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2014-10-24T02:31:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-10-24T02:32:02Z ack006: Good morning :-)
2014-10-24T02:32:08Z Zhivago: Is it compulsory?
2014-10-24T02:32:38Z ack006: Just jolly :-)
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2014-10-24T02:37:25Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-10-24T02:58:44Z drmeister: Howdy
2014-10-24T02:58:57Z beach: drmeister: How are things going?
2014-10-24T02:59:30Z drmeister: Ok - I'm submitting one proposal tomorrow and starting another that is due next Wednesday.
2014-10-24T02:59:50Z beach: That should keep you busy.
2014-10-24T03:00:04Z drmeister: My new labs are coming together:  https://i.imgur.com/UloZ8oj.jpg
2014-10-24T03:00:30Z beach: Should be nice when it's done.
2014-10-24T03:00:53Z drmeister: Which hopefully will be Monday.
2014-10-24T03:01:25Z drmeister: It's a bit crazy here at the moment.
2014-10-24T03:01:53Z drmeister: I'm implementing a work around for a problem in the clang compiler.
2014-10-24T03:02:08Z beach: What problem?
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2014-10-24T03:02:38Z drmeister: It consumes a huge amount of memory when it optimizes automatically generated switch statements in C++ containing about 280 cases.
2014-10-24T03:03:37Z drmeister: So I'm implementing the dispatch as an array of functions that are called based on an integer index.
2014-10-24T03:04:08Z beach: How would it have been done otherwise?
2014-10-24T03:05:10Z drmeister: This is the code that interfaces with the MPS garbage collector.  When it's scanning the heap and fixing pointers it needs to dispatch based on the type of each object in memory.  I had a large switch statement but it was crashing when people compiled it on machines with small amounts of memory (<=8GB)
2014-10-24T03:05:51Z drmeister: It's a known problem of the Clang compiler.   It expects switch statements to be written by human beings with small numbers of cases (say a dozen or so).
2014-10-24T03:06:34Z beach: And what method would it use for the dispatch?  I am trying to figure out why that method would require so much memory.
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2014-10-24T03:09:35Z drmeister: It was an optimization pass after the switch statement is generated - it's a known problem of clang: http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2013-November/068165.html
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2014-10-24T03:15:05Z drmeister: Now that I put this to print I'm wondering though if I shouldn't have used a computed-goto.  They are a non-standard feature of GCC and they are probably implemented in clang.
2014-10-24T03:16:05Z beach: Might be worth trying.
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2014-10-24T03:18:27Z drmeister: How are things with you?
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2014-10-24T03:18:52Z beach: Fine.  But very busy with SICL and Cleavir.
2014-10-24T03:19:09Z drmeister: HIR->MIR?
2014-10-24T03:19:19Z beach: Not this minute.
2014-10-24T03:19:58Z drmeister: I hope to get started on HIR->LLVM-IR next week.
2014-10-24T03:20:05Z beach: But I think I broke the interpreter.  Not a catastrophe though.  Just an issue of package names.
2014-10-24T03:20:23Z drmeister: Do you have a subset of packages that Cleavir depends on?
2014-10-24T03:20:43Z drmeister: Or a file to load that would just load what Cleavir needs?
2014-10-24T03:20:50Z beach: Do you mean "package" as in Common Lisp package?
2014-10-24T03:20:56Z drmeister: Yes.
2014-10-24T03:21:25Z beach: Not sure what you mean.  When you run ASDF, all packages get created.
2014-10-24T03:22:00Z drmeister: Is there an ASDF system for just the Cleavir code?
2014-10-24T03:22:10Z beach: There are many small ones.
2014-10-24T03:22:22Z beach: Their dependencies should be in place.
2014-10-24T03:22:53Z drmeister: I see, you define a bunch of systems that depend on each other?
2014-10-24T03:22:57Z beach: Yes.
2014-10-24T03:23:17Z beach: So that implementers can choose what part they want.
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2014-10-24T03:23:52Z drmeister: I'm not that familiar with ASDF.  If I want the Cleavir system it will load just the systems that it depends on?
2014-10-24T03:24:13Z beach: That's the idea.
2014-10-24T03:25:21Z drmeister: I haven't used ASDF that much.  It takes 25 seconds to load into Clasp.  That's why I can't wait to integrate Cleavir.
2014-10-24T03:25:36Z beach: I see.
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2014-10-24T03:26:51Z drmeister: After 3-4 years of work, 25 seconds to load ASDF drives me crazy.
2014-10-24T03:27:10Z beach: I can sympathize with that.
2014-10-24T03:27:56Z drmeister: Yup.
2014-10-24T03:28:33Z drmeister: Oh well, I better get back to shaking my money maker.
2014-10-24T03:28:34Z Ryan_Burnside: Kind of feel like writing a project using CL's binding for Tk.
2014-10-24T03:28:40Z Ryan_Burnside: No idea for GUI thing to make though.
2014-10-24T03:28:51Z beach: Well, I am currently working on SICL.  Specifically, I am rewriting the code for the first-class global environment.  I will then use that code to check that I can use Cleavir to generate HIR from forms.
2014-10-24T03:29:16Z beach: drmeister: OK, good luck.
2014-10-24T03:29:33Z beach: Ryan_Burnside: Do you need ideas for GUI programs?
2014-10-24T03:29:42Z beach: Ryan_Burnside: How about an accounting system?
2014-10-24T03:29:43Z drmeister: Ah, that was what you said a couple of days ago (if I remember correctly) - that you had an elegant way to represent the global environment.  I look forward to seeing it.
2014-10-24T03:30:02Z beach: drmeister: I think it is a central idea.  It will simplify many things.
2014-10-24T03:31:12Z beach: Some Common Lisp documentation will let you think that there is a "value cell" in every symbol, but really, that's just one way of representing part of the global environment.
2014-10-24T03:32:05Z beach: So in SICL, SYMBOL-VALUE is a function that accesses the environment, not a symbol.
2014-10-24T03:32:08Z Ryan_Burnside: beach,  that's the problem all of my programs needs are mostly met by tools in Linux packages...
2014-10-24T03:32:30Z moore33: hi beach
2014-10-24T03:32:32Z beach: Ryan_Burnside: Oh, Linux has a good accounting system?
2014-10-24T03:32:38Z drmeister: I have a "value cell" in my symbols.  I've heard that threaded implementations store a unique index in every symbol and that can index into a thread-local array for symbols.
2014-10-24T03:32:43Z beach: Hello moore33.  Still in the US I take it?
2014-10-24T03:33:07Z moore33: yup, coming back 2/11.
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2014-10-24T03:34:44Z beach: drmeister: As I recall, that's the method I suggested to Dan Barlow for SBCL some 14 years ago. :)
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2014-10-24T03:35:31Z beach: That was before SBCL had threads.
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2014-10-24T03:35:43Z drmeister: beach: Cool - pkhuong or nyef or told me that was what SBCL uses.
2014-10-24T03:35:57Z drmeister: What goes around comes around.
2014-10-24T03:36:54Z beach: But SICL is not going to do it that way.
2014-10-24T03:37:01Z Ryan_Burnside: beach, well I'm not really into accounting. :<
2014-10-24T03:38:02Z drmeister: Are you implementing some sort of global environment?
2014-10-24T03:38:11Z beach: drmeister: Give me an educated guess.  At any point in time, how many special variables have thread-local bindings?
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2014-10-24T03:38:27Z drmeister: A dozen or so.
2014-10-24T03:38:37Z beach: At the very most I would think, yes.
2014-10-24T03:39:24Z beach: So if you just do a linked list of bindings, your search would be depth 6 on the average.
2014-10-24T03:39:26Z drmeister: I spend most of my time working on compilers - a dozen or so there.  Fewer in regular code.
2014-10-24T03:39:34Z beach: Exactly.
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2014-10-24T03:39:58Z drmeister: Are you using an a-list?
2014-10-24T03:40:22Z zyaku: Ryan_Burnside: a graphical IRC client might be fun.
2014-10-24T03:41:04Z beach: drmeister: It is more complicated than that.  Those bindings are part of the runtime environment that also contains UNWIND-PROTECT entries and CATCH tags, so it's s list of such items.
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2014-10-24T03:41:40Z beach: I'll put in some meters, but I am guessing the depth of that list will be very small in general.
2014-10-24T03:42:22Z beach: Probably < 10.
2014-10-24T03:42:45Z drmeister: I don't understand "so it's s list of such items" and I really want to - was it a typo?
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2014-10-24T03:43:12Z beach: "it's a"
2014-10-24T03:43:42Z drmeister: And global bindings - what about those?
2014-10-24T03:43:48Z beach: The runtime environment is a list of entries.  One type of entry is for special variable binding.  Another type is for catch tags.
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2014-10-24T03:44:02Z beach: A third one is for unwind-protect.
2014-10-24T03:44:57Z beach: In native machine code, the runtime environment entries will be allocated on the stack, and linked through pointers.
2014-10-24T03:45:18Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-10-24T03:45:49Z drmeister: So SYMBOL-VALUE searches this linked list and when it hits the end it looks in the global bindings.
2014-10-24T03:46:04Z beach: Yes, in the current first-class global environment.
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2014-10-24T03:46:13Z drmeister: Where are those stored?
2014-10-24T03:46:20Z beach: In the environment.
2014-10-24T03:46:33Z beach: So that I can have multiple global environments.
2014-10-24T03:46:36Z drmeister: How do you look them up quickly given a symbol.
2014-10-24T03:47:27Z beach: A function will have a value cell (a CONS cell) in its static environment.
2014-10-24T03:48:26Z beach: The CAR of that cell contains the value.
2014-10-24T03:48:53Z drmeister: I'm not following.
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2014-10-24T03:49:20Z beach: When you load the code of a function, it gets "linked" to a particular global environment.
2014-10-24T03:49:26Z drmeister: If you have the symbol *A*  - how do you get the (SYMBOL-VALUE '*A*)
2014-10-24T03:49:47Z beach: 1. Search the runtime environment.
2014-10-24T03:49:47Z drmeister: Ok.
2014-10-24T03:50:20Z beach: 2. If you don't find it, look in the CAR of the CONS cell for that variable.
2014-10-24T03:50:31Z beach: 3. Check if it is unbound.
2014-10-24T03:51:01Z beach: Think of it as a per-environment value cell.
2014-10-24T03:51:18Z drmeister: What's the CDR of the CONS cell for that variable?
2014-10-24T03:51:26Z beach: NIL.
2014-10-24T03:52:15Z beach: The environment contains this cell for each symbol that has ever been used as a variable.
2014-10-24T03:53:10Z beach: When code is loaded, a reference to the value cell in the environment is set in the static environment of the function.
2014-10-24T03:53:22Z drmeister: So every time you use (SYMBOL-VALUE 'XXX) you search the runtime environment.  That adds a lot of overhead doesn't it?
2014-10-24T03:53:31Z beach: < 10
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2014-10-24T03:54:21Z beach: drmeister: What do you think it would have to do with the current method in (say) SBCL?
2014-10-24T03:54:24Z drmeister: I see - and you don't think that it happens enough to effect performance.
2014-10-24T03:54:51Z drmeister: I don't know the details of what goes on in SBCL.
2014-10-24T03:55:11Z beach: Right.  I am betting that special variables are used fairly infrequently.
2014-10-24T03:55:36Z beach: drmeister: Well, let's see.  It would have to figure out the unique number of the symbol.
2014-10-24T03:55:59Z drmeister: In clasp when I (let ((*x* 1)) ...)  I save the value cell of *x* in a stack and put 1 in it's place.  Unwinding the stack restores the value cell of *x*.   So special symbol lookups are constant time.
2014-10-24T03:56:41Z Zhivago: Using thread-local storage?
2014-10-24T03:56:58Z drmeister: I'm not saying what you are implementing is worse.  I am a scientist - measure, test, profile.
2014-10-24T03:57:11Z Zhivago: That sounds like an engineer. :)
2014-10-24T03:57:31Z beach: drmeister: If you modify the unique cell of the symbol that way, you are not using the right semantics.
2014-10-24T03:57:49Z drmeister: Ok smart guy.  Make hypothesis, measure, test, profile - then discard failed hypothesis - rinse, lather, repeat.
2014-10-24T03:58:14Z drmeister: Am I not?
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2014-10-24T03:58:32Z beach: Other threads would see the new value then.
2014-10-24T03:58:33Z drmeister: That is disturbing - what is wrong with what I said?
2014-10-24T03:58:52Z drmeister: Ah - right, I don't have other threads at the moment.
2014-10-24T03:59:06Z beach: That, er, simplifies things.
2014-10-24T03:59:22Z drmeister: Yes. CLHS doesn't say anything about threads.
2014-10-24T03:59:25Z Zhivago: Make null hypothesis, test, repeat until bored or successful.
2014-10-24T03:59:47Z drmeister: I'm a guy who want's 100,000 processes running at the same time.  Threads are greasy kids stuff.
2014-10-24T03:59:50Z beach: drmeister: Sorry then.  This entire discussion was about how to make it work for threads.
2014-10-24T03:59:58Z Zhivago: drmeister: A man after my own heart.
2014-10-24T04:00:18Z Zhivago: drmeister: Not supporting threads might be unpopular, but it's the right approach.
2014-10-24T04:00:50Z drmeister: Admittedly, useful greasy kids stuff for listening to sockets - etc.
2014-10-24T04:01:28Z drmeister: beach: No problem, I'm cool with threads - the kids love them.
2014-10-24T04:01:39Z Zhivago: Well, that's where you run into CL's lack of support for non-blocking operations.
2014-10-24T04:02:26Z drmeister: beach: I totally see where you are coming from for implementing threading.
2014-10-24T04:03:59Z drmeister: I now have the "thread" of the conversation.  wak wak wonk.
2014-10-24T04:04:14Z zyaku: there are some pretty nifty alternatives to threading these days, aren’t there?
2014-10-24T04:05:05Z zyaku: the OS researchers seem to prefer to just use lots of processes with cheap IPC
2014-10-24T04:05:47Z Zhivago: That's because processes scale; threads are limited by shared memory semantics.
2014-10-24T04:05:56Z drmeister: Still, state == bottlenecks.  You trade a processing bottleneck for a communication bottleneck.
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2014-10-24T04:08:50Z drmeister: beach: I'll keep what you said in mind.  I haven't reached the point of implementing multi-threading but when I do, baring something better coming along, I'll probably implement what you just described.
2014-10-24T04:09:34Z Zhivago: You still have communication overhead either way -- with shared memory, the overhead is in contention.
2014-10-24T04:10:37Z drmeister: Because the index into thread-local arrays kind of bothered me wrt binding special variables.  It seemed like a lot of empty slots for the  few dozen special bindings in each thread.  I'm not sure if I'm using the correct terminology but I think you know what I mean.
2014-10-24T04:12:47Z Zhivago: Well, you can always invert the problem into a symbol-local array of threads.
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2014-10-24T04:24:29Z Zhivago: But you can always have the function search for the shared cell location on entry, and then reuse that location.
2014-10-24T04:24:38Z Zhivago: you might find that's a practical compromise.
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2014-10-24T04:27:15Z drmeister: In a multi-threaded CL - when you LOAD code - it loads into the local thread - correct?
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2014-10-24T04:28:27Z drmeister: It wouldn't make sense if functions were rebound in other threads.  Or are threads not supposed to load code?
2014-10-24T04:29:25Z Zhivago: There are no threading semantics, so the question cannot be answered.
2014-10-24T04:29:31Z drmeister: Then again, it's not part of the standard - so implementors can do whatever they feel like.
2014-10-24T04:29:38Z Zhivago: However, most systems view load as an operation that modify the global system.
2014-10-24T04:30:03Z drmeister: Ok.
2014-10-24T04:31:48Z Zhivago: With process semantics, the problem would disappear.
2014-10-24T04:32:06Z Zhivago: The trick then becomes process coordination, via communication futures or something.
2014-10-24T04:34:29Z drmeister: Hmmm, I think I'll have to put that in the 'to be understood sometime in the future' column.
2014-10-24T04:34:51Z Zhivago: Well, you don't have non-blocking i/o, so that's something you need to delegate to processes.
2014-10-24T04:35:09Z Zhivago: Which means that you then need some non-blocking process coordination to encapsulate that. :)
2014-10-24T04:35:39Z drmeister: We don't have non-blocking io in Common Lisp?
2014-10-24T04:35:53Z Zhivago: Well, apart from the one method to read a character without hanging.
2014-10-24T04:36:18Z drmeister: I see what you mean.
2014-10-24T04:36:23Z pillton: There is LISTEN.
2014-10-24T04:37:07Z Zhivago: Yeah, which you can use to see if there's a character to read. :)
2014-10-24T04:37:10Z pillton: Not exactly multiplexing I/O though.
2014-10-24T04:37:17Z Zhivago: But it's not going to get you up to sockets.
2014-10-24T04:37:41Z drmeister: Sometimes I wonder if the Common Lisp standard wasn't developed just a few years too early.
2014-10-24T04:37:45Z Zhivago: So you probably end up with an object stream interface supporting merges.
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2014-10-24T04:38:12Z Zhivago: Then you can merge the output of N processes and read them as they come in to coordinate.
2014-10-24T04:38:27Z Zhivago: It's a syncretic abomination of a number of lisp dialects with anything tricky thrown out.
2014-10-24T04:38:34Z drmeister: But then I slap myself and say "it's better than the alternatives, especially once you expose all those useful C++ libraries within it".
2014-10-24T04:38:55Z zyaku: You could just make the global environment a daemon that other lisp processes can communicate with.
2014-10-24T04:39:04Z zyaku: At that point you’ve just made yourself a kernel
2014-10-24T04:39:22Z Zhivago: Just get rid of the global environment. :)
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2014-10-24T04:47:51Z Zhivago: Invent a new socket domain.
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2014-10-24T05:19:32Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.  I'm not very good with streams (honestly I suck) but I need to bind the result of a perl script to a variable (presumably using sys:call-system-showing-output "/path/to/script.pl").  Thoughts?
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2014-10-24T05:54:50Z mveety-bsd: is common-lisp.net's git working for anyone?
2014-10-24T05:55:06Z mveety-bsd: i went to go grab ABLE but it isn't working
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2014-10-24T06:08:24Z Grue`: JokesOnYou77: you can try uiop:run-program
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2014-10-24T06:39:36Z axion: Is there a format directive like ~:d to print commas every 3 digits with floats?
2014-10-24T06:42:40Z Grue`: yes, you need to supply commachar parameter
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2014-10-24T06:43:38Z Grue`: something like (format t "~,,',:d" 10000000)
2014-10-24T06:44:08Z Grue`: (character arguments are preceded by single quote)
2014-10-24T06:44:24Z Grue`: (first two commas skip the first 2 parameters)
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2014-10-24T06:44:36Z axion: that doesnt work
2014-10-24T06:44:53Z axion: (format t "~,,',:d" 1000.33) => 1000.33
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2014-10-24T06:45:19Z Grue`: yes it does (format t "~,,',:d" 10000000) => 10,000,000
2014-10-24T06:45:37Z axion: i was looking for the result 1,000.33
2014-10-24T06:46:14Z Grue`: well, ~d is only for integers actually
2014-10-24T06:46:29Z Grue`: so you might want to print integer and float parts separately
2014-10-24T06:46:32Z axion: right. seems like i'm going to have to use floor with m-v-l or something
2014-10-24T06:46:38Z JokesOnYou77: Grue`, will that return the output?
2014-10-24T06:47:14Z Grue`: JokesOnYou77: by default yes, but it can also return a stream
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2014-10-24T06:47:53Z JokesOnYou77: It's happening again!
2014-10-24T06:48:39Z JokesOnYou77: Grue`, I'm trying to write the script so that it returns a single, lisp-readable value so I think I can use it if I van bind it to something.
2014-10-24T06:50:16Z axion: (format nil "~{~,:d~0,2f~}" (multiple-value-list (floor 1000.33))) => "1,000.33"
2014-10-24T06:50:25Z axion: thats what i came up with for anyone wondering
2014-10-24T06:50:27Z faheem_ is now known as faheem
2014-10-24T06:50:47Z Grue`: JokesOnYou77: oh, wait, you need to pass :output :string or it won't return anything
2014-10-24T06:51:02Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, that's good to know :P
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2014-10-24T06:51:39Z Grue`: axion: that breaks on negative numbers
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2014-10-24T06:52:09Z axion: i don't need to worry about negatives for this example, but if you have a fix i'm all ears
2014-10-24T06:53:01Z Grue`: well, if you replace floor with truncate... it doesn't really work either
2014-10-24T06:53:20Z axion: and it seems to work with negatives
2014-10-24T06:54:06Z Grue`: (format nil "~{~,:d~0,2f~}" (multiple-value-list (floor -1000.33))) => "-1,001.67"
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2014-10-24T06:54:29Z axion: ah yes
2014-10-24T06:54:45Z axion: fortunately i don't have to worry about input being negative
2014-10-24T06:54:55Z axion: can't think of a solution though
2014-10-24T06:56:13Z Grue`: (format nil "~{~,:d~0,2f~}" (list (truncate x) (abs (rem x 1))))
2014-10-24T06:57:16Z axion: nice
2014-10-24T06:57:38Z JokesOnYou77: uiop worked!  Ty btw
2014-10-24T06:58:06Z JokesOnYou77: So now I have a string that looks like "( foo bar )" but I want a list :/
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2014-10-24T06:59:30Z Grue`: if you have control over the output of the script, you can use READ
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2014-10-24T07:00:25Z Grue`: READ-FROM-STRING I mean
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2014-10-24T07:00:47Z Shinmera: And if you only have symbols without spaces a cl-ppcre:split would do it.
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2014-10-24T07:01:42Z Grue`: yeah normally I would parse it manually, but since it seems like a script JokesOnYou77 wrote, might as well use the reader
2014-10-24T07:02:14Z JokesOnYou77: Actually, the output is from a perl script.  I don't really know perl but it's the only library I could find that would do what I want so here we are :P
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2014-10-24T07:04:18Z JokesOnYou77: beautiful!
2014-10-24T07:04:24Z Shinmera: If you do end up using the reader after all, at least bind *read-eval* to NIL.
2014-10-24T07:04:33Z JokesOnYou77: ?
2014-10-24T07:05:03Z JokesOnYou77: I think I am indeed using the reader.  Could you elaborate?
2014-10-24T07:05:31Z Grue`: well it's highly unlikely that perl script would ever output #. followed by valid lisp code, isn't it?
2014-10-24T07:05:42Z Shinmera: Sure, but it won't hurt to
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2014-10-24T07:06:35Z Shinmera: JokesOnYou77: The reader macro #. allows you to execute arbitrary lisp code at read-time.
2014-10-24T07:06:59Z Shinmera: JokesOnYou77: So if you read a string with it allowed it could ruin your system.
2014-10-24T07:08:46Z JokesOnYou77: As it turns out there are actually a number of sharps in the output.  I've already gotten a PACKAGE-NOT-FOUND error lol.  I ended up escaping the output of the script so that every list item is a string, which solved that problem
2014-10-24T07:09:51Z JokesOnYou77: Does that suffice, or should I still bind the global?
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2014-10-24T07:10:22Z Shinmera: As long as you are sure that nothing can escape the strings it'll be fine.
2014-10-24T07:12:16Z JokesOnYou77: I have complete control over the script being run.  But I do take your point.  Malicious output is always an unnecessary risk.
2014-10-24T07:12:32Z JokesOnYou77: Err...input
2014-10-24T07:13:05Z Shinmera: If only data could be shared directly without the need for serialising.
2014-10-24T07:13:15Z Shinmera dreams of a LispOs
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2014-10-24T07:19:45Z JokesOnYou77: LispOs?
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2014-10-24T07:20:19Z Shinmera: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2014-10-24T07:22:37Z Ryan_Burnside: LispOs? You mean Symbolics?
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2014-10-24T07:22:55Z JokesOnYou77: OMG this sounds a lot like my boss when he reminices about how you used to need a Lisp card to run anything at all and the disks were just 1s and 0s with no filesystem.
2014-10-24T07:23:24Z Ryan_Burnside: Lisp...card?
2014-10-24T07:23:46Z Ryan_Burnside: I only really have heard of IBM 80 column punched cards.
2014-10-24T07:23:46Z JokesOnYou77: Back in the early days you needed a hardware implementation to run Lisp
2014-10-24T07:24:27Z JokesOnYou77: Literally an add-in card that contained the entire OS and environment and bottstrapped itself from disk
2014-10-24T07:24:31Z Ryan_Burnside: Sure, I've heard of chips designed to run Lisp.
2014-10-24T07:24:43Z JokesOnYou77: yeah , that one
2014-10-24T07:24:56Z Ryan_Burnside: Symbolics was the company really pushing them.
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2014-10-24T08:23:33Z jusss: everything in lisp is symbolic expressions ? right ?
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2014-10-24T08:23:54Z stassats: naturally
2014-10-24T08:23:55Z minion: stassats, memo from pjb: calling C++ is hard for everything, in the context of libraries, even from C++ (if you don't use the same C++ compiler).
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2014-10-24T08:29:16Z loke: stassats: But fear not, for the C++ standards comittee is working on definining a 2D API. CLearly much more important than a consistent calling convention.
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2014-10-24T08:31:05Z stassats: sounds exactly like what C++ would do
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2014-10-24T08:42:14Z loke: http://lists.cairographics.org/archives/cairo/2013-December/024858.html
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2014-10-24T08:42:52Z loke: I had to look twice to make sure it wasn't posted on 1st April.
2014-10-24T08:44:22Z Shinmera: I really don't know what to think of that.
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2014-10-24T08:52:39Z wasamasa: herbs
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2014-10-24T08:54:26Z wasamasa: so, he's a MS evangelist?
2014-10-24T08:54:31Z wasamasa: why does that not surprise me at all
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2014-10-24T08:57:02Z wasamasa: oh, he's the guy who wrote The Free Lunch Is Over
2014-10-24T08:58:28Z loke: I'm just very glad to see they are focusing on fixing the fundamental problems with C++ (i.e. the lack of 2D API)
2014-10-24T08:59:24Z wasamasa: you know, someone should temporarily let him off from the commitee until he fixes concurrency and calling conventions for C++
2014-10-24T08:59:26Z Shinmera: Well C++ wants to have everything, so obviously not having a 2D API is a crucial issue.
2014-10-24T08:59:32Z wasamasa: then he can go on with having that 2d api
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2014-10-24T09:00:09Z Zhivago: 2D api or a geometry api? :)
2014-10-24T09:00:11Z Shinmera: Re: concurrency "revolution": I guess he didn't anticipate JS.
2014-10-24T09:00:54Z Zhivago: Well, JS got it right.
2014-10-24T09:01:09Z Zhivago: Processes all the way, algorithmic evaluation.
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2014-10-24T09:10:32Z loke: I was about to make a joke about C++ wanting to standardise an api for X, where X is th emost ridiculous API imaginable. However, all API's I could think of were things I wouldn't be surprised to see them actually try to standardise before a standard ABI.
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2014-10-24T09:11:37Z Shinmera: My guess is that making a standard ABI would make too much of an uproar, so might as well do anything else.
2014-10-24T09:11:53Z Shinmera: After all, the money's there.
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2014-10-24T09:12:26Z loke: Shinmera: True. It's something that most users wouldn't be able to happily ignore, which is different from all the other added features they tacked on to C++
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2014-10-24T09:49:21Z bjorkintosh: does common lisp have a 2D or geometry api?
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2014-10-24T09:52:02Z loke: bjorkintosh: Not a standard one
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2014-10-24T09:52:07Z loke: but Cairo is available
2014-10-24T09:52:33Z bjorkintosh: right.
2014-10-24T09:52:43Z bjorkintosh: so let's let the serious languages standardize things :)
2014-10-24T09:53:00Z bjorkintosh: CL might learn a thing or two from CPP yet.
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2014-10-24T10:04:36Z prxq: how do i install tha abcl contribs?
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2014-10-24T10:49:13Z twistsm: (hello (everyone))
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2014-10-24T10:58:40Z Cheery: I'd need to explain why dropping homoiconicity in favor of readability is a tradeoff
2014-10-24T10:59:55Z Cheery: for that a person would need to understand what is lost.
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2014-10-24T11:02:59Z Cheery: the program internal representation can be inferred by reading the text's layout..
2014-10-24T11:03:36Z Cheery: actually that's incorrect.. you can do that on python too.
2014-10-24T11:03:47Z Cheery: need to find a correct definition first..
2014-10-24T11:05:18Z Cheery: am I even using the correct term..
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2014-10-24T11:06:26Z Cheery: not just the homoiconicity.. the genericity.
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2014-10-24T13:01:34Z drmeister: What is genericity?
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2014-10-24T13:02:35Z drmeister: I read the wiki definition.
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2014-10-24T13:27:49Z ggole: My understanding it that it is defining constructs that are parametric, but expect a certain kind of "shape" from the parameter
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2014-10-24T13:52:19Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here ever using McCLIM?
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2014-10-24T14:49:48Z prxq: what's the best way of finding out where a reader macro is defined? I have a case of #\[
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2014-10-24T14:51:59Z _death: get-macro-character and M-. on the resulting function might work
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2014-10-24T14:54:00Z prxq: already tried that
2014-10-24T14:54:21Z Xach: What happened?
2014-10-24T14:54:23Z billstclair: (get-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\[), and if that doesn't work, look for callers of set-dispatch-macro-character.
2014-10-24T14:54:37Z prxq: hm... this is allegro. maybe it has #\[ built in
2014-10-24T14:54:48Z billstclair: But if the call was top-level with an unnamed function as the value, you can't find it, short of grepping source code
2014-10-24T14:54:59Z prxq: Xach: got back a function that didn't react to M-,
2014-10-24T14:55:03Z prxq: M-. i mean
2014-10-24T14:55:59Z Xach: prxq: what was the name of the function? (i'm just curious, i don't know if i can help)
2014-10-24T14:56:16Z prxq: READ-TOKEN :-)
2014-10-24T14:57:43Z nyef: If it's defined in an implementation package, now's the time to dig out the manual.
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2014-10-24T14:59:17Z prxq: grepping through the sources helped somewhat, because I found two places where the macro char is set.
2014-10-24T15:00:27Z prxq: ok it's rdnzl
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2014-10-24T15:11:52Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-10-24T15:12:23Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-10-24T15:12:41Z beach: CrazyWoods: I still use McCLIM.
2014-10-24T15:12:45Z prxq: hi beach
2014-10-24T15:13:24Z beach: What did I miss?
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2014-10-24T15:23:55Z beach: This is the protocol I suggest for SICL global environments: http://metamodular.com/generic-functions.lisp in case anyone has any remarks.  It is not quite complete yet.
2014-10-24T15:25:25Z beach: That protocol is then used to implement Common Lisp environment macros such as defvar, defun, defmacro, deftype, etc.  But also the compiler functions varaible-info, function-info, etc.
2014-10-24T15:25:58Z beach: variable
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2014-10-24T15:28:48Z nyef: Is (SETF FUNCTION-TYPE) supposed to be used for FTYPE proclamations?
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2014-10-24T15:29:00Z beach: Yes
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2014-10-24T15:29:21Z nyef: It's legal, AFAIK, to declaim an FTYPE before defining the function.
2014-10-24T15:29:52Z beach: OK.  Do you have a page where I can see that?
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2014-10-24T15:30:02Z nyef: In which case, what you want is an error when attempting to set the name to something OTHER than an ordinary or generic function.
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2014-10-24T15:31:43Z beach: Once the type has been proclaimed you mean?
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2014-10-24T15:32:05Z nyef: Yeah.
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2014-10-24T15:32:17Z beach: I see.
2014-10-24T15:32:25Z nyef: Trying to find a reference for declaring an ftype of a not-yet-defined function.
2014-10-24T15:32:41Z beach: No rush.
2014-10-24T15:33:09Z beach: I have not seen anything like that.  It may be there anyway, of course.
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2014-10-24T15:34:30Z beach: I noticed SBCL lets you define a SETF expander for a name that is not defined to be a function or a macro.  But at least one Common Lisp HyperSpec page I read, says it has to be defined.
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2014-10-24T15:35:06Z Shinmera: SBCL is more lenient than the spec declares in more than one situation, it seems.
2014-10-24T15:35:21Z Guest9751: hey, anybody familiar with answer set programming?
2014-10-24T15:35:53Z beach: Shinmera: True.  But I think the ambition of the SBCL developers is for SBCL to be strict.
2014-10-24T15:35:58Z Shinmera: beach: I've done ftype declaims before the defun and I don't recall that breaking anywhere.
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2014-10-24T15:36:38Z |3b|: beach: ftype declarations apply to call sites, not function definitions, so it at least seems reasonable that the definition isn't required, since you can compile call sites first as well
2014-10-24T15:36:41Z beach: Shinmera: Yes, me too.  But I am interested in knowing what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says about it.
2014-10-24T15:36:59Z beach: |3b|: That's a good point.
2014-10-24T15:37:29Z Shinmera: beach: I only said that I didn't see it break because I was unable to find anything in the spec on the quick.
2014-10-24T15:37:30Z |3b|: also they can be 'free declarations' which is pretty open
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2014-10-24T15:38:24Z beach: Actually, this discussion makes me think that there is some state of a function definition that i am missing in that protocol, namely knowing its lambda list, but not its definition.
2014-10-24T15:38:38Z beach: ... corresponding to the information a compiler would add at compile time.
2014-10-24T15:39:42Z beach: It is always great to submit ideas to #lisp participants, because the feedback is almost always valuable.
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2014-10-24T15:41:08Z nyef: Oh, neat. Proclaiming TYPE for a variable before setting its value invokes undefined consequences.
2014-10-24T15:41:32Z beach: Aha!
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2014-10-24T15:42:09Z beach: What about making it unbound after its type has been proclaimed?
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2014-10-24T15:43:29Z nyef: Hrm. Maybe I'm wrong, the entire situation seems ambiguous.
2014-10-24T15:44:44Z beach: Another section for my book "Common Lisp for language implementers".
2014-10-24T15:45:16Z ggole: Wonder if that stems from representation
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2014-10-24T15:46:51Z ggole: eg you would want to make it possible to represent an (unsigned-byte 32) densely, leaving no room for a special value to indicate "unbound"
2014-10-24T15:47:34Z splittist: So if I have a symbol that has both a special-operator and a macro definition, and I want to remove the macro definition, I have to save the special-operator definition [object], fmakunbound, then setf special-operator?
2014-10-24T15:48:19Z |3b|: where did you get mutable special-operators to start with?
2014-10-24T15:48:24Z beach: splittist: I think you can use NIL with (SETF MACRO-FUNCTION).  No?
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2014-10-24T15:48:50Z |3b|: oh, that was in response to beach?
2014-10-24T15:49:08Z |3b| lost track of context for a bit
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2014-10-24T15:50:17Z splittist: beach: that isn't explained as an option
2014-10-24T15:50:30Z splittist: (as I read it)
2014-10-24T15:50:37Z beach: splittist: Hmm.  OK.  I'll fix that.
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2014-10-24T15:53:13Z beach: While cogitating about first-class global environments, I was thinking that they might solve some bootstrapping problems that SBCL solves by renaming packages.  But I don't know the details of SBCL bootstrapping, so I am not sure about that.
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2014-10-24T15:55:27Z beach: splittist: You are right.  That's an omission.  Fixed it.
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2014-10-24T16:25:49Z Grue`: yay, my site is (kinda) working http://ichi.moe/cl/qr/?q=そういう場合もあります
2014-10-24T16:26:29Z Grue`: now to find out how to automatically restart hunchentoot when it inevitably crashes
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2014-10-24T16:27:13Z Xach: inevitably?
2014-10-24T16:27:32Z Xach had good luck with it not crashing
2014-10-24T16:27:45Z Grue`: due to bugs in my code of course
2014-10-24T16:28:03Z Grue`: and/or VPS shutting down for some reason
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2014-10-24T16:34:04Z Shinmera: Hunchentoot has been working just dandy for me. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.10.24-18:33:53.png
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2014-10-24T16:37:50Z wglb`: .
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2014-10-24T16:42:52Z Ryan_Burnside: Good morning folks. I've gotten 4 hours of sleep and am in a really good mood swing for now.
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2014-10-24T16:50:19Z beach: Ryan_Burnside: I have heard of being in a good mood, but not in a good mood swing.
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2014-10-24T16:50:50Z beach: Not that the subject is on topic, though.
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2014-10-24T18:22:11Z rpg: Does anyone know who "owns" the ILC these days?
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2014-10-24T18:24:14Z rpg: was a little surprised (and disappointed) that the ilc.org link just jumps to the most recent conference, instead of a common page linking to pages for each year's conference (which seems more typical).
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2014-10-24T18:33:16Z stacksmith_: Is there a way to see the actual sexps of a compiled function in SBCL?
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2014-10-24T18:34:45Z |3b| isn't sure a compiled function still has 'actual sexps', unless you just mean "look at the source"
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2014-10-24T18:36:06Z |3b|: sbcl doesn't normally save an extra copy of whatever is being compiled during compilation (aside from possibly some bits used to find the source stored in the debug info, but i may be confusing that with slime/swank)
2014-10-24T18:36:38Z nyef: IIRC, it might save it if it's a definition entered at the REPL, but otherwise it's just information on how to find it in the source file.
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2014-10-24T18:37:38Z stacksmith_: Thanks.  I had a git mishap, lost the source of a function that's in the image... Not too much work to redo...
2014-10-24T18:38:04Z nyef: A git mishap?
2014-10-24T18:38:16Z nyef: Accidentally reset your working tree?
2014-10-24T18:38:30Z Xach: rpg: as far as i know, still the alu
2014-10-24T18:39:14Z rpg: Xach: thanks, Xach. I'll check in with them. For some reason 2009 isn't indexed on DBLP although most of the other conference proceedings are...
2014-10-24T18:39:17Z stacksmith_: ech. Had some unsaved files in Emacs apparently, etc.
2014-10-24T18:40:49Z stacksmith_: The gazillion buffers created by SBCL restarts... I am still trying to figure out a workflow that is sane.
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2014-10-24T18:41:46Z |3b|: ,restart-inferior-lisp at repl doesn't usually create any extra buffers for me
2014-10-24T18:42:33Z prxq: anyone knows how, if ever, spam used to be filtered out from paste.lisp.org?
2014-10-24T18:43:37Z stacksmith_: |3b| I mean error / restart messages during debugging, the ones that take create a new buffer and take over a random window in Emacs.
2014-10-24T18:43:42Z nyef: prxq: There is/was a dedicated admin interface for deleting spam pastes.
2014-10-24T18:44:09Z nyef: prxq: Failing that, pastes should be deletable from the REPL if you know what you're doing.
2014-10-24T18:44:18Z prxq: nyef: so - manual? hm.
2014-10-24T18:44:55Z prxq: nyef: ok. well, I think I'll wait a little before commiting to that adventure.
2014-10-24T18:45:03Z nyef: There might be a more automatic process, but if there is then I don't know of it. Could have been added after I stopped helping out on the implementation side.
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2014-10-24T18:51:48Z stacksmith_: Bizzare.  Now Emacs is really vocal about files changing on disk, even though there shouldn't be any changes after a git commit...
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2014-10-24T18:54:00Z stacksmith_: I am a magnet for strange behaviour.  Time to quit Emacs, see what's in git repos and start over.
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2014-10-24T18:55:38Z rpg: stacksmith_: I find using vc-dir mode keeps me more sane by keeping the buffers synced with the disk...
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2014-10-24T18:57:29Z stacksmith_: rpg, thanks, I have to do something, and vc-dir may be it...
2014-10-24T18:58:00Z |3b|: magit is also popular for git-within-emacs
2014-10-24T19:00:04Z dlowe: <3 magit
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2014-10-24T19:02:55Z rpg: I have to use svn and git, so I ended up with vc-dir. If you're able to be git exclusively another library might be better. But the key thing is not to have emacs and the disk get out of sync.
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2014-10-24T19:41:27Z DickGates: Greatings lispers are there any who would want to create a common lisp/Linux distribution?
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2014-10-24T19:42:04Z Grue`: how would that even work?
2014-10-24T19:42:06Z Shinmera: What does that even mean.
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2014-10-24T19:44:09Z DickGates: Well I envisage a highly hackable platform instead of a bash terminal or  DE one boots directly into a repel
2014-10-24T19:44:51Z DickGates: A well documented programable Window manager
2014-10-24T19:45:00Z mwsb: StumpWM or its fork?
2014-10-24T19:45:14Z DickGates: caplable of displaying HTML5
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2014-10-24T19:45:56Z DickGates: StumpWM could be a start
2014-10-24T19:45:57Z Shinmera: And this is where I lose interest in the conversation.
2014-10-24T19:46:14Z mwsb: I imagine that's up to the browser more then anything else, but I can certainly do html5 videos in stumpwm.
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2014-10-24T19:47:58Z pjb: Grue`: I've got an hunchentoot server with: * (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.INTERACTIVE:UPTIME) --> uptime: 6 years, 1 month, 19 days, 14 hours, 52 minutes, 45 seconds.
2014-10-24T19:47:58Z pjb:  
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2014-10-24T19:48:53Z dlowe: all you have to do is replicate the work of the past 20 years with a group of ragtag misfit engineers.
2014-10-24T19:49:28Z stacksmith_: Why not make a viral video while doing it...
2014-10-24T19:50:09Z Grue`: pjb: sweet
2014-10-24T19:50:20Z stacksmith_: And crowdsource it!  Yeah.
2014-10-24T19:50:22Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.  How can I check is a string contains a space? I know this is silly, but I have real trouble dealing with things that aren't already lists :/
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2014-10-24T19:50:32Z dlowe: JokesOnYou77: (find #\space string)
2014-10-24T19:50:52Z dlowe: JokesOnYou77: check out the sequence operations - all lists are sequences, too
2014-10-24T19:51:49Z JokesOnYou77: you're brilliant.  Here I was messing around with coercion and MEMBER.  Should have known there was a sequence equivalent.  TY!
2014-10-24T19:51:55Z pjb: DickGates: have a look at: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=summary&p=public/lep
2014-10-24T19:52:29Z Grue`: I was about to joke that you can turn string into a list, but you actually did that for real!
2014-10-24T19:53:11Z pjb: Grue`: find doesn't coerce anything.
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2014-10-24T19:53:35Z Grue`: I'm aware of that
2014-10-24T19:54:02Z pjb: ok, you were referening JokesOnYou77's solution.
2014-10-24T19:54:11Z pjb: s/n//
2014-10-24T19:54:30Z DickGates: pjb:Thanks for the pointer
2014-10-24T19:54:43Z JokesOnYou77: Well...I came here first, because I figured I was being an idiot :P
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2014-10-24T19:59:11Z DickGates: pjb:Why did you stop the project
2014-10-24T19:59:33Z DickGates: pjb:this is what I have in mind
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2014-10-24T20:04:32Z pjb: DickGates: I didn't stop it!
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2014-10-24T20:04:58Z pjb: I'm only working on it when time permits (which is to say, when the IRS and other creditors permit).
2014-10-24T20:06:01Z pjb: DickGates: So perhaps in addition to people providing patches, or writing documentation, we'd need people setting up kickstarters or whatever to bring in money (to saciate the hungry hienas after us).
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2014-10-24T20:11:35Z DickGates: pjb:I see. Would such a distro attract funds though?
2014-10-24T20:11:56Z pjb: It's a difficult question.
2014-10-24T20:12:56Z pjb: Perhaps the mathematical expectancy is higher of having a lisper making a fortune (like a few did, cf Paul Graham, or (I assume) people at ITA), and using the funds to develop a Lisp OS, just like Armstrong did with Ubuntu.
2014-10-24T20:13:32Z pjb: I'd think that most of us think so, since we're I still assume, all busy working on our lisp start ups ;-)
2014-10-24T20:13:52Z nyef: I have one, very simple, question for all of the "let's make an all-lisp linux distro" people: aren't there already enough pieces out there to construct a basic system? SBCL as /bin/init, use the sysinit file to bring in whatever else, run-program to get an X server started, fire up stumpwm or something, and go?
2014-10-24T20:14:02Z pjb: The problem is that we're too smart to think about easy dumb stuff like an Yo! application.
2014-10-24T20:14:27Z pjb: nyef: yes, there are a lot of pieces. Hence the project we're discussing now.
2014-10-24T20:14:54Z prxq: it would be fun. but stumpwm is really an acquired taste, afaict
2014-10-24T20:15:28Z H4ns: quite some stuff needs to be written in order to fully boot a system
2014-10-24T20:15:40Z H4ns: i.e. fs mounting, network configuration and the like.
2014-10-24T20:15:41Z pjb: I may have introduced some confusion by saying "Lisp OS".  Beach's Lisp OS project would be an entirely different kernel.  My "LEP" project is a Lisp user land over unix kernel thing.
2014-10-24T20:15:49Z H4ns: not too hard, but time consuming
2014-10-24T20:15:50Z jdz: rewrite systemd in lisp!
2014-10-24T20:15:55Z H4ns: \o/
2014-10-24T20:16:01Z pjb: But from the user point of view both systems could be close enough.
2014-10-24T20:16:05Z jdz: everybody will welcome lisp, then
2014-10-24T20:16:21Z H4ns: right.  and torvalds will go just bonkers
2014-10-24T20:16:44Z pjb: Well, if systemd spreads too much I might switch to openbsd.
2014-10-24T20:17:44Z jdz: pjb: why wait?
2014-10-24T20:17:57Z pjb: That said, LEP, even if using a unix kernel, may be quite different from a usual unix system (like Android is quite different).
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2014-10-24T20:18:11Z pjb: jdz: for a unix system, I like the simplicity of BSD boot scripts.
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2014-10-24T20:18:37Z jdz: i personally have never found them simple
2014-10-24T20:18:44Z jdz: and they're shell scripts moste of the time
2014-10-24T20:18:52Z jdz: i'm allergic to shell scripts
2014-10-24T20:18:53Z pjb: Yes, that's why it's simple :-)
2014-10-24T20:19:15Z jdz: i find shell scripts complicated
2014-10-24T20:19:24Z jdz: so much weird unpredictable rules
2014-10-24T20:19:49Z pjb: Granted, the language is bad. The principle is good however.
2014-10-24T20:19:49Z Ryan_Burnside: I can only imagine Torvalds going bonkers over lisp.
2014-10-24T20:19:49Z pjb: See, the thing is that computer software should be _readable_ by _people_, if GNU/FSF goals are to be advanced.
2014-10-24T20:19:52Z Ryan_Burnside: So much profanity.
2014-10-24T20:20:34Z Ryan_Burnside: Speaking of Lisp in GNU/Linux, does anyone recall a chart saying roughly how much of each language the software represents?
2014-10-24T20:20:35Z DickGates: bash scripts are so hard to read
2014-10-24T20:21:02Z Ryan_Burnside: $whatdoyoumean
2014-10-24T20:21:10Z jdz: if GNU is to succeed, the'll have to pick a higher level language to write the system in, because C, frankly, has proven to be a bad choice
2014-10-24T20:21:16Z Ryan_Burnside: wat
2014-10-24T20:21:22Z pjb: But for example, this won't be this week end that I'll be making any progress on LispOS or LEP.  Still have to work on a paid project.
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2014-10-24T20:21:23Z pjb: jdz:  yes.
2014-10-24T20:21:42Z jasom: jdz: yes, clearly GNU hs failed big time; nobody at all uses a gnu userspace...
2014-10-24T20:21:58Z pjb: And by the way, I'm really surprised that RMS didn't switch to lisp and actually reboot the GNU project toward a Lisp OS, given that was his initial goal.
2014-10-24T20:21:59Z Ryan_Burnside: Everyone is running scared of Lisp (save the Clojure kids) because of "Scary Parens Syndrome or SPS".
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2014-10-24T20:22:24Z prxq: Ryan_Burnside: where are people running scared?
2014-10-24T20:22:25Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: well Clojure kids use brackets and braces too, IIRC.
2014-10-24T20:23:08Z DickGates: Why dont we role our sleeves and get CL-Linux going
2014-10-24T20:23:10Z Ryan_Burnside: I'm just making the assumption that Clojure has more visibility to hipsters and young people.
2014-10-24T20:23:18Z jdz: jasom: which part of the GNU software do you find especially readable?
2014-10-24T20:23:41Z pjb: DickGates: because I've got invoices to pay, so if I don't work on paid project instead I won't even be able to work at all.
2014-10-24T20:24:03Z pjb: DickGates: hence my promoting of citizen revenue.
2014-10-24T20:24:16Z Ryan_Burnside: Am I allowed to coin the term "Scary Parens Syndrome or SPS"? The irrational fear a person faces when trying something that doesn't look like C and contains s expressions.
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2014-10-24T20:24:44Z DickGates: Getting started means even sorting the finances out
2014-10-24T20:25:08Z JokesOnYou77: I set (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3))) at the top of my file but when I (load (compile-file myfile.lisp)) the compiler prints that debug = 2 How do I get this to stick?
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2014-10-24T20:25:45Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: toplevel forms are compiled, and things are set up to execute them when the fasl file is loaded.
2014-10-24T20:25:55Z pjb: Or they are evaluated when you load the source file.
2014-10-24T20:26:05Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: therefore they cannot have any effect when you compile the file.
2014-10-24T20:26:05Z nyef: clhs declaim
2014-10-24T20:26:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm
2014-10-24T20:26:09Z jasom: pjb: out of curiousity, what's your plan for programs running on LEP; everything in a single process, or separate processes?
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2014-10-24T20:26:37Z jasom: most lisp runtimes have significant overhead so the unixy process separation gets expsive...
2014-10-24T20:26:38Z jdz: containers!
2014-10-24T20:26:40Z pjb: jasom: separate processes mostly.
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2014-10-24T20:27:34Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, So basically, I can't do that with proclaim.  I shuld declaim my compiler settings if I want them paid attention to
2014-10-24T20:27:40Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: to have toplevel forms evaluated at compilation time, you need to use (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3)))), which is exactly what (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) expands to.
2014-10-24T20:27:59Z pjb: So yes, better use declaim, in general.
2014-10-24T20:28:37Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, this is helpful.  There's so much you don't have to learn when you do this in school vs. work :P
2014-10-24T20:29:06Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: schools cannot fill your brain with everything: you have to learn by yourself.
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2014-10-24T20:29:17Z JokesOnYou77: No kidding lol
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2014-10-24T20:30:31Z DickGates: pjb:Would it be easier to base the distro on another distro or build from scratch?
2014-10-24T20:31:23Z pjb: Since I'd want to have 100% of lisp code, I'd proceed by aggregating lisp programs only.
2014-10-24T20:31:28Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, now I have to ask, is there any way at all to get line numbers in debugging statements in emacs?
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2014-10-24T20:32:32Z pjb: DickGates: A few years ago I did: https://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html ; the same principle: boot ccl (or sbcl) on a linux kernel, set things up (to start, you only need to mount / actually), and then fork other lisp processes to run servers and user programs.
2014-10-24T20:32:50Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2007-12-19-pretty-sbcl-backtraces.html has a technique. it's one of those things where once you know enough to do it, you know enough to not need it, though.
2014-10-24T20:33:03Z pjb: DickGates: if you have C code to run, use the Vacietis :-)
2014-10-24T20:33:17Z pjb: DickGates: also we have javascript, python and other languages implemented in CL.
2014-10-24T20:33:49Z pjb: Once we've got something running, we can also work on Movitz to run the userland over Movitz.
2014-10-24T20:34:25Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: you don't need line numbers, with slime/emacs, you just type v in the sldb debugger to jump to the source forms.
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2014-10-24T20:34:28Z jdz: JokesOnYou77: why do you need the line numebers if you can jump straight to the exact source location?
2014-10-24T20:35:30Z pjb: JokesOnYou77for example if you write (list (+ 1 2) (/ 1 0) (* 2 3))  you want to jump to (/ 1 0), not to (list…).
2014-10-24T20:35:42Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, I was afraid of that :/  We use LispWorks at work so I have emacs/slime running a lispworks interactive image but the LW ide has go-to funciton ability that I can't figure out in emacs.  I don't know how to make the compilation tags table or whatever it is work
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2014-10-24T20:36:04Z JokesOnYou77: Wait, I can just hit v?
2014-10-24T20:36:05Z JokesOnYou77: O.O
2014-10-24T20:36:36Z dlowe: If you have compile set to 3 (done in slime with C-u C-c C-c), it'll take you to the exact form
2014-10-24T20:36:37Z JokesOnYou77: Cannot resolve location :UNKNOWN
2014-10-24T20:36:39Z JokesOnYou77: :<
2014-10-24T20:36:48Z dlowe: er, optimize debug set to 3
2014-10-24T20:37:42Z dlowe: .. let me start over.  If you compile the function with optimize (debug 3) set, which you can do in slime with C-u C-c C-c, pressing v on a slime debug frame will take you to the exact form
2014-10-24T20:37:51Z DickGates: pjb:Great work you got there. I once did the Linux From Scratch summer of 2007
2014-10-24T20:38:07Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: You can get the :UNKNOWN message for system functions or otherwise source-unavilable functions. but for the most part your own code is accessible.
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2014-10-24T20:38:28Z JokesOnYou77: Cool!
2014-10-24T20:38:28Z DickGates: So you mean the installer will be in Lisp as well?
2014-10-24T20:38:34Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: I used lispworks+slime a lot and I can't think of anything I missed over my usual setup of sbcl, other than easy access to implementation source.
2014-10-24T20:38:56Z JokesOnYou77: You can get access to implementation source O.O
2014-10-24T20:39:17Z pjb: DickGates: yes, everything.
2014-10-24T20:39:32Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: sure. it's just not as easy.
2014-10-24T20:40:03Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, Can I jump to the source of a loaded function when not in the debug pane
2014-10-24T20:40:04Z JokesOnYou77: ?
2014-10-24T20:40:16Z pjb: Yes, with M-.
2014-10-24T20:40:31Z pjb: (my-function M-. --> jump to (defun my-function …).
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2014-10-24T20:41:23Z DickGates: What about building the linux kernel?
2014-10-24T20:41:28Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: and come back with M-,
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2014-10-24T20:41:43Z pjb: DickGates: for now, I take it in binary form.  Later, we'll use Movitz.
2014-10-24T20:41:51Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, could you run that one by me again?  meta- then what?
2014-10-24T20:42:13Z jasom: JokesOnYou77: hold alt and press the period
2014-10-24T20:42:14Z pjb: Meta dot or Meta comma.
2014-10-24T20:43:38Z JokesOnYou77: OMG that's awesome! HAHA!
2014-10-24T20:43:48Z JokesOnYou77: How about who-calls?
2014-10-24T20:43:59Z pjb: M-x slime-who-calls
2014-10-24T20:44:20Z pjb: You could bind it to any key you like too.
2014-10-24T20:44:47Z jasom: C-c C-w C-c is default IIRC
2014-10-24T20:45:50Z JokesOnYou77: Sweet!!!
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2014-10-24T20:46:53Z JokesOnYou77: Oh man, now I never have to use the LW IDE again!  I love this channel.  Thank you guys
2014-10-24T20:47:11Z nyef: Is there something wrong with the LW IDE?
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2014-10-24T20:50:35Z francogrex: if you have the personal edition I thought they had prevented integration with emacs
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2014-10-24T20:53:07Z DickGates: pjb:I think CLIM needs some revamp
2014-10-24T20:53:33Z Ryan_Burnside: I'll second that.
2014-10-24T20:53:59Z jasom: I got a CLIM application to work once
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2014-10-24T20:54:27Z Ryan_Burnside: Did it require a pagan ritual?
2014-10-24T20:54:30Z Ryan_Burnside: ;)
2014-10-24T20:54:35Z Ryan_Burnside: Pact with the devil?
2014-10-24T20:54:42Z jasom: no goats were sacrificed
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2014-10-24T20:55:21Z Ryan_Burnside: I'm one of those people who don't care about how modern a GUI looks, I just need something that WORKs well and is easy on the programmer.
2014-10-24T20:55:32Z Ryan_Burnside: Tk/Tcl is fine by me.
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2014-10-24T20:57:00Z beppu: I need to turn '(1 2 3) into '((1 2 3) (2 3) (3)) .
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2014-10-24T20:57:06Z beppu: So far, I have:  (defun ir (lst) (when lst (list lst (ir (cdr lst)))))
2014-10-24T20:57:20Z DickGates: I like things that work well too + lots of eye candy
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2014-10-24T20:57:58Z beppu: (ir '(1 2 3)) => ((1 2 3) ((2 3) ((3) NIL)))
2014-10-24T20:58:09Z beppu: How do I keep it from nesting?
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2014-10-24T21:00:27Z Ryan_Burnside: beppy you might be able to use the collect clause of the LOOP macro
2014-10-24T21:00:28Z H4ns: beppu: (maplist #'identity '(1 2 3))
2014-10-24T21:00:34Z Ryan_Burnside: or that :)
2014-10-24T21:01:10Z jasom: beppu: change the "list" call to "cons"
2014-10-24T21:01:28Z jasom: and then draw out the resultant linked-list if you don't see why that fixes it.
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2014-10-24T21:02:07Z jasom: but H4ns's solution is the simpler way of doing it.
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2014-10-24T21:02:39Z beppu: let me try..  thanks
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2014-10-24T21:03:24Z jasom: what book is it that starts out with pretty diagrams of lists?
2014-10-24T21:03:29Z JokesOnYou77: nyef, There's nothing particularly wrong with it.  But I strongly prefer the functionality of emacs, especially buffers.  Also, I have the professional edition through work so I can make an interactive image of the entire Lisp and use it as the back end for slime
2014-10-24T21:03:46Z jasom: Touretzky
2014-10-24T21:04:39Z jasom: beppu: if you're having trouble visualizing the list structure, check out here (there is a PDF): http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2014-10-24T21:05:40Z jasom: beppu: chapter 2 in particular
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2014-10-24T21:15:37Z JokesOnYou77: So the other day someone here helped me use uiop:run-program to capture the stdout from a perl script and I tested it and it worked and it was great.  But now it only returns NIL :<
2014-10-24T21:16:25Z Grue`: you're passing :output :string right?
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2014-10-24T21:18:03Z JokesOnYou77: :OUTPUT fell through ETYPECASE expression ?
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2014-10-24T21:18:44Z JokesOnYou77: I'm just doing (uiop:run-program "path/to/script.pl") and I swear it worked the other day :/
2014-10-24T21:19:12Z Grue`: it returns nil by default I think
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2014-10-24T21:20:23Z Grue`: "E.g., using :OUTPUT :STRING will have it return the entire output stream as a string." I don't know what you're doing wrong
2014-10-24T21:20:36Z jasom: :output needs to be a value that is suitable first argument to slurp-input-stream, or a list of sucha a value and keyword-arguments
2014-10-24T21:21:21Z jasom: but :string should work (so should 'cl:string apparently)
2014-10-24T21:21:38Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, let me rephrase my question.  I have a perl script (I couldn't find any other library to do what I wanted), and it prints the data I want to stdout.  How can I call that script and bind it's output to a variable in lisp?
2014-10-24T21:21:44Z Grue`: though maybe it depends on asdf version, maybe old versions dont have this
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2014-10-24T21:22:27Z JokesOnYou77: Wait, I got it!
2014-10-24T21:22:29Z Grue`: JokesOnYou77: but you already did it this morning
2014-10-24T21:22:43Z jasom: JokesOnYou77: (uiop:run-program (list "echo" "hello world") :output :string) returns a string for me
2014-10-24T21:22:57Z JokesOnYou77: :ouput :string worked I had a typo.  Wow, thank you
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2014-10-24T21:37:16Z beppu: jasom: Thanks for the link.  H4ns: didn't know about maplist, but it's very useful.  thanks again.
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2014-10-24T22:19:32Z PuercoPop: how do I access the symbol that was looked up in the undefined-function condition?
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2014-10-24T22:25:25Z PuercoPop: found it, cell-error-name
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2014-10-24T22:33:47Z JokesOnYou77: Does the order in which I define my functions/structs matter?  It looks like it does, but I thought the compiler was smart enough to go back...
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2014-10-24T22:37:28Z Fare: does common-lisp.net not offer gitweb for users projects anymore?
2014-10-24T22:37:48Z Fare: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb/?p=users/fare/workout-timer.git doesn't work anymore
2014-10-24T22:37:52Z Fare: or has the URL changed?
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2014-10-24T22:42:12Z k-stz: JokesOnYou77 its fine, its just a style warning, regarding defining in order
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2014-10-24T22:47:17Z JokesOnYou77: k-stz, I didn't get a compile warning, or I may have but that's not the problem.  I have a struct defined below a function that uses one of that struct's accessor functions and I got an error that that accessor wasn't defined at compile time and the whole thing crapped out
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2014-10-24T23:00:56Z rak[1]: anything like the Python's Fabric framework for Common Lisp?
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2014-10-24T23:02:08Z Xach: What does that do?
2014-10-24T23:02:12Z jasom: rak[1]: not really; using something like uiop:run-program to launch an ssh client is the only option I'm aware of currently
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2014-10-24T23:02:33Z jasom: Xach: execute commands on one or more remote hosts using ssh
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2014-10-24T23:02:43Z rak[1]: Xach, mostly a framework ... yeah what jasom said
2014-10-24T23:03:00Z JokesOnYou77: Is there an accepted or, bestpractice way to get the directory a file is being run in?
2014-10-24T23:03:02Z rak[1]:  ``parallell`` execution of running remote commands on multiple hosts
2014-10-24T23:03:17Z rak[1]: trying it out and it seems helpful. it is a simple framework to use.
2014-10-24T23:03:24Z jasom: oh, inferior-shell seems to have something for running ssh commands
2014-10-24T23:03:46Z rak[1]: thinking it would be nice if i could do the programming in lisp. i am sure i could write the framework myself, just wondering if there is anything out there that is mature like Fabric
2014-10-24T23:04:13Z JokesOnYou77: rak[1], If you're feeling really adventurous you might be able to hack somthing together using huthintoot or something else that will give you port access and then mirror a stream out to multiple hosts :P
2014-10-24T23:04:32Z rak[1]: JokesOnYou77: not a bad idea
2014-10-24T23:04:37Z jasom: rak[1]: no, nothing like that; however, you could probably hack something up quickly with something like inferior-shell and lparallel
2014-10-24T23:04:53Z rak[1]: i'd likely take the short way around and just use ext:run-program to call the shells ssh
2014-10-24T23:04:59Z JokesOnYou77: Like i said though, I expect that it would be a real project
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2014-10-24T23:05:51Z JokesOnYou77: Maybe you could have the remote servers listen to a redis channel and send commands that way?  I don't actually know if that's possible but I know cl-redis is a thing
2014-10-24T23:05:54Z Fare: jasom: inferior-shell can run ssh for you
2014-10-24T23:06:09Z jasom: Fare: yeah, I saw that after my first answer
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2014-10-24T23:06:22Z Fare: but it's synchronous (unless you use it in threads)
2014-10-24T23:06:34Z jasom: Fare: which is why I suggested inferior-shell and lparallel
2014-10-24T23:06:53Z Fare: ext:run-program is E-V-I-L
2014-10-24T23:06:58Z JokesOnYou77: Wait, really?  You can just pull up a subshell of some other interpreter as a process in a running lisp?
2014-10-24T23:07:14Z rak[1]: JokesOnYou77: of course!!!
2014-10-24T23:07:22Z rak[1]: i run screen inside clisp sometimes...
2014-10-24T23:07:31Z Fare: you couldn't do that portably two years ago
2014-10-24T23:07:34Z jasom: rak[1]: I do recommend uiop:run-program over ext:run-program
2014-10-24T23:07:39Z JokesOnYou77: My mind is shattering.
2014-10-24T23:07:49Z rak[1]: jasom: i will look in to the uiop package for the future
2014-10-24T23:07:57Z rak[1]: being a clisp user, ext works fine for me though
2014-10-24T23:08:05Z rak[1]: any particular reasons to use uiop?
2014-10-24T23:08:10Z rak[1]: besides its quick to type?
2014-10-24T23:08:11Z rak[1]: :P
2014-10-24T23:08:16Z jasom: rak[1]: portability
2014-10-24T23:08:22Z rak[1]: jasom: ah right on
2014-10-24T23:08:24Z rak[1]: i will look it up
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2014-10-24T23:08:44Z rak[1]: JokesOnYou77: with respect to "Is there an accepted or, bestpractice way to get the directory a file is being run in?"
2014-10-24T23:08:49Z jasom: rak[1]: also inferior shell does have ssh launching built-in, plus a simple sexp based shell command language
2014-10-24T23:09:11Z JokesOnYou77: Plus uiop awesome, they showed it to me earlier and I'm using it for what Im working on as we speak :P
2014-10-24T23:09:18Z JokesOnYou77: *is awesome
2014-10-24T23:09:25Z rak[1]: a file being run? what kind of file, if you are running say a bash script, you can use 'echo $(dirname $0)'
2014-10-24T23:09:37Z jasom: JokesOnYou77: you can blame Fare for the existence of uiop, btw
2014-10-24T23:10:10Z JokesOnYou77: Fare, Thank you! lol
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2014-10-24T23:11:19Z rak[1]: what else is in uiop ?
2014-10-24T23:12:00Z jasom: rak[1]: “I’m not saying breast-feeding is not beneficial,” Colen told the media at the time of the study’s release. “But if we really want to improve maternal and child health in this country, let’s also focus on things that can really do that in the long term — like subsidized day care, better maternity-leave policies and more employment opportunities for low-income mothers that pay a living wage, for example.”
2014-10-24T23:12:00Z JokesOnYou77: rak[1], I meant a .lisp.  I'm using uiop to run an external script but I would like what I write to be more-or-less portable but uiop only seems to be able to call the script with an absolute path.  I need a way to tell it to look in the current directory it's being called from
2014-10-24T23:12:06Z jasom: alksdjfodmasfm
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2014-10-24T23:12:24Z jasom: rak[1]: http://quickdocs.org/uiop/
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2014-10-24T23:12:36Z jasom loves how chrome doesn't update the primary selection until the *second* time you select a url
2014-10-24T23:13:00Z rak[1]: hehe
2014-10-24T23:13:01Z jasom: it took me months of inadvertant pastes to figure out how that was happening
2014-10-24T23:13:11Z rak[1] uses firefox
2014-10-24T23:13:17Z rak[1]: + pentadactyl for the win!
2014-10-24T23:13:31Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: doing something relative to *load-truename* might help in that case.
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2014-10-24T23:19:12Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, (subseq *load-truename* 0 (- (length *load-truename*) (length *load-pathname*)))
2014-10-24T23:19:13Z JokesOnYou77: ?
2014-10-24T23:19:43Z JokesOnYou77: For the current dir
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2014-10-24T23:30:58Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: no.
2014-10-24T23:31:17Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: if you want to get a file named "foo.txt" relative to *load-truename*, use (merge-pathnames "foo.txt" *load-truename*)
2014-10-24T23:32:32Z jasom: Xach: I think JokesOnYou77's point is that it's insufficient if *load-pathname* contains a directory component
2014-10-24T23:33:05Z Xach: jasom: Insufficient for what?
2014-10-24T23:33:23Z jasom: to get the default pathname when it was loaded
2014-10-24T23:33:59Z Xach: Right. But the problem isn't necessarily "get the directory pathname", it's "get a path to a file in that directory"
2014-10-24T23:34:02Z jasom: oh, I just saw the more complete description of the file, so yeah
2014-10-24T23:34:14Z jasom: s/file/problem
2014-10-24T23:34:26Z JokesOnYou77: Actually, my point was that I don't know how to properly use merge-pathnames :P
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2014-10-24T23:35:16Z Fare: merge-pathnames is very unportable
2014-10-24T23:35:31Z Fare: uiop:merge-pathnames* or uiop:subpathname or uiop:subpathname* are much better
2014-10-24T23:35:48Z jasom: uiop:merge-pathnames* is your friend
2014-10-24T23:36:23Z Fare: in this case, I recommend (uiop:subpathname (uiop:current-lisp-file-pathname) "foo.txt")
2014-10-24T23:37:11Z Fare: or (asdf:system-relative-pathname :foo "foo.txt")
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2014-10-24T23:38:36Z Fare: http://quickdocs.org/uiop/api fails to document any but the first package in uiop. Sucks.
2014-10-24T23:38:36Z jasom: oh, I had forgotten about system-relative-pathname
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2014-10-24T23:39:39Z Fare: if the file is used at compile-time, it's better to declare it as a component, and use its component-pathname, so that ASDF knows about the dependency
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2014-10-24T23:40:06Z Fare: if it's used at runtime, system-relative-pathname isn't so great, but the least bad thing we have so far.
2014-10-24T23:40:39Z Fare: not so great, because it doesn't work unless you distribute source together with your binary
2014-10-24T23:40:59Z Fare: not that lisp is much worse than other languages this way
2014-10-24T23:41:10Z Fare: at least java has a notion of "resources"
2014-10-24T23:42:33Z JokesOnYou77: And we don't like merge pathnames because it's not portable?  And I'm not sure I understnad how to use the uiop example?
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2014-10-24T23:47:20Z jasom: JokesOnYou77: (uiop:current-lisp-file-pathname) will return the pathname for the lisp file; subpathname will resolve the second argument relative to the directory of the first
2014-10-24T23:48:07Z jasom: so that example will give you the pathname for a file named "foo.txt" in the same director as the lisp file it appears in.
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2014-10-24T23:49:22Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, I think I get it.  I am really learning a lot today
2014-10-24T23:51:36Z jasom: Fare: I got really confused by the naming of subpathp; yes it returns nil if maybe-subpath isn't in base-pathname, but it also returns a useful value in the non-nil case.
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2014-10-24T23:56:38Z k-stz: JokesOnYou77, you and me both, heh
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