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2014-10-23T00:03:05Z work_op: i know u lispers dont care, but freenode staff is getting shit on in #freenode and its pretty funny
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2014-10-23T00:06:31Z cutgovspend: shouldnt a lisp framework for writing web apps be easier to use than any other? due to superior abstraction?
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2014-10-23T00:10:57Z zRecursive: IIRC, there is NO such a framework.
2014-10-23T00:11:42Z cutgovspend: I mean there are some interesting ones
2014-10-23T00:12:00Z cutgovspend: I find happstack in haskell fascinating because it covers web page and database
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2014-10-23T00:12:07Z cutgovspend: like common lisp core server and picolisp
2014-10-23T00:12:08Z zRecursive: You can personally play hunchentoot, just for playing NOT for a big heavy traffic site
2014-10-23T00:12:22Z cutgovspend: why not busy site?
2014-10-23T00:12:31Z cutgovspend: I thought it has good concurrency?
2014-10-23T00:12:40Z zRecursive: No
2014-10-23T00:12:53Z cutgovspend: java seems to be moving to happstack like setup with cassandra and glassfish
2014-10-23T00:13:15Z zRecursive: It uses local thread which can NOT be "good concurrency"
2014-10-23T00:14:13Z cutgovspend: I thought bordew threads mappsed onto os threads?
2014-10-23T00:14:58Z zRecursive: i am not sure
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2014-10-23T00:19:51Z nyef: There's little point to having more OS threads than you have CPU cores anyway.
2014-10-23T00:19:53Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-10-23T00:19:58Z Xach has set mode +b *!*g@*.socal.res.rr.com
2014-10-23T00:20:02Z cutgovspend [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (gavino)
2014-10-23T00:20:06Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-10-23T00:20:27Z nyef: Thank you, Xach.
2014-10-23T00:20:39Z whartung: happstack?
2014-10-23T00:20:41Z Xach: that rascal
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2014-10-23T00:22:33Z whartung: oh, is he just a troll?
2014-10-23T00:22:40Z Xach: "just"!
2014-10-23T00:22:46Z Xach: he is an exceptional troll
2014-10-23T00:22:47Z whartung: merely? simply?
2014-10-23T00:23:04Z Xach: he is just a troll like the grand canyon is just a ditch
2014-10-23T00:23:15Z whartung: I see
2014-10-23T00:23:42Z whartung: his point about glassfish was curious to me, but I didn't know the context
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2014-10-23T00:28:02Z Xach: the M.O. is writing enough technical stuff to get kindhearted people engaged, but then spinning off into nonsense.
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2014-10-23T00:28:12Z Xach: that has happened for many many years
2014-10-23T00:28:13Z whartung: ah ok
2014-10-23T00:28:28Z whartung: is it conscious, or a disorder?
2014-10-23T00:28:42Z Xach: I think there's a mix of malice and malady
2014-10-23T00:28:48Z whartung: ok
2014-10-23T00:28:49Z whartung: just curious
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2014-10-23T00:30:10Z Xach: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/f1X4xmplfA4/H5VV1NeIHb4J is a collection of his threads from 2006 (!)
2014-10-23T00:30:27Z Xach: he has done more or less the same thing nearly nonstop since then in one form or another
2014-10-23T00:30:50Z zRecursive: cv
2014-10-23T00:30:59Z whartung: I remember seeing those
2014-10-23T00:31:12Z whartung: those "kind" haunt most any alterantive language group
2014-10-23T00:31:22Z whartung: og
2014-10-23T00:31:28Z whartung: omg aolserver...
2014-10-23T00:31:29Z whartung:  /shiver
2014-10-23T00:32:31Z whartung: oh it's the same guy!
2014-10-23T00:32:36Z whartung: he haunts the Forth forums too
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2014-10-23T01:11:45Z zRecursive: c
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2014-10-23T01:21:33Z Ryan_Burnside: Hi Xach, I've read your work a few times at my job while on lunch break. Thanks for all the great information.
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2014-10-23T01:23:53Z Xach: No problem. Glad it's helpful.
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2014-10-23T01:27:53Z Ryan_Burnside: Xach, do you have a better quality recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lch0FVCEf0
2014-10-23T01:28:40Z Xach: Sorry, I don't.
2014-10-23T01:29:05Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/eclm2011 has the script
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2014-10-23T02:13:30Z loke: Damn it!
2014-10-23T02:13:34Z loke: I missed it action
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2014-10-23T05:06:08Z work_op: maybe this is dumb, but in scheme i see a lot of helper functions being defined locally within the body of the main function, is there a compelling reason for or against it?
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2014-10-23T05:09:01Z Bike: for: clean namespace. against: can't debug calling those functions individually
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2014-10-23T05:14:48Z Zhivago: Also, lexical closure.
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2014-10-23T05:23:54Z pjb: work_op: you can do the same using flet or labels.
2014-10-23T05:24:23Z work_op: yeah thatd be easy enough
2014-10-23T05:25:07Z pjb: I don't like the scheme syntax here, since the scope where the definition are visible is not clearly marked by a corresponding set of parentheses like in CL.
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2014-10-23T05:27:47Z Zhivago: Which syntax? letrec?
2014-10-23T05:27:50Z zRecursive: pjb: then CL will have more "()" ?
2014-10-23T05:27:54Z Zhivago: I guess you mean define?
2014-10-23T05:30:18Z zRecursive: In fact, i donot like Scheme as there is few real app(s) developed using Scheme.
2014-10-23T05:30:34Z work_op: ur right, DrRacket isnt real
2014-10-23T05:30:39Z work_op: gosh cmon
2014-10-23T05:31:25Z zRecursive: I mean application except developing tool
2014-10-23T05:32:05Z zRecursive: such as G2, Maxima and even stumpwm in CL.
2014-10-23T05:33:26Z Zhivago: I wonder how you measure 'few'. :)
2014-10-23T05:33:31Z work_op: ^
2014-10-23T05:34:05Z work_op: if you quantify scheme's power by the number of large, monolithic applications developed in it, you have missed the whole point of scheme
2014-10-23T05:34:35Z Zhivago: The same criticism can be made against CL easily enough.
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2014-10-23T05:34:47Z pjb: Zhivago: (begin {defines} {expressions}) ; <-- this syntax.
2014-10-23T05:35:39Z Bike: does it work with a begin? i thought it was special with lambda or something.
2014-10-23T05:35:51Z pjb: lambda and begin IIRC.
2014-10-23T05:36:28Z Zhivago: Yeah, so 'define'.
2014-10-23T05:36:45Z Zhivago: Just use letrec.
2014-10-23T05:36:47Z pjb: I remember wrong, indeed, only lambda accept defines.
2014-10-23T05:37:03Z pjb: Yes, letrec is like labels, acceptable.
2014-10-23T05:38:18Z Zhivago: Personally, I don't think it's any worse than declare in CL.
2014-10-23T05:38:26Z pjb: Ah no, begin is ok.   lambda, begin and let take defines.  It's documented in 5.2.2.
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2014-10-23T05:40:03Z zRecursive: work_op: What's the whole point of Scheme ? Do you mean it is a better teaching language ?
2014-10-23T05:41:00Z Zhivago: Well, the point of scheme was to drag lisp, kicking and screaming, into the era of lexical scoping and continuations.
2014-10-23T05:41:23Z Zhivago: Without scheme, CL would probably resemble elisp.
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2014-10-23T05:42:36Z zRecursive: Zhivago: Continuations is indeed Scheme special
2014-10-23T05:42:36Z pillton: Serious? There was that much resistance to lexical scoping?
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2014-10-23T05:43:00Z Zhivago: Don't forget lexical scoping.
2014-10-23T05:43:27Z Bike: pillton: there are some pretty silly efficiency arguments, yeah.
2014-10-23T05:43:36Z zRecursive: yeah, but do we really need continuations ?
2014-10-23T05:43:45Z mal_: pillton: it was worse. there was an insane semantic difference between compiled and interpreted code
2014-10-23T05:43:54Z Zhivago: You need something that does what continuations do in certain circumstances.
2014-10-23T05:44:06Z Zhivago: All systems use continuations -- it's just a question of how free and first class they are.
2014-10-23T05:44:28Z Zhivago: The move is toward delimited continuations for first class systems.
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2014-10-23T05:45:57Z loke: Bike: what were those arguments?
2014-10-23T05:46:09Z loke: Bike: after all, lexical scoping is considered more efficient, yes?
2014-10-23T05:46:27Z chitofan: hi everybody, if i understand correctly, we use funcall when we want to call a function stored in a variable?
2014-10-23T05:46:44Z Bike: less efficient to compile, or requires more space, or something, it was all silly and i don't recall it
2014-10-23T05:46:52Z chitofan: (setq zxc #'+) (funcall zxc 1 2 3)
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2014-10-23T05:47:00Z chitofan: is there a more complicated example of why we use funcall?
2014-10-23T05:47:02Z Zhivago: chitofan: Consider (funcall #'+ 1 2) -- variables are not important.
2014-10-23T05:47:14Z Zhivago: Now consider (funcall (lambda () 1))
2014-10-23T05:47:20Z Bike: you might just want to read the original scheme paper(s), they're good
2014-10-23T05:47:36Z Zhivago: funcall is used to call functions with late binding, effectively -- where you do not know which function to call at compile-time.
2014-10-23T05:47:47Z Bike: i forget how much of the then-current situation they go into, but orbit (or rabbit? i forget) was written in maclisp, and suchlike
2014-10-23T05:47:48Z loke: chitofan: (let* ((x 0) (y #'(lambda () (incf x))) (list (funcall y) (funcall y))
2014-10-23T05:49:05Z loke: or... (funcall (if x #'min #'max) y z)
2014-10-23T05:50:51Z loke: Maclisp had lexical binding, didn't it?
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2014-10-23T05:53:24Z Bike: i think it had the semantics weirdness mal alluded to
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2014-10-23T05:54:24Z chitofan: thanks loke and zhivago :)
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2014-10-23T05:54:56Z loke: It was getting dynamic scope in interpreted code but lexical in compiled? (or the other way around?)
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2014-10-23T05:55:09Z Bike: something like that
2014-10-23T05:55:19Z loke: Ohh... Worst of both worlds!
2014-10-23T05:55:20Z Bike: loke: http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/eval.html see *function for an example of scope in maclisp being confused and confusing
2014-10-23T05:55:42Z mal_: local variables were lexical by default in compiled code and dynamic when interpreted
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2014-10-23T05:56:18Z Bike: scheme really did help unfuck things
2014-10-23T05:57:23Z mal_: ah FEXPRs and FSUBRs. I had forgotten about those. macros really were an improvement.
2014-10-23T05:57:24Z ggole: Wow, that's... wow
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2014-10-23T09:02:28Z fundamen`: Hey. Is there something like scipy for lisp?
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2014-10-23T09:10:58Z Cymew: scipy?
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2014-10-23T09:12:45Z Cymew: b
2014-10-23T09:12:54Z Cymew: oops, wrong window
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2014-10-23T09:20:45Z Grue`: I would say Maxima, but the person who asked the question has already left
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2014-10-23T10:19:53Z bjorkintosh: hmm. does anyone ever use lisp for intensive compuations?
2014-10-23T10:19:58Z bjorkintosh: as opposed to the usual suspects/
2014-10-23T10:19:59Z bjorkintosh: ?
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2014-10-23T10:20:47Z spacebat: bjorkintosh: I'm starting a job soon where they do
2014-10-23T10:21:07Z bjorkintosh: which CL do they use for that?
2014-10-23T10:21:08Z |3b| uses lisp to tell GPU to do computations
2014-10-23T10:22:14Z prxq: bjorkintosh: what do you mean with "intensive computations"? I've maxed out a couple of cores for a week or so a few times.
2014-10-23T10:22:20Z spacebat: gabor melis won that higgs competition using CL
2014-10-23T10:22:55Z prxq: spacebat: what will you be doing at your new yob?
2014-10-23T10:22:57Z bjorkintosh: prxq, was it collecting garbage? :D
2014-10-23T10:23:07Z prxq: heh, no
2014-10-23T10:23:08Z spacebat: bjorkintosh: I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say at this juncture - will have to ask about the NDA
2014-10-23T10:23:22Z bjorkintosh: spacebat, charge them 1000 bucks for the NDA.
2014-10-23T10:23:40Z bjorkintosh: if it's that important to them... they'd pay you :)
2014-10-23T10:23:54Z spacebat: prxq: sounds like its pushing data around and producing reports
2014-10-23T10:24:17Z prxq: i see.
2014-10-23T10:24:23Z spacebat: bjorkintosh: they're paying me better than my current job by a fair margin
2014-10-23T10:24:41Z prxq: bjorkintosh: it was numerical computations. Testing algorithms.
2014-10-23T10:24:46Z bjorkintosh: good good. but next NDA they may you sign, charge them for it.
2014-10-23T10:25:09Z bjorkintosh: *make, not may.
2014-10-23T10:25:13Z bjorkintosh: i must be tired.
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2014-10-23T11:00:02Z spacebat: right, at least I can say that the job is with accenture, they have a very large code base which runs on lispworks
2014-10-23T11:01:19Z mikaelj: spacebat, in which country?
2014-10-23T11:02:14Z spacebat: data from multivariate tests of users interacting with websites is stored in postgres and passed to some statistical analysis code, which I think but am not certain is in CL
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2014-10-23T11:02:27Z hlavaty: accenture + lisp = australia?
2014-10-23T11:02:30Z spacebat: mikaelj: australia
2014-10-23T11:02:34Z hlavaty: :-)
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2014-10-23T11:04:03Z spacebat: they have some pretty large data sets and that's part of the challenge
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2014-10-23T11:29:28Z prxq: specbot: cool to know that accenture has a very large common lisp codebase. I mean - yay!
2014-10-23T11:29:40Z prxq: meh, I meant spacebat
2014-10-23T11:31:20Z splittist: I'm sure specbot is pleased, too (:
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2014-10-23T11:35:03Z stassats: minion: are you pleased?
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2014-10-23T11:35:05Z minion: no
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2014-10-23T11:45:49Z Xach: Krystof: thanks for the update
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2014-10-23T12:00:55Z Krystof: thank you!
2014-10-23T12:01:14Z Xach: thanks for writing tests, too. glad to see more buggalo in sbcl.
2014-10-23T12:01:45Z Krystof: but do Buggalo buggalo buggalo Buggalo buggalo?
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2014-10-23T13:51:08Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-10-23T13:55:05Z Adlai: morning nyef
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2014-10-23T16:08:57Z fummelfommel: has anyone tried interfacing C progrems to common lisp "libraries"?
2014-10-23T16:09:21Z stassats: ecl does that
2014-10-23T16:10:15Z j_king: rather well I might add. had some good success embedding ecl
2014-10-23T16:10:20Z fummelfommel: ... why didn't i think of that..
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2014-10-23T16:13:08Z rjmacready_: there's an active fork of ecl: mkcl http://common-lisp.net/project/mkcl/
2014-10-23T16:13:31Z nyef: I've had some luck the other way around, converting a chunk of a C program to a library and interfacing to it from SBCL.
2014-10-23T16:14:06Z stassats: hopefully some time in the not so distant future sbcl could become sbcl.so
2014-10-23T16:14:29Z Ryan_Burnside: Are there concerns using C++ with CL? I've mostly only heard of calling C functions.
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2014-10-23T16:15:24Z stassats: calling C++ is hard from anything else than C++
2014-10-23T16:16:27Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: if you want to call CL from C++ with ecl, you just need to do this https://github.com/rjmacready/helix/blob/master/assimp_wrap/main.cc#L16-L19
2014-10-23T16:17:03Z Ryan_Burnside: It's quite amusing to see all the new hoops they are jumping through with templates (they are more prevalent in the new standard) to get lisp like functionality.
2014-10-23T16:17:12Z Ryan_Burnside: thanks rjmacready_
2014-10-23T16:18:35Z Ryan_Burnside: rjmacready_, I've often wanted to use ecl but wish there was an series of gradual introductions.
2014-10-23T16:19:05Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: actually, take a look at this http://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/embedding-lisp-in-cplusplus-a-recipe/, it might help you (recent link, yay); my project is working, but I find it might be too simple though
2014-10-23T16:19:32Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: yeah, there's not much introductory stuff on the internet on ecl
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2014-10-23T16:21:31Z Ryan_Burnside: Unfortunately many people just don't have the time to dig through all the defuns in a library and sort of reverse engineer what a module does.
2014-10-23T16:22:01Z Ryan_Burnside: Ideally there needs to be more small demos and presentations on you tube. Live demonstrations would be ideal.
2014-10-23T16:22:06Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: at the time I wrote that I used this http://vwood.github.io/embedded-ecl.html and this http://ecls.wikispaces.com/ and the examples inside ecl :P
2014-10-23T16:22:38Z rjmacready_: and if you're on windows I wrote this too https://github.com/fabriceleal/ecl-win-vs11-example
2014-10-23T16:23:09Z Ryan_Burnside: Linux :) And this looks like a good start.
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2014-10-23T16:25:24Z Ryan_Burnside: rjmacready_, I'll bookmark your blog
2014-10-23T16:25:28Z Ryan_Burnside: Good introduction!
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2014-10-23T16:28:02Z rjmacready_: the blog and wiki arent mine, only the github repos. good luck on your adventure ;)
2014-10-23T16:31:43Z rjmacready_: fun fact: C++ templates were made turing complete by accident
2014-10-23T16:32:12Z wasamasa: Ryan_Burnside: perhaps you'll find clasp interesting
2014-10-23T16:32:36Z wasamasa: Ryan_Burnside: a relatively new CL implementation lending lots of code from ecl that's using the power of llvm for c++ interoperation
2014-10-23T16:34:17Z Ryan_Burnside: Well, many times I just will use C++ for the libraries. I don't actually like the language all that much. Glad to see there are steps in bridging the gap between the two langauges.
2014-10-23T16:34:37Z Ryan_Burnside: If CL had support for SFML I'd never touch C++.
2014-10-23T16:34:49Z fummelfommel: more ways to sneak CL into projects ... the betetr!
2014-10-23T16:35:05Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: ah cool. if it's CL it's definitely interesting; I thought it was just-yet-another-lisp-non-CL-implemented-for-fun, didnt even look at it
2014-10-23T16:35:39Z wasamasa: Ryan_Burnside: you should /join #clasp and ask drmeister about SFML
2014-10-23T16:35:55Z wasamasa: Ryan_Burnside: IIRC the effort to expose bindings to functions is rather small with it
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2014-10-23T16:36:49Z Ryan_Burnside: wasamasa, what server?
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2014-10-23T16:37:37Z wasamasa: Ryan_Burnside: still freenode
2014-10-23T16:40:28Z Ryan_Burnside: Gotcha.
2014-10-23T16:40:56Z Ryan_Burnside: You see a lot of libraries offering multiple bindings, I want to see CL as an option!
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2014-10-23T16:46:48Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: well, unless you use cffi (http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/) you might have a hard time (or just impossible) to use the same thing across different CL implementations :\
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2014-10-23T16:47:53Z rjmacready_: for instance: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/tree/master/backend
2014-10-23T16:47:55Z axion: greetings all. does anyone know how to connect to multiple remote databases with cl-mysql? it seems to (query) etc commands all refer to some global connection state
2014-10-23T16:51:50Z rjmacready_: if cl-mysql is cl-sql based (which i think it is), you have this macro: http://clsql.b9.com/manual/with-database.html
2014-10-23T16:52:13Z rjmacready_: axion: ^
2014-10-23T16:53:51Z rjmacready_: axion: well, confirmed, cl-mysql is cl-sql based, you can use cl-sql documentation to guide you
2014-10-23T16:54:13Z axion: hmm that symbol is not exported
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2014-10-23T16:55:27Z rjmacready_: axion: hmm, you might need to import clsql
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2014-10-23T16:57:47Z rjmacready_: axion: well, i have stuff that uses clsql-sqlite3, but then i make (clsql:with-database ....)
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2014-10-23T17:09:26Z shka: hello all
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2014-10-23T17:10:33Z shka: what is the best option for plotting graphs from lisp?
2014-10-23T17:11:00Z shka: what i have is a simple one level nested list
2014-10-23T17:11:00Z wglb: Xach's vecto.
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2014-10-23T17:11:17Z shka: wglb: oh, that's good indeed
2014-10-23T17:11:26Z shka: but i was inprecise
2014-10-23T17:11:43Z shka: i ment plots like in gnuplot :)
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2014-10-23T17:14:43Z wglb: shka: You mean for printing to paper as opposed to on-screen?
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2014-10-23T17:15:32Z shka: wglb: no, i ment a 2D matematical plots
2014-10-23T17:15:46Z shka: i guess i could get something done with vecto
2014-10-23T17:15:59Z Ryan_Burnside: shka one sec...
2014-10-23T17:16:18Z shka: Ryan_Burnside: :-)
2014-10-23T17:18:17Z Grue`: shka: http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20and%20gnuplot
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2014-10-23T17:20:07Z rjmacready_: shka: well, i think you could simply generate .dot and .gml files and delegate drawing to a 3rd party application
2014-10-23T17:20:12Z Ryan_Burnside: http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4182
2014-10-23T17:20:24Z Ryan_Burnside: Not sure if you simply need a geometry viewer or not.
2014-10-23T17:20:29Z shka: rjmacready_: i was considering
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2014-10-23T17:20:39Z Ryan_Burnside: Never finished an export function for that...
2014-10-23T17:21:06Z Grue`: shka: in particular http://cliki.net/cgn looks like what you want
2014-10-23T17:21:34Z splittist: shka: also clnuplot and vgplot, for gnuplot interface. cl-plplot for PLplot....
2014-10-23T17:21:34Z Ryan_Burnside: nvm looks like you need a raster plotter
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2014-10-23T17:23:25Z shka: Grue`: oh, thanks
2014-10-23T17:23:31Z shka: i will try it :D
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2014-10-23T17:23:43Z shka: splittist: yes, i checked cliki
2014-10-23T17:24:01Z shka: but i was not sure which one should i try first
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2014-10-23T17:33:11Z splittist: shka: quickdocs is also a good resource for leads, but not all projects have scrapable docs.
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2014-10-23T17:39:02Z nyef: ... or even docs.
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2014-10-23T17:42:30Z wasamasa: let's scrape docs from docstrings
2014-10-23T17:42:34Z rjmacready_: source code oughta be the only docs one ever needs!
2014-10-23T17:42:49Z j_king: yuck.
2014-10-23T17:42:53Z rjmacready_: wasamasa: i pretty cool project!
2014-10-23T17:43:08Z rjmacready_: in my defense, i was only kidding :)
2014-10-23T17:43:08Z wasamasa: rjmacready_: I'm still considering to do such a thing, but for emacs
2014-10-23T17:43:30Z wasamasa: rjmacready_: because it would be very useful to be able to compare the lisp-level differences between versions
2014-10-23T17:43:37Z nyef: Too bad scraping docstrings or doing a javadoc style comment setup is so woefully insufficient.
2014-10-23T17:43:59Z rjmacready_: wasamasa: do it!
2014-10-23T17:44:03Z wasamasa: rjmacready_: or figuring out what the usage of a certain function is
2014-10-23T17:44:13Z wasamasa: rjmacready_: or what packages are popular in emacs configurations
2014-10-23T17:44:15Z j_king: nyef: agreed. :)
2014-10-23T17:44:55Z wasamasa: rjmacready_: I think I'll rather parse package archives before that, more benefits for less work
2014-10-23T17:45:00Z Grue`: argh, there's definitely some bug in postmodern that was introduced at some point that prevents me from using a column named "from"
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2014-10-23T17:55:56Z drewc: Grue`: :RAW
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2014-10-23T17:56:39Z Grue`: it works in my locally installed version, but not in quicklisp
2014-10-23T17:57:20Z Grue`: also it possibly only affects insert-dao, but I'm not sure yet
2014-10-23T17:57:34Z drewc: (s-sql:sql-compile '(:select (:raw "from") :from foo)) => "(SELECT from FROM foo)" .... installed from quicklisp, but likely not the newest one.
2014-10-23T17:58:36Z rjmacready_: hmm, shouldn't column names be escaped (`...` for mysql, [...] for mssql, ...)
2014-10-23T17:58:40Z Grue`: it's fine with raw as well, it uses quotes around "from" but it's valid sql
2014-10-23T17:59:33Z Grue`: the problem happens when I do (make-dao 'conjugation :seq 2013800 :from 2013800) and get "INSERT INTO conjugation (via, _from_, seq) VALUES (NULL, 2013800, 2013800)"
2014-10-23T17:59:41Z drewc: as for DAO's, avoiding them at all is a good idea! :)
2014-10-23T17:59:43Z Grue`: where the hell did the underscores come from?
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2014-10-23T18:01:42Z _death: maybe because it's an sql keyword
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2014-10-23T18:03:19Z nyef: I don't trust DAOs, but I also acknowledge that I'm at the point with my own database usage where I'm pretty much building my own DAO anyway.
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2014-10-23T18:04:00Z rjmacready_: Grue`: here https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/s-sql/s-sql.lisp#L121-L159
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2014-10-23T18:05:20Z rjmacready_: Grue`: try to set *escape-sql-names-p* to nil
2014-10-23T18:05:43Z drewc: (apply #'make-instance 'conjunction :allow-other-keys t (postmodern:query (:select '* :from 'conjunction :where (:= 'id id)) :plist))) <--- my version of DAOs ... just standard-objects, not metaclass'ed at all.
2014-10-23T18:05:45Z Grue`: clearly this isn't used consistently between creating table based on DAO and actually accessing it
2014-10-23T18:06:19Z _death: looks like a double-escaping problem
2014-10-23T18:07:27Z drewc: nyef: DAOs, or using objects to hold what is in the database for usage?
2014-10-23T18:07:29Z nyef: I really, really dislike the :plist format from the database.
2014-10-23T18:08:04Z nyef: drewc: It's not much of a jump from one to the other.
2014-10-23T18:09:22Z drewc: nyef: Tell that to the fact that I spent 6 months moving my app away from DAOs ... they are quite different and I still have a bunch (the old stuff is still running).
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2014-10-23T18:10:55Z drewc: OR: I may not have a clue, as I wrote DAOs for postmodern before there was any, made the :plist format on my own, and really, is there a 'fourth system"? Because the is what is affecting my code now :)
2014-10-23T18:11:14Z drewc: s/the is/that is/
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2014-10-23T18:12:59Z rjmacready_: is there some lispy lib to save plain CLOS instances into files, or file-indexed s-expressions?
2014-10-23T18:15:20Z drewc: rjmacready_: yes/no/maybe
2014-10-23T18:16:19Z Grue`: so there's definitely double escaping going on: in the new version, first (slot-sql-name s) is called which returns "\"from\"", and then in field-sql-name a symbol is created with symbol-string "\"from\"", and then this symbol is transformed into _from_ by S-SQL
2014-10-23T18:16:24Z drewc: OR: what you are talking about is trivial or impossible, so it really depends on your needs :)
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2014-10-23T18:17:03Z rjmacready_: drewc: ah never mind :)
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2014-10-23T18:17:52Z Grue`: meh, postmodern isn't even actively developed right now, guess I'll have to monkey patch this shit
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2014-10-23T18:19:44Z drewc: rjmacready_: https://github.com/drewc/planks <--- there is one version of my doing almost exactly that, which is in between trivial and impossible. but, there is also a metaclass for persistent objects because otherwise it is either trivial or impossible
2014-10-23T18:20:04Z dlowe: I actually did that manually
2014-10-23T18:20:17Z dlowe: for each object, I defined a serialize and unserialize method.
2014-10-23T18:20:25Z dlowe: which returned or consumed a list
2014-10-23T18:20:32Z dlowe: it's... not much fun.
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2014-10-23T18:22:26Z drewc: dlowe: (progn (defclass foo () ((bar :accessor bar))) (let ((foo (make-instance 'foo))) (setf (bar foo) foo) (and-now-persist foo))) <--- trivial or impossible?
2014-10-23T18:22:27Z dlowe: unserialization was (defmethod unserialize ((class (eql 'output-class)) list) ...), then (unserialize (first list) (rest list))
2014-10-23T18:23:10Z nyef: Isn't the usual term "deserialization"?
2014-10-23T18:23:25Z dlowe: cl-store handles that, I'm pretty sure, but not in a human-readable format
2014-10-23T18:23:34Z dlowe: I've seen both :p
2014-10-23T18:24:54Z dlowe: googlefight says deserialize has twice the results
2014-10-23T18:26:27Z drewc: me like cereal-ization .... mmmm brunch time
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2014-10-23T18:31:08Z drewc: (let* ((foo (make-instance 'foo)) (bar (progn (serialize foo) (deserialize foo))) (eq foo bar) => NIL? T? trivial or impossible?
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2014-10-23T18:32:24Z drewc is drinking his first cup-o-joe, so is focusing on that conflict for his own fun .... feel free to ignore him.
2014-10-23T18:32:25Z dlowe: you mean (deserialize (serialize foo))
2014-10-23T18:32:29Z dlowe: ?
2014-10-23T18:33:09Z dlowe: I would expect deserialize to return a clone of foo, not foo
2014-10-23T18:33:15Z drewc: that depends .... what does serialize return? I have not seen the specs :)
2014-10-23T18:33:29Z dlowe: it doesn't matter, as long as deserialize takes it
2014-10-23T18:33:40Z drewc: so, not objects then? OR: Trivial! :)
2014-10-23T18:34:02Z dlowe: serialize could return its argument, but that wouldn't be too useful
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2014-10-23T18:35:35Z drewc: (defmethod rs::serialize ((object persistent-standard-object) stream) (rs::serialize (persistent-standard-object-slot-btree object) stream)) <--- from PLANKS.
2014-10-23T18:36:15Z dlowe: heh. planks being a subset of rucksack?
2014-10-23T18:36:19Z drewc: note that there is not a deserialize that takes the persistent standard object btree an turns it into a object
2014-10-23T18:36:31Z drewc: nope, just uses it serialization.
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2014-10-23T18:36:50Z drewc: or did, in 2009 or so when I used it.
2014-10-23T18:36:52Z dlowe: contains a subset, then
2014-10-23T18:37:07Z dlowe: I used rucksack for a project and I liked using it
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2014-10-23T18:37:10Z drewc: uses it as a library perhaps?
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2014-10-23T18:37:33Z dlowe: But it didn't handle schema changes as well as it was designed to, and I never figured out why
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2014-10-23T18:38:18Z drewc: regardless, (defmethod rs::deserialize-contents ((marker (eql +persistent-standard-object-marker+)) stream) ...) is the only method for deserializing an object ..
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2014-10-23T18:39:40Z dlowe: IIRC, it did use a metaclass, though
2014-10-23T18:40:05Z drewc: because, heh, it is completely non destructive, but where that marker leads to depends on if the object was modified.
2014-10-23T18:41:45Z drewc: I even wrote a GC that gets rid of the old versions.... but the issue is of course locks/transactions/mutexs etc.
2014-10-23T18:44:23Z drewc: I remember trying rucksack out like .... 7 or 8 years ago, and decided I did not like it. But, serialization is serialization .. so I used rucksack for PLANKS when I wrote it in '09 or so.
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2014-10-23T18:46:26Z drewc: it could have been anything, or could have written it myself really .... and nowadays likely would.
2014-10-23T18:48:43Z dlowe: I suspect I'll just use cl-store when the time comes. Xach says it's okay.
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2014-10-23T18:49:45Z Xach: it just works for my light workloads so far
2014-10-23T18:50:23Z dlowe: Right now I like having human-readable files.
2014-10-23T18:50:49Z dlowe: though I guess I could make an xml backend for cl-store :D
2014-10-23T18:50:51Z drewc: well, if Xach says it's OK, and dlowe will likely use it as well , I might have to be on that bandwagon for the next version of PLANKS.
2014-10-23T18:51:03Z drewc: xml is human readable?
2014-10-23T18:51:18Z dlowe: It can be
2014-10-23T18:52:41Z drewc really does not like the unneeded </this-is-the-end> tag when it has to be the last part of <this-is-the-end> ... beautiful friend, the end. 
2014-10-23T18:52:48Z oGMo: sometimes it can even be machine-readable
2014-10-23T18:53:21Z dlowe: is it really worse than ) ; this-is-the-end
2014-10-23T18:53:37Z drewc likes JSON these days, and makes all his servers and all his clients speak them.
2014-10-23T18:54:37Z dlowe: yeah, JSON is definitely better for simpler stuff.
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2014-10-23T18:55:23Z drewc: why do you need the comment? (this (is (the (end (my-only-friend "The end"))))) ;; no comment needed, and certainly not ;; /this
2014-10-23T18:55:37Z dlowe: on a short blip, yeah
2014-10-23T18:56:08Z dlowe: if that last ) is 500,000 lines down, it's useful to have
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2014-10-23T18:57:27Z drewc: so you'd prefer having to get the close things in the right order over simply paren matching? (paredit anyone?) and is 500,000 lines really human readable regardless of the format?
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2014-10-23T18:58:16Z nyef: 500,000 LINES? Even just 500,000 WORDS is stupidly long.
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2014-10-23T18:58:34Z dlowe: Some people don't get hyperbole. I can't help them.
2014-10-23T18:58:52Z dlowe: This isn't about what I'd prefer.
2014-10-23T18:59:21Z drewc: Ah, yes, requirements are required.
2014-10-23T18:59:39Z dlowe: I'm declaring false the assertion that the end tag has no use.
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2014-10-23T19:00:24Z drewc: Some people don't get hyperbole. I can't help them.
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2014-10-23T19:01:03Z dlowe: hyperbole isn't supposed to be subtle and reasonable
2014-10-23T19:01:23Z nyef: ... or f(x) = 1/x
2014-10-23T19:01:50Z dlowe: squirrel?
2014-10-23T19:02:58Z drewc: really, subtlety has no effect? and does not emphasize the exaggeration? Interesting ... I will have to learn to be subtle! :)
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2014-10-23T19:04:43Z drewc decides against reasonable ... purposeful, yes. Purpose over reason.
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2014-10-23T19:07:37Z dlowe: I would really like this conversation to end. You can even have the last word.
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2014-10-23T19:08:00Z dlowe: Let's just talk about something else :p
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2014-10-23T19:12:37Z Ryan_Burnside: Anyone working on anything interesting in CL? Just curious what people are doing with the language.
2014-10-23T19:13:01Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: what are your interests? :P
2014-10-23T19:13:08Z Ryan_Burnside: Many and varied. :)
2014-10-23T19:13:15Z rjmacready_: lol, good answer :)
2014-10-23T19:13:45Z Xach is working on a bridge from tumblr to twitter in his spare time
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2014-10-23T19:13:53Z shka: Ryan_Burnside: cl is surprisingly good for wide varity of tasks
2014-10-23T19:14:14Z fummelfommel: working on telescope control software ...
2014-10-23T19:14:19Z antoszka: I'm trying to sneak CL into my scripting needs for ${DAYJOB}.
2014-10-23T19:14:20Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: i've a probably cool project, automation of manipulation of 3d meshes
2014-10-23T19:14:41Z antoszka: (somewhat successfully)
2014-10-23T19:14:44Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: right now i can generate cubes and spheres and import them into blender
2014-10-23T19:14:51Z Shinmera: Ryan_Burnside: Currently building a toolkit to ease development with CommonQt
2014-10-23T19:15:17Z j_king: Ryan_Burnside: just bits and pieces. An iPython kernel... was dreaming of a rich graphical repl a while ago
2014-10-23T19:15:33Z Ryan_Burnside: You guys all have awesome stuff. I like the variance!
2014-10-23T19:15:39Z nyef: Currently using CL to do simple and stupid database reports outputting to csv or plain text, hopefully soon also one to pdf.
2014-10-23T19:15:40Z j_king: Ryan_Burnside: also wanted a CL-specialized PaaS web host.
2014-10-23T19:16:27Z Ryan_Burnside: j_king, what do you mean by rich graphical repl? Like something using Tk?
2014-10-23T19:16:29Z Shinmera: Xach: Could you elaborate on how the bridge works/what it should do exactly?
2014-10-23T19:16:46Z Grue`: I spent all day messing with Linode instead of writing Lisp
2014-10-23T19:16:53Z nyef: Mmm. A CL-specific PaaS host might be nice, but I'll be damned if I'm going to build anything that contains a 24x7 uptime requirement that could call me in the middle of dinner or the middle of the night and require me to fix it immediately.
2014-10-23T19:17:01Z j_king: Ryan_Burnside: something where I define a printer for my objects that might have a graphcal representation instead of just a textual one.
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2014-10-23T19:17:20Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: i also have a project to help me with my work (big php application, yuck), generating html charts from xdebug data (profiling and tracing data, mostly)
2014-10-23T19:17:29Z splittist: j_king: like the CLIM repl?
2014-10-23T19:18:10Z j_king: splittist: not familiar... link?
2014-10-23T19:18:15Z Xach: Shinmera: tumblr currently posts to twitter. however, for photo posts, it just posts a text link. that sucks. i'd like to make a persistent session that can talk to both tumblr and twitter and mirror posts from the former to the latter, posting image links as twitter pictures.
2014-10-23T19:18:39Z Xach: it's a very niche thing. i have a photo blog and i don't want its twitter mirror to suck so much.
2014-10-23T19:18:48Z Shinmera: Xach: Ah, I see. Fair enough
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2014-10-23T19:19:29Z Shinmera is a bit fidgety about the prospect of that project since he hasn't tested Chirp in a while.
2014-10-23T19:20:24Z Ryan_Burnside: fummelfommel, I recall mention of CL being used to control a telescope before...
2014-10-23T19:21:00Z Shinmera: Xach: I've been thinking a while about building some kind of tool that allows one to post to many sites simultaneously, but I'd have to build a lot of API wrappers first.
2014-10-23T19:21:02Z Ryan_Burnside: Maybe it was in commentary for abcl...
2014-10-23T19:21:14Z fummelfommel: Ryan_Burnside: using sbcl here ...
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2014-10-23T19:21:54Z Ryan_Burnside: antoszka, how are you sneaking CL into your day job? I also tried that once but it required the other users to have a REPL. :)
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2014-10-23T19:22:44Z antoszka: Ryan_Burnside: The co-users of my scripts are mostly open to CL and like the fun of exploration.
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2014-10-23T19:23:12Z Grue`: Ryan_Burnside: I once made a gif with SKIPPY to visualize some algorithm. that was the only time I was able to use Lisp at work
2014-10-23T19:23:26Z antoszka: Ryan_Burnside: For wider delivery I'll probably try to use abcl and jars, but haven't gone that route yet. we're a tiny team within a large company, so such things usually go.
2014-10-23T19:24:00Z devon: Any CCL users here?  I wonder how I can get rid of the mountains of source code in compiled files and executable.
2014-10-23T19:24:00Z Ryan_Burnside: Unfortunately I worked at a job that was married to TIBCO Businessworks middleware, I only had a few scripts to cut apart CSV files and count things.
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2014-10-23T19:24:18Z Ryan_Burnside: Centene corporation.
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2014-10-23T19:24:44Z Xach: devon: i use ccl, but i don't know. i bet the openmcl-devel list could help you.
2014-10-23T19:25:01Z splittist: j_king: look around for clim-listener or the Listener App in McClim. Some 10yr old screenshots http://userpages.umbc.edu/~hefner1/listener.png http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log/img/subclasses-gadget.png
2014-10-23T19:25:01Z devon: thx
2014-10-23T19:25:31Z j_king: splittist: that's pretty cool
2014-10-23T19:26:02Z rjmacready_: splittist: i love lisp machine screenshots :)
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2014-10-23T19:26:29Z Ryan_Burnside: is that Clim like the old GUI toolkit?
2014-10-23T19:26:39Z j_king: splittist: something like that would be nice. i tend to think of algorithms and datastructures visually.
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2014-10-23T19:32:01Z j_king: splittist: I was tempted to look into how up-to-date the CCL cocoa bindings were. i'd like a meatier CL project at some point.
2014-10-23T19:32:22Z splittist: rjmacready_: call me when Gnu Emacs catches up to Zmacs "Tags Multiple Query Replace From Buffer" (:
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2014-10-23T19:33:34Z splittist plays an old codger on teh interwebs
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2014-10-23T19:34:10Z rjmacready_: splittist: googling that yielded this http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/efaq/Replacing-text-across-multiple-files.html :P
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2014-10-23T19:38:11Z splittist: rjmacready_: the great thing about the Zmacs command is you can specify multiple search and replacements to do at once, so you can, in one go, replace  FOO with BAR, BAR with BAZ and BAZ with FOO (note the circularity). Anyway, it's interesting what doesn't seem to have been important to Gnu Emacs users that was considered important by Zmacs users.
2014-10-23T19:39:25Z rjmacready_: splittist: ah, i see.
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2014-10-23T19:42:35Z wasamasa: well, gnu emacs doesn't even strive for becoming the bestest editor out there
2014-10-23T19:42:39Z wasamasa: so it's not that surprising
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2014-10-23T19:45:30Z Ryan_Burnside: Which is the one that actually uses CL as the editor modification language?
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2014-10-23T19:46:17Z j_king: Hemlock?
2014-10-23T19:47:42Z Ryan_Burnside: Ah yes ok.
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2014-10-23T19:52:46Z Ryan_Burnside: Not sure if anyone has noticed but the book "On Lisp" seems to have quite a price tag lately.
2014-10-23T19:52:52Z anonx_: hello. does anyone know if there are java api
2014-10-23T19:52:53Z jasom: hemlock and climacs
2014-10-23T19:53:19Z jasom: Ryan_Burnside: it's also available online for free
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2014-10-23T19:53:59Z jasom: anonx_: yes there are java api
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2014-10-23T19:55:40Z anonx_: let me rephrase my question. what do I do to make my lisp code work with java or spit out a java api that java programmers can use
2014-10-23T19:56:01Z jasom: anonx_: the main choice there is ABCL
2014-10-23T19:56:21Z jasom: http://abcl.org/
2014-10-23T19:56:42Z anonx_: integrate with SBCL
2014-10-23T19:56:44Z anonx_: ?
2014-10-23T19:56:54Z jasom: anonx_: then foil is probably your best choice
2014-10-23T19:57:28Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/foil  <-- I got it working with sbcl in my local fork
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2014-10-23T19:57:43Z anonx_: awesome thanks
2014-10-23T19:57:53Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/foil/blob/master/docs/foil.md
2014-10-23T19:58:00Z anonx_: your the man
2014-10-23T19:58:05Z jasom: It's a pain, I don't recommend it unless another route is possible
2014-10-23T19:58:17Z jasom: well a pain to deploy; playing around with it is easy
2014-10-23T19:58:24Z anonx_: hummm....
2014-10-23T19:58:37Z anonx_: then i best learn ABCL
2014-10-23T19:58:40Z jasom: I made some changes to the CLI (versus JVM) parts of it to make deploying a bit easier.
2014-10-23T19:58:48Z jasom: haven't pushed those out ti github yet though
2014-10-23T19:59:06Z drmeister: Ryan_Burnside: Hi. I don't know of any projects to wrap sfml. But if be happy to talk about wrapping it in or with clasp.
2014-10-23T19:59:44Z anonx_: I will check out your fork and ABCL
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2014-10-23T20:00:10Z jasom: anonx_: the performance at the lisp/java interface is poor, and it connects the jvm to sbcl over a tcp socket, so when deploying you need to coordinate that.
2014-10-23T20:00:24Z Ryan_Burnside: drmeister, I'll join in a sec
2014-10-23T20:00:31Z anonx_: Ah i see
2014-10-23T20:00:33Z jasom: you cannot run sbcl and the jvm in the same process on linux
2014-10-23T20:00:35Z pjb: devon: the standard way would be to (declaim (optimize space)).  I don't know if it'll have an effect in ccl.
2014-10-23T20:00:46Z anonx_: that is a pain
2014-10-23T20:00:47Z jasom: they both want to own certain parts of the memory map and signals
2014-10-23T20:01:46Z jasom: pjb, devon (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (space 3))) is more likely to work on various lisps (I don't know about ccl in particular though)
2014-10-23T20:01:47Z nyef: One exception is if the jvm you use is CLOAK, which is highly unlikely but quite handily solves the coexistence issue.
2014-10-23T20:02:11Z jasom: nyef: isn't that dead?
2014-10-23T20:02:17Z nyef: Hence highly unlikely.
2014-10-23T20:03:11Z jasom: There is a lispworks package that supports talking to java via JNI
2014-10-23T20:03:22Z jasom: don't recall the name though; it was the predecessor to FOIL
2014-10-23T20:03:51Z anonx_: yea I don't have Lispworks
2014-10-23T20:04:27Z jasom: basically the choices are abcl or anything written by rich hickey (who used lispworks)
2014-10-23T20:04:49Z anonx_: no biggie. thanks for providing me with options and your insights.
2014-10-23T20:05:41Z jasom: I hear he's been working on some jvm based lisp dialect with STM as an important feature these days
2014-10-23T20:05:54Z Ryan_Burnside: I should have used abcl at work. The java zealots would have readily been able to run my CL programs.
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2014-10-23T20:06:13Z anonx_: yea that what I am afraid of Ryan
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2014-10-23T20:06:22Z anonx_: los
2014-10-23T20:07:13Z Ryan_Burnside: Java is the backhone of so much when it comes to enterprise level stuff. Databases, various frameworks, interprocess communications...
2014-10-23T20:07:20Z Ryan_Burnside: But it just isn't as fun for me.
2014-10-23T20:07:22Z anonx_: lol end of the day I don't want the java programmers to throw a fit
2014-10-23T20:07:49Z Ryan_Burnside: Oracle has kind of sunk their claws so deeply into businesses that they are the IBM of this age.
2014-10-23T20:07:59Z jasom: I actually tried abcl running inside doppio a few weeks ago and it worked with no issues (Except slowness).
2014-10-23T20:08:00Z Ryan_Burnside: The more lisp we can sneak in the better.]
2014-10-23T20:08:35Z anonx_: yup.
2014-10-23T20:08:52Z anonx_: what are your thoughts on MOCL
2014-10-23T20:09:11Z anonx_: https://wukix.com/mocl
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2014-10-23T20:09:47Z Xach: I like the idea. I haven't tried it.
2014-10-23T20:09:53Z anonx_: same
2014-10-23T20:10:39Z anonx_: no trials or nothing
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2014-10-23T20:11:05Z Ryan_Burnside: Android has pretty much mandated Java, I'd like a non puke flavored language on my personal devices.
2014-10-23T20:11:36Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: and iOS Objective-C.  In both case, you can write the core of the code in CL with MoCL, and call it from Objective-C or Java.
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2014-10-23T20:12:14Z anonx_: yea the idea is magical
2014-10-23T20:14:06Z rjmacready_: anonx_: is it usable? how does it work, does it compile to dalvik (android) or *whatever-iOS-has* (iOS) ?
2014-10-23T20:14:15Z anonx_: never used it
2014-10-23T20:14:24Z nyef: The page said it's LLVM based.
2014-10-23T20:14:41Z rjmacready_: ah ok
2014-10-23T20:14:57Z anonx_: I will most likely buy it by end of Nov to test it out
2014-10-23T20:15:35Z rjmacready_: so it's a CL compiling to LLVM? in that case, I guess we're catching up with clasp :P
2014-10-23T20:15:39Z nyef: There are a couple of screencasts which I'm not even going to TRY to watch right now.
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2014-10-23T20:15:56Z rjmacready_: nyef: :)
2014-10-23T20:16:29Z rjmacready_: mobile development is obnoxious...
2014-10-23T20:16:43Z nyef: s/mobile//
2014-10-23T20:17:09Z rjmacready_: nyef: ahahah so true!
2014-10-23T20:17:20Z anonx_: probably has bugs since its so new but whatever. if they are putting the effort with CL then I gotta support
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2014-10-23T20:17:40Z bjorkintosh: have any of you looked read "let's talk lisp?"
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2014-10-23T20:17:46Z bjorkintosh: is it just full of silly puns?
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2014-10-23T20:18:01Z bjorkintosh: the guy refers to s expressions as SEX. constantly.
2014-10-23T20:18:20Z nyef: ... never even heard of it.
2014-10-23T20:18:32Z bjorkintosh: youngin's :)
2014-10-23T20:18:39Z anonx_: wow that's an old book
2014-10-23T20:18:42Z bjorkintosh: laurent siklossy. let's talk lisp.
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2014-10-23T20:18:49Z anonx_: 76
2014-10-23T20:19:04Z bjorkintosh: indeed.
2014-10-23T20:19:09Z bjorkintosh: lisp is 'old' too :)
2014-10-23T20:19:17Z nyef: Ah, okay.
2014-10-23T20:19:37Z nyef: Thought it might have been something newer.
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2014-10-23T20:20:02Z anonx_: i like to think in terms of more experiance because it evolves
2014-10-23T20:20:15Z bjorkintosh: it does not evolve. it changes.
2014-10-23T20:20:26Z bjorkintosh: evolution assumes that it's able to pass on useful traits :D
2014-10-23T20:20:48Z bjorkintosh: but of course, no one knows history well enough not to keep repeating it.
2014-10-23T20:20:48Z Ryan_Burnside: (sexp wife) should return t
2014-10-23T20:21:22Z anonx_: grammar isn't one of my strong points ok. lol
2014-10-23T20:21:31Z nyef: Ryan_Burnside: ... Or you should be getting an undefined variable warning.
2014-10-23T20:21:36Z bjorkintosh: 'undefined function', Ryan_Burnside.
2014-10-23T20:21:44Z nyef: Err... unbound variable error, sorry.
2014-10-23T20:22:40Z Ryan_Burnside: Or wife simply is bound to NIL
2014-10-23T20:23:26Z nyef: Or that, yes.
2014-10-23T20:23:36Z __prefect is now known as nha
2014-10-23T20:23:39Z nyef: In which case, NIL being a CONS...
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2014-10-23T20:25:03Z Ryan_Burnside: You guys every hear of scheme? I heard it is like CL but takes all of //defun// out of programming.
2014-10-23T20:25:14Z Ryan_Burnside: There should be a Lisp joke page
2014-10-23T20:25:16Z anonx_: lol
2014-10-23T20:25:49Z bjorkintosh: huh.
2014-10-23T20:25:56Z bjorkintosh: car or cdr of nil is nil.
2014-10-23T20:25:57Z bjorkintosh: clever.
2014-10-23T20:26:13Z rjmacready_: Ryan_Burnside: :D
2014-10-23T20:26:21Z jasom: my other car is a cdr
2014-10-23T20:26:32Z bjorkintosh: ouch.
2014-10-23T20:26:44Z bjorkintosh: cons trust cons?
2014-10-23T20:26:46Z bjorkintosh: no. not quite.
2014-10-23T20:27:06Z bjorkintosh: i'll see my self out.
2014-10-23T20:27:14Z Shinmera: Speaking of jokes, this is a good'un, imo http://cliki.net/Infrequently%20Asked%20Questions
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2014-10-23T20:29:01Z jasom: there was one in the fortune file at my HS about rebooting without understanding the problem won't work
2014-10-23T20:29:32Z jasom: A novice was trying to fix a broken lisp machine by turning the power off and on.  Knight, seeing what the student was doing spoke sternly, "You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong."  Knight turned the machine off and on.  The machine worked.
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2014-10-23T20:31:53Z Ryan_Burnside: Ah the "AI koans"
2014-10-23T20:32:10Z Ryan_Burnside: 4 of which you can find in The New Hacker Dictionary
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2014-10-23T20:33:22Z Xach: boo. esr butchered steele's original document.
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2014-10-23T20:36:37Z jasom: question: does anybody know *why* clhs 5.1.2.5 exists?
2014-10-23T20:36:40Z jasom: clhs 5.1.2.5
2014-10-23T20:36:40Z specbot: APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm
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2014-10-23T20:38:04Z nyef: jasom: Why shouldn't it?
2014-10-23T20:38:31Z Ryan_Burnside: The young list wanted to have large numbers like his father. His father said, larger numbers are possible but first you need to learn to multiply then APPLY yourself.
2014-10-23T20:38:47Z Ryan_Burnside cracks a window to let the smell out
2014-10-23T20:38:53Z Grue`: jasom: wow, talk about dark corners
2014-10-23T20:38:58Z rjmacready_: oh. my. god.
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2014-10-23T20:40:27Z rjmacready_: i just wanted to take the opportunity to say that i really like this channel
2014-10-23T20:40:30Z jasom: nyef: mainly it seems very special-case-ish for setf which is specifically designed to be general case
2014-10-23T20:40:31Z anonx_: has anyone dropped 5 grand for lispworks here?
2014-10-23T20:40:33Z prxq: jasom: looks as lispy as it gets, so perhaps it is there to make sure all compilers support it?
2014-10-23T20:40:44Z nyef: jasom: Looks like it's saying that APPLY can only be guaranteed to work for user-defined functions and the three array accessors specifically. Any other mechanism for defining a place or any other standard place is not guaranteed to be supported.
2014-10-23T20:41:16Z anonx_: maybe I can get my boss to pay for it. hehehe
2014-10-23T20:42:25Z anonx_: sorry I type out loud.
2014-10-23T20:42:28Z jasom: anonx_: I've used the personal edition to test a few of my libraries for portability
2014-10-23T20:42:55Z Ryan_Burnside: I've always been curious about LispWorks but I fear I'd hit the limitations mid project.
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2014-10-23T20:43:09Z Ryan_Burnside: I can't afford the full thing.
2014-10-23T20:43:15Z anonx_: me niether
2014-10-23T20:44:36Z anonx_: too expensive makes me think it might be good but it probably is simply a fallacy in my logic
2014-10-23T20:45:37Z Ryan_Burnside: Well I try to stay away from vendor lockin and I think it might create that to some extent.
2014-10-23T20:45:47Z Ryan_Burnside: Not that they do that intentionally.
2014-10-23T20:45:47Z Nilly: sbcl crashes for me more often than lw times out, so it'a good deal
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2014-10-23T20:45:58Z jasom: $1500/yr plus $375/yr for maintenance; that's not terribly expensive for development tools
2014-10-23T20:48:07Z jasom: I've only heard only positive comments from lw users, fwiw.
2014-10-23T20:48:24Z Xach: lispworks is a good system.
2014-10-23T20:48:29Z rjmacready_: jasom: yup ... compare with visual studio, for instance
2014-10-23T20:48:33Z anonx_: thats like 125 dollars a month
2014-10-23T20:48:47Z jasom: $1500/seat $375/yr
2014-10-23T20:48:52Z anonx_: hmmmm.........
2014-10-23T20:48:52Z Xach: A bargain at twice the price
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2014-10-23T20:48:54Z jasom: anonx_: I had the wrong units
2014-10-23T20:48:57Z rjmacready_: or embarcadero (delphi, c++) stuff
2014-10-23T20:49:05Z Xach: Quicklisp Platinum is US$13k/year, so
2014-10-23T20:49:09Z Ryan_Burnside: I'm kind of out of work at the moment and living with my parents like a looser. So I can't afford it at the moment.
2014-10-23T20:49:20Z Ryan_Burnside: *loser
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2014-10-23T21:04:05Z devon: pjb, jasom: CCL fasls and native executables full of lisp source regardless of optimize declamation.
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2014-10-23T21:11:45Z Ryan_Burnside: bjorkintosh, I kind of want to read that Lets Talk Lisp book fromm the 70's.
2014-10-23T21:11:54Z Ryan_Burnside: Just to see how odd it is. I like historic computer things.
2014-10-23T21:12:03Z bjorkintosh: there's a pdf somewhere, i think.
2014-10-23T21:12:06Z bjorkintosh: it's full of silly puns.
2014-10-23T21:12:15Z Ryan_Burnside: It is not too expensive to have a copy...
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2014-10-23T21:35:14Z rak[1]: Anyone here use --with-threads compiled version of CLISP ?
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2014-10-23T21:49:02Z drewc: does anyone here use CLISP? :)
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2014-10-23T21:49:53Z Grue`: CLISP was good back when it was the only free Lisp that worked on Windows
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2014-10-23T21:50:53Z Ryan_Burnside: Isn't there some concern with the SBCL windows port?
2014-10-23T21:51:04Z Ryan_Burnside: I recall it being called "fragile"
2014-10-23T21:51:28Z Grue`: it works alright
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2014-10-23T21:52:11Z Grue`: there's also CCL
2014-10-23T21:54:43Z nyef: Ryan_Burnside: At one point SBCL on windows was so unstable that you could call MessageBoxA from the REPL if and only if the overall form was so complicated that the compiler had to get involved, otherwise it would crash after dismissing the messagebox.
2014-10-23T21:55:02Z nyef: These days it's rather a bit more stable than that.
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2014-10-23T21:57:11Z drewc: I stopped using windows in '95, and rarely write code for it anymore, but I did tryout CLISP there in '04, so ... it was no good backk then and it was also maintained quite a bit back then as well... has it improved and my thoughts about it are verklempt
2014-10-23T21:57:13Z drewc: ?
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2014-10-23T21:59:29Z nyef: I believe that the last time I tried using clisp on windows was around maybe 2k9(?), and overall it was a fairly horrid experience.
2014-10-23T21:59:40Z nyef: Might have been partly my setup, though.
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2014-10-23T22:01:16Z Ryan_Burnside: I assume most Lisp users prefer a POSIX environment?
2014-10-23T22:01:30Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: as opposed to what?
2014-10-23T22:01:32Z Ryan_Burnside: BSD, Linux, Mac etc
2014-10-23T22:01:38Z Ryan_Burnside: as opposed to Windows
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2014-10-23T22:01:45Z drewc does not like POSIX very much either
2014-10-23T22:02:02Z Ryan_Burnside: I guess "UNIX like"
2014-10-23T22:02:05Z faheem_: Ryan_Burnside: i think people prefer a non-horrible OS.
2014-10-23T22:02:23Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_POSIX_subsystem
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2014-10-23T22:02:55Z Ryan_Burnside: OK drewc I meant it in the incorrect "smells like UNIX" sense.
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2014-10-23T22:03:35Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX ?
2014-10-23T22:03:51Z drewc is being obtuse on purpose here BTW
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2014-10-23T22:04:46Z Ryan_Burnside: Something is bound to be broken or incomparable there.
2014-10-23T22:04:53Z drewc: wait ... is that subtlety? Inquiring minds went to know :)
2014-10-23T22:05:10Z drewc: s/went/want ... damn brain!
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2014-10-23T22:06:52Z Ryan_Burnside: I guess my point is perhaps the lisp stuff  in Windows is shaky because everyone is too busy using it on other platforms to help out.
2014-10-23T22:07:00Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: broken as opposed to what? I mean, bash is bash no matter where you run it ... so it is at least as insecure as GNU systems! Other
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2014-10-23T22:07:17Z drewc: yikes. enter and not shift there!
2014-10-23T22:07:50Z Ryan_Burnside: Broken as in it uses the wrong line return sequence or some other small thing.
2014-10-23T22:08:12Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: you mean the open source lisp stuff? Because I have used Allegro AND LispWorks on win32 and they are excellent.
2014-10-23T22:08:26Z Ryan_Burnside: Yeah, open sores.
2014-10-23T22:08:30Z Ryan_Burnside: :)
2014-10-23T22:09:03Z nyef: Ryan_Burnside: Wrong line terminator sequence? That should be a fairly straightforward thing to contribute for someone wanting to get their feet wet with SBCL hacking.
2014-10-23T22:09:07Z Ryan_Burnside: Obviously money drives commercial products.
2014-10-23T22:10:10Z Ryan_Burnside: Maybe Clojure is a good solution but I have no idea, the syntax is ugly from what I saw.
2014-10-23T22:10:57Z drewc: EBCDIC has the only right one!
2014-10-23T22:11:01Z Ryan_Burnside: NO
2014-10-23T22:11:03Z Ryan_Burnside: NO NO NO
2014-10-23T22:11:06Z Ryan_Burnside: Never that.
2014-10-23T22:11:18Z drewc: wait, we are talking about lisp here, correct?
2014-10-23T22:11:21Z Ryan_Burnside: That is IBM poison!
2014-10-23T22:11:32Z drewc: #\Newline ?
2014-10-23T22:11:49Z Ryan_Burnside: I meant in the shell, not Lisp.
2014-10-23T22:11:52Z Ryan_Burnside: Topic split somehow.
2014-10-23T22:12:23Z Ryan_Burnside: I don't trust Microsoft's implimentation of the bash shell.
2014-10-23T22:12:37Z Ryan_Burnside: Hell it is half assed in the "power shell"
2014-10-23T22:12:39Z drewc: I thought this was a lisp channel. My bad.
2014-10-23T22:12:42Z Ryan_Burnside: k
2014-10-23T22:13:37Z Ryan_Burnside: Half of the discussion was Windows being POSIX compliant.
2014-10-23T22:13:47Z drewc: microsoft has a bash port? does it come with windows or how do I see it?
2014-10-23T22:13:59Z Ryan_Burnside: The other half how dependable various CL implementations are on Windows.
2014-10-23T22:14:17Z drewc: I have only used win-bash and cygwin-bash, no idea that MS had their own
2014-10-23T22:14:37Z Ryan_Burnside: They tried to impliment a few bash like commands into the powershell
2014-10-23T22:14:52Z Ryan_Burnside: There are some big inconsistencies.
2014-10-23T22:14:56Z drewc: bash-like? define that if you could.
2014-10-23T22:15:03Z Ryan_Burnside: grep etc
2014-10-23T22:15:07Z Ryan_Burnside: ls
2014-10-23T22:15:25Z drewc: you are aware that those have nothing at all to do with bash, correct?
2014-10-23T22:15:40Z Ryan_Burnside: They may be called from bash.
2014-10-23T22:15:51Z drewc: and from cmd.exe
2014-10-23T22:15:53Z Ryan_Burnside: But the utilities are older
2014-10-23T22:16:07Z Ryan_Burnside: Ok, fine standard UNIX utility programs.
2014-10-23T22:16:31Z drewc: So, what is wrong with http://www.cygwin.com/ then?
2014-10-23T22:16:59Z Ryan_Burnside: Nothing, makes Windows more usable.
2014-10-23T22:17:35Z drewc: and busybox?
2014-10-23T22:17:48Z Nilly: Windows is awesome. It has to solve the halting problem to even run. ;)
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2014-10-23T22:18:10Z Ryan_Burnside: I believe support for the Korn shell is now needed to be POSIX compatable.
2014-10-23T22:18:31Z nyef: I'm suddenly thinking of the band...
2014-10-23T22:19:01Z drewc used ksh93 when he was a unix script developer
2014-10-23T22:20:35Z Ryan_Burnside: I'd not call Windows posix compliant when you purchase it.
2014-10-23T22:20:39Z Ryan_Burnside: Not with the newest standards.
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2014-10-23T22:21:06Z Ryan_Burnside: But this is offtopic.
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2014-10-23T22:22:32Z drewc purchased Xenix in '93 or so, does that count as M$ and POSIX?
2014-10-23T22:22:50Z Ryan_Burnside: (SUA appears to be deprecated in Windows 8)
2014-10-23T22:23:55Z Ryan_Burnside: It would appear that Microsoft no longer cares and is purging all of that out of their OS.
2014-10-23T22:24:10Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: remove-if-not has been deprecated since the ANSI standard was created ....I still use it all the time! ;)
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2014-10-23T22:26:03Z drewc is trying to get back on topic ... it's my "Save the Humans campaign" :)
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2014-10-23T22:54:39Z jasom: help me out; someone in here has a project for generating FFI from C headers; I don't recall the name though.
2014-10-23T22:56:19Z stacksmith_: c2ffi?
2014-10-23T22:56:20Z jasom: found it; c2ffi
2014-10-23T22:57:08Z stacksmith_: There is also parse-c-header from 2012 here...https://github.com/o-jasper/parse-c-header
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2014-10-23T22:59:08Z jasom: actually cl-autowrap is what I was specifically thinking of (which is built on top of c2ffi)
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2014-10-23T23:06:19Z stacksmith_: Oh good, cl-autowrap is in quicklisp...
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2014-10-23T23:24:26Z drewc has been looking at  / trying to compile c2ffi
2014-10-23T23:25:08Z drewc: it looks great, and of course cl-autowrap is the reason I want it.
2014-10-23T23:25:18Z White_Flame: Does anybody know about a Linda/Jini/JavaSpaces sort of system for CL?
2014-10-23T23:28:42Z Xach: White_Flame: what does that do?
2014-10-23T23:29:05Z drewc: White_Flame: that depends on what you mean.
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2014-10-23T23:30:23Z White_Flame: a blackboard leasing model with distributed clients
2014-10-23T23:31:30Z drewc is thinking that eager-future, hunchentoot, BT + Usockets, or http://lparallel.org/ all might have some play... but now has to look up "blackboard leasing" for has no idea.
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2014-10-23T23:32:27Z White_Flame: dump information or task requests onto a blackboard, services "take" those requests off the board with a lease, do the work, the info reappears if the lease times out
2014-10-23T23:32:33Z drewc: and my "looking it up by typing it into search engines" failed
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2014-10-23T23:34:44Z White_Flame: I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuple_space is a more preferred terminology today, and "blackboard" has been co-opted into a particular usage thereof
2014-10-23T23:34:58Z pjb: rak[1]: I have used clisp with threads.  What's your question again?
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2014-10-23T23:35:52Z drewc: White_Flame: what is wrong with a queue in the Master and WITH-TIMEOUT for when the worker fails? OR: what have you tried?
2014-10-23T23:36:29Z White_Flame: I'm looking for an existing implementation
2014-10-23T23:36:33Z White_Flame: not to write one
2014-10-23T23:36:57Z White_Flame: and it's not a queue.  It's sort of doing a socket select on a query of available matches
2014-10-23T23:37:17Z White_Flame: granted, it's not a super-complex sort of system, but curious if one's already out there
2014-10-23T23:37:54Z pjb: rak[1]: #+clisp (ql:quickload :bordeaux-thread) (use-package :bt) (make-thread (lambda () (loop repeat 10 do (sleep 1) (princ ".") (finish-output))) :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*))) ; works perfectly. What more do you need?
2014-10-23T23:38:18Z pjb: drewc: yes, people use clisp.
2014-10-23T23:38:35Z pjb: Grue`: clisp is still good.
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2014-10-23T23:39:23Z pjb: The only thing you can reproach to clisp, (but also to some other implementations, and actually, to all known implementation at least in a small part), is that it is implemented with an important percentage of C code.
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2014-10-23T23:41:43Z pjb: drewc: AFAIK, clisp is the only implementation where you can easily add support for EBCDIC external-formats!
2014-10-23T23:42:18Z pjb: drewc: unicode also has newline. erm, several newlines actually :-/
2014-10-23T23:42:25Z nyef: pjb: As opposed to SBCL, which already has EBCDIC.
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2014-10-23T23:43:40Z pjb: nyef: good to know.
2014-10-23T23:43:50Z pjb: jasom: you can use swig to generate cffi interfaces.
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2014-10-23T23:44:22Z drewc: pjb: Is it C? I remember it being .D 8)
2014-10-23T23:44:36Z pjb: swig parses C and C++ AFAIK.
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2014-10-23T23:44:54Z pjb: drewc: clisp is written in C.  C has a preprocessor which implements macros.
2014-10-23T23:45:07Z pjb: drewc: your lisp code in not written in drewcl, it's written in CL, right?
2014-10-23T23:45:55Z pjb: White_Flame: there's a blackboard modele in LISA.
2014-10-23T23:46:30Z drewc: pjb: so why do a lot of files have  .d extension? It is all just CPP macros?
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2014-10-23T23:47:02Z pjb: drewc: to let make remember to use a pre-processor on it.
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2014-10-23T23:47:10Z pjb: drewc: yes, metaprogramming in C is messy.
2014-10-23T23:47:32Z drewc: jasom: I used swig to generate such things, hence my reason for wanting c2ffi and cl-autowrap :)
2014-10-23T23:47:43Z drewc: pjb: ah, fair enough.
2014-10-23T23:47:48Z White_Flame: pjb:  Is LISA the Lisp Rete implementation?
2014-10-23T23:48:02Z pjb: cpp is so limited, you soon have to write your own pre-processor (in C) to process your C sources :-)
2014-10-23T23:48:05Z pjb: White_Flame: yes.
2014-10-23T23:48:15Z White_Flame: pjb:  yeah, that doesn't do concurrent clients & leasing
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2014-10-23T23:48:32Z pjb: cf Cfront (c++), Objective-C (in early implementations), pro*sql etc.
2014-10-23T23:48:53Z White_Flame: (and I've never been able to successfully use Lisa, I presume it's old and unmaintained)
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2014-10-23T23:49:50Z pjb: White_Flame: ok, perhaps there's something in the sources of OMAS. It would definitely support multi-processing.
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2014-10-23T23:52:44Z drewc: White_Flame: https://github.com/lmj/lfarm/blob/master/README.md is the only thing that I could come up with .. but I know nothing about what you want let alone what you need... to me a tuple is a LIST, and I likely cannot look past that. :(
2014-10-23T23:54:02Z White_Flame: right, a tuple space is an unorganized space you can simply deposit tuples into
2014-10-23T23:54:37Z White_Flame: and use those as an information hub for distributed processes, with ownership & lifetime management of those tuples
2014-10-23T23:55:38Z White_Flame: anyway, sounds like the answer is 'no'.  Wiki mentions it's been done in Lisp, but the project has likely fallen off the net
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