2014-11-07T00:03:33Z jasom: hmm, climacs doesn't crash on startup, that's promising...
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2014-11-07T00:54:47Z PuercoPop: jasom: iirc clx doesn't work on OS X maybe it was because of that?
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2014-11-07T00:56:22Z jasom: PuercoPop: was on linux
2014-11-07T00:56:28Z jasom: the demos seem to work now for me
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2014-11-07T01:06:25Z linux_dream: hello lisp coders I have a question about Maxima and similar programs
2014-11-07T01:06:53Z linux_dream: I am new to lisp and programming in general, I've started to read a book as suggested in this channel but so far I've never read about "compiling" and creating executables
2014-11-07T01:07:06Z linux_dream: then how come there is a Maxima executable if the code is in lisp?
2014-11-07T01:07:27Z linux_dream: how does one build an executable for lisp written programs?
2014-11-07T01:08:10Z wasamasa: lisp programmers don't speak of executables
2014-11-07T01:08:21Z wasamasa: they speak of lisp images which are a bit different
2014-11-07T01:09:36Z linux_dream: hmm but I do have an executable I believe
2014-11-07T01:09:42Z wasamasa: you can instruct a repl to dump its current state to a lisp image and exit
2014-11-07T01:09:45Z linux_dream: I have a file called maxima in /usr/bin
2014-11-07T01:09:54Z wasamasa: which is more flexible than creating an executable
2014-11-07T01:10:12Z wasamasa: whether this image contains compiled code or not is up to the implementation IIUC
2014-11-07T01:10:24Z linux_dream: ok thanks, I didn't know all of this
2014-11-07T01:11:00Z wasamasa: that way you can use states that are more than the program after it has loaded everything to run
2014-11-07T01:11:34Z wasamasa: that would allow you to run the image and attach a debugger to it
2014-11-07T01:11:53Z wasamasa: some commercial lisp implementations can turn the image to something less featureful and smaller
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2014-11-07T01:15:23Z PuercoPop: linux_dream: 'executables' are always OS specific. The story in CL isn't great for CL implementations except lispworks afaiu, but there is some stuff like cl-build and buildapp
2014-11-07T01:16:35Z jasom: PuercoPop: I strongly disagree; I've had no issues building executables without any of those tools
2014-11-07T01:18:25Z jasom: linux_dream: Every lisp implementation has its own way of doing executables
2014-11-07T01:18:38Z linux_dream: ok.  I think maxima is in common lisp
2014-11-07T01:18:45Z linux_dream: also I have another question about it
2014-11-07T01:18:56Z jasom: linux_dream: when the word "lisp" is used here, assume the speaker means "common lisp"
2014-11-07T01:19:10Z jasom: linux_dream: so every common lisp implementation has its own way of doing executables
2014-11-07T01:19:15Z linux_dream: sometimes to run a command, one must load a file in maxima with load(nameoffile)  , otherwise the command won't work.  Why aren't these files loaded by default?
2014-11-07T01:19:30Z linux_dream: ah ok jasom
2014-11-07T01:19:48Z jasom: linux_dream: for maxima specific questions, try #maxima
2014-11-07T01:19:52Z linux_dream: thx
2014-11-07T01:20:29Z jasom: linux_dream: also, most lisp implementations do compile to native code; unlike C and C++ they tend to not have a link stage though, just a compile and load stage
2014-11-07T01:21:14Z linux_dream: it's a bit over my head...
2014-11-07T01:21:38Z linux_dream: I know that I have to compile a program in c and c++ while with lisp I just type enter :)
2014-11-07T01:23:04Z jasom: linux_dream: it's definitely more complicated than that :) not too terribly complicated though.  When you compile and load lisp code, the compiled code is now in RAM.  You can dump it to disk to create an image; if you also include the core lisp executable in that image you have a standalone executable
2014-11-07T01:24:18Z linux_dream: ok. that's probably what they did for maxima then
2014-11-07T01:25:11Z linux_dream: when I download the source code and compile it, it probably does that, i.e. it creates an image on my disk with the lisp executable stuff in it
2014-11-07T01:25:18Z jasom: right
2014-11-07T01:26:07Z jasom: I know that ecl (and think that gcl) do it differently, they can compile to c style .o files and then link like a C program.
2014-11-07T01:27:45Z wasamasa: hmm
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2014-11-07T01:28:02Z jasom: There was an old lisp implementation called "Kyoto Common Lisp" and all implementations descended from that use the C-style linking; nearly all other implementations use the image dump style (though some include facilities to remove things from your image that are needed to build, but not run the program)
2014-11-07T01:28:02Z wasamasa: where would quicklisp save the compiled files from libraries it's using?
2014-11-07T01:28:12Z jasom: wasamasa: asdf does that
2014-11-07T01:28:30Z jasom: wasamasa: ~/.cache/common-lisp by default IIRC
2014-11-07T01:28:54Z wasamasa: jasom: ah, nice
2014-11-07T01:29:00Z wasamasa: jasom: there is indeed .fasl files
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2014-11-07T01:29:21Z jasom: something like ~/.cache/common-lisp/$IMPLEMENTATION_NAME/$ABS_PATH_TO_DOT_LISP_FILE
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2014-11-07T01:31:24Z tkd: ~xD
2014-11-07T01:32:09Z wasamasa: much better than stuff like tex or python littering files in the directory of the file they compile
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2014-11-07T01:32:46Z jasom: wasamasa: this is all Faré's doing
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2014-11-07T01:33:23Z jasom: He didn't write the asdf originally, but he polished the hell out of it.
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2014-11-07T01:33:47Z wasamasa: maybe I should poke him to go for XDG compliancy
2014-11-07T01:33:59Z jasom: wasamasa: where is it deficient?
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2014-11-07T01:34:33Z wasamasa: jasom: I expected these files to be in ~/.local/share
2014-11-07T01:34:41Z wasamasa: jasom: that's why I didn't find them I guess
2014-11-07T01:34:55Z jasom: $XDG_CACHE_HOME
2014-11-07T01:35:09Z jasom: " If $XDG_CACHE_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.cache should be used." <-- from the XDG spec
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2014-11-07T01:35:31Z jasom: and it's for "user specific non-essential data files"
2014-11-07T01:35:48Z wasamasa: k, then it should be fine the way it is
2014-11-07T01:36:32Z jasom: asdf is supposed to follow the XDG base directory spec for configuration, data, and output caches, so if you do find something wrong it's abug
2014-11-07T01:37:53Z jasom: but I don't think asdf stores anything in XDG_DATA_HOME at the moment
2014-11-07T01:38:47Z jasom: oh, I'm wrong it uses that as the default source registry
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2014-11-07T03:09:51Z hello: Is there any lisp package to process video?
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2014-11-07T03:29:19Z Adlai: just barely offtopic: any suggestions for making the python bytecode-interpreter/compiler hybrid abomination a bit slimeier?
2014-11-07T03:29:26Z Adlai has to use it a fair amount for a project
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2014-11-07T03:30:18Z Adlai is also asking in #python, but thought people here are likelier to understand the kind of "IDE" he's seeking
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2014-11-07T03:48:23Z faheem_: Hi. Added a asd project to :~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/, namely ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/gitfiles
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2014-11-07T03:49:00Z faheem_: I then tried to do (ql:quickload "gitfiles") but I get
2014-11-07T03:49:05Z faheem_: System "gitfiles" not found
2014-11-07T03:49:05Z faheem_:    [Condition of type QUICKLISP-CLIENT:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND]
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2014-11-07T03:49:24Z faheem_: what am i missing? this project has an asd file
2014-11-07T03:49:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-07T03:50:00Z faheem_: Namely ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/gitfiles/gitfiles.asd
2014-11-07T03:50:08Z faheem_: beach: you don't leave a client idling?
2014-11-07T03:50:30Z beach: Give me some context!
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2014-11-07T03:50:44Z faheem_: beach: i meant irc client. in this channel
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2014-11-07T03:51:18Z beach: I sign out, if that's what you mean.  Because I put my computer in suspend mode.
2014-11-07T03:51:33Z faheem_: beach: oh, i see.
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2014-11-07T03:53:48Z faheem_: beach: quick question about quicklisp - put a project in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/gitfiles, but ql does not find it
2014-11-07T03:54:06Z faheem_: (ql:quickload "gitfiles") gives System "gitfiles" not found
2014-11-07T03:54:23Z faheem_: asd file is ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/gitfiles/gitfiles.asd
2014-11-07T03:54:30Z beach: I think I am the wrong person to ask about that.
2014-11-07T03:54:35Z faheem_: beach: ok
2014-11-07T03:55:08Z beach: I still keep my projects elsewhere and put directories in *central-registry*.
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2014-11-07T03:55:30Z faheem_: beach: oh, what OS?
2014-11-07T03:55:46Z beach: Me? Ubuntu GNU/Linux.
2014-11-07T03:56:17Z beach: I use Quicklisp, of course, but only to install other people's projects.
2014-11-07T03:56:23Z faheem_: beach: ok
2014-11-07T03:58:40Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2014-11-07T03:59:51Z pillton: faheem_: I think you put your own projects in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/.
2014-11-07T04:00:12Z pillton: I do what beach does personally.
2014-11-07T04:00:18Z faheem_: pillton: oh. is that documented?
2014-11-07T04:00:46Z pillton: faheem_: I'm not sure. Xach is normally pretty good with stuff like that.
2014-11-07T04:01:04Z faheem_: pillton: i could also add paths to the central registry
2014-11-07T04:01:15Z faheem_: i was using /usr/local/share/common-lisp for a bit, is that ok?
2014-11-07T04:01:35Z pillton: Do other people use your computer?
2014-11-07T04:01:45Z faheem_: I think it suffices to put an entry in /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d, right?
2014-11-07T04:01:47Z faheem_: pillton: no
2014-11-07T04:02:43Z pillton: I use *central-registry* and ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/
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2014-11-07T04:13:02Z faheem_: pillton: i see. what is a good location? is /usr/local/share/common-lisp reasonable?
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2014-11-07T04:14:59Z pillton: Well, it is subjective. I am of the view that if it is yours then it should go in ${HOME}.
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2014-11-07T04:15:26Z beach: faheem_: For your own projects?
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2014-11-07T04:16:00Z pillton: I have ~/contrib, ~/Programming, ~/Reports and ~/Papers.
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2014-11-07T04:16:16Z beach: I use ~/Lisp/My-projects/GITified ~/Lisp/My-projects/Others ~/Lisp/Other-peoples-projects/
2014-11-07T04:16:39Z faheem_: Ah, ok. I tend to use /usr/local/src for stuff.
2014-11-07T04:16:44Z faheem_: source stuff, that is
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2014-11-07T04:16:50Z Quadresce: ~/Source/My ~/Source/Foreign ~/Source/$COMPANY-NAME
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2014-11-07T04:17:04Z faheem_: all home directories then
2014-11-07T04:17:26Z faheem_: i've got /usr/local/src as a separate LV/filesystem
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2014-11-07T04:19:16Z faheem_: I added /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/04-localinstall.conf with the contents
2014-11-07T04:19:32Z faheem_: (:directory  #p"/usr/local/share/common-lisp/")
2014-11-07T04:19:59Z faheem_: but (ql:quickload "gitfiles") still does not work
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2014-11-07T04:22:43Z faheem_: hmm, using (require)  used to work, at least on sbcl, but not now
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2014-11-07T04:24:22Z faheem_: oh, it is just that it cannot find the path
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2014-11-07T04:34:48Z faheem_: Maybe some necesary syntax is missing for this gitfiles asd file? it has
2014-11-07T04:34:54Z faheem_: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cnZA6GBA
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2014-11-07T04:42:07Z faheem_: ok, looks like quicklisp/local-projects works
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2014-11-07T05:26:12Z beach: I need some help thinking through some design.  I want to create a SICL-like environment in some host, say SBCL.  I already defined a HIR interpreter, but in fact it is a compiler, because it translates the instruction graph to a host TAGBODY.  It uses the host runtime environment (lookup of dynamic variables and catch tags).  Non-local control transfer is done by the host.
2014-11-07T05:26:32Z beach: Now I want to define a target runtime environment, so I have to do it differently.
2014-11-07T05:27:22Z beach: I am thinking this: Use the host stack as usual, but for the runtime environment, use a list of entries contained in some host dynamic variable, say *RTE*.
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2014-11-07T05:29:02Z beach: A lexical non-local transfer would be done like this: The static runtime environment contains a host thunk that does (GO <label>).  When the target code wants to do GO, it looks up the thunk and invokes it.
2014-11-07T05:29:29Z beach: [unless the GO is local, in which case it just does a GO]
2014-11-07T05:31:14Z beach: Adding to the target runtime environment is done by binding *RTE* to an augmented list of entries, and executing some function in the new environment.
2014-11-07T05:31:51Z beach: Is there something that won't work if I do it this way?
2014-11-07T05:32:13Z beach: I would prefer this solution to an interpreter, because it is going to be reasonably fast.
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2014-11-07T05:43:08Z beach guesses that his explanation was substandard. 
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2014-11-07T05:52:28Z jasom: beach: that seems sane; you rely on the host for gc?
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2014-11-07T05:55:04Z beach: Yes, I will use host data.
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2014-11-07T05:55:24Z beach: jasom: Thanks!
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2014-11-07T05:57:09Z beach: There might still be some complications, but I think I'll start implementing something using this idea.  We'll see how far I get.
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2014-11-07T06:00:26Z drmeister: beach - Hi, I've loaded the asdf system :cleavir-environment into clasp.
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2014-11-07T06:16:22Z drmeister: General question: When ASDF:load-system is run - it generates a fasl file for every compiled common lisp source file - correct?  There isn't any kind of linking of fasl files into one fasl file or image file is there?
2014-11-07T06:18:39Z drmeister: I expected ASDF to compile multiple source files in one compilation unit and somehow generate one fasl file wherein functions from one source file can be inlined in other source files.  I don't see that.
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2014-11-07T06:19:46Z drmeister: I guess I was expecting ASDF to compile multiple source files and then link them together - although I realize that there is no concept of "linking" in the CLHS.
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2014-11-07T06:22:22Z drmeister: ASDF has the CREATE-IMAGE function that I believe does this - but it's not clear that it is being invoked when I invoke ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM
2014-11-07T06:22:27Z beach: drmeister: That would be contrary to normal semantics.
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2014-11-07T06:22:52Z drmeister: beach: Which?  The linking of multiple fasl files?
2014-11-07T06:23:09Z beach: drmeister: For instance, if one file defines a class at compile time and the second one instantiates it also at compile time.
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2014-11-07T06:23:48Z beach: It has to be done so that each file is loaded after it is compiled.
2014-11-07T06:24:47Z beach: I meant, the first file defines a class to be created at load time, and the second file instantiates the class at compile time.
2014-11-07T06:25:00Z beach: So the first file must be loaded before the second one is compiled.
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2014-11-07T06:27:44Z drmeister: I see that would be a problem.
2014-11-07T06:28:53Z drmeister: What does asdf:load-system do?  Does it create a list of source files to compile-file and then compile and load each fasl in order?
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2014-11-07T06:29:32Z beach: I think that's correct, yes.
2014-11-07T06:31:49Z jasom: drmeister: asdf can join FASLs, I don't recall the name of that operation though
2014-11-07T06:32:03Z jasom: drmeister: the default behavior is just load each fasl individually
2014-11-07T06:32:12Z drmeister: It appears to compile-file everything every time I use asdf:load-system - am I doing this wrong?  Should I be using asdf:load-system to build the system once and then something else to load the built system?
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2014-11-07T06:32:27Z Zhivago: Doesn't create image load everything, and then dump a system image?
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2014-11-07T06:33:25Z beach: drmeister: Your method ought to work.  It should recognize that the FASL file is newer than the source and not recompile.
2014-11-07T06:34:09Z jasom: drmeister: it ought-not compile-file each time
2014-11-07T06:34:30Z beach: Though if your source files have dates in the future, maybe you will get that effect.
2014-11-07T06:34:32Z drmeister: Zhivago: ECL, MKCL and Clasp have CREATE-IMAGE.  SBCL and other lisps use DUMP-IMAGE.   I think DUMP-IMAGE dumps the current running image.   CREATE-IMAGE is more analogous to using "ld" to link object files together.
2014-11-07T06:34:35Z jasom: Zhivago: it creates an image; IIRC it has special behavior for ecl and gcl which don't dump system images in the typical manner
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2014-11-07T06:35:45Z jasom: Zhivago: sorry, that's image-op which will internally use create-image or dump-image
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2014-11-07T06:36:32Z drmeister: beach: I see - so asdf should only run compile-file when source files are updated.
2014-11-07T06:36:59Z beach: Yes, and then only the ones that need to be recompiled because of the dependencies.
2014-11-07T06:37:03Z drmeister: tristras is a bot
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2014-11-07T06:37:47Z drmeister: beach: Ok, kind of like make.  But in normal operation with ASDF there is no "linking" stage
2014-11-07T06:38:56Z drmeister: Ok, for some reason ASDF in Clasp is recompiling everything every time I use asdf:load-system.  There might be an issue with file modification times.
2014-11-07T06:39:12Z jasom: drmeister: load-system doesn't do any linking, use compile-bundle-op or load-bundle-op if you want them linked
2014-11-07T06:39:33Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, if your source files have dates in the future, you might observe that effect.
2014-11-07T06:39:41Z drmeister: What is the difference between compile-bundle-op and load-bundle-op?
2014-11-07T06:39:58Z jasom: drmeister: compile-bundle-op generates a fasl
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2014-11-07T06:40:09Z drmeister: beach: The source files are from SICL - I'll check if they are in the future.
2014-11-07T06:40:31Z beach: Or the date of your system might be wrong.
2014-11-07T06:40:49Z drmeister: My system date: Fri Nov  7 01:40:37 EST 2014
2014-11-07T06:40:59Z drmeister: Past my bed time.
2014-11-07T06:42:48Z drmeister: The dates on the source files and fasl (.bundle) files look fine.
2014-11-07T06:42:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2Pu6BqGP
2014-11-07T06:44:07Z beach: I shall have to look at that later.  My computer is acting up, so I need to reboot.
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2014-11-07T06:45:15Z drmeister: No problem.   I just verified that on SBCL (ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM :cleavir-environment) only builds the system once.
2014-11-07T06:45:33Z drmeister: Subsequent calls to asdf:load-system return immediately.
2014-11-07T06:46:44Z drmeister: In Clasp, calls to asdf:load-system build the system every time I invoke it.
2014-11-07T06:47:05Z drmeister: I don't like differences in behavior
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2014-11-07T06:48:20Z drmeister: jasom: And does load-bundle-op just load the fasl generated by compile-bundle-op?
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2014-11-07T06:57:04Z drmeister: How do I invoke "compile-bundle-op"? - I recall there was some old weird way of invoking asdf functions but the documentation is not giving it to me.
2014-11-07T06:57:22Z jasom: drmeister: (asdf:operate 'asdf:compile-bundle-op :system-name)
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2014-11-07T06:57:35Z drmeister: Right asdf:operate - thank you.
2014-11-07T06:58:12Z jasom: and monolithic-compile-bundle-op will include the dependencies
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2014-11-07T07:00:54Z drmeister: Hmmm,  I get an error:  "Circular dependency"
2014-11-07T07:00:57Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XbCDvC7u
2014-11-07T07:03:12Z drmeister: Well, it's not a high priority that compile-bundle-op work for me right now.
2014-11-07T07:03:33Z drmeister: I'm more concerned about asdf rebuilding everything when I use load-system - I'll need to figure out why and fix it.
2014-11-07T07:04:33Z jasom: if you have a circular dependency that might explain it
2014-11-07T07:04:44Z jasom: care to share your asd files?
2014-11-07T07:06:03Z drmeister: jasom: It's beach's SICL repo.
2014-11-07T07:06:10Z jasom: hmm
2014-11-07T07:06:23Z drmeister: I'm loading SICL/Code/Cleavir/cleavir-environment.asd
2014-11-07T07:06:31Z jasom: did you try a simpler asdf system?
2014-11-07T07:06:31Z drmeister: Right.
2014-11-07T07:06:41Z drmeister: Alexandria worked fine.
2014-11-07T07:07:01Z drmeister: I'm used to dealing with multiple problems at the same time.
2014-11-07T07:07:07Z jasom: hmmm
2014-11-07T07:07:51Z drmeister: This is the start of my quest in integrate Cleavir into Clasp's compiler.
2014-11-07T07:08:11Z drmeister: I have ASDF working (somewhat) and I was able to load some simple systems.
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2014-11-07T07:08:45Z drmeister: I didn't test it thoroughly.
2014-11-07T07:09:33Z drmeister: Now I'm trying to load the :cleavir-environment system and I can see more problems.   I'll probably have to spend a few days mucking about with the innards of ASDF to figure out what's going on.
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2014-11-07T07:11:22Z drmeister: If I could bypass ASDF and LOAD the parts of Cleavir that I need I would do that for now.  I'd rather debug ASDF when I have a faster system to work with - but beach has Cleavir configured using ASDF - which is a very reasonable thing to do.
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2014-11-07T07:12:55Z drmeister: So I've spent many hours working on getting ASDF to work in Clasp - I have to ensure that ASDF works with Clasp anyway to achieve a conformant Common Lisp system.
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2014-11-07T07:14:18Z drmeister: A couple of weeks ago I asked if there was a way to get ASDF to give up the list of source files that are part of a system - someone offered up the command that did that - does anyone remember what it was?   I can't find it in my notes.
2014-11-07T07:15:22Z drmeister: I wish I ran into Fare more often on #lisp.
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2014-11-07T07:16:24Z drmeister: It would be nice if I didn't have to bang my head against every d*mn problem.
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2014-11-07T07:17:06Z drmeister: I really appreciate people's advice and assistance.
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2014-11-07T08:07:23Z Grue`: drmeister: it ws something like (asdf/plan:plan-actions (asdf/plan:make-plan nil 'asdf:load-op :system-foo))
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2014-11-07T08:37:32Z PuercoPop: capitaomorte: here? I wanted to ask you about channels and a listeners in sly. IIUC a channel is just a message queue over slynk send/recieve and Listeners are for 'presentations'/UI
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2014-11-07T08:50:27Z ecraven: I'm trying to run commonQT via SLIME on linux, however a often get "QApplication::exec: Must be called from the main thread". Is there a way to force SLIME to run this on a certain thread?
2014-11-07T08:51:11Z p_l: ecraven: yes. There's some macro, I think part of bordeaux-threads, possibly there's something in CommonQT as well, to force running on specified thread
2014-11-07T08:51:17Z Shinmera: Which implementation are you on? I've never seen that happen unless I explicitly worked with threads.
2014-11-07T08:51:20Z p_l: can't recall right now what it was
2014-11-07T08:51:42Z ecraven: SBCL, I'm compile-and-load'ing the code, no system, just a single file with one package
2014-11-07T08:51:44Z p_l: Shinmera: SLIME will implicitly start threads on thread-capable implementations
2014-11-07T08:52:12Z Shinmera: p_l: Right, I've still never had it happen to me, which is why I'm wondering what's going differently.
2014-11-07T08:52:21Z ecraven: p_l: pasting everything in the repl window might work though, right? that should always be the same thread?
2014-11-07T08:52:30Z Shinmera: Also can someone kill tristras, it's a spambot.
2014-11-07T08:54:10Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-11-07T08:54:27Z Shinmera: Thanks
2014-11-07T08:54:35Z p_l has set mode +b $r:tristras
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2014-11-07T08:56:55Z Shinmera: ecraven: I'm not sure what exactly you're doing. When I work with CQt apps I have a main window that I initialize and show with a single function. Everything else gets called from the window out, which ensures that things always happen in the same thread.
2014-11-07T08:57:44Z Bike: in a threaded slime, the repl thread isn't the main process thread
2014-11-07T08:57:57Z Bike: and neither is wherever code is compile-loaded into, i don't think
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2014-11-07T10:18:24Z dim: Xach: re your idea of writing about CL packages and put them in a good light, I think the following might give you at least food for thoughs if not another angle at it: http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-May/058768.html
2014-11-07T10:18:45Z ecraven: stassats: greetings :) are you the author/maintainer of commonQT?
2014-11-07T10:18:53Z stassats: am
2014-11-07T10:19:21Z ecraven: I'm trying to work through the qt tutorials in CL, would you be interested in the results, to put them online?
2014-11-07T10:19:51Z stassats: well, what do you need me for?
2014-11-07T10:20:03Z stassats: put them on your blog or something
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2014-11-07T10:20:33Z ecraven: I thought they might be useful near the t14.lisp version. but ok, I'll put them somewhere else :)
2014-11-07T10:21:03Z Grue`: dim: the idea of all functions in the world being in the same namespace sounds like a bad idea to me
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2014-11-07T10:22:04Z dim: well I don't think he's though of namespaces much, or implicetly only, Erlang modules being more like systems + namespaces
2014-11-07T10:22:17Z stassats: ecraven: if the results are good, it can always be included
2014-11-07T10:22:19Z dim: also no namespace is what elisp is doing
2014-11-07T10:22:28Z stassats: or linked from the site, etc.
2014-11-07T10:22:51Z H4ns: dim: you are not saying that this would be a good idea, or do you?
2014-11-07T10:22:58Z Grue`: elisp should add namespaces imo
2014-11-07T10:23:04Z dim: H4ns: I am not
2014-11-07T10:23:10Z H4ns: phew
2014-11-07T10:23:20Z H4ns: elisp should die in a fire :D
2014-11-07T10:24:14Z dim: H4ns: I am saying this put some interesting light into the choice of CL namespaces to be completely orthogonal to where to read the source from
2014-11-07T10:24:49Z dim: whereas in most systems I know of (python, Erlang, Java, even C and C++ to some extend) the notion of package and namespace are always intertwinned with where to read the source code on-disk
2014-11-07T10:25:19Z dim: in CL it strikes me as feasible to write an ASDF (say) facility to fetch the code from a database or anything really
2014-11-07T10:25:27Z dim: without loosing the namespaces
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2014-11-07T10:25:47Z H4ns: CL is from before the time when file systems were considered an "appropriate" name space providing mechanism
2014-11-07T10:25:54Z H4ns: ahh, those glory days.
2014-11-07T10:26:11Z dim: I'm quite happy that I get to know about them without having to actually live through them ;-)
2014-11-07T10:30:19Z ecraven: stassats: under 64 bit linux, using SLIME, should I run into qt-on-main-thread problems? it seems that sometimes compile-and-load and then executing (main) at the repl works, sometimes it doesn't. is there a way to fix this?
2014-11-07T10:30:58Z stassats: just always run qt on the same thread
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2014-11-07T10:32:27Z ecraven: stassats: how do I do that under slime?
2014-11-07T10:33:21Z stassats: don't run from C-x C-e or C-c C-c
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2014-11-07T11:09:19Z joncol: Could someone explain what (define ((x n)) ...) means? What's the meaning of the double-parentheses?
2014-11-07T11:09:35Z joncol: In the context of:
2014-11-07T11:09:44Z joncol: (define (nats)
2014-11-07T11:09:50Z joncol:   (define ((from n))
2014-11-07T11:09:58Z joncol:     (cons n (from (+ n 1))))
2014-11-07T11:10:02Z joncol:   ((from 1)))
2014-11-07T11:10:07Z chu: Scheme?
2014-11-07T11:10:09Z ggole: joncol: you should probably ask in #scheme
2014-11-07T11:10:17Z joncol: OK :/
2014-11-07T11:10:18Z joncol: Racket
2014-11-07T11:10:28Z ggole: Or #racket, if that's a thing
2014-11-07T11:10:34Z joncol: I thought Racket was more or less like Lisp?
2014-11-07T11:11:07Z ggole: There are significant differences as well as similarities.
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2014-11-07T11:16:25Z dim: lisp is a family wherein you will find Common Lisp and Scheme and Racket an Emacs Lisp and plenty others (Clojure, etc), #lisp is only about Common Lisp
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2014-11-07T11:31:15Z joncol: Isn't the above valid lisp?
2014-11-07T11:31:52Z chu: Which lisp?
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2014-11-07T11:32:53Z alpha-: joncol it probably is
2014-11-07T11:33:15Z alpha-: it's just probably not the kind of lisp that is on topic here
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2014-11-07T11:33:45Z alpha-: I'm sure the racket people have a channel where they will help you in great detail
2014-11-07T11:35:10Z joncol: Yes, I found out the answer. Just curious about the diff between lisp and racket.
2014-11-07T11:36:05Z alpha-: joncol you are asking about a difference between an apple tree and a tree
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2014-11-07T11:39:28Z stassats: common lisp and racket are completely different languages
2014-11-07T11:39:41Z stassats: they both have parenthesis, but that's about it
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2014-11-07T12:00:27Z jussss: how to write a dsl with macro? is there a example?
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2014-11-07T12:20:43Z eudoxia: ah, nothing like watching packages recompiling after a Quicklisp update in the morning
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2014-11-07T12:34:13Z Xach: faheem_: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html under "Can I load a local project"
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2014-11-07T13:19:26Z faheem_: Xach: thanks
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2014-11-07T13:31:26Z wasamasa: joncol: ##lisp is more general than #lisp
2014-11-07T13:31:55Z wasamasa: joncol: and open to discussion of pretty much any sufficiently lisp-like languages
2014-11-07T13:34:16Z chrnybo: Xach: Are any of the schemes (deflate, zlib, gzip) of your comoression library salza2 flushable?
2014-11-07T13:34:26Z chrnybo: *compression
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2014-11-07T13:40:23Z faheem_: is the variable asdf:*central-registry* supposed to be readable in global scope?
2014-11-07T13:40:29Z faheem_: I'm getting an error here
2014-11-07T13:40:50Z H4ns: faheem_: what do you mean by "readable in global scope"?
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2014-11-07T13:41:06Z chu: I think you should require asdf first
2014-11-07T13:41:56Z faheem_: chu: oh, i did
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2014-11-07T13:42:09Z faheem_: H4ns: meaning it should return a value
2014-11-07T13:42:25Z H4ns: faheem_: a variable is "bound", it does not "return a value"
2014-11-07T13:42:38Z faheem_: never mind, I was calling it incorrectly. sigh
2014-11-07T13:42:39Z H4ns: faheem_: it should be bound if asdf is loaded, yes.
2014-11-07T13:42:49Z H4ns: faheem_: a variable is not "called" either
2014-11-07T13:42:53Z faheem_: H4ns: i stand corrected
2014-11-07T13:42:54Z H4ns: *sigh*
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2014-11-07T13:44:30Z faheem_: It used to be the case that the directories under /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d were loaded into *central-registry* (I think). doesn't seem to be happening now.
2014-11-07T13:45:01Z faheem_: I'm now just getting -> (#P"/home/faheem/quicklisp/quicklisp/")
2014-11-07T13:45:01Z faheem_: as the value
2014-11-07T13:45:18Z dim: (asdf:initialize-source-registry)
2014-11-07T13:45:42Z dim: that reads your source-registry.conf.d again
2014-11-07T13:45:54Z faheem_: dim: makes no difference.
2014-11-07T13:46:18Z faheem_: how does asdf know to look there, anyway?
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2014-11-07T13:46:54Z dim: oh, and I have ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ btw
2014-11-07T13:47:02Z dim: not /etc anything
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2014-11-07T13:47:56Z faheem_: dim: right. same question - how does asdf know to look there?
2014-11-07T13:48:24Z dim: I don't know, time for you to read asdf docs and code?
2014-11-07T13:48:57Z faheem_: dim: i think i did. once.
2014-11-07T13:49:07Z faheem_: didn't really clarify it for me.
2014-11-07T13:49:40Z faheem_: the docs, anyway
2014-11-07T13:49:51Z Xach: chrnybo: what does flushable mean?
2014-11-07T13:50:19Z Xach: faheem_: it was never the case that those directories were loaded into *central-registry*
2014-11-07T13:50:35Z Xach: faheem_: nothing built into asdf sets anything in asdf:*central-registry*
2014-11-07T13:50:36Z stassats: why does asdf usurps the common-lisp directory? now i can't have a source-registry.conf.d for mk-defsystem
2014-11-07T13:50:44Z dim: oh I misread what faheem_ said
2014-11-07T13:51:14Z dim: faheem_: you can have ASDF configuration files in that place
2014-11-07T13:51:20Z dim: faheem_: go read the docs
2014-11-07T13:51:35Z Xach: that is a particularly hostile thing to suggest with asdf
2014-11-07T13:51:56Z Xach: it is difficult to synthesize a correct configuration from reading the documentation.
2014-11-07T13:52:05Z dim: mmm, ok, fair enough, won't do it again
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2014-11-07T13:54:12Z Xach: faheem_: the directories where config files are found are baked into asdf.
2014-11-07T13:55:01Z H4ns: that sucks, but it runs on genera, doesn't it?
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2014-11-07T13:58:29Z dim: common lisp all the way down!
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2014-11-07T13:59:40Z Xach: I take that back. It follows this: http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
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2014-11-07T14:00:14Z Xach: The manual has improved since the last time I checked, there are more examples of common uses.
2014-11-07T14:00:18Z schjetne: What runs on Genera? Quicklisp?
2014-11-07T14:00:20Z Xach: Hooray!
2014-11-07T14:00:26Z Xach: schjetne: asdf, maybe
2014-11-07T14:00:33Z schjetne: ah
2014-11-07T14:00:53Z dim: Genera has users?
2014-11-07T14:00:58Z Xach: it has code conditionalized for the quirks of Common Lisp on Genera, anyway
2014-11-07T14:01:14Z schjetne: It would be cool to try to run my company's product on Genera, to see if it works.
2014-11-07T14:01:36Z schjetne: Maybe I can convince finances guy to buy a 3600 for the office
2014-11-07T14:02:21Z Xach: a macbook might be easier on the power consumption
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2014-11-07T14:02:47Z Xach: and a jillion times faster, even emulated
2014-11-07T14:03:22Z H4ns: i'm interested in a company where one can talk the finances guy into buying 3600s for the office.
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2014-11-07T14:03:29Z H4ns: or maybe i'm not. :D
2014-11-07T14:04:52Z schjetne: Companies buy a lot of pointless stuff. A LispM would be one of the more sensible pointless things, but then again I'm biased in the matter.
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2014-11-07T14:05:35Z H4ns: as sensible as buying a vintage sports car would be a sensible thing to buy for an auto mechanics shop.
2014-11-07T14:05:47Z chrnybo: Xach: By flushable I mean that at any point you may ask your gzip output stream to empty its sink.  I picked up the term from https://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/api/org/apache/coyote/http11/filters/FlushableGZIPOutputStream.html
2014-11-07T14:06:45Z schjetne: H4ns: or at least owners of auto shops owning classic cars
2014-11-07T14:06:56Z Xach: chrnybo: hmm, i don't think salza2 supports that, but i'm not sure.
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2014-11-07T14:08:25Z Xach: chrnybo: i'm not sure because maybe it just works without any extra intentional effort on my part. i didn't think about flushing when making things.
2014-11-07T14:08:36Z chrnybo: Xach: In http, as far as I understand, the output stream itself is compressed, and only after that, it is divided into chunks.  Therefore I imagine that in order to combine compression and chunking, the compression library would have to deliver as much as it has buffered at the moment to the chunking mechanism.
2014-11-07T14:09:07Z pjb: -
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2014-11-07T14:09:52Z Xach: chrnybo: hmm. salza is used with callbacks that recieve a buffer and start and end indexes when some amount of compressed data is available
2014-11-07T14:10:23Z Xach: that seems like a natural fit for chunking, but maybe it's insufficient
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2014-11-07T14:12:39Z Xach: yeah, probably.
2014-11-07T14:12:40Z drmeister: Could someone remind me what the function is to get the last modification time of a file?
2014-11-07T14:12:59Z Xach: drmeister: file-write-date is a portable thing that might do what you want
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2014-11-07T14:14:01Z chrnybo: Xach: I'll try to make it chunk later, then.
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2014-11-07T14:15:35Z drmeister: file-write-date - that's the one.   I was looking for a bunch of other keywords and didn't think of "date"
2014-11-07T14:15:59Z stassats: it's a misnomer
2014-11-07T14:16:15Z stassats: it really should have been file-write-time
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2014-11-07T14:16:52Z schjetne: Who's someone?
2014-11-07T14:17:09Z chu: He's pretty impressive. Much knowledge.
2014-11-07T14:17:58Z stassats: schjetne: someone without notifications for mentions
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2014-11-07T14:21:41Z drmeister: Xach: Thanks - I'm trying to figure out why ASDF on Clasp keeps rebuilding systems every time I invoke asdf:load-system
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2014-11-07T14:24:00Z Xach: in ye olden times that was sometimes from NFS!
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2014-11-07T14:26:31Z drmeister: Xach: Was that directed at me?   Are you saying that in the olden days you would see this sort of behavior when using Network File System?
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2014-11-07T14:27:38Z Xach: drmeister: yes, because of clock differences between the server and client.
2014-11-07T14:27:48Z Xach: drmeister: less common now that nfs is uncommon and ntp is common.
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2014-11-07T14:30:24Z jasom: Xach: at one point the NT domain time servers and the linux NTP pool got 10s off at my company.  Networked builds were *not* pleasant
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2014-11-07T14:31:11Z Xach: eeevil
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2014-11-07T14:35:56Z drmeister: Clasps file-write-date seems to be ok.
2014-11-07T14:36:15Z stassats: and get-universal-time?
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2014-11-07T14:36:31Z drmeister: It's giving different big numbers for files with different write times
2014-11-07T14:36:48Z drmeister: stassats: I'll check
2014-11-07T14:36:59Z Xach: check the big numbers with decode-universal-time for sanity
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2014-11-07T14:47:15Z drmeister: Yes, get-universal-time works and decode-universal-time works.
2014-11-07T14:47:52Z drmeister: (file-write-date #P"/Users/meister/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-clasp-mps-b628ecd30776f0b38bb6ba8e35877b23612b062d-macosx/Users/meister/Development/SICL/Code/Cleavir/Environment/query.bundle") --> 3624360236
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2014-11-07T14:48:07Z drmeister: (file-write-date #P"/Users/meister/Development/SICL/Code/Cleavir/Environment/query.lisp") --> 3623274250
2014-11-07T14:48:50Z drmeister: So the file-write-date of the product "query.bundle" (the fasl file) is later than that of "query.lisp" (the source file)
2014-11-07T14:49:36Z drmeister: That suggests the problem is more pernicious
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2014-11-07T14:51:26Z stassats: so, is > working?
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2014-11-07T14:53:51Z drmeister: Yeah:   (> 2 1)  --> T      that would be remarkable if it didn't
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2014-11-07T14:54:38Z drmeister: asdf:load-system does throw up a lot of warnings.   Some are llvm warnings that I understand and will fix - they aren't relevant -   The worrying ones are from ASDF.
2014-11-07T14:54:46Z stassats: working with compilers, the most trivial things get broken
2014-11-07T14:54:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zlek7Ivh
2014-11-07T14:55:09Z drmeister: Oh yea
2014-11-07T14:55:56Z drmeister: It's these warnings that concern me:
2014-11-07T14:56:00Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SCbjYBMG
2014-11-07T14:56:17Z stassats: do you produce .o files?
2014-11-07T14:56:34Z stassats: if not, then you shouldn't pretend to be ECL before ASDF
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2014-11-07T15:01:38Z faheem_: Xach: thanks for the comments.
2014-11-07T15:01:57Z faheem_: Maybe I should be more explicit wrt what I'm having trouble with
2014-11-07T15:02:37Z faheem_: There are locations listed in files under /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d
2014-11-07T15:03:12Z faheem_: those are (I believe) locations where asdf (and therefore quicklisp should look for software)
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2014-11-07T15:03:35Z faheem_: except it does not seem to be looking there. unless i am doing something wrong, of course.
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2014-11-07T15:05:27Z Xach: faheem_: what syntax do those files have?
2014-11-07T15:06:29Z faheem_: Xach: (:directory #p"/usr/share/common-lisp/clbuild/systems/") <- 03-clbuild.conf
2014-11-07T15:07:16Z faheem_: (:directory  #p"/usr/local/share/common-lisp/") <- 04-localinstall.conf  ;;(created by me)
2014-11-07T15:07:54Z faheem_: i tried putting something in the latter directory. it doesn't seem to see it, but I remember it working before.
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2014-11-07T15:08:10Z faheem_: before == approx 2012, maybe 2013
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2014-11-07T15:08:48Z faheem_: Is it possible to ask asdf at runtime where it is looking
2014-11-07T15:08:48Z faheem_: ?
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2014-11-07T15:14:19Z Xach: hmm
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2014-11-07T15:21:41Z Xach: faheem_: what did you put in the latter directory?
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2014-11-07T15:23:00Z faheem_: Xach: a couple of small projects. one of them a dummy
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2014-11-07T15:23:47Z Xach: faheem_: Can you be more specific? Did you put project folders there, or project source and system files?
2014-11-07T15:24:04Z faheem_: Xach: sure. one sec.
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2014-11-07T15:26:31Z faheem_: One of these is:
2014-11-07T15:26:36Z faheem_: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JyMwsC51
2014-11-07T15:26:45Z faheem_: The files foobar.asd is
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2014-11-07T15:27:07Z faheem_: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ebb7NXtr
2014-11-07T15:27:23Z Xach: faheem_: I don't think the :directory option looks in subdirectories. it would only look exactly in /usr/local/share/common-lisp/
2014-11-07T15:27:31Z Xach: faheem_: I think :tree is what you want instead
2014-11-07T15:27:36Z faheem_: Xach: oh
2014-11-07T15:27:47Z faheem_: :tree?
2014-11-07T15:28:19Z faheem_: Oh, instead of :directory?
2014-11-07T15:28:21Z Xach: Yes.
2014-11-07T15:28:38Z faheem_: Xach: ah. ok, I'll try that. this syntax comes from where?
2014-11-07T15:28:48Z faheem_: i mean what package? or is it part of CL?
2014-11-07T15:29:17Z Grue`: this is described in asdf manual, just search for :tree
2014-11-07T15:29:30Z Xach: faheem_: it is part of asdf
2014-11-07T15:29:48Z faheem_: Xach: ok, I'm trying tree now
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2014-11-07T15:29:52Z faheem_: Grue`: ok
2014-11-07T15:30:35Z faheem_: Xach: that works. Thanks, that's great.
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2014-11-07T15:30:55Z faheem_: I don't think I used the :tree syntax before. Wonder why it worked then.
2014-11-07T15:31:15Z Xach: Maybe you symlinked the system file into the directory
2014-11-07T15:31:23Z Xach: That was once a common practice
2014-11-07T15:32:14Z faheem_: Xach: maybe
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2014-11-07T15:32:35Z faheem_: I'm puzzled what XDG has to do with any of these things. isn't that something totally unrelated?
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2014-11-07T15:33:24Z faheem_: Yes, freedesktop.org's attempt at standardisation.
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2014-11-07T15:34:03Z Xach: faheem_: If you are thinking about putting config and data files somewhere, XDG offers a suggestion about where
2014-11-07T15:34:14Z Xach: faheem_: another option is to just make up locations
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2014-11-07T15:36:36Z faheem_: Xach: ok
2014-11-07T15:37:14Z faheem_: so, how does asdf know to look in /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d? Is that hardwired in to the asdf code?
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2014-11-07T15:37:59Z faheem_: also, is it possible to get asdf to be chatty abou where it is looking? You can get compilers for example to do this with a suitable flag.
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2014-11-07T15:41:17Z faheem_: Yes, I see :tree is documented in 4.1 here -> http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF
2014-11-07T15:42:56Z Xach: I don't know
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2014-11-07T15:47:51Z faheem_: Xach: don't know about what? the chatty thing?
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2014-11-07T15:48:48Z ecraven: is there a free lisp I could use to write android apps?
2014-11-07T15:48:57Z faheem_: I see I answered a question on SO abou this in 2012: http://stackoverflow.com/a/11276351/350713
2014-11-07T15:49:03Z stassats: ecraven: not yet
2014-11-07T15:49:03Z faheem_: I guess I should correct it.
2014-11-07T15:49:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: ecraven, ABCL?
2014-11-07T15:49:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: It runs ont he JVM
2014-11-07T15:49:17Z stassats: it does not
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2014-11-07T15:49:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: stassats, It doesn't? http://abcl.org/
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2014-11-07T15:52:18Z tadni: Time to write a FOSS Lisp Phone OS, then. :^)
2014-11-07T15:53:20Z oGMo: or you could just use CCL or SBCL arm variants :P
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2014-11-07T15:53:50Z stassats: you can, but not for app writing
2014-11-07T15:54:08Z oGMo: or ECL, though CCL is probably the most reasonable option, with a small footprint and relatively fast runtime
2014-11-07T15:54:24Z tadni: I don't even think you can write "apps" in Clojure right now?
2014-11-07T15:54:49Z oGMo: you just need to fill in the NDK bridge... reportedly, CCL can produce a .so ...
2014-11-07T15:54:54Z tadni: And I would think that would be a natural advantage it'd have natively.
2014-11-07T15:55:00Z stassats: ccl's android port is abandoned
2014-11-07T15:55:06Z oGMo: tadni: you can, it's just horrendously slow
2014-11-07T15:55:19Z stassats: and sbcl android port can only be built by one person
2014-11-07T15:56:12Z oGMo: well in any case, even "write an open source CL for dalvik" would be a lot more practical than "write a lisp phone OS" :P
2014-11-07T15:56:15Z tadni: We just need to port Emacs to CL, and turn it into a optimized phone interface and development kit. Easy enough.
2014-11-07T15:56:22Z ecraven: kawa scheme works for writing apps, even rather well, but it's not CL :)
2014-11-07T15:56:40Z alpha-: os means drivers
2014-11-07T15:56:47Z alpha-: drivers are huge pile of pain
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2014-11-07T15:56:47Z tadni: oGMo: I'm being hyperbolic.
2014-11-07T15:57:02Z alpha-: especially radio drivers
2014-11-07T15:57:07Z oGMo: tadni: sure, but if you're being pragmatic, you should just bite the bullet and use java or C++
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2014-11-07T15:57:42Z oGMo: if you want a quick solution, write something like parenscript that spits out java
2014-11-07T15:57:51Z puchacz: hi, I am looking into lparallel internals and I see in make-channeled-task
2014-11-07T15:57:53Z puchacz: :main  (push-queue (with-task-context (apply fn args)) queue)
2014-11-07T15:57:54Z stassats: pragmatic is boring
2014-11-07T15:57:56Z oGMo: that would be pretty reasonable and solve the biggest problems
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2014-11-07T15:58:09Z tadni doesn't have any interest in writing "apps" nor does he plan and/or hope to work for a company that focus there some day ... so he really has no foot in this field/doorway.
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2014-11-07T15:58:44Z puchacz: where both args and fn are local variables, because they are actual arguments to make-channeled-task
2014-11-07T15:59:04Z tadni: Anyone know if Lispkit development is just slow, or has been put on the backburner?
2014-11-07T15:59:23Z oGMo: tadni: then enjoy writing CL on the desktop, it's much more interesting
2014-11-07T15:59:24Z stassats: puchacz: what is your question?
2014-11-07T15:59:35Z puchacz: I see however in bordeaux-thread api specs that local variables like this cannot be used to pass values between tasks
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2014-11-07T15:59:56Z puchacz: stassats: so I am wondering, both bt and lparallel run on the same underlying low level system
2014-11-07T16:00:17Z stassats: you are misinterpreting something, can you show me the bt doc?
2014-11-07T16:00:28Z tadni: oGMo: Well, the closest I'm going to write anything non-trivial in CL, is in about a year. Right now, I'm containg myself to Emacs/Elisp.
2014-11-07T16:00:35Z puchacz: my specific question, or rather wish would be to call (let ((x 3)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (print x))))
2014-11-07T16:00:37Z oGMo: tadni: also there are some x86 android devices, or.. surface pro ;)
2014-11-07T16:00:48Z stassats: puchacz: that's perfectly valid
2014-11-07T16:01:06Z tadni: Depending to where GNU Distro and Guile is at in a year, I might jump in there and mostly skip CL anyways. :^P
2014-11-07T16:01:06Z puchacz: stassats: have a look at http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation
2014-11-07T16:01:25Z stassats: puchacz: i'm not going to read the whole thing
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2014-11-07T16:01:39Z puchacz: stassats, no, not at all
2014-11-07T16:01:44Z puchacz: specifically this line: "Local bindings in the the caller of MAKE-THREAD may or may not be shared with the new thread that it creates"
2014-11-07T16:02:11Z puchacz: so I am afraid my example works just by accident, but I see lparallel also uses local bindings to pass fn and arguments
2014-11-07T16:02:12Z resttime_: "may or may not"
2014-11-07T16:02:20Z stassats: so, your link should have been http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#make-threadfunctionkeyname
2014-11-07T16:02:25Z stassats: and, you are indeed misinterpreting
2014-11-07T16:02:33Z resttime_: that's really wacky documentation
2014-11-07T16:02:37Z puchacz: enlighten me please :-)
2014-11-07T16:02:40Z stassats: puchacz: it's about special variables
2014-11-07T16:02:41Z tadni: Welp, I'm taking a nap. Peace. o/
2014-11-07T16:02:44Z tadni is afk.
2014-11-07T16:02:49Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2014-11-07T16:03:31Z stassats: when it comes to section, it's a good idea to read the whole section
2014-11-07T16:03:39Z puchacz: oh, I did, trust me
2014-11-07T16:03:42Z puchacz: let me see again
2014-11-07T16:04:14Z puchacz: stassats, ok
2014-11-07T16:04:16Z puchacz: got it
2014-11-07T16:04:35Z puchacz: it is indeed about (defvar *x* 4) (let ((*x* 3)) and later like in my example
2014-11-07T16:04:38Z puchacz: correct?
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2014-11-07T16:06:19Z puchacz: now I am reading it as: globals not rebound are OK, local lexical are OK, specials (dynamic) are unspecified
2014-11-07T16:06:22Z stassats: which implementation does really share them?
2014-11-07T16:06:56Z puchacz: share what?
2014-11-07T16:07:24Z stassats: the thing we are talking about, bindings around make-thread
2014-11-07T16:07:34Z stassats: i can't think of any semantics where it would make sense
2014-11-07T16:08:44Z puchacz: stassats: for example, my web application can bind some global variables on requests to have *context* dynamically available in functions that serve this request
2014-11-07T16:08:52Z Grue`: it does seem intuitive that bindings of special variables would be passed into the thread (I know they aren't)
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2014-11-07T16:09:15Z puchacz: now, one of these functions can spawn a thread to do auxiliary things, like logging
2014-11-07T16:10:08Z puchacz: as I know that I cannot do it, I will simply rebind the *context* like (let ((local-context *context*)) (bt:make-thread ...)))
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2014-11-07T16:10:25Z stassats: Grue`: the whole dynamic environment has to be copied, because two threads can't share one
2014-11-07T16:11:03Z puchacz: anyway, I was indeed misreading it, so thanks!
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2014-11-07T16:14:32Z puchacz: ah, another one please; I am logging memory usage every few minutes to hunt for memory leaks; is it safe to call (sb-ext:gc :full t) and (room nil) regardless of what the application is doing?
2014-11-07T16:15:26Z stassats: and bindings have dynamic extent, so, copying the dynamic environment will violate
2014-11-07T16:15:43Z stassats: so that passage is too optimistic, it really will never be shared
2014-11-07T16:16:59Z stassats: puchacz: it is
2014-11-07T16:17:08Z puchacz: stassats: thx
2014-11-07T16:17:45Z stassats: (room t) might be more problematic
2014-11-07T16:17:56Z stassats: if you have other threads, that is
2014-11-07T16:17:58Z puchacz: nah, I only need total allocation really for logging
2014-11-07T16:18:02Z puchacz: yes, I have threads
2014-11-07T16:18:35Z Grue`: there's probably a better way than parsing room output
2014-11-07T16:18:47Z puchacz: if there is, I would use it
2014-11-07T16:18:54Z stassats: profiler
2014-11-07T16:19:06Z puchacz: stassats: I want it on all the time
2014-11-07T16:19:15Z stassats: M-x slime-sprof-start-alloc
2014-11-07T16:19:36Z puchacz: one sec, sorry
2014-11-07T16:21:51Z Grue`: what are you even doing to get memory leaks in lisp?
2014-11-07T16:22:27Z stassats: why are you so surprised?
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2014-11-07T16:29:48Z puchacz: I am back. yeah, easy to get memory leaks in anything. caches, web sessions....
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2014-11-07T16:30:18Z puchacz: and as of rebinding dynamic *context* into local context, as long as I do not modify the content of the context in parallel threads. sorry to be thick here
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2014-11-07T16:32:27Z Grue`: can't you just pass context as a parameter of function when you create a thread? then make the necessary bindings inside the thread
2014-11-07T16:33:32Z puchacz: pass as a parameter is *probably* the same as rebinding in LET I think
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2014-11-07T16:33:39Z stassats: it is
2014-11-07T16:34:44Z puchacz: ok, so as long as I am careful with the content of the context object, I can just rebind it to a local variable and I am fine, right?
2014-11-07T16:37:40Z Grue`: oh wait, make-thread calls function without any parameters
2014-11-07T16:37:55Z Grue`: so nevermind me
2014-11-07T16:38:40Z stassats: what the hell is wrong with my slime now
2014-11-07T16:38:51Z stassats: i have arglist display disappearing
2014-11-07T16:39:12Z jasom: stassats: someone posted a fix to that this week
2014-11-07T16:39:13Z Grue`: stassats: heh, that's happening to everyone lately
2014-11-07T16:39:42Z stassats: but i can't update, because it breaks something else
2014-11-07T16:39:58Z Grue`: it's just an extra line in .emacs
2014-11-07T16:40:02Z jasom:  (eldoc-add-command 'slime-space) <-- I think it was that
2014-11-07T16:40:06Z Grue`: yep
2014-11-07T16:40:46Z stassats: i can just go back to slime 2.9
2014-11-07T16:41:09Z stassats: 2.10 isn't compatible with old swanks, which i don't want to update (because it's prone to break something else)
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2014-11-07T16:42:43Z stassats: ok, that was caused by emacs 24.4, updating emacs is even more annoying
2014-11-07T16:43:49Z Grue`: that explains why i wasn't getting this bug
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2014-11-07T16:59:50Z moore33: jasom: Thanks, I was wondering about that weirdness! Thought it was due to Windows or something.
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2014-11-07T17:12:40Z jasom: maybe we should add that to the topic
2014-11-07T17:13:19Z stassats: doesn't sound like a good idea
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2014-11-07T17:26:18Z jasom: http://www.androwish.org/index.html/home <-- looks like it's time to try to get ltk+ccl on android.
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2014-11-07T17:30:56Z stassats: "X11 emulation"...
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2014-11-07T17:33:19Z goglosh: hai lispers
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2014-11-07T17:46:26Z jasom: hi goglosh
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2014-11-07T18:01:31Z ezakimak: is there a builtin elisp for adding elapsed times, eg (time-add 3:15 1:30) -> 4:45
2014-11-07T18:02:14Z jasom: ezakimak: I don't know, but #emacs might.
2014-11-07T18:02:25Z ezakimak: #emacs is empty
2014-11-07T18:02:49Z jasom: that's odd
2014-11-07T18:02:52Z easye: ezakimak: org-mode is pretty good about timestamps.
2014-11-07T18:02:58Z chu: #emacs is never empty.
2014-11-07T18:02:59Z jasom: I see 859 people
2014-11-07T18:03:03Z wglb: ezakimak: um, no--i see lots of conversation and many dozens logged in
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2014-11-07T18:03:05Z ezakimak: my list shows 1
2014-11-07T18:03:23Z ezakimak: oh, that's ##emacs
2014-11-07T18:03:25Z ezakimak: my bad
2014-11-07T18:03:38Z ezakimak: k i'll ask there. thanks.
2014-11-07T18:03:44Z wglb: ezakimak: what jason said. and the 1 there is likely you.
2014-11-07T18:04:17Z ezakimak: no i hadn't joined
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2014-11-07T18:05:52Z jasom: hmm, when I try to use quicklisp to load a system that depends on cl-async, I get "Component "cl-async" not found"
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2014-11-07T18:06:51Z jasom: it works the second time though.  Weird
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2014-11-07T18:07:44Z jasom: same thing with log4cl; when it first has to download it it fails, but then on retry it succeeds
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2014-11-07T18:54:22Z josteink has company-mode woes
2014-11-07T18:54:37Z josteink: Im trying to use company-slime to get slime-based completion
2014-11-07T18:54:47Z josteink: but when I get completion results, I get something like this
2014-11-07T18:55:40Z josteink: "error in (company-post-command) (void-function slime-fontify-string)"
2014-11-07T18:55:49Z josteink: and after that company-mode is dead until reactivate
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2014-11-07T18:56:50Z sol__: what's the easiest way to start a file server in cl?
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2014-11-07T19:00:09Z oGMo: "file server"?
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2014-11-07T19:02:46Z drmeister: stassats: I do produce .o files and so I think I'm ok mimicking ECL to asdf. It's a high priority to move away from mimicking Ecl.
2014-11-07T19:03:20Z sol__: oGMo, i want to serv files from my pc to a device on local network
2014-11-07T19:04:14Z josteink: hm. so from what I can see slime-company.el actually refers to a undefined function. which makes this a pure elisp matter
2014-11-07T19:04:17Z josteink: oh well
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2014-11-07T19:06:20Z Xach: sol__: you could serve them via http with hunchentoot
2014-11-07T19:06:56Z sol__: Xach, that's what i'm trying to do but (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :document-root "..." :port 4242)
2014-11-07T19:07:03Z sol__: gives an error page
2014-11-07T19:07:11Z sol__: (not found 404)
2014-11-07T19:08:24Z Xach: sol__: what are you using for the document root argument?
2014-11-07T19:08:38Z sol__: "/home/sol/Downloads"
2014-11-07T19:09:45Z Xach: sol__: I think it will work better if you have a trailing slash, that is: "/home/sol/Downloads/"
2014-11-07T19:09:57Z Xach: I don't know for sure, please let me know if it helps.
2014-11-07T19:10:23Z sol__: no cake :(
2014-11-07T19:10:29Z Xach: sol__: what does the log say?
2014-11-07T19:10:40Z sol__: 127.0.0.1 - [2014-11-07 21:09:21] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 404 341 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:33.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/33.0
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2014-11-07T19:11:23Z Xach: sol__: What if you try to access a named file?
2014-11-07T19:11:38Z sol__: yea i just thought of it too
2014-11-07T19:11:39Z sol__: works
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2014-11-07T19:11:50Z sol__: how do i make it list all the files in the dir
2014-11-07T19:12:14Z Xach: I'm not sure.
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2014-11-07T19:18:46Z jasom: sol__: https://github.com/tortkis/directory-list-for-hunchentoot
2014-11-07T19:18:56Z jasom: sol__: note I just googled that, so it might not be the best solution
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2014-11-07T19:19:22Z drewc: sol__: define an :around method on 'hunchentoot:acceptor-dispatch-request is likely the first thing I would do.
2014-11-07T19:21:58Z drewc would actually make a function that outputs the directory listing to HTML and then define-easy-handler it to be honest.
2014-11-07T19:22:51Z oGMo: er... isn't there already a listing handler?
2014-11-07T19:23:30Z sol__: the one that jasom posted :p
2014-11-07T19:26:17Z drewc: oGMo: There are likely many... I do not recall one that is "built in" with hunchentoot though. If you know of it, do tell :)
2014-11-07T19:28:39Z drewc would actually either try to avoid such a thing completely, or use another web server that is made to list/view the filesystem, or most likely, make a function that outputs the directory listing to HTML and then define-easy-handler it to be honest.
2014-11-07T19:29:31Z jasom: I agree drewc
2014-11-07T19:29:38Z oGMo: drewc: ah yeah looks like
2014-11-07T19:29:41Z oGMo: and definitely
2014-11-07T19:30:11Z oGMo: really if you don't have to run a webserver in CL at all you're probably better off.. e.g. just accept websockets or something
2014-11-07T19:30:13Z jasom: does hunchentoot have a function for returning a response body from a file?
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2014-11-07T19:30:55Z drewc has been a web developer, for a living, for about 19 years at this point ... so might be a newbie :P
2014-11-07T19:31:21Z Grue`: jasom: create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler kinda does that
2014-11-07T19:31:34Z drewc: jasom: kinda/sorta yeah
2014-11-07T19:32:12Z jasom: if so a directory listing handler along with files should be fairly easy; you'd need to figure out the mime type in your headers though
2014-11-07T19:32:13Z easye likes RESTAS for adding things to Hunchentoot.
2014-11-07T19:32:28Z easye: RESTAS has an example directory lister.
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2014-11-07T19:32:53Z sol__: okay with pyton: "python -m SimpleHTTPServer"
2014-11-07T19:33:07Z Grue`: the hardest part would be escaping everything, you never know what kind of stuff people put in their filenames
2014-11-07T19:33:10Z drewc: jasom: hunchentoot::*mime-type-list*
2014-11-07T19:33:10Z sol__: yea... i'll think i'll go with python ^^
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2014-11-07T19:33:36Z jasom: sol__: seems reasonable; horses for courses
2014-11-07T19:33:39Z Grue`: for something like this you might as well use nginx or apache
2014-11-07T19:33:49Z jasom: thttpd
2014-11-07T19:35:05Z sol__: don't wanna mess with setting up a proper server
2014-11-07T19:35:14Z drewc: sol__; If you prefer python for such things, that is the best bet.
2014-11-07T19:35:33Z jasom: thttpd -d $PATH_TO_SERVE ; done
2014-11-07T19:35:45Z sol__: i might do something similar for hunchentoot as a learning exercise though
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2014-11-07T19:36:53Z Xach: That would be handy. I don't think it would be too difficult.
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2014-11-07T19:39:47Z drewc: sol__: indeed... I would suggest a function that outputs the directory listing to HTML and then and :around method on ... yeah :)
2014-11-07T19:40:56Z sol__: why :around ?
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2014-11-07T19:42:23Z drewc: well, good question... and actually ... I am likely wrong ... but a number of reasons are/were going through my head.
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2014-11-07T19:43:05Z drewc: 1) Because there is not one already, which means defining one on the existing acceptor will not break anything per se
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2014-11-07T19:44:36Z drewc: 2) OR: create a new acceptor class .... at which point a primary method is likely the better choice but :around is :around so meh... it depends.
2014-11-07T19:45:28Z drewc: 3) I have not looked at the code in some 3 or 4 years TBH, so I might actually be clueless... but it makes sense in my head.
2014-11-07T19:46:55Z drewc M-. 's over to the code to make sure he is somewhat clue-full 
2014-11-07T19:47:00Z sol__: i'll try both approaches, see what fits best. never used the :around feature
2014-11-07T19:51:52Z drewc: ah ... right... I forgot about that particular detail... and looking at the code, it has not changed since I last looked at it... So yay!
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2014-11-07T19:54:09Z drewc: sol__: both approaches are doable, and at the same time dealing with files and directories and the interface between PATHNAMEs and whatever platform you plan on running your server on is loads of phun as well. So all in all, a great experience
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2014-11-07T20:34:09Z jasom: okay, slime *really* doesn't like it when you compile a file that has non-visible code
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2014-11-07T20:35:12Z Xach: what kind of code is non-visible?
2014-11-07T20:35:25Z jasom: Xach: in this case I was using evil-mode code folding
2014-11-07T20:36:17Z jasom: so it's not visible in the editor, but is in the file; C-c C-k tried to pull up an error that wasn't visible
2014-11-07T20:36:32Z Xach: ah
2014-11-07T20:37:17Z jasom: then everything went wrong, to the point where trying to recompile the file normally gave really strange errors e.g. compiling (defun () (list 'foo)) warned about an illegal function call to foo
2014-11-07T20:37:31Z jasom: I ended up just restarting the inferior lisp
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2014-11-07T21:11:40Z micahjam97: hello all. I'm new to lisp. So new that I haven't started learning it yet. I just want to know a few things first.
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2014-11-07T21:12:18Z micahjam97: what's the difference between the original lisp and common lisp
2014-11-07T21:12:54Z Bicyclidine: several decades of changes
2014-11-07T21:13:20Z dlowe: The original lisp was pretty bare bones
2014-11-07T21:13:51Z micahjam97: I assume that any lisp program can run with common lisp. Is that assumption correct?
2014-11-07T21:14:10Z dlowe: no, it's not correct.
2014-11-07T21:14:14Z tadni: micahjam97: Define "Lisp program"?
2014-11-07T21:14:19Z dim: more or less, depending on how much work you want to put into it
2014-11-07T21:14:36Z dim: pjb has gone a long way sometimes to implement lisp compats
2014-11-07T21:14:36Z Bicyclidine: it takes some work http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2014-11-07T21:14:40Z dlowe: common lisp is common because it was an attempt to unify the more commonly-used lisp dialects.
2014-11-07T21:14:50Z chu: I assume you could write some macro trickery which translated schemes (defines (...)) into appropriate CL constructs...
2014-11-07T21:14:54Z tadni: CL is a lot more common to be easily portable, but I don't think it's effortless in all cases.
2014-11-07T21:15:14Z dlowe: chu: you'll get hung up on lisp-1/lisp-2 problems
2014-11-07T21:15:15Z tadni: Than say Scheme, which looks like a nightmare.
2014-11-07T21:15:17Z micahjam97: should I even bother with Lisp or do Common Lisp?
2014-11-07T21:15:21Z chu: dlowe: Yeah.
2014-11-07T21:15:29Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-11-07T21:15:29Z dlowe: micahjam97: Lisp is a family of languages, of which Common Lisp is one
2014-11-07T21:15:34Z tadni: micahjam97: What is "Lisp"?
2014-11-07T21:15:39Z Bicyclidine: micahjam97: if by "lisp" you mean something mccarthy made in the 50s of course you shouldn't bother with it, except as a historical thing
2014-11-07T21:16:08Z dlowe: Common Lisp is a very nice language, with very good tools
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2014-11-07T21:16:35Z tadni: dlowe: I think a big confusion in this chan, is that newer people don't ever read the topic and don't realize when they are refering to "#lisp" it is in reference to CL.
2014-11-07T21:16:48Z dlowe: tadni: the confusion is entirely understandable
2014-11-07T21:16:52Z tadni: I've seen it happen many times and I even did awhile back.
2014-11-07T21:16:55Z dlowe: That's why there's now ##lisp
2014-11-07T21:17:04Z dlowe: - the less confusing lisp channel
2014-11-07T21:17:12Z tadni: dlowe: Had no idea, thanks, I'll hope in.
2014-11-07T21:17:29Z tadni: About as bare as I expected.
2014-11-07T21:18:43Z tadni: dlowe: How long has this been around?
2014-11-07T21:19:09Z dlowe: uh, a few weeks
2014-11-07T21:19:34Z dlowe: It's fairly chatty. Not a whole lot of people want to talk about lisp in general, though
2014-11-07T21:19:36Z ofosos joined #lisp
2014-11-07T21:19:44Z tadni: Well, I guess I'll add it to my autojoin and hope that there's some non-trivial expansion eventually. :^P
2014-11-07T21:19:47Z micahjam97: look guys. Let me clear something up. I've always heard of lisp, but never tried it. I've never even heard of Common Lisp before about ha;f an hour agp. I just typed in #lisp in the channel section and hoped it would take me to the right place. So, how aboutif you can clear some stuff up for me/
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2014-11-07T21:20:32Z micahjam97: So, in today's age, when you say 'Lisp' you're refering to 'Common Lisp', correct?
2014-11-07T21:20:55Z chu: *WE* are, but Schemers would probably take it to mean scheme, etc
2014-11-07T21:21:09Z dlowe: yeah, it's best to think of bare "lisp" as being a family name
2014-11-07T21:21:18Z wglb: and the folks in #emacs would mean elisp
2014-11-07T21:21:52Z micahjam97: What about .lisp files? Are they refering to 'Common Lisp' or 'Scheme'?
2014-11-07T21:21:56Z stassats: i'm not sure about schemers
2014-11-07T21:22:00Z stassats: micahjam97: common lisp
2014-11-07T21:22:02Z jasom: micahjam97: almost always common lisp
2014-11-07T21:22:05Z chu: Common, I believe. I think scheme is like .sch
2014-11-07T21:22:07Z jasom: micahjam97: unless it's really old
2014-11-07T21:22:20Z jasom: scheme uses .sch elisp uses .el
2014-11-07T21:22:31Z stassats: you mean scm
2014-11-07T21:22:40Z micahjam97: so, clisp is the Common Lisp interpreter?
2014-11-07T21:22:44Z dlowe: What makes something a lisp is primarily that programs are composed of data structures instead of textual tokens. The text in a lisp is translated to a data structure by a reader before being compiled or executed..
2014-11-07T21:22:52Z stassats: micahjam97: it's _a_ common lisp interpreter
2014-11-07T21:23:16Z stassats: more correctly, an implementation
2014-11-07T21:23:16Z micahjam97: what is the most popular Scheme interpreter
2014-11-07T21:23:19Z chu: Yep, stassats, sorry.
2014-11-07T21:23:25Z dlowe: micahjam97: Common Lisp is defined by a standard, not an implementation. There are many conforming compilers.
2014-11-07T21:23:29Z chu: Racket, though I'm not sure if it's a seperate scheme itself
2014-11-07T21:23:30Z tadni: micahjam97: Racket?
2014-11-07T21:23:37Z dlowe: I'm not sure there are any Common Lisp interpreters.
2014-11-07T21:23:38Z stassats: micahjam97: ask #scheme
2014-11-07T21:23:51Z stassats: now is the time somebody said that Racket is not Scheme
2014-11-07T21:23:52Z tadni: But Racket is kinda not Scheme, but kinda is.
2014-11-07T21:23:59Z Ven joined #lisp
2014-11-07T21:24:13Z stassats: see
2014-11-07T21:24:19Z micahjam97: dlowe: so, like, how JavaScript or HTML has a standard, but is implemented diferently by browser?
2014-11-07T21:24:26Z jasom: micahjam97: sbcl is probably the most compon common lisp implementation among those in this channel; other ones include ccl, lispworks, and allegro (the last two are not open source)
2014-11-07T21:24:28Z chu: Yeah, I thought there was something strange going on there. But I have no knowledge of scheme.
2014-11-07T21:24:35Z dlowe: micahjam97: yeah, just so
2014-11-07T21:24:38Z jasom: micahjam97: exactly
2014-11-07T21:24:48Z jasom: micahjam97: or nodejs for that matter
2014-11-07T21:24:51Z dlowe: micahjam97: except the guarantees are better with Common Lisp :p
2014-11-07T21:24:53Z tadni: stassats: Well, I mean, it's true as far as I can tell. I'm by no means an authority on the matter though, so... :^P
2014-11-07T21:25:16Z stassats: clisp is our IE6
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2014-11-07T21:25:25Z jasom: stassats: I thought that was gcl?
2014-11-07T21:25:39Z stassats: gcl is mosaic
2014-11-07T21:25:42Z micahjam97: and pascal too, or c, or fortran, too, i guess
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2014-11-07T21:26:12Z tadni: Is gcl used for anything besides mathimatica, or whatever?
2014-11-07T21:26:20Z jasom: micahjam97: right.  It's (in general) a sign of maturity for a language when there is a standard, rather than just a reference implementation
2014-11-07T21:26:27Z stassats: it's used for confusing people who love everything with "GNU" in it
2014-11-07T21:26:31Z micahjam97: so, can anyone point  to any good resources for learning common lisp?
2014-11-07T21:26:39Z stassats: minion: please tell micahjam97 about PCL
2014-11-07T21:26:39Z minion: micahjam97: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-11-07T21:27:00Z dlowe: minion: tell micahjam97 about Lisp in Small Pieces
2014-11-07T21:27:00Z minion: micahjam97: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together
2014-11-07T21:27:01Z chu: "An Introduction to Symbolic Computation", "Practical Common Lisp", "Paradigms of AI"
2014-11-07T21:27:09Z dlowe: :p
2014-11-07T21:27:10Z jasom: micahjam97: do you have experience programming in other languages?  If so use PCL, otherwise use Touretzky
2014-11-07T21:27:21Z jasom: does minion have a macro for touretzky?
2014-11-07T21:27:22Z chu: Yeah, jasom, good point actually.
2014-11-07T21:27:23Z dlowe: micahjam97: Lisp in small pieces has a style that a lot of people like
2014-11-07T21:27:28Z dlowe: oh
2014-11-07T21:27:35Z dlowe: not LiSP
2014-11-07T21:27:40Z stassats: minion: LiSP
2014-11-07T21:27:40Z minion: LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. <http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html>
2014-11-07T21:27:47Z dlowe: minion: tell micahjam97 about Land of Lisp
2014-11-07T21:27:47Z minion: micahjam97: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together
2014-11-07T21:27:50Z jasom: minion: Touretzky
2014-11-07T21:27:50Z dlowe: minion: tell micahjam97 about lol
2014-11-07T21:27:50Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``Touretzky''.
2014-11-07T21:27:50Z minion: micahjam97: please see lol: Land of Lisp - http://landoflisp.com
2014-11-07T21:27:51Z stassats: minion: gentle
2014-11-07T21:27:51Z minion: gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-11-07T21:27:56Z dlowe: there we go.
2014-11-07T21:27:57Z stassats: you savages
2014-11-07T21:27:58Z jasom: thanks stats
2014-11-07T21:28:16Z micahjam97: is lisp what you call a functional programming language?
2014-11-07T21:28:22Z dlowe: Not really.
2014-11-07T21:28:22Z stassats: not really
2014-11-07T21:28:27Z dlowe: It has first-class functions
2014-11-07T21:28:31Z tadni: micahjam97: In regards to CL, not really.
2014-11-07T21:28:34Z dlowe: but doesn't everyone these days
2014-11-07T21:28:51Z jasom: micahjam97: more "multi paradigm"; it supports functional programming, but in an of itself is not particularly functional
2014-11-07T21:28:55Z micahjam97: so what is it?
2014-11-07T21:28:57Z oGMo: dlowe: sadly not
2014-11-07T21:29:03Z stassats: lisp is a kind of language where each day of the week you can write in a different paradigm
2014-11-07T21:29:03Z tadni: I mean, the preferred paradigm as far as I can tell is OO via CLOS.
2014-11-07T21:29:10Z stassats: and on sunday you can invent a new one
2014-11-07T21:29:25Z oGMo: micahjam97: it's procedural
2014-11-07T21:29:25Z micahjam97: what is a functional programmin language anyway?
2014-11-07T21:29:42Z oGMo: but it's more of a language-language
2014-11-07T21:29:43Z stassats: it's a burrito, i've heard
2014-11-07T21:29:48Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving)
2014-11-07T21:29:49Z jasom: micahjam97: functional programming is a style of programming; a functional programming language is a language that is specifically geared towards programming in that style
2014-11-07T21:30:09Z oGMo: stassats: it can be if you want!
2014-11-07T21:33:58Z tadni: jasom: That is an amazingly non-helpful definition in-regards to actual quantifiers/specifics. :^)
2014-11-07T21:34:27Z dlowe: it's not a very useful word, really
2014-11-07T21:34:32Z dlowe: like "scripting language"
2014-11-07T21:35:03Z jasom: tadni: not really; the follow up question "what is functional programming" is non-trivial to answer, so including it would not make sense as micahjam97 can always ask if interested
2014-11-07T21:35:05Z tadni: Oh wow, wikipedia's entry is not completely useless. Actually explained in (possibly too) simple and understandable terms.
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2014-11-07T21:35:30Z francogrex:  
2014-11-07T21:35:36Z dlowe: francogrex: very wise.
2014-11-07T21:35:41Z tadni: jasom: Well, yeah, but you can give someone a brief overview -- me thinks, without devoiding all meaing.
2014-11-07T21:35:57Z jasom: tadni: only if you assume they understand "mutation" and "state"
2014-11-07T21:36:25Z micahjam97: you guys are a lot more helpful than the guys on the perl irc network
2014-11-07T21:36:26Z tadni: The leading few sentence in/of wikipedia's entry. "In computer science, functional programming is a programming paradigm, a style of building the structure and elements of computer programs, that treats computation as the evaluation of mathematical functions and avoids changing-state and mutable data. It is a declarative programming paradigm, which means programming is done with expressions"
2014-11-07T21:36:47Z tadni: micahjam97: "Network" meaning channel?
2014-11-07T21:36:48Z drewc: tadni: I think that if you think that OO is the preferred paradigm, that I disagree with you and think you are way off ... in my thoughts anyway. What I would chat is ... wait a minute ... thinking out loud! :)
2014-11-07T21:36:54Z micahjam97: nobody even answers your question on any of the other channels either
2014-11-07T21:36:58Z dim: functionnal programming is about two things: functions as first class object (you can pass function as parameters, or return values) and avoiding side effects
2014-11-07T21:37:18Z dim: common lisp is good at providing functions as first class objects, but doesn't care at all about avoiding side effects
2014-11-07T21:37:28Z stassats: i prefer dysfunctional programming myself
2014-11-07T21:37:29Z dim: so it's said to be functional, but not "pure functional"
2014-11-07T21:37:41Z dim: pure is when you program with no side effects
2014-11-07T21:37:43Z micahjam97: tadni: yeah I meant channel. I realized my mistake right after I sent it
2014-11-07T21:37:50Z dim: stassats: in my case it's more than I can't help it ;-)
2014-11-07T21:38:26Z tadni: drewc: I'm just saying, really only having a grounding in Elisp to ANY real tangible degree (and even that is a joke) and my few trivial patches to GNU Guix (a Guile Scheme program) -- there seems to be a strong focus on OO via CLOS. Maybe that's just me not knowing the whole of the community though. :^P
2014-11-07T21:38:26Z stassats: and i always said about medicine, if ain't got side effects it can't cure you
2014-11-07T21:38:27Z dim: and if you want more confusion, let's comment on http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/dynamic-languages-are-static-languages/
2014-11-07T21:39:35Z jasom: tadni: well then it depends on what you mean by OO; defgeneric is used a lot more often than defclass, for example
2014-11-07T21:39:38Z micahjam97: what's the difference between CL and Scheme
2014-11-07T21:39:39Z drewc: tadni: well... define OO, for really, I use CLOS all the time, but not at all with a focus on object oriented programming.
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2014-11-07T21:40:13Z drewc: micahjam97: what is the difference between C and Go? ;)
2014-11-07T21:40:20Z tadni: micahjam97: Yeah, that's fine -- I just didn't know if Perl had their own irc network or something crazy like that. :^P
2014-11-07T21:40:27Z stassats: micahjam97: it's easier to list the similarities
2014-11-07T21:41:20Z micahjam97: drewc: I don't Go
2014-11-07T21:41:28Z jasom: micahjam97: a lot is different.  They are two languages with historical similarities; kind of like C++ and Java look very similar unless you already know one of them, in which case they look really different
2014-11-07T21:41:32Z micahjam97: stassats: like what?
2014-11-07T21:41:43Z tadni: drewc: Well, I mean CLOS is an object system so I assume you must be dipping into OO at least to some degree ... that being said, it too does appear that OO in CL and I assume to other Lisps might be very different than in say C++. :^P
2014-11-07T21:42:00Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-11-07T21:42:03Z francogrex: Parentheses
2014-11-07T21:42:04Z stassats: micahjam97: parenthesis syntax, which enables some form of macros (and the macros are actually different)
2014-11-07T21:42:15Z stassats: hard to list other, maybe full numerical tower?
2014-11-07T21:42:29Z jasom: scheme now supports code as data in the specification, right?
2014-11-07T21:42:33Z Grue`: lambdas are kinda similar
2014-11-07T21:42:42Z jasom: stassats: lexical closures?
2014-11-07T21:42:55Z stassats: jasom: what hasn't them these days?
2014-11-07T21:42:58Z micahjam97: are there any advantages scheme has over cl?
2014-11-07T21:43:04Z stassats: not really
2014-11-07T21:43:07Z jasom: micahjam97: it's a lot easier to implement
2014-11-07T21:43:12Z drewc: tadni: EVERYTHING in CL has a class, so everything is a CLOS object... does that at all mean that you orient your programming towards objects? I suppose it does, as everything is an object...
2014-11-07T21:43:22Z stassats: jasom: except for continuations
2014-11-07T21:43:49Z wglb: micahjam97: Scheme is a smaller language.
2014-11-07T21:43:51Z jasom: call/cc is the only thing scheme has that I miss in common lisp
2014-11-07T21:43:54Z stassats: they are not easy to implement efficiently
2014-11-07T21:44:19Z stassats: jasom: yeah, nothing like call/cc to obfuscate your flow
2014-11-07T21:44:21Z jasom: stassats: they aren't terrible to implement "not horribly slow"
2014-11-07T21:44:29Z tadni: Peace peeps. o/
2014-11-07T21:45:08Z micahjam97: what's clojure?
2014-11-07T21:45:13Z stassats: an abomination
2014-11-07T21:46:04Z dim: what's ABCL?
2014-11-07T21:46:41Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-11-07T21:46:42Z drewc: jasom: I use call/cc all the time in CL, but really it is delimited Ks, which I prefer over scheme's first class K's for a number of reasons.
2014-11-07T21:47:04Z stassats: minion: what does ABCL stand for?
2014-11-07T21:47:04Z minion: Aposiopetic Banded Common Lisp
2014-11-07T21:47:11Z jasom: micahjam97: clojure a very recent language that is in the lisp family; it primarily is known for running in the JVM and having features for avoiding mutable shared state
2014-11-07T21:47:11Z stassats: dim: there you go
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2014-11-07T21:47:23Z dim: hehe
2014-11-07T21:47:32Z jasom: drewc: yeah I use that too, it has a few rough edges, and agreed on delimited continuations
2014-11-07T21:47:43Z micahjam97: stassats: explain
2014-11-07T21:47:56Z stassats: i don't have to!
2014-11-07T21:48:25Z micahjam97: is haskell anything  like lisp?
2014-11-07T21:48:30Z stassats: not at all
2014-11-07T21:48:33Z dim: so I'm still confused about static/dynamic strong/weak typing, with or without inference, and in particular the place of CL in that area... any good reading about that? thoughts? answers?
2014-11-07T21:48:42Z stassats: it's like the complete opposite
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2014-11-07T21:49:08Z stassats: dim: there is no definition of strong and weak
2014-11-07T21:49:11Z swflint_away is now known as swflint
2014-11-07T21:49:20Z stassats: and static and dynamic is pretty straightforward
2014-11-07T21:49:21Z dim: haskell, ocaml, mythryl... that's a family of language for another time, I think I'll get there someday
2014-11-07T21:49:33Z micahjam97: how do you guys feel about other languages like perl
2014-11-07T21:49:54Z dim: stassats: that article link I posted (dynamic-languages-are-static-languages) argues that dynamic means you only have a single type
2014-11-07T21:49:55Z chu: They're not common lisp.
2014-11-07T21:50:05Z stassats: dim: that's bonkers
2014-11-07T21:50:18Z dim: no that's another definition/grammar/glossary
2014-11-07T21:50:24Z francogrex quit
2014-11-07T21:50:42Z drewc: micahjam97: my first contract for programming was in perl .... I liked it back then 4 a number of reasons. What is it that you are asking precisely?
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2014-11-07T21:51:13Z Bicyclidine: dim: strong/weak seems pretty meaningless. cl has dynamic types with optional static partial inference and annotation.
2014-11-07T21:51:26Z dim: I used to think that static means the variables/bindings are of known provable types where dynamic means that values are known to be of some type or another
2014-11-07T21:51:42Z micahjam97: i don't know really. I was just wondering what was your opinion on it
2014-11-07T21:51:45Z jasom: dim strong/weak is mostly meaningless; it's a continuum of how easy it is to type-pun
2014-11-07T21:52:25Z stassats: micahjam97: it's good for mastering regexes, that's about it
2014-11-07T21:52:31Z stassats: code golfing, as well
2014-11-07T21:52:32Z dim: I used to think that weak means nothing cares, like in PHP, but actually the problem with PHP is more to do with implicit type casting
2014-11-07T21:52:34Z micahjam97: what interpreter would you recommend for mac?
2014-11-07T21:52:37Z Bicyclidine: there's sort of an issue in that CL has types as sets, which doesn't match C"s view of types (a uint16 declaration means something different from a (type (unsigned-byte 16)) declaration)
2014-11-07T21:52:40Z jasom: static/dynamic is hard because you could argue that lisp is statically typed with everything not declared of type t
2014-11-07T21:53:01Z Pullphinger quit
2014-11-07T21:53:06Z Bicyclidine: or with the fancy type theory view of types, since it involves subtyping all over the damn place
2014-11-07T21:53:14Z Bicyclidine: micahjam97: ccl's a good compiler
2014-11-07T21:53:16Z dim: jasom: that's the argument where dynamic typing is actually offering a single data type
2014-11-07T21:53:18Z jasom: micahjam97: ccl and sbcl should both be good
2014-11-07T21:53:24Z j_king: +1 for ccl
2014-11-07T21:53:40Z j_king: the cocoa bindings it comes with are pretty decent too
2014-11-07T21:53:43Z stassats: i wouldn't recommend an interpreter. a compiler, on the other hand
2014-11-07T21:53:58Z micahjam97: dim: I don't want to sound like a fool, but I think weak typed is where you don't specify a variable type, and strong is where you do
2014-11-07T21:53:59Z j_king: if you intend to make osx applications. :)
2014-11-07T21:54:02Z Bicyclidine: dim: i think that's kidn of due to conflating different views of types in "dynamic" versus "static" systems
2014-11-07T21:54:14Z stassats: micahjam97: that's dynamic vs static
2014-11-07T21:54:34Z Bicyclidine: micahjam97: that would make inferred type languages like haskell or ML weak.
2014-11-07T21:54:44Z jasom: is there a way to jump to the top of the stack (bottom of the stack trace) in sldb?
2014-11-07T21:54:59Z dim: micahjam97: have a look at ocaml and haskell then, and ML languages with type inference
2014-11-07T21:55:00Z stassats: jasom: >
2014-11-07T21:55:12Z micahjam97: dim; okay then
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2014-11-07T21:55:30Z jasom: stassats: thanks; next question what does it mean when every stack frame is named #
2014-11-07T21:55:32Z dim: stassats: the static partial inference of CL could be complete?
2014-11-07T21:55:45Z stassats: dim: what is complete?
2014-11-07T21:56:00Z Bicyclidine: CL's view of "types" includes single objects, it's pretty obviously halting problem equivalent to do "perfect" inference of CL types
2014-11-07T21:56:21Z dim: being able to fully analyze the type of every binding in all places and report problems, ala haskell/ocaml and friends
2014-11-07T21:56:23Z stassats: and type inference doesn't really mean you don't specify types, because somewhere deep down a function you call has a specified type, and it infects the caller with it
2014-11-07T21:56:28Z jasom: dim: some functions must never have their type restricted (other than T) as e.g. (read) (Eval)
2014-11-07T21:56:58Z jasom: stassats: unless it returns a literal which may implicitly have a type
2014-11-07T21:56:59Z dim: stassats: yeah some parts of the code need to provide type annotations, agreed, just the right amount of it
2014-11-07T21:57:01Z Bicyclidine: clearly an IO T
2014-11-07T21:57:15Z dim: is it possible in CL to annotate the return value of a function?
2014-11-07T21:57:21Z stassats: of course
2014-11-07T21:57:22Z dim: return type, I mean
2014-11-07T21:57:23Z Bicyclidine: yeah, declare the ftype.
2014-11-07T21:57:24Z jasom: dim: yes
2014-11-07T21:57:30Z Bicyclidine: or put a the around the return value(s).
2014-11-07T21:57:34Z dim: wow, I've never read code with that
2014-11-07T21:57:42Z Bicyclidine: with ftypes?
2014-11-07T21:57:44Z jasom: IIRC sbcl has a nicer way of doing it that's non standard
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2014-11-07T21:57:52Z stassats: maybe you just haven't noticed
2014-11-07T21:58:01Z drewc: Having done a whole bunch of work using Interface Passing Style, I think that is the dynamic equivalent of a fundamental (h/m) static type system... and that types have little to do with it per se.
2014-11-07T21:58:03Z Bicyclidine: sbcl has something it inherited from cmucl but i think it's broken
2014-11-07T21:58:22Z dim: (defun foo (x) (declare (type fixnum x)) (values (the fixnum (+ 1 x))))
2014-11-07T21:58:23Z stassats: jasom: it has, (declare (values type))
2014-11-07T21:58:25Z dim: something like that?
2014-11-07T21:58:26Z jasom: Bicyclidine: oh, it's broken now?  Good to know; I found it when reading the Python paper
2014-11-07T21:58:28Z Bicyclidine: yeah that one
2014-11-07T21:58:48Z Bicyclidine: dim: yeah. might wana use ftype instead though.
2014-11-07T21:58:58Z stassats: i don't think it's broken, non portable
2014-11-07T21:59:00Z Bicyclidine: well, putting it there will probably make the arithmetic simple
2014-11-07T21:59:17Z micahjam97: so, is CL an interpreted or compiled language? or can it be both
2014-11-07T21:59:23Z Bicyclidine: both
2014-11-07T21:59:25Z stassats: primarily compiled
2014-11-07T21:59:31Z Bicyclidine: it is a language for which there exist interpreters and compilers
2014-11-07T21:59:34Z Bicyclidine: same as C or Python
2014-11-07T21:59:47Z jasom: dim (declaim (ftype (function (t) fixnum)) foo)
2014-11-07T21:59:51Z wglb: interpreted/compiled is a property of the implementation, not the language
2014-11-07T21:59:54Z drewc: micahjam97: it has EVAL and COMPILE built in .. so both.
2014-11-07T22:00:06Z jasom: drewc: though eval might not interpret
2014-11-07T22:00:18Z jasom: eval is permitted to compile
2014-11-07T22:00:20Z stassats: (declaim (ftype (function (t) (values fixnum &optional))) foo) would be a better declaration
2014-11-07T22:00:21Z drewc: jasom: define interpret.
2014-11-07T22:00:37Z Bicyclidine: gonna write an implementation where user-written metacircular interpreters are optimized to COMPILE calls
2014-11-07T22:00:37Z micahjam97: what is the real difference for using it as interpreted of compiled?
2014-11-07T22:00:40Z dim: (defun foo (x) (declare (ftype (function (fixnum) fixnum))) (+ 1 x))
2014-11-07T22:00:44Z dim: e.g. that way, then?
2014-11-07T22:00:56Z dim: oh can't do that within the defun itself?
2014-11-07T22:00:56Z stassats: micahjam97: compiled is faster
2014-11-07T22:01:01Z drewc: OR: from sexp to running is not interpreting the sexp as code?
2014-11-07T22:01:08Z micahjam97: okay then
2014-11-07T22:01:09Z stassats: dim: can't
2014-11-07T22:01:20Z dim: yeah makes sense in a way
2014-11-07T22:01:22Z jasom: dim: if you do it inside the defun itself then it only takes effect inside the defun, so function calls outside the defun can't take advantage of it
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2014-11-07T22:02:04Z drewc: jasom: so i think that EVAL is interpretation, even if the implementation of the interpretation includes compilation.
2014-11-07T22:02:25Z stassats: that's just philosophical water muddying
2014-11-07T22:02:33Z jasom: drewc: directly executes without previously compiling it into machine language
2014-11-07T22:02:37Z stassats: there's a clear distinction between compiling and interpreting
2014-11-07T22:02:39Z dim: (foo most-positive-fixnum) ; still works when declared fixnum
2014-11-07T22:02:54Z micahjam97: thanks for all the help guys. i've go to go
2014-11-07T22:02:58Z dim: so I guess the compiler didn't go too far
2014-11-07T22:03:02Z dim: or I didn't do it right
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2014-11-07T22:03:14Z dim: The value 4611686018427387904 is not of type FIXNUM.
2014-11-07T22:03:15Z dim: ahah, ok
2014-11-07T22:03:18Z stassats: dim: with what?
2014-11-07T22:03:25Z dim: I did defun then declaim
2014-11-07T22:03:26Z jasom: dim: a large fraction of the time sbcl will correctly infer the return type so on sbcl declaring the ftype is often superfluous
2014-11-07T22:03:35Z dim: so I did defun again and now I have the error I wanted to see
2014-11-07T22:03:54Z stassats: jasom: it won't
2014-11-07T22:04:04Z stassats: like, a small fraction of the time
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2014-11-07T22:04:12Z stassats: like, never for defined functions
2014-11-07T22:04:41Z dim: so I should probably get into the habit of defining the ftype then
2014-11-07T22:04:46Z dim: I really did miss that
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2014-11-07T22:04:48Z stassats: there's a secret way, but say goodbye to redefinitions: sb-ext:*derive-function-types*
2014-11-07T22:05:35Z stassats: dim: you don't have to
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2014-11-07T22:05:52Z stassats: unless you are optimizing things and you know you need it
2014-11-07T22:05:55Z dim: is there a way to declare a list of known things? (struct instances, say)
2014-11-07T22:06:08Z dim: stassats: well it's a good documentation too
2014-11-07T22:06:15Z jasom: dim: only of bounded length
2014-11-07T22:06:17Z drewc: jasom, stassats: yah, fair enough, evaluation is not really interpretation, and CL does not have an INTERPRET, so I was mistaken.
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2014-11-07T22:06:19Z stassats: dim: it really isn't
2014-11-07T22:06:24Z dim: why not?
2014-11-07T22:06:25Z jasom: dim: or with satisfies, I suppose
2014-11-07T22:06:32Z stassats: i mean, good documentation is good documentation
2014-11-07T22:06:42Z stassats: types don't tell pretty much anything
2014-11-07T22:06:43Z jasom: dim: because a list is really (or CONS NIL)
2014-11-07T22:06:57Z stassats: like, ok, this 100 line function returns a number, whoo
2014-11-07T22:07:10Z jasom: dim: and you can parameterize CONS based upon the type of the CAR and CDR
2014-11-07T22:07:19Z jasom: and you can't have recursive type definitions
2014-11-07T22:07:40Z stassats: there is a way to declare anything, SATISFIES
2014-11-07T22:07:52Z jasom: so e.g. a list of 1 element of type TYPE would be (cons TYPE NULL)
2014-11-07T22:07:56Z stassats: but no optimizations then
2014-11-07T22:07:58Z drewc: stassats: I usually start off the docstring with "=> /number/" for that sort of function :)
2014-11-07T22:07:59Z dim: stassats: in terms of APIs it's good to document what you return, I don't know how much the CL type system can help here
2014-11-07T22:08:04Z jasom: a list of 2 elements would be (cons TYPE (cons TYPE null))
2014-11-07T22:08:07Z jasom: &etc
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2014-11-07T22:09:20Z stassats: i strive to reduce the number of declarations in my code
2014-11-07T22:09:35Z stassats: easier to modify and to read
2014-11-07T22:10:05Z dim: yeah well. then I need to get better at docs/docstrings
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2014-11-07T22:10:35Z dim: do you use a specific format with tooling to parse it? maybe I should look in details at what Quickdocs is doing
2014-11-07T22:11:02Z stassats: i prefer hand written manuals, not something generated from docstrings
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2014-11-07T22:13:39Z stassats: and good function names and variable names usually help more than types
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2014-11-07T22:13:48Z jasom: any idea why tracing even a single function causes my control stack to be exhausted, but not tracing doesn't?
2014-11-07T22:14:10Z dim: for finished products I generally want 3 docs: for the end-user, for the "admin" and for the developer; the docstrings are only for the developer
2014-11-07T22:14:25Z stassats: jasom: your function is used to implement tracing
2014-11-07T22:14:46Z jasom: stassats: I hope not, unless sbcl is calling into my function
2014-11-07T22:14:53Z dim: if it's a lib then the end-user is another developer and needs a walk through the high level view of the thing, and that's your proper manual I guess
2014-11-07T22:15:09Z jasom: I would imagine a tail-call that was previously eliminated would do it, but I don't have a tail call in this function
2014-11-07T22:15:33Z jasom: stassats: also the stack backtrace is just thousands of fuctions named #
2014-11-07T22:15:44Z Bicyclidine: can you see anything relevant in the disassemblies?
2014-11-07T22:15:48Z stassats: it's not functions named #
2014-11-07T22:15:58Z stassats: the backtrace just can't print thins
2014-11-07T22:16:04Z jasom: stassats: okay
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2014-11-07T22:30:01Z puchacz: hi again, is it possible to get a chain of functions that called me (in textual form is ok) for logging purposes please?
2014-11-07T22:30:03Z puchacz: in sbcl
2014-11-07T22:30:33Z stassats: minion: trivial-backtrace?
2014-11-07T22:30:33Z minion: trivial-backtrace: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/trivial-backtrace
2014-11-07T22:30:36Z Shinmera: puchacz: Have a look at dissect. http://shinmera.github.io/dissect/
2014-11-07T22:30:46Z puchacz: thanks, guys
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2014-11-07T22:56:39Z jasom just got woo working with basic-binary-ipc
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2014-11-07T22:59:34Z jasom: ~17k requests/sec with both it and the default cl-async
2014-11-07T23:03:40Z jasom: within 100 requests/sec of node.js
2014-11-07T23:03:52Z jasom: (this is the hello world benchmark that ships with woo)
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2014-11-07T23:18:14Z jasom: lisp purists wil note that it eliminates the last non-lisp library dependency for woo (though that's not why I did it)
2014-11-07T23:18:56Z Shinmera: Nice.
2014-11-07T23:19:10Z Shinmera: Does woo handle POST data yet?
2014-11-07T23:19:18Z jasom: not sure
2014-11-07T23:19:44Z Shinmera: Last time I checked it didn't. Once it does I can complete the Radiance bridge for it.
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2014-11-07T23:30:22Z jasom looks for clacks example with post
2014-11-07T23:32:43Z Shinmera: Clack doesn't have a handler for woo at all yet, from what I can see.
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2014-11-07T23:33:22Z jasom: Shinmera: it shows it on the woo readme
2014-11-07T23:33:51Z Shinmera: Ah, right.
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2014-11-07T23:34:16Z Shinmera: I was looking at https://github.com/fukamachi/clack/tree/master/src/core/handler
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2014-11-07T23:35:46Z jasom: Shinmera: it gives you the raw body, that should be enough for POST, right?
2014-11-07T23:36:18Z Shinmera: jasom: Well I'd like to have it split into keys and values as well.
2014-11-07T23:36:30Z Shinmera: jasom: I know I can do that myself, of course.
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2014-11-07T23:47:43Z jasom: Shinmera: looks like there's bugs in the body processing actually
2014-11-07T23:48:06Z jasom: I'll have to try again with the default version, but my modified version gives an error that the body isn't of type simple-array
2014-11-07T23:48:29Z jasom: and I didn't touch any of that code, and my code only sends woo simple arrays
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