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2014-11-17T04:00:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-17T04:00:20Z drmeister: Hello beach.
2014-11-17T04:00:59Z drmeister: I set up code to ram all of the ECL/Clasp source code through Cleavir.
2014-11-17T04:01:07Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-11-17T04:01:33Z drmeister: To see if I could generate ASTs for every form.
2014-11-17T04:01:52Z cyan is now known as cy
2014-11-17T04:01:52Z beach: drmeister: That's ambitious.
2014-11-17T04:02:04Z beach: But a great test of course.
2014-11-17T04:02:38Z beach: And it runs natively, right?
2014-11-17T04:03:30Z drmeister: I don't understand, what is it that runs natively?  The code is all compiled by Clasp's compiler.
2014-11-17T04:03:47Z drmeister: Did I answer the question?
2014-11-17T04:03:54Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-17T04:04:02Z beach: So it will be a great test of Clasp as well.
2014-11-17T04:04:36Z drmeister: Right, Clasp running Cleavir compiling Clasp.  It's like the movie Inception - but it makes sense.
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2014-11-17T04:05:53Z drmeister: I sent you several emails - if it's too much tell me and I'll try and slow down.
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2014-11-17T04:06:10Z beach: Oh, just saw them now.
2014-11-17T04:06:21Z beach: It will take some time to process.
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2014-11-17T04:06:31Z drmeister: No problem.  I'm going to bed soon.
2014-11-17T04:07:12Z beach: ... and I'm not awake yet.
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2014-11-17T04:07:53Z beach: I'm having my coffee but it takes a while to kick in.
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2014-11-17T04:30:58Z drmeister: beach:  No problem.  I'm working on something else at the moment.
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2014-11-17T04:34:27Z beach: drmeister: I looked at the form you posted: (defun codegen ...)
2014-11-17T04:35:12Z beach: I saw that generate-ast does not handle undefined symbols very well.  I should copy the code I did for minimal compilation that signals an error and provides restarts.
2014-11-17T04:37:09Z drmeister: I thought it might be something to do with generating ASTs on source code out of context.
2014-11-17T04:37:36Z drmeister: Wouldn't it be better to accumulate compilation errors and warnings?
2014-11-17T04:37:37Z beach: I don't know yet.  The reason it failed here is that I don't have the same environment as you do.
2014-11-17T04:38:24Z beach: Let me process your email messages and I'll let you know how to proceed.
2014-11-17T04:38:37Z drmeister: That is a form snipped out of my source code.  That's why I started setting up to compile everything in the proper order.
2014-11-17T04:38:47Z beach: Yeah, you are right.
2014-11-17T04:39:04Z drmeister: I thought without the context it might run into trouble.
2014-11-17T04:39:15Z beach: Indeed.
2014-11-17T04:39:46Z drmeister: A problem that I ran into when I tried to compile from the beginning is that Cleavir doesn't like to generate ASTs for single SETQ forms like: (setq core:*echo-repl-tpl-read* nil)
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2014-11-17T04:40:09Z drmeister: Where core:*echo-repl-tpl-read* is a global/special.
2014-11-17T04:40:23Z drmeister: Here's the error I get:
2014-11-17T04:40:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/D8mDqsdd
2014-11-17T04:41:24Z drmeister: Whoops - forgot to generate a backtrace and print the environment in the lowest Cleavir function:
2014-11-17T04:41:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/R1XRM1AF
2014-11-17T04:42:25Z beach: I don't recognize that at all.
2014-11-17T04:43:15Z beach: Perhaps you can interpret the information for me?
2014-11-17T04:43:24Z drmeister: Sure - hang on.
2014-11-17T04:44:41Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/18tF18xf
2014-11-17T04:44:46Z drmeister: Ugh
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2014-11-17T04:44:53Z drmeister: In convert-special.lisp on line 438 is a LET statement:
2014-11-17T04:45:30Z drmeister: (let* ((info (cleavir-env:variable-info env var)) (identity (cleavir-env:identity info))) ...
2014-11-17T04:45:49Z beach: OK, that looks fishy.
2014-11-17T04:45:57Z beach: I'll look into it.
2014-11-17T04:46:04Z drmeister: info is being bound to NIL and so the call (cleavir-env:identity info) is failing.
2014-11-17T04:46:31Z drmeister: Ooops.  I think that's my bad.   The env is the global environment.
2014-11-17T04:46:56Z beach: I think this is a case where I should signal an error and provide a restart.
2014-11-17T04:47:05Z beach: Currently, it just fails.
2014-11-17T04:47:34Z beach: It happens when the environment returns NIL for some query.
2014-11-17T04:47:55Z drmeister: Yeah, "env" is bound to the bogus clasp global environment.   I'm returning NIL from (cleavir-env:variable-info env var).  var is CORE::*ECHO-REPL-TPL-READ*
2014-11-17T04:48:33Z beach: Right, so it is not considered special in the environment, and Cleavir should signal an error that you can then capture and invoke a restart.
2014-11-17T04:48:52Z beach: But I don't do that yet in GENERATE-AST.  I should do that.
2014-11-17T04:49:21Z beach: Without it, things are impossible to debug.
2014-11-17T04:49:38Z beach: So let me work on that today, and let you run your tests again after that.
2014-11-17T04:49:42Z beach: How does that sound?
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2014-11-17T04:50:23Z drmeister: Sure,  no problem.   I don't understand why cleavir-env:variable-info is returning NIL.  Investigating.
2014-11-17T04:50:34Z beach: I can't answer that :)
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2014-11-17T04:51:32Z beach: I need to vanish for half an hour or so.  We can continue later or after you had some sleep.
2014-11-17T04:51:49Z drmeister: Hmm, when I call it from the debugger it's returning:   a CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:SPECIAL-VARIABLE-INFO#<0x114bd66a8>   as it should.
2014-11-17T04:52:07Z beach: oops!
2014-11-17T04:52:15Z drmeister: I'll be indisposed until Wednesday - so take your time.
2014-11-17T04:52:22Z beach: OK.
2014-11-17T04:52:25Z beach: Good.
2014-11-17T04:53:10Z drmeister: Wait - no, I interpreted the error incorrectly... working.
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2014-11-17T04:53:54Z drmeister: Gah, I have to learn to read my own freakin error messages properly.
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2014-11-17T04:55:14Z drmeister: It's complaining that there is no method cleavir-env:identity specialized to #S(#<COMMON-LISP:STANDARD-CLASS CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:SPECIAL-VARIABLE-INFO
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2014-11-17T05:01:50Z drmeister: beach: What's REALLY happening in this case is in convert-special.lisp, on line 438 the let statement:  (let* ((info (cleavir-env:variable-info env var)) (identity (cleavir-env:identity info))) ...
2014-11-17T05:02:23Z drmeister: is calling (cleavir-env:identity info) where info is an instance of #S(#<COMMON-LISP:STANDARD-CLASS CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:SPECIAL-VARIABLE-INFO
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2014-11-17T05:03:02Z drmeister: cleavir-environment:special-variable-info instances don't have an "cleavir-env:identity" reader.
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2014-11-17T05:04:37Z drmeister: beach:  From what I read lexical variables have "identity" but special variables do not.
2014-11-17T05:05:35Z drmeister: Maybe it needs a (defmethod cleavir-env:identity ((obj t)) nil) ?
2014-11-17T05:07:55Z Zhivago: Special variables have the identity of their naming symbol.
2014-11-17T05:08:13Z drmeister: Oh - that's even better.
2014-11-17T05:08:14Z Zhivago: i.e., you can use symbol-value to access the special variable binding.
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2014-11-17T05:08:54Z Zhivago: You might say that lexical variables lack a first class identity, but specials have one.
2014-11-17T05:09:19Z drmeister: (defmethod cleavir-env:identity ((info t)) (name info))
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2014-11-17T05:11:42Z drmeister: I may not know what I'm doing half the time, but my code does.
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2014-11-17T05:15:45Z drmeister: Ok, that generates the AST but it fails to render it because graphviz-drawing.lisp:28 is trying to invoke (children ast)  where "ast" is bound to core::*echo-repl-tpl-read*.      It probably wants an INFO object here.   Maybe (defmethod cleavir-env:identity ((info t)) info) is more appropriate.  I'll try that.
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2014-11-17T05:15:53Z drmeister: Trial and error programming - what fun.
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2014-11-17T05:19:09Z drmeister: Nope - that's not what identity should return either.  It needs to be an AST node.
2014-11-17T05:20:32Z drmeister: I think this is a beach question.
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2014-11-17T05:25:57Z drmeister: I'm guessing that there is an AST node associated with that symbol that I need to lookup or create if it doesn't exist.
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2014-11-17T05:29:57Z drmeister: Hmmm, maybe not.  I see constant-ast nodes being made but I don't see them being memoized.
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2014-11-17T05:30:27Z beach: Zhivago is right, the name IS the identity of a special variable.
2014-11-17T05:31:57Z beach: If it calls cleavir-env:identity on a special, that's a bug in Cleavir.
2014-11-17T05:32:55Z drmeister: It is calling cleavir-env:identity on a special.  convert-special.lisp line 438 and 439.
2014-11-17T05:33:09Z beach: OK, hold on...
2014-11-17T05:34:42Z beach: It looks that way.  I'll address the problem today.
2014-11-17T05:36:14Z beach: drmeister: For lexical variables and such, I intended to set things up so that the implementation can use any object as the identity.
2014-11-17T05:36:28Z drmeister: Great - I'll look forward to it.   I'm heading to bed.  I'm at the tail end of a head cold and when I tilt my head to the right the world starts spinning and I get nauseous. When I tilt it to the left the world stops spinning. It's probably pressure on my inner ear.  It's fascinating but I should probably get some sleep and let it heal.
2014-11-17T05:36:48Z beach: yeah, sounds bad.
2014-11-17T05:37:06Z drmeister: It's kind of cool.
2014-11-17T05:37:41Z drmeister: It's like my own personal tilt-a-whirl.
2014-11-17T05:38:12Z beach doesn't know what a tilt-a-whirl is.  Must be something Murkin.
2014-11-17T05:39:19Z drmeister: http://fineartamerica.com/featured/tilt-o-whirl-walt-jackson.html
2014-11-17T05:39:24Z Bike: it's a ride at carnivals where you spin a lot.
2014-11-17T05:39:54Z beach: Thanks.
2014-11-17T05:40:00Z Bike: huh, i wouldn't call that one a tilt a whirl.
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2014-11-17T06:52:16Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-11-17T07:24:02Z nydel: how to set a custom function to set the repl's prompt in sbcl using slime-mode for emacs?
2014-11-17T07:24:33Z nydel: it appears that the way i've done it in pure sbcl doesn't have an effect in slime.
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2014-11-17T07:49:08Z lavokad: hi, i've found this post http://damienkatz.net/2008/04/lisp_as_blub.html
2014-11-17T07:49:46Z lavokad: it is old, but is it still true in common lisp implementations?
2014-11-17T07:51:04Z Shinmera: "garbage collection will be the end of us all"
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2014-11-17T07:51:25Z lavokad: :)
2014-11-17T07:55:59Z |3b|: "long lived processes" are bad, because they have problems you c an only solve by restarting
2014-11-17T07:56:16Z |3b|: as opposed to short-lived processes that you have to restart even when there aren't problems?
2014-11-17T07:57:47Z Shinmera: I don't know close to enough about Erlang to bash that post, but it sounds silly to me.
2014-11-17T07:57:47Z |3b| agrees with it that erlang's runtime is probably nicer than the available CL runtimes for some things though
2014-11-17T07:58:46Z |3b|: for the things i do, i'd rather have the lisp language even if that means i have a worse runtime and have to restart once in a while
2014-11-17T07:59:10Z Shinmera: Doesn't pjb have a CL server with years of uptime?
2014-11-17T07:59:17Z |3b|: lots of people do
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2014-11-17T07:59:29Z |3b|: lots of people have CL servers that need restarted regularly too
2014-11-17T08:00:13Z Shinmera: Imo you should worry much more about your own code polluting the runtime than the runtime itself being bad.
2014-11-17T08:00:31Z |3b|: not so much 'bad' as just different design tradeoffs
2014-11-17T08:00:34Z Shinmera: So that blog seems analogous to a "why no pointers??" thing to me in a way.
2014-11-17T08:01:04Z |3b|: erlang is designed for 99.9999etc % uptime, so lots of features that make that easier at the expense of possibly being more annoying to use
2014-11-17T08:01:39Z |3b|: CL and its implementations tend to not have been 'designed' for anything specific, so don't
2014-11-17T08:01:39Z Shinmera: Right.
2014-11-17T08:01:41Z Zhivago: Why no pointers boils down to why no unbounded array accesses.
2014-11-17T08:02:04Z Zhivago: The problems with pointer aren't really problems with pointers.
2014-11-17T08:02:28Z Zhivago: They're either 'problems with shared memory' or 'problems with unchecked array overflow'.
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2014-11-17T08:07:34Z Zhivago: I'd worry more about restarting irregularly -- unexpected failures happen.
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2014-11-17T08:08:54Z schjetne: That reminds me, reading beach's Lisp OS specifications, there needs to be some way of unloading code. Is there a way to do that in the standard, or is it implementation specific?
2014-11-17T08:09:42Z schjetne: So far I haven't done an application that can't stand being restarted once in a while
2014-11-17T08:09:50Z Bike: what, like fmakunbound?
2014-11-17T08:09:53Z |3b|: nothing in the standard, just the implied existence of GC
2014-11-17T08:10:17Z |3b|: and the various ways of no longer referring to code
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2014-11-17T08:10:55Z Zhivago: Of course, my answer would be to use processes.
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2014-11-17T08:14:49Z schjetne: I guess part of the attraction is to not have to deal with any RPC, everything is just a funcall away.
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2014-11-17T08:27:43Z schjetne: On the other hand, it might not actually make sense to unload code. It will just be swapped to disk when not in use.
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2014-11-17T08:28:57Z schjetne: I guess that's simply how executable code is stored on disk when you have orthogonal persistance. save-lisp-and-die becomes irrelevant.
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2014-11-17T08:31:44Z Shinmera: You'll still need a mechanism to delete applications
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2014-11-17T08:34:02Z schjetne: That's true, eventually you'd want to uninstall something. Perhaps a feature to add to ASDF?
2014-11-17T08:34:45Z Shinmera: What I mean is that, if at the point of the delete request the application's functions are still "available" they need to be deleted somehow, so a function delete / unload call is necessary.
2014-11-17T08:37:36Z schjetne: Maybe have some kind of GC that detects if the source code is still available, and if it isn't, delete the corresponding functions and variables?
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2014-11-17T08:38:54Z Zhivago: Or you could just have a file-system and processes, and the problem would go away.
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2014-11-17T08:40:04Z Zhivago: If you need to be able to rebuild the process from the ground up (e.g., when moving between machines), then you need support for that, regardless.
2014-11-17T08:40:28Z Zhivago: If you need support for that, then there's no reason to rely on orthogonal persistence, except to save time in restarts.
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2014-11-17T08:40:53Z Zhivago: If restart time drops below the acceptable threshold, there's no point in orthogonal persistence.
2014-11-17T08:41:10Z Zhivago: Which is generally the case for modern systems, which is why no-one cares about it anymore.
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2014-11-17T08:46:24Z schjetne: The document starts out talking about all the problems with file systems and processes, so having file systems and processes would defeat the purpose of the whole thing.
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2014-11-17T08:47:09Z H4ns: schjetne: are you sure that you're not replacing one set of problems with another set of problems?
2014-11-17T08:47:42Z schjetne: I'm not sure of anything, I just find the proposal fascinating
2014-11-17T08:47:55Z schjetne: For reference: https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS
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2014-11-17T08:53:38Z H4ns: i'm not meaning to discourage anyone.  i'm just not as sure as i used to be that an orthogonally persistent lisp system is really solving problems.  but maybe problem solving would not be the real point of it anyway.
2014-11-17T08:54:03Z H4ns: judging from myself, it'll be more a question of taste and percieved beauty.
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2014-11-17T08:55:04Z schjetne: It would probably need a file system anyway, since the rest of the world will probably keep working with files for a long time
2014-11-17T08:55:36Z H4ns: adding a file system will put the system to its early death
2014-11-17T08:56:14Z H4ns: and the fact that common lisp specifies the file system as basically its only system interface makes me kind of sad :/
2014-11-17T08:56:14Z schjetne: Because of the difficulty of implementing one?
2014-11-17T08:57:13Z H4ns: no, because the file system is a powerful and well-known abstraction.  people will want to use it, and will not think about how they could get along - hopefully better - without files in the first place.
2014-11-17T08:58:02Z H4ns: i'm reminded of beos, which in the beginning had only a relational database and something like a file system implemented in terms of that database.
2014-11-17T08:58:14Z schjetne: The idea seems to be to piggyback on an existing Unix-like system, and I'm sure it's fairly easy to implement a notion of hierarchical structure on an object store.
2014-11-17T08:58:34Z H4ns: people are so attached to files, though, that they had to give up the idea and replaced the database by a file system, eventually.
2014-11-17T08:59:07Z H4ns: i'd be rather careful using terms like "fairly easy" in this context :)
2014-11-17T08:59:26Z Shinmera: H4ns: I'm not sure that the idea of the LispOS is to appeal to the mainstream..
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2014-11-17T08:59:27Z schjetne: Compared to something like Btrfs, I guess
2014-11-17T08:59:46Z Shinmera: So I don't know how far the point of 'people like hierarchical file systems' counts
2014-11-17T08:59:51Z schjetne: But all that has to be implemented somewhere else anyway
2014-11-17T09:00:14Z schjetne: Shinmera: yes, a lot of modern systems seem to be moving towards the object store model
2014-11-17T09:00:33Z H4ns: Shinmera: right.  if one confines themselves to research environment, it is easy to ignore the "real world" and do something that just makes sense.
2014-11-17T09:00:35Z schjetne: with the users searching rather than browsing for their data. Mobile systems, Mac OS X, GNOME come to mind
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2014-11-17T09:01:31Z Shinmera: H4ns: The proposals in the article are all very appealing conceptually, but I'm absolutely convinced they're all too "radical" to find any form of acceptance any time soon, if such a system was built in the first place.
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2014-11-17T09:02:18Z Shinmera: H4ns: So I'm fine with it remaining a "cool thing for research and experimentation"
2014-11-17T09:02:48Z H4ns: i'm fine with that, too, of course :)
2014-11-17T09:03:12Z zickzackv: Shinmera: my guess is that some of the radical abstraction could work on a mobile plattform. most users do not miss files on there phones
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2014-11-17T09:03:52Z schjetne: I started looking into it in the search for the ultimate development environment. I still think that's a good place to start, because that's something people can find useful even if they aren't interested in replacing Unix-like systems.
2014-11-17T09:04:06Z Shinmera: zickzackv: We're moving towards the "possible change" on the desktop too, albeit slowly. People are tending towards just typing into the search field much more now than before
2014-11-17T09:04:17Z Shinmera: Probably mostly because search is beginning to work, finally.
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2014-11-17T09:05:17Z p_l: and because it's search, not an object store requiring exotic storage
2014-11-17T09:05:33Z schjetne: That reminds me, now I have to try to find the time to write a CL library for talking to Elasticsearch
2014-11-17T09:06:07Z p_l: schjetne: drakma for starters, i guess?
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2014-11-17T09:06:36Z schjetne: Yeah, I can probably even re-use the code I wrote for interfacing with ArangoDB
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2014-11-17T09:08:12Z schjetne: All this jumping back and forth across processes, networks and data formats feels like trying to fit a Klein shaped peg through a single point hole.
2014-11-17T09:08:31Z schjetne: It would be nice if everything was in Lisp
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2014-11-17T09:09:32Z schjetne: Then all I'd have to do was call a function
2014-11-17T09:10:04Z p_l: and then you'd be fucked over by distributed programming fallacies
2014-11-17T09:10:09Z ggole: That's what RPC was supposed to do. Turns out it sucks.
2014-11-17T09:10:48Z schjetne: Yes, I was looking at some RPC options to talk to a web front-end, none of them seemed to work quite right
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2014-11-17T09:12:22Z schjetne: My dislike of JSON has been growing steadily.
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2014-11-17T09:13:59Z schjetne: Someone has started implementing BERT-RPC for CL, I wanted to help finish it, but I ran out of time and had to make a REST API instead.
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2014-11-17T09:14:39Z schjetne: It uses Erlang data types, they are a lot richer than those of JavaScript
2014-11-17T09:14:51Z p_l: schjetne: i've been perversely pushing ASN.1 recently xD
2014-11-17T09:16:31Z schjetne: Maybe I should have gone with XML-RPC, it seemed like it had reasonable support both in CL and in the browser
2014-11-17T09:16:41Z schjetne: But then I'd have to endure the ridicule from the Web 2.0 weenies
2014-11-17T09:17:39Z p_l: schjetne: then one day you'd find out that all the worst parts of SOAP are derived from it's XML-RPC heritage
2014-11-17T09:19:16Z schjetne: I'd like to take time off work and finish BERT-RPC
2014-11-17T09:19:22Z schjetne: How about that, take time off work to do more work
2014-11-17T09:19:46Z p_l: hehe
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2014-11-17T09:20:33Z schjetne: Reminds me of an anecdote I heard from the Amish community
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2014-11-17T09:20:49Z p_l: btw, regarding dropping "established common" stuff like json over http... i went and decided to start looking into getting rid of ethernet xD
2014-11-17T09:21:08Z schjetne: A tourist asked them what they do for fun. They work for fun. Raising barns is awesome.
2014-11-17T09:22:06Z schjetne: p_l: I haven't gotten that far down the protocol stack yet, but I guess it's only a matter of time
2014-11-17T09:22:17Z schjetne: What was the problem?
2014-11-17T09:23:23Z p_l: ethernet being fscking expensive at higher speeds coupled with the mess that is trying to make it lossless for various reasons
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2014-11-17T09:23:54Z schjetne: p_l: setting up a SAN?
2014-11-17T09:24:29Z p_l: schjetne: experimenting with ideas for pure-infiniband
2014-11-17T09:24:39Z p_l: datacenter
2014-11-17T09:25:53Z p_l: i.e. there is only one system area network physically present, and al traffic (SRP for storage, IP for connectivity, SDP, rdma etc) goes over it
2014-11-17T09:27:50Z p_l: the idea is to get rid of crazy IP-in-Ethernet-in-MPLS-in-GRE-in-IP-in-Ethernet that actually happens nowadays
2014-11-17T09:28:19Z p_l: (this is a real protocol stack)
2014-11-17T09:28:50Z schjetne: I'm reading the wiki page
2014-11-17T09:29:17Z schjetne: Seems like the closest you can get to wiring all your computers' PCI buses together
2014-11-17T09:30:13Z p_l: schjetne: it originated from a computer's internal bus, iirc
2014-11-17T09:30:37Z schjetne: Perhaps you can revive *Lisp from the Connection Machines while you're at it ;)
2014-11-17T09:30:56Z p_l: except it can be made into network the size from US East coast to West Coast xD
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2014-11-17T09:33:51Z |3b|: *lisp sounds more like GPU than network level parallel
2014-11-17T09:34:32Z p_l: some stuff from *lisp might be implementable on radeons
2014-11-17T09:34:59Z |3b|: from what i remember, should be able to do all of it on any recent GPU
2014-11-17T09:35:01Z p_l: adding RDMA bits couldmake it even more interedting, though
2014-11-17T09:35:25Z |3b|: though programming model isn't an exact fit
2014-11-17T09:35:28Z p_l: |3b|: afaik radeon shader ISA is actually documented
2014-11-17T09:35:49Z |3b|: yeah, i meant compiling to opencl/opengl compute/cuda
2014-11-17T09:36:09Z p_l: not just opencl/cuda libs (both having their own language)
2014-11-17T09:36:24Z p_l: not sure about dx compute
2014-11-17T09:36:59Z schjetne: I started out reading the manual for *Lisp, but then work work got in the way, so I had to put play work aside
2014-11-17T09:38:04Z |3b| avoids knowing anything about dx, but has been playing with gl compute recently
2014-11-17T09:39:04Z p_l: haven't heard of gl compute
2014-11-17T09:39:51Z p_l: seems wierd that they would compete eith themselves (same body for opengl and opencl), or is it more in vein of coupling both?
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2014-11-17T09:39:59Z |3b|: added in 4.3 i think, sort of similar to simplified opencl, but with better GL interop
2014-11-17T09:40:39Z |3b|: opencl (at least theoretically) supports random things like FPGA, CPU, lots of devices
2014-11-17T09:40:52Z |3b|: opengl just focuses on single GPU
2014-11-17T09:41:15Z p_l: isn't there opengl interop in later opencl versions?
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2014-11-17T09:41:34Z |3b|: i think it was available as an extension in first version, but i don't think it was ever very good
2014-11-17T09:41:50Z |3b|: like needing to stall both APIs when switching between them
2014-11-17T09:42:01Z schjetne: There's also the Parallella board: http://www.parallella.org/
2014-11-17T09:42:10Z |3b|: while GL compute can use all the GL synchornization stuff directly
2014-11-17T09:42:44Z |3b|: also has all the GL data types since it is GL, without worrying about translating
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2014-11-17T09:47:57Z |3b|: then there is the issue of nvidia supporting gl compute and not supporting opencl past 1.1 :/
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2014-11-17T09:49:13Z p_l: i thought they supported 1.1 plus in newer hw?
2014-11-17T09:50:50Z |3b|: the hardware could support it, but haven't seen any 1.2+ drivers anywhere
2014-11-17T09:51:51Z moore33: I think of OpenCL as targeted as doing random computations on the GPU, whereas OpenGL compute is more for generating data that will be consumed by the rest of the OpenGL pipeline more-or-less immediately.
2014-11-17T09:52:52Z |3b|: GL compute is good for 'random computation' too, if you are using same data for rendering
2014-11-17T09:54:33Z |3b|: opencl is probably easier to scale to multiple devices, use without a display, etc
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2014-11-17T11:55:14Z sol__: i'm looking for an example code in lisp that handles binary structures...
2014-11-17T11:55:36Z sol__: like constructing and reading networks packets
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2014-11-17T11:57:04Z eudoxia: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc#example
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2014-11-17T13:55:19Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-11-17T14:02:07Z drmeister: Morning nyef
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2014-11-17T15:13:48Z drmeister: A CONDITION is like a class - right?  It has slots.  Is there a standard way to print a CONDITION that provides a nice report of the condition?   (print-object xxx t) is just telling me what type of condition it is and not printing any of the details.  Maybe this condition doesn't have a :report set up?
2014-11-17T15:14:31Z stassats: for print-object to show something, you have to define it
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2014-11-17T15:15:10Z drmeister: Ok, no report is defined for this condition.
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2014-11-17T15:15:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nmHoyIhd
2014-11-17T15:16:33Z stassats: that doesn't show that it's not defined
2014-11-17T15:16:54Z drmeister: So if this condition is thrown and the debugger is activated I shouldn't expect it to print the %name unless I provide a :report option to define-condition.
2014-11-17T15:17:13Z stassats: unless you define a method for print-object
2014-11-17T15:17:43Z drmeister: Oh - you mean the report can be defined some other way.  As in (defmethod print-object ((x no-function-info) stream) ...)
2014-11-17T15:19:04Z drmeister: I see - using emacs "find-grep" I don't see any defmethods for print-object specialized to NO-FUNCTION-INFO.
2014-11-17T15:19:32Z stassats: why find-grep and not rgrep?
2014-11-17T15:19:50Z drmeister: I thought the lack of detail was due to my debugger not doing something properly.
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2014-11-17T15:20:52Z drmeister: rgrep - hmmm.   Looks nice - I'll use that.
2014-11-17T15:21:30Z stassats: it's the same thing, but easier to enter parameters
2014-11-17T15:22:03Z drmeister: This thing in Common Lisp of being able to put DEFMETHOD wherever you want and specialized to whatever you want is really, really useful.  I can use it to enhance other peoples code.
2014-11-17T15:23:19Z Xach: but paul graham says it's a structured way to write elephantine spaghetti code :(
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2014-11-17T15:23:45Z Shinmera: Whatever will we do now
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2014-11-17T15:27:12Z drmeister: Damnit!  There's got to be at least one high-level, super powerful in the right hands, and dangerous in the wrong hands programming language.  Common Lisp is it and that's why I'm here.
2014-11-17T15:27:49Z Xach: drmeister: are you going to the next big CL conference?
2014-11-17T15:28:06Z drmeister: I should.
2014-11-17T15:28:19Z Xach: you should!
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2014-11-17T15:28:24Z Xach: see you in london in april!
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2014-11-17T15:29:56Z dim: hell yes, when is the deadline to register to that one?
2014-11-17T15:30:06Z Xach: it hasn't started yet
2014-11-17T15:30:14Z dim: so I'm not late yet
2014-11-17T15:30:18Z dim: you're going to show up?
2014-11-17T15:30:29Z Xach: I would very much like to. I was quite bummed to miss ILC in montreal.
2014-11-17T15:30:50Z Shinmera: I wish I could go, but alas, university.
2014-11-17T15:31:25Z dim: I did ELS in Paris and it was a great event, I'm going to be there in London too! hope to meet with as many of you as possible ;-)
2014-11-17T15:31:47Z Xach: eclm is also lots of fun
2014-11-17T15:32:34Z dim: but it's not every year, right?
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2014-11-17T15:33:10Z dim: yeah
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2014-11-17T15:34:32Z Xach: right
2014-11-17T15:34:43Z schjetne: ooh, I have to try to make it to the ELS
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2014-11-17T15:52:37Z sol__: i'm looking for an example code (for learning purposes) in lisp that handles binary structures... like writing/reading network datagrams
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2014-11-17T15:53:16Z stassats: will reading mp3 files do?
2014-11-17T15:53:34Z stassats: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html
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2014-11-17T15:55:17Z nyef: ... Speaking of handling network datagrams, whatever happened to... "slitch", was it?
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2014-11-17T15:56:24Z Xach: It's on github and elsewhere
2014-11-17T15:57:21Z nyef: But was it ever completed sufficient to be useful as something other than an example?
2014-11-17T15:57:36Z Xach: I don't think so.
2014-11-17T15:57:45Z Xach: maybe within teclo :)
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2014-11-17T15:58:14Z nyef: Fair enough.
2014-11-17T15:58:50Z sol__: actually slitch is a very good example, the binary-types.lisp file is very well written (at least from a noob perspective)
2014-11-17T15:59:55Z sol__: and i'm looking at the mp3 example, looks helpful as well
2014-11-17T16:00:33Z sol__: thanks :)
2014-11-17T16:02:24Z stassats: time to write a memtester in lisp
2014-11-17T16:02:37Z stassats: something's wrong with my RAM after resuming from suspend
2014-11-17T16:03:14Z stassats: let's start with two identical vectors and comparing them
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2014-11-17T16:11:18Z Xach: in movitz?
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2014-11-17T16:11:41Z stassats: if movits could suspend and resume, that'd be fun
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2014-11-17T16:12:27Z stassats: but no, just in the userspace should be enough
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2014-11-17T16:14:52Z dlowe: I can't find a reference, but I remember reading that Steam does a simple RAM check (write x bytes, read x bytes) and something like 5% of machines fail it. They can then safely ignore crash reports from those machines.
2014-11-17T16:16:07Z stassats: memtest obviously doesn't fail, and all those tests are not really suited for suspend/resume
2014-11-17T16:16:20Z stassats: so, i have to concoct something simple
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2014-11-17T16:47:13Z hitecnologys: Evening, #lisp.
2014-11-17T16:48:00Z jasom: stassats: hash all text sections in RAM before and after suspend/resume?
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2014-11-17T16:52:04Z hitecnologys: If wanted to make MAKE-INSTANCE make instances of some class without using keywords as initargs but rather taking arguments in specific order (like (make-instance 'class :foo "foo" :bar "bar") => (make-instance 'class "foo" "bar")), what would I need to redefine? Even if I try writing my own INITIALIZE-INSTNACE, it still complains that "foo" is not a keyword. Or should I better evade such a way of abusing MOP?
2014-11-17T16:53:39Z stassats: can't do that
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2014-11-17T16:53:57Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-11-17T16:54:14Z Grue`: you need to use a function that is not make-instance
2014-11-17T16:54:15Z stassats: (make-instance 'class "foo") wouldn't work
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2014-11-17T16:54:49Z hitecnologys: Is writing a wrapper that would iterate over slots and then pass correct initargs list to MAKE-INSTANCE an appropriate solution?
2014-11-17T16:55:04Z Grue`: yes
2014-11-17T16:55:12Z Krystof: except that it seems like a bit of a weird thing to want to do
2014-11-17T16:55:17Z jasom: hitecnologys: yes.  Typically it will be called make-foo (where foo is your class)
2014-11-17T16:55:19Z stassats: you don't have to iterate
2014-11-17T16:55:28Z jasom: Krystof: well not that weird, defstruct has that feature built in
2014-11-17T16:55:33Z stassats: (defun make-class (&optional a b c d e f))
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2014-11-17T16:55:54Z Krystof: jasom: defstruct also doesn't have any dynamicity
2014-11-17T16:56:12Z hitecnologys: Krystof: indeed it does. I'm currently exploring different ways of solving my problem.
2014-11-17T16:56:29Z Grue`: i don't think it's unusual at all to write constructors like that
2014-11-17T16:56:55Z Grue`: though only on per-class basis
2014-11-17T16:57:10Z Krystof: I think to write a _specific_ constructor like that might not be weird, though it can be deeply annoying because it basically doesn't allow subclassing by third-parties
2014-11-17T16:57:18Z hitecnologys: stassats: how would that help me not to iterate over slots to get correct initargs?
2014-11-17T16:57:31Z Krystof: to write a generic constructor with positional arguments is like, I don't know, C++ weird
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2014-11-17T16:58:03Z stassats: it's fast
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2014-11-17T17:03:34Z hitecnologys: Krystof: I'm using custom metaclasses to store structure of networking packets. To define packets I define class with "Packet" as metaclass and then slots are interpreted as packet fields if they have specific keywords in them. What I need positional arguments for is simplifying the way instances of parsed packets are created: parser will only need to APPLY parsed fields to MAKE-PACKET instead of first finding
2014-11-17T17:03:36Z hitecnologys: out how there fields are actually called in code.
2014-11-17T17:04:34Z hitecnologys: Krystof: it might sound weird but it works and looks much better than what I used to use before.
2014-11-17T17:05:34Z hitecnologys: s/there/these/
2014-11-17T17:07:04Z Krystof: ok, interesting
2014-11-17T17:07:11Z Krystof: I suspect I would break up your thing into two parts
2014-11-17T17:07:47Z Krystof: one thing which creates the binary packet data from arguments, and one thing that wraps a class around that binary packet data
2014-11-17T17:08:21Z Krystof: but your domain constrains against arbitrary subclassing / redefinition, so I think this is a bit less weird :)
2014-11-17T17:08:30Z stassats: why not use structures?
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2014-11-17T17:09:25Z hitecnologys: Krystof: I used to have approximately what use suggest but it was a bit clumsy.
2014-11-17T17:09:52Z hitecnologys: stassats: I can't simply redefine them. That's critical.
2014-11-17T17:10:02Z Krystof: I sort of still don't like the positional arguments because I might well want to leave things blank
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2014-11-17T17:10:20Z stassats: you can redefine them
2014-11-17T17:10:41Z hitecnologys: Krystof: not in my case. All fields must be there or packet is considered invalid.
2014-11-17T17:10:46Z pjb: hitecnologys: you can define YOUR-LISP:MAKE-INSTANCE as you wish, calling CL:MAKE-INSTANCE.
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2014-11-17T17:11:04Z hitecnologys: stassats: how? Last time I did that, it broke things.
2014-11-17T17:11:24Z stassats: recompile all the code that uses it, get rid of all the old instances
2014-11-17T17:12:03Z hitecnologys: pjb: I think I'll better stick to MAKE-PACKET that calls CL:MAKE-INSTNACE. This way no one will get confused too much.
2014-11-17T17:12:15Z hitecnologys: stassats: that's too much trouble.
2014-11-17T17:12:21Z stassats: it's not
2014-11-17T17:12:35Z hitecnologys: Getting rid of all the instances can be.
2014-11-17T17:13:10Z stassats: just parse everything anew
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2014-11-17T17:15:48Z hitecnologys: I also need to do magic with stuff passed as initargs to slots and then store this data somewhere close to class. I don't see how that can be easily doable with structures.
2014-11-17T17:16:54Z hitecnologys: Of course, I can split stuff into two parts, but I didn't like that approach much.
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2014-11-17T17:21:34Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-11-17T17:22:04Z hitecnologys: beach: evening.
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2014-11-17T17:24:36Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-11-17T17:33:36Z ggole: beach: I'm curious, have you reached any conclusion on the unknown-values problem?
2014-11-17T17:33:49Z beach: I think so, yes.
2014-11-17T17:34:13Z beach: Introduce a variable that can hold multiple values.
2014-11-17T17:34:37Z beach: Make RETURN take such a variable as input and CALL generate such a variable as output.
2014-11-17T17:35:23Z ggole: Ah, and then lowering it can be done in whatever way is convenient.
2014-11-17T17:35:27Z beach: Provide instruction FIXED-TO-MULTIPLE that takes a fixed number of lexical locations as input and generates a multiple values on output.
2014-11-17T17:35:40Z beach: Provide instruction MULTIPLE-TO-FIXED that does the inverse.
2014-11-17T17:35:57Z beach: Lowering?
2014-11-17T17:36:29Z ggole: Transforming to lower-level constructs
2014-11-17T17:36:36Z beach: Right.
2014-11-17T17:36:50Z ggole: Eg, a loop of copy instructions
2014-11-17T17:37:11Z beach: Yes, and that would have to be implementation-dependent.
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2014-11-17T17:41:20Z beach: I would have implemented it today, but drmeister has kept me busy :)
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2014-11-17T17:41:44Z beach: ... and now it's so late that if I try I will make lots of mistakes.
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2014-11-17T17:44:46Z drmeister cracks a whip
2014-11-17T17:45:48Z drmeister: beach: I'm working on providing more details on the NIL environments that are being passed to VARIABLE-INFO and FUNCTION-INFO.
2014-11-17T17:46:18Z beach: Thanks!
2014-11-17T17:46:37Z beach: Dinner.  I must go.  I might be back later.
2014-11-17T17:46:59Z drmeister: I'm enjoying this new concept of "mutually ensured debugging".
2014-11-17T17:47:23Z stassats: it's actually an interesting idea, writing a compiler without a backend
2014-11-17T17:47:58Z drmeister: It's like LLVM.
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2014-11-17T17:48:59Z drmeister: This could provide all sorts of new introspection tools for Common Lisp.
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2014-11-17T17:52:14Z drmeister: It's more like Clang - a compiler front end and what I'm bringing to it is more like LLVM (the backend).  Uh wait, what I'm bringing IS LLVM plus some other stuff (GC, reader, a Common Lisp implementation to run Cleavir).
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2014-11-17T17:52:38Z stassats: ha, caught a memory coruption with my memtester
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2014-11-17T17:53:44Z drmeister: Is it a Common Lisp gamma ray detector?
2014-11-17T17:53:58Z nyef: minion: advice on bad ram?
2014-11-17T17:53:58Z minion: #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'.
2014-11-17T17:54:01Z nyef: Aww.
2014-11-17T17:54:05Z nyef: minion: advice on ram?
2014-11-17T17:54:05Z minion: #11924: Well, if you don't know what it does, why did you put it in your program?
2014-11-17T17:54:08Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-11-17T17:54:16Z stassats: minion: advice on hardware
2014-11-17T17:54:16Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2014-11-17T17:54:20Z stassats: minion: advice on compiler
2014-11-17T17:54:20Z minion: #12000: Looking for a compiler bug is the second-to-last resort. The last resort is blaming bad RAM. It's never the correct hypothesis.
2014-11-17T17:54:26Z nyef: There we go, that's the one!
2014-11-17T17:55:05Z stassats: now i didn't write an examiner
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2014-11-17T17:55:45Z stassats: i actually think it's something with the motherboard, not supplying enough voltage or something
2014-11-17T17:56:21Z dlowe: bad caps, maybe
2014-11-17T17:56:23Z nyef: Or bogus bus clock speeds or something...
2014-11-17T17:56:25Z stassats: i think this time i'll use a single vector with increasing sequential integers, and print out indexes which do not match
2014-11-17T17:57:06Z nyef: Or there's a memory range that should be reserved to the power-management system but isn't exported as such to the OS...
2014-11-17T17:57:22Z stassats: things mostly work, i.e. it wakes up
2014-11-17T17:57:46Z stassats: although i have 16GB of ram, not much is needed to work
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2014-11-17T18:03:32Z drmeister: beach: I see where the NIL environments are coming from.   convert-special.lsp line 376   (let ((new-env (augment-environment-with-declarations env declarations)) ...)   The variable "env" is bound to the global environment and the returned "new-env" is nil.   declarations -> ((COMMON-LISP:DECLARE (COMMON-LISP:SPECIAL CORE:+ECL-SYNTAX-PROGV-LIST+  )  )  )
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2014-11-17T18:06:37Z drmeister: beach: I sent you an email with more details.
2014-11-17T18:06:44Z nyef: stassats: Mismatched RAM types within a bank, maybe?
2014-11-17T18:07:04Z stassats: nyef: it seem to work fine when powered on
2014-11-17T18:07:09Z stassats: so, something weird is going on
2014-11-17T18:07:30Z stassats: priting memory now to see if it's zeroed or garbled or what
2014-11-17T18:07:41Z stassats: then switching slots, ram, bios settings, etc.
2014-11-17T18:09:23Z nyef: Also try with a bare minimum of RAM?
2014-11-17T18:09:49Z stassats: what complicates things is that i have to wait some time for it to become bad
2014-11-17T18:09:50Z nyef: But yeah, anything going wrong during suspend counts as "something weird".
2014-11-17T18:09:51Z hitecnologys: Do I have to write effective slots handling code if I don't care about inheritance?
2014-11-17T18:10:00Z stassats: let's try 5 minutes
2014-11-17T18:10:20Z rszeno: memtest?
2014-11-17T18:11:38Z stassats: hitecnologys: do it before you will
2014-11-17T18:12:17Z stassats: besides, you have to have effective slot definitions even if you don't inherit anything
2014-11-17T18:12:37Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-11-17T18:13:44Z stassats imagines finding a defective RAM module and calling the manufacturer with "i wrote a small lisp program and it says your ram is bad"
2014-11-17T18:13:47Z hitecnologys: I think I got enough information for now. Thanks for help.
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2014-11-17T18:28:36Z beach: drmeister: Thanks, I'll look at it tomorrow.
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2014-11-17T18:30:18Z stassats: so, it's one bit flipped
2014-11-17T18:30:58Z dlowe: you should avoid using that bit.
2014-11-17T18:31:06Z dlowe is full of helpful advice.
2014-11-17T18:32:01Z stassats: but not in one array index, in 7, but i mucked up the format statement so i don't know what's in the rest of them
2014-11-17T18:32:25Z stassats: now to wait 10 more minutes
2014-11-17T18:32:51Z Grue`: what if the program itself is corrupted
2014-11-17T18:33:11Z dlowe: it's corruption all the way down
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2014-11-17T18:39:05Z drmeister: beach: Should I be providing a method for AUGMENT-ENVIRONMENT-WITH-DECLARATIONS specialized to the CLASP-GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT?   It sounds like a great opportunity to set things up so that I don't modify the global environment directly but just add annotations to the CLASP-GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT.
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2014-11-17T18:43:15Z drmeister: beach: Or - as you said - look at it tomorrow and we can talk later.
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2014-11-17T18:46:50Z beach: I'll think about it.
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2014-11-17T19:55:05Z lavokad: how do I start these few expression without going to slime's buffer and writing?
2014-11-17T19:55:11Z lavokad: (ql:quickload 'qt)
2014-11-17T19:55:12Z lavokad: (in-package :qt)
2014-11-17T19:55:12Z lavokad: (make-qapplication)
2014-11-17T19:55:12Z lavokad: (with-objects ((window (#_new QWidget)))
2014-11-17T19:55:15Z lavokad:   (#_show window)
2014-11-17T19:55:18Z lavokad:   (#_exec *qapplication*))
2014-11-17T19:55:21Z lavokad:  
2014-11-17T19:55:34Z stassats: don't paste here
2014-11-17T19:55:38Z lavokad: sorry
2014-11-17T19:55:58Z stassats: i don't understand your question
2014-11-17T19:56:14Z lavokad: ok, I asked very pourly
2014-11-17T19:56:47Z stassats: by the way, that whole thing can be replaced with (with-main-window (x (#_new QWidget)))
2014-11-17T19:56:56Z lavokad: if I open x.lisp and write some expression, I evaluate it in mini buffer
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2014-11-17T19:58:01Z lavokad: but to start a window, I only achieve it, compliling the .lisp writing in slime
2014-11-17T19:58:28Z stassats: when you evaluate expressions with C-c C-k or C-x C-e in a buffer, they are run in a new thread
2014-11-17T19:58:35Z stassats: Qt wants the GUI to run in a single thread
2014-11-17T19:58:49Z stassats: so, always run your main function from the repl
2014-11-17T19:58:56Z lavokad: thanks
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2014-11-17T20:17:16Z lxsameer: hey guys, I need a web framework for lisp , What framework is the "RubyonRials" of lisp ?
2014-11-17T20:19:02Z Shinmera: There is no such thing.
2014-11-17T20:19:15Z stassats: Lisp on LSD?
2014-11-17T20:20:20Z lxsameer: stassats: thanks, so what is the common web framework of lisp ?
2014-11-17T20:20:30Z stassats: don't thank me
2014-11-17T20:21:07Z stassats: the most common web thing is huchentoot
2014-11-17T20:21:12Z stassats: hunchentoot
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2014-11-17T20:22:27Z tadni: lxsameer: The only lisp-like lang I know that has anything equivalent to RoR is Clojure. Maybe ask around in #clojure?
2014-11-17T20:22:49Z tadni: I know of no such thing via CL.
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2014-11-17T20:23:07Z lxsameer: thanks guys
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2014-11-17T20:23:38Z stassats: if there were such a thing, Common Lisp on Cobbles could be a name for it
2014-11-17T20:23:44Z eschulte: if by RoR you mean ruby on rails maybe http://8arrow.org/caveman/ <- would work?
2014-11-17T20:23:59Z tadni: stassats: Cobbles?
2014-11-17T20:24:39Z tadni: eschulte: Ah, never heard of that. Around the same line.
2014-11-17T20:24:44Z tadni: lxsameer: ^
2014-11-17T20:25:11Z lxsameer: thanks
2014-11-17T20:26:06Z gendl: Hi, as anyone seen a CL-based network license manager?
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2014-11-17T20:26:41Z tadni: gendl: That autodesk thing?
2014-11-17T20:27:00Z gendl: is that CL based or autolisp based?
2014-11-17T20:27:22Z tadni: gendl: I'd suspect, if it uses any Lisp, it would be autolisp.
2014-11-17T20:27:44Z tadni: That being said, I think autolisp is more used for configuration not really core bits of the software itself.
2014-11-17T20:27:53Z tadni: Could be COMPLETLY wrong though.
2014-11-17T20:28:38Z gendl: yeah, i’m wondering about  a simple CL based license manager, something which itself is probably node-locked to a MAC address, and counts active sessions of software on a network, probably with a simple http protocol with some light encryption.
2014-11-17T20:28:42Z eschulte: If I link a static library with sbcl could I then access functions defined in that library with sb-alien? (I'd prefer to use CFFI, but it might not be possible to compile a shared version of this library)
2014-11-17T20:29:12Z Xach: gendl: i know gensym had some kind of license manager, but i think it was board- or dongle-based
2014-11-17T20:29:20Z gendl: counting licenses sort of goes against the open-source mentality, so I kind of doubt I would find such a thing in Quicklisp ;)
2014-11-17T20:29:21Z stassats: eschulte: you have to make sure they are not elided
2014-11-17T20:29:35Z stassats: and cffi is sb-alien
2014-11-17T20:29:43Z stassats: (without types_
2014-11-17T20:29:44Z stassats: )
2014-11-17T20:29:49Z eschulte: elided because they aren't used at link time?
2014-11-17T20:29:53Z gendl: it seems seductively “easy” to try to write such a thing myself, and I’m tempted… but of course don’t want to reinvent any wheels which don’t need reinventing
2014-11-17T20:29:55Z tadni: gendl: Oh, sorry. I'm REALLY out of it.
2014-11-17T20:29:56Z stassats: yes
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2014-11-17T20:30:02Z tadni: Probably 20 minutes from a nap.
2014-11-17T20:30:43Z tadni: I'm assuming something like LispWorks have one, no?
2014-11-17T20:30:52Z eschulte: stassats: thanks, good to know that it should be possible if I have to go that route
2014-11-17T20:31:02Z gendl: Any library I would buy for the purpose would almost certainly be C-based (like LM-X), so it would require integration effort -
2014-11-17T20:31:16Z gendl: I would rather spend that effort (and same some bank) by just doing something nice and simple natively in Lisp
2014-11-17T20:31:28Z gendl: same -> save
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2014-11-17T20:31:44Z gendl: LispWorks just has local licenses, as far as I’ve seen
2014-11-17T20:31:54Z gendl: local activation key, not a floating network-based license manager
2014-11-17T20:32:31Z tadni: gendl: Then I would have no idea if there is any example implementation floating around then. :^P
2014-11-17T20:32:57Z tadni writes a licensing conformation system for Emacs.
2014-11-17T20:37:51Z ioanna: hey all, i'm a newbie with a silly question, could anyone tell me how "true" is defined in common-lisp? as opposed to "nil" which is defined as the empty list i mean. everywhere i search it says it can be seen as a primitive, but i really want to know how it is defined.
2014-11-17T20:38:12Z gendl: “true” is anything other than nil.
2014-11-17T20:38:16Z ioanna: by "true" i mean "T"
2014-11-17T20:38:26Z gendl: anything which is not nil (or the empty list) is considered “true” for logical purposes.
2014-11-17T20:38:32Z stassats: t is a constant variable, it's bound to the symbol t
2014-11-17T20:38:39Z stassats: there's nothing special about it
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2014-11-17T20:38:50Z ioanna: so just (not nil) then
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2014-11-17T20:39:44Z stassats: that will return T
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2014-11-17T20:43:11Z ioanna: i'll just go read up some more theory, i think there's something i'm not understanding very well, thanks :)
2014-11-17T20:43:41Z stassats: you shouldn't, there's nothing profound about T
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2014-11-17T20:43:52Z ioanna: i don't expect there to be  :)
2014-11-17T20:44:08Z stassats: and you don't need to know, unless you're trying to implement it
2014-11-17T20:44:19Z stassats: and if you need to implement it, then you're doing something wrong
2014-11-17T20:44:45Z ioanna: haha, well, sometimes i like to know things just because i'm curious, nothing to implement here
2014-11-17T20:44:49Z ioanna: :)
2014-11-17T20:45:25Z stassats: and i'm surprised that you think T is interesting, NIL is far more complicated
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2014-11-17T20:45:59Z eschulte: ioanna: I think stassats first response should answer your question.  I read his answer as simply (defconstant t 't).
2014-11-17T20:46:20Z dlowe: for a good time in sbcl, check out the error on (set t nil) and (set nil t)
2014-11-17T20:46:44Z stassats: was there a bug about bad latin?
2014-11-17T20:46:44Z ioanna: statssats, i don't think T is either interesting or uninteresting, yes i did have trouble with nil last week..
2014-11-17T20:46:51Z nyef: stassats: Yes. Yes, there was.
2014-11-17T20:47:01Z dlowe: yeah, the set nil case is bad.
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2014-11-17T20:47:14Z ioanna: eschulte: thanks
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2014-11-17T20:47:21Z stassats: lp 504819
2014-11-17T20:47:21Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/504819
2014-11-17T20:47:27Z dlowe: it should be nihil ex nihilo
2014-11-17T20:47:37Z nyef: Which leads, of course, to the question "ancient latin, not-so-ancient latin, ecclesiastical latin, or legal latin?"
2014-11-17T20:47:55Z dlowe: "Nothing comes from nothing (Latin: ex nihilo nihil fit) is a philosophical expression of a thesis first argued by Parmenides."
2014-11-17T20:48:24Z stassats: nyef: pig latin
2014-11-17T20:48:25Z ioanna: dlowe that was funny thanks :) now i proved the consistency of my logic, i can go to sleep :P
2014-11-17T20:49:15Z nyef: stassats: And "easy latin", also known as "italian".
2014-11-17T20:49:38Z nyef: And there's probably a "late latin" as well.
2014-11-17T20:50:09Z stassats: it's in latin1
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2014-11-17T20:50:23Z stassats: that i'm sure of
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2014-11-17T20:52:21Z nyef: Why would you even need that much? Surely ASCII is more than sufficient?
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2014-11-17T20:54:15Z nyef: (Good old ASCII, from ^@ to ^?, or from NUL to DEL.)
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2014-11-17T21:04:17Z rhollor: Does any one know if there is a way to run a bash command from sbcl?
2014-11-17T21:04:49Z Xach: rhollor: yes. (sb-ext:run-program "bash" (list "-c" <command arguments>) :search t)
2014-11-17T21:04:58Z Xach: err, not quite that.
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2014-11-17T21:05:08Z Xach: <command arguments> should be the command-line string. there are other options too.
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2014-11-17T21:07:32Z rhollor: Xach: thanks, I needed p to run a program in Land of Lisp, but they used (ext:shell) because he uses clisp or something
2014-11-17T21:10:11Z rak[1]: rhollor: ^Land of Lisp expects Clisp
2014-11-17T21:10:50Z Xach: rhollor: sb-ext:run-program is the thing to use on sbcl, or you can use a portability layer
2014-11-17T21:11:22Z rak[1]: Xach: what package is used for portable externally running a programming?
2014-11-17T21:11:32Z rak[1]: assuming a *nix system underneath of course
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2014-11-17T21:12:02Z Shinmera: uiop
2014-11-17T21:12:18Z Shinmera: as in, uiop:run-program
2014-11-17T21:12:26Z rak[1]: Shinmera: thanks.
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2014-11-17T21:39:39Z rhollor: I just learned the loop command. How do you remember all those keywords!
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2014-11-17T21:39:55Z Shinmera: Repeated use over time.
2014-11-17T21:40:45Z Bicyclidine: look em up online
2014-11-17T21:41:36Z Xach: use a subset
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2014-11-17T21:44:47Z rhollor: whatever happend to the good old for/while loops? they seem simple enough
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2014-11-17T21:44:53Z dlowe: the only one you really need is (loop while x do y)
2014-11-17T21:45:26Z dlowe: (don't show him the DO form)
2014-11-17T21:45:41Z Shinmera: He quit, so talk about do all you like.
2014-11-17T21:46:15Z dlowe: heh.
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2014-11-17T21:54:28Z pjb: rhollor: <dlowe> the only one you really need is (loop while x do y)
2014-11-17T21:55:30Z pjb: rhollor: so, what do you say of that?
2014-11-17T21:55:33Z rhollor: pjb: true enough
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2014-11-17T22:06:02Z Vivitron: rhollor: DO is similar to a for loop, but imo tends to be harder to read than an equivalent LOOP
2014-11-17T22:06:49Z Shinmera: You can just write your own FOR macro.
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2014-11-17T22:09:32Z rhollor: Shinmera: I just might, as a project
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2014-11-17T22:14:39Z rhollor: Shinmera: or maybe not a project, I don't how difficult it is to write a macro yet because learned how yet
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2014-11-17T22:15:17Z Shinmera: I'd say it's a good, small challenge to study/learn macros by once you get there.
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2014-11-17T22:18:18Z rhollor: is there any purely functional programming languages? I mean languages that don't do any side effects at all. is something like that even practical? It has to at least write to something, right?
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2014-11-17T22:21:07Z Bicyclidine: lambda calculus, haskell, being off topic
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2014-11-17T22:23:12Z wow4: In lisp implementations (parsing) how remove comments?....what if  var has ; in name?!?!
2014-11-17T22:23:24Z rhollor: wouldn't a programming language writing to standard output kind of break the barrier though?
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2014-11-17T22:23:27Z wow4: se
2014-11-17T22:23:37Z stassats: wow4: lisp implementations do not parse lisp
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2014-11-17T22:23:41Z wow4: e pro lem?
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2014-11-17T22:26:26Z wow4: if you wanted to remove comments how do so?
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2014-11-17T22:26:59Z stassats: in general, you can't do that
2014-11-17T22:28:17Z theseb: what if not limited to lisp?
2014-11-17T22:29:13Z stassats: as usual, i do not understand your form of communication
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2014-11-17T22:39:17Z theseb: stassats: if you were implementing lisp... removing comments in a preprocessing step is trickier than it may seem
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2014-11-17T22:43:29Z resttime: does anyone have a problem loading the latest CFFI repo from git?
2014-11-17T22:43:47Z resttime: with SBCL
2014-11-17T22:44:11Z resttime: seems to complain for somebody else and me
2014-11-17T22:44:20Z resttime: durin compile time
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2014-11-17T22:44:56Z Xach: resttime: I think I saw that issue as well. I usually use the release, not git head.
2014-11-17T22:45:48Z resttime: Xach, I think I have solution in that case https://github.com/cffi/cffi/issues/50
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2014-11-17T22:52:16Z Baggers: Any Oslo based lispers hiding out here?
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2014-11-17T22:53:40Z jasom: theseb: removing comments in a preprocessing step would be disallowed, as someone could modify the readtable at runtime
2014-11-17T22:54:05Z jasom: s/runtime/readtime
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2014-11-17T22:56:39Z jasom: theseb: in any event, clhs chapter 2 has a complete description of how lisp is parsed
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2014-11-17T22:58:04Z jasom: theseb: note that if a symbol-name contains a semicolon, it will need to be escaped for the reader to parse it as part of the symbol
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2014-11-17T22:59:14Z pillton: jasom: Thanks for posting the issue on GitHub. I'll take a look sometime this week.
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2014-11-17T22:59:24Z jasom: theseb: e.g. "foo;bar\n" is the symbol named "foo" followed by a comment and "foo\;bar" or "|foo;bar|" is the symbol named "foo;bar"
2014-11-17T22:59:41Z jasom: pillton: no problem; did I tell you I got "woo" working with basic-binary-ipc instead of cl-async?
2014-11-17T23:00:05Z pillton: jasom: No. What is "woo"?
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2014-11-17T23:00:18Z jasom: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
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2014-11-17T23:00:43Z pillton: Ah cool!
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2014-11-17T23:01:25Z jasom: pillton: it benchmarks at about 97% the req/s of woo with cl-async, but I had to write a server-loop (since cl-async already has one) and I haven't optimized that much yet.
2014-11-17T23:02:42Z pillton: Nice.
2014-11-17T23:02:53Z jasom: I haven't tried on windows yet
2014-11-17T23:03:08Z pillton: Oh windows. There is a bug in CFFI that prevents it from working at the moment.
2014-11-17T23:03:21Z jasom: doh!
2014-11-17T23:03:22Z pillton: I've been meaning to report that for a while now.
2014-11-17T23:03:44Z jasom: after all that lovely work with overlapped i/o too
2014-11-17T23:03:52Z pillton: The groveller doesn't handle unsigned int as a :base-type correctly.
2014-11-17T23:04:06Z pillton: The patch is easy.
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2014-11-17T23:04:51Z pillton: I started looking in to implementing RUN-PROGRAM and lisp streams.
2014-11-17T23:04:54Z jasom: I also have only benchmarked with the standard poll interface; on a benchmark that ought-not matter much though since all sockets will be active no gain is to be had from epoll
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2014-11-17T23:05:55Z jasom: and it was the woo benchmark that uncovered the EPOLL issue too
2014-11-17T23:06:26Z pillton: Thanks again. It is much appreciated. The documentation on POLLERR is vague.
2014-11-17T23:06:49Z jasom: pillton: I found a few referrences for a RST causing it on linux
2014-11-17T23:07:34Z jasom: the docs are indeed vague; it basically just means "something went wrong" and it could be as bad as "this fd doesn't support poll" or as benign as "the TCP state machine for this fd isn't in a state where we can complete the poll operation"
2014-11-17T23:08:09Z pillton: There is no way to get a message about why POLLERR is being signalled?
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2014-11-17T23:09:13Z jasom: pillton: not that I could find
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2014-11-17T23:11:51Z jasom: pillton: it might be best to just propogate the values up to the application
2014-11-17T23:12:27Z jasom: just like data-available-p &ct
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2014-11-17T23:13:43Z jasom: though I suppose you have the opportunity to be smarter, since you happen to already know what kind of socket it is
2014-11-17T23:13:46Z jasom: (TCP, UNIX)
2014-11-17T23:14:33Z jasom: getsockopt can return information in that case, IIRC
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2014-11-17T23:16:53Z pillton: I'll see what happens when I remove the POLLERR symbol from the DEFINE-POLL-FD-EVENT forms. If that works, I'll add another socket state symbol e.g. EXCEPTIONAL-CONDITION-P.
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2014-11-17T23:18:55Z pillton: Anyway, this is my last day of work before I'm on holidays. I'll investigate the issue later in the week.
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2014-11-17T23:28:03Z pjb: jasom: notice that foo;bar is read as the symbol named "FOO;BAR".  Try it if you don't believe me (copy and paste it in a REPL, prefixed with a ').
2014-11-17T23:28:17Z jasom: pjb: bah, forgot that it was non-terminating
2014-11-17T23:28:26Z pjb: jasom: nope, you didn't forgot.
2014-11-17T23:28:31Z pjb: foo;bar would read as you said.
2014-11-17T23:28:37Z jasom: it is terminating
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2014-11-17T23:29:24Z jasom: (read-from-string "foo;bar") => FOO ; 3
2014-11-17T23:29:30Z pjb: (not (eq 'foo;bar \n 'foo;bar)) --> T
2014-11-17T23:29:54Z pjb: (read-from-string "foo;bar") -> foo;bar ; 7
2014-11-17T23:30:02Z pjb: try it, copy and paste this read-from-string form.
2014-11-17T23:31:05Z drmeister: Is it acceptable to define a class that inherits from an undefined class?   In this case it appears that one-successors-mixin has not been defined when short-float-add-instruction is defined:  (defclass short-float-add-instruction (instruction one-successors-mixin) ... )
2014-11-17T23:31:11Z jasom: pjb: greek_question_mark
2014-11-17T23:31:15Z pjb: drmeister: yes.
2014-11-17T23:31:18Z pjb: jasom: yes.
2014-11-17T23:31:26Z jasom: (map 'list #'char-name "foo;bar") => ("LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_F" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_O" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_O" "GREEK_QUESTION_MARK" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_B" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_A" "LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_R")
2014-11-17T23:31:40Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: yeah, it's a forward-defined-class, or something along those lines
2014-11-17T23:31:40Z stassats: drmeister: it'll be forward referenced, naturally you can't finalize or instantiate it
2014-11-17T23:31:42Z pjb: unicode is funny :-)
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2014-11-17T23:32:39Z pjb: jasom: (not (eq 'bаr 'bar)) -> T
2014-11-17T23:32:43Z jasom: pjb: now I want to find a unicode enabled C and write an entire program with only that character used in identifiers
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2014-11-17T23:33:15Z drmeister: Ok, I'll have to see why my(ECL) CLOS throws an error - maybe I broke something in the months that it took me to get CLOS to work.
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2014-11-17T23:33:57Z pjb: jasom: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Character-sets.html
2014-11-17T23:33:59Z jasom: ;=2;;;=2*;;
2014-11-17T23:34:31Z pjb: http://llvm.org/releases/3.3/tools/clang/docs/ReleaseNotes.html
2014-11-17T23:34:37Z pjb: both support it.
2014-11-17T23:35:05Z pjb: jasom: it's more pernicious to just substitute one character per file :-)
2014-11-17T23:35:22Z pjb: (and push it to git :-))
2014-11-17T23:36:07Z jasom: pjb: need to make a comment change on the same line so that nobody notices with line-based diffs
2014-11-17T23:36:19Z jasom: or include it with a "reindent whole file" commit
2014-11-17T23:36:22Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-17T23:36:24Z pjb: :-)
2014-11-17T23:36:30Z pjb: Let's write a script.
2014-11-17T23:36:40Z pjb: (in clisp to stay on topic).
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