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Surprised to see that they demonstrate a dialect of lisp that doesn't have commands inside the parens all the time. Anyone know of very early dialects doing so? I always assumed s-expressions were the hallmark of all Lisps. 2014-11-18T02:46:33Z drmeister: People did all kinds of crazy things in the '70s 2014-11-18T02:46:55Z Zhivago: The original syntax was not intended to expose s-expressions to humans. 2014-11-18T02:47:12Z Zhivago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression 2014-11-18T02:47:18Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T02:48:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: The book actually covers two forms for differing Lisp systems. I purchased it mostly for a conversation piece and a bit of history. 2014-11-18T02:48:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think they may be m-expressions as you show there. 2014-11-18T02:50:05Z Pixel_Outlaw: The author makes some rather naughty jokes along the way too. 2014-11-18T02:50:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: An interesting historical look back I guess. 2014-11-18T02:52:17Z akkad: mexp? 2014-11-18T02:52:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T03:02:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: sexp programmers? 2014-11-18T03:06:19Z phserr joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:07:41Z erp joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:13:28Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T03:13:49Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2014-11-18T03:14:30Z girrig joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:15:40Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:19:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ah, it is actually mentioned on page 10 of an old BYTE magazine listed here http://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1979-08-rescan/1979_08_BYTE_04-08_LISP#page/n11/mode/1up 2014-11-18T03:21:03Z linux_dream quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T03:22:21Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T03:22:44Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:22:56Z dagnachew quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-18T03:23:16Z oleo is now known as Guest38444 2014-11-18T03:23:53Z Guest38444 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T03:25:59Z erp quit (Quit: 离开) 2014-11-18T03:28:04Z vinleod_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:29:17Z vinleod quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T03:30:32Z vinleod_ is now known as vinleod 2014-11-18T03:35:35Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:40:45Z fragamus quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-18T03:48:09Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:48:53Z vowyer_ quit (Quit: C-x C-c) 2014-11-18T03:54:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T03:59:16Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T03:59:27Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T03:59:45Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:01:22Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T04:01:49Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:02:33Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:05:49Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:06:05Z beach joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:06:13Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-11-18T04:06:17Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T04:08:11Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:10:16Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:10:48Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2014-11-18T04:11:08Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:11:57Z drmeister: Did you like my Lord of the Rings reference? I thought it was hilarious. 2014-11-18T04:12:09Z beach: I did read it, yes. 2014-11-18T04:13:10Z drmeister: I'll take that as a ringing endorsement. 2014-11-18T04:13:38Z beach: To be honest, it took me a few minutes to get it, because that stuff is not fresh in my memory. 2014-11-18T04:13:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: something something toss it into Mount Doom 2014-11-18T04:14:36Z beach: And even then, I couldn't remember the story. 2014-11-18T04:14:42Z drmeister: It was more the "quest and fellowship" aspect that I was highlighting rather than the "tossing something evil into the fiery abyss". 2014-11-18T04:15:05Z drmeister: There were some movies recently as I recall. 2014-11-18T04:16:18Z wooden_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T04:16:23Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:16:34Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T04:16:34Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:16:39Z drmeister: Anyway, I've got nothing technical to say this evening (your morning) I'm preparing a presentation for tomorrow. 2014-11-18T04:17:06Z beach: drmeister: OK. I have your mail and I know what to work on I think. 2014-11-18T04:17:50Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:19:23Z drmeister: Great! At your leisure. I did go and try to generate some HIR - I ran into a problem that my CLOS doesn't like forward declared classes and there doesn't appear to be a declaration of the ONE-SUCCESSORS-MIXIN class. 2014-11-18T04:19:39Z beach: I saw that in the logs. 2014-11-18T04:19:47Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-11-18T04:19:56Z beach: It is allowed by the standard, but it shouldn't be set up that way. 2014-11-18T04:20:04Z beach: I'll investigate why it happens. 2014-11-18T04:20:13Z drmeister: Yeah - so I consider that bug mine. 2014-11-18T04:21:45Z beach: If that means that ECL has its own implementation of the MOP, and it doesn't allow forward-referenced classes, you might have some work in front of you if you want to fix it. 2014-11-18T04:22:45Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:24:34Z beach: It would be interesting if you end up with SICL's MOP implementation. 2014-11-18T04:24:43Z drmeister: I think it's more likely that I broke ECL CLOS while I was trying to get it to work within Clasp. 2014-11-18T04:24:58Z beach: Yeah, that's possible. 2014-11-18T04:26:04Z zxq9 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:26:51Z drmeister: I got everything else to work but I vaguely remember doing something to forward references. I've got a two hour train ride tomorrow - I'll dig into it. 2014-11-18T04:28:47Z drmeister: Homo sapiens: the tool breaker. 2014-11-18T04:30:44Z viaken quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:32:14Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-11-18T04:36:48Z usrj_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T04:37:49Z beach: You should create your own test for that, because I might modify Cleavir so that it no longer relies on forward-referenced classes. 2014-11-18T04:39:45Z drmeister: Will do. 2014-11-18T04:40:16Z beach vanishes for half an hour. 2014-11-18T04:44:10Z zacharia1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:45:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:50:17Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:50:40Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:53:53Z ered joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:55:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:56:33Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T04:57:22Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:57:29Z viaken joined #lisp 2014-11-18T04:59:16Z girrig joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:03:51Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:06:47Z girrig joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:11:18Z beach: I would like opinions on how to indicate OPTIMIZE levels in ASTs. 2014-11-18T05:11:32Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:11:33Z beach: Possibility 1: indicate the levels in each AST node. 2014-11-18T05:11:45Z beach: Possibility 2: have a special AST node for optimize. 2014-11-18T05:11:54Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:12:06Z beach: Possibility 2a: indicate all OPTIMIZE levels in that node. 2014-11-18T05:12:28Z beach: Possibility 2b: indicate only what changes from levels above. 2014-11-18T05:12:39Z beach: And maybe some other possibilities. 2014-11-18T05:17:37Z cy quit (Quit: :q!) 2014-11-18T05:18:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:20:11Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:20:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:21:15Z psy_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-11-18T05:22:48Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:22:55Z drmeister: beach: Have you seen this? http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4170 It's a discussion on the "AST Typing Problem". There doesn't seem to be a "best way". 2014-11-18T05:23:40Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:23:50Z beach: First time I see it. Thanks. 2014-11-18T05:25:23Z beach: Actually, I think my problem is way simpler. 2014-11-18T05:25:49Z beach: The OPTIMIZE information is always available when the AST nodes are created. 2014-11-18T05:25:49Z drmeister: I thought there was a more recent discussion in Hacker News or www.reddit.com/r/programming that referenced this one - but I can't find it. 2014-11-18T05:26:31Z beach: I think perhaps the simplest solution is number 1. 2014-11-18T05:27:02Z beach: It will take up some room in each AST node, but I think the AST representation is small compared to subsequent intermediate representations. 2014-11-18T05:27:34Z drmeister: Everything ends up in the AST - correct? The environments are only there until the AST is built - correct? 2014-11-18T05:27:42Z beach: Correct. 2014-11-18T05:28:07Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:28:07Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T05:28:07Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:28:10Z beach: Worse that the space problem, how do I pass the optimization levels to the AST constructors without having 3 additional arguments for each constructor? 2014-11-18T05:29:38Z drmeister: Can't you pass the environment and have the constructor pull the information out of that? 2014-11-18T05:29:49Z beach: I was just thinking that. 2014-11-18T05:29:55Z beach: It might be the best solution. 2014-11-18T05:30:48Z p_nathan joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:31:20Z Zhivago: I guess the real question boils down to 'why AST?' 2014-11-18T05:31:27Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:32:13Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:32:35Z drmeister: Well, I wrote a compiler with no AST and it's really, really slow. 2014-11-18T05:32:57Z Bike: beach's asts seem pretty much like an IR to me, really 2014-11-18T05:33:13Z drmeister: Or the code it generates is really, really slow. You need the AST and intermediate representations to be able to reason about program structure. 2014-11-18T05:33:24Z Zhivago: You need some representation, certainly. 2014-11-18T05:33:35Z Zhivago: The question is -- should that be an abstract syntax tree? 2014-11-18T05:34:02Z beach: Bike: I guess I am not familiar with the exact terminology. To me, AST is just one form of intermediate representation. Maybe standard terminology says otherwise. 2014-11-18T05:34:05Z drmeister: Well, you say potato and I say Solanum tuberosum 2014-11-18T05:34:46Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:34:48Z Bike: beach: i don't really know it either, but i think of AST as a pretty 1-1 translation from textual syntax. like this wouldn't even be a question, you'd just have a DECLARE field attached to things. 2014-11-18T05:35:14Z p_nathan: Hey, does anyone have any samples of complex cxml-rpc calls? the examples & tests in the repository are really trivial. 2014-11-18T05:35:31Z beach: Bike: Yes, I see. Such ASTs would be pretty pointless in Common Lisp. 2014-11-18T05:35:44Z Bike: yeah. 2014-11-18T05:36:14Z beach: Maybe I should rename them IR0. End of debate. :) 2014-11-18T05:36:32Z Zhivago: Well, if it isn't an AST, then the issues of ASTs need not apply. :) 2014-11-18T05:36:39Z Bike: i don't think the terminology is a big deal, i'm just thinking maybe zhivago... basically that yeah. 2014-11-18T05:40:30Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:43:35Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:47:23Z ggole: The AST "problem" doesn't seem that hard to me. Maybe I'm missing something. 2014-11-18T05:47:39Z ggole: You either put the information in the nodes or keep a map from nodes to info. 2014-11-18T05:47:53Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T05:48:22Z beach: ggole: Reading that thing, it made me thing it had to do with the restrictions that it has to be done in a functional programming style. 2014-11-18T05:48:27Z beach: think 2014-11-18T05:48:32Z ggole: Dense maps can be made very cheap by assigning contiguous integers to nodes and using an array 2014-11-18T05:48:43Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:49:10Z ggole: You need a few tests to make maps respect the existence of new nodes, but that isn't hard. 2014-11-18T05:49:42Z ggole: beach: well, if you're using a cyclic or graph IR then you end up having to mutate things anyway 2014-11-18T05:49:55Z beach: Yeah, maybe so. 2014-11-18T05:50:16Z beach: I also had a hard time understanding what the problem was. 2014-11-18T05:50:49Z ggole: I get the impression that "shap" expected the map solution to be too expensive because it would require balanced trees or something like that 2014-11-18T05:51:27Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T05:51:49Z drmeister: Good night folks - I have a big day tomorrow. Must get at least a few hours of sleep. 2014-11-18T05:52:25Z beach: Good night drmeister. 2014-11-18T05:56:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:07:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T06:08:50Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:09:29Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:10:58Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:11:47Z izirku quit 2014-11-18T06:16:19Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:17:35Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T06:18:10Z arrsim quit (Quit: bye) 2014-11-18T06:18:43Z arrsim joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:19:24Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:20:57Z shortCircuit__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:22:49Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:24:20Z murftown: hey guys, SBCL question: When I paste long lines of lisp code (> 1000 chars or so) into the SBCL interpreter, it freezes up and won't process them (if I break it up into separate lines, it works fine). Is this a known issue that any of you have encountered? Have any of you successfully fed SBCL very long lines of code? 2014-11-18T06:26:48Z beach: murftown: Works for me. 2014-11-18T06:27:17Z murftown: It may be my computer just acting weird being low on memory or something. I'm going to reboot and try again. Thanks! 2014-11-18T06:27:26Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T06:28:27Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-11-18T06:30:23Z shortCircuit__ is now known as chaotik 2014-11-18T06:30:43Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:32:24Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:33:23Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:34:05Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:35:24Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:36:33Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:37:37Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:38:21Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:39:12Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:40:31Z corni quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:41:27Z murftown: Weird, still happening after reboot - for me it just hangs if I paste in long lines >1000 chars or so. On Mac OS X 10.8, SBCL 1.1.6.0-3c5581a. Oh well, no biggie. 2014-11-18T06:41:41Z murftown: It still handles them if they're in a file, just not if I paste them in. 2014-11-18T06:44:54Z arrsim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T06:45:45Z arrsim joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:46:27Z flip214: murftown: perhaps its the console application that hangs. 2014-11-18T06:46:44Z flip214: how about using swank to move data to and fro SBCL? 2014-11-18T06:47:00Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-11-18T06:47:05Z murftown: flip: yes, I want to learn the whole Emacs/Slime/Swank deal 2014-11-18T06:47:17Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T06:47:41Z murftown: as far as it being the terminal application, perhaps so, but I can paste that long a line into bash or python no problem, and I also tried a different terminal iTerm 2 instead of the regular Terminal app 2014-11-18T06:48:49Z murftown: flip214: the problem I am having getting into SWANK so far is that, for my particular lisp usages I have (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve), which doesn't seem to play nicely with the SWANK unfortunately the way I tried it 2014-11-18T06:49:35Z murftown: I'm sure it'll just take a bit of config 2014-11-18T06:50:06Z murftown: <- very much an emacs n00b / vim head 2014-11-18T06:52:09Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:54:16Z flip214: murftown: do you know the SLIMV plugin for VIM? 2014-11-18T06:54:53Z flip214: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 2014-11-18T06:55:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: murftown, It can take considerably long for Emacs to finally get all the text via a buffer if you paste it in. 2014-11-18T06:55:12Z Pixel_Outlaw: Longer than you might expect. 2014-11-18T06:55:16Z theos joined #lisp 2014-11-18T06:55:17Z murftown: flip214: I have played with it briefly, have not yet gotten that into it 2014-11-18T06:55:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: From the terminal program that is. 2014-11-18T06:55:36Z flip214: murftown: if you are a vim user, use slimv. don't bother with emacs ;P 2014-11-18T06:56:12Z murftown: Pixel_Outlaw: in my current case I am not using emacs at all yet, just plain old sbcl in the terminal (with rlwrap around it to make it a bit nicer) 2014-11-18T06:56:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Oh ok. 2014-11-18T06:56:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: Perhaps the paste takes long because the terminal is parsing your entered text for vt100 control codes. 2014-11-18T06:57:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: Not sure. 2014-11-18T06:57:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T06:57:27Z murftown: flip214: thanks for the tip, I have been a bit torn - I am pretty excited about lisp so the idea of emacs is exciting since it's built on it. but yeah, totally in love with vim, not likely to jump ship except that emacs does have inline images and nice things like that so sometimes I come visit. :P 2014-11-18T06:58:15Z flip214: murftown: the lisp in emacs is not that great. and just wait for neovim... ;) 2014-11-18T06:58:41Z murftown: flip214: (yes!!) 2014-11-18T06:59:25Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-11-18T07:00:00Z flip214: murftown: I'd have jumped ship for hemlock or some other editor that's written in *common* lisp .... 2014-11-18T07:00:28Z flip214: but all of the existing alternatives need to have vim keyboard support written for them. 2014-11-18T07:00:40Z murftown: flip214: whoaa never heard of that 2014-11-18T07:01:22Z flip214: hemlock, second-climacs, .... 2014-11-18T07:01:27Z flip214: all need some amount of work. 2014-11-18T07:01:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: murftown, I would encourage you to enjoy lisp. It is a very fun language. Just try not to force it into acting like C. 2014-11-18T07:01:55Z flip214: I'd think it's less work to get ECL support into neovim (again). 2014-11-18T07:03:33Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:04:11Z murftown: flip214: yeah, I just can't leave vim's flexible mappings and macros, so delicious and dangerous 2014-11-18T07:04:57Z murftown: flip214: so hurrah for neovim 2014-11-18T07:05:05Z flip214: and hurray for slimv. 2014-11-18T07:05:16Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:07:52Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:08:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T07:09:31Z viaken quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T07:10:18Z murftown: is there something I can wrap some common lisp code in that will suppress all output to stdout? 2014-11-18T07:11:11Z H4ns: (with-open-stream (*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream)) ...) 2014-11-18T07:11:30Z H4ns: that is not strictly "stdout", but i guess you meant it. 2014-11-18T07:11:52Z H4ns: if you meant fd 1, then you'll have to close and reopen it on /dev/null using your implementation specific system interface. 2014-11-18T07:12:33Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T07:15:48Z murftown: H4ns: thanks, I am trying to silence all the QuickLisp loading and initialization stuff in my .sbclrc so I can get my lisp scripts to play nicely with unix pipes 2014-11-18T07:16:35Z H4ns: i'd rather dump an image 2014-11-18T07:16:44Z murftown: though really I think it takes too long to start lisp each time so I really need a server that's always running that I can talk to 2014-11-18T07:16:44Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T07:17:10Z murftown: H4ns: dump an image? you mean for saving and loading lisp environment state? 2014-11-18T07:17:20Z H4ns: if you have all your code in a dumped image rather than loading it through quicklisp, startup will be much faster 2014-11-18T07:17:26Z H4ns: look at buildapp 2014-11-18T07:17:31Z murftown: H4ns: ahhhhh gotcha 2014-11-18T07:18:17Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:21:21Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T07:21:58Z murftown: H4ns: hell yeah, downloaded buildapp and it seems fast and nice! thanks 2014-11-18T07:27:00Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:27:03Z meiji11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T07:27:17Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-18T07:29:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:29:24Z murftown: man, my (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) messes everything up! it's boggling buildapp I think 2014-11-18T07:30:47Z H4ns: learn to live with upper casing. 2014-11-18T07:30:54Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-18T07:33:09Z murftown: H4ns: my current use of lisp is to use VIM macros to put parentheses around english text and escape special chars and then dump it straight into lisp for parsing. so I'm trying to use lisp as a general-purpose parser, which seems to work great because lisp allows any character to be in a symbol name as long as you escape it properly. but if I don't preserve case I lose some (to me) important information. maybe I have to fold anyways, 2014-11-18T07:33:10Z murftown: was hoping to keep case intact 2014-11-18T07:34:29Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:36:13Z viaken joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:36:19Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:36:55Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:38:04Z flip214: murftown: if you have vim macros inbetween, you might as well wrap || around the |Symbols|. that would preserve case, too. 2014-11-18T07:38:16Z H4ns: murftown: well, it will make your life harder. maybe you can read your data files using a special read table. 2014-11-18T07:38:22Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:43:04Z murftown: flip214: I was doing some of that but wanted to modify the original text as little as possible - actually it's funny, originally before I learned about backslash for escaping, I was using |pipes| for every word I had a special char in, and that's what made me turn case preserve on, is I hated seeing '(the quick brown |fox's| mom jumped over the lazy dog) turn into (THE QUICK BROWN |fox's| MOM JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG) - but now that I h 2014-11-18T07:43:05Z murftown: backslash I can do '(the quick brown fox\'s mom jumped over the lazy dog) => (THE QUICK BROWN |FOX'S| MOM JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG) so maybe I will switch case upper back on after all :P 2014-11-18T07:47:58Z murftown: H4ns: yes that makes sense, or maybe I can turn case preserve on using some kind of (let () …) call? 2014-11-18T07:48:19Z flip214: murftown: don't write too much text in one line here. "but now that I h" got cut off. 2014-11-18T07:49:16Z murftown: flip214: ok, thanks. here's the chopped end: but now that I have backslash I can do '(the quick brown fox\'s mom jumped over the lazy dog) => (THE QUICK BROWN |FOX'S| MOM JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG) ... 2014-11-18T07:49:27Z murftown: … so maybe I will switch case upper back on after all :P 2014-11-18T07:49:31Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:49:46Z H4ns: murftown: case preservation is a read time thing, so you'll need to make sure that your reader is in the correct state when reading the source file 2014-11-18T07:50:21Z H4ns: murftown: let, in contrast, is not subject to interpretation by the reader, so rebinding the *readtable* in the same file that contains the data will not have the desired effect. 2014-11-18T07:50:52Z murftown: H4ns: right, I think I get that. So if I want to be able to "wrap" some code with Case Preserve On, it will have to be some sort of read macro, yes? 2014-11-18T07:51:00Z H4ns: murftown: in general, i would advise against using the lisp reader to read non-lisp data. it works in many cases, but it is often easier to write a special purpose reader instead. 2014-11-18T07:51:11Z H4ns: murftown: yes (for the read macro) 2014-11-18T07:51:49Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-11-18T07:55:30Z murftown: sure appreciate you guys' help! 2014-11-18T07:58:50Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:00:19Z pppp2 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:01:05Z murftown: H4ns: the read-time thing kind of blows my mind, because that's a call to (SETF) to change the *readtable* case, is SETF always at read-time? I didn't think so, but that's a little perplexing to me to wrap my head around 2014-11-18T08:01:45Z H4ns: setf is not read time, no. 2014-11-18T08:02:23Z murftown: serf is kind of a meta-macro, right? it plugs into specific other macros depending on what you are setf-ing? 2014-11-18T08:03:01Z H4ns: well, it is not very meta, but it is a macro, yes 2014-11-18T08:03:47Z H4ns: it also does not plug in other macros by definition. it expands its arguments into proper function or macro invocations. 2014-11-18T08:04:19Z pgomes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:06:32Z zacharia1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:06:38Z lommm joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:07:45Z murftown: H4ns: ok, that makes sense. Like I can (defvar x '(1 2 3 4 5)) and then (setf (car x) 'hockey) and it will work because I believe it calls some predefined #'(setf car) function 2014-11-18T08:08:24Z H4ns: right. 2014-11-18T08:08:41Z murftown: H4ns: yet if I (defun mylist (L) L) and then (setf (mylist L) '(3 2 1)) it won't work because it tried to call #'(setf mylist) which doesn't exist 2014-11-18T08:09:07Z H4ns: ... but which you can define, yes. 2014-11-18T08:09:11Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T08:10:29Z murftown: H4ns: that's really rad how that's set up! so anyway I'm presuming that the form #'(setf readtable-case) is like a read macro or something so that it can actually set the value at read time 2014-11-18T08:12:04Z flip214: murftown: I'd suggest to read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2014-11-18T08:12:50Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:13:03Z murftown: flip214: thanks, I've already landed on a lot of pages from it as I've googled questions, but yeah, maybe I'll give it a more thorough read 2014-11-18T08:13:06Z flip214: and some more books about lisp, so that you get a better picture about readtime, compiletime, and runtime. 2014-11-18T08:13:22Z H4ns quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T08:13:39Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:14:37Z murftown: yeah, sorry if I'm bombarding you guys with more questions that is desirable 2014-11-18T08:14:50Z murftown: *than is desirable 2014-11-18T08:16:18Z H4ns joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:16:50Z H4ns: murftown: what makes you think that (setf (readtable-case ...) ...) is handled specially? 2014-11-18T08:17:06Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-11-18T08:17:09Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:17:17Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:17:26Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:18:09Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:18:12Z murftown: H4ns: I think I had a misunderstanding of the ordering in which things go. I see now that it is a function (that's what sbcl interpreter says), so I think I get it now that at run time of one expression lisp can set a variable that then impacts the read-time of the next expression, is that correct? 2014-11-18T08:19:14Z H4ns: murftown: correct, you can modify the binding of a variable, then evaluate something which will see the modified value. 2014-11-18T08:23:16Z H4ns: murftown: often, it is preferable to not modify the global binding of a variable, but rather rebind it around the evaluation of some other form 2014-11-18T08:23:17Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:23:58Z H4ns: murftown: for example: (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) (format t "hello world~%")) will print nothing because *standard-output* has been re-bound to a sink 2014-11-18T08:24:30Z Zhivago: murftown: Yes, defmacro works like that. 2014-11-18T08:24:30Z murftown: H4ns: totally get you, one of the things I was learning about that seemed really cool about lisp is dynamic scoping of global variables - so you can do a (LET) basically and the inner functions will see the new binding. really cool 2014-11-18T08:26:21Z rvirding_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:26:52Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:26:52Z Amaan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:27:21Z rvirding__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:27:29Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:28:00Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T08:28:04Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:28:36Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:30:13Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:33:12Z yuikov quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:33:16Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:33:29Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:34:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:39:05Z Nilby joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:39:23Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T08:39:35Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:40:37Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:40:44Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:41:31Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:42:48Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:44:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:46:18Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T08:46:18Z adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T08:51:04Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T08:53:56Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:56:00Z yuikov_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T08:56:11Z yuikov quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T08:56:34Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:01:50Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:02:03Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T09:02:15Z beach left #lisp 2014-11-18T09:05:03Z dbh joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:07:16Z dbh left #lisp 2014-11-18T09:10:39Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T09:12:54Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:13:11Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:15:39Z shifeng quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-11-18T09:17:24Z zacharia1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:18:33Z lavokad joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:19:37Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:21:55Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:27:04Z harish joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:29:10Z lavokad quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T09:35:22Z ozzloy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T09:36:45Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T09:39:52Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-18T10:42:29Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T10:43:00Z francogrex: answering my own question: (setf SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* :utf-8) 2014-11-18T10:44:01Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T10:44:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T10:45:25Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T10:45:33Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-18T10:45:59Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-18T10:49:12Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-11-18T10:49:54Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T10:52:35Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-18T10:54:02Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T10:54:51Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T10:56:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-11-18T10:58:12Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:01:10Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:03:04Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:03:12Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:06:21Z msmith1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:06:43Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:08:52Z kuimacro joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:09:25Z __main__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:10:14Z phserr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T11:11:17Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:12:01Z msmith1: hi all. So I have a postmodern dao that accesses a database column of type date. the slot for the column gets set to a lisp date. The problem is when i go to update the dao, it tries to update the column to the lisp date value. Anyone know of how I can modify the dao so that the value the slot is set to matches the original postgresql date type? 2014-11-18T11:14:38Z Blkt_ is now known as Blkt 2014-11-18T11:16:01Z pppp2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T11:16:18Z axion: i went to browse my code in search of the answer, but it looks like i use bigint for date columns 2014-11-18T11:17:24Z H4ns: msmith1: i'm using cl-postgres+local-time and declare dao columns as timestamp, works for me. 2014-11-18T11:18:33Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:19:27Z msmith1: ok thanks 2014-11-18T11:21:39Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:22:22Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:22:47Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:23:37Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:24:49Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-11-18T11:25:19Z theos joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:25:58Z stepnem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T11:26:57Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T11:29:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:31:32Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:31:53Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:33:02Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:35:46Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:37:25Z kuimacro quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2014-11-18T11:39:27Z chu joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:41:56Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T11:47:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:51:51Z usrj joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:53:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T11:55:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T11:55:35Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T11:56:23Z _main_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:00:38Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2014-11-18T12:01:07Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:04:32Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:08:40Z ellis-a joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:09:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:12:05Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:14:00Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:14:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:18:36Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:22:17Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:23:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:23:43Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:23:57Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:24:26Z przl joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:24:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:24:46Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:27:08Z zacharia1 is now known as zacharias 2014-11-18T12:27:53Z usrj_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:28:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:29:23Z ellis-a quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-18T12:31:22Z usrj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:34:11Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:35:13Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:35:32Z EvW quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-11-18T12:36:11Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:38:52Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T12:39:17Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:41:37Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:42:08Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:42:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:43:25Z cpc26 quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-18T12:44:34Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-18T12:47:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:48:51Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:52:02Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:52:42Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T12:52:58Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T12:53:30Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T13:01:01Z usrj joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:01:08Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T13:03:30Z usrj_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T13:03:51Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-11-18T13:05:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T13:07:11Z usrj quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2014-11-18T13:07:32Z usrj joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:13:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:14:34Z k-dawg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:15:46Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:16:18Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:17:37Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T13:17:37Z pranavrc quit 2014-11-18T13:17:40Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:19:27Z __main__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:26:47Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:33:02Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:33:13Z nyef: G'morning all. 2014-11-18T13:33:14Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:38:06Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:38:08Z chu joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:39:54Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-11-18T13:40:35Z murftown: I have a question. Can function names somehow be lists? For example I noticed #'(setf car) is a function. But how would I define a function with a name like that? (defun '(setf car) ()) says "not legal as a function name" 2014-11-18T13:43:13Z Xach: murftown: (defun (setf foo) ...) 2014-11-18T13:43:33Z Xach: murftown: (setf car) is forbidden for other reasons 2014-11-18T13:43:51Z Xach: murftown: it's only legal for setf functions, you can't just use any list as a name. 2014-11-18T13:44:25Z murftown: Xach: oh rats! I thought I could use any list 2014-11-18T13:44:46Z murftown: Xach: was getting excited there for a second. thanks for your help 2014-11-18T13:44:49Z H4ns: murftown: but why? 2014-11-18T13:45:37Z murftown: H4ns: for storing semantic data on linguistic forms for natural language processing, to make evaluating texts easier to manage 2014-11-18T13:46:31Z murftown: H4ns: guess I could hack something up that would do the equivalent thing by building a symbol-name out of all the parts of a list and automatically calling that function 2014-11-18T13:46:33Z H4ns: nothing prevents you from putting your functions into, say, a hash table with arbitrary strings used as the key. 2014-11-18T13:46:53Z murftown: H4ns: true, true 2014-11-18T13:47:13Z H4ns: as i wrote earlier, it makes sense to use the lisp reader for lisp source code and not try to abuse it for arbitrary data. 2014-11-18T13:47:45Z murftown: H4ns: I hear you, though I'm inclined to keep going until I hit more of a wall :P 2014-11-18T13:49:09Z pjb: murftown: why didn't you try to (defun {+=./?(setf car) …) instead of just (defun '(setf car) …)? 2014-11-18T13:49:23Z pjb: I can't see the logic in trying '(setf car) and not some other random syntax. 2014-11-18T13:50:05Z Xach: pjb: That is a personal problem that is probably best kept to yourself. 2014-11-18T13:50:17Z Xach: Just silently meditate on your failure to make the connection. 2014-11-18T13:50:26Z murftown: pjb: I was excited about the prospect that lisp could somehow have "compound symbols": that you could have list forms that were also known to have symbolic value either as a function or variable. 2014-11-18T13:50:54Z pjb: No, not at all. This week I read a system that was able to reconstitute a JPEG file by randomly trying to run a jpeg parser on random data, and filtering out things until something was readable. 2014-11-18T13:50:57Z murftown: pjb: seeing (setf car) being a function name made me believe that some structure like this existed in lisp 2014-11-18T13:51:08Z pjb: Xach: stop being idiotic! 2014-11-18T13:51:18Z pjb: murftown: but why the quote? 2014-11-18T13:51:24Z Xach: pjb: ah, that explains your irc production! random garbage until someone says "thanks, that made sense!" 2014-11-18T13:51:33Z pjb: You don't write (defun 'name …) so why (defun '(setf foo) …)? 2014-11-18T13:51:46Z pjb: Xach: go away. 2014-11-18T13:51:48Z murftown: pjb: tried with and without the quote 2014-11-18T13:52:07Z murftown: pjb: I get you about the inconsistency that's why I tried both 2014-11-18T13:52:08Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T13:52:15Z murftown: anyways gotta go guys, thanks again 2014-11-18T13:52:19Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T13:52:29Z Xach: Hey, it worked! 2014-11-18T13:52:32Z Xach: Congrats, pjb. 2014-11-18T13:52:45Z pjb: You're alone to be congratulated on this one. 2014-11-18T13:52:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:52:59Z Longlius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T13:53:17Z farhaven quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-18T13:53:38Z farhaven joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:55:43Z jbf````` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T13:56:13Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T13:57:21Z _main_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:57:27Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:58:17Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-18T13:59:24Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:00:42Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T14:01:05Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2014-11-18T14:01:12Z pjb: Xach: http://lcamtuf.blogspot.fr/2014/11/pulling-jpegs-out-of-thin-air.html 2014-11-18T14:01:34Z pjb: You could apply the same algorithm, to pull Common Lisp programs out of thin air. 2014-11-18T14:01:43Z pjb: or die trying at least. 2014-11-18T14:01:49Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:02:05Z pjb: At least murftown seemed to be going this way, and you didn't help him out of it. 2014-11-18T14:02:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:03:38Z Xach: If you believe he was writing a dumb thing with a firm belief in its technical correctness, that is a case of projection. 2014-11-18T14:04:03Z pjb: He was just trying random stuff instead of fucking reading the books! 2014-11-18T14:04:38Z Xach: The gravest sin! 2014-11-18T14:04:47Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:05:07Z chaotik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T14:05:20Z Xach: And here I thought your performance art was for entertainment. Now I see it is for punishment, both of the perpetrator and the spectators. 2014-11-18T14:06:45Z pjb: You know, negative re-inforcement, and positive re-inforcement. Stuff like that. 2014-11-18T14:08:01Z H4ns: Xach: can you prefix your discussions with pjb with his nick name, please? 2014-11-18T14:08:11Z Xach: Sure. 2014-11-18T14:08:17Z H4ns: Xach: thanks! :) 2014-11-18T14:08:24Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:08:37Z Xach needs a smarter client 2014-11-18T14:09:48Z fe[nl]ix: when was unwind-protect introduced ? 2014-11-18T14:10:30Z fe[nl]ix: I was able to find a'79 paper on NIL by John L. White 2014-11-18T14:12:44Z mhd_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T14:13:26Z moore33: fe[nl]ix: I think it's described in Anatomy of Lisp, which is from '78. 2014-11-18T14:14:06Z moore33: But I seem to recall that gls and rpg describe it in their history too. 2014-11-18T14:14:23Z moore33: So early 70s Maclisp. 2014-11-18T14:15:20Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:15:33Z clop joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:21:08Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-18T14:22:04Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:23:04Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-18T14:23:42Z fe[nl]ix: moore33: thanks 2014-11-18T14:33:18Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:33:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:34:26Z theos: Xach try bitchx 2014-11-18T14:37:03Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T14:38:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:39:52Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T14:40:31Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:41:32Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T14:42:20Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T14:42:38Z H4ns: haha, yeah 2014-11-18T14:42:46Z H4ns: that said, erc serves me just fine. 2014-11-18T14:42:59Z nyef: ... Or embed eliza in beirc? 2014-11-18T14:44:50Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:46:45Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:47:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:48:06Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:50:57Z dlowe: I like erc, but it clutters my buffer list too much. 2014-11-18T14:52:00Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:52:41Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T14:56:06Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T14:56:09Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T15:02:49Z luis likes circe (also an Emacs client) 2014-11-18T15:04:10Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T15:06:49Z usrj quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2014-11-18T15:06:55Z _fre_nod_ir joined #lisp 2014-11-18T15:07:32Z _fre_nod_ir quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-11-18T15:07:59Z _fre_nod_ir joined #lisp 2014-11-18T15:08:37Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T15:08:41Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T15:08:41Z pecg quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T15:08:41Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T15:10:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-11-18T15:12:46Z mhd_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Just wanted to check I wasn't totally off the mark with the 'character buffer' idea 2014-11-18T16:39:41Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:40:49Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T16:42:43Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:43:39Z Nilby quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T16:46:44Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T16:47:29Z cy joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:47:55Z ilhami joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:47:57Z ilhami: Hey 2014-11-18T16:48:10Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:48:18Z ilhami: does LISP work with MySQL? :D 2014-11-18T16:48:43Z stassats: Common Lisp does 2014-11-18T16:49:09Z ilhami: http://www.obrezan.com/lisp/mysql/ cool :D 2014-11-18T16:49:32Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-18T16:50:01Z usrj quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-11-18T16:50:03Z dim: ilhami: it works better with PostgreSQL tho ;-) 2014-11-18T16:50:15Z loke_: ilhami: If you're using mysql, not even CL can help you 2014-11-18T16:50:28Z stassats: ilhami: that doesn't sound like a useful page 2014-11-18T16:51:03Z ilhami: I am ready to learn about LISP. but where should I start? 2014-11-18T16:51:35Z Shinmera: Start by not writing it in caps 2014-11-18T16:51:40Z dim: there are currently 3 drivers for MySQL, obrezan is the most incomplete one but promissing, then there's the cl-mysql which is a CFFI based one, and the qmynd one which is a pure-cl one and quite complete 2014-11-18T16:51:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:52:00Z ilhami: Shinmera lol 2014-11-18T16:52:32Z ilhami: do you have any starter material? 2014-11-18T16:52:58Z oGMo: loke_: so true 2014-11-18T16:53:04Z stassats: minion: please tell ilhami about pcl 2014-11-18T16:53:04Z minion: ilhami: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-11-18T16:53:33Z ilhami: minion .. will bookmark that now! 2014-11-18T16:53:39Z ilhami: thanks. 2014-11-18T16:54:57Z Xach: loke_: hello 2014-11-18T16:55:04Z loke_: Hello 2014-11-18T16:55:06Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-11-18T16:55:21Z loke_: Xach: The problem is easy to reproduce. 2014-11-18T16:55:29Z Xach: Ok 2014-11-18T16:55:49Z stassats: oh hell, there's CONFIG_STRICT_DEVMEM, no wonder all my reading form /dev/mem fails 2014-11-18T16:55:50Z loke_: Xach: Start with a clean installation, and make sure that your _first_ call to S3 is (ZS3:HEAD ...) 2014-11-18T16:55:56Z loke_: It will fail with a 301 2014-11-18T16:56:11Z loke_: if you do any other (non-HEAD) calls, it will succeed, and then all is good. 2014-11-18T16:56:21Z loke_: It doesn't update the redirect cache on HEAD calls 2014-11-18T16:56:41Z Xach: loke_: neat. can you please open an issue on github for me to track it? 2014-11-18T16:56:47Z loke_: sure 2014-11-18T16:56:57Z loke_: I'll do that tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now 2014-11-18T16:57:00Z Xach: I hope to be poking around in zs3 soon. I'd like to add multipart upload sometime soon. 2014-11-18T16:57:08Z loke_: Xach: I have a feature request too 2014-11-18T16:57:15Z Xach: I tried to upload a 28GB backup file and it kept failing with connection reset by peer. 2014-11-18T16:57:42Z loke_: Xach: Do you think it'd be possible to add another &key argument to zs3:authorized-url? I'd like to be able to specify the content-disposition parameter 2014-11-18T16:58:55Z Xach: loke_: does that work? i thought you had to specify that as part of the object, not its authorized url. if i'm wrong i'd be happy to add it. 2014-11-18T17:00:15Z loke_: Xach: This post suggests you can add "response-content-disposition" 2014-11-18T17:00:16Z loke_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12557980/unable-to-override-content-disposition-header-in-s3 2014-11-18T17:01:01Z loke_: Yes. It's documented here: http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonS3/latest/API/RESTObjectGET.html 2014-11-18T17:01:22Z loke_: While you're at it, response-content-type would be nice too 2014-11-18T17:01:43Z Xach: cool 2014-11-18T17:01:51Z loke_: wow, there is also cache-control 2014-11-18T17:01:52Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T17:01:53Z Xach: a github issue would help very much 2014-11-18T17:01:57Z loke_: sure 2014-11-18T17:02:04Z loke_: Like I said, I'll file it tomorrow 2014-11-18T17:02:24Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T17:02:51Z loke_: See you :-) 2014-11-18T17:03:19Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:03:58Z loke_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T17:07:05Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:09:05Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T17:10:58Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T17:11:31Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:13:02Z beach: drmeister: Around? 2014-11-18T17:16:00Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T17:16:12Z beach: drmeister: I just pushed some changes to the AST-to-HIR system, so that it can handle multiple values, but I haven't tested it yet. So if you attempt to use it, expect problems. I will write tests for it tomorrow (central European time). 2014-11-18T17:17:59Z stassats wants a #lisp-hardware channel 2014-11-18T17:19:07Z moore33 quit 2014-11-18T17:24:20Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:25:25Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:25:47Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:25:50Z DGASAU quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T17:27:00Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:31:53Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:33:09Z test1600 left #lisp 2014-11-18T17:35:39Z ggole quit 2014-11-18T17:36:02Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-11-18T17:38:36Z pgomes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T17:39:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:42:58Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:43:56Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T17:47:12Z nate_c joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:48:30Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:50:45Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:50:59Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:52:16Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:54:31Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:55:46Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-11-18T17:59:21Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T18:01:57Z beach left #lisp 2014-11-18T18:02:36Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T18:02:36Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T18:08:30Z drmeister: beach: I'm on trains. In and out if communication 2014-11-18T18:08:57Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T18:10:28Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-18T18:17:38Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:18:45Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T18:22:58Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T18:23:13Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:24:39Z Subfusc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T18:24:54Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:32:08Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T18:32:08Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T18:32:13Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:32:24Z alpha- joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:34:24Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T18:34:55Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:34:58Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:41:20Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T18:44:39Z thawes_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2014-11-18T18:45:01Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:46:22Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:48:07Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-11-18T18:52:29Z askatasuna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T18:56:22Z bsima quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-18T18:56:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-18T18:59:22Z rhollor: has anyone here used lisp for gui programming? 2014-11-18T19:00:36Z Shinmera: I have 2014-11-18T19:00:43Z jasom: I have 2014-11-18T19:00:54Z rhollor: what kind of toolkits are available? 2014-11-18T19:01:45Z rhollor: or rather, what would you recommend? 2014-11-18T19:01:47Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:01:48Z jasom: rhollor: there are GTK and QT bindings, as well as LTK which uses Tk and mcclim which implements an interface peculiar to lisp 2014-11-18T19:02:00Z Shinmera: I have only used CommonQt 2014-11-18T19:02:22Z jasom: rhollor: I personally use LTK which is great for just "I need a quick gui" but not as good for if you want to do fancy custom stuff 2014-11-18T19:02:26Z Shinmera: So I can't really make any judgement. 2014-11-18T19:02:35Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:02:44Z rhollor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T19:02:57Z Shinmera: ok then. 2014-11-18T19:03:43Z Blaguvest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T19:03:59Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:04:32Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:05:32Z rhollor quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-18T19:05:41Z stassats: i ran away from mcclim to commonqt 2014-11-18T19:06:20Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:06:36Z rhollor quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-18T19:07:07Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-18T19:08:16Z jasom: I started on lisp GUIs a while ago (maybe 2007 ish?) and at that point LTK was the only one that didn't crash my image on the first gui I tried to implement. Things have improved since then I understand though. 2014-11-18T19:08:45Z jasom: oh, garnet didn't crash either, but it was essentially dead by then 2014-11-18T19:09:29Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:11:08Z rhollor: jasom I experienced some network issues. Can you repeat anything you said to me concerning gui programming? 2014-11-18T19:11:26Z dlowe: check the irc logs link in the topic 2014-11-18T19:11:30Z dlowe: a lot was said 2014-11-18T19:12:08Z rhollor: dlowe: thanks, I didn't know that was there 2014-11-18T19:12:30Z z_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:12:32Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:12:53Z z_ is now known as Guest88032 2014-11-18T19:13:14Z schjetne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T19:13:54Z jasom: rhollor: the log I saw didn't seem to have it, so here's a quick paste of the last few minutes: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144403 2014-11-18T19:14:23Z rhollor: jasom: Thanks, but I found the log and read everything 2014-11-18T19:14:33Z schjetne joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:15:07Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:15:46Z rhollor: jasom: I'm comepletely new to gui programming. What would you recommend for beginner? 2014-11-18T19:16:41Z Xach: rhollor: what are you trying to make? 2014-11-18T19:16:48Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:17:21Z dlowe: rhollor: for a beginner, I'd recommend writing a web app :) 2014-11-18T19:17:49Z Shinmera: Idk why people keep equating writing web-apps with writing guis since the two are rather different worlds. 2014-11-18T19:18:00Z rhollor: Xach: nothing really in particular. I'm in it for the sake of learning and it would be cool if I could add even a simple interface to a program 2014-11-18T19:18:04Z dlowe: It's not an equivalence. 2014-11-18T19:18:17Z dlowe: But basic HTML is "making an interface"-lite 2014-11-18T19:18:24Z rhollor: dlowe: I've already been through web design 2014-11-18T19:18:53Z rhollor: dlowe: I created a few websites, then moved on to bigger and better things 2014-11-18T19:18:55Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:19:16Z dlowe: rhollor: ah, well, not really a beginner, then. I usually use ltk 2014-11-18T19:19:20Z Shinmera: dlowe: How things work with gui toolkits and how they work in the web world are so vastly different to me that I really don't want to compare the two at all, except maybe for the end-user experience. 2014-11-18T19:19:32Z Shinmera: But anyway 2014-11-18T19:19:57Z Shinmera: I should get back to working on my CommonQt app. 2014-11-18T19:20:01Z dlowe: Shinmera: Look at it from the perspective of "I want another interface than a terminal" 2014-11-18T19:20:05Z Guest88032 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T19:20:19Z dlowe: learning one won't get you practice in the other 2014-11-18T19:20:27Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:20:36Z dlowe: but either will get you away from stdout and stdin 2014-11-18T19:20:46Z Shinmera: Well in that case it's certainly a fair suggestion, but he was asking for gui toolkits, so 2014-11-18T19:20:57Z rhollor: Shinmera: the combination of html, css, and javascript seem to work together so well. Why aren't there any real tollkits like that? 2014-11-18T19:21:06Z Shinmera: What 2014-11-18T19:21:16Z Shinmera: HTML, CSS and JS work as well together as oil and water. 2014-11-18T19:21:21Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T19:21:29Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T19:21:32Z dlowe: heh. What Shinmera said. 2014-11-18T19:21:51Z nyef: So... you need an emulsifier to keep them from separating? 2014-11-18T19:21:56Z Xach: that reminds me of something don hopkins wrote about NeWS 2014-11-18T19:22:09Z jasom: Shinmera: I was thinking more fire and water 2014-11-18T19:22:28Z Xach: approximately: "NeWS was like html, css, and javascript, except you had postscript for the display layer, postscript for the styling layer, and postscript for the scripting layer." 2014-11-18T19:22:40Z nyef: jasom: The water is used to spread it around more, because it's a grease fire? 2014-11-18T19:22:57Z Shinmera: Analogies are great 2014-11-18T19:23:27Z jasom: rhollor: there is thrust though. Shouldn't be too hard to make lisp bindings 2014-11-18T19:24:02Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, etc.) 2014-11-18T19:24:10Z rhollor: well, excuse me for my blasphemous opinions, but I quite like how they all work together 2014-11-18T19:24:27Z jasom: rhollor: no need to apologize for your opinions 2014-11-18T19:24:28Z rhollor: It all works nicely, if you write it right 2014-11-18T19:24:52Z dlowe: Xach: never heard of that. sad that it didn't gain more acceptance. 2014-11-18T19:24:59Z dlowe: Xach: wrong place, wrong time 2014-11-18T19:25:10Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/108729.html has the actual quote (and a quote from him about lua and CLOS). sadly the link to the email is dead. 2014-11-18T19:25:10Z mearnsh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:25:38Z dlowe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS is informative. 2014-11-18T19:26:23Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:26:31Z rhollor: in any case, what I gather is that LTK is a good starting point then? 2014-11-18T19:26:43Z stassats: if you like tk 2014-11-18T19:26:48Z dlowe: Xach: it doesn't appear that you could link to other servers, though, which is a big deal 2014-11-18T19:27:24Z dlowe: rhollor: http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 2014-11-18T19:27:26Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-18T19:27:38Z dlowe: cl-gtk2 is also supposed to be good. 2014-11-18T19:27:46Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:29:33Z jasom: rhollor: most of the GUI toolkits have the downside that you need to figure out how they work from a few examples and the documentation for the non-lisp version of them; if anyone has a counterexample (other than CLIM) let me know. 2014-11-18T19:30:02Z jasom: e.g. if you use LTK you'll be reading a lot of Tk documentation, if you use cl-gtk you'll be reading a lot of GTK documentation, @ct. 2014-11-18T19:30:07Z stassats: that seems like an upside, documentation for free 2014-11-18T19:30:27Z jasom: stassats: except it's not always clear how the two are related, without judicious use of M-. 2014-11-18T19:31:02Z jasom: stassats: and Tk documentation is easier to read if you know tcl, gtk documentation if you know C, and Qt if you know C++ 2014-11-18T19:31:11Z stassats: i don't know c++ 2014-11-18T19:31:44Z jasom: stassats: I said "easier"; any reduced mental load is good if it's rhollor's first GUI experience 2014-11-18T19:32:41Z jasom: rhollor: if you do use LTK, feel free to pick my brain for any problems you have 2014-11-18T19:33:22Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:33:25Z Shinmera: Qt's docs are perfectly fine to read for use in CommonQt 2014-11-18T19:33:30Z rhollor: jasom: pretty much, I tried learning the WxPerl one and they're like "if you don't know all this stuff in C++ you're pretty much screwwed hehehe>…" 2014-11-18T19:33:37Z Shinmera: or at least I was never confused about how to relate them. 2014-11-18T19:33:57Z jasom: rhollor: it sholdn't be that bad 2014-11-18T19:34:25Z rhollor: Shinmera: I'll give it a look over 2014-11-18T19:35:37Z jasom: I may move to CommonQt. I always felt that Qt was the best cross-platform GUI toolkit in general. I found about a half-dozen broken attempts at bindings when I first looked for a toolkit. 2014-11-18T19:36:37Z jasom: Tk is really good in that regard, except for certain eccentricities in the implementation (e.g. nobody will believe you when you tell them how to make a pane of widgets that scrolls) 2014-11-18T19:37:18Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:37:43Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:38:36Z theseb: now that lisp machines are history....is the entire notion of making cpus optimized for functional langs dead ?...I don't see why cpus must naturally be only optimized for C which they essentially are now 2014-11-18T19:38:52Z rhollor: stassats: you must be an active contributor to CommonQT 2014-11-18T19:39:47Z rhollor: stassats: I see your name a lot CommonQT gitorious page 2014-11-18T19:40:20Z stassats: i'm the maintainer, right 2014-11-18T19:41:17Z theseb: stassats: i assume your happy qt *finally* went lgpl after what like 20 years? 2014-11-18T19:41:33Z stassats: i don't think i ever cared 2014-11-18T19:41:39Z alpha-: is there some way in emacs/slime to evaluate the current topmost form but show the return value in repl, not in echo area? 2014-11-18T19:41:45Z stassats: and that was some time ago 2014-11-18T19:41:57Z stassats: alpha-: C-c C-c 2014-11-18T19:42:14Z rhollor: stassats: There's no real reason I mentioned that. I just think it's cool seeing familiar names in the wild 2014-11-18T19:42:32Z alpha-: stassats that gives me no output.. 2014-11-18T19:42:41Z alpha-: while C-M-x does 2014-11-18T19:42:52Z alpha-: I'm not printing anything, just returning a value 2014-11-18T19:42:54Z stassats: add a print statement if you want it 2014-11-18T19:43:02Z alpha-: hmh 2014-11-18T19:43:03Z alpha-: I see 2014-11-18T19:44:47Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:45:06Z alpha-: is there some quick way to show and hide the repl? 2014-11-18T19:45:17Z stassats: C-c C-z will show the repl 2014-11-18T19:45:23Z stassats: C-x 0 will hide it 2014-11-18T19:46:03Z stassats: alpha-: see also http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/10980136698/slime-selector 2014-11-18T19:47:34Z rhollor: what is SLIME? 2014-11-18T19:47:53Z rhollor: I mean, I know it's a CL editor 2014-11-18T19:48:04Z Xach: slime is an emacs program that creates a nice CL development environment. 2014-11-18T19:48:23Z alpha-: I'm finding it hard to use 2014-11-18T19:48:32Z rhollor: does everybody use it? 2014-11-18T19:48:37Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:48:37Z alpha-: then again I don't know what I'm doing so 2014-11-18T19:48:39Z Xach: rhollor: no, but most here do. 2014-11-18T19:48:44Z stassats: rhollor: everybody who values their time 2014-11-18T19:48:51Z stassats: minion: please tell alpha- about slime.mov 2014-11-18T19:48:51Z minion: alpha-: look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 2014-11-18T19:48:52Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T19:49:02Z rhollor: I guess I should give it a spin then 2014-11-18T19:49:08Z alpha-: will watch, thanks 2014-11-18T19:50:28Z juiko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T19:52:49Z schjetne quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T19:52:49Z schjetne joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:54:01Z theseb: now that lisp machines are history....is the entire notion of making cpus optimized for functional langs dead ?...I don't see why cpus must naturally be only optimized for C which they essentially are now 2014-11-18T19:54:41Z stassats: yes, it is dead 2014-11-18T19:54:45Z stassats: not enough volume to compete 2014-11-18T19:55:18Z stassats: i wouldn't say that CPUs are particular optimized for C 2014-11-18T19:55:22Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:55:32Z jasom: theseb: it turns out it's more economical to run functional languages on general purpose hardware than to make custom CPUs 2014-11-18T19:55:42Z jasom: stassats: I would say they are particularly optimize for dhrystone 2014-11-18T19:56:28Z theseb: stassats, jasom: i guess my question is more academic....must we conclude that the way we do cpus now is some local maximum of best practices? 2014-11-18T19:56:36Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-11-18T19:57:13Z jasom: theseb: currently general purpose CPUs is the local maximum, it may change has single-core performance is getting harder to improve 2014-11-18T19:57:19Z stassats: things could be better, naturally, take the legacy instructions, for example 2014-11-18T19:57:37Z jasom: theseb: economies of scale mean that general purpose CPUs will out-perform special purpose CPUs on a per-dollar basis 2014-11-18T19:58:00Z ilhami quit (Quit: Bye!!!) 2014-11-18T19:58:44Z theseb: jasom: could say...a cpu optimized for lambda calculus be "general purpose" too? 2014-11-18T19:59:08Z stassats: lambda calculus is a poor way to express real world computations 2014-11-18T19:59:32Z theseb: jasom: if you know computability theory.....today's cpus are based on "random access register machines"......seems there is no reason we couldn't base our core machines on another model of computation like lambda calculus or even something else 2014-11-18T19:59:49Z stassats: i think the reason is sanity 2014-11-18T19:59:58Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T20:00:11Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-11-18T20:00:59Z theseb: stassats: perhaps it will always make sense to 1. make random access register based cpus ...2. implement C on it... 3. implement lisp and other functional languages in C 2014-11-18T20:01:18Z stassats: it makes little sense to implement lisp in C, actually 2014-11-18T20:01:47Z theseb: stassats: since C is a more primitive language maybe it does make sense to always do it like that..i don't think anyone would argue that lambda calculus, lisp and other functional languages are as primitive implementation wise as C 2014-11-18T20:02:10Z stassats: lisp is not particularly functional 2014-11-18T20:02:26Z jasom: theseb: lisp is not particularly functional and it's about 50/50 for lisps being implemented in C or something else 2014-11-18T20:02:45Z stassats: and C is not low level enough to implement CL well 2014-11-18T20:03:21Z jasom: at least for open source ones, we have the cmu descendents and the MCL descendents implemented in lisp and the KCL descendents and clisp implemented in lisp 2014-11-18T20:03:29Z jasom: er kcl and clisp in C 2014-11-18T20:05:17Z foom joined #lisp 2014-11-18T20:05:19Z theseb: stassats: unless your favorite CL implementat is written in asm i seriously doubt it is written in anything else besides C right? 2014-11-18T20:05:36Z stassats: see what jasom said 2014-11-18T20:05:54Z stassats: SBCL is written in Lisp and compiles down to machine instructions 2014-11-18T20:07:32Z theseb: stassats: compiling lisp to assembly? wow 2014-11-18T20:07:41Z stassats: to machine code 2014-11-18T20:08:00Z jasom: theseb: to machine code; it's a new idea, didn't happen until the late 70s I think. 2014-11-18T20:08:07Z stassats: what else can you compile into? 2014-11-18T20:08:26Z theseb: stassats: well i'm used to python and java that compile to virtual machine code (bytecode) 2014-11-18T20:08:27Z nyef: ... you can compile into a book, can't you? Aren't some books called "compilations"? 2014-11-18T20:09:11Z theseb: stassats: i assumed lisps all were interpreted and ran in some kind of VM too 2014-11-18T20:09:26Z stassats: VMs are stupid 2014-11-18T20:09:37Z jasom: theseb: I think machine-code compiled lisps predate C, but I could be wrong. 2014-11-18T20:09:45Z theseb: stassats: the problem with python and i assume lisp is that the dynamic typing makes compilation to machine code hard 2014-11-18T20:10:08Z theseb: stassats: how can "compiler" know what type you want for a var since you didn't need to declare it? 2014-11-18T20:10:34Z stassats: the compiler is smart 2014-11-18T20:10:36Z joga: you can tell it also 2014-11-18T20:10:47Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-11-18T20:11:11Z stassats: jasom: 1962? 2014-11-18T20:11:15Z theseb: hmmm then i don't know why this has been a decades long effort in python land 2014-11-18T20:11:30Z theseb: it taken some of the best minds in compilers to get python to machine code 2014-11-18T20:11:31Z msmith1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T20:11:32Z jasom: stassats: that's way before C, yeah. I thought EVAL was still interpreted then 2014-11-18T20:11:47Z jasom: theseb: they need to maintain CPython compatibility which is a PITA 2014-11-18T20:11:58Z bsima1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T20:12:06Z foom: Common Lisp has optional type declarations. You use those if you want generated code to be fast. 2014-11-18T20:12:21Z foom: Python doesn't have that, so the compiler needs to be smart enough to figure everything out by itself. That's a lot more smarts. 2014-11-18T20:13:12Z foom: Also, Python has a horribly inefficient-to-implement concurrency model, where all the built in functions and data-structures need to be atomic. 2014-11-18T20:13:12Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T20:14:17Z theseb: foom: yes from it appears even if you never use type declarations that CL can *still* be compiled to machine code 2014-11-18T20:14:22Z wasamasa: theseb: to be honest, neither python nor ruby are terribly good implementations of interpreters 2014-11-18T20:14:29Z foom: python can be too, easily. 2014-11-18T20:14:32Z joga: the book Let Over Lambda had a chapter that illustrated optimizing the machine code generation, too bad the chapter isn't available online 2014-11-18T20:14:34Z wasamasa: theseb: their designers have screwed up a lot 2014-11-18T20:14:35Z theseb: i believe it but i don't see how it is possible 2014-11-18T20:14:35Z foom: it will just be slow machine code. 2014-11-18T20:14:51Z theseb: unless there were some compiler geniuses in lisp's history 2014-11-18T20:14:52Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T20:14:54Z wasamasa: theseb: CL is on different footing 2014-11-18T20:15:12Z wasamasa: theseb: the people behind it have actually learned from their mistakes 2014-11-18T20:15:15Z joga: where else would the geniuses be heh 2014-11-18T20:15:21Z wasamasa: theseb: it was never a single implementation rules them all thing 2014-11-18T20:15:27Z foom: lisp compilers are generally pretty straightforward. 2014-11-18T20:15:36Z foom: The language is a lot simpler. 2014-11-18T20:15:58Z theseb: foom: yes python can make slow machine code too...you basically need multiple copies of executables for all the possible types your variables MAY take :) 2014-11-18T20:16:09Z theseb: foom: so it is a huge binary mess 2014-11-18T20:16:12Z foom: No, you just call a function for every operation. 2014-11-18T20:16:39Z foom: Just like in lisp, you have something like: (defun x (a b) (+ a b))? It compiles into machine code which simply does a function call to "generic+" 2014-11-18T20:17:12Z theseb: foom: wow..what a bookkeeping nightmare...amazing it all works 2014-11-18T20:17:21Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T20:17:35Z foom: If you only ever did that, that's like, the simplest possible compiler to write. 2014-11-18T20:18:20Z foom: Lisp compilers are usually smarter than that, in that if you tell them the types of the variables, they can compile into an "ADD" machine instruction instead of a slow function call. 2014-11-18T20:18:50Z theseb: foom: your func can have at least 9 pathways to compile for.....e.g. a= integer, b=integer, a=float, b=integer, a=string/b=string, etc. 2014-11-18T20:19:13Z stassats: strings can't be added 2014-11-18T20:19:18Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T20:19:40Z foom: yes, that is true. generic+ is a function that enumerates all the possibilities for the argument types, and converts as appropriate. 2014-11-18T20:19:48Z theseb: stassats: sure..in lisp the syntax is different...but the point is a compiler must be very smart to account for all possiblities since we don't do "int a, int b" like in C 2014-11-18T20:20:03Z stassats: computers are good at keeping track of things 2014-11-18T20:20:17Z stassats: the same thing is with C compilers 2014-11-18T20:20:58Z foom: anyways, SBCL, unusually for CL compilers, but like all modern compilers, also does type propagation, so that the source code doesn't need to declare the types of every intermediary variable. 2014-11-18T20:21:10Z oGMo: theseb: eh 2014-11-18T20:21:17Z oGMo: not really 2014-11-18T20:21:53Z oGMo: either you know what it is, or you write a bit of code to check what it is and act accordingly 2014-11-18T20:22:03Z bsima1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-18T20:22:28Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-18T21:25:43Z akkad: rhollor: yeah quicklisp slime-helper.el is best 2014-11-18T21:31:25Z Xach: step 1: install quicklisp, step 2: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper"), step 3: follow what it prints 2014-11-18T21:33:26Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:33:36Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T21:35:07Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:35:26Z rhollor: Xach: would this make slime work for sbcl too? 2014-11-18T21:35:32Z stassats: sure 2014-11-18T21:35:37Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T21:35:37Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T21:35:39Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T21:36:37Z a20141118 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:37:20Z rhollor: I recant. I was under the impression, initially, that quickslip was a CL implementation so I didn't want to do that because sceptical about switching implmentators 2014-11-18T21:37:46Z Xach: quicklisp is a CL program that works in most CL implementations. 2014-11-18T21:38:18Z stassats: but does it work on Genera? 2014-11-18T21:38:24Z Xach: no 2014-11-18T21:38:52Z Xach: i like that it's future-common-lisp there 2014-11-18T21:39:17Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T21:40:06Z dim: hehe 2014-11-18T21:40:36Z dim: what's the license of Open Genera? is it possible for someone to consider modernizing it? 2014-11-18T21:40:51Z duggiefresh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T21:40:54Z duggiefr_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:41:13Z stassats: doesn't seem to be like a good idea 2014-11-18T21:41:44Z dim: well that won't prevent someone from doing it ;-) 2014-11-18T21:41:54Z duggiefr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T21:43:03Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:44:37Z jasom: yeah, if I only wrote code that seemed to be like a good idea, I'd have hardly any code written to date. 2014-11-18T21:45:06Z Shinmera: Well, performance is abysmal right now, but I got the tools and brush systems working. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.18-22:44:42.png 2014-11-18T21:45:37Z billstclair quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-11-18T21:45:54Z jasom: Shinmera: you're still working on parasol? 2014-11-18T21:46:09Z Shinmera: I started work on the rewrite. 2014-11-18T21:46:30Z minion joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:46:31Z specbot joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:46:44Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T21:46:53Z stassats: why is it only supported on CCL? 2014-11-18T21:46:57Z Shinmera: Been at it roughly.. a week now. 2014-11-18T21:47:44Z Shinmera: stassats: That's not definite yet really, but I've had really weird rendering issues when using CL threads to do my drawing operations in, so I'll be looking into using QThreads, which only work on CCL. SBCL crashes immediately. 2014-11-18T21:47:56Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:48:18Z stassats: Shinmera: http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#known-issues 2014-11-18T21:49:02Z Shinmera: I thought I built SBCL with fancy... or does that not include those options? 2014-11-18T21:49:12Z stassats: does not 2014-11-18T21:49:15Z Shinmera: Ah, alright then. 2014-11-18T21:49:21Z Shinmera: I'll try that then! 2014-11-18T21:49:28Z stassats: they are expirementalish 2014-11-18T21:49:37Z Shinmera: Well, I'll be happy to provide feedback. 2014-11-18T21:49:50Z stassats: well, they usually just work 2014-11-18T21:50:10Z stassats: although, there's nothing stopping from making callbacks work on the usual configuration 2014-11-18T21:50:17Z stassats: i shall look into it some time 2014-11-18T21:50:32Z Shinmera: It just seems to segfault as soon as it calls back into lisp. 2014-11-18T21:51:35Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T21:52:15Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-18T21:52:50Z stassats: and maybe there's a better way than starting a new thread for each callback 2014-11-18T21:53:28Z stassats: if that's what we do, i don't remember now 2014-11-18T21:54:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-18T21:57:38Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-18T21:59:27Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:00:22Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:00:38Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:01:49Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T22:01:57Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:03:33Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:03:38Z drmeister: Is it an error if the compiler hits code that references a special variable that hasn't been defined as special? 2014-11-18T22:04:49Z drmeister: I think my compiler was too permissive and just assumed if the variable had never been seen that it was special. Cleavir is being more strict. 2014-11-18T22:05:32Z nyef: It is at the very least undefined behavior, IIRC. It's probably an error. 2014-11-18T22:06:03Z LoicLisp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T22:06:07Z Shinmera: SBCL just emits a warning. 2014-11-18T22:06:19Z Shinmera: when you use undefined variables that is 2014-11-18T22:06:44Z drmeister: It's ok that it be an error. 2014-11-18T22:07:02Z nyef: clhs 3.1.2.1.1 2014-11-18T22:07:03Z specbot: Symbols as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaa.htm 2014-11-18T22:07:32Z drewc: drmeister: I think the issue is that SETQ allows it even if not declared, and some lisp specialize it when an undeclared variable is setq'd IIRC 2014-11-18T22:08:00Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T22:08:23Z drewc: but, is that a reference? no... not really. I think. 2014-11-18T22:08:33Z nyef: It defines that a form that is a symbol is one of three cases, then defines the circumstances under which each case holds. The remaining (unspecified) case is the one you've run into, and one of the more-clever interpretations is that such a symbol is not in fact a form. 2014-11-18T22:09:38Z nyef: drewc: No, SETQ doesn't actually allow it, the symbol passed as a variable to setq must already be a variable. 2014-11-18T22:10:09Z nyef: The EXAMPLEs for SETQ say that it's legit, but examples aren't normative. 2014-11-18T22:11:02Z drewc: ah fair enough, I guess it does come back to 3.1.2.1.1 2014-11-18T22:11:18Z drmeister: Oh cool, beach provided a restart to consider it special - proceeding. 2014-11-18T22:11:25Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:12:37Z nyef: ... because calling it "special" is supposed to keep its feelings from being hurt? I mean, is a historically-supported behavior that should be catered to in such a generic framework? Well done, beach! 2014-11-18T22:13:32Z pgomes left #lisp 2014-11-18T22:13:33Z octophore_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:14:53Z octophore-- joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:16:46Z octophore quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:17:02Z drmeister: Now I'm making some headway. I got through my first source file with cleavir. The failures are expected and make sense. 70 more to go. 2014-11-18T22:17:37Z octophore_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:18:04Z drmeister: Then generate hir and then llvm-ir. Easy peasy. 2014-11-18T22:18:13Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:19:24Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:19:38Z octophore_ joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:20:12Z billstclair quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-11-18T22:20:30Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-18T22:20:55Z Baggers: On the lisp subreddit how do I submit a link that would be good for the links collection on the right of the page ? 2014-11-18T22:21:39Z octophore-- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:22:44Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:22:48Z octophore quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:22:49Z Baggers quit (Excess Flood) 2014-11-18T22:23:10Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:24:32Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-18T22:25:37Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:25:37Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T22:25:37Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:25:52Z rhollor: Xach: so, I've installed quicklisp, ran the command, and followed the steps. It says that slime-helper is installed. Now what 2014-11-18T22:26:10Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:26:36Z rhollor left #lisp 2014-11-18T22:26:42Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:28:11Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:28:20Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:28:46Z Baggers: rhollor: If you are looking for a guide on setting up emacs/lisp&slime this may help with a few things http://youtu.be/VnWVu8VVDbI 2014-11-18T22:29:05Z rhollor: Baggers: thanks 2014-11-18T22:29:07Z Baggers: sorry if you have it in hand already :) 2014-11-18T22:31:47Z rhollor: swiggity swooty 2014-11-18T22:32:08Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:32:12Z bsima quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-18T22:32:14Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:32:33Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:32:54Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:33:02Z rhollor: can you get banned from a channel here? 2014-11-18T22:33:04Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T22:33:16Z stassats: sure 2014-11-18T22:33:29Z rhollor: who runs it? 2014-11-18T22:33:36Z stassats: the cabal 2014-11-18T22:34:05Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:34:19Z rhollor: is there something?like a seperate OP per channel or 2014-11-18T22:35:00Z Baggers: rhollor: 'Swiggity swooty' ... is that good? 2014-11-18T22:35:02Z Baggers: hehe 2014-11-18T22:35:25Z francogrex: rhollor: https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml 2014-11-18T22:36:09Z rhollor: Baggers: that was a test. I was looking at the log files and so I wanted to see it loaded 2014-11-18T22:36:18Z Baggers: ah :) 2014-11-18T22:36:55Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T22:36:56Z lieven joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:41:15Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:41:34Z jumblerg quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-18T22:42:25Z enitiz joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:48:12Z octophore_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T22:49:31Z Xach: rhollor: in emacs, use M-x slime 2014-11-18T22:50:28Z a20141118 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-11-18T22:50:36Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-18T22:50:48Z rhollor quit (Quit: rhollor) 2014-11-18T22:52:33Z octophore joined #lisp 2014-11-18T22:57:43Z rhollor joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:02:26Z rhollor quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:04:10Z _death joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:07:31Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:11:12Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:11:22Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:12:17Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:12:23Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:12:29Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:13:50Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T23:13:52Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:14:29Z RedEight joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:15:17Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:15:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:16:41Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-18T23:16:50Z RedEight joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:17:02Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:17:32Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-18T23:17:34Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:17:52Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:19:58Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:20:56Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:22:18Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:23:55Z msmith1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:24:20Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:25:51Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:25:51Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:26:58Z msmith1 joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:27:09Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-11-18T23:28:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:28:45Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:28:54Z bsima quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-18T23:30:56Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:31:12Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:32:11Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:32:50Z milosn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T23:32:52Z didi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:33:05Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:34:21Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:35:00Z didi: How can I have make an setf CLOS method? I have (defmethod foo ((bar baz)) ...) and now I want to (setf (foo baz-instance) ...). (defmethod (setf foo) ((bar baz) new-value) ...) doesn't seem to be the way. 2014-11-18T23:35:13Z stassats: of course it doesn't 2014-11-18T23:35:19Z stassats: (defmethod (setf foo) (new-value (bar baz)) ...) 2014-11-18T23:35:25Z didi: Boinc. 2014-11-18T23:35:52Z stassats: how did you expect it to work with &rest? 2014-11-18T23:36:12Z didi: stassats: I didn't know it was even a possibility? 2014-11-18T23:36:21Z stassats: did you ever call AREF? 2014-11-18T23:36:30Z didi: I don't think so. 2014-11-18T23:36:42Z stassats: really? 2014-11-18T23:36:53Z didi: Oh, you mean, like ever ever? I do. 2014-11-18T23:37:15Z didi: Why? 2014-11-18T23:37:31Z stassats: so, how did you expect (setf (aref array 1 2 3) x) to work if the value was at the last place? 2014-11-18T23:37:54Z didi: stassats: I didn't even think about it. 2014-11-18T23:38:02Z stassats: you should! 2014-11-18T23:38:06Z didi nods 2014-11-18T23:38:29Z didi: Now I need to make my running image forget my method declaration. 2014-11-18T23:38:50Z stassats: you don't 2014-11-18T23:38:59Z didi: Oooh. Really? 2014-11-18T23:39:42Z stassats: ok, you may want to 2014-11-18T23:39:58Z didi: ;-) 2014-11-18T23:40:28Z didi: I usually use SLIME's inspect, but I am not finding the setf one. 2014-11-18T23:41:03Z stassats: this will be called in an unlikely case, unless you're planning to keep that image running, you can forget about it 2014-11-18T23:43:18Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:45:29Z lifenoodles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:49:39Z henesy joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:50:46Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-11-18T23:51:28Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:51:34Z lifenoodles joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:51:38Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:51:39Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-18T23:53:24Z fragamus quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-18T23:53:26Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:54:41Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:54:41Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2014-11-18T23:54:41Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:55:03Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:55:53Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:56:22Z octophore quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-18T23:57:01Z didi joined #lisp 2014-11-18T23:57:34Z didi: stassats: Thank you for the `aref' example. I won't forget the order of the parameters not (I hope). 2014-11-18T23:57:40Z didi: s/not/now 2014-11-18T23:58:11Z stassats: and that's also why you can't write (aref 1 2 3 array) 2014-11-18T23:59:37Z fragamus joined #lisp