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2014-10-29T02:50:51Z Bike: use if instead 2014-10-29T02:50:52Z Bike: or cond 2014-10-29T02:50:53Z Zhivago: If you want an else, why aren't you using if? :) 2014-10-29T02:51:52Z JokesOnYou77: Typically I use cond for almost everything, but sometimes unless expresses the intent better than (if (not 2014-10-29T02:55:36Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: no. there is no way to do that. 2014-10-29T02:57:25Z Bike: i mean, unless with an else is just... if but backwards 2014-10-29T02:58:12Z H4ns: well, using cond everywhere except when unless is better also does not seem like a very tasteful discrimination. 2014-10-29T02:59:35Z JokesOnYou77: I get it lol. And I was exaggerating. I use them all as needed but I thought it might be nice to have an else clause with unless. 2014-10-29T02:59:40Z Ryan_Burnside: You could always use your own macro to make your own conditional form. 2014-10-29T02:59:52Z H4ns: Ryan_Burnside: speaking of tasteless. 2014-10-29T02:59:58Z Ryan_Burnside waves 2014-10-29T03:00:03Z joshe: sometimes, the best macro is the one you decide not to write 2014-10-29T03:01:21Z Ryan_Burnside: I toyed around the other day with a form that was like if/else but added a 3rd mystery "maybe" clause that had chance of happening. 2014-10-29T03:01:24Z Ryan_Burnside: Just for the lulz 2014-10-29T03:01:32Z Xach left #lisp 2014-10-29T03:01:56Z joshe: I agree with Xach 2014-10-29T03:02:53Z H4ns: joshe: in what way? 2014-10-29T03:03:29Z joshe: he parted the channel immediately after Ryan_Burnside's comment 2014-10-29T03:04:08Z Ryan_Burnside: It was just a novelty. :) 2014-10-29T03:04:13Z Ryan_Burnside: A personal amusement. 2014-10-29T03:04:16Z JokesOnYou77: So, now that I've got everyone's attention, I have another question. I need to parse a file of this form: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144192 I want to grab the IDs, lemmas, and then the actual words in the instance tags. I was going to try and figure out cl-xml, but looking at it again I'm not sure that's actualyl the way to go 2014-10-29T03:04:52Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: i'd use cxm 2014-10-29T03:04:55Z H4ns: cxml 2014-10-29T03:05:09Z H4ns: cxml-stp in particular, for this type of work. 2014-10-29T03:05:18Z nyef: ... You're ONLY interested in the INSTANCE tags, and they all have the same format? 2014-10-29T03:05:30Z JokesOnYou77: nyef, yeah 2014-10-29T03:05:42Z nyef: For something that restricted, I'd use a regexp. 2014-10-29T03:06:53Z JokesOnYou77: I was considering regex. But, as with macros, sometimes the best regex it the one you don't write, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't reinventing the wheel. 2014-10-29T03:07:43Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: for parsing xml, the best way is to use an xml parsing library 2014-10-29T03:07:53Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:08:15Z JokesOnYou77: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454 2014-10-29T03:08:27Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: but i would agree with nyef that if you're just interested in one particular string type and you're sufficiently familiar with regular expressions, they might be sufficient here. 2014-10-29T03:09:34Z nyef: I've used regexps to parse the xml response from some web apis, because it was far, far simpler to just regexp it than to involve an xml parser especially when there was no DTD, the documentation didn't match what the server actually did, and so on. 2014-10-29T03:09:40Z JokesOnYou77: I think that may end up being what I do. I just wanted to make sure I at least looked at everything first 2014-10-29T03:10:31Z nyef: But there are cases where an XML parser is the right thing to use. The trick is knowing which cases do, which cases don't, and which cases will be a pain to switch over if it turns out that you picked wrong the first time. (-: 2014-10-29T03:10:33Z JokesOnYou77: I've also not used regex in lisp before. cl-ppcre i assume? 2014-10-29T03:10:41Z nyef: Yeah, cl-ppcre. 2014-10-29T03:11:20Z nyef: Don't forget to escape your backslashes, as the regexps get parsed by the lisp reader as strings first, and only afterward as regexps. 2014-10-29T03:12:47Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:13:21Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, I looked at the docs for this before and I still can't figure out how to just get my capture groups as strings. 2014-10-29T03:13:33Z JokesOnYou77: It has a lot of methods 2014-10-29T03:14:03Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: register-groups-bind would work 2014-10-29T03:14:19Z Bike: or scan-to-strings maybe 2014-10-29T03:14:23Z nyef: I'd scan-to-strings, but yeah. 2014-10-29T03:15:35Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, thank you. Scan-to-strings looks like the thing. 2014-10-29T03:15:53Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:16:06Z nyef: "([^<]*)" might be a good first pass for a regexp. 2014-10-29T03:17:21Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:18:10Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:18:15Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-10-29T03:18:15Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:19:33Z mwsb is now known as chu 2014-10-29T03:20:10Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-29T03:20:29Z jasom: I also find the sexp based form that cl-ppcre has to be easier to remember if I'm using any obscure features (since its a workd instead of arbitrary glyphs 2014-10-29T03:20:32Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:21:01Z jasom: also much easier to correctly machine generate (I wrote a basic shell-glob to cl-ppcre converter, for example) 2014-10-29T03:21:10Z Bike: also not billions of backslashes. 2014-10-29T03:21:21Z leb joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:22:00Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:22:31Z nyef: I find that if I'm doing anything remotely clever with regexps that I build up a few automated test cases. 2014-10-29T03:22:32Z JokesOnYou77: You guys are awesome 2014-10-29T03:22:42Z nyef: Typically BEFORE writing the regexp. 2014-10-29T03:22:49Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah, a few unit tests are always good 2014-10-29T03:23:58Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T03:24:24Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:25:32Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:26:07Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:26:15Z spacebat joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:29:09Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:29:39Z Posterdati quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-10-29T03:30:01Z wglb` joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:30:13Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:31:02Z wglb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T03:32:31Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-10-29T03:33:38Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:35:04Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:40:06Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:45:47Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:45:54Z a20141028 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:49:02Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T03:50:25Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-10-29T03:57:16Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:00:41Z beach joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:00:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-10-29T04:01:01Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-10-29T04:02:16Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:06:15Z nisstyre: beach: Good news everyone! 2014-10-29T04:07:08Z pillton: Good morning beach. 2014-10-29T04:07:20Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-29T04:08:08Z pillton: beach: I was thinking about your first class global environments this morning. 2014-10-29T04:08:20Z beach: pillton: Good! And? 2014-10-29T04:09:21Z pillton: beach: Wouldn't it be possible to start a new thread with a different global environment? i.e. the lisp equivalent of a fork. 2014-10-29T04:09:29Z Ryan_Burnside quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-29T04:09:40Z beach: Yes, the global environment would be per-thread. 2014-10-29T04:09:53Z beach: ... or could be. 2014-10-29T04:09:59Z pillton: I would find that useful. 2014-10-29T04:10:05Z beach: Definitely. 2014-10-29T04:10:31Z beach: That would be good for sandboxing for instance. 2014-10-29T04:10:43Z pillton: Yeah. That is what I want. 2014-10-29T04:11:13Z beach: Also for compilation, so that the evaluation environment is different from the startup environment. 2014-10-29T04:11:35Z beach: Though that's not necessarily a different thread. 2014-10-29T04:11:45Z Niac_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:12:03Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:12:17Z jasom: but it could be, and would allow somthing like poiu to work without forking 2014-10-29T04:12:28Z jasom: or uiop or whatever it's called 2014-10-29T04:12:48Z jasom: poiu 2014-10-29T04:12:49Z pillton: beach: That too! A colleague of mine got caught out with that situation just this morning. 2014-10-29T04:13:22Z Niac quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T04:13:40Z beach: pillton: What happened? 2014-10-29T04:14:04Z beach: jasom: Yes, definitely. 2014-10-29T04:15:47Z pillton: beach: He cleared his fasl cache and was wondering why a source file was now signalling an error during compilation. 2014-10-29T04:16:06Z beach: pillton: Yes, I can see that. 2014-10-29T04:16:32Z beach: The thing is, first-class global environment won't cost anything in terms of performance. 2014-10-29T04:16:47Z jasom: Would having first-class global env inhibit any optimizatins? 2014-10-29T04:16:51Z beach: No 2014-10-29T04:17:06Z jasom: heh, I had my line 90% typed when I saw your comment 2014-10-29T04:17:33Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:17:48Z jasom: I suppose any opaque functions can arbitrarily modify the environment (within certain restrictions) 2014-10-29T04:17:58Z jasom: clhs 3.2.2.3 2014-10-29T04:17:58Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 2014-10-29T04:18:20Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:18:34Z beach: jasom: How is that related? 2014-10-29T04:19:27Z jasom: I was just commenting that it's already true that opaque functions can make modifications to the global environment, so having first-class global env wouldn't change that 2014-10-29T04:19:41Z jasom: and non-opaque ones will give some insight as to what is changed 2014-10-29T04:19:42Z beach: I see. 2014-10-29T04:19:48Z beach: Yeah. 2014-10-29T04:19:51Z beach: When code is LOADed, it gets resolved to a particular global environment. Instead of accessing functions or global values through a symbol, loaded code has a CONS cell (or two) in its static environment that contains the global value, and that CONS cell is unique for the environment. 2014-10-29T04:21:06Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:21:18Z beach: I now think this implementation of first-class global environments is worth writing a paper for ELS in London. 2014-10-29T04:22:00Z jasom: first-class lexical environments clearly has an impact on optimizations; I still think having a standardized eval-with-env wouldn't though (and every now and then would be useful). 2014-10-29T04:22:03Z beach: jasom: I am collecting arguments, and poiu would be one. I hope you don't mind including it. 2014-10-29T04:22:16Z jasom: beach: not at all 2014-10-29T04:22:26Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T04:22:59Z beach: jasom: Sorry, lost the context. All what? 2014-10-29T04:23:20Z jasom: I don't mind you including it at all. 2014-10-29T04:23:28Z beach: Oh, my bad. 2014-10-29T04:23:33Z jasom: in this case "at all" meaning "to any extent" 2014-10-29T04:23:33Z beach: I am not awake yet. 2014-10-29T04:23:40Z beach: I misread. 2014-10-29T04:23:51Z beach: jasom: Thanks. 2014-10-29T04:24:08Z jasom: it's a weird english-ism 2014-10-29T04:24:18Z beach: I know it when I am awake. :) 2014-10-29T04:25:54Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-29T04:29:28Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:29:34Z pillton: You would have the ability to revert your environment to a "safe" one. 2014-10-29T04:30:23Z beach: Yeah, not necessarily cheap to do, but possible, since a safe environment would still be around. 2014-10-29T04:30:41Z beach: Also, no big deal if you trash the environment by removing something essential. 2014-10-29T04:31:53Z pjb: Well the environment switching operation would have to be invoked from outside the current environment. This would have to be an out-of-the-band command. 2014-10-29T04:32:25Z beach: Sounds right. 2014-10-29T04:33:42Z pjb: We could still provide operations like push-environment pop-environment environment-list set-environment current-environment, but they could be considered "essential" and removed :-) 2014-10-29T04:34:32Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T04:35:03Z pillton: I really like it. Where do I send the cheque? 2014-10-29T04:35:43Z beach: Send it to pjb if he is planning to implement it. 2014-10-29T04:35:58Z beach: I already have a salary. 2014-10-29T04:36:36Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:36:41Z beach: Besides, pjb keeps iterating that this stuff requires funding. :) 2014-10-29T04:36:57Z pjb: If we're to make speedy progress, yes. 2014-10-29T04:36:59Z mikaelj: what stuff is that? 2014-10-29T04:37:05Z mikaelj: Oh, nm. This. Not his. 2014-10-29T04:38:04Z jasom: And what is Messr Bourguignon working on these days? 2014-10-29T04:38:28Z pjb: I'm working on porting Patchwork from MacOS MCL to MacOSX CCL. 2014-10-29T04:38:41Z pjb: https://gitorious.org/patchwork 2014-10-29T04:39:48Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:40:10Z beach: And it's paid work on top of that. Not bad. 2014-10-29T04:40:20Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T04:40:49Z jasom: The composition tool? 2014-10-29T04:40:57Z pjb: Yes. 2014-10-29T04:41:19Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:41:25Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-10-29T04:41:27Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:42:23Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-29T04:45:30Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:47:41Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T04:48:17Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:49:47Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:49:51Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:49:52Z ndrei__ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:51:53Z beach: pjb: Maybe you should set up an association to collect funding. 2014-10-29T04:52:38Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T04:53:53Z beach: I don't think there is an EU-wide association concept yet, so it would have to be a national one. I wonder whether donations are tax deductible across national borders in EU. 2014-10-29T04:54:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:56:30Z Ryan_Burnside joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:56:38Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T04:59:34Z beach: "La réduction d'impôt accordée aux entreprises concerne aussi bien les dons versés à un organisme établi en France que dans l'Espace économique européen (Union européenne, Islande et Norvège)." 2014-10-29T04:59:50Z huza joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:00:42Z beach: So at least the French tax authorities recognize deductions when a French entity finances an organization in another EU country. I am thinking it must be an EU-wide rule then. 2014-10-29T05:01:43Z shortCircuit__ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:01:59Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:03:12Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T05:03:35Z protist joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:04:27Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:04:31Z pjb: So the idea would be to create an ELU association, which would also have as mission to collect funds to promote and help lisp (develop lisp libraries, books, documentations, etc). With projects such as cl-posix. 2014-10-29T05:04:48Z beach: Sounds good. 2014-10-29T05:06:13Z beach: Arthur and Edi has an association, but I think they have a different purpose. 2014-10-29T05:06:16Z beach: have 2014-10-29T05:06:20Z pjb: Creating an association is cheap enough. But if at least four people coming from different environment tried/started working on some POSIX library over the year, and have not completed it exhaustively, I see it as a proof that there's no backing money. I doubt an ELU association would gather significant funds. And similarly for other projects. 2014-10-29T05:06:33Z cy quit (Quit: :q!) 2014-10-29T05:06:36Z pjb: s/year/years/ 2014-10-29T05:07:26Z beach: You may very well be right. Hard to find out without trying, though. 2014-10-29T05:08:06Z stoned is now known as Nyle 2014-10-29T05:09:58Z pjb: In any case it may still be useful to create an ELU association, and to test the matter. 2014-10-29T05:10:44Z pjb: So one more project on the list… :-/ 2014-10-29T05:10:56Z beach: I actually don't know exactly what is involved, but I have the impression it has virtually no cost associated with it, and it's easy to do. 2014-10-29T05:11:30Z pjb: Yes. Basically you need at least two people and some statuses. 2014-10-29T05:11:47Z beach: Do they have to be French citizens? 2014-10-29T05:12:02Z beach: Nah, I doubt it. 2014-10-29T05:12:03Z pjb: I don't think so. http://www.associations.gouv.fr/191-creer-votre-association.html 2014-10-29T05:12:43Z pjb: This can even be done on the internet. 2014-10-29T05:12:52Z pjb: https://mdel.mon.service-public.fr/gestion-association.html 2014-10-29T05:13:13Z beach: French administration can be efficient when it wants to. 2014-10-29T05:14:26Z pjb: The only cost corresponds to the publication on Journal Officie, which is 44 euro if the object is less than 1000 characters, 90 euro if more. 2014-10-29T05:14:46Z beach: I'll pay that, no problem. 2014-10-29T05:15:18Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:15:38Z anannie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:17:22Z beach: pillton: I suspect your donation won't be tax deductible though, since it would be an EU association. :( 2014-10-29T05:18:28Z ofosos joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:19:13Z beach: pjb: Here is a project that might attract some funding: Create a Lisp system in the form of a shared library so that applications would be small. 2014-10-29T05:19:31Z beach: Easy to do too. 2014-10-29T05:20:20Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:21:03Z beach: In fact, that's my plan for SICL. 2014-10-29T05:21:40Z Guest43668 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:21:47Z pjb: We'll have to discuss the statuses. Perhaps the people who pay will have a say in the projects that are worked on first. 2014-10-29T05:21:50Z jasom: beach: ecl? 2014-10-29T05:21:54Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-29T05:22:26Z beach: jasom: Oh, it does that already? OK. Maybe add some other conditions then. :) 2014-10-29T05:22:45Z beach: pjb: That would be polite, yes. 2014-10-29T05:23:14Z jasom: beach: how about image start times of under 500ms? 2014-10-29T05:23:22Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:23:30Z beach: jasom: Sounds easy enough. 2014-10-29T05:23:52Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:26:07Z beach: pjb: I think the English term is "by-law", maybe. 2014-10-29T05:26:10Z slyrus: not that folks don't have legitimate complaints about image size, start times, etc... but I recently ran into a problem where a rails app I wanted to use wouldn't work on a system with a lowly single gigabyte of RAM. just sayin'... 2014-10-29T05:26:35Z Guest43668 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:26:36Z Zhivago: Perhapse byelaw? 2014-10-29T05:27:22Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:28:27Z beach: slyrus: It's one of those things are usually not a problem in practice, but for some reason some people use it to add to their list of arguments against Lisp. The easiest way to cope with the situation is to remove the perceived problem. 2014-10-29T05:28:41Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:29:53Z H4ns: beach: if you remove that "problem", they will whine about something else. 2014-10-29T05:29:59Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:30:07Z nyef: Whiners gotta whine. 2014-10-29T05:30:10Z Zhivago: Just compile to javascript, and they'll be happy. 2014-10-29T05:30:36Z beach: H4ns: Sure. But the list will be smaller. 2014-10-29T05:30:46Z beach: or, "shorter", rather. 2014-10-29T05:31:06Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-10-29T05:31:07Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:33:09Z nyef: Ugh. Gone 1:30. Why am I still awake? 2014-10-29T05:33:11Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2014-10-29T05:34:27Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:34:43Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:35:52Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:37:50Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:41:10Z xyjprc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:41:19Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:41:57Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-10-29T05:44:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:47:45Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T05:48:11Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:48:39Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:49:06Z jusss: hi all, who can give a example for how to use macro to make macro ? 2014-10-29T05:49:10Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-10-29T05:50:16Z beach: jusss: Easy. DEFMACRO is a macro, so whenever you write a global macro, you use a macro. 2014-10-29T05:50:18Z jusss: recursion in macro 2014-10-29T05:51:01Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T05:52:11Z jusss: when it should use macro not a function ? 2014-10-29T05:52:12Z jasom: Good news: I've got common lisp running in the browser; bad news, the startup time is 7500 seconds 2014-10-29T05:52:41Z jasom: jusss: generally speaking write a macro when you can't do it with a function 2014-10-29T05:53:56Z jusss: jasom: I don't get this case still now 2014-10-29T05:54:10Z jusss: I'm a newbie 2014-10-29T05:54:50Z pjb: Macros can be used to implement syntactic abstraction or metalinguistic abstraction. 2014-10-29T05:55:51Z H4ns: jusss: if you want to learn how to write macros, you could read "on lisp". it has great coverage. once you're done with the book, though, you should understand that it is not an instructional text and that you'll want to write macros all that often. 2014-10-29T05:56:04Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T05:56:10Z pjb: For example, assume you have a high order function such as: (defun call-repeat (n thunk) (unless (zerop n) (funcall thunk) (repeat (1- n) thunk))) 2014-10-29T05:56:15Z pjb: For example, assume you have a high order function such as: (defun call-repeat (n thunk) (unless (zerop n) (funcall thunk) (call-repeat (1- n) thunk))) 2014-10-29T05:56:17Z jasom: jusss: only a very small percentage of lisp code is macros. 2014-10-29T05:56:24Z H4ns: jusss: furthermore, many people agree that most macros follow one of a set of familiar patterns. 2014-10-29T05:56:35Z pjb: using it is boring: (call-repeat 3 (lambda () (print 'hi))) (call-repeat 3 (lambda () (print 'lo))) 2014-10-29T05:56:49Z pjb: Everytime you use it you have to write (call-repeat … (lambda () …)). 2014-10-29T05:57:07Z H4ns: jusss: for example, a typical macro is named with-foo and deals with resource allocation for some foo instance that is bound in its body. 2014-10-29T05:57:10Z pjb: You can abstract away th is syntax by writing: (defmacro repeat (n &body body) `(call-repeat ,n (lambda () ,@body))) 2014-10-29T05:57:34Z pjb: so now you just write what changes from one use to the other: (repeat 3 (print 'hi)) (repeat 4 (read-line)) 2014-10-29T05:57:58Z pjb: The example H4ns falls under this syntactic abstraction. 2014-10-29T05:58:21Z pjb: What with- macros cover, is the repeatitive use of unwind-protect and let forms. 2014-10-29T05:58:51Z pjb: Now, the metalinguistic abstraction let you create whole new languages, with new semantics. 2014-10-29T05:59:31Z pjb: For example you could write (with-infix 3 + 4 * (5 + 2)) in which the body of with-infix is interpreted with infix parsing rules instead of the usual sexp syntax and semantics. 2014-10-29T06:00:21Z ananna joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:00:21Z ananna quit (Changing host) 2014-10-29T06:00:21Z ananna joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:00:28Z Ryan_Burnside: pjb interesting use. Never though about that. 2014-10-29T06:01:23Z Ryan_Burnside: A non s-expression lisp with parens...strange 2014-10-29T06:01:54Z pjb: Notice that it's still read as a sexp. only the interpretation of this sexp is not the one provided by EVAL, but the one provided by WITH-INFIX. 2014-10-29T06:01:56Z jasom: you are still limited to expressions that the lisp reader can parse though (reader macros are the way around *that* restriction) 2014-10-29T06:02:25Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: if you want to read a syntax that doesn't correspond to lisp syntax, you have to use reader macros for that. 2014-10-29T06:03:22Z pjb: For example if you want to read something like: switch value 1) print one 2) print two 3) print three ; you cannot do that with macros, because parentheses are unbalanced. 2014-10-29T06:03:22Z Ryan_Burnside: I recall a friend doing the reverse in python, parsing s-expressions into the language itself for evaluation. 2014-10-29T06:03:52Z pjb: But you could write a reader macro on #\[ and write [switch value 1) print one 2) print two 3) print three]. 2014-10-29T06:03:59Z jasom: Ryan_Burnside: the LOOP macro is a common example of metalinguistic abstraction 2014-10-29T06:04:15Z Ryan_Burnside: LOOP and FORMAT are very nice. 2014-10-29T06:04:28Z pjb: (loop for i = 1 to 10 do (print i)) vs. (do ((i 1 (1+ i))) ((>= i 10)) (print i)) 2014-10-29T06:04:40Z slyrus: beach: fair enough, but other systems aren't much better! 2014-10-29T06:05:12Z jasom: FORMAT implements its own language by requiring it to be embedded in a string though. 2014-10-29T06:05:35Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:05:49Z jasom: and all of its arguments are evaluated according to standard lisp semantics 2014-10-29T06:05:56Z Ryan_Burnside: I'm sure the fully expanded macros for those are pretty scary stuff. 2014-10-29T06:06:28Z pjb: Not necessarily. 2014-10-29T06:06:41Z pjb: But compilers are not scared easily anyways. :-) 2014-10-29T06:06:58Z leb quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-10-29T06:08:17Z jasom: (macroexpand '(loop for i from 1 to 10 do (print i))) <-- looks pretty straightforward to me 2014-10-29T06:08:24Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-29T06:08:35Z Zhivago: For simple cases, you can expect simple output. :) 2014-10-29T06:08:41Z Zhivago: Try something more exciting. 2014-10-29T06:09:19Z jasom: Zhivago: I'm just pointing out to Ryan_Burnside that it's not as scary as one might think 2014-10-29T06:09:22Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T06:09:48Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:10:09Z Zhivago: (macroexpand '(loop for i from 1 to 10 collecting i)) 2014-10-29T06:12:17Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-29T06:12:51Z Ryan_Burnside: Zhivago, yeah that is more like it. 2014-10-29T06:14:03Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T06:15:19Z Ryan_Burnside: #:LOOP-LIST-HEAD-736 is that an internal data structure? 2014-10-29T06:15:36Z jasom: #:foo is a gensym 2014-10-29T06:15:38Z pjb: It's a symbol. 2014-10-29T06:15:55Z jasom: or mor precisely an uninterned symbol (which is usually generated in macros via gensym) 2014-10-29T06:16:26Z jusss: pjb: (defmacro bla (n) `(defun foo (m) ...)) is good ? make a function by macro 2014-10-29T06:16:38Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T06:16:59Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:18:14Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:18:21Z beach: slyrus: That argument doesn't seem to work on people who have already decided that there is something wrong with Lisp. 2014-10-29T06:18:24Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T06:18:36Z Vutral_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T06:20:00Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T06:20:04Z baetheus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:20:08Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-10-29T06:20:35Z Ryan_Burnside: beach, They just suffer from SPS or Scary Parens Syndrome. 2014-10-29T06:21:20Z loz joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:21:41Z beach: Ryan_Burnside: I actually think it has deeper psychological reasons: http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html 2014-10-29T06:22:11Z Ryan_Burnside: Give me a few to read this. 2014-10-29T06:22:14Z Ryan_Burnside: Quit a page there. 2014-10-29T06:22:19Z beach: jasom: Lisp in the browser? Does it compile to Javascript? 2014-10-29T06:22:44Z beach: jasom: So 2 hours to start? 2014-10-29T06:23:17Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T06:23:56Z brucem: beach: hmm, I'm working on item #3 in the first bullet list in that essay. 2014-10-29T06:23:59Z jasom: beach: abcl running in a JVM implemented in javascript 2014-10-29T06:24:10Z pjb: jusss: possibly. In general you want to give the name of the function with (or derive it from) a parameter of the macro. 2014-10-29T06:24:26Z jasom: Startup completed in 7536.373 seconds. 2014-10-29T06:24:27Z beach: jasom: Wow! Amazing! 2014-10-29T06:24:34Z jasom: yeah 2 hours 2014-10-29T06:24:38Z Zhivago: A more fundamental issue is probably this -- new languages have mined most of the valuable parts of lisp already. 2014-10-29T06:24:45Z beach: brucem: Good, good! :) 2014-10-29T06:25:01Z Zhivago: but CL hasn't managed to divest itself of its crud, or mined other languages for their valuable parts. 2014-10-29T06:25:11Z phao_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:25:19Z Zhivago: Which gives an increasingly poor ratio of value to crud for CL. 2014-10-29T06:25:21Z brucem: beach: but for things emitting native code with DWARF debug info for now. 2014-10-29T06:25:35Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-10-29T06:25:42Z Zhivago: Even C++ has lexical closures, these days. :) 2014-10-29T06:26:03Z Ryan_Burnside: They do keep trying to get around strong typing with templates. 2014-10-29T06:26:05Z phao quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T06:26:08Z beach: brucem: Sure, it's a start. 2014-10-29T06:26:40Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping 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People like Dijkstra, Hoare, Arsaac. 2014-10-29T10:40:50Z harish joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:41:01Z protist: pjb: minion is cool :D 2014-10-29T10:41:05Z protist: pjb: I see 2014-10-29T10:41:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T10:42:30Z Grue`: protist: you mean hash table? that's a common way to implement symbol lookup 2014-10-29T10:42:34Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:43:39Z Grue`: common lisp symbols have other data attached besides their name, such as symbol-function, property list etc. 2014-10-29T10:43:58Z protist: Grue`: my plan is: intern by checking the symbol table for the string and returning the symbol associated if found...otherwise create a new association from the string to the symbol in the hash....a symbol will be a struct with a string and unique integer....symbol comparison will be comparison of the underlying integer 2014-10-29T10:45:21Z gabot joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:46:08Z protist: Grue`: I'm not planning to have property lists...but I could add them later in my language 2014-10-29T10:46:09Z pjb: Grue`: the key word is "associated". 2014-10-29T10:46:16Z protist: Grue`: do you see a problem with my plan? 2014-10-29T10:46:20Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T10:46:54Z pjb: Grue`: you can implement symbol-plist, symbol-package, symbol-value, symbol-function (and even symbol-name), as mapping from the symbol _identity_ to the corresponding place. 2014-10-29T10:47:21Z pjb: protist: no problem, the essence of symbol is having _identity_. You can represent this identity with an integer or an address or whatever you want. 2014-10-29T10:47:35Z protist: pjb: sweet :D 2014-10-29T10:48:03Z protist: pjb: that was my thought....must support: interning, coersion to string, and symbol comparison 2014-10-29T10:48:04Z pjb: Notably, when you implement lisp on other languages, you can have some funny ways of implementing lisp types. 2014-10-29T10:48:04Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:48:11Z Grue`: if you plan to assign integers sequentially, that's not thread-safe; and if your integers are hashes, they might potentially clash 2014-10-29T10:48:36Z pjb: That's why we use usually addresses. 2014-10-29T10:48:45Z pjb: But notice that in X11, symbols are fixnums. 2014-10-29T10:48:53Z protist: hmmm 2014-10-29T10:49:07Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-10-29T10:49:16Z protist: but even if you use addresses, both processes must have access to the same symbol table 2014-10-29T10:49:17Z pjb: (externally, nothing says that the X11 server doesn't implement them as an address, and gives the address as a fixnum). 2014-10-29T10:49:19Z protist: is that an issue? 2014-10-29T10:49:56Z pjb: protist: X11 provides a protocol to give clients access to server symbols. 2014-10-29T10:50:02Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:50:26Z pjb: protist: often when you implement conses on lower languages, you use vectors of integers, one vector for the car, and one for the cdr. 2014-10-29T10:51:00Z varoun quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T10:51:02Z varoun_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:51:21Z protist: pjb: what do you mean vectors of integers?...just pointers, you mean? 2014-10-29T10:51:33Z pjb: in BASIC, there are no pointers. 2014-10-29T10:51:44Z varoun_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T10:51:57Z pjb: or in bash. 2014-10-29T10:51:58Z protist: pjb: and vector of integer is similar to a void* I take it? 2014-10-29T10:52:10Z varoun joined #lisp 2014-10-29T10:52:38Z pjb: well, assumedly, those integers represent object "addresses" and you have a way to know the type of those objects, to know in what vector to find them. 2014-10-29T10:52:51Z protist: pjb: my language has no cons....just flat vectors of certain types (and that type can be vector) 2014-10-29T10:53:01Z pjb: The point is that you can implement things in a lot of different ways. Anything goes. 2014-10-29T10:53:02Z protist: pjb: by vector I mean like array 2014-10-29T10:53:27Z pjb: vector = 1D array. Have your arrays more than 1 dimension? 2014-10-29T10:53:33Z protist: pjb: yeah :)...just wanted to air my thoughts about symbols here so I don't end up in a corner 2014-10-29T10:53:52Z protist: pjb: yes arrays of more than one dimension are acheivable...they nest 2014-10-29T10:53:59Z pjb: As long as you implement the functional abstraction, you can do whatever you want. 2014-10-29T10:54:14Z pjb: vectors of vectors are not arrays. They're vectors. 2014-10-29T10:54:23Z protist: pjb: my language is running on the right....sorry not a great example...pic was to show my desktop setup: http://i.imgur.com/Af4e9zC.jpg 2014-10-29T10:54:32Z pjb: If you don't have arrays, you can implement them with vectors of vectors in a library. 2014-10-29T10:55:11Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T10:55:25Z protist: pjb: the language is APL like...but with a more Lispy feel like K...so no concept of dimension 2014-10-29T10:55:46Z protist: pjb: but things nest...just like conses can 2014-10-29T10:55:57Z pjb: ok 2014-10-29T10:55:58Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T10:56:07Z protist: pjb: under the covers nasty things happen with flat memory things getting shuffled 2014-10-29T10:56:32Z protist: pjb: hopefully my pool allocator will save me having to actually have dynamic growth 2014-10-29T10:56:39Z protist: pjb: will benchmark later 2014-10-29T10:57:08Z varoun quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 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timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-29T13:41:28Z hiyosi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T13:41:42Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T13:45:03Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T13:45:30Z jusss: does macro make two function one time 2014-10-29T13:46:57Z dlowe: it's possible for a macro to define two functions with one macro call 2014-10-29T13:47:14Z jusss: how ? 2014-10-29T13:47:44Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T13:48:30Z protist: jusss: just make it expand to what you want, defun works globally...you could prob shove them in a progn 2014-10-29T13:48:36Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T13:49:04Z protist: dlowe: and saying you 'call' a macro sounds off to me 2014-10-29T13:49:10Z protist: dlowe: oops not you 2014-10-29T13:49:13Z protist: jusss: you lol :p 2014-10-29T13:49:20Z dlowe: I said "call" :p 2014-10-29T13:49:32Z hitecnologys: Macros are not called, they are expanded. 2014-10-29T13:49:38Z dlowe: No one expects the terminology inquisition 2014-10-29T13:50:47Z hitecnologys: I meant no offence. 2014-10-29T13:51:45Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T13:52:22Z protist: dlowe: hehe :D 2014-10-29T13:52:54Z protist: and there is not gaurantee about how many times the macro will expand...just interesting 2014-10-29T13:52:56Z dlowe: I'm not offended, but I don't expect to be patronizingly corrected when I'm trying to communicate with someone who is still learning English 2014-10-29T13:53:03Z jusss: protist: like this ? (defmacro bla (foo bar) `(defun x1 ...) `(defun x2)) 2014-10-29T13:53:19Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-10-29T13:53:20Z dlowe: jusss: A PROGN at the top level will treat its subforms as top-level forms, too, so you can use defun just fine 2014-10-29T13:53:29Z dlowe: protist: No, a macro only expands into one form 2014-10-29T13:53:31Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-10-29T13:53:36Z hitecnologys: jusss: no, this will not work as only the last form is considered to be expansion. 2014-10-29T13:53:44Z protist: jusss: (defmacro bla (foo bar) `(progn (defuna()) (defun b()))) 2014-10-29T13:53:59Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T13:54:11Z protist: jusss: (defmacro bla (foo bar) `(progn (defun a()) (defun b()))) 2014-10-29T13:54:15Z protist: jusss: forgot a space :p 2014-10-29T13:54:35Z protist: dlowe: I didn't expect to have to patronizingly correct you, either 2014-10-29T13:54:43Z protist: dlowe: ;) 2014-10-29T13:54:43Z dlowe: protist: my point is that you didn'thave to 2014-10-29T13:54:46Z jusss: protist: (defmacro bla (foo bar) `(progn (defun a ()) (a))) is possible ? 2014-10-29T13:55:01Z ggole: Every now and then I've wanted for macro expanders that return multiple values to be expanded into multiple forms. 2014-10-29T13:55:05Z ggole: But no. 2014-10-29T13:55:17Z protist: ggole: make one, with a macro 2014-10-29T13:55:29Z Grue`: jusss: yes, progn can take any number of subforms, including 1 or 0 2014-10-29T13:55:32Z ggole: A code walker? Kinda tempting. 2014-10-29T13:55:40Z protist: ggole: erm...not the expander...but something that makes analogous behavior 2014-10-29T13:55:48Z protist: ggole: it isn't all that hard 2014-10-29T13:55:48Z jusss: Grue`: I will try 2014-10-29T13:57:19Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T13:57:40Z protist: ggole: you don't even have to really walk the code to any depth...just something like (defmacro macroN (&body body) `(progn ,@body)) 2014-10-29T13:57:49Z protist: ggole: something similar, that may even function 2014-10-29T13:58:04Z protist: ggole: oops 2014-10-29T13:58:36Z Grue`: that doesn't even do anything 2014-10-29T13:59:24Z protist: (defmacro macroN (name args &body body) `(defmacro ,name ,args (progn ,@body))) 2014-10-29T13:59:30Z protist: something more like that 2014-10-29T14:00:02Z ggole: That doesn't really do what I said. 2014-10-29T14:00:05Z eudoxia: so what's this code walker thing that's got everyone so upset lately 2014-10-29T14:00:12Z protist: more like...but still wrong 2014-10-29T14:00:20Z Grue`: that looks suspiciously like a macro that expands into itself 2014-10-29T14:00:20Z protist: ggole: maybe I don't understand what you want 2014-10-29T14:00:21Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:00:38Z protist: Grue`: your suspicions are correct 2014-10-29T14:01:09Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:01:11Z ggole: You need to be able to do something like (foo a (m args) b) => (foo a x y z b), or even (foo a b): no macro definition of m is sufficient 2014-10-29T14:01:16Z protist: hmmm 2014-10-29T14:01:34Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:01:42Z ggole: Usually apply and some list trickery can get it done, so the need isn't really all that pressing. 2014-10-29T14:02:18Z Grue`: i'm kinda interested about how some code-walking thing could get people upset 2014-10-29T14:02:32Z jusss: use macro to make macro is cool 2014-10-29T14:02:48Z shortCircuit__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T14:02:53Z protist: so what is our goal 2014-10-29T14:03:02Z protist: give me a full example of input and output 2014-10-29T14:03:25Z jusss: recursion in macro 2014-10-29T14:03:34Z ggole: The above isn't clear? 2014-10-29T14:03:34Z protist: jusss: I've done that 2014-10-29T14:03:57Z jusss: protist: I saw 2014-10-29T14:03:59Z protist: jusss: I had an interpretter that used macros to turn an AST into the executable lisp it represented :p 2014-10-29T14:04:10Z protist: jusss: lol yeah 2014-10-29T14:04:23Z protist: but I guess the macro filled AST was just lisp all along 2014-10-29T14:04:38Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:04:57Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:05:05Z jusss: protist: give me a more example ,like recursion in macro 2014-10-29T14:05:18Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T14:05:24Z jusss: just like function ? 2014-10-29T14:05:41Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T14:05:42Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:05:54Z protist: jusss: I can think of a joke example I made once...let me find it 2014-10-29T14:05:54Z hitecnologys: protist: if I correctly understood, he wants to be able to (function-call x (macro y z) a b c) => (function-call x (foo y) (bar z) a b c) without need for backquoting and eval. 2014-10-29T14:06:32Z protist: jusss: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/33196/loop-without-looping/34454#34454 2014-10-29T14:07:16Z ggole: It's pretty simple. Currently macros expand to a single form: I'd like them to be able to expand into any number of forms. 2014-10-29T14:07:21Z hitecnologys: protist: I'd myself would expect something similar if macro returns multiple values. 2014-10-29T14:07:22Z ggole: Like @ does for backquote 2014-10-29T14:08:00Z hitecnologys: ggole: luckily, you can modify reader to do that. It's definitely possible. 2014-10-29T14:08:15Z protist: hitecnologys: ah that is nasty...the macro would have to change the structure ABOVE IT 2014-10-29T14:08:23Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:08:28Z hitecnologys: ggole: but I can't possible imagine how one would make macros do such a thing without code walking. 2014-10-29T14:08:30Z protist: hitecnologys: don't think that is easilly doable, or even advisable 2014-10-29T14:08:37Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:08:38Z ggole: Right, that's why I said a code walker would be necessary. 2014-10-29T14:08:42Z hitecnologys: protist: yes, that is indeed nasty. 2014-10-29T14:08:44Z ggole: Unless I'm missing some trick. 2014-10-29T14:08:58Z hitecnologys: *macroexpand-hook* 2014-10-29T14:09:26Z protist: ggole: I can't imagine where that would be needed, but I can imagine it being expected 2014-10-29T14:09:27Z hitecnologys: IIRC correctly, you can try to handle macro expansion differently. 2014-10-29T14:09:28Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:09:41Z ggole: Hmm, never used it. 2014-10-29T14:09:48Z ggole spelunks clhs 2014-10-29T14:10:14Z BitPuffin left #lisp 2014-10-29T14:10:33Z protist: hitecnologys: probably better to do (macro y z function-call a b c) and make that expand 2014-10-29T14:10:34Z hitecnologys: Yes, it seems like you can do it without code walking just by hooking into macro expansion. 2014-10-29T14:10:45Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:10:52Z ggole: "For this reason, it is frequently best to confine its uses to debugging situations." hmm 2014-10-29T14:12:06Z hitecnologys: protist: that's not what I (and ggole) want. I want macro to be able to expand into multiple forms, not do some kind of shadowy magic. 2014-10-29T14:13:02Z jusss: protist: what's different in &rest and &body 2014-10-29T14:13:14Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:13:25Z protist: jusss: how some editors highlight them and indent based on them 2014-10-29T14:13:37Z protist: jusss: I think that is about it 2014-10-29T14:13:38Z hitecnologys: jusss: &body can not be used with DEFUN. Besides that and the fact that some editors handle them differently, nothing. 2014-10-29T14:14:18Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:14:20Z protist: hitecnologys: are you sure it can't be used in defun?...just wondering...never tried it 2014-10-29T14:14:48Z hitecnologys: protist: yes. I'm sure. 2014-10-29T14:14:53Z jusss: protist: hitecnologys so why not people use &rest ? 2014-10-29T14:14:56Z protist: hitecnologys: yeah you're right 2014-10-29T14:14:59Z protist: hitecnologys: :) 2014-10-29T14:15:04Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:15:18Z protist: jusss: &body is more descriptive 2014-10-29T14:15:21Z hitecnologys: jusss: because they serve different purposes. 2014-10-29T14:15:51Z hitecnologys: jusss: it's something close to "why use WHEN when there's IF?". 2014-10-29T14:16:25Z dlowe: I think SLIME also has some special handling for &body forms in indentation 2014-10-29T14:17:06Z jusss: I like if 2014-10-29T14:17:33Z hitecnologys: Has anybody seen naryl around recently? 2014-10-29T14:17:42Z jusss: if blabla then blabla or not blabla 2014-10-29T14:18:33Z hitecnologys: jusss: that's not what I meant. It's all about what code is for and what it means, not what it does. 2014-10-29T14:22:48Z varoun joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:22:48Z pjb: ggole: it is better if macros can't expand to several forms. If they could, you could easily introduced code injection exploits. 2014-10-29T14:22:55Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:23:05Z Xach joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:23:10Z pjb: ggole: this is the fact that macros expand to a single for that prevent code injection exploits in lisp. 2014-10-29T14:24:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:24:53Z hitecnologys: pjb: I think it's easier to do injection with PROGN rather than with multiple values as PROGN returns only value of the last form evaluated which can be used in function calls without disrupting them. 2014-10-29T14:25:14Z luis: What's a code injection exploit? 2014-10-29T14:25:20Z pjb: luis: use google. 2014-10-29T14:25:25Z hitecnologys: pjb: having ability to do (VALUES foo bar) in macros to expand to multiple forms would be great, in my opinion. 2014-10-29T14:25:51Z pjb: No, it would break lisp. 2014-10-29T14:26:29Z hitecnologys: Certainly, it would create lots of problems. 2014-10-29T14:26:35Z luis: "Code injection is the exploitation of a computer bug that is caused by processing invalid data." -- I don't see how this applies to macros. Sure, code is data, but that's not what they mean in this context. 2014-10-29T14:26:36Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:26:45Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:27:04Z varoun quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:27:05Z pjb: (unwind-protect (m) (c)) ==> you are sure that (c) is called. If (m) can expand to several forms, it can expand to (print 'hi) (return) and (c) won't be called. 2014-10-29T14:27:11Z hitecnologys: luis: one could modify macro sightly and make it do something nasty. 2014-10-29T14:27:25Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:27:26Z luis: Otherwise, any API that takes, say, a function callback would be prone to "code injection". 2014-10-29T14:27:31Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:27:31Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T14:27:35Z francogrex: Hi can anyone please give me ideas to this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144196 I would like to output text with format that contains returns in addition to newlines... 2014-10-29T14:27:44Z Xach: Giving untrusted people control over the source code you run has many dangers. 2014-10-29T14:27:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:28:22Z francogrex: but the test is too large to have so many #\return characters embedded. can there be a more automated solution? 2014-10-29T14:28:34Z pjb: francogrex: 1- use an external-format that let you specify CR-LF for newlines. (some implementations can't do that, therefore:) 2- realize that your data is binary, and output a binary data stream! 2014-10-29T14:29:12Z francogrex: external-format 2014-10-29T14:29:33Z pjb: cf open, with-open-file 2014-10-29T14:29:34Z varoun joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:29:36Z francogrex: I will try with that, but the thing with tyhe binary output i want to embed 2014-10-29T14:29:47Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T14:30:01Z sismondi joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:30:06Z francogrex: yes I know. I want to embed some info into the format string ~a ~s etc 2014-10-29T14:30:18Z ggole: pjb: right, that does seem like a problem 2014-10-29T14:30:46Z a20141028 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-29T14:31:34Z sismondi: I don't quite get the "case" form in cl. Is it possible to construct case where the switching variable is a string? Or must I use cond? 2014-10-29T14:31:46Z pjb: you would have to wrap all macro calls in a progn (and what is macro, what is a function?) and never forget (which, C and C++ programmers have taught us, is very easy to never forget, right. 2014-10-29T14:31:49Z ggole: I had things like &rest in mind where it "should" be safe, but of course you don't know that an operation treats &rest args uniformly. 2014-10-29T14:31:56Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:32:08Z pjb: sismondi: it is possible to use strings as case constants, but it won't do what you want. 2014-10-29T14:32:14Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:32:26Z Xach: sismondi: you have to use COND or some add-on like the STRING-CASE library. 2014-10-29T14:32:36Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:32:40Z hitecnologys: sismondi: no, CASE uses EQL for comparison which doesn't work on strings. You must either use COND or write macro that works like CASE but accepts :test. Or you can juse use Alexandria's SWITCH. 2014-10-29T14:32:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:32:52Z pjb: sismondi: you could write (let ((s #1="ex")) (case (if (zerop (random 2)) s "ex") (#1# 'yes) (t 'no))) 2014-10-29T14:33:29Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:33:34Z sismondi: ok thanks everyone I'll check out switch and string-case. 2014-10-29T14:33:36Z pjb: But as you can see, it's rather difficult to get a reference of the literal string compiled in. 2014-10-29T14:33:44Z Petit_Dejeuner_: So, a lisp machine would just be an image running on hardware? The same way I can load code into a repl emacs I could do the same with a lisp machine? 2014-10-29T14:33:58Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: yes. 2014-10-29T14:34:06Z Levenshtein joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:34:16Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Then emacs is just a virtual lisp machine that runs emacs lisp? 2014-10-29T14:34:21Z pjb: exactly. 2014-10-29T14:35:10Z wasamasa: in other words, emacs is a shitty lisp machine 2014-10-29T14:35:14Z Petit_Dejeuner_: ha 2014-10-29T14:35:33Z wasamasa looked at image.c today 2014-10-29T14:36:29Z Petit_Dejeuner_: And the benefit of using an image system for a programming language is so that code can be changed dynamically? 2014-10-29T14:36:46Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T14:37:40Z pjb: more or less. 2014-10-29T14:37:42Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:37:51Z pjb: There is not a lot of difference with the usual unix schema. 2014-10-29T14:38:12Z pjb: Notably, because the fact that we have images, is not really exploited by development tools. 2014-10-29T14:38:19Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:38:40Z varoun quit 2014-10-29T14:38:55Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Sometimes I hear people say reloading text files during runtime isn't dynamic. Are they talking about loading arbitrary snippets of code? 2014-10-29T14:39:04Z pjb: We use a different unix process to run emacs. We use a different unix process to compile the libraries sources to fasl (they are cached on a unix filesystem by a previous run of quickload). We keep the sources on a unix file system, and load them again and again. 2014-10-29T14:39:26Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: if you use the C-x C-l or C-x C-k command in slime, you reload the whole file. 2014-10-29T14:39:47Z fortitude: Xach: in ql:write-asdf-manifest-file (https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/quicklisp/client.lisp#L108) is there a reason you use enough-namestring instead of just using an absolute path? 2014-10-29T14:39:49Z pjb: For some reasons, you may have to and want to recompile and reload the whole file each time you modify a function. 2014-10-29T14:40:09Z pjb: But you could also redefine the function at the REPL. 2014-10-29T14:40:26Z Xach: fortitude: yes. it's so the pathname that contains the manifest can be moved around without invalidating its contents. 2014-10-29T14:40:42Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-29T14:41:32Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: you would need to use an editor embedded in your lisp image, and to keep the source text in strings in a database stored in the lisp image, and have a version of load and compile-file able to use those source text strings. 2014-10-29T14:42:17Z pjb: Or you could have a REPL that remembers the source forms (or text) of all the definitions. have a look at: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 2014-10-29T14:42:39Z pjb: and http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp 2014-10-29T14:43:03Z fortitude: Xach: ah, I see. I ran into some trouble with that and buildapp (sbcl's enough-namestring has a bug on windows), where you'd probably want absolute pathnames more 2014-10-29T14:43:05Z Petit_Dejeuner_: pjb, Having access to the source code for stdlib functions at any time would be nice. 2014-10-29T14:43:11Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:43:29Z Xach: fortitude: it could be my bug. i have not tested enough on windows. 2014-10-29T14:43:36Z pjb: slime gives you that, but again, using the unix file system. The sources of sbcl are not loaded in the sbcl image. 2014-10-29T14:43:42Z Xach: sbcl causes problems with its line-ending convention on windows for other implementations. 2014-10-29T14:43:43Z pjb: (and similarly for other implementations). 2014-10-29T14:43:50Z fortitude: Xach: nope, it's definitely sbcl: enough-namestring doesn't include the device 2014-10-29T14:43:53Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:44:09Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: Notice that the source of some implementation is not even in Common Lisp! 2014-10-29T14:44:23Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Oh, that's lame. 2014-10-29T14:44:39Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Do you mean another small lisp or C? 2014-10-29T14:45:00Z pjb: clisp is written in C. ABCL is written in Java. Even SBCL and CCL have some (reduced) parts written in C. 2014-10-29T14:45:52Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Well, the primitives have to implemented in another languge or at least hardware, right? Do you mean some things that aren't primitives are written in something else? 2014-10-29T14:45:55Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:46:07Z wasamasa: memory management sounds hard to do in lisp 2014-10-29T14:46:07Z malice joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:46:20Z jusss: first function (eval )writen by assembly 2014-10-29T14:46:26Z wasamasa: you need to access something malloc-like at some point 2014-10-29T14:48:31Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T14:48:59Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T14:49:57Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:50:31Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:54:40Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:55:46Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T14:56:00Z TDog quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T14:56:11Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-10-29T14:59:04Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-10-29T14:59:45Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:03:12Z pjb: wasamasa: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.heap.heap 2014-10-29T15:03:27Z jussss joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:03:41Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner_: everything can be implemented in lisp. 2014-10-29T15:05:20Z dlowe: Petit_Dejeuner_: A progam's binary is just data that's executed. A compiler is a program that takes source code and can generate that executable data, which is something lisp can do. 2014-10-29T15:05:29Z dlowe: (or pretty much anything else) 2014-10-29T15:05:45Z dim: pjb: writing's an implementation GC in lisp strikes me as quite hard, right? 2014-10-29T15:05:52Z dlowe: memory management is hard regardless. 2014-10-29T15:06:41Z protist: dim: well if you wrote it in a Lisp that doesn't have GC then it gets confusing 2014-10-29T15:06:54Z protist: dim: but if you are building it from the ground up it should make sense 2014-10-29T15:07:29Z dlowe: If you have a linux system, it makes sense to build the GC in C, because you have easy access to various system parameters that are hard to get otherwise 2014-10-29T15:07:39Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:07:41Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:10:18Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T15:17:37Z a20141029 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:20:54Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:21:12Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:21:53Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:23:29Z pjb: dim: no it's rather trivial. 2014-10-29T15:24:04Z j2p2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:25:28Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:26:29Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:26:34Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:30:55Z wglb` quit (Quit: reset) 2014-10-29T15:31:19Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:32:19Z wglb joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:32:22Z ofosos joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:33:56Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:35:30Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-29T15:38:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:40:56Z mwsb is now known as chu 2014-10-29T15:42:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T15:43:56Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:45:06Z jussss: what's GC 2014-10-29T15:46:05Z l3thal: garbage collection? 2014-10-29T15:49:02Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:49:23Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-29T15:50:14Z ELLIOTTCABLE quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:51:04Z ELLIOTTCABLE joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:51:23Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:53:59Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:55:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:56:03Z ELLIOTTCABLE quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-29T15:56:28Z ELLIOTTCABLE joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:57:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2014-10-29T15:59:01Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:02:26Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:02:48Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:04:40Z Levenshtein_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:08:12Z Levenshtein quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:09:22Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:09:22Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:10:27Z jussss quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-10-29T16:10:50Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T16:12:23Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:12:53Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:13:38Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:16:18Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:16:18Z jasom: usually GC isn't written in the host language. T (a scheme) did this though, through careful use of only non-allocating primitives 2014-10-29T16:17:24Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T16:17:26Z jasom: If your lisp stack-allocated variables with dynamic extent, and you had a separate stack reserved for the GC you could probably do it in common lisp as well. It would end up being more like s-expression fronted C than common lisp though. 2014-10-29T16:17:54Z dim: I've had C teachers who would allocate 2MB of memory (a big array, very big at the time they did that) and then manage the memory in there themselves 2014-10-29T16:18:11Z dim: it now sounds like manual GC spreaded everywhere in the code 2014-10-29T16:18:14Z jasom: dim: malloc is only useful for the average case 2014-10-29T16:18:42Z dim: when I have to code in C I use palloc(), the PostgreSQL memory allocation facilities 2014-10-29T16:18:50Z fe[nl]ix: Allegro's GC is written in CL 2014-10-29T16:18:51Z jasom: IIRC mozilla significantly reduced their footprint by changing malloc implementations (a lot of their memory leaks were apparently due to fragmentation) 2014-10-29T16:19:15Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: that's good to know. 2014-10-29T16:19:15Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:19:54Z Xach: dim: reminds me of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3238871095242925%40naggum.no.html a little. 2014-10-29T16:20:43Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-29T16:21:07Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:23:00Z dim prepares tea and biscuits (rather than pop corn) then loads the page 2014-10-29T16:23:20Z jasom: less popcorn needed than the average naggum post 2014-10-29T16:25:04Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T16:25:15Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T16:27:03Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:27:03Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:27:12Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:28:34Z dim: yeah, good one, no controversy (or it's escaping me) 2014-10-29T16:29:16Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:32:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-29T16:33:26Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:34:14Z ejbs joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:34:18Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:34:38Z thawes_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-29T16:34:58Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T16:36:37Z gz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T16:37:06Z splittist quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T16:37:08Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:37:18Z superjudge quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T16:37:36Z cojy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:37:45Z victor_lowther__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:38:11Z bb010g quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:38:59Z endou_____ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:39:03Z gluegadget quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:39:40Z nicdev` is now known as nicdev 2014-10-29T16:40:01Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:40:42Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:41:01Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:41:20Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:41:34Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:43:14Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T16:43:27Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:45:51Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-29T16:47:36Z theotherstupidgu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:47:57Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:48:12Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:48:54Z ellis-a joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:50:20Z beach joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:50:33Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-10-29T16:51:01Z oleo: evening beach! 2014-10-29T16:51:24Z ellis-a quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-10-29T16:52:24Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T16:52:31Z ellis-a joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:55:06Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:55:54Z beach: Grue`: Even though there are functions such as SYMBOL-PLIST and SYMBOL-FUNCTION, it doesn't follow that the object representing a symbol has the corresponding slots. 2014-10-29T16:57:00Z zickzackv quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-29T16:57:23Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-10-29T16:58:05Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-10-29T16:58:12Z beach: I added a few more pages to: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html (protection flags in the low-level interface). I was inspired by the discussion with pjb some 12 hours ago. 2014-10-29T16:58:49Z vydd quit 2014-10-29T16:59:09Z xificurC quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2014-10-29T16:59:44Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-29T17:00:00Z beach: If there is anyone here who feels like contributing a page to that site, I suggest that he or she submit a proposal for review here. 2014-10-29T17:00:32Z jasom: good morning beach 2014-10-29T17:00:40Z Ryan_Burnside joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:01:31Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T17:03:15Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:06:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:07:38Z jasom: beach: pipe2? 2014-10-29T17:07:52Z beach: What about it? 2014-10-29T17:08:18Z beach: You want to submit? Sure, go right ahead! 2014-10-29T17:08:30Z jasom: so just write up a page in the format there? 2014-10-29T17:08:35Z beach: Yep. 2014-10-29T17:08:59Z beach: There is some design to do, unless the interface is trivially translated to Common Lisp. 2014-10-29T17:09:04Z jasom: also for the high-level interface, woud having a fd stream make sense? 2014-10-29T17:09:27Z beach: Good question. 2014-10-29T17:09:39Z jasom: most implementations already have one, and you could use a graystream implementation for the remaining 2014-10-29T17:10:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T17:10:12Z beach: I think it is best to use a file descriptor, i.e. a fixnum, like the others do already. 2014-10-29T17:10:32Z jasom: I mean a function to create a stream out of a file descriptor 2014-10-29T17:10:35Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:10:46Z beach: Yeah, sure. 2014-10-29T17:10:53Z jasom: oh and pipe2 is BSD but not posix it appears 2014-10-29T17:11:00Z beach: Doesn't matter. 2014-10-29T17:11:12Z beach: I intend to include Linux non-POSIX anyway. 2014-10-29T17:11:21Z jasom: oh linux not BSD; netbsd adopted it from linux 2014-10-29T17:11:52Z beach: OK. Still doesn't matter. :) 2014-10-29T17:12:47Z ellis-a quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-10-29T17:14:22Z drewc: pipe2 is like threads and sockets... Not ANSI CL at all, but widely used and a /de facto/ standard :) 2014-10-29T17:15:05Z drewc now says 'goodmorning' :) 2014-10-29T17:15:14Z slyrus: morning drewc 2014-10-29T17:15:22Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:16:23Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-29T17:17:39Z oGMo: hrm does slime have something like .. slime-apply-and-replace .. where it sends the sexp at the point to the CL function, and replaces it in hte buffer with the result of said function 2014-10-29T17:18:15Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:18:55Z beach: jasom: If you do contribute, the thing is on my GitHub site, so you can send a pull request. 2014-10-29T17:19:52Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Closix 2014-10-29T17:22:06Z beach: oGMo: I don't know the answer to your question, but I frequently use read-time evaluation in that case. 2014-10-29T17:22:27Z oGMo: beach: i don't see anything so i'm just writing the 5 lines it takes to make it happen heh 2014-10-29T17:23:59Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:24:10Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:25:27Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T17:25:36Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:25:37Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:27:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:28:31Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:29:26Z superjudge joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:30:56Z ofosos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:31:29Z Ryan_Burnside quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-29T17:32:25Z cojy joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:32:54Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-10-29T17:33:19Z victor_lowther__ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:33:47Z miql joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:33:56Z splittist joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:35:03Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T17:36:40Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:37:49Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:38:16Z endou_____ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:38:53Z TristamWrk quit (Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...) 2014-10-29T17:39:24Z grungier quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-10-29T17:40:07Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:40:37Z theotherstupidgu joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:40:45Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:40:45Z TristamWrk quit (Changing host) 2014-10-29T17:40:45Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:42:04Z gluegadget joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:42:04Z bb010g joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:42:38Z grungier joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:42:58Z BitPuffin left #lisp 2014-10-29T17:44:00Z nha joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:44:50Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T17:44:57Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:45:07Z nyef: Good afternoon all. 2014-10-29T17:46:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:46:53Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:47:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:47:43Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:50:18Z gz_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:50:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:50:53Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:50:59Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-10-29T17:53:44Z drewc: good morning nyef 2014-10-29T17:54:47Z nyef: ... I suppose it still is morning on that side of the continent and in universal greeting time. (-: 2014-10-29T17:55:57Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:56:27Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-29T17:56:37Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:58:49Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T17:59:08Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2014-10-29T17:59:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T17:59:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T18:00:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:00:58Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:01:52Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:01:54Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:03:43Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:03:46Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:06:55Z drewc: nyef: and, for that matter, I live just /off/ this side of the continent ... and really, the fault line of the tectonic plates ... so just off the N. America plate as well! 2014-10-29T18:07:26Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:08:23Z nyef: drewc: Nice. Does that mean that you're less likely than western California to sink under the ocean? 2014-10-29T18:08:43Z jasom: nyef: it depends on how much you trust ferro-cement to not spring a leak 2014-10-29T18:08:57Z drewc: nyef: yup ... the Cascade Mountains helped there 2014-10-29T18:09:10Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:09:42Z Bike: juan de fuca plate is too busy sinking under the continent to sink under the ocean 2014-10-29T18:10:15Z stassats: did i get steered to the wrong channel again? 2014-10-29T18:10:33Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:10:44Z gz_ is now known as gz 2014-10-29T18:10:47Z drewc: jasom: i will pay you $50k to find a leak in a ferro cement boat that is pre-WW2, not maintained, and has to be pumped out evry 6 months because is will break apart the granite below! :) 2014-10-29T18:10:48Z vi1 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:10:52Z ck_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:11:12Z drewc knows that there is a $500k reward for that :P 2014-10-29T18:11:35Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:12:42Z jasom learned to sail in New England, where the only ferro-cement boats were made by crazy people who started a DIY without planning it out properly and never sailed. 2014-10-29T18:12:43Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:12:44Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2014-10-29T18:12:57Z drewc cannot spell, apologies! 2014-10-29T18:13:32Z loz joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:13:38Z pjb: nyef: drewc lives on a boat! He will never sink under the ocean! :-) 2014-10-29T18:14:04Z drewc: jasom: http://www.concreteships.org/ships/powellriver/ <--- still there ... it was also made of GRP boats, steel boats, aluminium and wood boats ... guess that happened to them? 2014-10-29T18:14:29Z drewc: s/that/what ... man, coffee time. 2014-10-29T18:15:12Z vi1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T18:15:39Z jasom: pjb: I know a lot more people who sank into the ocean sailing than living on land... 2014-10-29T18:17:07Z drewc: 1.5' thataway, and I will sink after a while. 2014-10-29T18:17:51Z drewc: Hypothermia will take a while to kick in, but when it does, I will sink, and quite happily. 2014-10-29T18:18:37Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:18:44Z drewc is about 1.4' away from the port hull. 2014-10-29T18:20:16Z Xach left #lisp 2014-10-29T18:23:06Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:26:54Z pjb: jasom: but I'd take an earthquake in the middle of the ocean any time over on the ground. 2014-10-29T18:27:11Z pjb: That said, drewc is too close to the coast to be safe in case of tsunami. 2014-10-29T18:29:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:29:19Z drewc: pjb: strangely enough, I experienced one in late 2012! As luck would have it, I was up on the boat yard, so really only saw it. But, that 8" breaking wave was, well ... 8" taller! 2014-10-29T18:30:14Z drewc: pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Haida_Gwaii_earthquake <--- if I have of been closer, it would have been larger 2014-10-29T18:31:18Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:31:20Z pjb: That's why I never understood people who are not promoting 100% space colonization. 2014-10-29T18:31:47Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:31:50Z drewc: s/have/had .... ok, no coding today.... no shell either. 2014-10-29T18:32:12Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T18:34:21Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-29T18:34:52Z hitecnologys: I know that the topic is interesting but if you intend to go on, I suggest you moving it to #lispcafe as it's a little bit off-topic here. Not that I'm the boss here but it makes it harder to look things up in the logs sometimes. 2014-10-29T18:35:22Z pjb: We're done, but thanks for the reminder. 2014-10-29T18:35:28Z drewc: pjb: Well, I always think that the 3/4 of the earth that most humans do not live on should be colonized first .... then I realize that we have more chance on Mars... Poseidon is a little more, harmful?!... than Ares. 2014-10-29T18:35:58Z drewc will shut up now as well, sorry hitecnologys. 2014-10-29T18:36:21Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-10-29T18:37:14Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:37:15Z hitecnologys: drewc: fine with me as long as it's happening not more often than once in a while. Nothing to be too much sorry about. 2014-10-29T18:38:08Z phao joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:40:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:40:47Z drewc: hitecnologys: Well, given that I do not see how off-topic conversations make it hard to look things up using http://ircbrowse.net/ or similar, it is best that I shut up now and do some woodworking. :P 2014-10-29T18:42:42Z hitecnologys: drewc: yes, that sounds sane. 2014-10-29T18:44:19Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:44:23Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:46:07Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-29T18:46:19Z cy joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:47:22Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-10-29T18:47:23Z cy quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-29T18:47:46Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:49:56Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:52:58Z cy joined #lisp 2014-10-29T18:53:53Z cy quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-29T18:54:01Z wglb: cl-sailing coming soon, eh? 2014-10-29T18:54:51Z nyef: Doubtful. 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2014-10-29T21:01:13Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-10-29T21:01:45Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-29T21:02:56Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:04:32Z francogrex: remove-if ? 2014-10-29T21:05:31Z loz: francogrex: it has key argument to apply before filter test, but i want to apply function after test to return result 2014-10-29T21:06:52Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:07:17Z jackdaniel: loz: http://www.cliki.net/COMPOSE 2014-10-29T21:07:22Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:07:30Z jackdaniel: (?) 2014-10-29T21:08:13Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:08:22Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:08:34Z pjb is now known as Guest36984 2014-10-29T21:09:08Z pyx quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-10-29T21:13:59Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:20:25Z loz: jackdaniel: i did my task with loop :P 2014-10-29T21:20:39Z loz: thx for link thou 2014-10-29T21:22:27Z jackdaniel: np :) 2014-10-29T21:23:53Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:24:42Z cracauer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:25:33Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-10-29T21:26:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:27:16Z corni joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:27:16Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-10-29T21:27:16Z corni joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:27:30Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:29:13Z _disco is now known as `d 2014-10-29T21:30:23Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T21:31:37Z phao joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:31:52Z thawes_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T21:32:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:34:36Z k-stz: man M-. M-, is super handy to work through code. Wouldn't know of it if i wouldn't lurk here 2014-10-29T21:34:36Z minion: k-stz, memo from pjb: you can also use the :conc-name option of defstruct. 2014-10-29T21:36:04Z nyef: k-stz: Also works on non-lisp code with the assistance of a "tags table". 2014-10-29T21:36:23Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:37:26Z cracauer joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:40:20Z ejbs quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:40:29Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T21:44:08Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-10-29T21:46:48Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:48:33Z kjeldahl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-29T21:49:12Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:52:49Z LoicLisp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T21:54:37Z corni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-29T21:56:25Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T21:58:56Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-29T21:59:27Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-10-29T22:01:54Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:04:57Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:05:50Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:06:24Z oleo is now known as Guest39691 2014-10-29T22:07:14Z Guest39691 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:11:23Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:12:08Z Qudit2 joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:12:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-29T22:13:11Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:16:54Z resttime: this is probably an odd question but... 2014-10-29T22:17:13Z resttime: is it possible to have an ssh client in the common lisp image? 2014-10-29T22:17:45Z nyef: In theory, sure. 2014-10-29T22:18:16Z resttime: hmmmm, because i was thinking of how embedding a REPL into an application would work 2014-10-29T22:18:36Z resttime: but I'd like to use the emacs editor via ssh 2014-10-29T22:18:54Z nyef: In practice, you'd probably use some version of libssl through FFI and just do the upper level protocols and windowing or termcap handling yourself. 2014-10-29T22:19:08Z nyef: Did you want the ssh client, or an ssh SERVER? 2014-10-29T22:20:23Z resttime: actually on second thought, what i'm thinking of is probably not a feasible idea 2014-10-29T22:21:57Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:22:45Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-29T22:23:11Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T22:25:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:26:22Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:27:32Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:32:27Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T22:35:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh cool, cl-ppcre is sort of like parsec. No need for cryptic regexps. 2014-10-29T22:35:12Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:36:52Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:39:10Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T22:39:37Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:44:04Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:44:12Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:44:23Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:47:02Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-29T22:47:38Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:48:31Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-10-29T22:49:36Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T22:55:41Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-29T22:58:27Z Grue`: resttime: start swank-server in your app, and use ssh tunnel to connect to it remotely 2014-10-29T22:59:51Z resttime: Grue`, what I was thinking was keeping everything in the same image 2014-10-29T22:59:54Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:00:22Z resttime: like i would have an application that i could write scripts for in the same application 2014-10-29T23:00:49Z resttime: at least that was what I was thinking about if i could do 2014-10-29T23:00:52Z Grue`: then why do you need ssh 2014-10-29T23:01:23Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T23:01:31Z resttime: because instead of writing a built-in editor, go through emacs 2014-10-29T23:01:48Z resttime: of course you could always just use emacs in the first place... 2014-10-29T23:01:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:03:34Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T23:03:52Z resttime: more thoughts on it has me conlude that it's pretty much some roundabout convuluted thing if itwere to be done 2014-10-29T23:05:39Z nyef: resttime: swank over an ssh tunnel + emacs tramp mode if necessary... And it's still a less than excellent idea to my mind. 2014-10-29T23:06:48Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:08:51Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-29T23:12:19Z loz quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-29T23:12:33Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:12:47Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:15:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:19:52Z baetheus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:21:32Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:22:24Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T23:25:44Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-10-29T23:28:59Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:29:37Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:31:40Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-29T23:32:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:34:17Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:36:32Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:38:40Z justinmburrous joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:39:42Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T23:39:51Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:40:23Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:43:14Z oslvbo joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:43:17Z `d is now known as __d 2014-10-29T23:44:26Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:45:46Z c74d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:45:49Z oslvbo_ joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:47:20Z __d is now known as discophoros 2014-10-29T23:47:58Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:48:34Z oslvbo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-29T23:55:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-29T23:56:01Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:57:14Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-10-29T23:58:57Z oslvbo_ quit 2014-10-29T23:59:02Z zRecursive joined #lisp