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I've been running my static analyzer and I pushed a new version of Clasp that adds ASDF support and cleaned up a few things. 2014-11-21T03:36:04Z drmeister: Anything new going on? 2014-11-21T03:36:10Z beach: No rush. 2014-11-21T03:36:25Z beach: No, I just fixed a few problems with the AST-to-HIR code. 2014-11-21T03:36:34Z |3b|: beach: i think discussion in the logs answered most of my questions about non-local exit stuff 2014-11-21T03:36:37Z beach: And then I reran the examples on the web page. 2014-11-21T03:36:45Z beach: |3b|: Great! 2014-11-21T03:37:04Z beach: |3b|: You made me nervous there that I might have missed something essential in my approach. 2014-11-21T03:37:24Z |3b|: main one remaining is whether implementations can expand the enter/unwind stuff before the escape analysis etc passes 2014-11-21T03:37:47Z beach: "expand"? 2014-11-21T03:38:28Z |3b|: i'd probably be using an underlying runtime's throw-catch to implement it, so for the general case would need to allocate a tag for each block 2014-11-21T03:39:05Z beach: Now you are talking Clasp, right? 2014-11-21T03:39:37Z |3b|: most of the time that tag wouldn't be used, so that allocation could be optimized out, most of the remaining time it is only used locally, so either stack allocated or optimized out, most of the rest closure doesn't escape, so stack allocated 2014-11-21T03:39:39Z drmeister: |3b| This sounds very similar to my questions. 2014-11-21T03:39:50Z |3b| would be targeting dalvik VM if anything 2014-11-21T03:39:53Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-11-21T03:40:07Z |3b|: but yeah, similar to clasp which wants to interact with c++ exceptions 2014-11-21T03:40:16Z beach: nyef: Hello. CLIMatis will have a license equivalent to public domain. 2014-11-21T03:40:31Z beach: nyef: Maybe you are right that it is a vector-graphics library. 2014-11-21T03:40:54Z drmeister: |3b| How would you translate the UNWIND HIR instructions into throw-catch? 2014-11-21T03:41:06Z |3b|: UNWIND sounds like throw 2014-11-21T03:41:33Z drmeister: Yes. 2014-11-21T03:41:39Z |3b|: i haven't looked at dalvik in a while, so no idea how i'd translate the catch part 2014-11-21T03:42:03Z |3b|: if i'm not confusing it with flash VM, it is just specifying a range of instructions where the catch is active or something 2014-11-21T03:42:15Z drmeister: I'm at the same stage of understanding. 2014-11-21T03:42:53Z nyef: ... At some point I really do need to settle down to figuring out how to do table-based unwind. 2014-11-21T03:43:01Z |3b|: though with luck it can translate to some sort of local jump if no closures are involved 2014-11-21T03:43:02Z julianb quit (Quit: Goodbye) 2014-11-21T03:43:21Z beach: nyef: "table based"? 2014-11-21T03:43:29Z nyef: (It's more expensive for unwind than the way that SBCL does it now, but cheaper for setting up the unwind block.) 2014-11-21T03:43:45Z beach: How does it work? 2014-11-21T03:43:57Z beach: ... and what does SBCL do? 2014-11-21T03:44:22Z nyef: Using out-of-line debugging information to explain to the unwinder where to find frame links, dynamic state that needs reverting, and where to resume execution. 2014-11-21T03:44:39Z ggole: So-called "zero cost" exceptions 2014-11-21T03:45:01Z ggole: Which are much more expensive than the alternatives when actually used, afaik 2014-11-21T03:45:04Z nyef: SBCL currently has a linked list of "unwind-protect" and "catch" blocks on the stack, with each containing information about the dynamic environment, landing pads, and whatnot. 2014-11-21T03:45:05Z beach: I see. 2014-11-21T03:45:17Z drmeister: I think I see how to do it. 2014-11-21T03:45:26Z nyef: ggole: Right, you have your choice of cheaper setup or cheaper unwind. 2014-11-21T03:45:49Z drmeister: LLVM uses Itanium ABI Zero-cost Exception Handling 2014-11-21T03:45:57Z nyef: ggole: So the "ideal" depends on how often you set up, how often you unwind, and how expensive the constant factors are. 2014-11-21T03:46:12Z |3b|: beach: finishing my earlier thought: so i'd want to expand things so that the allocation of the tag was explicit if further HIR optimizations could optimize it away if not referenced, or possibly only locally referenced, unless HIR already distinguished those cases enough for me to compile them differently later 2014-11-21T03:46:34Z ggole: nyef: and of course that differs depending on language, what your users use exceptions for, etc 2014-11-21T03:46:45Z nyef: Yup! 2014-11-21T03:47:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T03:47:42Z beach: |3b|: Got it. The optimizations that I will do at the HIR level are type inference and escape analysis. 2014-11-21T03:48:04Z beach: ... and inlining. 2014-11-21T03:48:08Z drmeister: In this example http://metamodular.com/HIR-Examples/example6.png the funcall to G1817 would use an INVOKE rather than a CALL instruction. 2014-11-21T03:48:52Z drmeister: The INVOKE defines two basic blocks where execution continues on return from the INVOKE instruction. The first is the normal return. 2014-11-21T03:49:05Z drmeister: The second is a basic block that contains a "landing pad". 2014-11-21T03:50:04Z drmeister: The "landing pad" would check the exception that was thrown by the UNWIND HIR instruction and if it is recognized it would do do whatever cleanup was necessary and then continue at the instruction where the UNWIND HIR instruction points to. 2014-11-21T03:50:36Z drmeister: If it wasn't recognized it would do whatever unwinding was necessary and then rethrow the exception. 2014-11-21T03:50:58Z ggole: What about restarts? 2014-11-21T03:51:28Z drmeister: What do you mean by the term "restarts"? 2014-11-21T03:51:36Z beach: ggole: Common Lisp conditions and restarts can be implemented portably on top of special variable bindings. 2014-11-21T03:51:50Z ggole: Oh, I didn't know that. 2014-11-21T03:52:06Z beach: You need catch/thow of course. 2014-11-21T03:52:44Z beach: Yeah. It's quite beautiful actually. 2014-11-21T03:52:50Z drmeister: Oh, Common Lisp restarts. 2014-11-21T03:53:44Z ggole: So I imagine you have a dispatch point that looks at the special to decide how to proceed. 2014-11-21T03:53:47Z drmeister: Beach - are there other non-local exit HIR instructions? You show how UNWIND implements BLOCK/RETURN-FROM. What about CATCH/THROW and TAGBODY/GO. Or are you going to point me at the metacircular page? 2014-11-21T03:54:11Z beach: They all use the same mechanism. 2014-11-21T03:55:01Z drmeister: They all use UNWIND? 2014-11-21T03:55:04Z beach: Yes. 2014-11-21T03:55:48Z beach can't remember what he had in mind for CATCH/THROW. 2014-11-21T03:55:55Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T03:56:05Z ruste quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T03:56:28Z ruste joined #lisp 2014-11-21T03:56:29Z ruste_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T03:56:39Z ruste quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T03:56:48Z nyef: beach: Implementing them in terms of special-variable binding and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM ? 2014-11-21T03:57:01Z beach: Yeah, probably so. 2014-11-21T03:57:07Z beach: I am not awake yet. 2014-11-21T03:57:23Z beach: I remember deciding that they wouldn't have any impact on HIR. 2014-11-21T03:57:35Z nyef: And I'm being half-sarcastic, since you want some level of compatibility with existing systems. 2014-11-21T03:57:42Z nyef: THROW works out as a function call, though. 2014-11-21T03:57:48Z beach: Yeah. 2014-11-21T03:58:33Z beach: I think I decided CATCH would be calling a function with a thunk. 2014-11-21T03:58:58Z beach: But that is probably one thing I have to leave up to the implementation as you point out. 2014-11-21T03:59:07Z nyef: CATCH can also be im... yeah, that. Then allow implementations to supply an implementation-specific form for the binding semantics and inline the thunk. 2014-11-21T03:59:25Z beach: Yeah. Sound right. 2014-11-21T03:59:58Z beach: It is interesting to contemplate the implementation-independent aspect of things. 2014-11-21T04:00:11Z beach: It makes things a bit harder, but also much nicer in the end. 2014-11-21T04:00:31Z nyef: Yeah, it's harder in one sense, but it's a very good guiding principle in another. 2014-11-21T04:00:43Z beach: Right. 2014-11-21T04:01:34Z beach: Someone should write a book about that. 2014-11-21T04:02:11Z nyef: It's been done. Several times. Not usually specifically about programming. 2014-11-21T04:02:44Z beach: Really? 2014-11-21T04:02:54Z ruste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T04:05:03Z nyef: Sure. I read it most often in business books (the ones that haven't bought into the whole "startup" thing). 2014-11-21T04:05:13Z nyef: Also in personal development books... 2014-11-21T04:05:28Z beach: I see. 2014-11-21T04:05:52Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-11-21T04:07:02Z ruste joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:07:15Z nyef: Basically, define your principles and your values and you have guidelines for making many of your decisions. The decisions that you make might be the harder way, but they will be in line with your principles and your values, and thus reflect what you know to be important. 2014-11-21T04:08:10Z beach: Got it. I don't think most people reading that would infer the design principle for software though. :) 2014-11-21T04:08:22Z beach: So there is still room for a book. 2014-11-21T04:08:41Z nyef: But you decided that your principle was to always take the portable option. 2014-11-21T04:09:08Z nyef: I went so far as to teach minion about my attitude when it comes to portability. 2014-11-21T04:09:08Z beach: Yes, I see what you are saying. 2014-11-21T04:09:14Z nyef: minion: advice on portable? 2014-11-21T04:09:14Z minion: #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 2014-11-21T04:09:33Z chu joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:09:51Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:10:26Z nyef: I also believe that there is no such thing as portable code, only ported code and code that is more or less easy to port. 2014-11-21T04:11:05Z beach: I agree. "Portable" is shorthand for something relative. 2014-11-21T04:13:00Z nyef: To me, ported code is only important when I need to run it on another system. I do not go out of my way to make code portable because I find that proper factoring of code for testing purposes, for ease of comprehension, for ease of debugging, and especially for ease of modification is sufficient to make it easily ported. 2014-11-21T04:14:04Z TDog quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 33.1/20141106120505]) 2014-11-21T04:14:49Z nyef: At one point I wrote an SBCL-specific library for accessing the Linux user-mode USB stack. I used SB-ALIEN for FFI and SB-UNIX (an internal package) for some functions. 2014-11-21T04:14:53Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T04:15:31Z nyef: Someone ported it to CCL using CFFI, changing the boilerplate for the struct definitions and two of the function calls. 2014-11-21T04:16:55Z thomas joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:16:55Z beach: nyef: More power to you. Before I started Cleavir I found that even though I was convinced my design was good, the fact that it was SICL-specific prevented me from coming up with a better one. 2014-11-21T04:17:34Z beach: nyef: But that might just be my personal problem, so maybe it doesn't generalize to other programmers. 2014-11-21T04:17:58Z nyef: It's a different problem space, as well. 2014-11-21T04:18:08Z beach: Sure. 2014-11-21T04:18:53Z nyef: Building ONE compiler is hard enough, and doing so in the context of a single system means that you don't NEED to investigate parts of your design. 2014-11-21T04:19:42Z beach: Sounds right. 2014-11-21T04:20:05Z nyef: I'm slowly rebuilding my Forth system, using a different host implementation than I used to use, and aiming for far more compatibility with the ANS standard than it originally had. I've had to rework a huge amount of the design because of it. 2014-11-21T04:20:18Z nyef: And Forth is a dead-simple language to write a compiler for. 2014-11-21T04:20:40Z beach: Even one that generates high-performance code? 2014-11-21T04:20:52Z beach: I know a bit Forth, but not enough. 2014-11-21T04:21:19Z nyef: The tradeoffs are very different with Forth; the programmer is expected and encouraged to do a lot more of the optimization work than the compiler. 2014-11-21T04:22:28Z nyef: The other thing is that I'm hoping to explore different execution models, target other systems including embedded systems, and so on. They all have previously-unconsidered effects on the code. 2014-11-21T04:22:41Z nyef: So part of portability is where you want to port to. 2014-11-21T04:22:50Z drmeister: nyef: I've done a lot of postscript programming - but not forth itself. 2014-11-21T04:23:00Z nyef: My user-mode USB library probably wouldn't work well on windows or OSX, for example. 2014-11-21T04:23:18Z nyef: Because it uses Linux IOCTLs directly. 2014-11-21T04:23:38Z nyef: But anything using the library could probably be made to run on such systems by replacing just that library. 2014-11-21T04:25:43Z sheilong quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T04:26:34Z nyef: beach: You're right about one thing, though. I really should be writing down my philosophy of programming, the way that I'm currently writing down my philosophy of work. 2014-11-21T04:26:42Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:27:16Z beach: nyef: Definitely! What is your philosophy of work? Can it be summarized in a phrase or two? 2014-11-21T04:29:55Z nyef: I'm already up to eight different types of work, how they interact, their relative worth, one critical resource (focused attention) that must be zealously guarded, some communications protocols... If it CAN be summarized in a phrase or two it's not yet developed enough for me to be able to find them. 2014-11-21T04:31:02Z beach: It sounds like something I would like to read. Have you considered using some self-publishing site? I use CreateSpace which is linked to Amazon. 2014-11-21T04:32:04Z nyef: I spent much of today on what I'm currently calling "type 4" work. Synchronous, unavoidable, about the lowest value of all work, and expensive in terms of focused attention. Basically a waste of a day. 2014-11-21T04:32:42Z kcj quit (Quit: kcj) 2014-11-21T04:32:59Z beach: nyef: This sounds fascinating, and I am serious about that. If you need someone to read a draft, let me know. 2014-11-21T04:33:00Z nyef: Well, unavoidable in that it has to be done, but it could have been prevented by appropriate application of two other kinds of work. 2014-11-21T04:33:44Z nyef: Sure, I'll keep you in mind for when I actually have it all written down, then typed up, and after I've had a good review pass over it myself. 2014-11-21T04:33:47Z beach: I am a pretty good proofreader; a skill I developed by reading numerous awful papers written by colleagues. 2014-11-21T04:34:13Z beach: I can read it a chapter at a time too. 2014-11-21T04:34:24Z nyef: It also just occurred to me that it would make a GREAT article series if I were to try and set up as a consultant or something. 2014-11-21T04:35:16Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:36:30Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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No. If the predicate is true the consequent is evaluated and the alternative is not. 2014-11-21T04:52:40Z sheilong: (if predicate x y) x (y)) 2014-11-21T04:53:16Z nyef: If the predicate is not true then the alternative is evaluated and the consequent is not. 2014-11-21T04:54:26Z sheilong: hmm 2014-11-21T04:54:37Z sheilong: I'm trying to figure out the exercise 1.6 pf sicp 2014-11-21T04:54:49Z sheilong: on the use of new-if 2014-11-21T04:55:04Z sheilong: which don't have an special form as if 2014-11-21T04:55:41Z nyef: ... so there's a good chance that you're using scheme rather than common lisp, and thus in the wrong channel? 2014-11-21T04:56:09Z nyef: I'm also going to be of limited help here, as I found SICP to be too boring to read before about chapter three. 2014-11-21T04:56:45Z sheilong: hm. 2014-11-21T04:57:04Z sheilong: nyef: I think in first chapters sicp are using lisp 2014-11-21T04:57:18Z sheilong: or am I wrong ? 2014-11-21T04:57:35Z nyef: The are using A lisp, specifically scheme. 2014-11-21T04:57:58Z nyef: The first major tipoff is the way that they define functions. 2014-11-21T04:58:33Z nyef: If functions are defined (defun name (parameters...) body...) then it's plausibly common lisp. 2014-11-21T04:58:49Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-21T04:58:54Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-11-21T04:59:28Z sheilong: ahhh 2014-11-21T04:59:28Z nyef: If they are defined with a form beginning with define rather than defun, and the position of the name within the syntax is a bit different, then it's far closer to scheme. 2014-11-21T05:00:06Z sheilong: nyef: hm.. 2014-11-21T05:00:10Z a20141120 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-11-21T05:00:30Z nyef: I forget precisely the syntax for scheme, I'm not about to look it up, and I'm certainly not about to crawl out of bed this late at night to try and find my copy of SICP. 2014-11-21T05:03:24Z sheilong: is only the sintax tha changes ? or more things ? 2014-11-21T05:03:27Z ggole: sheilong: if can't be a function (in a strict language like scheme) exactly because it skips evaluation of one of the choices 2014-11-21T05:03:59Z ggole: You should be able to figure out why evaluating both is problematic for that case. 2014-11-21T05:06:09Z nyef: sheilong: There are semantic differences as well. Scheme doesn't have dynamic binding for symbols, and has a shared namespace for both functions and variables. Common lisp has dynamic binding for symbols as an option (a requirement for top-level variable definitions) and separate namespaces for functions and variables. 2014-11-21T05:06:38Z nyef: sheilong: Also, scheme guarantees tail-call optimization, while common lisp does not. 2014-11-21T05:06:49Z sheilong: ggole: that I was meant, so if you one is true the another isn't evaluated right ? 2014-11-21T05:07:06Z nyef: And then scheme has the tactical nuclear weapon of control flow constructs: call-with-current-continuation. 2014-11-21T05:08:05Z sheilong: evaluate both in a recursive environment is problematic 2014-11-21T05:09:17Z ggole: Pretty much. 2014-11-21T05:09:17Z nyef: There's also the bit where scheme has distinguished values for false, the symbol nil, and the empty list, and a distinguished value for true, while common lisp conflates false, nil, and the empty list, and treats any non-nil value as being true with the canonical truth value being the symbol t. 2014-11-21T05:09:21Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T05:11:28Z sheilong: lot to absorve since I'm new on it 2014-11-21T05:11:46Z axion: is it considered an implementation bug if (/ 0 0.0) does not trigger DIVIDE-BY-ZERO condition? 2014-11-21T05:12:38Z nyef: clhs / 2014-11-21T05:12:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_sl.htm 2014-11-21T05:13:29Z nyef: axion: No, see the second sentence of the second paragraph under Exceptional Situations. 2014-11-21T05:13:54Z axion: when the first number is equalp 0, and second is eq 0.0, sbcl triggers FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION. all other cases DIVDOE-BY-ZERO 2014-11-21T05:14:01Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T05:15:04Z cabaire joined #lisp 2014-11-21T05:18:20Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T05:18:29Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-21T05:27:15Z |3b|: axion: eq doesn't work reliably on numbers, just say it is 0.0 2014-11-21T05:27:53Z axion: ok 2014-11-21T05:28:28Z axion: = then 2014-11-21T05:29:25Z 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2014-11-21T09:06:22Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T09:06:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:12:28Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:15:30Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T09:19:59Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T09:21:51Z knobo: I've been thinking of encoding/decoding json in lisp. And I think the best way for me, would be if a list is an object (:key 'val) -> {"key": "val"} and vector is an array (:key #('foo)) -> {"key": ["foo"]}. 2014-11-21T09:21:59Z knobo: And nothing else should be valid. 2014-11-21T09:23:07Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:23:21Z knobo: I'm considering (:key) to be {"key": null}, but I'm not sure. Maybe I should enfoce pairs, so that you would have to write (:key nil) 2014-11-21T09:23:55Z knobo: Is there a json library for lisp that works this way? 2014-11-21T09:24:04Z knobo: If not I'll just write my own. 2014-11-21T09:25:23Z knobo: I can not understand why any other way would be even considered. 2014-11-21T09:25:44Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:26:09Z Grue`: because converting strings to symbols is not always a good idea 2014-11-21T09:26:44Z Grue`: but there are lots of json libraries out there 2014-11-21T09:27:37Z Grue`: some even customizable 2014-11-21T09:28:21Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-21T09:28:45Z knobo: right, how to handle symbols to string is a thing to consider. Maybe make it configurable. 2014-11-21T09:29:14Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T09:29:17Z knobo: for example the keyword :null, what should the result be? 2014-11-21T09:29:43Z knobo: or 'true and :true 2014-11-21T09:30:23Z alpha-: null is nil 2014-11-21T09:30:30Z alpha-: everything else... just strings 2014-11-21T09:30:47Z knobo: not true/false 2014-11-21T09:33:13Z cmatei joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:33:14Z |3b|: hash table for json object also makes sense, can't have duplicate entries, empty hash table can't be confused with a symbol or js null 2014-11-21T09:34:37Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T09:35:32Z pppp2 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:35:51Z Grue`: i had a problem with jsown the other day, where it wanted :false (which is true value in Lisp) for Javascript false, but nil converts to [], which is true value in Javascript. and I needed the same truth value in both languages 2014-11-21T09:37:28Z alpha-: should translate everything thats false in js to nil then 2014-11-21T09:37:52Z alpha-: but 0.... 2014-11-21T09:37:53Z alpha-: hmm 2014-11-21T09:42:43Z knobo: |3b|: hash tables are absolutly a good idea. The only difference is that json objects are ordered, hash tables are not. 2014-11-21T09:44:32Z Grue`: i'm not sure hash tables are worth the overhead for most json data 2014-11-21T09:45:00Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:45:23Z knobo: I did some test with alists vs hash tables once. 2014-11-21T09:45:55Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:46:37Z knobo: I think I came up with about 500-700 elements before hash tables was worth it. 2014-11-21T09:47:20Z knobo: Maybe even more. 2014-11-21T09:47:42Z knobo: many years ago, so I don't remember exactly. 2014-11-21T09:48:59Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:49:12Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T09:50:03Z LoicLisp joined #lisp 2014-11-21T09:51:49Z Grue`` is now known as Grue` 2014-11-21T09:59:14Z alexherbo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T10:00:40Z baotiao quit (Quit: baotiao) 2014-11-21T10:03:37Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:04:22Z redeemed joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:12:51Z frkout_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T10:15:43Z wjiang quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T10:21:08Z wjiang joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:22:04Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:25:37Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T10:28:23Z protist joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:29:22Z wjiang quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T10:35:42Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:40:32Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T10:42:37Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T10:43:38Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:48:30Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T10:49:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:49:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T10:49:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:53:18Z lommm joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:54:27Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-21T10:58:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-21T10:59:42Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-11-21T11:03:03Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-11-21T11:04:49Z Baggers: I see that I can quickload asdf but I sbcl is still using its own copy rather than the one in quicklisp. Is this likely and if so how would I correct that? 2014-11-21T11:05:55Z Baggers: (asdf:asdf-version) -> "2.26" 2014-11-21T11:06:36Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T11:07:34Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-21T11:17:24Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-21T11:21:01Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T11:22:44Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T11:24:45Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T11:27:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T11:28:41Z madrik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T11:36:32Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T11:41:17Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T11:53:17Z pjb: knobo: if a list is an object, then (:key 'val) -> {"key": {"quote":"val"}} 2014-11-21T11:55:02Z pjb: Anyways, the point is that most programming language have a richer typology than what is provided by json, therefore converting from json to local data types offers multiple choices. encoding/decoding with JSON is not a bijection. 2014-11-21T11:56:35Z qlkzy quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T11:57:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-21T11:58:11Z qlkzy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:04:02Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-21T12:04:34Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:06:23Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T12:10:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-21T12:14:31Z vinleod quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T12:14:55Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:16:37Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:18:13Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:19:31Z Cymew: Baggers: if you can, upgrade your sbcl 2014-11-21T12:20:23Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:21:08Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:23:08Z eudoxia quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-21T12:28:10Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T12:28:28Z pppp2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T12:29:03Z pppp2 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:30:32Z birk quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-11-21T12:31:21Z lonjil joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:31:39Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T12:32:26Z Xach joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:32:53Z pppp2 quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-21T12:33:55Z pppp2 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:34:32Z enitiz joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:36:38Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:37:20Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:38:33Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:42:02Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T12:44:59Z lommm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T12:45:41Z Baggers: Cymew: sbcl on osx is quite a few versions behind unfortunately 2014-11-21T12:46:45Z Cymew: Have you tried to checkout the src and rebuild it with the version you have? 2014-11-21T12:47:20Z Cymew: Curious actually, since I was under the delusion that MacOS was very popular among lispers. 2014-11-21T12:47:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:47:56Z Cymew makes a mental note to do a rebuild on FreeBSD when he gets home 2014-11-21T12:48:42Z Baggers: Cymew: sorry I'm being a bit slow, did you mean sbcl or asdf source? 2014-11-21T12:49:08Z Cymew: I wasn't totally clear, so it's alright 2014-11-21T12:49:24Z Cymew: sbcl, then you'll get the v3 asdf as well 2014-11-21T12:49:51Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:56:45Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T12:56:49Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:57:39Z Baggers: Cymew: At work right now but will try it out later, cheers 2014-11-21T12:57:47Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-21T12:58:41Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2014-11-21T12:58:42Z Cymew: Do that. Good luck. 2014-11-21T13:03:08Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T13:07:45Z qlkzy quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T13:08:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:09:02Z yorick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-21T13:09:46Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:12:04Z qlkzy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:12:04Z qlkzy quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T13:14:36Z qlkzy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:15:22Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:16:15Z vinleod quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T13:17:23Z jweiss joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:18:41Z jweiss: can someone recommend an implementation that makes it easy to call c++ libraries? is ecl any better for this than say, sbcl? 2014-11-21T13:18:55Z H4ns: jweiss: there is no easy way for that. 2014-11-21T13:19:14Z jweiss: H4ns: so basically i would need to use SWIG no matter what? 2014-11-21T13:19:43Z msmith left #lisp 2014-11-21T13:19:54Z H4ns: jweiss: you can use whatever painful way you can find. i can't recommend anything in particular. 2014-11-21T13:20:01Z p_l: jweiss: drmeister iirc works on it, but it's not yet ready 2014-11-21T13:20:08Z H4ns: jweiss: just don't expect anything that you find to be "easy" by any means. 2014-11-21T13:20:18Z yorick joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:20:41Z p_l: jweiss: C++ "standard" advocated at times to outright make it extra complex to interop, the legacy is very bad 2014-11-21T13:20:48Z jweiss: H4ns: well, define "easy", right now I'm using python+swig, and there are way too many layers of wrapping. if I can't do any better with CL, that's fine, as long as it's not worse 2014-11-21T13:20:53Z H4ns: jweiss: to put p_l's comment into perspective: calling c++ is so painful that drmeister decided to write a new common lisp implementation that'd make things easier. 2014-11-21T13:20:54Z p_l: and even GCC is torpedoing its own work on interop 2014-11-21T13:20:59Z rick-monster: jweiss: there are some pitfalls to using swig, even for simple C bindings... 2014-11-21T13:21:29Z H4ns: jweiss: it is only worse in that you'll find less help with cl as fewer people go that route. 2014-11-21T13:21:48Z jweiss: i think my case shouldn't be that hard because the lib i'm calling has endpoints specifically for interop - that take and return standard types (string, int etc) 2014-11-21T13:21:52Z p_l: jweiss: that said, for code that doesn't use templates or exceptions, it's semi-doable (sometimes painful, but doable) 2014-11-21T13:23:39Z lommm joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:23:40Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:23:50Z jweiss: as long as it's not worse than what I deal with now. i need things that python just can't handle, eg concurrency 2014-11-21T13:24:18Z jweiss: but basically what i'm hearing is i might as well use sbcl, there's no other impl that is specifically better for this sort of interop 2014-11-21T13:24:26Z rick-monster: for a start the arithmetic operator precedence for swig is back-to-front - I have a patch for that. But cffi syntax doesn't always drop out correctly for nested structs, anonymous unions etc 2014-11-21T13:25:44Z jweiss: rick-monster: i don't think that will be an issue for me, but i'll have to try it 2014-11-21T13:25:48Z fe[nl]ix: jweiss: as long as you don't have to instantiate templates, you can use the usual FFI 2014-11-21T13:26:43Z jweiss: fe[nl]ix: hm, i've never seen an example of that with c++, do you know of one? 2014-11-21T13:27:23Z jweiss: i thought g++ munges c++ methods into weird function names 2014-11-21T13:28:44Z Aiwass joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:30:15Z fe[nl]ix: jweiss: that would be the C++ namespace mangling 2014-11-21T13:31:07Z fe[nl]ix: as long as you only need to access classes and existing functions, a CL FFI can work 2014-11-21T13:32:38Z pppp2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T13:32:42Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:32:47Z |3b|: last i looked, swig didn't support c++ for CL, so might be worse 2014-11-21T13:33:30Z p_l: jweiss: virtual methods are called through vtables 2014-11-21T13:33:57Z jweiss: i believe that all the functions i need to call (so far at least) are "extern"ed so that the name shouldn't be mangled. so maybe i can just go the straight ffi route and see how far that gets me 2014-11-21T13:34:20Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:35:06Z |3b|: if your c++ code has a C API, it is fairly easy to use from CL 2014-11-21T13:35:23Z Aiwass left #lisp 2014-11-21T13:35:24Z |3b|: well, could be, assuming a sane C API 2014-11-21T13:35:41Z lommm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T13:35:45Z jweiss: |3b|: I'm not a c/c++ coder, what do you mean "c api"? c wrappers? 2014-11-21T13:35:59Z eudoxia: this is what you want http://www.slideshare.net/StefanusDuToit/cpp-con-2014-hourglass-interfaces-for-c-apis 2014-11-21T13:37:23Z |3b|: extern "C" makes a C api 2014-11-21T13:37:47Z jweiss: |3b|: ah ok 2014-11-21T13:38:09Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:38:13Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:38:20Z |3b|: most languages can call C easily, since it generally has a fixed ABI on a particular platform 2014-11-21T13:39:53Z Baggers: And if you have an extern'd c api cl-autowrap may help https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap 2014-11-21T13:40:08Z pranavrc quit 2014-11-21T13:42:35Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T13:42:52Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T13:43:14Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:44:31Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:45:58Z luis: Hey, that looks nice! 2014-11-21T13:46:38Z Ralt left #lisp 2014-11-21T13:47:01Z LunchDestroyer joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:47:29Z fe[nl]ix: I disagree 2014-11-21T13:47:37Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:48:33Z fe[nl]ix: it's rather poorly written and based on an ignorance of CFFI 2014-11-21T13:48:41Z fe[nl]ix: like "While CFFI's high-level interface is nice for manually defining types and functions, it proves difficult when trying to automatically generate things or exercise precise control over various things like field layout." 2014-11-21T13:49:05Z luis: So sad. 2014-11-21T13:49:22Z luis: Well, the idea/goal is certainly nice. 2014-11-21T13:51:28Z drmeister: Good morning 2014-11-21T13:53:01Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:53:12Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:53:27Z nyef: G'morning all. 2014-11-21T13:54:15Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:55:56Z lommm joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:56:40Z splittist: morning dr, nyef 2014-11-21T13:57:05Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:57:32Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T13:58:18Z LunchDestroyer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T13:59:02Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T13:59:06Z LunchDestroyer joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:05:24Z ans_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:05:32Z ans quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T14:07:17Z lpaste quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:09:24Z ans_ is now known as ans 2014-11-21T14:10:02Z ilhami quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T14:10:03Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:10:18Z lpaste joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:10:45Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:10:46Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T14:10:46Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:11:33Z nand1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:14:53Z spookley quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:14:53Z chameco_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:15:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:15:20Z chameco joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:15:21Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:15:27Z nicdev` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T14:15:31Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:15:31Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:15:34Z nicdev`` joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:15:43Z jdz joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:16:09Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T14:16:09Z sytse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:16:16Z Blkt joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:16:33Z rvirding__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:16:47Z Riviera quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:17:10Z Spookley_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:17:21Z Riviera joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:17:56Z sytse joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:18:55Z Spookley_ is now known as Spookley 2014-11-21T14:21:09Z LunchDestroyer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T14:23:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T14:25:20Z filius` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:25:56Z LunchDestroyer joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:27:41Z lommm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:28:14Z LunchDestroyer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T14:28:52Z LunchDestroyer joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:29:05Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:29:27Z Spookley quit (Quit: Spookley Says Bye) 2014-11-21T14:30:31Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-11-21T14:33:13Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:33:43Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:34:17Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:34:26Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:35:27Z clop joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:35:32Z clop quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-21T14:36:13Z jweiss: fe[nl]ix: just out of curiosity what wrong with wanting cffi access to a large set of functions without having to manually specify them all? 2014-11-21T14:38:27Z filius` joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:39:13Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:39:14Z Shinmera: jweiss: I think fe[nl]ix' problem is more with cl-autowrap in particular, not the concept. 2014-11-21T14:40:02Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:40:04Z madrik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T14:42:13Z scoofy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:44:17Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:45:09Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-21T14:47:55Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:48:26Z clop joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:48:53Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:48:56Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:49:05Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:49:17Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:50:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:54:02Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: um, no 2014-11-21T14:54:09Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:54:56Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: if you have problems with how it's written i'm happy to hear them, but CFFI has no external interface for specifying exact struct layout etc 2014-11-21T14:55:11Z fe[nl]ix: yes it has 2014-11-21T14:55:16Z oGMo: which is necessary because its handling is naive and incomplete 2014-11-21T14:55:30Z fe[nl]ix: look at the files generated by cffi-groveler 2014-11-21T14:55:37Z oGMo: (or was a year or more ago when i was working on generating cffi) 2014-11-21T14:56:10Z fe[nl]ix: wrong, it has had precise layout control since the beginning 2014-11-21T14:56:12Z oGMo: er, i don't recall the groveler generating struct offsets per member 2014-11-21T14:56:33Z oGMo: and the api for querying them was not fully exported either 2014-11-21T14:56:59Z eudoxia: if something is not exported it might as well not exist tbh 2014-11-21T14:57:00Z oGMo: most of CFFI is just unnecessary at this point 2014-11-21T14:57:48Z oGMo: i mean it's great for manually specifying things, but e.g. type translation is not suitable for a lot of things 2014-11-21T14:58:43Z fe[nl]ix: like what ? 2014-11-21T14:58:57Z fe[nl]ix: example: http://paste.lisp.org/+33GA 2014-11-21T14:59:17Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T14:59:21Z filius` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T14:59:23Z oGMo: that said, there are definitely some hairballs in cl-autowrap.. the c-include macro has needed rewriting for awhile, but that's not core 2014-11-21T14:59:52Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: and bitwise? 2014-11-21T14:59:53Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T15:00:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T15:00:45Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:00:56Z fe[nl]ix: bitwise what ? 2014-11-21T15:01:23Z oGMo: also support for anonymous struct members, i think i was doing some generative stuff there but it was getting to be a headache .. i did have a CFFI bridge pre-autowrap 2014-11-21T15:01:47Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: struct member offsets, because sadly bitfields still exist 2014-11-21T15:01:59Z thawes_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:02:06Z adlai: anybody used/ing rucksack? 2014-11-21T15:03:07Z eudoxia: i took a look at it but it doesn't look like anyone is using it 2014-11-21T15:03:11Z eudoxia: i just went for sqlite 2014-11-21T15:03:59Z Shinmera mumbles something about cl-sqlite's abominable table caching 2014-11-21T15:05:11Z eudoxia: Shinmera: if you're planning to add 3d support to Parasol, you should write a library that abstracts away cl-opengl and glop 2014-11-21T15:05:20Z eudoxia: into what i'm not sure 2014-11-21T15:05:26Z oGMo: fe[nl]ix: but i take issue will calling autowrap "poorly written" especially compared to stuff in CFFI (like parse-type consing up a hash table on every call among other things) 2014-11-21T15:05:33Z Shinmera: eudoxia: I don't see why I should 2014-11-21T15:05:49Z eudoxia: Shinmera: it's cool 2014-11-21T15:05:56Z Shinmera: eudoxia: k. You do that then. 2014-11-21T15:06:09Z oGMo: i am definitely open to suggestions on improving it and try to fix issues quickly 2014-11-21T15:06:19Z Shinmera: I'll stick to implementing my lame nerd stuff 2014-11-21T15:06:23Z fe[nl]ix: oGMo: there's nothing special about anonymous members and bitfields 2014-11-21T15:06:36Z fe[nl]ix: oGMo: my only suggestion would be to scrap most of it 2014-11-21T15:06:59Z oGMo: for what purpose and for what to replace it? 2014-11-21T15:07:51Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:08:22Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T15:08:22Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:09:02Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:09:22Z oGMo: let me amend that to "open to _useful, practical_ suggestions for improvement" 2014-11-21T15:09:22Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:09:24Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I guess this isn't an immediate problem, but is a potential nuisance 2014-11-21T15:15:44Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:16:37Z filius` joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:18:53Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:21:15Z LunchDestroyer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T15:21:58Z LunchDestroyer joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:22:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:26:28Z jweiss quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:27:34Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:28:34Z adlai: CL-DBI also looks interesting 2014-11-21T15:29:53Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:31:42Z Nilby joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:31:44Z ahungry joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:34:05Z filius` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T15:35:30Z Xach: Krystof: building the ql world with latest sbcl git today 2014-11-21T15:40:01Z Nilby: "Welcome to LDB", but I do not feel very welcome :( 2014-11-21T15:42:03Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T15:43:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:45:28Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-11-21T15:46:06Z vinleod quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T15:46:14Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:48:33Z milanj joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:48:51Z ilhami quit (Quit: Bye!!!) 2014-11-21T15:49:53Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:50:24Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:51:59Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:59:31Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:59:31Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-11-21T15:59:34Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-11-21T16:00:56Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:01:18Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:05:11Z lommm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T16:07:17Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T16:08:30Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T16:10:06Z JokesOnYou77 quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-11-21T16:10:37Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T16:11:28Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:11:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T16:11:56Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-21T16:17:41Z wasamasa: minion: ldb 2014-11-21T16:17:42Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ldb''. 2014-11-21T16:17:46Z wasamasa: :( 2014-11-21T16:20:16Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2014-11-21T16:22:22Z vi1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:23:07Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:23:42Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:29:10Z Nilby: Maybe minion doesn't know about SBCL internals? 2014-11-21T16:29:29Z Shinmera: There's no cliki entry for ldb is the problem. 2014-11-21T16:30:52Z octophore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T16:31:44Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:31:46Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:32:10Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:32:11Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:32:12Z nyef: Might've been something on the sbcl-internals cliki. 2014-11-21T16:32:45Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:32:46Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:32:47Z Guest26571 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:33:25Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:33:26Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:34:06Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:34:07Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:34:53Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:34:55Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:35:16Z jlarocco quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-21T16:35:40Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:35:41Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:36:25Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:36:26Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:37:05Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:37:12Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:37:13Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:37:35Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T16:37:35Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:37:59Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:38:00Z octophore quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-21T16:38:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:41:15Z Nilby` joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:41:15Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T16:41:24Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:41:47Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:45:12Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:48:36Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T16:51:10Z kennedyj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T16:52:48Z Nilby` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-21T16:54:05Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T16:55:20Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:55:56Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:57:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-11-21T16:58:53Z Xach: the guy who wrote ldb is amazed that it is enabled in sbcl and cmucl 2014-11-21T16:59:50Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/208882.html <-- see the comment from "ch" 2014-11-21T17:01:51Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-21T17:02:43Z nyef: Hrm. Rather explains a few things about the design and features of LDB, at least. 2014-11-21T17:06:07Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-21T17:07:26Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T17:08:02Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:08:06Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T17:08:36Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:08:54Z zyaku: 3 2014-11-21T17:13:36Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-21T17:16:34Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:20:13Z beach joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:20:21Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-11-21T17:20:47Z Shinmera is not having a great evening so far. Has to mess around with OpenGL stuff in Qt 2014-11-21T17:20:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:20:53Z Shinmera: I wish everyone else a good evening too though. 2014-11-21T17:22:16Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-11-21T17:26:09Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:26:39Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T17:26:39Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:29:28Z BlueRavenGT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T17:30:35Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T17:31:56Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T17:34:52Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T17:36:33Z Posterdati: beach: hi 2014-11-21T17:39:16Z Posterdati: beach: is it possible to run sicl on freebsd sparc64 2014-11-21T17:39:34Z Posterdati: ? 2014-11-21T17:39:35Z beach: Posterdati: It is not possible to run on anything yet. 2014-11-21T17:40:10Z Posterdati: beach: ah 2014-11-21T17:40:12Z beach: ... except that soon it might work to run it inside SBCL. 2014-11-21T17:40:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T17:42:10Z lommm joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:42:28Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:42:32Z beach: Give me another year to get it to run on x86-64 GNU/Linux. 2014-11-21T17:43:08Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T17:44:34Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T17:49:13Z Posterdati: beach: ok 2014-11-21T17:50:20Z Posterdati: beach: may I join your project? 2014-11-21T17:50:35Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:50:49Z beach: Depending on the meaning of "join", anybody can join. 2014-11-21T17:51:07Z Posterdati: ok 2014-11-21T17:51:25Z beach: What are you thinking of doing? 2014-11-21T17:51:43Z Posterdati: I'm writing an assembler for arm in lisp 2014-11-21T17:52:02Z beach: Excellent! 2014-11-21T17:52:10Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-21T17:52:14Z nyef: Mmm. ARM assembler can be fun, but also extremely frustrating. 2014-11-21T17:52:19Z scoofy: why? 2014-11-21T17:52:32Z nyef: Why which? 2014-11-21T17:52:37Z scoofy: why frustrating 2014-11-21T17:53:05Z Posterdati: nyef: quite right, especially I think that I use a wrong approach... 2014-11-21T17:53:07Z Nilby joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:53:22Z jpanest joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:53:43Z nyef: Only having fourteen usable registers, the distinct limits on what is allowed as immediate data, and so on. 2014-11-21T17:54:10Z Posterdati: beach: maybe could be useful to write a sparc assembler too? 2014-11-21T17:54:13Z beach: Posterdati: SICL contains the beginning of a database of ARM instruction descriptions. 2014-11-21T17:54:21Z nyef: (There are sixteen "registers", but one of them is the stack pointer and one the program counter, so they aren't really "usable".) 2014-11-21T17:54:46Z Posterdati: nyef: but arm is orthogonal 2014-11-21T17:55:03Z nyef: Meaningless. 2014-11-21T17:55:15Z Posterdati: no it's quite the truth 2014-11-21T17:55:34Z Posterdati: differences among registers come up in thumb mode 2014-11-21T17:56:15Z nyef: Just try to use r15 to hold the intermediate value for some computation. 2014-11-21T17:56:20Z beach: Posterdati: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Backends/Processors/ARM/instructions.lisp starting at line 700 or so. 2014-11-21T17:57:32Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:57:59Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T17:58:08Z nyef: The combination of such restricted immediate data and the lack of registers was very frustrating while I was working on SBCL. Even now, we're trying to scare up just one more register for something. 2014-11-21T17:58:09Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-11-21T17:58:36Z nyef: Now, predicated code is awesome. 2014-11-21T17:58:40Z Posterdati: beach: so you're idea is to assemble from an ascii file with assembly code in it? 2014-11-21T17:58:58Z nyef: And any opportunity to use a computed jump... (-: 2014-11-21T17:59:26Z beach: Posterdati: No. 2014-11-21T17:59:26Z Posterdati: beach: I mean the possibility to assemble a .S file for arm 2014-11-21T17:59:33Z beach: No 2014-11-21T17:59:38Z Posterdati: ok 2014-11-21T17:59:53Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/assembler.html 2014-11-21T18:00:12Z nyef: beach: Line 9, "\#|" should probably be "#\|". 2014-11-21T18:00:25Z Posterdati: ok 2014-11-21T18:00:52Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T18:00:58Z beach: nyef: What document? 2014-11-21T18:01:10Z nyef: instructions.lisp. 2014-11-21T18:01:30Z cy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:01:31Z beach: Ah, OK. Looking 2014-11-21T18:02:20Z nyef: If it weren't a comment, the compiler would have caught it. (-: 2014-11-21T18:02:54Z beach: Heh, yeah. Thanks. Fixed! 2014-11-21T18:03:18Z Posterdati: beach: I did something like LAP-ARM> (format t "0b~16,'0b~%" (lap-arm-thumb:bic :r0 :r1)) 2014-11-21T18:03:18Z Posterdati: 0b0100001110001000 2014-11-21T18:03:24Z beach: Posterdati: Also, if you are thinking of contributing to SICL, you should probably read the chapter "contributing to SICL" in the specification. 2014-11-21T18:07:01Z Posterdati: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Specification 2014-11-21T18:07:03Z Posterdati: > 2014-11-21T18:07:04Z Posterdati: ? 2014-11-21T18:07:10Z beach: Yeah. 2014-11-21T18:07:23Z beach: Let me compile it for you and put it up in PDF form. 2014-11-21T18:07:46Z Posterdati: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Specification/part-contributing.tex 2014-11-21T18:08:11Z Posterdati: oh thanks 2014-11-21T18:08:46Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sicl.pdf 2014-11-21T18:09:10Z beach: Starting page 149 2014-11-21T18:10:43Z aynik joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:10:51Z beach: Not complete, of course (just like the code), but you get the picture. 2014-11-21T18:12:56Z beach: I think what I am trying to say is that I am not currently soliciting contributions, and I am quite picky about what I would accept. Having said that, I gladly accept contributions that conform to my ideas of how things should be done. 2014-11-21T18:15:27Z Bike: SICL is supported by DoD Grant 2392 as well as the money from the Lenin Prize 2014-11-21T18:15:57Z beach: I wish! :) 2014-11-21T18:17:03Z farhaven joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:19:40Z pjb: Bike: why this disinformation? 2014-11-21T18:20:09Z Bike: part of my ongoing campaign to anger you personally with my clever and subtle tricks 2014-11-21T18:20:21Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:20:35Z Posterdati: oh that's not fair! 2014-11-21T18:20:35Z beach: Calm down, guys, please! 2014-11-21T18:22:20Z drmeister: Oh dear - This may not be the best time but beach - I posted an issue in the SICL repo regarding some dead links that are causing Clasp grief. 2014-11-21T18:23:07Z beach: drmeister: Thanks. I usually get informed by email, but haven't seen anything yet. 2014-11-21T18:23:35Z Posterdati: beach: are there possibilities to earn a couple of bilions dollars? 2014-11-21T18:23:52Z pjb: There are always possibilities. 2014-11-21T18:24:23Z Posterdati: that's fine 2014-11-21T18:26:04Z beach: Posterdati: On SICL? Nah! 2014-11-21T18:26:28Z Posterdati: yes, only millions 2014-11-21T18:28:19Z Posterdati: enough 2014-11-21T18:28:42Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:28:48Z beach: Contrary to what some people might think, given the name SICL, I am not a communist. I do firmly believe, however, that people should make money proportionally to their amount of work. The proportionality factor can be fairly large though. 2014-11-21T18:29:10Z Posterdati: ah nice 2014-11-21T18:29:24Z Bike: rest assured that i do not actually believe that you are a soviet agent. 2014-11-21T18:29:50Z beach: Bike: Yeah, don't worry. :) 2014-11-21T18:29:53Z Shinmera: CL = Communistic Language 2014-11-21T18:30:18Z codeburg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T18:30:22Z Shinmera: Now we know. 2014-11-21T18:30:30Z drmeister: SICL: Sufficiently Intelligent Common Lisp - dude - it's right there, go with it! 2014-11-21T18:30:45Z beach: Shinmera: Yeah, always suspected that of Kent Pitman :) 2014-11-21T18:30:46Z Posterdati: beach: SICL = Socialist International Common Language 2014-11-21T18:30:59Z Shinmera: Sexy and Intelligent Common Lisp 2014-11-21T18:31:02Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:31:03Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:31:27Z beach: Thanks for all the suggestions! :) 2014-11-21T18:32:16Z drmeister stops right there realizing he's become what he finds most annoying. 2014-11-21T18:32:21Z Posterdati: SICL = So I Can Leave 2014-11-21T18:32:22Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T18:32:23Z beach: minion: what does SICL stand for? 2014-11-21T18:32:23Z minion: Signation Iambically Common Lisp 2014-11-21T18:34:08Z beach: There you go! 2014-11-21T18:34:33Z Posterdati: SICL = Sure I Can Live 2014-11-21T18:35:10Z Nilby is very impressed at the flexible compiling described in SICL. 2014-11-21T18:35:29Z Nilby: SICL = Such Impressive Compiling Language 2014-11-21T18:35:55Z beach: Nilby: "flexible compiling"? 2014-11-21T18:36:18Z Posterdati: SICL = Smarto Impressions Common Lisp 2014-11-21T18:36:24Z Posterdati: SICL = Smart Impressions Common Lisp 2014-11-21T18:37:53Z Nilby: How you define in intrinsic, extrinsic, abstract and concrete targets. 2014-11-21T18:38:04Z beach: Ah. 2014-11-21T18:38:05Z Posterdati: could it run all common lisp apps like quicklisp? 2014-11-21T18:38:51Z beach: Nilby: Occupational disease. 2014-11-21T18:38:59Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:39:07Z Posterdati: I mean when it will be finished 2014-11-21T18:39:14Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:39:30Z beach: Posterdati: Yes, sure, and it will make chocolate too. 2014-11-21T18:39:46Z Posterdati: nice 2014-11-21T18:39:50Z Xach: beach: did i show you the "blue pages" concept i ran into last year? 2014-11-21T18:40:04Z Xach: the concept is old, my awareness of it is relatively new 2014-11-21T18:40:12Z beach: Nilby: As a CS person, I am distressed when words are used without definitions, and I am distressed when I have to repeat phrases over and over again. The natural solution is to define a term for it. 2014-11-21T18:40:15Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html is it, anyway 2014-11-21T18:40:37Z beach: Xach: It rings a bell. Let me look. 2014-11-21T18:41:10Z Nilby: beach: I quite agree, despite being being very unacademic myself. 2014-11-21T18:41:53Z beach: Xach: I believe I read that, but my memory is so bad, it doesn't hurt for me to be reminded. 2014-11-21T18:42:43Z pjb: - 2014-11-21T18:42:47Z beach: Nilby: A typical example is a debate here in #lisp as to whether this or that language is "a Lisp" without defining what "a Lisp" means. 2014-11-21T18:43:26Z pnpuff quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-21T18:44:04Z beach: Nilby: And since I am not a native speaker of English, I go make tours of synonym dictionaries and encyclopedias in order to find the right word. "Extrinsic" is such an example. 2014-11-21T18:44:23Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:45:12Z WarWeasle joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:46:36Z jasom: SICL= Structure and Interpretations of Common Lisp 2014-11-21T18:47:25Z pnpuff: ...of computers languages :-) 2014-11-21T18:48:25Z beach: How about I write down all these suggestions in the intro of the SICL doc? 2014-11-21T18:48:41Z WarWeasle quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-21T18:49:27Z beach: The way I find names of things is to grep for "ckl" in dictionaries and then I remove the "k". 2014-11-21T18:49:34Z beach: (to simplify) 2014-11-21T18:49:42Z Nilby: Sadly english is not such a treasure trove for dictionary tourism. 2014-11-21T18:49:43Z drmeister: beach: To convert an AST to HIR I should use (cleavir-ast-to-hir:compile-toplevel ast)? 2014-11-21T18:49:53Z beach: Yes. 2014-11-21T18:49:55Z Posterdati: So Improbable Common Lisp 2014-11-21T18:50:07Z jasom: ckleavir? 2014-11-21T18:50:33Z beach: jasom: some exceptions exist. 2014-11-21T18:50:49Z beach: drmeister: Expect that function to take an additional argument soon. 2014-11-21T18:50:56Z beach: IMPLEMENTATION. 2014-11-21T18:51:16Z beach: drmeister: As before, you will have to supply a dummy object: *clasp* 2014-11-21T18:52:19Z Bike: maybe you should do like windows and add a dozen reserved parameters that have to be NIL until you give them a meaning :p 2014-11-21T18:52:24Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T18:52:34Z Nilby dreams of a Lisp with concepts in Latin but written with CJK radicals. 2014-11-21T18:52:59Z beach: Bike: Normally, I like your ideas, but ... :) 2014-11-21T18:53:25Z drmeister: Well, I've got some other problems - probably clasp related - but must go to a thesis defense now for a couple of hours. 2014-11-21T18:53:31Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-21T18:53:41Z beach: drmeister: I feel your pain. 2014-11-21T18:54:14Z Posterdati: drmeister: your defense? 2014-11-21T18:54:48Z beach: Posterdati: I don't think so, no. 2014-11-21T18:55:21Z Posterdati: beach: could be funny 2014-11-21T18:55:29Z beach: Posterdati: https://chem.cst.temple.edu/directory/faculty/schafmeister/ 2014-11-21T18:55:29Z Bike: do PhDs have nightmares where they have to do their thesis defense again, i wonder 2014-11-21T18:56:15Z beach: Bike: I am almost 60, and I still have a recurring dream that I forgot to attend a required course in order to graduate. 2014-11-21T18:56:52Z beach: Not exactly a nightmare, but in that spirit. 2014-11-21T18:57:21Z Bike: Sheesh. 2014-11-21T18:58:01Z beach: Bike: I check with a psychologist. It is almost universal. 2014-11-21T18:58:08Z beach: Nothing to worry about. 2014-11-21T18:58:49Z Posterdati: beach: then what one should do to help your project? 2014-11-21T18:59:05Z rhollor: how can you detect EOF when reading from a file 2014-11-21T18:59:29Z beach: clhs read 2014-11-21T18:59:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 2014-11-21T18:59:37Z beach: rhollor: there are arguments for that. 2014-11-21T19:00:08Z Bike: rhollor: second argument determines whether it throws an error on EOF (which you can catch and deal with), or returns some specific EOF object determined by the third argument. 2014-11-21T19:00:40Z Bike: e.g. you can do (read-line nil nil 'eof), and if it hits eof it will return the symbol EOF. 2014-11-21T19:00:52Z beach: Posterdati: Depends on your goals. If you just want to see it happen, just sti down and enjoy the show. If you really want to help, you would have to tell me what you know how to do and what you would like to do. The we will see whether there is a fit with what is needed. 2014-11-21T19:01:12Z beach: s/sti/sit/ 2014-11-21T19:01:16Z rhollor: sweet 2014-11-21T19:01:41Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-21T19:02:44Z rhollor: another question: is there a function that can determine if a symbol is assigned a value? the only thing I tried was (null *foo*) but it threw an error saying that *foo* was unbound 2014-11-21T19:02:47Z Posterdati: beach: nice 2014-11-21T19:03:03Z Bike: rhollor: boundp, but it won't work on lexical variables 2014-11-21T19:03:08Z Posterdati: Draghi said that eurozone is almost doomed, wow! 2014-11-21T19:03:13Z Bike: clhs boundp 2014-11-21T19:03:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 2014-11-21T19:03:28Z Nilby: If I had time I'd like to write a compacting GC that works well with VM hardware. 2014-11-21T19:03:30Z Posterdati: beach: when and where? 2014-11-21T19:03:39Z beach: Bike: After graduation, are you thinking of a career in academia? I am asking, because you seem to have some pedagogical talent. 2014-11-21T19:03:47Z rhollor: Bike: what's a lexical variable mean? 2014-11-21T19:03:52Z beach: Posterdati: Here and now. 2014-11-21T19:03:59Z Bike: rhollor: (let ((x 2)) ...) <== x is lexical (probably) 2014-11-21T19:04:10Z Bike: rhollor: versus (defvar *x*) <-- x is dynamic 2014-11-21T19:04:25Z rhollor: oh okay 2014-11-21T19:04:52Z Bike: beach: hoping i can get some "real world experience" as a lab monkey before doing something academicish is the dim outlines of my plan, yeah. 2014-11-21T19:05:21Z beach: Bike: Do a postdoc abroad. 2014-11-21T19:07:09Z beach: Posterdati: Like for the assembler, I think the compiler should not create surface syntax, but a list of class instances that describe what should be done. 2014-11-21T19:08:07Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T19:08:09Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:08:23Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:11:16Z cy quit (Quit: :q!) 2014-11-21T19:11:56Z beach: Posterdati: As I write here: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/syntax.html 2014-11-21T19:13:04Z beach: Bike: Lots of places would take you on. I recommend University of Auckland. 2014-11-21T19:13:40Z Bike: i'll keep that in mind. don't want to be too off topic is all. plus it's gonna be a few years before i have to think about it 2014-11-21T19:13:46Z beach: Bike: I also have contacts at Glasgow. 2014-11-21T19:14:04Z beach: OK. 2014-11-21T19:14:29Z Bike: i appreciate it, though. 2014-11-21T19:15:07Z beach: Let me know when it gets closer. 2014-11-21T19:16:12Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T19:19:03Z xristos left #lisp 2014-11-21T19:19:09Z beach: So, what I have spent my day doing is to convert an ordinary lambda list into two things: a lambda list with only lexicals that would be set by the argument-parsing code, and a bunch of ASTs that will set or bind variables according to whether they are special or not. 2014-11-21T19:19:18Z beach: Very messy stuff. 2014-11-21T19:20:16Z beach: I decided to do it recursively. New environments get created before the recursive call, and ASTs get created by the backtrack code. 2014-11-21T19:20:19Z Bike: it's such a headache. this lexical variable is bound before this special, which is bound before this other lexical... 2014-11-21T19:20:39Z beach: Yeah, I recognize it. 2014-11-21T19:20:59Z beach: It is straightforward, but the abstractions are not obvious. 2014-11-21T19:22:44Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:25:57Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-11-21T19:27:47Z rtra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T19:32:30Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:33:13Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T19:36:30Z Posterdati: beach: please wait! 2014-11-21T19:38:49Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T19:39:36Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:40:01Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T19:40:55Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-21T19:43:42Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T19:44:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:44:26Z beach: Posterdati: I am a very patient person. 2014-11-21T19:44:40Z nightfly quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-11-21T19:45:32Z Xach: Shinmera: what is v:debug? 2014-11-21T19:45:39Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:46:05Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-21T19:46:25Z beach: Posterdati: " But he has infinite patience" 2014-11-21T19:46:34Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:48:02Z Xach: Shinmera: i think it is causing a qtools build failure today, whatever it is. I get a package error in sbcl, no package named "V" 2014-11-21T19:48:45Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:48:47Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:48:50Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T19:48:52Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T19:49:26Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:50:25Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:51:30Z Shinmera curses 2014-11-21T19:51:41Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:51:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-21T19:51:48Z Shinmera: looks like I forgot a stray logging statement as I was working on qtools in tandem with parasol 2014-11-21T19:52:03Z Shinmera: Xach: Should be fixed now. 2014-11-21T19:52:05Z Xach: ok 2014-11-21T19:52:47Z Xach: tusen tack 2014-11-21T19:52:57Z yuikov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T19:53:17Z Shinmera: Der Dank ist ganz meinerseits. 2014-11-21T19:53:28Z beach: Xach: Do you actually know Swedish? 2014-11-21T19:53:53Z rhllor joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:54:07Z Xach: beach: tjo! 2014-11-21T19:54:13Z Xach: ...nej :~( 2014-11-21T19:54:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:54:29Z beach: Just checking. 2014-11-21T19:54:38Z Xach: Krystof: looks like lol-re, despite some attempt to be smart about conditionals, does not work on SBCL from git. 2014-11-21T19:54:51Z Xach: oops, cl-read-macro-tokens. 2014-11-21T19:55:13Z Xach: beach: I have a friend from torsby. 2014-11-21T19:55:24Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:56:05Z Xach: NOT Sven-Göran Eriksson. 2014-11-21T19:56:53Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T19:57:11Z beach: Xach: Ah, Värmland 2014-11-21T19:58:21Z beach: I can barely understand what they say. 2014-11-21T19:58:45Z posterdati300 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T19:59:18Z posterdati300: hi 2014-11-21T19:59:26Z posterdati300: beach: hi 2014-11-21T20:00:00Z beach: posterdati300: You have improved by 299. 2014-11-21T20:00:27Z posterdati300: beach: yes 2014-11-21T20:00:35Z posterdati300: beach: my pc is busy now... 2014-11-21T20:01:57Z posterdati300: beach: anyway... I'm interested in the assembler stuff 2014-11-21T20:02:06Z beach: Great! 2014-11-21T20:02:25Z posterdati300: but I' almost a novice guy in the lisp universe 2014-11-21T20:02:39Z beach: Ouch! :) 2014-11-21T20:04:44Z beach: posterdati300: How can you be a novice when you have been here for more than 7 years: 07.07.28:07:05:46 hi 2014-11-21T20:05:04Z posterdati300: seven years??? 2014-11-21T20:05:41Z posterdati300: I'm cat, so you have to divide 7 years by 5 2014-11-21T20:05:43Z Xach: beach: perhaps there is some variable that measures actual cpu usage, like get-internal-real-time vs get-internal-thinking-time 2014-11-21T20:05:54Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:06:26Z beach: Xach: Aww! 2014-11-21T20:06:58Z Xach is frightened by the prospect of around 12 years on #lisp 2014-11-21T20:07:33Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T20:07:50Z beach: grep -i posterd * | wc -l => 9162 2014-11-21T20:08:01Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:09:16Z beach: grep -i " 5927 2014-11-21T20:10:12Z posterdati300: I think that I started to be here from 2008 2014-11-21T20:11:02Z beach: 07.07.28 unless your nick was taken by someone else 2014-11-21T20:11:23Z posterdati300: 2007? 2014-11-21T20:11:25Z posterdati300: maybe 2014-11-21T20:11:30Z beach: posterdati300: I am just playing. Don't worry. 2014-11-21T20:11:47Z posterdati300: ok 2014-11-21T20:13:54Z abbe is now known as thijk 2014-11-21T20:13:58Z thijk is now known as abbe 2014-11-21T20:14:35Z posterdati300: ok, what's next 2014-11-21T20:14:37Z posterdati300: ? 2014-11-21T20:16:23Z urandom__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:17:28Z rhllor: rhllor 2014-11-21T20:17:34Z rhllor quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-11-21T20:17:46Z rhollor quit (Quit: rhollor) 2014-11-21T20:17:57Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-11-21T20:19:41Z beach: posterdati300: You tell me what you know and what you want to do. 2014-11-21T20:20:07Z beach: posterdati300: I will tell you what I think you would be capable of. 2014-11-21T20:20:26Z posterdati300: uh ok 2014-11-21T20:21:07Z rhllor joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:21:17Z The_Woodsman joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:21:17Z rhllor left #lisp 2014-11-21T20:21:37Z beach: posterdati300: Like, do you know compiler optimizations like value numbering, partial redundancy elimination, strength reduction, etc? 2014-11-21T20:21:48Z rhllor joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:21:51Z posterdati300: no 2014-11-21T20:21:55Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:21:58Z rhllor left #lisp 2014-11-21T20:22:07Z beach: So then you can't work on compiler optimizations. 2014-11-21T20:22:12Z ggole quit 2014-11-21T20:22:26Z beach: ... unless you want to read up on it of course. 2014-11-21T20:22:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:22:42Z posterdati300: are there some materials to study on? 2014-11-21T20:22:53Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:22:57Z beach: Thousands. 2014-11-21T20:23:09Z beach: But you can also choose a different topic. 2014-11-21T20:23:09Z posterdati300: in the past I wrote a simple assembler using EBNF with bison++ 2014-11-21T20:23:52Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T20:23:55Z beach: posterdati300: Like I said on the assembly page, I am not interested in surface syntax. 2014-11-21T20:24:16Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:24:20Z posterdati300: do you mean implementing the arm syntax to write code? 2014-11-21T20:24:50Z beach: I mean, the important aspect of an assembler is not reading a file. 2014-11-21T20:25:04Z nightfly joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:25:15Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:25:23Z beach: Why would a Common Lisp compiler produce a sequence of bytes to be parsed? 2014-11-21T20:25:24Z posterdati300: yes 2014-11-21T20:25:30Z beach: Sounds silly to me. 2014-11-21T20:25:31Z cmack joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:25:34Z Bike: actually, what's sicl's assembler like? i would really, really like to be able to auto generate tables and such, a lot of the unrelated assembler i've been using seems unreasonably primitive 2014-11-21T20:25:47Z jweiss joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:26:08Z beach: Bike: SICL doesn't have "AN Assembler" yet. 2014-11-21T20:26:20Z beach: But I have ideas on what it would o. 2014-11-21T20:26:21Z beach: do 2014-11-21T20:26:40Z Bike: are you planning on having a separate usable assembler? Like, being able to write assembly routines you can call from lisp, sorta thing. 2014-11-21T20:26:55Z pjb: A LAP can be usefule. 2014-11-21T20:26:58Z pjb: s/e././ 2014-11-21T20:27:05Z beach: posterdati300: So I am thinking (as the web page said) that the compiler should generate a list of class instances. 2014-11-21T20:27:10Z pjb: but a compiler may need something different for its backend. 2014-11-21T20:27:19Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:27:38Z rhollor: what's the difference between progn, prog1, and prog2 2014-11-21T20:27:40Z beach: Bike: I have no idea. 2014-11-21T20:27:53Z pjb: IIRC, gcc takes processor instruction set descriptions, and find what instruction to generate automatically. 2014-11-21T20:27:53Z beach: rhollor: Look in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2014-11-21T20:28:04Z Bike: rhollor: progX executes the forms in order and then returns the value of the Xth form. and yeah it's all in the clhs. 2014-11-21T20:28:10Z pjb: bad advice, CLHS specification is wrong (for prog2) :-) 2014-11-21T20:28:18Z Bike: oh true 2014-11-21T20:28:42Z posterdati300: I did --> stmia r10!, {r0-r7} --> (lap-arm:stm :ia :r10 '(:r0 :r1 :r2 :r3 :r4 :r5 :r6 :r7) :mark t) 2014-11-21T20:28:54Z Bike: gcc is kind of what i'm wondering about. i haven't used gas, but i get the impression it's not very good for writing in, and most assembly programmers use nasm or something instead. 2014-11-21T20:29:12Z pjb: rhollor: prog1 returns the main value of the first form, prog2 that of the second form, while progn returns all the values of the last form. multiple-value-prog1 returns all the values of the first form. 2014-11-21T20:29:18Z beach: Bike: I share your impression. 2014-11-21T20:29:40Z Bike: On the other hand I know it's possible to write custom assembly in sbcl and ccl. 2014-11-21T20:29:49Z pjb: rhollor: in all cases, the forms in progX are evaluated sequentially. 2014-11-21T20:29:50Z Bike: (gcc's assembly syntax is also horrifying, btw) 2014-11-21T20:30:03Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:30:04Z pjb: rhollor: there are also prov and prog and prog* but they're different. 2014-11-21T20:30:09Z pjb: progv 2014-11-21T20:30:22Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:32:27Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:32:46Z beach: pjb: You are a smart and knowledgeable guy which is obvious, but sometimes you need to dumb down your knowledge when you deal with newbies in order that they understand. Just some friendly advice. 2014-11-21T20:33:43Z a20141119 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:33:46Z pjb: Thanks. I didn't thought it was rocket science. 2014-11-21T20:33:48Z rhollor: pjb: what do those do? 2014-11-21T20:33:59Z beach: See? :) 2014-11-21T20:34:11Z pnpuff: I was reading just now something about VOPs and register level type system trying to find something similar to C types and storage classes...just for fun and not knowing what I'm doing 2014-11-21T20:35:06Z pjb: progv establishes dynamic bindings. prog and prog* establish bindings. They also allow declarations and incorporate an implicit tagbody. 2014-11-21T20:35:24Z pjb: rhollor: they're used much less often than prog or let. 2014-11-21T20:35:34Z Bike: i wouldn't worry too much about progv, and not about prog or prog* unless you're really into fortran 2014-11-21T20:35:43Z beach: pjb: It is clear that you have spent very little time in front of an amphi-theater filled with clueless undergraduates. Again no criticism, just stating a fact :) 2014-11-21T20:35:43Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:35:50Z rhollor: pjb: I'm gonna pretend I understood what you said 2014-11-21T20:35:51Z pjb: indeed. 2014-11-21T20:36:14Z rhollor: pjb: and just progn until I do 2014-11-21T20:37:03Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:37:06Z beach: pjb: Check the remark from Bike! That's the reason I recommend him to go into academia. 2014-11-21T20:37:38Z beach: pjb: It's known as "pedagogical lies". 2014-11-21T20:37:49Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:37:58Z pjb: Yes, I can't bear them. 2014-11-21T20:38:00Z pnpuff: beach: academia is not the heaven 2014-11-21T20:38:23Z beach: pnpuff: I would be the first one to agree. 2014-11-21T20:39:35Z beach: pjb: Yet, you have to put up with them, and worse, tell some of them, when newbies show up. Or else you will lose them. 2014-11-21T20:39:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:39:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:40:25Z beach: pjb: You won't lose the lies. You will lose the newbies. Sorry for the ambiguity. 2014-11-21T20:40:38Z pjb: I understood. 2014-11-21T20:40:41Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:40:50Z beach: Whew! :) 2014-11-21T20:41:07Z pjb: Losing lies is not a frequent notion. 2014-11-21T20:41:58Z beach: pjb: Again, no accusations here. Just pointing out what I observe. 2014-11-21T20:42:12Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:42:17Z pjb: I can't deny it :-) 2014-11-21T20:42:27Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-21T20:42:59Z beach: pjb: And you are definitely not alone. As when stassats started using examples implying designators. 2014-11-21T20:43:21Z pjb: There's a #clnoobs, where answers are given differently. 2014-11-21T20:43:21Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:43:37Z Bike: all's well that ends well as long as rhollor gets where to use prog2 2014-11-21T20:43:41Z beach: Good point. 2014-11-21T20:44:31Z pjb: rhollor: you may also use the REPL to get a feel of the operators: (prog1 1 2 3 4) (prog2 1 2 3 4) (progn 1 2 3 4) 2014-11-21T20:44:48Z rhollor: it's not that hard to get, (prog2 1 2 3) returns 2 2014-11-21T20:45:31Z rhollor: progn returns the last evaluated expresion, prog2 the second. its not that complicated 2014-11-21T20:45:33Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:45:40Z Bike: the "evaluated sequentially" thing is also important. but yeah it's pretty simple 2014-11-21T20:47:04Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T20:47:42Z felipe joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:48:06Z felipe is now known as Guest47542 2014-11-21T20:48:20Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:49:38Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-21T20:50:50Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:51:10Z Guest47542 is now known as sheilong 2014-11-21T20:52:32Z beach: Time to get some well-deserved sleep. Good night! 2014-11-21T20:52:38Z beach left #lisp 2014-11-21T20:52:47Z Bike: later 2014-11-21T20:53:48Z Blaguvest joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:53:57Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:54:43Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T20:55:08Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:56:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:58:17Z milanj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T20:58:23Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T20:59:25Z axion: how can i wrap a format string onto multiple lines without it affecting its output? 2014-11-21T20:59:47Z Xach: axion: ~ followed by a newline will ignore the newline and following whitespace 2014-11-21T20:59:54Z axion: ah thanks 2014-11-21T21:00:20Z Xach: axion: i use that pretty frequently for format control strings that make my source lines too long. they don't reindent automagically, which is a little annoying. 2014-11-21T21:00:28Z axion: ok regarding that... 2014-11-21T21:00:41Z axion: the subsequent lines need to have 2 spaces indented 2014-11-21T21:00:45Z axion: how can i do that? 2014-11-21T21:01:02Z Xach: axion: put the spaces BEFORE the ~ 2014-11-21T21:01:15Z pt1__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:01:26Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:01:29Z pnpuff: rhollor: notice that you've to take a look at the clhs under "5.3 The Data and Control Flow Dictionary" in order to search for a rigorous definition about special forms: progn, progv and macros: prog, prog*, prog1, prog2 ... reading clhs requires time and patience but it's very useful "in the long term". 2014-11-21T21:01:34Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T21:01:43Z axion: obvious questionyeah that was obvious. thanks again :) 2014-11-21T21:02:21Z Xach: no problem. i think i learned that from PCL. i don't think i would have understood it quickly from reading the reference. 2014-11-21T21:03:17Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:03:54Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:03:54Z pjb: axion: what I do: (format t "not indented~%~\n ~& indented by 2~%") 2014-11-21T21:04:03Z pjb: (remplace \n by an actual newline). 2014-11-21T21:04:16Z jweiss: if i have a c++ lib with a function foons::barclass::myfn, what do i refer to it as from cffi's defcfun? i get undefined alien, if i use it as-is "foons::barclass::myfn" 2014-11-21T21:04:39Z pjb: jweiss: you would have to know how you C++ compiler mangle such a name! 2014-11-21T21:05:12Z jweiss: pjb: well, that's the name that shows up in nm -Ca 2014-11-21T21:05:15Z pjb: jweiss: you cannot expect a Common Lisp compiler to be telepath to know with what compiler you compiled your C++ code, at least, not for some time. 2014-11-21T21:05:25Z pjb: Then copy that name and use it in defcfun. 2014-11-21T21:05:31Z jweiss: hm, that's what i did. 2014-11-21T21:06:17Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:06:27Z pjb: nm -Ca doesn't show mangled names on my system. 2014-11-21T21:06:28Z jweiss: would i get undefined alien due to arg types not matching? i called an arg :string in defcfun when it's really a std::string 2014-11-21T21:06:32Z pjb: Are you sure you know what you do? 2014-11-21T21:06:54Z Bike: jweiss: -C demangles. you want to give cffi the mangled name, since it doesn't know jack all about your C++ system. 2014-11-21T21:07:01Z jweiss: pjb: no, i have no clue at all. i'm fairly new to CL (but i'm familiar with clojure and elisp), and not a c++ programmer at all. 2014-11-21T21:07:02Z pjb: defCfun defines a C function, with C data types, not C++. 2014-11-21T21:07:12Z jasom: jweiss: CFFI is for functions with C linkage 2014-11-21T21:07:15Z Bike: jweiss: also this is probably a bad idea. you might want to look at drmeister's clasp project, it uses C++. 2014-11-21T21:07:17Z pjb: jweiss: C++ is evil. 2014-11-21T21:07:37Z jweiss: yeah, nothing i can do about that, gotta call into this lib, somehow. 2014-11-21T21:07:38Z Bike: oh, i suppose C++ functions don't link like C functions, huh... 2014-11-21T21:07:43Z pjb: jweiss: you could define a C API to your C++ code, and use the Cffi to interface to that C API. 2014-11-21T21:08:00Z pjb: jweiss: swig is able to do that automatically, as long as you don't deal with templates. 2014-11-21T21:08:06Z jasom: jweiss: the normal way to interface C++ with other languages is to use C++ to define a function with C linkage that calls into the C++ linkage function 2014-11-21T21:08:17Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:08:28Z jweiss: so the fact that the function is externed doesn't help me? 2014-11-21T21:08:33Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:08:38Z Bike: it doesn't, no. 2014-11-21T21:08:44Z jasom: jweiss: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1041866/in-c-source-what-is-the-effect-of-extern-c 2014-11-21T21:08:45Z Bike: this is why you see «extern "C"» in C++ code. 2014-11-21T21:09:02Z jweiss: hm ok, i was hoping to avoid swig but i guess i can use that 2014-11-21T21:09:35Z pnpuff: and extern in C it's only a storage class... no more, no less 2014-11-21T21:09:48Z axion: ok, how can i iterate over all of a defstruct's slots? 2014-11-21T21:09:51Z Bike: well in C++ it also does this linkage thing. 2014-11-21T21:10:04Z Bike: axion: with the mop. class-slots, i think. 2014-11-21T21:10:10Z a20141119 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:10:33Z The_Woodsman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:10:33Z axion: hmm, i'll read up on that 2014-11-21T21:10:37Z jweiss: Bike: jasom: extern does sound like it should give me what i need? (doesn't mangle names, since there's no overloading it shouldn't need to) 2014-11-21T21:10:37Z jasom: Bike: are structure slots defined to be accessible with MOP? 2014-11-21T21:10:40Z rhollor quit (Quit: rhollor) 2014-11-21T21:10:45Z Bike: jasom: nope 2014-11-21T21:10:48Z jasom: jweiss: not extern, extern "C" 2014-11-21T21:10:51Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:10:59Z jweiss: oh i see, sorry didn't realize those were 2 different things. 2014-11-21T21:11:29Z jasom: jweiss: C and C++ have a history of using the same keyword for different purposes (see also "static")\ 2014-11-21T21:11:29Z Bike: jweiss: basically what pjb said is you write a little C interface (shared object) to the C++ code, and use that in cffi instead of the C++. i think this is the usual practice. 2014-11-21T21:11:53Z jasom: jweiss: note that you cannot overload functions with C linkage 2014-11-21T21:11:55Z Bike: since C++ is harder to interoperate with than C is. 2014-11-21T21:12:00Z pt1__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:13:06Z jweiss: ok i'll have to ask the devs of the lib (who work with me) on monday why they do extern and not extern "C". They may be able to change it 2014-11-21T21:13:22Z Bike: because they're writing C++ code. 2014-11-21T21:13:34Z jweiss: yes but this lib is required to interop with other langs 2014-11-21T21:13:37Z Bike: they might want to use things like, you know, overloaded functions, methods. can't do that with C linkage. 2014-11-21T21:13:54Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:14:06Z jweiss: yes but these functions in particular are there just for interop. that's why none are overloaded, and they all take and return standard types. 2014-11-21T21:14:24Z Bike: ok yeah that sounds a bit odd then. 2014-11-21T21:14:35Z axion: google suggests i cannot use mop to iterate over slots of a struct unlike classes 2014-11-21T21:14:38Z jweiss: i'll have to look at the source and see how they're declared 2014-11-21T21:15:16Z Bike: axion: usually if you want to do something like iterate over slots you ought to be using classes anyway. 2014-11-21T21:16:01Z jweiss: yeah, declared with just "export" 2014-11-21T21:16:11Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-21T21:16:33Z Bike: http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/keyword/export man, i love keywords, don't you 2014-11-21T21:16:33Z axion: meh, this is only to pretty print with print-unreadable-object. i can live with the extra hard-coded slots 2014-11-21T21:17:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:17:22Z Bike: structs should be readable, though... 2014-11-21T21:17:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:17:55Z alpha- looks at chat 2014-11-21T21:17:59Z alpha- looks at channel name 2014-11-21T21:18:02Z alpha-: sigh 2014-11-21T21:18:15Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:18:19Z Bike: using C++ from lisp is on-topic, yo. 2014-11-21T21:18:28Z alpha-: it probably is 2014-11-21T21:21:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:25:23Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:28:04Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:29:11Z Posterdati: back! 2014-11-21T21:30:33Z pnpuff: alpha-: so you're not language agnostic! :-) 2014-11-21T21:35:54Z ruste joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:35:56Z ruste_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:37:05Z jweiss quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:41:49Z mishoo_ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2014-11-21T21:41:54Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T21:42:51Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-11-21T21:45:19Z henesy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:45:34Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-21T21:46:19Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:49:24Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:49:45Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:50:18Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:50:34Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:50:34Z pecg quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T21:50:34Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:53:57Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:54:22Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:54:59Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:55:02Z ska-fan joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:55:19Z yuikov quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-21T21:56:50Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T21:56:59Z ska-fan: I want to use lisp to experiment with language and translation. I know Python and other imperative programming languages. I'd like to dive in head-first and learn quick, using a concise resource. Where should I start? Should I use Scheme or CL or does that not matter? Which implementation should I use? Should I use emacs? 2014-11-21T21:57:35Z oGMo: ska-fan: get emacs, slime, sbcl, and go 2014-11-21T21:57:47Z oGMo: i mean, and start using it, don't get "go" :P 2014-11-21T21:57:58Z drmeister: Posterdati: Not my defense, the thesis defense of one of my students. I run a lab of (currently) 11 students. She did an excellent job. 2014-11-21T21:58:29Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-21T21:58:36Z oGMo: ska-fan: CL is more or less as imperative as anything else; there's a lot different, but there's a lot the same. you should be fine. 2014-11-21T21:59:58Z ska-fan: oGMo: ok, I'll try that. Do you know of a concise resource to read? 2014-11-21T22:00:33Z Grue`: minion: tell ska-fan about pcl 2014-11-21T22:00:33Z minion: ska-fan: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-11-21T22:00:37Z oGMo: ska-fan: for what? learning? depends on how concise .. Practical Common Lisp isn't super compressed, but it's a good place to start 2014-11-21T22:00:45Z oGMo: for setting up .. probably read the slime setup guide 2014-11-21T22:00:59Z Grue`: minion: tell ska-fan about quicklisp 2014-11-21T22:00:59Z minion: quicklisp: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 2014-11-21T22:01:23Z oGMo: ah, yes, i keep forgetting that's not included like asdf 2014-11-21T22:01:54Z Grue`: ska-fan: uh, well, anyway go to http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and install that using sbcl oe whatever 2014-11-21T22:02:01Z Grue`: *or 2014-11-21T22:02:04Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T22:02:44Z nyef: Heh. Read that as "sbcl os whatever" and did a double-take. 2014-11-21T22:02:48Z duggiefresh quit 2014-11-21T22:03:01Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:03:16Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:03:32Z lommm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T22:03:46Z lommm joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:03:54Z ska-fan: Grue`: thanks, I'll look at that 2014-11-21T22:04:41Z ahungry quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-21T22:05:04Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T22:06:40Z drl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:07:00Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:08:19Z lommm quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:09:23Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-21T22:09:42Z bambams quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:10:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:10:24Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-11-21T22:10:30Z bambams joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:10:30Z bambams quit (Changing host) 2014-11-21T22:10:30Z bambams joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:15:13Z henesy quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:19:18Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:25:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:26:55Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-21T22:29:18Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:32:22Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:33:07Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-21T22:36:33Z ska-fan: What's the general opinion on Light Table? 2014-11-21T22:37:58Z ruste_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T22:38:01Z ruste quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-21T22:38:19Z Xach: I like Emacs very much and don't have a lot of interest in switching to something new without a really good reason. 2014-11-21T22:38:25Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-21T22:38:38Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:40:39Z Aiwass joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:41:26Z Sikander joined #lisp 2014-11-21T22:41:43Z Sikander: Hi guys 2014-11-21T22:42:55Z Sikander: Has anyone recently managed to install cl+ssl on windows? 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