to me (like I were five years old) what compile-time-too means in terms of top level environment processing by compile-file? 2014-11-24T13:51:42Z towodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T13:53:55Z drmeister: I'm starting to write a second compiler and I'm trying to fill in an understanding of concepts I didn't quite get the first time around. 2014-11-24T13:53:57Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T13:58:04Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-11-24T13:58:39Z hitecnologys: Good evening. 2014-11-24T13:59:01Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T13:59:24Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T13:59:29Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-11-24T13:59:49Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:00:31Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:00:53Z hitecnologys: Is there anything like "Lisp in a Box" but up to date? 2014-11-24T14:01:02Z eudoxia: lispstick 2014-11-24T14:01:07Z H4ns: lispworks 2014-11-24T14:04:39Z Cymew: drmeister: since that's in the sb-c package, I'd ask in #sbcl instead 2014-11-24T14:04:58Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:05:20Z Cymew: Unless I'm totally misunderstanding what you are talking about 2014-11-24T14:05:42Z Xach: Cymew: it's part of the standard language 2014-11-24T14:07:16Z drmeister: Cymew: thanks but I'm referring to the compile time mode in clhs 3.2.3.1 2014-11-24T14:07:22Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:07:53Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:08:23Z Cymew: I see 2014-11-24T14:08:33Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:08:44Z Cymew: My search of clhs was not thorough enough 2014-11-24T14:09:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:10:13Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:10:28Z drmeister: No problem. 2014-11-24T14:10:34Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:10:43Z Cymew: Looking at that section I totally see why you'd want that explained like you're a five year old. That is messy stuff 2014-11-24T14:12:07Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:12:30Z yano joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:12:36Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:13:04Z |3b|: it means it does it at compile time, too. 2014-11-24T14:13:11Z |3b| isn't very helpful to five year olds 2014-11-24T14:14:32Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T14:14:56Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:20:23Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:20:23Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T14:20:23Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:21:37Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:21:37Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'll have to think on that. 2014-11-24T14:45:57Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:47:39Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:50:05Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-24T14:51:19Z wws quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:52:31Z wws quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:56:04Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T14:57:14Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:01:11Z splittist: It is slightly confusing that compile-time-too means evaluate first, when not-compile-time means just compile; I guess it's inevitable when using 'compile' and 'evaluate' to name the times and the actions. 2014-11-24T15:06:39Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:07:51Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:09:23Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:10:51Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:12:40Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:14:48Z cwandrews joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:15:03Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:16:38Z hitecnologys: H4ns, eudoxia: thanks. I'll look into it. 2014-11-24T15:17:01Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:17:56Z hitecnologys: Sorry for delay, I got a bit busy immediately after I asked question and it just got out of my head for a while. 2014-11-24T15:18:43Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:19:34Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:25:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:26:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T15:27:11Z psy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T15:27:56Z ilhami quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:28:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:29:35Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:29:35Z loke_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:30:09Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:30:18Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:31:05Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:33:52Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:34:26Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:40:10Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:40:21Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:40:25Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:41:23Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:41:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:46:44Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:49:50Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2014-11-24T15:50:36Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:51:18Z sivoais quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T15:52:12Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:54:42Z sivoais quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T15:54:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T15:55:12Z sivoais joined #lisp 2014-11-24T15:57:07Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:00:19Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:00:37Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:01:27Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-24T16:01:42Z alexey1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T16:02:04Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:02:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:03:43Z Nilby quit (Quit: イカ墨の雲) 2014-11-24T16:06:20Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-24T16:12:08Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T16:12:31Z rpg: Is pvk ever around on #lisp? 2014-11-24T16:13:44Z reb` joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:13:49Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: try #sbcl 2014-11-24T16:16:50Z zolk3ri joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:21:57Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-24T16:22:32Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:29:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-24T16:31:06Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: thanks! 2014-11-24T16:32:21Z jlarocco quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-24T16:32:29Z psy joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:32:57Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-24T16:33:14Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-24T16:33:18Z Xach: He goes by pkhuong on irc, usually. 2014-11-24T16:33:34Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:33:34Z pecg quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T16:33:34Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:34:09Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:36:05Z Cymew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T16:36:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:36:31Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:36:54Z francogrex: sbcl --script .lisp (but not .fasl) file? 2014-11-24T16:37:40Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T16:38:24Z chu joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:43:04Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-24T16:44:28Z Bicyclidine: Xach: question - I had a symbolic link in quicklisp/local-projects, but when i added a -test.asd in the same target folder i had to make another symbolic link to the same place in local-projects for asdf to find it. is this intended? 2014-11-24T16:44:36Z guicho joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:46:42Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:50:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:50:52Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 188 seconds) 2014-11-24T16:51:39Z Xach: Bicyclidine: the local-projects mechanism only works on the top-level directory. adding files to subdirectories is not automatic. but it will be found the next time it automatically scans, or you can force it with (ql:register-local-projects) 2014-11-24T16:52:24Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-24T16:52:33Z sword joined #lisp 2014-11-24T16:53:00Z Xach will be back in a bit 2014-11-24T16:55:29Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T16:56:21Z Grue`: i had another kind of problem concerning this, I had local-projects directory symlinked from another user so current user had no write access to it; and when it tried to register new local projects it failed 2014-11-24T16:56:43Z Grue`: because it writes them in a file under that directory 2014-11-24T16:59:00Z Shinmera: Can someone quickly test this? http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/7P# 2014-11-24T16:59:21Z Shinmera: I'm getting the annotated error and have no idea why. 2014-11-24T17:00:03Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Shinmera, Test the website? 2014-11-24T17:00:11Z Shinmera: No, the code I pasted? 2014-11-24T17:04:54Z guicho: Xach: I posted a reply on github, is a system that always signal an error condition unacceptable? this rather sounds weird, though... 2014-11-24T17:05:35Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-24T17:06:24Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:06:40Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-24T17:07:42Z Bicyclidine: guicho: why is ASK an error instead of just a condition? 2014-11-24T17:08:10Z Shinmera: Abusing the restarts menu to get the user to make a choice seems like a bad solution to me anyway. 2014-11-24T17:08:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:09:08Z theos joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:11:41Z guicho: Bicyclidine, if it is not an error but just a condition, I will handle it with handler-bind and use invoke-debugger. however, it seems like it also end up with build failure. 2014-11-24T17:13:00Z guicho: I agree the choise of subclassing error can be modified anyway. 2014-11-24T17:13:19Z Shinmera: Your code shouldn't "do" anything automatically after being loaded anyway. 2014-11-24T17:13:27Z Shinmera: Loading should only load the code and not 'launch' it. 2014-11-24T17:14:26Z guicho: yes, yes... 2014-11-24T17:15:21Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T17:15:24Z Shinmera thinks that an ASDF launch-op would be a nice thing to have though 2014-11-24T17:17:00Z guicho: btw, I think there are some class of library which is actually an application, like mine, or the other, like Cletris, Climon, which is naturally used to launch something. I hope there would be some mechanism to easily launch such an application from quicklisp. 2014-11-24T17:17:22Z guicho: oh sorry, I wrote without reading your comment, sinmera. 2014-11-24T17:17:37Z Shinmera: Quicklisp deals with managing libraries, so that's not within its scope, really. 2014-11-24T17:18:01Z Shinmera: Also, a function that actually runs your program isn't really an issue anywhere. 2014-11-24T17:18:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:18:17Z Shinmera shrugs 2014-11-24T17:18:24Z guicho: I do not stick with the idea that strong, just to note. 2014-11-24T17:19:00Z guicho: I will try launch-op, thanks. 2014-11-24T17:19:06Z Shinmera: It doesn't exist 2014-11-24T17:19:12Z guicho: :( 2014-11-24T17:19:29Z Shinmera: Someone would have to write it. 2014-11-24T17:20:55Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-24T17:21:25Z trupanka quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-24T17:22:25Z Shinmera: minion: memo for stassats: I stumbled upon a CommonQt error that puzzled me today. Do you know what's going on here? http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/7P 2014-11-24T17:22:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-11-24T17:24:44Z stacksmith joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:26:23Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-24T17:27:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T17:29:16Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:30:34Z sword quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T17:31:03Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:31:29Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T17:33:22Z haom joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:34:35Z beach joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:34:45Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-11-24T17:35:18Z Shinmera: Hello, beach 2014-11-24T17:35:23Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-11-24T17:35:30Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:36:38Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:36:42Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:37:02Z beach: So I finally gathered up the energy to update/rewrite the code that translates HIR to host Common Lisp, taking into account the new UNWIND instruction and variables for multiple values. 2014-11-24T17:38:51Z beach: Later, I will use a similar technique to translate HIR to Common Lisp code that doesn't use the host global environment, and not the host dynamic runtime environment. Then I'll basically have a SICL system that uses the host data types. 2014-11-24T17:40:05Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T17:40:08Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:40:10Z beach: And, it will be reasonably fast, because it uses the host compiler to compile the code generated from HIR to native code. 2014-11-24T17:40:47Z nyef: That sounds like it would be interesting progress. 2014-11-24T17:41:08Z beach: It is. And it's not that hard to do actually. 2014-11-24T17:41:08Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:41:10Z CrLF0710 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:41:21Z nyef: Even better! 2014-11-24T17:42:03Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-24T17:42:28Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2014-11-24T17:42:57Z beach: Earlier today (Central European Time) I confirmed that it is possible to use MAKE-INSTANCE on STANDARD-CLASS to create classes with names of existing classes, such as STANDARD-OBJECT. 2014-11-24T17:42:58Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:43:03Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T17:43:10Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-11-24T17:43:21Z beach: I will use this possibility to create such classes and stick them in a SICL first-class global environment. 2014-11-24T17:43:58Z beach: With this mechanism, I don't need to play tricks with package names when I bootstrap SICL. Or at least I hope so. 2014-11-24T17:44:59Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T17:45:00Z beach: As you can tell, I am pretty excited about the simplification to bootstrapping that first-class global environments will allow. 2014-11-24T17:45:50Z beach: ... except until this morning, I wasn't sure how to do it in a host environment that is not SICL. Now I do (I hope). 2014-11-24T17:46:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T17:46:32Z nyef: That does sound interesting. I know that SBCL's bootstrap setup includes some fairly kludgey bits to work around some of the environment issues. 2014-11-24T17:46:41Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:46:54Z nyef: ... one of which is the SB! vs. SB- package names. 2014-11-24T17:46:57Z CrLF0710` joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:47:06Z beach: Yeah, it needs to play tricks with package names because there is only one global environment. 2014-11-24T17:47:30Z CrLF0710 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T17:47:35Z beach: I read the paper by Krystof. :) 2014-11-24T17:48:32Z beach: I now think I have enough material for a paper to submit to London in 2015. 2014-11-24T17:50:28Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T17:51:34Z beach: nyef: Did you read Krystof's paper: A Sanely Bootstrappable Common Lisp? 2014-11-24T17:52:10Z nyef: I believe so, yes. 2014-11-24T17:52:33Z beach: It's a great paper, and it is very educational to me. 2014-11-24T17:53:20Z beach: For one thing, he did the research that establishes SBCL as the only system that can bootstrap this way. Every other system requires modifying an image, apparently. 2014-11-24T17:54:01Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:54:21Z chu joined #lisp 2014-11-24T17:56:23Z nyef: Even CLISP? 2014-11-24T17:59:40Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:00:01Z beach: I suppose so, yes. 2014-11-24T18:00:12Z beach: Maybe not. 2014-11-24T18:00:21Z drmeister: Hello. 2014-11-24T18:00:45Z beach: drmeister: I haven't had time to process your last email yet. 2014-11-24T18:00:59Z drmeister: No problem. So you have HIR->Common Lisp 2014-11-24T18:01:20Z beach: Yeah, I think so. To host Common Lisp. 2014-11-24T18:01:46Z beach: That's enough to write tests for the AST->HIR translation. 2014-11-24T18:02:06Z drmeister: I was going to ask you how I would proceed converting HIR to LLVM-IR but I can look at how you convert HIR->Common Lisp and get a good idea from that. 2014-11-24T18:02:34Z beach: That was part of the reason why I made it high priority. 2014-11-24T18:04:04Z henesy quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-24T18:04:54Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:05:33Z jasom: pillton: basic-binary-ipc is now working great as the frontend for woo (a non-blocking webserver); I'm going to profile woo to see where the bottleneck is versus cl-async (it benchmarks at something like 17.8k Req/s for BBI vs. 18.3 Req/s for cl-async) 2014-11-24T18:05:54Z beach: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+33H4 2014-11-24T18:06:35Z beach: drmeister: It's the translation of example 6, that |3b| suggested. 2014-11-24T18:06:53Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:07:29Z drmeister: Could you post the link to example 6 so I can check that out. My usual computer has just failed and I have an appointment at the Apple Store at 5:00pm to hopefully get it repaired for the final time. 2014-11-24T18:07:38Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-11-24T18:07:51Z beach: http://metamodular.com/HIR-Examples/index.html 2014-11-24T18:07:56Z beach: Last example. 2014-11-24T18:12:03Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-24T18:14:21Z jasom: Xach is it me, or has the new lexer used by github messed with the new common-lisp projects RSS feed? e.g. identifying dugu9sword/config_geany as "Common Lisp" 2014-11-24T18:15:03Z drmeister: beach: Where do the LET's come from? 2014-11-24T18:15:16Z drmeister: Do you walk through the HIR and gather all of the symbols? 2014-11-24T18:15:27Z beach: Yes. 2014-11-24T18:15:44Z drmeister: So you make multiple passes through the HIR. 2014-11-24T18:15:46Z Xach: jasom: i think it just looks for file types, and there are a bunch of *.lisp files in that repo. 2014-11-24T18:15:54Z beach: Each function starts with a LET of all the variables "owned" by that function. 2014-11-24T18:16:15Z drmeister: And that's the only LET in each function? 2014-11-24T18:16:19Z beach: drmeister: Wow, that sounds like a question from the 1970s 2014-11-24T18:16:26Z jasom: Xach: I count 1 2014-11-24T18:16:45Z beach: drmeister: No, the multiple-values conversions generate lets as well. 2014-11-24T18:16:52Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:17:04Z drmeister: And what would the answer be from 2014? 2014-11-24T18:17:20Z beach: drmeister: I don't remember and I don't care. :) 2014-11-24T18:17:24Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:17:42Z Xach: jasom: hmm, right. i don't know how they figured those percentages, then. 2014-11-24T18:17:44Z beach: drmeister: But probably: yes, several. 2014-11-24T18:18:28Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:18:41Z beach: drmeister: It computes ownerships of variables. It computes basic blocks. Probably more. 2014-11-24T18:19:15Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:20:32Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-11-24T18:20:34Z beach: drmeister: Notice that there is ZERO optimization in there, so there are a lot of useless temporaries. However, a good host compiler knows how to deal with that easily. 2014-11-24T18:20:36Z drmeister: When I call (COMPILE-TOPLEVEL ast) I get a HIR node. It's the node that in the graph has "Start" pointing to it - correct? 2014-11-24T18:20:50Z beach: Yes. 2014-11-24T18:21:20Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:22:25Z beach: By the way, I am very impressed by the standard PPRINT output of that code. 2014-11-24T18:23:32Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:24:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:26:55Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:28:14Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-11-24T18:28:44Z a20141119 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:28:46Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:28:46Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T18:28:46Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:29:21Z drmeister: Which code is that? The generated Common Lisp code? 2014-11-24T18:29:24Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:30:04Z beach: Yes. 2014-11-24T18:30:48Z beach: Maybe it's normal that it's that nice, but then, how did PPRINT "know" that it's code and not random data? 2014-11-24T18:32:22Z drmeister: The pprint facility has a large dispatch table that dispatches on different symbols. 2014-11-24T18:32:56Z drmeister: It knows how to format forms that have special operator symbols as their heads.different special operators. 2014-11-24T18:33:00Z drmeister: beach: I'm still trying to wrap my head around what I do with HIR. I've got these HIR instructions, with predecessors, successors, inputs and outputs. 2014-11-24T18:33:35Z beach: So the Common Lisp translation is not helping? :( 2014-11-24T18:35:00Z drmeister: I haven't been able to look at it yet. While I'm chatting here I've been talking to Apple on the phone trying to diagnose why my laptop screen keeps going black. I've also been trying to get my latest changes to the source out of my laptop up to github. 2014-11-24T18:35:41Z drmeister: I finally figured out that I can plug my iPhone into my laptop through a cable and log into the laptop using the "ServerAuditor" app and commit and push the changes to github. 2014-11-24T18:36:05Z beach: It seems we have a communication problem here. I think it is essential that we figure out what the problem is. Perhaps you don't know about representing programs as flowcharts? 2014-11-24T18:36:10Z drmeister: I'm also pulling your changes and my changes into my desktop because I'm going to have to switch to that for a while. 2014-11-24T18:36:42Z drmeister: I thought I do, but I've never done it before. 2014-11-24T18:36:51Z drmeister: No, let's say I don't. 2014-11-24T18:37:12Z beach: That would explain the communication problem. 2014-11-24T18:37:32Z drmeister: I last used flowcharts 25 years ago when I took comp-sci classes. I never looked back. 2014-11-24T18:37:48Z drmeister: I walk plenty of graphs though. 2014-11-24T18:38:57Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out what to keep track of when I walk the graphs and where I put the information. I think I'll be using my lexical environments. At this point I shouldn't need anything other than the HIR. 2014-11-24T18:39:36Z beach: Yes, as you can see the lexical environment is represented by those LETs. 2014-11-24T18:39:56Z beach: Now, 2014-11-24T18:40:08Z Krystof: beach: SBCL is the only implementation where EVAL is written in Lisp that can bootstrap sanely 2014-11-24T18:40:16Z beach: If you apply the escape analysis 2014-11-24T18:40:29Z wws joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:40:41Z beach: then you can tell where to allocate your variables. 2014-11-24T18:41:08Z Krystof: xcl, abcl, clisp have the alternate strategy of implementing EVAL in not-Lisp, which then means they don't do the image manipulation / introspection, but also, um, you're implementing Lisp in not-Lisp, which sucks 2014-11-24T18:41:09Z drmeister: The escape analysis being every variable is on the stack unless it is shared by more than one function. 2014-11-24T18:41:47Z Krystof: (`EVAL' is sort of metasyntactic there for `enough of a non-trivial compiler / evaluator') 2014-11-24T18:41:48Z beach: Krystof: Yes, I see. 2014-11-24T18:41:48Z billstclair quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-11-24T18:41:52Z wws is now known as billstclair 2014-11-24T18:41:55Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T18:41:55Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:42:15Z beach: drmeister: Correct. 2014-11-24T18:42:29Z drmeister: beach: Where is the HIR->CL converter? 2014-11-24T18:42:40Z enitiz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T18:42:49Z beach: drmeister: HIR-interpreter 2014-11-24T18:42:50Z drmeister: I just got everything updated. 2014-11-24T18:43:05Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:43:11Z drmeister: Code/Cleavir/HIR-interpreter? I don't see that - I may not have everything in place. 2014-11-24T18:43:23Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:43:42Z beach: Krystof: I can't remember now; did you just exclude those implementations in your paper, or did you mention what you just said in it? 2014-11-24T18:43:58Z drmeister: Code/Cleavir/Backends/HIR-interpreter 2014-11-24T18:44:13Z beach: Yes. 2014-11-24T18:44:57Z Krystof: I'm pretty sure I said it 2014-11-24T18:45:05Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T18:45:18Z beach: Krystof: I'll read it again before I submit to ELS 2015. 2014-11-24T18:45:42Z Krystof: first few paragraphs of section 3.1 2014-11-24T18:45:52Z drmeister: beach: Do you define a BASIC-BLOCK class? 2014-11-24T18:46:19Z beach: Krystof: OK, thanks. I probably just skipped over it because I am not interested in alternative implementations of EVAL. 2014-11-24T18:46:25Z beach: drmeister: No 2014-11-24T18:46:30Z Krystof: beach: me neither :) 2014-11-24T18:47:24Z drmeister: beach: How are basic-blocks represented? 2014-11-24T18:47:32Z beach: drmeister: A basic block is a list of three elements: the first instruction, the last instruction, and the "owner" which is either NIL or an ENTER-INSTRUCTION. But I believe that is explained somewhere. 2014-11-24T18:48:13Z drmeister: beach: Got it. 2014-11-24T18:48:31Z beach: drmeister: It's all explained in a comment in Cleavier/Basic-blocks/basic-blocks.lisp 2014-11-24T18:48:48Z ggole: No predecessor list? 2014-11-24T18:49:03Z beach: No 2014-11-24T18:49:08Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-24T18:49:15Z drmeister: And a var is just a symbol created by gensym? 2014-11-24T18:49:37Z beach: drmeister: Where? 2014-11-24T18:49:42Z ggole: I take it that information is carried by the instructions themselves. 2014-11-24T18:49:44Z beach: In the Common Lisp version of HIR? Yes. 2014-11-24T18:49:57Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T18:49:58Z beach: ggole: Correct. 2014-11-24T18:53:37Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:55:11Z beach: ggole: I am betting that computing basic blocs is so cheap that it is easier to recompute them than to maintain them and update them for each transformation of the flow graph. 2014-11-24T18:55:35Z beach: I may be wrong of course, which is why I put in "meters" to check that. 2014-11-24T18:55:44Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:55:54Z ggole: Well, you can just change it :) 2014-11-24T18:56:02Z beach: Exactly. 2014-11-24T18:56:25Z beach: But I will only do that if the current decision turns out to be a performance problem. 2014-11-24T18:56:26Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:56:34Z beach: So I need to collect statistics. 2014-11-24T18:56:35Z Puffin quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-24T18:57:17Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:57:17Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T18:57:17Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:57:36Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T18:57:42Z ggole: The SSA IRs I've seen tend to reuse predecessor lists by having them in the block and having multiple phi instructions point at the block 2014-11-24T18:57:57Z ggole: But your IR is not in SSA form. 2014-11-24T18:58:27Z beach: Not HIR, but the next step (MIR) can be. 2014-11-24T18:58:29Z ggole: Might go some way to explaining my (slight) surprise. 2014-11-24T18:58:40Z ggole: Right. 2014-11-24T19:00:13Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:00:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:00:31Z beach: ggole: One of my favorite activities is to revisit some of the decisions that were made by the "CS community" in the 60s and 70s, because I want to check that the reasons for those decisions are still valid. 2014-11-24T19:00:46Z beach: Turns out, most of those reasons are no longer valid. 2014-11-24T19:01:45Z beach: But they are typically taken for granted without questioning them. 2014-11-24T19:02:01Z ggole: Mmm, we are a conservative bunch 2014-11-24T19:02:34Z beach: True, and that is good for people like me, because we can then write papers about what is no longer valid :) 2014-11-24T19:02:45Z ggole: Compiler design is probably one of the things that has improved a fair bit though 2014-11-24T19:03:35Z ggole: The basic research by people like Cytron is now very widely applied rather than left to moulder like much PL work. 2014-11-24T19:03:38Z jevankovich joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:03:44Z beach: ggole: Well, I am currently questioning the importance of the SSA-proper of SSA form. 2014-11-24T19:04:56Z ggole: Once you start optimizing, SSA or something very similar becomes pretty obviously necessary (or at least, beneficial). 2014-11-24T19:04:58Z beach: My hypothesis is that the important property of SSA form is the fact that all "versions" of a variable are maintained. 2014-11-24T19:05:21Z ggole: Otherwise you end up regenerating the same "this variable does/doesn't change here" for each new analysis you do. 2014-11-24T19:05:41Z ggole: Doing it once and then using it multiple times is a good approach. 2014-11-24T19:05:42Z rhollor quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:05:43Z beach: I think we have had this discussion before. 2014-11-24T19:05:55Z ggole: Yeah, probably :) 2014-11-24T19:06:06Z dfox quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:07:01Z beach: And I haven't done the research yet. It would involve investigating all common algorithms to see what property of SSA they actually use. 2014-11-24T19:07:23Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:07:36Z beach: That's not a paper; that's a PhD thesis for someone who is interested. 2014-11-24T19:08:40Z dfox joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:10:08Z ggole: Right. There are "overview" papers that are done that summarize segments of the literature, and they seem to usually be a thesis-level thing. 2014-11-24T19:10:13Z ggole: Or at least a masters. 2014-11-24T19:11:08Z matko joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:11:28Z beach: Indeed. The common thought mistake is to say that if SSA is used then algorithm X works great, then that implies that for algorithm X to work, SSA has to be used. 2014-11-24T19:12:19Z beach: My job is to recognize the incorrect logic, and check whether there is really an "if and only if" in there. 2014-11-24T19:12:22Z jasom: beach: it is true that you will have to reinvent techniques for algorithm X if you want to apply it 2014-11-24T19:12:27Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T19:12:37Z beach: So? :) 2014-11-24T19:12:47Z jasom: beach: since the literature is *terrible* about documenting what assumptions are needed for the algorithm to work 2014-11-24T19:13:03Z paul0` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T19:13:04Z beach: jasom: I totally agree. 2014-11-24T19:13:19Z beach: jasom: And that's how I justify my salary. 2014-11-24T19:13:29Z jasom: beach: where do you work? 2014-11-24T19:13:40Z paul0` joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:13:42Z beach: University of Bordeaux. 2014-11-24T19:14:03Z vinleod quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T19:14:04Z vinleod_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:14:25Z jasom looks forward to reading the results 2014-11-24T19:14:43Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:14:55Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:15:20Z vinleod_ is now known as vinleod 2014-11-24T19:16:13Z beach: jasom: It's part of the job. Take some domain, look at what has been done, put it in the context of today, question the assumptions based on that, then question the results since they were based on the wrong assumptions, and finally improve. 2014-11-24T19:17:39Z beach: jasom: One of my favorite researchers is Paul Wilson. I was lucky to work with him for a year at UT. He basically rendered all previous research on memory allocation strategies invalid with a single paper. 2014-11-24T19:19:03Z rhollor quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:19:50Z beach: jasom: Once I presented some related research here in Bordeaux, and I happened to mention this fact, and one of my colleagues said something like "Oh, so you mean what I spend several years of my life researching is completely bogus?". 2014-11-24T19:20:18Z beach: jasom: I wasn't sure what to answer. 2014-11-24T19:20:31Z Xach: "The journey is the reward?" 2014-11-24T19:20:52Z jasom: beach: "You win some, you lose some" 2014-11-24T19:21:12Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:21:27Z rhollor: I don't understand why this doesn't work: http://paste.lisp.org/+33H7 [1:17pm] think it has something to do with the "from (car (car *range*)) to etc.." part of it. Like, something is wrong when it tries to use those numbers as a range, but I don't know what 2014-11-24T19:21:41Z beach: Xach: Indeed. That's what I express here: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html 2014-11-24T19:22:16Z jasom: beach: are you talking about the "Dynamic Storage Allocation" paper? 2014-11-24T19:22:37Z acieroid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:22:37Z beach: jasom: The allocation survey paper. Yes. 2014-11-24T19:22:50Z beach: I forget the title. 2014-11-24T19:24:26Z ggole: Dynamic Storage Allocation - A Survey and Critical Review. 2014-11-24T19:24:32Z ggole: Wilson, et al 2014-11-24T19:24:36Z ggole: A classic :) 2014-11-24T19:24:39Z beach: Sounds right. 2014-11-24T19:24:42Z Xach: rhollor: it would be easier to understand with something like this: (destructuring-bind ((start-x end-x) (start-y end-y)) *range* ...). It can be hard to mentally unpack a sequence of car car cdr car cddr etc. 2014-11-24T19:25:33Z Xach: rhollor: I think the problem with the original code is that you want the cadr, not the cdr, of *range*. But I haven't evaluated it for real to check. 2014-11-24T19:25:47Z Grue`: rhollor: cdr of a proper list is always a list, and you're treating it as an atom 2014-11-24T19:26:07Z beach: ggole: Paul taught me lots of stuff. Frequently over a micro-brewery beer near the UT campus. 2014-11-24T19:26:18Z beach: Those were the day. 2014-11-24T19:26:20Z beach: s 2014-11-24T19:27:17Z rhollor: Grue`: no I'm not, that's why I have car twice on the cdr 2014-11-24T19:27:20Z jasom very nearly went to UT for undergrad 2014-11-24T19:28:07Z oGMo: toronto? 2014-11-24T19:28:18Z jasom: oGMo: Texas 2014-11-24T19:28:18Z rhollor: Xach: when I evaluate the values my self them come out approprietly 2014-11-24T19:28:23Z oGMo: jasom: ah 2014-11-24T19:28:31Z Xach: do them? 2014-11-24T19:28:37Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:28:42Z rhollor: wait.. I just realized the porblem 2014-11-24T19:29:04Z Grue`: you have to bare cdr in the inner loop 2014-11-24T19:29:08Z Grue`: *two 2014-11-24T19:29:08Z rhollor: I'm using the 'to' keyword, when I should use 'downto' ... I think 2014-11-24T19:29:17Z beach: oGMo: The University is a great place for CS. 2014-11-24T19:29:47Z jasom: If I had known I was going to switch to CS I would definitely have picked UT over Purdue 2014-11-24T19:29:51Z oGMo: beach: texas? not familiar, but, cool 2014-11-24T19:29:54Z beach: oGMo: When I was there, Edsgar Dijkstra was part of the faculty. 2014-11-24T19:30:15Z rhollor: yup, changing it to downto helped 2014-11-24T19:30:18Z oGMo: beach: :o 2014-11-24T19:31:27Z rhollor: also, instead of the cdr and car, I used first and second for verbosity and whatnot 2014-11-24T19:31:32Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:31:32Z beach: oGMo: We used to amuse ourselves (or each other) by criticizing the bad English of (native US) candidates for faculty positions during their presentations. 2014-11-24T19:32:07Z beach: oGMo: Interestingly, neither Dijkstra nor myself are native speakers of English. 2014-11-24T19:32:23Z jasom: beach: by definition, native speakers can't have bad English :P 2014-11-24T19:32:27Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:32:37Z rhollor: so in the end I have http://paste.lisp.org/+33H8 2014-11-24T19:32:48Z beach: jasom: Interesting theory :) 2014-11-24T19:33:25Z oGMo: beach: yeah i notice that just on irc heh 2014-11-24T19:33:34Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:33:42Z beach: oGMo: Yeah. :) 2014-11-24T19:33:55Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-24T19:34:09Z Xach: rhollor: it's often much nicer to read code with accessors defined, e.g. instead of using low-level structure functions like car, cdr, first, rest, etc, define something like (defun start-x (range) (first (first range))) (defun end-x (range) ...) and use them. 2014-11-24T19:34:25Z Xach: rhollor: Then, if you decide to use a different representation for ranges later, only a certain portion of code must be adapted. 2014-11-24T19:36:01Z rhollor: Xach: okay then 2014-11-24T19:36:19Z zolk3ri quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-24T19:38:49Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:40:07Z beach: rhollor: Check out the "luv-slides" by Pitman and Norvig, page 9: The quotation from Charles Simonyi. It definitely applies to me since my memory was crap long before I started writing code. 2014-11-24T19:41:16Z ggole: Yeah. Reading code written by somebody with a strong memory can be painful. 2014-11-24T19:42:07Z beach: ggole: Which tends to be most code I attempt to read :( 2014-11-24T19:42:07Z beach: 2014-11-24T19:44:25Z rhollor quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:44:36Z beach: Thought the problems drmeister seems to have with my code, indicate that I still must improve my communication skills for people like him, and especially myself in a few weeks or more. 2014-11-24T19:45:04Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T19:46:01Z ggole: That's hard. :( 2014-11-24T19:46:39Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:46:44Z ggole: It's tough remembering what it was like when there was no connection between your program and your personal model of the program. 2014-11-24T19:46:52Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:47:24Z tristero joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:47:34Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-24T19:47:47Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:49:13Z beach: ggole: I try to minimize the difference between the two, and the time that the difference exists. But I believe what you are referring to is called "debugging". 2014-11-24T19:51:07Z ggole: I had in mind the shock when you dive into somebody else's slightly foreign codebase and find yourself thinking "wtf is this?" a lot. 2014-11-24T19:51:25Z beach: I see. Sure. 2014-11-24T19:51:33Z ggole: Although there is probably a fairly strong relation there. 2014-11-24T19:51:43Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T19:52:48Z beach: ggole: Thing is, it happens to me a lot too, because of my extremely bad memory. So that "somebody else" is often me. 2014-11-24T19:54:30Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-24T19:54:37Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:54:45Z codeburg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T19:55:17Z beach: I need to continue this discussion because it is bedtime for me. 2014-11-24T19:55:26Z beach left #lisp 2014-11-24T19:55:31Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:56:02Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:56:41Z RedEight joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:58:00Z jasom: actually, that parallel gives me a thought; when debugging a program you wrote, you are trying to find where the program fails to follow your mental model. When exploring code you didn't write, you're trying to find where your mental model fails to follow the program 2014-11-24T19:58:33Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-11-24T19:58:56Z ggole: Right. 2014-11-24T19:59:13Z ggole: And at first the "debugging discomfort" is everywhere because there's no mental model at all, it's all new. 2014-11-24T19:59:20Z jasom: And when debugging a program you've never seen before, you are doing both 2014-11-24T19:59:28Z ggole: Always fun, that. 2014-11-24T19:59:47Z jasom: ggole: I spend most of my time doing that 2014-11-24T20:00:01Z ggole: It's a good way to not suffer from an outdated model though. 2014-11-24T20:00:48Z ggole: Working on an assumption that is a bit wrong or was correct but has quietly become wrong is a great way to lose time. 2014-11-24T20:01:18Z jasom: ggole: which is why I try to ignore comments as much as possible 2014-11-24T20:01:55Z ggole: Mmm. 2014-11-24T20:03:09Z ggole: It can be interesting to try to read comments (and function/variable names) antagonistically 2014-11-24T20:03:27Z ggole: That is, you assume that they are trying to trick you into some subtle trap, and go looking for what it could be. 2014-11-24T20:04:00Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:04:19Z ggole: There's often something, which perhaps was accidentally guarded against discovery by a suggestive comment or name. 2014-11-24T20:04:22Z jevankovich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:04:37Z ggole: (That's lots of work though.) 2014-11-24T20:05:18Z jasom: In terms of code documentation, I find the ordering (from least to most useful) to be variable-names, comments, function names 2014-11-24T20:06:47Z Digby joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:06:47Z jasom: It is very rare that there is a function named "frobozzTheFibnitz" for which it's not a bug for it to fail to frobozz the fibnitz. It's much more common to see a comment at the top of a function saying "the fibnitz will be frobozzed at the end of the function" to be totally bogus. Or to have a variable named frobozzedFibnitz for which the fibnitz is never actually frobozzed 2014-11-24T20:07:14Z ggole: Yeah. 2014-11-24T20:08:06Z ggole: The usual trap there is that it will check some condition before frobozzing - this usually isn't reflected in the name. 2014-11-24T20:08:43Z ggole: It'd be pleasant if there were a lexical convention for such cases. 2014-11-24T20:09:19Z nyef: Even if there IS, you'd have to worry about how well any given piece of code conforms to the convention. 2014-11-24T20:09:44Z ggole: Sure enough. 2014-11-24T20:10:49Z wedgeV joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:11:23Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:12:49Z ggole: Yikes, it's late. 2014-11-24T20:12:52Z ggole quit 2014-11-24T20:17:27Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:18:24Z haom left #lisp 2014-11-24T20:19:03Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:21:42Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:24:25Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:26:31Z theseb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:32:58Z Digby quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:34:37Z mearnsh quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T20:34:37Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:36:06Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-11-24T20:36:23Z joseph07 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:36:41Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-24T20:37:35Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:38:58Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:39:26Z codeburg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T20:39:51Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:40:12Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-11-24T20:40:31Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:40:38Z theseb: you know how some people teach their kids chess at an early age to develop their minds? 2014-11-24T20:40:50Z theseb: what if someone taught a young son LISP? 2014-11-24T20:40:51Z towodo quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-24T20:40:55Z theseb: now that would be hardcore 2014-11-24T20:41:01Z theseb: his mind would be enlightened at an early age 2014-11-24T20:41:14Z katco: theseb: i'm planning on teaching my daughter actually 2014-11-24T20:42:14Z theseb: katco: i have a son....we're in the same boat! 2014-11-24T20:42:25Z katco: theseb: :) how old? 2014-11-24T20:42:26Z theseb: katco: i do have a concern...maybe you do too.... 2014-11-24T20:42:44Z theseb: katco: chess maybe exciting for young kids due to the social aspect and the game...but 2014-11-24T20:42:57Z theseb: katco: why would a child be excited by the logical beauty and purity of lisp? 2014-11-24T20:43:06Z theseb: katco: 12 yrs old btw 2014-11-24T20:43:18Z Xach: Same reason as anyone else: To get rich making web apps and selling them to Yahoo 2014-11-24T20:43:21Z theseb: s/maybe/may be/ 2014-11-24T20:43:37Z katco: theseb: i wouldn't expect them to be. i'd be using it as a tool to be excited about the wonder of creating something from nothing, of having a skill for life. lisp would be a side-effect 2014-11-24T20:43:41Z joseph07: theseb: many children are excited to build things 2014-11-24T20:44:29Z theseb: katco, joseph07: i'm guessing it won't work unless you quickly make software stuff with graphics and explosions and other visual candy 2014-11-24T20:44:29Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:45:01Z joseph07: theseb: Oh, I don't know. When I was a kid I was pretty excited just to see text displayed on stdout 2014-11-24T20:45:12Z katco: theseb: nah, i was quite excited with text programs a child. i expect with some encouragement she could be too :) 2014-11-24T20:45:16Z larme joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:45:23Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:45:32Z nyef: ... Whatever happened to LOGO for these purposes? It's Lisp with a different surface syntax and a particular graphics library. 2014-11-24T20:46:07Z theseb: nyef: dunno if minecraft and other 3D games got them spoiled 2014-11-24T20:46:09Z nyef: (A graphics library well suited to controlling a physical device to do output, at that.) 2014-11-24T20:46:17Z theseb: maybe the bar was raised while we grew up 2014-11-24T20:47:35Z nyef: It might have been raised, but being able to write a program to cause a pile of legos and electronics to draw a cat face is surely still cool. 2014-11-24T20:47:36Z kuanyui quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T20:47:58Z Petit_Dejeuner__: nyef, Racket might be the modern version of logo then. 2014-11-24T20:48:05Z theseb: Xach: by your argument kids would want to live and breathe PHP! :) 2014-11-24T20:48:45Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:48:52Z Petit_Dejeuner__: It's got a library sort of like vecto, but it can show images in the REPL. There's also a basic games library built in., 2014-11-24T20:49:09Z nyef: ... I wasn't aware that PHP was available in aerosolized form...? 2014-11-24T20:49:18Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner__: yea..Racket does look nice.....that may be way to go 2014-11-24T20:49:25Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:49:45Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner__, joseph07, katco: oh snap..i'm surprised no one has mentioned Scratch yet? anyone heard of that? 2014-11-24T20:50:05Z kuanyui joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:50:05Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: notice that IRC by necessity basically only connects people in the same gravitationnal well, therefore with sensibly synchronous times. Therefore "earlier today" doesn't depend on the time zone (or the altitude or lattitude). :-) 2014-11-24T20:50:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-11-24T20:50:06Z LoicLisp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T20:50:16Z Petit_Dejeuner__: Scratch looks too weird to me. 2014-11-24T20:50:22Z Petit_Dejeuner__: I'm not a 12 year old kdi though. 2014-11-24T20:50:25Z Petit_Dejeuner__: kid* 2014-11-24T20:50:34Z acieroid joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:51:05Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:51:22Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner__: making programs by moving lego blocks around! 2014-11-24T20:52:13Z lavokad joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:52:23Z dim: is there a more idiomatic form than (setf mylist (append mysist temp-list))? 2014-11-24T20:52:54Z Xach: dim: some people define appendf in their utility collection. 2014-11-24T20:53:00Z H4ns: dim: you can use alexandria:appendf 2014-11-24T20:53:17Z dim: I think I already depend on alexandria, thanks 2014-11-24T20:54:07Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:54:39Z Petit_Dejeuner__: theseb, There's a mod for minecraft that lets kids control things ingame with Lua. 2014-11-24T20:55:26Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner__: nice 2014-11-24T20:55:27Z joseph07: Petit_Dejeuner__: oh that's true. There's also a fairly good modding framework. I helped my little brother create his own mod using bukkit 2014-11-24T20:56:04Z joseph07: Petit_Dejeuner__: but that's java so not exactly enlightening 2014-11-24T20:56:24Z Petit_Dejeuner__: joseph07, clojure ;) 2014-11-24T20:57:10Z joseph07: Petit_Dejeuner__: ah sure enough and it's been done 2014-11-24T20:57:11Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T20:57:21Z theseb: python 2014-11-24T20:57:35Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T20:58:18Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-11-24T20:58:33Z joseph07: Is this channel specifically for common lisp? 2014-11-24T20:58:40Z jasom: joseph07: yes 2014-11-24T20:59:21Z joseph07: jasom: Thanks. Looked that way from the topic, but thought I'd check 2014-11-24T21:03:32Z pootler quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-24T21:05:02Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:05:18Z eli joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:05:49Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:06:16Z dim: and now pgloader should get a little faster for migrating from mysql, thanks to that appendf ;-) (actually, it has very little to do with it other than the fact that I did fancy using it here) ;-) 2014-11-24T21:10:57Z sword joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:12:44Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:13:19Z alexey1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T21:14:26Z Oddity quit 2014-11-24T21:14:56Z jasom: what's the approximate overhead of sb-pcl:fast-method versus a bare function call? 2014-11-24T21:18:04Z pppp2 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:20:40Z vi1 joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:21:16Z larme quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-24T21:21:55Z larme joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:26:11Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:26:13Z jasom: hmm, I'm seeing a huge overhead to cffi:foreign-bitfield-value when all parameters are constant; shouldn't a compiler macro take care of that? 2014-11-24T21:26:17Z Xach: aerique_: what's the state of libokra? 2014-11-24T21:26:25Z pppp2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T21:27:17Z Xach: oh. stalled? 2014-11-24T21:27:20Z Xach disables the source in ql 2014-11-24T21:29:19Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:29:19Z jasom: okay, adding #. to the beginning of that call got me the biggest speedup for smallest edit distance ever 2014-11-24T21:29:19Z bb010g joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:29:21Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-11-24T21:29:31Z jasom: 15% of the time was in the cffi:foreign-bitfield-value call previously 2014-11-24T21:31:38Z Bicyclidine: probably an easy compiler macro, too 2014-11-24T21:31:53Z jasom has never written a compiler macro before; perhaps this will be the first 2014-11-24T21:32:01Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:32:12Z jasom: where is best point of contact for cffi devs? Mailing list? 2014-11-24T21:32:16Z Davidbrcz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-24T21:32:41Z pjb: Yes. 2014-11-24T21:35:45Z Xach: I think that is a very good point of contact. I don't know if it's the best. 2014-11-24T21:37:17Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-24T21:39:09Z jasom: looks like there's already an outstanding pull request for this: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/77975b7444b6af653195870041081cdaba6503a7 2014-11-24T21:39:58Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-24T21:40:01Z pinupgeek quit (Quit: pinupgeek) 2014-11-24T21:41:13Z Bicyclidine: i wonder if you need a notinline to have the compiler macro just call the function it's for. 2014-11-24T21:43:36Z jasom: anyway with that single change the basic-binary-ipc version of woo is now faster than cl-async by about 10% (on the admittedly stupid benchmark that ships with woo) 2014-11-24T21:44:43Z octophore quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-11-24T21:45:16Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:46:57Z jasom: wow 17 seconds for someone to respond to my comment on the github pull request; that may be a new record 2014-11-24T21:47:21Z oGMo: sorry ;) 2014-11-24T21:48:54Z jasom: oGMo: you're Ryan Pavlik? 2014-11-24T21:49:24Z oGMo: jasom: yeah, i just saw the email .. like i noted i don't have the orignal code i was testing it for though ;/ 2014-11-24T21:50:05Z jasom: ah, well what I know about A) how cffi works internally and B) compiler macros would fit on a post-it note, so I don't know what I can do other than smoke test on my use-case. 2014-11-24T21:50:13Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T21:50:31Z oGMo: i would verify that it works with and without, i guess 2014-11-24T21:51:21Z oGMo: jasom: compiler macros are pretty simple, you get to spit out either a new chunk of code or the original form, in which case it gets treated as a function call, basically 2014-11-24T21:52:06Z Bicyclidine: you can suppress expansion with (locally (notinline foreign-bitfield-value) (foreign-bitfield-value ...)) so there's your without test case 2014-11-24T21:52:11Z oGMo: testing with constantp lets you determine if stuff is specified as a constant value or not, though it's rather limited 2014-11-24T21:52:25Z oGMo: Bicyclidine: that too 2014-11-24T21:52:36Z Bicyclidine: oh, the constantp should probably use the macroexpansion environment 2014-11-24T21:52:48Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't matter on any implementation i can think of but it's good to be paranoid 2014-11-24T21:53:29Z Bicyclidine: actually it does matter on sbcl and probably others due to macroexpansion. how about that. 2014-11-24T21:53:35Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T21:54:22Z Bicyclidine: i'll just write a comment, i guess 2014-11-24T21:54:23Z oGMo: probably, the patch looks early '12 and i had just gotten back into CL a few months before i think 2014-11-24T21:54:42Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-11-24T21:54:58Z ilhami quit (Changing host) 2014-11-24T21:54:59Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-24T21:55:02Z duggiefresh quit 2014-11-24T21:55:22Z Bicyclidine: lack of constant-form-value makes the eval tricky 2014-11-24T21:55:37Z Bicyclidine: it's like they tried to hobble these, i swear 2014-11-24T21:55:43Z oGMo: i should check elsewhere that i've done similar code though :P good to know 2014-11-24T21:55:44Z Bicyclidine: forget the environment then 2014-11-24T21:56:36Z oGMo: lack of facilities in compiler macros are one of my few complaints about CL ;/ 2014-11-24T21:58:15Z Bicyclidine: i wrote a little library to beef it up with implementation-specific stuff a while ago. obviously a bit much to pull in for this, of course. 2014-11-24T21:59:31Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T21:59:32Z oGMo: yeah this _should_ be a simple case, though i recall rewriting something similar at a point when i found it wasn't as robust as i'd hoped 2014-11-24T22:00:22Z Bicyclidine: you could do (constantp foo [whatever]) (symbol-macrolet ((x foo)) (foreign-bitfield-value x ...)) and it wouldn't optimize it as is, or with a change to using constantp env it would bug out 2014-11-24T22:00:33Z Bicyclidine: i doubt this is a very practical issue, though 2014-11-24T22:05:08Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:06:40Z toors joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:08:06Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:08:07Z thawes_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T22:11:10Z mguzmann joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:15:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:17:55Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-24T22:18:42Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:19:55Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-24T22:23:10Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:26:27Z toors quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-24T22:29:10Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-24T22:31:12Z ilhami quit (Quit: Bye!!!) 2014-11-24T22:36:20Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:40:23Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:41:23Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-11-24T22:44:58Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:45:09Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:47:24Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:47:35Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:51:14Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:53:37Z maxpeck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-24T22:54:19Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-24T22:54:30Z paul0`` joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:54:45Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-11-24T22:56:43Z mguzmann quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:57:47Z paul0` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-24T22:57:49Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-24T22:59:22Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-24T23:01:59Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-11-24T23:05:03Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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