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2014-11-06T00:57:21Z resttime: sweet, my CFFI-libffi changes were merged
2014-11-06T00:57:49Z didi: resttime: Nice.
2014-11-06T00:58:02Z resttime: didi, thanks, now it works on SBCL Windows :D
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2014-11-06T00:58:18Z didi: :-D
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2014-11-06T01:21:22Z Xach: resttime: time to urge a new release! quicklisp is nigh!
2014-11-06T01:21:41Z Xach: hmm
2014-11-06T01:21:44Z Xach could test git
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2014-11-06T01:23:36Z Xach: resttime: cffi-libffi doesn't build on linux for me any more
2014-11-06T01:23:46Z Xach tries to get a good backtrace or something
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2014-11-06T01:24:47Z resttime: D:
2014-11-06T01:26:31Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144290 -- i don't understand it
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2014-11-06T01:27:44Z Xach: ahh
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2014-11-06T01:27:57Z Xach: it's invoking "gcc" (list "-m64" "" ...)
2014-11-06T01:28:10Z Xach: and gcc is complaining: "gcc: error: : No such file or directory"
2014-11-06T01:28:20Z Xach: resttime: make any sense to you?
2014-11-06T01:28:52Z resttime: might be problems with some other commits
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2014-11-06T01:29:21Z resttime: try undoing commits made on November 3
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2014-11-06T01:34:44Z Xach: the pkg-config stuff?
2014-11-06T01:35:32Z resttime: yeah
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2014-11-06T01:37:56Z Eno_: hi. i have a lisp program that only seems to work on some systems but not others. the version of sbcl is the same. when it doesn't work, i get this message "There is no applicable method for the generic function" ( http://pastebin.com/M3VwzZUZ ). i'm not a lisp programmer. i don't know where to start trying to solve this.
2014-11-06T01:38:36Z Eno_: does anyone have any idea what i should investigate?
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2014-11-06T01:39:13Z Eno_: also, the program, i recall, was not working on this computer a while back, but now seems to be working...
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2014-11-06T01:40:32Z Xach: Eno_: There is not enough info in that paste for me to guess at the problem. Where did you get the program? Maybe looking at the code would help.
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2014-11-06T01:41:00Z Eno_: an ex-student of my uni. there is a lot of code, it's huge
2014-11-06T01:41:45Z Eno_: i've gone as far as to keep a directory of the OS where it worked and i just chroot , and it works
2014-11-06T01:41:56Z Xach: Eno_: Oh. Well, that error about the generic function is kind of a generic error. It just means that the function got called with an unexpected and unhandled value as argument.
2014-11-06T01:42:36Z Eno_: yeah.. thought as much
2014-11-06T01:43:45Z Xach: How's your budget? I know some top Lisp nerds who could help sort it out!
2014-11-06T01:43:47Z Eno_: but why would the identical program work on some systems but not on others?
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2014-11-06T01:43:59Z drewc: Eno_: you could type in backtrace and possibly see what function is calling it with the unhandled value...
2014-11-06T01:44:01Z Eno_: haha i'm broke
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2014-11-06T01:44:54Z Eno_: oh, i see
2014-11-06T01:45:00Z Vivitron: if the penn package isn't from the student's code make sure that whatever provides it is the same version
2014-11-06T01:45:02Z drewc: I am not within the budget at all, so I will simply say "because systems are different and the program identical" :)
2014-11-06T01:45:15Z Eno_: it's part of his code
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2014-11-06T01:51:47Z resttime: Xach: try this (asdf/run-program:run-program '("pkg-config" "libffi" "--cflags") :output :string)
2014-11-06T01:53:27Z Xach: resttime: I get a list of two characters, #\Space and #\Newline, as the primary value
2014-11-06T01:53:34Z Xach: with additional values of NIL and 0
2014-11-06T01:53:34Z resttime: hmmm
2014-11-06T01:53:43Z Xach: sorry, a STRING of two characters
2014-11-06T01:54:05Z resttime: what's a library you can test with pkg-config that you know is correctly configured?
2014-11-06T01:55:00Z leo2007: any cure for this sbcl build error: https://bpaste.net/show/b7c9095a512d
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2014-11-06T01:55:07Z resttime: that pkg-config normally works with in regular commandline $>./pkg-config PACKAGE --cflags
2014-11-06T01:55:51Z Xach: resttime: Maybe it requires no additional cflags? pkg-config libffi --libs outputs "-lffi"
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2014-11-06T01:56:53Z Sgeo: Are there any CL implementations with both a Clozure CL save-application like function (e.g. creates a binary based off a function in the running image but does not close down the image) and tree-shaking to be applied to it?
2014-11-06T01:57:25Z Sgeo: Would that even work out well? eval means need access to everything, even if eval itself can never be called... although I don't plan to allow access to the REPL so maybe not
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2014-11-06T01:57:30Z Xach: Sgeo: LispWorks, sort of. I would guess allegro cl also.
2014-11-06T01:57:44Z Xach: Sgeo: I don't know if it's shaking as much as manual pruning, though.
2014-11-06T01:57:46Z Sgeo: Hmm. Was hoping for a non-proprietary CL
2014-11-06T01:58:11Z Sgeo: Looking to make another implementation of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braintrust
2014-11-06T02:01:55Z Xach: It would be nice if someone would do the required work and give it away, maybe.
2014-11-06T02:02:04Z Xach: Really nice if someone paid for it and then let it be given away, too!
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2014-11-06T02:13:12Z resttime: Xach, nah that doesn't seem to be a problem
2014-11-06T02:13:38Z resttime: code looks correct to me at pretty much every angle
2014-11-06T02:14:07Z resttime: i guess raise an issue?
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2014-11-06T02:14:23Z Xach: I added a comment to the commit.
2014-11-06T02:14:28Z resttime: maybe asdf/run-program:run-program has a problem
2014-11-06T02:15:21Z Xach: So empty output from pkg-config is not the piece producing the "" in the args to run-program?
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2014-11-06T02:20:25Z resttime: oh I was thinking that pkg-config wasn't giving an empty output
2014-11-06T02:20:42Z resttime: but run-program was
2014-11-06T02:20:52Z resttime: was that line of reasoning
2014-11-06T02:21:13Z Xach: ah
2014-11-06T02:22:04Z resttime: !! actually to test that you can use %invoke i think
2014-11-06T02:22:54Z ack006: hmm, while working on the swank-js problems, i just found out that several slime contribs are still using unrenamed destructuring-bind: slime-fuzzy.el, slime-cl-indent.el,
2014-11-06T02:22:56Z resttime: %invoke is run-program except gives 2 values '(PROCESS-EXIT-CODE OUTPUT)
2014-11-06T02:23:39Z resttime: err 2 values as function return, not list that is
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2014-11-06T02:24:41Z resttime: try inside the cffi package (%invoke "pkg-config" '("libffi" "--c-flags"))
2014-11-06T02:25:01Z ack006: and most importantly, slime-repl.el too
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2014-11-06T02:25:19Z resttime: #'%invoke definitely works with returning output
2014-11-06T02:25:35Z ack006: oops wrong channel
2014-11-06T02:26:55Z dim: I might have a pgloader.exe for 32 bits windows 7 in a moment ;-)
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2014-11-06T02:27:16Z resttime: if that doesn't work properly, then there's probably something wrong with pkg-config, it's not setup correctly on your system, or something like that
2014-11-06T02:27:36Z resttime: "it's" referring to the libffi package
2014-11-06T02:27:59Z resttime: but that seems unlikely since it's installed with Debian package manager
2014-11-06T02:29:06Z resttime: oh, read liamh's message on the commit
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2014-11-06T02:44:26Z Eno_: what is #T""
2014-11-06T02:45:00Z Xach: Eno_: that isn't part of the standard. the program must have added new syntax for that (it isn't too hard to do in common lisp)
2014-11-06T02:45:12Z Eno_: ah
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2014-11-06T02:45:42Z Eno_:  i printed something and it said that
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2014-11-06T03:12:02Z leo2007: I have stumpwm installed via quicklisp but I haven't figured out how to actually use it. Ideas?
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2014-11-06T03:12:28Z leo2007: I need a line in .Xclients to activate the wm. which one should it be?
2014-11-06T03:12:50Z Xach has never tried stumpwm
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2014-11-06T03:16:38Z cy is now known as cyan
2014-11-06T03:16:49Z cyan is now known as cy
2014-11-06T03:17:10Z zRecursive: leo2007: I added "exec $HOME/bin/dwm" in ~/.xinitrc
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2014-11-06T03:19:44Z leo2007: zRecursive: the intention is to use stumpwm, how will that help?
2014-11-06T03:21:08Z zRecursive: exec #HOME/bin/stumpwm
2014-11-06T03:21:58Z leo2007: zRecursive: I see, so building the stumpwm binary is still needed? I was hoping that setting sbcl to quickload :stumpwm everything will just work.
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2014-11-06T03:25:23Z leo2007: Xach: I have been using gnome in past years but just upgraded to centos7 and the default compositing window manager gives me a broken display over vnc.
2014-11-06T03:26:01Z zRecursive: then you can build a stumpwm image using SBCL. But i suggest using CCL/CLISP which will produce smaller image.
2014-11-06T03:26:03Z leo2007: The bug is either in gnome-shell or the video driver, sadly I don't know how to fix it.
2014-11-06T03:27:14Z leo2007: zRecursive: OK, I'll try ccl.
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2014-11-06T03:31:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-11-06T16:49:03Z 
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: ccl-logbot cabaire lduros gravicappa ehu foom miql wheelsucker gingerale ndrei cy rx14 BitPuffin k-stz ahungry_ bullone effy munksgaard stepnem vaporatorius tesuji Sgeo duggiefresh Nizumzen TDog oleo drdanmaku jlarocco thawes madrik zacharias gabot Karl_Dscc isis__ froggey ovenpasta schjetne dilated_dinosaur yeticry quazimodo DrCode urandom__ MrWoohoo wizzo Shinmera cmack``` DGASAU hardenedapple ggole harish zxq9 Amaan moore33 c74d LoicLisp whartung ggVGc
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: swflint prxq CrazyWoods yorick mishoo bool_ mrSpec araujo theos kushal joneshf-laptop ananna PuercoPop slyrus sshirokov keen____________ zeitue msx Longlius funnel drewc heddwch yrk joast wooden Jesin edgar-rft Nshag cpt_nemo john-mcaleely cibs cracauer mathrick tbarletz pjb manfoo7 jayne misv cpc26_ nightshade427 psy_ schoppenhauer gniourf Ober_ Vutral splittist killmaster snafuchs ans bb010g_ fe[nl]ix abbe gigetoo njsg Ralt codeburg hiyosi Grue` dmiles
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: pyon wasamasa __main__ otwieracz hitecnologys bjorkintosh GuilOooo duper joga copec karswell tadni thomas xristos impulse clop2 socksy nand1 Posterdati munge ruste theBlackDragon vlnx s00pcan samebchase kyl kbtr jbf````` sword White_Flame Soft Subfusc sol___ mindCrime_ spacebat surrounder j_king specbot sauerkrause aerique farhaven faheem_ eazar001 ski Patzy srcerer hugod mutley89 yano girrig l3thal gf3 billstclair _5kg Kruppe DeadTrickster wilfredh jdz
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: mal_ karbak Hydan ahungry Jubb chameco baetheus sellout ThePhoeron asedeno angavrilov_ Natch heurist rick-monster rtoym phadthai fikusz ck_ vsync TrafficMan Bike tessier AntiSpamMeta zeroish hellome peterhil Intensity rak[1] acieroid Khisanth ozzloy Vivitron mikaelj minion xenophon` Denommus eli nhanH Neet devon jackdaniel kanru joneshf Xach AeroNotix Colleen alpha- nisstyre flip214 mband cmatei Ranis lemoinem troydm brucem Zag sivoais Riviera gko kjeldahl
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: backupthrick cyraxjoe TristamWrk gz_ grungier gluegadget endou_____ victor_lowther__ superjudge nicdev mingvs pillton Kabaka cyphase _d3f eMBee jsnell gendl j0ni maxpeck axion luis capitaomorte dlowe sjl vert2 bambams ered ecraven sav p4nd4m4n klltkr CoverSlide segmond mtd ggherdov Amadiro aksatac vhost- ivan\ housel diginet Blkt zymurgy milosn Takumo bend3r tali713 emma pchrist lpaste xorpse kalzz drdo birk SHODAN rvchangue edran peccu2 oGMo eee-blt
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: someone Anarch akkad renard_ josteink ssake dxtr Oddity finnrobi cods replcated necronian teiresias jasom ft clop njsg_ justinmcp_ fionnan_ xebd` ramus aap alchemis7 joshe |3b| mearnsh eagleflo Fade gregburd Adeon gensym s_e Tordek sid_cyph1r z0d setheus Krystof uber dan64 byte48 Borbus honkfestival ferada rvirding_ galdor bcoburn tkd sfa shwouchk stoned sbryant reb cosmicexplorer patric stux|RC-only Tristam redline6561 bege ``Erik p_l drmeister arrsim
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: d4gg4d____ TheMoonMaster ircbrowse antoszka guaqua newcup yauz K1rk fmu beppu lifenoodles inklesspen daimrod viaken H4ns jtz BlastHardcheese wchun Neptu micro^ eak_ clog cross GGMethos InvalidCo dim les Mandus zbigniew tstc yeltzooo rotty_ sigjuice benny p_l|backup sytse djinni` nitro_idiot felideon ttm stokachu cmbntr_ tomaw nightfly loke tvaalen cwandrews hyoyoung_ Zhivago alexherbo2 oconnore malglim wormphlegm johs pok quasisane stopbit qbit tokenrove
2014-11-06T16:49:03Z names: mood
2014-11-06T16:49:47Z ecraven: Grue`: how are you starting your web-app? just "sbcl myfile.lisp&"?
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2014-11-06T16:52:03Z oGMo: ecraven: usually one loads the system, and calls a start function
2014-11-06T16:52:09Z Grue`: oh there's a shell script that installs a service
2014-11-06T16:52:22Z Grue`: basically read this http://blog.ponto-dot.com/2010/08/15/setting-up-common-lisp-on-a-web-server/
2014-11-06T16:52:36Z ecraven: Grue`: thanks!
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2014-11-06T16:59:02Z Grue`: ecraven: see https://gist.github.com/tshatrov/f6bd85aa18d1e84d3cf6
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2014-11-06T17:06:54Z AeroNotix: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww sysv
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2014-11-06T17:09:06Z Shinmera: Is it linux elitism time again?
2014-11-06T17:10:01Z moore33: bsd nostalgia
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2014-11-06T17:21:17Z ecraven: Grue`: is init.lisp from ichiran-web online anywhere?
2014-11-06T17:21:48Z Grue`: didn't I post it earlier?
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2014-11-06T17:23:30Z Grue`: anyway that part is all pretty much copypasted from the article I linked, which is why I'm sharing it; the code itself is closed source
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2014-11-06T18:02:45Z devon: Anyone available for some network hacking?
2014-11-06T18:04:03Z Xach: devon: what kind of network hacking?
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2014-11-06T18:06:03Z Grue`: with GUI written in Visual Basic
2014-11-06T18:06:27Z joga: :)
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2014-11-06T18:06:36Z devon: Establish a SSH or TLS or whatever connection as a two way character stream in CCL.
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2014-11-06T18:08:09Z fe[nl]ix: devon: the first is pretty easy. just spawn /usr/bin/ssh
2014-11-06T18:08:23Z gabriel_laddel: I'm working on a NixOS box I've been setting up as a CL-only environment. Downloading iolib via quicklisp currently throws an error, as the groveler can't libfixposix. I installed libfixposix, restarted the build and it still throws. I've no understanding of g++ (the external process called by the iolib groveler) and would like to maintain my innocence if at all possible. Is anyone familiar with iolib & g++ and know
2014-11-06T18:08:23Z gabriel_laddel: s of a quick hack to point the groveler it at the correct sources? Anything goes really - copying the sources of libfixposix from A to B, monkey patching iolib etc.
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2014-11-06T18:09:54Z fe[nl]ix: gabriel_laddel: what do you mean you installed libfixposix ?
2014-11-06T18:09:55Z pjb: Good questions.  I've avoided the groveller, having used swig to generate my CFFI interfaces.  g++ is a C++ compiler, so it shouldn't be too hard to master.
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2014-11-06T18:11:12Z gabriel_laddel: fe[nl]ix: I downloaded it using the nixos package manager. I should note that it 'just works' on ubuntu when you do the ~same.
2014-11-06T18:11:44Z devon: Yeah, you can establish a two way connection to a child process running an SSH client if you like.  Send CV if interested.
2014-11-06T18:11:56Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: "g++ is a C++ compiler, so it shouldn't be too hard to master." this is a joke, right?
2014-11-06T18:12:08Z fe[nl]ix: gabriel_laddel: I don't think that iolib will work easily on nixos
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2014-11-06T18:12:36Z fe[nl]ix: or any cffi library, for that matter
2014-11-06T18:12:45Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: IIRC, GNU ls  still has more options than g++…
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2014-11-06T18:13:11Z gabriel_laddel: fe[nl]ix: care to explain why? I've no (blessedly) experience with C/C++ toolchains.
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2014-11-06T18:14:44Z fe[nl]ix: gabriel_laddel: AFAIK, nixos deals with multiple installations of the same library by hard-coding the full paths in the depending binaries
2014-11-06T18:14:56Z fe[nl]ix: using ld's rpath
2014-11-06T18:15:31Z fe[nl]ix: whereas CFFI basically uses dlopen() wuth just the library's soname hoping that the linker will find it in some global namespace
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2014-11-06T18:16:51Z gabriel_laddel: Thank you.
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2014-11-06T18:22:09Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: hmmm. perhaps you find the C/C++ worldview less insane than I.
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2014-11-06T18:30:06Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: I don't say for C++ itself, but as batch compilers, gcc or g++ are not bad.
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2014-11-06T18:31:27Z foom: pjb: haha, gnu ls isn't *that* crazy.
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2014-11-06T19:11:43Z dim: ok, trying to run pgloader on windows is helping me a lot in understanding the pathname API in CL
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2014-11-06T19:32:27Z dim: how easy/hard is it to have SBCL with --compress-core option on windows?
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2014-11-06T19:34:36Z stassats: on what scale?
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2014-11-06T19:47:20Z jasom: can I specify a toplevel function for asdf:program-op?
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2014-11-06T20:01:49Z dim: stassats: existing SBCL binary is easy, building is (supposed to be) hard
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2014-11-06T20:05:18Z stassats: you have to build and you need to lug the library around, unless you manage to static link it
2014-11-06T20:06:07Z dim: so it's too hard for me today
2014-11-06T20:06:27Z dim: I'm not that desperate for it, I just wanted to offer a windows experimental binary
2014-11-06T20:06:36Z dim: I'll get there later
2014-11-06T20:08:50Z stassats: there is a proposal for an alternative compression
2014-11-06T20:09:32Z dim: now that I'm playing with windows I get to really appreciate make-pathname's :defaults
2014-11-06T20:09:44Z dim: alternative being?
2014-11-06T20:10:32Z stassats: something different
2014-11-06T20:10:50Z stassats: (ok, i'm too lazy to link it)
2014-11-06T20:10:55Z dim: oh, undecided yet I presume
2014-11-06T20:11:15Z stassats: i think it works
2014-11-06T20:14:44Z Xach: devon: if you're up for getting someone to write it for you, a support incident with Clozure might work for you. an email to info@clozure.com can kick it off.
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2014-11-06T20:38:54Z dim: so, it turns out it's much easier to "port" pgloader to windows (binary image preparation with buildapp included) than to try running SQL Server
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2014-11-06T20:41:37Z Xach: are those the only two choices?
2014-11-06T20:42:54Z Grue`: why would it be hard to run sql server on windows, doesn't it run *only* on windows?
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2014-11-06T20:49:39Z Shinmera: Sql server is a pain no matter what.
2014-11-06T20:49:49Z dim: well I'm ask to add SQL Server as a source for pgloader migration
2014-11-06T20:50:09Z dim: so I get to play with windows, SQL Server, SBCL and pgloader
2014-11-06T20:50:15Z dim: and it's not a nice story
2014-11-06T20:50:24Z dim: apart from the SBCL/pgloader side
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2014-11-06T20:57:42Z dim: thinking about it, that's another task that's being made easier by CL, portability in between (at least some) OSes
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2014-11-06T21:20:53Z ecraven: would it be possible to make decomposable presentations? as in presenting a list of objects, but also somehow making each object itself (and maybe its parts recursively) presentations, that you can interact with separately or together?
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2014-11-06T21:56:08Z gabriel_laddel: ecraven: mcclim already has this.
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2014-11-06T21:58:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can run code in SLIME that I've loaded but I can't refer to it through its package even after I've loaded the entire file. Is there any common mistake that would cause this?
2014-11-06T21:58:21Z ecraven: gabriel_laddel: has work on mcclim stopped? "recent news" are from 8 years ago
2014-11-06T21:58:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: Relevant, code https://github.com/Halfwake/petit-test/blob/master/petit-test.lisp
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2014-11-06T22:00:23Z Grue`: what do you mean by "refer"?
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2014-11-06T22:01:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: (test t) works but (petit-test:test t) throws an error
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2014-11-06T22:01:57Z pjb: they're interned in the cl-user package, not in the petit-test package!
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2014-11-06T22:02:07Z antoszka: You're missing in-package
2014-11-06T22:02:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: OH
2014-11-06T22:02:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well, I feel dumb
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2014-11-06T22:02:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks. Glad I got it figured it out now.
2014-11-06T22:02:40Z pjb: Why don't you feel less dumb now?
2014-11-06T22:03:01Z gabriel_laddel: ecraven: McCLim is in hibernation. It mostly works but there are still a few rough edges. I'm building a CLIM application in it right now and it's better than anything else out there (js frameworks, Qt, Swing, JavaFX, ScalaFX, Tcl/tk etc.)
2014-11-06T22:03:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb, I was ignorant of my own ignorance.
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2014-11-06T22:03:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: Now I know that I know nothing.
2014-11-06T22:03:48Z antoszka: gabriel_laddel: which backend are you using for your app?
2014-11-06T22:03:53Z gabriel_laddel: CLX
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2014-11-06T22:04:42Z gabriel_laddel: imo OpenGL, Cocoa etc. backends are never going to work. this isn't mcclim's fault, but because they suck.
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2014-11-06T22:04:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: SLIME was giving me the autocomplete too, so that threw me off.
2014-11-06T22:05:00Z gabriel_laddel: OpenGL in particular is a complete and utter disaster.
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2014-11-06T22:05:02Z antoszka: Right.
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2014-11-06T22:05:15Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: but you know to use in-package now.  So I'd expect you're less dumb.
2014-11-06T22:05:20Z pjb: You should feel it!
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2014-11-06T22:05:54Z antoszka: gabriel_laddel: What are the problems with those? Just unfinished? In a non-working state?
2014-11-06T22:06:04Z antoszka: gabriel_laddel: Or something more fundamentally broken?
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2014-11-06T22:06:14Z gabriel_laddel: antoszka: OpenGL is fundamentally broken.
2014-11-06T22:06:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's the weird thing about learning. Before I know something I think knowing it will give me some kind of profound understanding. (macros/lisp/first-class-continuations) But then when I understand it, the magic goes away.
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2014-11-06T22:06:38Z antoszka: well, tru :)
2014-11-06T22:06:41Z antoszka: true*
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2014-11-06T22:06:55Z gabriel_laddel: for all I know, the McCLim backends for opengl et all work - never tried them.
2014-11-06T22:07:13Z gabriel_laddel: I use CLX anyways, so never needed to.
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2014-11-06T22:07:47Z gabriel_laddel: however there are things in the CLIM spec that it's clear are never going to map to things like Cocoa eg, designs as inks.
2014-11-06T22:09:34Z gabriel_laddel: ecraven: I'm going afk, but as a parting note - I highly recommend mcclim, it is phenomenal.
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2014-11-06T22:17:52Z xristos: 17:04 <gabriel_laddel> imo OpenGL, Cocoa etc. backends are never going to work. this isn't mcclim's fault, but because
2014-11-06T22:17:53Z xristos:                        they suck.
2014-11-06T22:18:09Z xristos: ^^^ this is why mcclim is in the gutter :)
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2014-11-06T22:24:09Z pjb: xristos: you don't have to use Cocoa widgets.  Just use the MSWindow for their GraphicsContext.
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2014-11-06T23:57:26Z jasom: should I try clim again?  Last time I tried to follow an example and clx barfed all over the place
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