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2014-11-09T00:35:55Z pjb: It's a bad idea to use (intern x #.*package*) because packages are not writable in fasl files!   (intern x) is already equivalent to (intern x *package*)  You may use (intern x (load-time-value *package*)) instead, but in general, just specify the package you want to intern to explicitely.  (intern x "MY-PACKAGE").
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2014-11-09T00:55:29Z vowyer_: pjb: thanks for the insight
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2014-11-09T01:56:20Z Bike: (intern x #.(package-name *package*)), clearly
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2014-11-09T02:37:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-11-09T02:40:09Z vowyer_: beach: morning? It's 23.40 here :D
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2014-11-09T02:43:48Z beach: Yeah, I was hoping to catch Xach, but this is Saturday night where he is so I can't expect him to be on IRC.
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2014-11-09T03:55:59Z Xach: Of course I am on IRC
2014-11-09T03:56:05Z Xach: but not for long!
2014-11-09T03:56:21Z beach: OK, no problem.
2014-11-09T03:56:53Z beach: So my question was whether you update the list of ASDF files manually, then?
2014-11-09T03:57:37Z beach: And, what should I do to get mcclim-truetype recognized?
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2014-11-09T03:58:54Z Xach: beach: i set up an environment where every system file in the "universe" is visible to asdf, then build them one by one. whichever one builds is included. it is mostly automatic.
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2014-11-09T03:59:11Z beach: Oh, I see.
2014-11-09T03:59:18Z Xach: beach: if i were you, i would eliminate the dependency on clim-clx, or make clim-clx its own system.
2014-11-09T03:59:25Z beach: Yes.  Got it.
2014-11-09T03:59:38Z beach: I will do that and then tell you when it's done.
2014-11-09T03:59:43Z Xach: ok
2014-11-09T03:59:44Z beach: Is that all I need to do?
2014-11-09T04:00:06Z Xach: Yes - if there are problems building, I can alert you, too, via a github issue
2014-11-09T04:00:17Z beach: Excellent!  We have a deal.
2014-11-09T04:00:50Z Xach: it helps to know the expectations. i have not reported mcclim system problems because i did not expect them to be addressed, and also nobody complained.
2014-11-09T04:01:00Z Xach: more the latter than the former
2014-11-09T04:01:22Z beach: Yeah, I get it.  Maybe the maintainer will be a bit more reactive now.
2014-11-09T04:01:48Z beach: Plus, that now someone complained :)
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2014-11-09T06:04:08Z caps: (format t "~a" #\return) prints ^M on *slime-repl sbcl*. need help.
2014-11-09T06:04:36Z pjb: caps: help for what?
2014-11-09T06:04:41Z beach: caps: Return *is* Control-M.
2014-11-09T06:06:22Z caps: i was printing an animation for buffering. and it keeps on printing ^M in between.
2014-11-09T06:06:36Z pjb: With some work, you could make slime move the cursor at the beginning of the line when it receives a #\Return, and overwrite the line.
2014-11-09T06:06:53Z beach: caps: Why are you printing returns if you don't want them?
2014-11-09T06:07:17Z pjb: See for example: https://gitorious.org/nasium-lse/nasium-lse/source/src/swank-terminal.lisp
2014-11-09T06:08:56Z pjb: caps: you could hook it up with Gray streams too, or perhaps hack swank streams.
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2014-11-09T06:10:13Z pjb: On the other hand, I don't think it'd be easy to do it only from the slime side.  IIRC, the slime repl is not a comint buffer, so comint output filters wouldn't do, and anyways slime does more sophisticated stuff in its repl buffers.
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2014-11-09T06:12:55Z caps: okay.
2014-11-09T06:13:48Z pjb: caps: if you want to print progress, it would be easier to do something like wget, detecting whether you are on a terminal (that would support #\Return) or not, and therefore using a different way of displaying progress (eg. display lines of dots instead of an updated percentage).
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2014-11-09T06:23:16Z caps: <pjb>: what is "lse-"?
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2014-11-09T06:26:58Z caps: <pjb>: thanks for swank-terminal.lisp.
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2014-11-09T06:49:19Z pjb: caps: LSE = Langage Symbolique d'Enseignement  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSE_(programming_language)
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2014-11-09T08:14:50Z beach: Xach: I interchanged :clim-clx and :mcclim in the :depends-on lists of :mcclim-truetype and :mcclim-freetype.  They both build now.  It is not an ideal solution, but I can't do better right now.
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2014-11-09T08:16:00Z beach: I need to do some serious preventive maintenance on McCLIM. *sigh*
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2014-11-09T08:47:45Z caps: pjb: what argument should i provide to com.informatimago.lse:terminal-carriage-return in *slime-repl sbcl* on emacs?
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2014-11-09T09:32:06Z nydel: i'm trying to kinda parse the results of (time (+ 2 2)) into values, some sexpr / list etc.. how could one do this? i see that (multiple-value-list (time (+ 2 2))) returns the eval-down of (list 4) and (multiple-value-bind (a b c d e f g) (time (+ 2 2))) evaluates down to nil. any help greatly appreciated.
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2014-11-09T09:40:55Z caps: <nydel> time function print timing information to *trace-output*. i think you have to parse that.
2014-11-09T09:41:35Z Shinmera: !clhs time
2014-11-09T09:41:40Z Shinmera: clhs time
2014-11-09T09:41:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm
2014-11-09T09:41:45Z Shinmera: " The nature and format of the printed information is implementation-defined"
2014-11-09T09:42:12Z Shinmera: If you want to grab the output, dive into time With M-. and see what kind of functions the implementation uses to get the information.
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2014-11-09T09:43:37Z nydel: caps: Shinmera: thank yous! i wonder if i can format to *standard-output* or *terminal-io* for a minute
2014-11-09T09:44:06Z Shinmera: What do you want the output of time for anyway?
2014-11-09T09:44:36Z nydel: i'm trying to present a counter-argument to the claim "2 + 2 = 4" and i'm going with that the one side implies a form not evaluated down and the other implies an expressed value, with their respective calculation times underlining the difference.
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2014-11-09T09:45:48Z Shinmera: That still doesn't explain why you need the values time outputs rather than being content with just seeing what it prints.
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2014-11-09T09:46:54Z Shinmera: If you're looking to benchmark something you might want to look at trivial-benchmark.
2014-11-09T09:47:02Z nydel: (+ 2 2) and 4 will evaluate down to the same thing
2014-11-09T09:47:11Z Grue`: timing such a simple operation as 2+2 wouldn't really be accurate
2014-11-09T09:47:27Z Shinmera: Also the compiler might inline it if it's smart enough.
2014-11-09T09:47:29Z Grue`: you need to loop it many times, and even then the compiler might optimize it or something
2014-11-09T09:47:31Z nydel: Grue`: i thought of that & so i am doing it 10k times
2014-11-09T09:47:42Z nydel: Grue`: but i'm not sure how to do the same to "4"
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2014-11-09T09:48:37Z nydel: something like (loop for i from 0 to 999 collect [(+ 2 2)] 4) i guess
2014-11-09T09:48:42Z beach: nydel: It is very likely that the compiler applies an optimization technique known as "constant propagation" so that the + function will never be called at runtime if you give it constant arguments.
2014-11-09T09:48:52Z nydel: inside #'time of course
2014-11-09T09:49:24Z nydel: beach: i was worried about that. how similar is this to memoization?
2014-11-09T09:49:42Z beach: constant propagation is much simpler.
2014-11-09T09:50:02Z Shinmera: You can write a very simple compiler macro to do constant propagation.
2014-11-09T09:51:17Z nydel: ! does sbcl do constant propagation automatically
2014-11-09T09:51:44Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-09T09:51:54Z Shinmera: M-. on + would've told you so
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2014-11-09T09:52:44Z nydel: blip blep blop. how do i stop it from so doing?
2014-11-09T09:53:04Z nydel: (i'm running backward exercises all over the place today!)
2014-11-09T09:53:07Z Shinmera: Writing a wrapper around + might work.
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2014-11-09T09:54:19Z nydel: what about writing my own addition function definition
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2014-11-09T09:54:51Z beach: What is it that you are trying to measure?
2014-11-09T09:54:56Z nydel: i kind of think it'll still optimize
2014-11-09T09:55:25Z nydel: beach: really i'm just trying to present any counter-argument to the claim "2 + 2 = 4"
2014-11-09T09:55:37Z nydel: no wrong answers, it's just an exercise.
2014-11-09T09:55:54Z beach: And how would that counter argument be phrased?
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2014-11-09T09:56:45Z nydel: i was thinking the results of timing both (+ 2 2) and 4 in a few languages
2014-11-09T09:57:05Z nydel: but i'd rather you told me how that counter argument might be formed. anything you might think of.
2014-11-09T09:57:09Z beach: How is that a counter argument to 2 + 2 = 4?
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2014-11-09T09:57:48Z nydel: the idea of the exercise is that "2 + 2 = 4" is true. so the counter-arguments assume an arena of moral & scientific / mathematic relativism.
2014-11-09T09:58:01Z nydel: any counter will be false but some more interesting than others
2014-11-09T09:58:20Z Shinmera: I think what he's trying to say is that "2+2" isn't the same as it involves computation.
2014-11-09T09:58:31Z beach: And the one you are trying to obtain is something like "They don't take the same time to compute"?
2014-11-09T09:58:39Z nydel: Shinmera: that's my first (and i suspect lame) attempt
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2014-11-09T09:58:49Z nydel: but there must be a billion ways to argue against the claim
2014-11-09T09:59:04Z nydel: beach: yes, right. weak isn't it?
2014-11-09T09:59:10Z nydel: anyone have something better?
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2014-11-09T09:59:50Z beach: That's good enough.  But any good compiler will optimize away the addition, so you might have to resort to assembler.
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2014-11-09T10:01:08Z nydel: it's actually had different time results in one go in 12 languages & 19 interpreters so far
2014-11-09T10:01:23Z nydel: but i feel there's something way cooler to use to argue aginst 2 + 2 = 4
2014-11-09T10:01:38Z beach: That only proves that those languages don't have a "good compiler".
2014-11-09T10:01:46Z Shinmera: You might have better chances at a compiler that isn't as good as SBCL http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.09-11:01:36.png
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2014-11-09T10:02:38Z nydel: beach, Shinmera, time (+ 2 2) and 4 separately in your SBCL's & tell me the times aren't different, could you?
2014-11-09T10:03:02Z nydel: my primary computer isn't at peak shape so i believe it if that's the problem - is why i ask
2014-11-09T10:03:05Z beach: nydel: The accuracy of TIME is not good enough for that anyway.
2014-11-09T10:03:35Z nydel: too minute?
2014-11-09T10:04:07Z beach: nydel: Furthermore, you are timing the evaluation of the form, which might include compiling it.  All that stuff will make the time for the addition insignificant.
2014-11-09T10:05:41Z nydel: beach: thaaaaaat made sense. plus i should be timing (+ 4) not 4.
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2014-11-09T10:06:16Z nydel: wait why does (+ 2 2) take twice as long as (+ 4) ? [and (+ 4 0)]
2014-11-09T10:06:26Z beach: nydel: My SBCL reports 1 or 2 μs, which is probably more than 1000 times slower than the addition takes.
2014-11-09T10:06:49Z beach: Because it takes longer to compile?
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2014-11-09T10:07:37Z nydel: but i'm running them parallel and 10k times each
2014-11-09T10:08:00Z beach: And how are you doing that?
2014-11-09T10:08:18Z beach: (loop repeat 10000 do (+ 2 2))?
2014-11-09T10:08:47Z beach: If so, there is another optimization that will remove any computation without side effects in a context where the value is not needed.
2014-11-09T10:08:47Z nydel: close. recursive function calls in bordeaux threads
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2014-11-09T10:09:30Z alpha-: *cough* overhead *cough*
2014-11-09T10:09:31Z beach: Recursive function calls?  Then you will measure the time for recursive function calls and not for additions.
2014-11-09T10:09:42Z Shinmera: This seems like an exercise in futility to me.
2014-11-09T10:09:50Z beach: nydel: There is no way you can win here.
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2014-11-09T10:10:05Z nydel: Shinmera is right & beach i accept that
2014-11-09T10:10:18Z nydel: i've enough on this particular "counter-argument"
2014-11-09T10:10:29Z nydel: if anyone can think of another i'd love to hear it.
2014-11-09T10:11:03Z Shinmera: You can define an algebra where 2+2 isn't the same as 4. *shrug*
2014-11-09T10:11:21Z nydel: no *shrug*ing, this is good
2014-11-09T10:11:32Z beach: I would start by phrasing the problem differently.  When most people see 2 + 2 and 4, they think of the standard mathematical interpretation of it, in which case they are the same.
2014-11-09T10:11:54Z nydel: base 3 would make for 4 to not exist, for example.
2014-11-09T10:12:11Z nydel: what else might they see, beach?
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2014-11-09T10:13:19Z beach: I think Shinmera has the key.  You will have to use a non-standard interpretation of one or more of the symbols `2', `+', `=', and `4'.
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2014-11-09T10:14:06Z beach: Like in digital logic, + is used for OR, so 10 + 10 = 10
2014-11-09T10:14:46Z beach: Or rather 1 + 1 = 1, because it is usually limited to a single operand.
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2014-11-09T10:15:07Z nydel: clap f'kin clap beach
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2014-11-09T10:15:14Z nydel: that is by far the best answer i've heard so far
2014-11-09T10:16:43Z Shinmera: You could also just remap the numbers so that 4 is something else.
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2014-11-09T10:17:54Z nydel: Shinmera: this doesn't necessarily have to be attacked in terms of computer science or pure maths even
2014-11-09T10:18:15Z nydel: but that give me an idea, i mean, i could say that 2 + 2 is equal to twotwo, and 4 is equal to four.
2014-11-09T10:18:26Z nydel: (i need 20 of these)
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2014-11-09T11:23:10Z caps: how do i use com.informatimago.lse to move the print cursor to the beginning?
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2014-11-09T11:25:26Z caps: can anyone show an example?
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2014-11-09T12:04:21Z nerock: hi, can someone help me with a sort of silly question with scheme, im stuck
2014-11-09T12:05:50Z oleo: shoot
2014-11-09T12:07:07Z nerock: (define (revhalf L) (if(evenList1 L)(removelastHalf (Length L) (reverse1 L) ))
2014-11-09T12:07:32Z nerock: when i call (revhalf '(1 2 3 4 5 6))
2014-11-09T12:07:42Z nerock: it give me (revhalf '(1 2 3 4 5 6))
2014-11-09T12:08:00Z nerock: (1 2 3 4 5 6)
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2014-11-09T12:08:50Z nerock: sorry i mean when i call (revhalf '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) it gives me
2014-11-09T12:08:53Z oleo: what are you trying to achieve ?
2014-11-09T12:09:01Z nerock: (6 5 4 3 2 1)
2014-11-09T12:09:06Z oleo: and why don't you ask in #scheme ?
2014-11-09T12:09:27Z oleo: ya it gives you the last thing in your define
2014-11-09T12:10:46Z oleo: you don't touch parameters given....
2014-11-09T12:11:01Z oleo: L is something you operate on, altering it is dangerous....
2014-11-09T12:11:26Z oleo: use another variable inside your define and touch that one....
2014-11-09T12:12:03Z nerock: basically all i want is to take a list and reverse it first then remove the last half
2014-11-09T12:13:23Z oleo: the remove gives you a temporary you didn't store anywhere....
2014-11-09T12:13:48Z oleo: see it ?
2014-11-09T12:14:01Z Grue`: isn't it the same as removing the first half and reversing the rest?
2014-11-09T12:14:42Z Grue`: in fact just (reverse (butlast list (/ (length list) 2)))
2014-11-09T12:15:05Z Grue`: wait, not butlast
2014-11-09T12:15:20Z Grue`: nthcdr
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2014-11-09T12:16:46Z nerock: im not allowed to use nthcdr :/
2014-11-09T12:17:30Z Grue`: well idk if it even exists in scheme, but it's just cdr applied n times
2014-11-09T12:17:39Z Grue`: can't be too hard to implement
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2014-11-09T13:10:05Z H4ns: (defun nthcdr (n list)
2014-11-09T13:10:10Z H4ns: oehm
2014-11-09T13:11:13Z H4ns: (defun nthcdr* (n list) (if (zerop n) list (nthcdr (1- n) (cdr list))))
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2014-11-09T13:18:05Z ggole: (nthcdr -1 nil)
2014-11-09T13:23:10Z Xach: beach: http://report.quicklisp.org/mcclim/2014-11-09/failtail.txt has the latest failure log
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2014-11-09T13:25:09Z puchacz: hi, has anybody built a whiltelist html sanitiser atop of (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder) please?
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2014-11-09T13:25:37Z stassats: i did, not with a dom builder
2014-11-09T13:25:55Z puchacz: stassats, does it choke on html5?
2014-11-09T13:26:01Z stassats: haven't tried
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2014-11-09T13:26:12Z puchacz: which parser are you using?
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2014-11-09T13:26:25Z stassats: closure-html
2014-11-09T13:26:43Z puchacz: is it open source / can I see it pls?
2014-11-09T13:26:55Z stassats: it's not / i don't know
2014-11-09T13:27:10Z puchacz: ok, don't worry then :-)
2014-11-09T13:27:46Z stassats: basically i defined methods for hax:start-element and hax:end-element and conditionally called call-next-method
2014-11-09T13:28:30Z puchacz: do you copy text content of forbidden tags when you remove them?
2014-11-09T13:28:44Z puchacz: does not make sense for say <script> but for many others it does
2014-11-09T13:28:52Z stassats: i didn't
2014-11-09T13:29:11Z puchacz: ok, I will cobble something together
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2014-11-09T13:29:22Z stassats: it was really simplistic
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2014-11-09T13:31:00Z beach: Xach: Thanks!
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2014-11-09T14:23:36Z l3thal: puchacz: can you see this repo? https://bitbucket.org/nightshade427/cxml
2014-11-09T14:23:52Z l3thal: not sure if it's public, I think I'm logged out
2014-11-09T14:23:53Z l3thal: hehe
2014-11-09T14:24:12Z l3thal: it may help you get where you're going though
2014-11-09T14:24:44Z puchacz: |3thal| yes, I use cxml :)
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2014-11-09T14:25:51Z l3thal: right, this is a fork that is extended
2014-11-09T14:25:58Z l3thal: and handles html very well
2014-11-09T14:26:10Z puchacz: ah
2014-11-09T14:26:19Z puchacz: thanks then - I will grab the extended fork :-)
2014-11-09T14:26:34Z l3thal: hehe
2014-11-09T14:26:43Z puchacz: is html5 covered?
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2014-11-09T14:27:05Z l3thal: yeah, for the most part I would say so
2014-11-09T14:29:24Z puchacz: great
2014-11-09T14:30:47Z l3thal: kinda curious though, let me know if this works for you. or even if it doesnt
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2014-11-09T14:32:45Z puchacz: ok, I will make myself a note
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2014-11-09T14:42:52Z l3thal: thanks!
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2014-11-09T14:43:31Z stassats: anybody has any ideas on how to deal with non-cased characters in char-lessp?
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2014-11-09T14:44:11Z stassats: on sbcl (sort "abcd[]`" #'char-lessp) => "[]`abcd"
2014-11-09T14:44:19Z stassats: ccl (sort "abcd[]`" #'char-lessp) => "abcd[]`"
2014-11-09T14:46:20Z l3thal: hrm, thats strange
2014-11-09T14:46:43Z stassats: it's not, sbcl downcases before comparing, everything else upcases
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2014-11-09T14:46:53Z l3thal: oh, i did not know that
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2014-11-09T14:47:08Z l3thal: I only have used sbcl
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2014-11-09T14:48:11Z stassats: let's see what other languages doo
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2014-11-09T14:56:15Z stassats: java downcases
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2014-11-09T15:07:56Z stassats: C# upcases
2014-11-09T15:07:56Z stassats: fun
2014-11-09T15:09:52Z l3thal: weeeeee
2014-11-09T15:09:55Z l3thal: haha
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2014-11-09T15:45:21Z Shinmera: Finally a nice way to define menus. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/2014-11-09-164427_3840x1200_scrot.png
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2014-11-09T15:54:30Z luis: Shinmera: does that work well if one has to define menus dynamically and such?
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2014-11-09T16:09:21Z Shinmera: luis: Well, nothing's stopping you from defining menus the old fashioned way
2014-11-09T16:11:57Z luis: shinmera: my point is: can you mix both without having to rewrite your menus?
2014-11-09T16:12:30Z Shinmera: luis: You can always add on to a menu by fetching it with Qt functions, but there's currently no easy syntax to mix the two.
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2014-11-09T16:12:48Z luis: ok. :-)
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2014-11-09T16:13:04Z Shinmera: I'll have to think on that though.
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2014-11-09T16:13:23Z luis: but it looks nice for static menus!
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2014-11-09T16:20:30Z Shinmera: luis: Is this good enough? http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/2014-11-09-171947_3840x1200_scrot.png
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2014-11-09T16:24:03Z luis: yeah.
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2014-11-09T17:09:31Z freehck: hello
2014-11-09T17:10:19Z freehck: I want to define a variable for a compile-time in order to use it in my macro. In Racket finnrobiScheme there's define-syntax for definitions while being on 1+ phase levels. And what does exist for these purpose in CL?
2014-11-09T17:10:37Z freehck: *In Racket Scheme
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2014-11-09T17:15:02Z Bike: eval-when
2014-11-09T17:16:13Z nyef: I try not to use macros in the same file that I define them if they have dependencies like that.
2014-11-09T17:20:11Z freehck: thank you, Bike
2014-11-09T17:20:55Z freehck: nyef: it's a dependency of a constant, so I think it's not a problem.
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2014-11-09T19:22:53Z freehck: One more question: isn't plus a generic function?
2014-11-09T19:22:58Z freehck: I mean +
2014-11-09T19:23:03Z stassats: no
2014-11-09T19:23:20Z freehck: hm...
2014-11-09T19:23:28Z freehck: so I can't do it: (defmethod + ((v1 conservative-variables) (v2 conservative-variables)) ...)
2014-11-09T19:23:32Z stassats: no
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2014-11-09T19:24:24Z freehck: And what's walkaround? (defun my+ ...)?
2014-11-09T19:24:32Z stassats: yes
2014-11-09T19:24:37Z stassats: plus isn't take
2014-11-09T19:24:40Z stassats: n
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2014-11-09T19:37:35Z H4ns: .
2014-11-09T19:39:23Z stassats: i don't do dots
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2014-11-09T19:42:59Z l3thal: do dots do you?
2014-11-09T19:43:03Z l3thal: ;D
2014-11-09T19:43:19Z l3thal: sorry I'm in a silly mood
2014-11-09T19:43:25Z l3thal: gonna take a nap :P
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2014-11-09T19:45:05Z PuercoPop: freehck: you can also define your own package and shadow cl:+. Cl21 is doing that for equalp in this file for example: https://github.com/cl21/cl21/blob/9c0403071aeb70cd6d7d52d3354bb42152c19edc/src/core/generic.lisp Although I don't think it is a good idea to make + generic.
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2014-11-09T19:58:13Z pjb: minion memo for stassats: *ı* don't do dots
2014-11-09T19:58:17Z pjb: minion: memo for stassats: *ı* don't do dots
2014-11-09T19:58:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-11-09T20:09:32Z pnpuff: hello pjb
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2014-11-09T20:28:34Z [6502]: true or false: if a symbol instance lookup resolves to the global environment once then it will always resolve to the global environment
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2014-11-09T20:36:18Z pjb: [6502]: what is a symbol instance lookup?
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2014-11-09T20:41:41Z [6502]: pjb: for example in (let ((x 42)) (funcall (lambda () x))) the `x` inside the lambda resolves to a local environment
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2014-11-09T20:43:46Z pjb: Try: (defvar *x* 42) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (print *x*)) :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*) (*x* . 33)))
2014-11-09T20:43:57Z pjb: Even better, try:
2014-11-09T20:44:01Z [6502]: pjb: a symbol resolving to a local environment may not always resolve to the same environment (e.g. a recursive function), but I'm thinking that if it's resolving to the global environment once then it will always resolve to the global environment
2014-11-09T20:44:24Z pjb: (defvar *x* 42) (let ((f  (lambda () (print *x*)))) (funcall f) (bt:make-thread f :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*) (*x* . 33))))
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2014-11-09T20:46:10Z [6502]: pjb: specials are special :-)
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2014-11-09T20:47:38Z pjb: [6502]: another questionable case, (without threads), would be with an interpreter: (setf (symbol-value '*z*) 42) (let ((*z* 33)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (prog1  *z* (proclaim '(special *z*)))) '(1 2)))
2014-11-09T20:47:49Z pjb: in ccl you get (33 33), in clisp you get (33 42).
2014-11-09T20:48:06Z pjb: [6502]: specials are only specials AFTER they've been declared so.
2014-11-09T20:48:17Z pjb: and not beyond.
2014-11-09T20:50:33Z pjb: [6502]: so the question is: what is a symbol instance lookup?
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2014-11-09T20:53:32Z pjb: Notice that in the case of (let ((x 42)) (funcall (lambda () x))) it can be compiled down to 42.
2014-11-09T20:53:51Z pjb: or down to (funcall (lambda () 42))
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2014-11-09T20:59:26Z [6502]: pjb: I was just thinking that while in (let ((x 42)) (lambda () ... x ...)) the `x` in the lambda can refer to different bindings at runtime, in case of a global it will always resolve to the same global
2014-11-09T21:00:11Z [6502]: pjb: so an interpreter could safely keep the address in case a lookup ends up in the global environment
2014-11-09T21:01:11Z pjb: It's the opposite.  In the case of special symbols, the resolution to the variable is performed each time when it is required.  In the case of non-special symbols, the resolution to the variable can be performed at compilation time, if there is one. (but if there is none (eg. in an interpreter) then there can still be several resolutions, as demonstrated by the example above in clisp).
2014-11-09T21:02:01Z pjb: For special symbols, this is the reason why (let ((*x* 42)) (lambda () *x*)) is redundant. It is the same as (lambda () *x*).
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2014-11-09T21:03:29Z Bike: maybe 6502 is thinking of closure construction
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2014-11-09T21:14:53Z [6502]: I'm just tinking that when looking up a symbol at runtime if the binding happens to be in the global environment then that specific lookup will always resolve to the same binding; an interpreter could replace the symbol with the address of the binding to avoid repeating the lookup
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2014-11-09T21:15:24Z [6502]: it's probably obvious, but I never thought about it before
2014-11-09T21:19:43Z pjb: Have you read my first example?
2014-11-09T21:19:47Z pjb: Have you tried to run it?
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2014-11-09T21:20:38Z |3b|: at compile time you determine if it is a reference to a special or lexical variable
2014-11-09T21:21:18Z pjb: [6502]: Actually, you don't even need threads:  (defvar *x* 33) (defvar *f* (lambda () *x*)) (list (let ((*x* 0)) (funcall *f*)) (let ((*x* 42)) (funcall *f*)))
2014-11-09T21:21:20Z |3b|: at runtime, a reference to a special variable depends on the caller whether it refers to the 'global' binding or a local (special) binding
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2014-11-09T21:21:49Z pjb: It doesn't depend on the caller.
2014-11-09T21:21:52Z |3b|: a particular reference can't change between lexical and special at runtime, and a lexical reference always refers to the lexical binding
2014-11-09T21:22:10Z pjb: It depends on the run-time environment WHEN the function with the references to special variables is called.
2014-11-09T21:22:12Z |3b|: pjb: if the caller binds the special, it refers to that binding. if it doesn't, it doesn't
2014-11-09T21:22:31Z pjb: |3b|: (defun g () (funcall *f*))  Do I need to continue?
2014-11-09T21:22:37Z |3b|: (assuming there isn't another binding in the called function where the reference is
2014-11-09T21:22:45Z pjb: I need.
2014-11-09T21:22:53Z |3b|: yeah
2014-11-09T21:23:00Z pjb: (list (let ((*x* 0)) (g)) (let ((*x* 42)) (g)))
2014-11-09T21:23:43Z |3b|: right, if G has a free reference to *X*, the binding it accesses depends on the caller
2014-11-09T21:23:54Z |3b|: 0 in first call, 42 in second
2014-11-09T21:24:05Z pjb: G has NO reference to *x*!
2014-11-09T21:24:31Z |3b| meant the entire call stack if that wasn't clear
2014-11-09T21:24:41Z pjb: This is totally unrelated to the caller!  THere is no test in the compiler (if (somethingp (caller this-function)) …) anywhere!
2014-11-09T21:24:56Z pjb: The only thing that matters is whether the symbol has been declared special.
2014-11-09T21:24:58Z |3b|: the behavior of the caller, not the identity
2014-11-09T21:25:26Z |3b|: if it is special, it also matters whether it has been bound locally or not
2014-11-09T21:25:52Z |3b| may be interpreting the original question differently from pjb though
2014-11-09T21:26:08Z pjb: |3b|: (defvar *h* (lambda () (declaim (special *z*)) *z*))  (list (let ((*z* 33)) (funcall *h*)) (funcall *h*))
2014-11-09T21:26:15Z [6502]: pjb: in the case without threads the address is the same. It's `let` that works differently for dynamic variables (it saves the current value and restores the value on exit)
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2014-11-09T21:26:25Z pjb: [6502]: no it is not.
2014-11-09T21:26:37Z pjb: let on a special symbol introduces a new dynamic variable.
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2014-11-09T21:27:17Z |3b|: [6502]: that is at best an implementation detail
2014-11-09T21:27:24Z pjb: Nope.
2014-11-09T21:27:29Z pjb: This is forced semantics!
2014-11-09T21:27:39Z pjb: The implementation has no choice here.
2014-11-09T21:27:43Z |3b|: pjb: can you tell the difference from conforming code?
2014-11-09T21:27:51Z |3b|: there isn't any way to get the address of a binding
2014-11-09T21:28:18Z pjb: You can with error handlers.
2014-11-09T21:28:49Z |3b|: can tell or can get address?
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2014-11-09T21:29:17Z pjb: Anyways, stop muddying the matter.
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2014-11-09T21:29:38Z |3b| will go away then
2014-11-09T21:30:44Z |3b|: (though feel free to explain how to tell the difference after you finish the original question if that's what you meant)
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2014-11-09T21:39:02Z pjb: |3b|: With strictly conforming code you cannot indeed make the difference (AFAIK), but in practice, you have debuggers and you have threads, and with either, you can evaluate at the same time expressions in the different dynamic environments.
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2014-11-09T21:40:18Z pjb: In anycase, the fact that the value of the dynamic variable is restored after the temporary let form, shows that several variable exist, even if the implementation makes the choice to swap addresses instead of variables.
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2014-11-09T21:46:46Z [6502]: looking at the machine code generated by sbcl seems that `(let ((*x* 99)) (bar))` when `*x*` is special indeed the current value (for current thread) is saved, overwritten with 99, and restored when leaving the let
2014-11-09T21:47:31Z [6502]: what is apparently strange is that a separate stack per thread dedicated to special vars is used, not the stack (that I'd think was the simplest solution)
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2014-11-09T21:50:27Z [6502]: actually is a stack of pairs (address/value) to restore on exit, but an explicit per-thread stack
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2014-11-09T21:53:13Z [6502]: may be it's related to the GC ... avoiding data addresses on the stack may be keeps things simpler
2014-11-09T21:53:19Z pjb: Sounds complicated.
2014-11-09T21:54:12Z pjb: Since the days of MacOS, I've become wary of saving/overwrite/restore.
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2014-11-09T22:40:15Z dim: what would you use to work with an MS SQL database server from CL? cl-mssql is a CFFI lib around freetds but is lacking quite some support for data types, and also needs a proper "map" API for resultsets that won't fit in memory
2014-11-09T22:40:46Z dim: maybe I could try plain-odbc
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2014-11-09T22:41:24Z dim: mmm, https://github.com/TheDarkTrumpet/cl-wordnet
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2014-11-09T22:44:59Z nyef: dim: First attempt, I'd try to not use MS SQL. Second, I'd probably attack either an ODBC driver or whatever COM object I can get my paws on...  Or there might be a wire-protocol level library somewhere.
2014-11-09T22:45:47Z dim: first, I'm using it so that its users can move from it: adding support for MS SQL as a source for pgloader
2014-11-09T22:45:57Z dim: then, I failed to find a wire-protocol driver
2014-11-09T22:46:14Z dim: so, I'm going to try with ODBC
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2014-11-09T22:46:36Z dim: it will make it easier to use on windows, apparently, too
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2014-11-09T22:46:59Z [6502]: for db conversion isn't better to use bulk-copy instead?
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2014-11-09T22:49:20Z dim: pgloader uses bulk-copy with the PostgreSQL copy protocol, yes
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2014-11-09T22:51:47Z dim: maybe I should just add the dozen lines of code I need in cl-mssql
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2014-11-09T22:53:59Z [6502]: dim: there are bcp export utilities for MS SQL too
2014-11-09T22:54:34Z dim: is there a document protocol I could use, from freetds maybe?
2014-11-09T22:55:13Z dim: http://www.freetds.org/tds.html#p7 -- mmm, promising, thanks for the hint
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2014-11-09T22:58:09Z [6502]: dim: I'd use just the bcp command and process the file
2014-11-09T22:58:13Z [6502] is very lazy
2014-11-09T22:58:48Z dim: pgloader streams the query result directly into a PostgreSQL COPY stream, without intermediate files
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