2014-10-17T00:00:34Z spacebat: pillton: thanks yes that looks reasonable
2014-10-17T00:01:20Z spacebat: first time I've seen asdf:load-system though, its always been operate load-op - is that a new thing?
2014-10-17T00:01:21Z drewc: spacebat: basically, your PROGN will not work, as it will not READ, let alone EVAL.
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2014-10-17T00:01:35Z orthecreedence: hi everyone
2014-10-17T00:01:48Z pillton: spacebat: It has been around for a while.
2014-10-17T00:01:51Z spacebat: drewc: makes sense
2014-10-17T00:01:56Z orthecreedence: is there an efficient way to pop an elemnt off of the beginning of an array?
2014-10-17T00:01:57Z drewc: spacebat: I have not used 'load-op for years now
2014-10-17T00:02:24Z orthecreedence: like with a list you can (setf my-list (cdr my-list))
2014-10-17T00:02:48Z pillton: clhs vector-pop
2014-10-17T00:02:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_po.htm
2014-10-17T00:02:52Z orthecreedence: can i change the pointer to the beginning of a vector without copying to a new one?
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2014-10-17T00:03:13Z drewc: orthecreedence: well, there is no such thing ... but yes, sort of
2014-10-17T00:03:19Z drewc: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#reading-input
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2014-10-17T00:03:53Z drewc: or: you know what a vector /is/, correct?
2014-10-17T00:03:53Z orthecreedence: oh right, displacement
2014-10-17T00:04:13Z orthecreedence: i think so, but in case not, whats the definition?
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2014-10-17T00:04:54Z drewc: In this case, all three : http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/a_vector.htm
2014-10-17T00:05:31Z orthecreedence: ok, i was thinking more of a flat array (incidentally of type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2014-10-17T00:06:06Z drewc: which is a vector, non?
2014-10-17T00:06:21Z drewc: OR: define "flat array"
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2014-10-17T00:06:34Z orthecreedence: no sub-arrays
2014-10-17T00:06:57Z orthecreedence: so a number-indexed set of continuous values
2014-10-17T00:07:05Z orthecreedence: that's my understanding
2014-10-17T00:07:34Z drewc: and how does that differ from VECTOR exactly?
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2014-10-17T00:07:51Z orthecreedence: that's my definition of a vector
2014-10-17T00:07:58Z drewc: or are we not talking about common lisp here but rather computing?
2014-10-17T00:08:39Z orthecreedence: sorry, i think we got wires crossed. if my definition of a vector is sound, then i know what a vector is (in CL terms, not general computing)
2014-10-17T00:10:28Z orthecreedence: i guess another question is if i have a displaced vector B pointing to vector A + 5, and the reference to A is lost, will the lost 5 bytes from A (which are now unreachable) be GCed?
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2014-10-17T00:11:07Z drewc: how are they now unreachable?
2014-10-17T00:11:32Z drewc: "displaced vector B pointing to vector A" .... is a reference, non?
2014-10-17T00:11:42Z faheem___: So suppose I've got the function -> (defun foo (j) (and (=(mod j 2) 0) (= (mod j 5) 0)))
2014-10-17T00:11:51Z orthecreedence: well, if you can do b[-3] then yes
2014-10-17T00:11:54Z orthecreedence: is that possible?
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2014-10-17T00:12:28Z faheem___: but i want to machine extend the (=(mod j 2) 0) forms from 1 through 10, say.
2014-10-17T00:12:47Z drewc: orthecreedence: define ARRAY? OR: there are no negatives... but is that a displaced array?
2014-10-17T00:12:47Z faheem___: i can make a list like -> (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect `(= (mod j ,i) 0))
2014-10-17T00:12:54Z faheem___: can i insert the latter in the former?
2014-10-17T00:13:03Z drewc: orthecreedence: there are no pointers in CL
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2014-10-17T00:14:04Z PuercoPop: just curious, is this related to parsing http?
2014-10-17T00:14:18Z orthecreedence: no, rewriting the async-streams implementation on top of libuv
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2014-10-17T00:14:39Z orthecreedence: and it was easy with libevent becaise i could say "give me the next 10 bytes"
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2014-10-17T00:15:05Z orthecreedence: with libuv, i have to buffer the data into lisp as it comes in (into a vector most likely, but not married to this data structure)
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2014-10-17T00:15:32Z orthecreedence: so i'm wondering what the best to to say "give me the first 10 bytes from this vector then remove the first 10 bytes from the vector" is
2014-10-17T00:15:51Z orthecreedence: i'd like to avoid copying into a new vector each time if possible
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2014-10-17T00:16:52Z orthecreedence: i guess i can just do it the easiest way and rewrite for performance later
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2014-10-17T00:18:01Z drewc: orthecreedence: and what is wrong with the displaced array?
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2014-10-17T00:19:36Z orthecreedence: well nothing is wrong with it if it gets GCed such that the data *before* index 0 of the array displacing the other is cleaned up
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2014-10-17T00:19:54Z White_Flame: an array is a single GCable unit
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2014-10-17T00:20:04Z drewc: well, it cannot .... because you do not want a new array!
2014-10-17T00:20:04Z White_Flame: (notwithstanding pointed-at contents)
2014-10-17T00:20:22Z orthecreedence: that makes sense
2014-10-17T00:20:28Z White_Flame: if this is for streaming, then you're going to be dealing with multiple arrays
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2014-10-17T00:20:51Z orthecreedence: that was my intuition, but i wanted to make sure i wasn't doing something stupid
2014-10-17T00:20:54Z White_Flame: you can't have a single array that you grow at the tail and shrink at the head; that's going to be a compound structure of multiple arrays
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2014-10-17T00:21:18Z drewc: you cannot throw away something in use. arrays are arrays, even in LISP.
2014-10-17T00:21:19Z orthecreedence: half the time i spend 3 hours building something it turns out CL has the command i wanted already and its 20x faster than what i built
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2014-10-17T00:21:37Z Xach: that can only happen up to 978 times
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2014-10-17T00:21:46Z orthecreedence: ok, thanks guys
2014-10-17T00:21:52Z Xach: (or as many times as you forget things)
2014-10-17T00:21:56Z orthecreedence: that all makes sense
2014-10-17T00:22:05Z White_Flame: Xach: not necessarily; sub-features due to optional & keyword arguments expand that as well
2014-10-17T00:22:06Z orthecreedence: hope so! i'm probably approaching the 500s now
2014-10-17T00:22:17Z Xach: White_Flame: sorry, 978 is the limit
2014-10-17T00:22:29Z faheem___: suppose i have the expression -> '(and (=(mod j 2) 0) (= (mod j 5) 0)). is it possible to have an equivalent expression applying and to a list? like apply, but AND isn't a function.
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2014-10-17T00:23:03Z Xach: faheem___: what is in the list? lambdas?
2014-10-17T00:23:24Z drewc: faheem___: Do you mean EVAL ?
2014-10-17T00:24:06Z faheem___: Xach: the same thing as in -> '(and (=(mod j 2) 0) (= (mod j 5) 0)) , so something like
2014-10-17T00:24:22Z faheem___: (  (=(mod j 2) 0)  (= (mod j 5) 0)  )
2014-10-17T00:24:30Z orthecreedence: quick question...does subseq retain fill-pointer/adjustable?
2014-10-17T00:24:32Z faheem___: ok, forget the specifics
2014-10-17T00:24:42Z White_Flame: faheem___:  how do you bind the variable j to its value?
2014-10-17T00:25:03Z spacebat: faheem___: generally when you find yourself needing to use eval, go back and check there isn't another way first
2014-10-17T00:25:11Z White_Flame: if the whole thing is a quoted list, apply won't work, nor will eval "see" lexical variables in the eval caller
2014-10-17T00:25:34Z Xach: faheem___: http://lisptips.com/post/11608641449/how-do-i-apply-and is something i wrote on the topic some time ago
2014-10-17T00:25:35Z drewc: (let ((j 10)) (declare (special j)) (eval '(and (=(mod j 2) 0) (= (mod j 5) 0))))
2014-10-17T00:25:49Z faheem___: Xach: ok, thanks
2014-10-17T00:25:57Z Xach: faheem___: it's not quite the same situation
2014-10-17T00:26:04Z drewc 's code is really bad and should not be done like that at all
2014-10-17T00:26:37Z faheem___: Xach thanks. maybe i should be using every instead
2014-10-17T00:26:57Z faheem___: so there no general APPLY equivalent for macros?
2014-10-17T00:27:07Z spacebat: faheem___: I'd probably accumulate a list of the arguments to mod and write a function that loops over them to be logically equivalent
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2014-10-17T00:27:23Z Xach: faheem___: no. macros cannot be applied directly. (that's one reason to prefer functions when feasible.)
2014-10-17T00:27:31Z faheem___: spacebat: right
2014-10-17T00:27:34Z drewc: faheem: macrolet? OR: what do you mean be APPLY for macros?
2014-10-17T00:27:38Z faheem___: Xach: yes, i see.
2014-10-17T00:27:48Z drewc: s/be/by
2014-10-17T00:27:51Z faheem___: drewc: apply a macro to a list of arguments
2014-10-17T00:27:56Z spacebat: faheem___: macro calls return code that is substituted in their place
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2014-10-17T00:28:14Z faheem___: spacebat: yes, i see.
2014-10-17T00:28:33Z White_Flame: but still, neither apply nor every will evaluate your arguments, if they're of the form '(= (mod j 2) 0) etc
2014-10-17T00:28:42Z spacebat: faheem___: there's an interesting old feature called a fexpr which is like what you're describing, but generally not present in modern, optimizable lisps
2014-10-17T00:28:49Z White_Flame: the called function will receive that expression list, not the evaluated result
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2014-10-17T00:29:27Z faheem___: White_Flame: yes, i don't want the expression
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2014-10-17T00:29:51Z faheem___: but i guess i'd be doing every on (= (mod j 2) 0)
2014-10-17T00:29:57Z White_Flame: faheem___: you're describing that you want eval.  Now, why do you have an expression list, and how could you avoid eval?
2014-10-17T00:30:05Z Xach: I sometimes write something like (every (callfun 10) (=mod-zerop 2) (=mod-zerop 5))
2014-10-17T00:30:17Z faheem___: White_Flame: i don't really need an expression list.
2014-10-17T00:30:21Z Xach: err, (list (=mod-...) (=...))
2014-10-17T00:30:35Z faheem___: i thought applying AND was reasonable. apparently one cannot do that. it's fine.
2014-10-17T00:30:48Z faheem___: I think EVERY will do me.
2014-10-17T00:31:07Z faheem___: mod-zerop?
2014-10-17T00:31:32Z drewc: faheem___: apply'ing a macro makes no sense at all.... they are for code, not for data... you know if your code is a list, you are typing it in :)
2014-10-17T00:31:33Z faheem___: oh, i see. user defined.
2014-10-17T00:31:45Z faheem___: drewc: yes, agreed.
2014-10-17T00:32:06Z White_Flame: the fact that AND can perform short-circuiting precludes its definition as an applyable function
2014-10-17T00:32:28Z faheem___: i thought i could apply AND in such a way that it was what I want, but I guess not
2014-10-17T00:32:39Z White_Flame: consider if (apply #'if foo bar baz) was possible.  There'd be no way to avoid evaluation of both bar & baz
2014-10-17T00:32:43Z faheem___: White_Flame: ok.
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2014-10-17T00:33:39Z faheem___: I don't understand what (apply #'if foo bar baz)  would be for.
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2014-10-17T00:34:22Z pillton: IF is a special operator. You cannot use APPLY on special operators.
2014-10-17T00:34:41Z spacebat: faheem___: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144067
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2014-10-17T00:36:00Z White_Flame: faheem___: in the same way, (apply #'and ...) becomes nonsensical
2014-10-17T00:36:38Z White_Flame: since (if foo bar) is equivalent to (and foo bar)
2014-10-17T00:38:03Z faheem___: So, one could write something like:
2014-10-17T00:38:08Z faheem___:  (defun foo (j) (every #’(loop for i from 1 to 10 collect `(= (mod j ,i) 0))))
2014-10-17T00:38:12Z faheem___: instead?
2014-10-17T00:38:19Z Xach: faheem___: no. that is not valid syntax.
2014-10-17T00:38:26Z faheem___: Xach: i realise that
2014-10-17T00:38:44Z faheem___: but can it be fixed up?
2014-10-17T00:38:48Z White_Flame: (every function sequences...)
2014-10-17T00:39:25Z faheem___: hmm
2014-10-17T00:39:54Z spacebat: faheem___: the solution I pasted could have an extra parameter which is called instead of (not (zerop (mod ...)))
2014-10-17T00:39:56Z White_Flame: so (every (lambda (x) (= (mod j x) 0)) '(2 5)) would be equivalent to your AND'ed expression before
2014-10-17T00:40:04Z Xach: faheem___: it would be easier to do (loop for i from 1 to 10 always (zerop (mod j i)))
2014-10-17T00:40:07Z White_Flame: (barring typos and paren errors)
2014-10-17T00:40:24Z spacebat: ah always - I forgot about that
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2014-10-17T00:41:54Z faheem___: White_Flame: right, so that could be easily extended.
2014-10-17T00:42:02Z faheem___: Xach: yes, maybe that is easier
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2014-10-17T00:42:19Z White_Flame got into the conversation late and doesn't know the full looping context
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2014-10-17T00:44:50Z faheem___: White_Flame: there isn't much of one
2014-10-17T00:45:24Z faheem___: i was trying to write a function which check for numbers that are mod 0 across a range of values
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2014-10-17T00:45:48Z faheem___: and i was just messing around with various things to see what would happen
2014-10-17T00:46:07Z Xach: faheem___: there are lots of options
2014-10-17T00:46:27Z faheem___: Xach: agreed
2014-10-17T00:47:12Z faheem___: i guess you don't use macro type stuff if you don't have to. since it has various limitations
2014-10-17T00:48:12Z faheem___: is there some canonical way to expand out an expression without evaluating it?
2014-10-17T00:48:14Z faheem___: say i have
2014-10-17T00:48:30Z spacebat: faheem___: a rule of thumb is use simple functions if that's enough, then use higher order functions if you need to go further, then if you really do have a special case, use macros
2014-10-17T00:49:04Z spacebat: faheem___: macroexpand and friends
2014-10-17T00:50:36Z faheem___:  '(and (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect `(= (mod j ,i) 0)))
2014-10-17T00:50:49Z faheem___: spacebat: sure.
2014-10-17T00:51:56Z faheem___: actually, that last expression makes slime extremely unhappy. for reasons that are unclear to me.
2014-10-17T00:51:57Z spacebat: faheem___: you'd want `(and ,@(loop for i from 1 to 10 collect `(= (mod j ,i) 0)))
2014-10-17T00:53:19Z faheem___: ah, cool
2014-10-17T00:53:28Z faheem___: @ does a replace thingy, right?
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2014-10-17T00:54:41Z faheem___: what's a graceful way of killing SLIME? I've forgotten. Something involving a comma.
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2014-10-17T00:55:08Z spacebat: faheem___: ,@some-list splices in the elements of some-list
2014-10-17T00:55:29Z faheem___: spacebat: nice
2014-10-17T00:55:37Z spacebat: there's a cheat sheet around somewhere
2014-10-17T00:56:08Z faheem___: spacebat: ok
2014-10-17T00:58:33Z White_Flame: C-c C-c tries to interrupt your current REPL command
2014-10-17T00:58:43Z White_Flame: M-x slime-disconnect, M-x slime-quit-lisp do their respective things
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2014-10-17T01:00:04Z faheem___: White_Flame: is slime-disconnect equivalent to , followed by quit?
2014-10-17T01:00:30Z faheem___: or maybe not. that seems to stop slime
2014-10-17T01:03:55Z spacebat: faheem___: more general http://paste.lisp.org/display/144067#1
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2014-10-17T01:04:32Z faheem___: spacebat: thanks
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2014-10-17T01:16:19Z faheem___: Can one do something like:
2014-10-17T01:16:21Z faheem___: (defun foo (j) (every (lambda (x) (= (mod j x) 0)) `(,@(loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i))))
2014-10-17T01:16:37Z faheem___: this runs, but is unlikely to be correct as written
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2014-10-17T01:17:10Z faheem___: same idea as
2014-10-17T01:17:13Z faheem___: (defun foo (j) (every (lambda (x) (= (mod j x) 0)) '(2 5)))
2014-10-17T01:17:13Z Bicyclidine: um, well the ` and ,@ are pointless, the loop collects those fine.
2014-10-17T01:17:23Z Bicyclidine: but yeah, that works fine.
2014-10-17T01:17:56Z faheem___: Bicyclidine: i don't think it is right actually.
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2014-10-17T01:18:28Z Bicyclidine: (defun foo (j) (every (lambda (x) (zerop (mod j x))) (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i)))
2014-10-17T01:19:33Z Bicyclidine: (foo 6) => NIL, (foo 10) => NIL, (foo (* 5 7 8 9)) => T
2014-10-17T01:21:11Z faheem___: Bicyclidine: if i use the syntax above, i get an error.
2014-10-17T01:21:48Z faheem___: (defun foo (j) (every (lambda (x) (= (mod j x) 0)) ((loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i))))
2014-10-17T01:23:44Z faheem___: oh, too many brackets, maybe
2014-10-17T01:24:22Z faheem___: yes, that was it
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2014-10-17T01:24:35Z faheem___: (defun foo (j) (every (lambda (x) (= (mod j x) 0)) (loop for i from 1 to 5 collect i)))
2014-10-17T01:24:39Z faheem___: works
2014-10-17T01:25:58Z White_Flame: I'd recomment the version from before, with 'always' inside the loo
2014-10-17T01:26:15Z White_Flame: you're constructing a list of 1-10 kind of needlessly, just to pass through the lambda check
2014-10-17T01:26:22Z White_Flame: erm, 1-5
2014-10-17T01:26:36Z faheem___: White_Flame: yes, it's not supposed to be actually useful for anything
2014-10-17T01:26:40Z faheem___: just experimentation
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2014-10-17T01:28:36Z spacebat: faheem___: its very worth getting past this point in learning lisp
2014-10-17T01:28:46Z faheem___: spacebat: true
2014-10-17T01:29:13Z spacebat: I recall being a bit flummoxed when I first started throwing expressions around and thought I'd have to call eval a lot
2014-10-17T01:29:22Z faheem___: i worked a bit on it in 2012. but i've had a hard time keeping the syntax in my head
2014-10-17T01:29:44Z faheem___: so, i'm just playing with it to get my brain a chance to get accustomed.
2014-10-17T01:30:05Z spacebat: and macros can still prove tricky, one reason they are best left as a last resort
2014-10-17T01:30:48Z spacebat: time for lunch, bbl
2014-10-17T01:31:03Z faheem___: spacebat: right. they still seem to be used a lot. i expressed that somewhere recently. and someone remarked that without macro a CL implementation would not start up
2014-10-17T01:31:19Z faheem___: which may be true. no idea
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2014-10-17T01:40:14Z papachan: hello
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2014-10-17T02:29:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-10-17T02:29:44Z ack006: beach: good morning :-)
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2014-10-17T02:32:56Z beach: ack006: You are doing something with Genera, right?  Could you explain in a sentence or two what it is that you are doing?
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2014-10-17T02:36:50Z drmeister: Good morning beach.
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2014-10-17T02:37:06Z beach: drmeister: How is the move going?
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2014-10-17T02:43:59Z ack006: beach: sorry for delay :-)
2014-10-17T02:44:55Z ack006: beach: i'm working on a small appliance which will run the quasi-official(?) port of vlm in a virtual machine
2014-10-17T02:45:17Z drmeister: beach: It's just packing boxes - my students have it under control (I hope).
2014-10-17T02:46:03Z ack006: beach: it would have been possible to run it directly on 64 bits linux, but the vlm port uses a very old version of the x libraries, that's why we need a virtual machine for a virtual machine right now :-)
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2014-10-17T02:46:27Z beach: ack006: I see.  Remind me what VLM is?
2014-10-17T02:46:40Z ack006: beach: Virtual Lisp Machine, yay!
2014-10-17T02:46:48Z beach: Ah, easy!
2014-10-17T02:47:36Z drmeister: beach: We got 4 licenses from the Unreal Engine Academic program today.  I've got some undergrads who are going to expose the Unreal Engine to Clasp.
2014-10-17T02:48:24Z beach: drmeister: Games?
2014-10-17T02:48:52Z ack006: beach: :-)
2014-10-17T02:48:56Z drmeister: Sure - and scientific visualization
2014-10-17T02:49:00Z beach: ack006: So you run the VLM on an Alpha emulator?
2014-10-17T02:49:16Z beach: drmeister: I see.
2014-10-17T02:49:23Z drmeister: Demonstrate the power of interfacing C++ to Common Lisp.
2014-10-17T02:49:32Z ack006: beach: that would be cool, too, but no, someone ported it to run on x86-64
2014-10-17T02:49:44Z ack006: beach: linux
2014-10-17T02:49:49Z beach: ack006: Got it.
2014-10-17T02:50:54Z drmeister: I don't know if it's going to work - there are a lot of unknowns.   For instance, clang on Windows doesn't support exception handling.  Without exception handling there can be no Common Lisp - C++ interoperation.
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2014-10-17T02:51:38Z beach: Are there still people using Windows?
2014-10-17T02:51:59Z zRecursive: me
2014-10-17T02:52:31Z zRecursive: i indeed need to run some Windows app(s)
2014-10-17T02:52:34Z beach: ack006: How does running VLM in a virtual machine solve the X11 problem.
2014-10-17T02:52:52Z ack006: beach: by using an older X11 server :-)
2014-10-17T02:53:14Z beach: ack006: Wow, you are going though a lot of trouble.
2014-10-17T02:53:24Z beach: ack006: Don't you have the source for the VLM?
2014-10-17T02:53:34Z ack006: beach: either that or no LispM, easy choice :-)
2014-10-17T02:53:51Z beach: I understand.
2014-10-17T02:54:35Z ack006: beach: sadly, no, and i'm not sure if we'll ever get it (officially). the last owner of it has died, and the company property, etc. is in a mess, afaik.
2014-10-17T02:55:19Z ack006: owner as in owner of the intellectual property, not the one who made the port.
2014-10-17T02:55:31Z Zhivago: Given that they're all horribly obsolete ...
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2014-10-17T02:56:38Z beach: ack006: Would it be possible to obtain it unofficially?  I mean, isn't it already illegal to run Genera without a license, right?
2014-10-17T02:56:52Z ack006: beach: shhhhhh ;-)
2014-10-17T02:57:05Z ack006: beach: don't tell anyone
2014-10-17T02:57:14Z beach: I doubt anyone cares.
2014-10-17T02:58:02Z ack006: beach: sadly i've been around long enough to know that there's always old egyptian locusts who creep out of holes under the pyramids after 2000 years :-)
2014-10-17T02:58:18Z ack006: remember sco vs linux?
2014-10-17T02:58:23Z ack006: or the bsd battles?
2014-10-17T02:58:25Z beach: I do, yes.
2014-10-17T02:58:36Z beach: And OpenOffice.
2014-10-17T02:58:36Z ack006: i wouldn't want to go through that all over again.
2014-10-17T02:58:44Z ack006: yup
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2014-10-17T03:02:48Z ack006: Zhivago: until i see each and every feature that made genera so great implemented in one form or another in current development environments, nothing is obsolete
2014-10-17T03:03:24Z ack006: and i'm not talking about visual studio intellisense or some such. emacs slime is gettin' there, all it needs is an even better gui
2014-10-17T03:04:06Z ack006: especially media (images, sound, video?) support in presentations, that'd be great.
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2014-10-17T03:05:13Z ack006: the listener for the factor language system is quite good also
2014-10-17T03:06:19Z beach: ack006: Do you know about this (very long term) project: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf ?
2014-10-17T03:07:14Z ack006: beach: interesting! thanks :-)
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2014-10-17T03:09:05Z beach: ack006: Also this: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html . I am working on updating that page, but it is going to take me a few more weeks.
2014-10-17T03:09:18Z ack006: beach: i find it very sad that the OO (object oriented) split has created such a rift in systems development. the first system i worked with was smalltalk, and i've got the feeling that that had way too much influence, drawing people away from lisp :-(
2014-10-17T03:09:30Z ack006: beach: thanks :-)
2014-10-17T03:09:51Z beach: This is the old version of that page, but it is going to move and it will be updated: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/index.html
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2014-10-17T03:10:13Z ack006: the last i did with smalltalk was look at livelykernel, it looks flashy, but wat an untameable monster it has become :-)
2014-10-17T03:10:18Z ack006: thanks
2014-10-17T03:11:01Z beach: ack006: No point in being sorry about what happened.  It is better to find a way forward instead.
2014-10-17T03:11:03Z ack006: bookmarked :-)
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2014-10-17T03:11:30Z ack006: beach: so true :-) and complaining about it instead of coding isn't going to help for sure
2014-10-17T03:12:09Z beach: ack006: And that is why I am so busy coding. :)
2014-10-17T03:12:27Z ack006: beach: ha, looking forward to your creations :-)
2014-10-17T03:12:46Z ack006: and i'll show you mine, when i'm ready
2014-10-17T03:12:53Z beach: Great!
2014-10-17T03:15:34Z robot-beethoven: naming question: if you have a filtering function (that returns a list containing GOOD values, with BAD values removed), do you name it filter-GOOD, or filter-BAD?
2014-10-17T03:18:37Z ack006: robot-beethoven: why not REMOVE-IF, or REMOVE-IF-NOT? they're already in common lisp, too :-)
2014-10-17T03:18:58Z Bicyclidine: i'd say filter-bad, i guess. probably something for the docstring.
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2014-10-17T03:21:25Z ack006: i always find 'filter' function names somewhat ambiguous, it it the filtrate or the residu which you want to keep? or both?
2014-10-17T03:21:26Z spacebat: according to wikipedia, a filter produces a new data structure containing only those elements for which a predicate returned true
2014-10-17T03:21:46Z spacebat: so um... that's a data point
2014-10-17T03:21:55Z ack006: spacebat: :-)
2014-10-17T03:22:58Z spacebat: need a function named 'residue
2014-10-17T03:23:09Z ack006: gnu make uses filter-out to make the distinction, common lisp uses remove-if/remove-if-not, i like both names
2014-10-17T03:23:54Z spacebat: remove-if* is pretty clear
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2014-10-17T03:27:54Z spacebat: the clhs says the *-if-not functions are deprecated in favour of *-if (complement ...)
2014-10-17T03:27:59Z spacebat: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm#remove-if-not
2014-10-17T03:28:24Z beach: spacebat: They were un-deprecated.
2014-10-17T03:28:48Z spacebat: oh - well they're in a spec that ain't exactly moving
2014-10-17T03:28:59Z beach: Exactly!
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2014-10-17T03:40:35Z beach: Currently I am using the MIR "interpreter" only for testing the AST-to-MIR translator.  For that purpose, it should have a lot of code in it for checking various situations.  I am even thinking of representing unboxed values differently to catch potential errors.
2014-10-17T03:41:10Z beach: However, I am also thinking that it could be used as a basis for an interpreter in an implementation that only has a compiler.
2014-10-17T03:42:00Z beach: In that case, it should instead contain code that helps debugging and such.
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2014-10-17T04:19:33Z beach: Software-engineering question: When I translate MIR to something specific to a particular backend, should I dispatch on two objects, one for the implementation, and one for the OS/processor, or should I have a single object for the two?
2014-10-17T04:23:32Z spacebat: I tend to think dispatching on the two makes more sense
2014-10-17T04:25:51Z beach: Yeah, it's more flexible.  I can then have methods valid for all processors but a particular implementation, and for all implementations on a particular processor.
2014-10-17T04:26:22Z mikaelj: Good morning.
2014-10-17T04:26:35Z ack006: Have a nice day, everyone :-)
2014-10-17T04:26:36Z beach: Hello mikaelj.
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2014-10-17T04:28:27Z beach: mikaelj: How is the thesis going?
2014-10-17T04:34:44Z mikaelj: beach, hi
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2014-10-17T04:35:02Z mikaelj: beach, it's coming along fine - just have (hopefully) small adjustments left.
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2014-10-17T04:35:21Z beach: mikaelj: Excellent!
2014-10-17T04:36:02Z mikaelj: beach, yes! I'm very excited to finally have time for leisure hacking.
2014-10-17T04:36:30Z beach: I know the feeling.
2014-10-17T04:36:32Z mikaelj: beach, how is your CL lib going? I saw you put it up on Github.
2014-10-17T04:37:10Z beach: It is going very well, thank you.
2014-10-17T04:37:35Z beach: ... assuming you are talking about SICL.  I have more than one project on GitHub.
2014-10-17T04:37:50Z mikaelj: I looked at the repo a week ago or so but I didn't see much progress - or did I miss something? (Yes, SICL. Thanks, forgot the name)
2014-10-17T04:38:18Z beach: You must have missed something.
2014-10-17T04:39:21Z beach: Current activity is in "Cleavir" which is a set of implementation-independent tools for compiling Common Lisp.
2014-10-17T04:39:41Z mikaelj: Ah, yes.
2014-10-17T04:40:02Z mikaelj: exciting
2014-10-17T04:41:02Z beach: Thanks!  Did you see my MIR examples? http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
2014-10-17T04:41:08Z mikaelj: Didn't, I'll look.
2014-10-17T04:41:28Z mikaelj: I don't think that MIR page was up when I last looked.)
2014-10-17T04:41:43Z beach: Right.  It's new from a few days back.
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2014-10-17T04:41:48Z jasom: beach: Cleavir is going to be going to be interesting to follow; a few years back one of the SBCL devs theorized that lisp would show a lot more of the N^2 worst-case expansion of SSA than other languages it's been used in.
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2014-10-17T04:42:45Z beach: jasom: Maybe so.  I am thinking of adopting the per-region compilation idea which I think would avoid such problems.
2014-10-17T04:43:06Z jasom: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Implementation/  <-- there's the article if you're interested
2014-10-17T04:43:09Z mikaelj: beach, neat - how do you generate the graphs?
2014-10-17T04:43:22Z beach: mikaelj: I generate input for Graphviz.
2014-10-17T04:43:59Z beach: jasom: Aha.  I have the highest respect for the opinions of pkhuong.
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2014-10-17T04:44:29Z jasom: beach: also N^2 IR size may be not a big deal for real-world code; some analyses that are linear in SSA would be N^2 in other IRs anyway
2014-10-17T04:44:48Z beach: jasom: True.
2014-10-17T04:44:53Z jasom: so it may be fine for modestly sized functions
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2014-10-17T04:45:31Z beach: jasom: Furthermore, with region-based compilation, costly algorithms don't necessarily have to be applied to the entire program.
2014-10-17T04:46:13Z jasom: beach: as long as you can successfully break the regions up.  That does reduce opportunities for optimization across regions though, right?
2014-10-17T04:46:30Z beach: Mostly, yes.
2014-10-17T04:46:41Z jasom: I know SBCL tends to get its best performance with aggressive inlining, so that could be a concern
2014-10-17T04:46:51Z beach: I agree with that.
2014-10-17T04:47:28Z jasom: anyway, I'm glad you're trying it out.  It means I can stop guessing when you're done without having to actually do any work :)
2014-10-17T04:47:55Z beach: Hmm. :)
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2014-10-17T04:50:57Z didi: How do I export all symbols from packageA that I'm currently :using in my packageB?
2014-10-17T04:51:33Z beach: didi: You don't want to do that.  You want to enumerate them manually, so that you have a clean protocol.
2014-10-17T04:52:42Z beach: didi: Otherwise, you will export local variables such as X and Y, and since you are :USEing the package, it will most likely cause a name clash.
2014-10-17T04:52:42Z jasom: didi: as beach said, you don't want to do it.  However, it is fairly easy to accomplish with do-symbols
2014-10-17T04:53:35Z didi: beach: Indeed. But I've been told people write packages that extend the common lisp package for their own use. So that is what I am playing with. (defpackage #:extended-common-lisp (:use #:common-lisp) ...)
2014-10-17T04:54:14Z jasom: didi: oh, then just export all external symbols from common-lisp, right?
2014-10-17T04:54:25Z didi: jasom: Right.
2014-10-17T04:54:28Z beach: didi: OK.  Then loop over the symbols in the CL package.
2014-10-17T04:55:00Z didi: Is it still a bad idea to do so?
2014-10-17T04:55:03Z jasom: (do-external-symbols (sym :common-lisp) (export sym))
2014-10-17T04:55:25Z jasom: didi: no, because it's already a well defined set of symbols that are already exported
2014-10-17T04:55:34Z beach: didi: It's fine.
2014-10-17T04:55:36Z didi: jasom: Cool.
2014-10-17T04:55:41Z didi: Thank you.
2014-10-17T04:55:50Z jasom: oh, and I just typed that code into IRC, I didn't test it or anything
2014-10-17T04:55:59Z jasom: but it's probably fairly close to correct
2014-10-17T04:56:02Z didi: That's fine.
2014-10-17T04:56:29Z beach: didi: I would use read-time evaluation and put it in (:export #.(loop ...)).
2014-10-17T04:56:35Z beach: But it's basically the same idea.
2014-10-17T04:56:49Z didi: beach: Intriguing. I will have to read about it.
2014-10-17T04:57:01Z jasom: didi: I agree with beach
2014-10-17T04:57:27Z beach: That might have to be (:export . #.(loop ...))
2014-10-17T04:58:46Z beach: jasom: I am having doubts about the SSA property of SSA! :)
2014-10-17T04:59:09Z jasom: (:export . #.(let ((syms nil)) (do-external-symbols (sym :common-lisp syms) (push sym syms))))
2014-10-17T04:59:25Z beach: jasom: I know the advantages of SSA, but the fact that there is a single static assignment of each variable doesn't seem to be used very much in optimizations.
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2014-10-17T04:59:42Z jasom: beach: dataflow, value numbering
2014-10-17T04:59:57Z beach: jasom: They only use the fact that no old value is lost.
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2014-10-17T05:00:16Z jasom: beach: which is what SSA is
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2014-10-17T05:00:46Z beach: jasom: Suppose instead of Φ functions you had assignments in the branches leading into the basic block.
2014-10-17T05:00:55Z beach: I think most optimizations would work anyway.
2014-10-17T05:01:37Z beach: Such a notation would have all the advantages of SSA, except for the SSA property itself.
2014-10-17T05:01:39Z jasom: beach: That's problematic for one of dataflow or value numbering (don't recall which off the top of my head) when you have a diamond path
2014-10-17T05:01:58Z jasom: at the bottom of the diamond, you don't know which assignment happened
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2014-10-17T05:02:43Z beach: You don't know that with Φ functions either it seems.
2014-10-17T05:02:52Z beach: Anyway, I don't remember the details now.
2014-10-17T05:03:07Z jasom: You need to never lose old values and have a unique name to refer to them.  That is basically dictating SSA
2014-10-17T05:03:18Z didi: jasom: Thank you.
2014-10-17T05:03:25Z beach: jasom: The notation I am proposing also has that property.
2014-10-17T05:03:52Z beach: jasom: It would still introduce different versions of the variables.
2014-10-17T05:03:57Z jasom: beach: it's probably okay then; this is starting to push the boundaries of what is still in my head (and very quickly will pass what was ever in my head)
2014-10-17T05:04:19Z beach: Yeah, me too! :)
2014-10-17T05:04:34Z beach: I need to go through each current SSA-based optimization technique and figure out what aspects of SSA it uses.
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2014-10-17T05:05:31Z jasom: So you still version each variable, but have anonymous temps in the IR?
2014-10-17T05:05:33Z beach: My hunch is that not a single one of them relies on the fact that there is statically a single assignment.
2014-10-17T05:06:09Z beach: jasom: Think of it as replacing Φ with a real assignment on each incoming arc to the basic block.
2014-10-17T05:06:17Z beach: Otherwise the same.
2014-10-17T05:06:19Z jasom: assignment to what?
2014-10-17T05:06:37Z beach: To the LHS of the Φ that used to be there.
2014-10-17T05:07:17Z jasom: hmmm
2014-10-17T05:07:31Z beach: Instead of x4 <- Φ(x1, x2, x3) there would be x4 <- x1, x4 <- x2, x4 <- x3 on the incoming arcs.
2014-10-17T05:07:48Z jasom: ah, I see the downside!
2014-10-17T05:07:51Z beach: So it's not SSA because there is more than one static assignment to x4.
2014-10-17T05:08:05Z jasom: you need to inspect all incoming arcs to the basic block to build up a data dependency list
2014-10-17T05:08:20Z beach: That's not a big problem.
2014-10-17T05:08:23Z jasom: vs. just phi(x1,x2,x3) where you know it could depend on all 3 of those
2014-10-17T05:08:36Z beach: Yes, I agree.
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2014-10-17T05:08:54Z jasom: it's not a big problem; I bet it will make it harder to implement standard algorithms from the literature tough
2014-10-17T05:09:05Z jasom: since they will all implicitly assume you aren't doing it that way
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2014-10-17T05:09:52Z beach: But Φ also creates problems.  In one famous value numbering algorithm, treating each one as an operation makes it not catch many situations.
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2014-10-17T05:10:15Z jasom: also it means you need information about the suceeding basic block when generating IR for a given basic block
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2014-10-17T05:10:22Z beach: jasom: Oh, I intend to re-implement those algorithms.  So I have to think about what they are doing anyway.
2014-10-17T05:11:18Z beach: jasom: I hear what you say.  And you may well be right.  But I am not willing to accept it until I convince myself.
2014-10-17T05:11:46Z beach: ... which requires going through all current algorithms and understanding what property they assume.
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2014-10-17T05:12:28Z jasom: beach: ah, GVN would now need to trace through all execution paths
2014-10-17T05:12:40Z jasom: instead of just seeing a phi and giving up
2014-10-17T05:12:59Z beach: But giving up is what causes it not to catch certain cases.
2014-10-17T05:13:12Z jasom: GVN is going to be a lot harder to get right if you have multiple assignments to the same value
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2014-10-17T05:13:27Z beach: Again, I hear you, but I am not yet convinced.
2014-10-17T05:13:50Z jasom: consider x1 := y1 at the end of one basic block and x1 := y2 at the end of another; your GVN needs non-local information to know it can't propogate values ouf of x1
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2014-10-17T05:14:41Z beach: What GVN algorithm are you talking about?
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2014-10-17T05:14:59Z beach: The standard one is AWZ.
2014-10-17T05:15:57Z beach: And the AWZ algorithm has been shown to fail exactly because of the existence of Φ-functions.
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2014-10-17T05:16:25Z jasom: Fail as in doesn't propagate a value, not fail as in generates incorrect code
2014-10-17T05:16:27Z beach: Furthermore, I think Kildall's algorithm will have very good performance on SSA.
2014-10-17T05:16:37Z beach: jasom: In that it fails to detect equalities.
2014-10-17T05:17:18Z beach: Check out Rüthing, Knoop, Steffen: Detecting Equalities of Variables: Combining Efficiency with Precision.
2014-10-17T05:17:19Z jasom: right, but you've complicated the implementation of it if you can't consider x1 to be statically a single value
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2014-10-17T05:17:47Z beach: Yes.
2014-10-17T05:18:26Z jasom: As far as I know there isn't a single optimization that's impossible without SSA, just that it simplifies implementing a lot of them.
2014-10-17T05:18:30Z beach: Again, you may very well be right, but the way progress is made is to question what was done in the past.  Most of the time, it turns out it was fine, but sometimes, it turns out that the wrong assumptions where made.
2014-10-17T05:19:23Z beach: jasom: But if simplifying it means it no longer does its job fully, then one has to look into why.
2014-10-17T05:19:46Z jasom: your approach seems to simplify reasoning about individual paths through the code at expense of complicating reasoning globally about the code in many useful ways; I don't know if that's a worthwhile tradeoff
2014-10-17T05:20:00Z beach: I hear you.
2014-10-17T05:20:26Z jasom: and as I said earlier, you're actually doing which gives you the moral high-ground over me
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2014-10-17T05:22:09Z beach: I wouldn't put it like that.  What I say here is not anything I am convinced about.  It is only an idea that (if I have the time) I will investigate thoroughly in order to have a more educated opinion about.
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2014-10-17T05:23:42Z beach: For GVN, Kildall's algorithm has been rejected as being inefficient, but nobody has investigated it on a form like SSA.  I suspect it is going to be fine.  And it is known to catch all possible cases, which is not possible with AWZ.
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2014-10-17T05:27:24Z beach: Oh, and Cleavir will naturally also allow SSA for those implementations who want it, which may include SICL.
2014-10-17T05:27:50Z jasom: your form sounds fairly easy to convert to SSA
2014-10-17T05:28:01Z beach: Yes, very easy.  Both ways.
2014-10-17T05:28:19Z jasom: if you only do redundant assignments on outgong basic-block edges anyway
2014-10-17T05:28:39Z jasom: and they all are pointing to the same successor block
2014-10-17T05:28:49Z beach: That's the idea, yes.
2014-10-17T05:29:30Z beach: Now, that may change as a result of transformations, so the SSA conversion may have to be redone.  But it should be trivial after that, given that all versions of a variable are still preserved.
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2014-10-17T05:53:41Z beach: Oh, and one more thing before I go do something else: if global value numbering is used to eliminate redundant computations, then that will invariably increase register pressure, so it might be the wrong thing to do on modern architecture.  A single spill might cost the equivalent of many redundant computations.
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2014-10-17T05:54:22Z jasom: it could be; I've mostly worked on Power where there is no such thing as register pressure
2014-10-17T05:54:43Z beach: Because it has a lot of registers?
2014-10-17T05:54:48Z jasom: yeah
2014-10-17T05:54:54Z jasom: 32 GPRs
2014-10-17T05:55:20Z beach: Sure.  Not bad.
2014-10-17T05:55:22Z jasom: and that includes the SP and FR but not the PC like on ARM
2014-10-17T05:55:49Z jasom: also the link register and counter register are not in the GPRs either
2014-10-17T05:56:36Z jasom: I always felt like a billionare lighting his cigars with $100 bills with registers on Power (particularly compared to x86)
2014-10-17T05:57:01Z beach: I definitely understand.
2014-10-17T05:57:32Z jasom: I think Sparc is that way too, which explains the "use 4 GPRs for stack alone" design of sbcl
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2014-10-17T05:58:14Z beach: I made the mistake in one compiler I wrote to use the SPARC register windows, though.
2014-10-17T05:58:15Z mikaelj: if you limit yourself to x86_64 you have plenty of registers there as well.
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2014-10-17T05:58:34Z beach: mikaelj: Not enough! :)
2014-10-17T05:58:37Z jasom: mikaelj: still just 1 more than ARM I think.
2014-10-17T05:58:54Z jasom: 16 GPRs but one of the SPRs on amd64 is a GPR on ARM I think
2014-10-17T05:58:59Z jasom: my memory there is vague
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2014-10-17T05:59:29Z beach: Sounds right.
2014-10-17T05:59:49Z jasom: beach: my dad's PhD thesis was trying to get register windows to play well with multitasking
2014-10-17T05:59:59Z beach: Oh, nice!
2014-10-17T06:00:35Z ggole: beach: rematerialisation can help with that problem
2014-10-17T06:00:50Z beach: The SPARC problem?
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2014-10-17T06:01:01Z beach: I no longer think about the SPARC.
2014-10-17T06:01:09Z ggole: No, the spilling caused by longer value lifetimes
2014-10-17T06:01:21Z beach: Oh.
2014-10-17T06:01:45Z beach: ggole: Remind me what rematerialisation means?
2014-10-17T06:02:03Z ggole: When a value is cheap to recompute, use that instead of spilling and loading it.
2014-10-17T06:02:27Z ggole: eg spilling x + 1 when you have x in a register is probably a bad choice
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2014-10-17T06:02:32Z beach: ggole: Right.  Which is the inverse of redundancy elimination.
2014-10-17T06:02:37Z ggole: Indeed.
2014-10-17T06:02:49Z jasom: beach: but you do it during register allocation which is much later stage
2014-10-17T06:03:11Z ggole: But unlike GVN is demand driven: it will only push values back into redundancy when pressure forces it to
2014-10-17T06:03:12Z beach: ah, I see.
2014-10-17T06:03:27Z beach: Nice.
2014-10-17T06:03:43Z ggole: It's also probably desirable to find the redundancies anyway so that things like load elimination can be more precise
2014-10-17T06:03:43Z beach: jasom: You never told me what global value numbering algorithm you were referring to.
2014-10-17T06:03:53Z ggole: I'm not sure how strong that effect is though.
2014-10-17T06:04:14Z beach: ggole: That's a tricky one though.  It might change the semantics.
2014-10-17T06:04:16Z jasom: beach: because I was speaking in generalities.
2014-10-17T06:04:24Z beach: jasom: OK.
2014-10-17T06:04:36Z ggole: Er, what might change the semantics?
2014-10-17T06:04:46Z beach: Eliminating "redundant" loads.
2014-10-17T06:05:04Z ggole: Well, if would change the semantics you can't eliminate them
2014-10-17T06:05:08Z ggole: *if it
2014-10-17T06:05:18Z beach: But that's a tricky one to detect.
2014-10-17T06:05:59Z beach: In the presence of threads, for instance, the result of a load might change independently of the current computation.
2014-10-17T06:06:03Z ggole: Well, yeah: some cases are easy to detect, some very hard.
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2014-10-17T06:07:13Z beach: But I think loads can be cached as long as there is no call to an external function, provided the load is not in a loop.
2014-10-17T06:08:17Z ggole: If the load is invariant in the loop, it should be hoistable
2014-10-17T06:08:24Z ggole: The fun is in telling when it is invariant.
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2014-10-17T06:08:31Z beach: No, because you may use that as a spinlock.
2014-10-17T06:08:51Z ggole: Wouldn't you need explicit atomic accesses for that?
2014-10-17T06:09:00Z ggole: Depending on your memory model, I guess
2014-10-17T06:09:02Z beach: Not to just test a value.
2014-10-17T06:10:15Z ggole: That seems like it would be a data race: but again, depends on your memory model.
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2014-10-17T06:10:41Z beach: It depends on what you intend to do with the result.
2014-10-17T06:11:37Z beach: OK, this has been a very interesting discussion.  But now I must get to work.
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2014-10-17T06:12:11Z jasom: and I must get to bed
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2014-10-17T09:00:03Z wizzo: what does #: mean like in (in-package #:foo)?
2014-10-17T09:00:22Z wizzo: and is there any preference for what should be used? like "foo", :foo, 'foo all seem to work fine too
2014-10-17T09:00:25Z stassats: uninterned symbol
2014-10-17T09:00:30Z wizzo: ahhh ok
2014-10-17T09:00:35Z stassats: don't use strings, for one
2014-10-17T09:01:10Z wizzo: i promise!
2014-10-17T09:01:32Z stassats: anything else is fine, in order of environment pollution: 'foo :foo #:foo
2014-10-17T09:01:50Z stassats: so, for in-package, avoiding (in-package foo) may be a good idea, then, it's hair splitting
2014-10-17T09:01:54Z stassats: i just use (in-package :foo)
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2014-10-17T09:03:00Z wizzo: cool that makes sense to me. i was just use :foo as well but got confused with #: in a snippet
2014-10-17T09:03:02Z wizzo: thank you!
2014-10-17T09:03:27Z stassats: each time you read #:foo, it creates a new one, but for packages it doesn't matter, since it just uses its name
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2014-10-17T09:05:20Z wizzo: in what case could they conflict?
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2014-10-17T09:05:45Z stassats: (in-package foo) may cause a conflict with the package you are executing it in
2014-10-17T09:06:17Z stassats: #: and :foo and "FOO" won't conflict, but "FOO" is a problem with modern mode lisps, where the name of :foo is "foo", not "FOO"
2014-10-17T09:06:54Z wizzo: oh ok
2014-10-17T09:07:24Z wizzo: what is it called when you put a colon in front? i need to learn more how they work exactly
2014-10-17T09:07:36Z stassats: a keyword symbol, it's the same as keyword::foo
2014-10-17T09:07:53Z stassats: clhs keyword
2014-10-17T09:07:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_kwd.htm
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2014-10-17T09:08:45Z wizzo: so it's like a symbol except it get put in its own namespace?
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2014-10-17T09:09:52Z zickzackv: wizzo: also a variable is created with an epinymous value
2014-10-17T09:11:53Z stassats: wizzo: it's put into a standardized package, so that it's easy to share between different packages
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2014-10-17T09:12:17Z stassats: so that when you call a function wiht keywords, you don't have to prefix everything
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2014-10-17T09:14:45Z wizzo: i think that makes sense. at least the keywords seem a lot less magical now
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2014-10-17T09:17:11Z mal_: the only magical thing about them is that on creation, they get assigned themselves as value
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2014-10-17T09:37:24Z pjb: wizzo: don't use symbols for package names.  Packages are named by strings.  When you use (unescaped) symbols you have a level of indirection provided by the lisp reader.  Much worse, the people who advocate it, do so because some implementations have non-standard reading! (so called "modern mode").  A package named "foo" is not the same as a package named "FOO" (Common Lisp is case SENSITIVE).
2014-10-17T09:37:44Z pjb: wizzo: I use :foo in the REPL, but "FOO" in sources.
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2014-10-17T09:38:16Z pjb: wizzo: if you insist on uninterned symbols, then you should escape them: #:|FOO|  and then I really don't see the point vs. "FOO".
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2014-10-17T09:40:49Z wizzo: why use keywords in the repl?
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2014-10-17T09:43:03Z wizzo: also i thought modern mode referred to the case sensitivity. what does it actually mean?
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2014-10-17T09:47:58Z stassats: it refers to the default case of the internal packages, including the CL package
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2014-10-17T11:20:35Z alpert:  /msg NickServ identify Agbe64xx
2014-10-17T11:20:41Z pjb: Oops!
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2014-10-17T11:23:52Z flip214: that's a nice way to trick people into honeypots ... ;)
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2014-10-17T11:24:36Z stassats: flip214: what could you do with that?
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2014-10-17T11:25:29Z flip214: search for an email address, try that password on the matching mail servers, ...
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2014-10-17T11:34:14Z alpert: is there anyway this can be removed?
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2014-10-17T11:35:06Z Shinmera: Removing what from what?
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2014-10-17T11:35:32Z zickzackv: alpert, better set a new password for your nick
2014-10-17T11:35:54Z zickzackv: your current pw will be saved for ever in the logs :-)
2014-10-17T11:35:55Z alpert: alredy did
2014-10-17T11:36:05Z alpert: sad :)
2014-10-17T11:36:11Z zickzackv: at facebook too :-)
2014-10-17T11:36:44Z alpert: really :(
2014-10-17T11:37:15Z alpert: i wrote something first time and ..
2014-10-17T11:37:23Z alpert: damn copy-paste
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2014-10-17T12:02:28Z pjb: alpert: you can't remove it, it's burnt down into my neurons!
2014-10-17T12:03:46Z stassats: that's why you a) don't log in in the channel b) don't manually log in
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2014-10-17T12:09:13Z alpert: i want to die
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2014-10-17T12:29:30Z wasamasa: alpert: always let your client handle this
2014-10-17T12:29:37Z wasamasa: alpert: using SASL should help IIRC
2014-10-17T12:29:46Z stassats: you mean, let your cleints die?
2014-10-17T12:30:19Z stassats: if you're in the mortuary business, i guess, that's a good idea
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2014-10-17T12:34:22Z ovenpasta: hi :)
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2014-10-17T12:36:32Z BitPuffin: hmm
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2014-10-17T12:37:20Z BitPuffin: I'm trying to figure out how to pass flags to cl-liballegro for new display flags
2014-10-17T12:37:29Z BitPuffin: I think it's a bitfield int
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2014-10-17T12:49:07Z flip214: hi, short iterate question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144075
2014-10-17T12:49:25Z flip214: basically, the previous clause croaks about an unbound variable...
2014-10-17T12:49:54Z flip214: iterate-20140713-darcs from quicklisp...
2014-10-17T12:50:42Z BitPuffin: think I figured it out
2014-10-17T12:50:48Z BitPuffin: man I gotta learn cffi :P
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2014-10-17T12:52:37Z flip214: oh, forget that again.
2014-10-17T12:53:39Z stassats: you didn't use the right package, did you?
2014-10-17T12:58:13Z flip214: stassats: right, needed to (:use :iterate)
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2014-10-17T12:58:30Z stassats: that's the price of extensibility
2014-10-17T12:59:53Z H4ns: i don't know iterate.  is "initially" something special?  i thought the advantage of iterate over loop was that it is "lispy" and did not use strange syntax tricks like loop?
2014-10-17T13:00:50Z stassats: (for prv previous current initially nil) is such a lispy thing
2014-10-17T13:00:58Z stassats: i have no idea what it means
2014-10-17T13:01:13Z H4ns: that was what i was looking at, scratching my head.
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2014-10-17T13:01:55Z flip214: that means that prv gets initialized with NIL, and gets the value of CURRENT when the loop steps to the next iteration.
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2014-10-17T13:02:13Z flip214: Ie. PRV will hold the value that CURRENT had in the previous iteration.
2014-10-17T13:02:33Z H4ns: ah, then why would i not use do in the first place?  seems similarly obscure.  :)
2014-10-17T13:02:38Z H4ns: ignore me.  i'm just trolling.
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2014-10-17T13:03:09Z flip214: never mind.
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2014-10-17T13:37:27Z nerdbeard: Can I borrow someone's eyes?  I cannot understand why I get "undefined variable" and "undefined function" warnings in this trivial 5am fixture.  http://pastebin.com/UvsBhQ9M
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2014-10-17T13:38:04Z fe[nl]ix: nerdbeard: body must be &body
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2014-10-17T13:38:13Z nerdbeard: Oh maaaaan
2014-10-17T13:38:29Z nerdbeard: Now I don't undestand why it worked at all
2014-10-17T13:39:00Z fe[nl]ix: it didn't
2014-10-17T13:39:08Z nerdbeard: Nope, that wasn't it.
2014-10-17T13:39:34Z nerdbeard: I still get undefined function: make-drive and now undefined-variable &body
2014-10-17T13:39:41Z nerdbeard: and yes, the test did "
2014-10-17T13:39:45Z nerdbeard: "fail successfully"
2014-10-17T13:39:49Z nerdbeard: (ie it worked)
2014-10-17T13:40:04Z dlowe: nerdbeard: is your tests in a different package than the tested code?
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2014-10-17T13:40:07Z H4ns: nerdbeard: what is "body"?
2014-10-17T13:40:08Z dlowe: *are
2014-10-17T13:40:20Z H4ns: nerdbeard: you're using a variable that you did not define.
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2014-10-17T13:40:23Z nerdbeard: body is a macrolet
2014-10-17T13:40:35Z dlowe: a symbol-macrolet, ITYM
2014-10-17T13:40:59Z nerdbeard: dlowe: Yes, the test code is in :defrag, but those names are found
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2014-10-17T13:41:13Z H4ns: ah, i don't know 5am
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2014-10-17T13:41:16Z dlowe: The test code is in :test-defrag, not :defrag
2014-10-17T13:41:24Z nerdbeard: Excuse me yes
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2014-10-17T13:42:02Z nerdbeard: oh I didn't update package.lisp, that explains make-drive but not body
2014-10-17T13:42:03Z nerdbeard: thanks
2014-10-17T13:42:04Z dlowe: nerdbeard: so try defrag::make-drive instead of the bare
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2014-10-17T13:42:46Z dlowe: def-fixture also does not take an argument list
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2014-10-17T13:43:40Z dlowe: never mind, yes it does
2014-10-17T13:43:43Z nerdbeard: Doesn't compliel without
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2014-10-17T13:44:35Z dlowe: using &body should work. Update your paste?
2014-10-17T13:44:40Z fe[nl]ix: nerdbeard: also, it should be (&body) because it's a macrolet
2014-10-17T13:44:56Z nerdbeard: Another oddity is that it complains that 'hd' is unused.
2014-10-17T13:45:00Z nerdbeard: (in the fixture)
2014-10-17T13:45:21Z dlowe: oh, use (&body) instead of &body
2014-10-17T13:45:31Z dlowe: it's not, in fact, a symbol-macrolet
2014-10-17T13:45:32Z nerdbeard: Using (&body) worked.
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2014-10-17T13:45:47Z dlowe: heh. \slowpoke
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2014-10-17T13:46:04Z nerdbeard: I'm not clear on why it's &body and not body
2014-10-17T13:46:14Z dlowe: because the 5am author said so
2014-10-17T13:46:33Z dlowe: seems like an odd choice to me, too, but hey
2014-10-17T13:46:36Z nerdbeard: I mean given the signature he used.  Probably misreading, clearly I'm not thinking as well as I think I am thinking I am thinking
2014-10-17T13:46:38Z stassats: because they don't want to export their own symbols
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2014-10-17T13:47:39Z dlowe: I think I would have made the symbol an argument to def-fixture
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2014-10-17T13:48:23Z nerdbeard: It's defined: "(defmacro def-fixture (name (&rest args) &body body) ...)" so the name of the variable is 'body' not '&body', right?  Is the & not part of the name when I use it in my fixture?
2014-10-17T13:49:02Z nerdbeard: oh I guess i need to look at the expanded form...
2014-10-17T13:50:25Z nerdbeard: Well when I expand with-fixture the name is clearly &body but I don't understand why.  Oh well, I'll let life be that much more mysterious for now.
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2014-10-17T13:51:36Z stassats: clhs &body
2014-10-17T13:51:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm
2014-10-17T13:51:38Z Xach: IIRC, it's a (confusing) style of template substitution
2014-10-17T13:52:20Z Xach would have preferred a different symbol for sure
2014-10-17T13:52:24Z Grue`: yeah that macro looks badly designed
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2014-10-17T13:53:53Z fe[nl]ix: I find it easy to use and convenient
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2014-10-17T13:54:37Z Xach: I bet.
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2014-10-17T13:54:53Z fe[nl]ix: :)
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2014-10-17T15:17:06Z faheem___: is there some way to print out the definition of a function on the REPL?
2014-10-17T15:17:25Z |3b|: if you didn't previously store it, probably not
2014-10-17T15:17:27Z Xach: faheem___: function-lambda-expression might do it, but it doesn't work in all situations.
2014-10-17T15:17:30Z |3b|: clhs f-l-e
2014-10-17T15:17:30Z specbot: function-lambda-expression: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2014-10-17T15:17:49Z faheem___: well, i've loaded it into the repl.
2014-10-17T15:18:17Z faheem___: but i want to recall it. it is presumably in the image, or whatever
2014-10-17T15:18:36Z faheem___: this works in R, for example
2014-10-17T15:18:47Z |3b|: the compiled forms is probably in the images, source has no reason to be
2014-10-17T15:18:49Z faheem___: python too, I think
2014-10-17T15:18:57Z |3b|: clhs disassemble
2014-10-17T15:18:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
2014-10-17T15:18:59Z faheem___: |3b|: i see
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2014-10-17T15:19:46Z faheem___: |3b|: disassemble doesn't return the original human-readable format, does it?
2014-10-17T15:19:54Z |3b|: most implementations can be configured to store enough information to find the source if you LOADed it from a (possibly COMPILEd) file
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2014-10-17T15:20:08Z |3b|: no, just what the image actually stores
2014-10-17T15:20:28Z |3b|: which is probably either bytecode or machine code
2014-10-17T15:20:33Z faheem___: |3b|: yes, i remember something about that.
2014-10-17T15:20:57Z |3b| isn't sure what disassemble returns for uncompiled functions on implementations that have both
2014-10-17T15:21:17Z faheem___: so, how do you find the source?
2014-10-17T15:21:38Z Shinmera: By implementation-dependant means, if at all.
2014-10-17T15:21:48Z |3b|: implementation specific debug info
2014-10-17T15:22:02Z |3b|: M-. in slime knows about many implementations' debug facilities
2014-10-17T15:22:09Z faheem___: Shinmera, |3b| I see. Not in the standard then.
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2014-10-17T15:22:26Z faheem___: Thanks
2014-10-17T15:22:35Z |3b|: right, memory was expensive when the spec was made, so requiring that sort of thing to be stored wouldn't have been popular
2014-10-17T15:22:50Z faheem___: |3b|: i see.
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2014-10-17T15:23:33Z |3b|: (or they just didn't think about it at the time :)
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2014-10-17T15:26:48Z faheem___: |3b|: the former sounds more likely
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2014-10-17T15:42:17Z drmeister: faheem___: Yeah - my take on it is that lisp was not developed like Smalltalk.  In Smalltalk you have an integrated code browser that has all of the code available for viewing and modification.  Lisp kind of consumes source code and generates compiled code and the source is more or less lost in the process.
2014-10-17T15:42:59Z drmeister: Clasp keeps track of where source code comes from and will be able to do a better job once we get a SLIME interface.
2014-10-17T15:43:36Z Xach: every implementation keeps track of where source code comes from, though.
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2014-10-17T15:44:21Z drmeister: Xach: How do other implementations do it?
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2014-10-17T15:45:24Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-10-17T15:45:28Z Adlai: current implementations track toplevel definitions, but when you have macrolets that expand to definitions, things get inconsistent
2014-10-17T15:46:07Z Xach: drmeister: various ways.
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2014-10-17T15:47:09Z Xach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/LW/html/lw-68.htm is what lispworks provides, for example
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2014-10-17T16:34:58Z ack006: Grrr. writing a Makefile to replace the bulky provisioning tools, to bootstrap Open Genera VLM is scary. My 40-line beauty turned into a monster when trying to cover all corner cases (overwriting the bootloader on my system drive while testing, luckily I could recover :-) )
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2014-10-17T16:36:29Z ack006: If only someone could combine DRAKON (programming language used for Buran, Russian Space Shuttle) with Lisps superior conditions and TAGBODY, we'd have a party.
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2014-10-17T16:37:13Z ack006: but I'm afraid that's YAMP (Yet Another Master-Thesis-sized Project), bummer...
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2014-10-17T16:38:48Z ack006: Most programming languages today are still "1.2 dimensional" (indentation being the remotely meaningful deviation from the y-axis), at least DRAKON was truly 2-dimensional
2014-10-17T16:39:57Z ack006: And so was/is Agilent VEE (graphical programming language, with a Lisp-based data model, yay!)
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2014-10-17T16:47:16Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-10-17T16:47:25Z ack006: Good evening :-)
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2014-10-17T16:48:09Z beach: ack006: How hard can it be to write a new VLM?
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2014-10-17T16:50:07Z ack006: beach: well, as far as I've read, it was mainly a matter of retargetting the compiler distributed with Genera to produce x86-64 code, but some critical parts of the source code appear to be missing.
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2014-10-17T16:50:50Z beach: ack006: But that's different from what I suggested in my question, right?
2014-10-17T16:51:15Z beach: If you retarget the compiler, no VLM is needed if I understand it right?
2014-10-17T16:51:58Z ack006: beach: I'm afraid that the Genera code makes quite a few assumptions about the hardware it's running on
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2014-10-17T16:52:26Z beach: Isn't that the role of the VLM to satisfy those assumptions?
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2014-10-17T16:53:06Z ack006: beach: Real Lisp Machine CPU and peripherals differ quite a bit from current processors. the VLM is essentially a Lisp Machine (hardware) emulator.
2014-10-17T16:53:27Z beach: Right.
2014-10-17T16:53:33Z ack006: So rewriting the VLM implies writing another Lisp Machine emulator...
2014-10-17T16:53:46Z beach: So how hard can it be to write a new VLM?
2014-10-17T16:54:02Z drewc enjoys beach taking the words out his mouth^W^W^W^Woff of his fingers... get to observe and not participate :)
2014-10-17T16:54:39Z nyef: Depends on how much fidelity is required from the emulated hardware.
2014-10-17T16:54:57Z ack006: beach: please have a look at this: Unlambda.com : Home Page : http://www.unlambda.com/
2014-10-17T16:55:09Z drewc: (|Good Morning| :all)
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2014-10-17T16:55:25Z nyef: But, honestly, given that you have the source code, or at least most of it, and you can CHANGE the source code if required...
2014-10-17T16:55:41Z nyef: (Hello beach, drewc.)
2014-10-17T16:55:44Z ack006: ack006: get to know the author, his experience writing emulators, the timestamps on his news release, and the conclusion will probably be: a _LOT_ of work...
2014-10-17T16:56:24Z beach: ack006: Thanks for the link.
2014-10-17T16:56:35Z ack006: beach: you're welcome :-)
2014-10-17T16:57:03Z beach: I'll check it out later.  This is Friday night.  I am tired, and dinner is imminent.
2014-10-17T16:57:17Z ack006: beach: bon appetit! :-)
2014-10-17T16:57:25Z drewc: nyef: Comma not inside a backquote. Line: 1, Column: 12, File-Position: 12
2014-10-17T16:58:04Z nyef: drewc: Which is what you get for trying to interpret ENGLISH as COMMON-LISP.
2014-10-17T16:58:08Z drewc is still waiting on his first cuppa-joe, so his brain is not working correctly, but it READs!
2014-10-17T16:58:22Z beach: ack006: Thanks.  I'll hang around until the call comes.
2014-10-17T16:58:32Z ack006: beach: :-)
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2014-10-17T17:07:17Z ack006: beach: if you manage to get a (samizdat!) copy of VLM for Alpha, compare some strings in it with VLM for Intel and in the Genera source code. You will find that there's a lot missing in the Genera source code.
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2014-10-17T17:09:13Z ack006: beach: My guess is that Brad somehow got hold of the missing source code directly from Symbolics, and he may even have received permission to make a binary release for use by people with a Symbolics license, under the condition that he doesn't release the source code.
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2014-10-17T17:11:07Z drewc is thinking that it is almost dinner time himself .... then realizes that his brain is not quite working in order, he spoke français canadien first, and though in english dinner might be supper, diner is not souper! Coffee time et le dejeuner ... petit on canadien!
2014-10-17T17:11:43Z ack006 smiles at drewc: :-)
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2014-10-17T17:52:52Z nerdbeard: So it seems that you cannot use a 5am:with-fixture within a 5am:def-fixture because one &body shadows the other and you get a stack-consuming infinite recursion when you try to use the outer fixture.  But that's crazy, right?  I'm doing something wrong, obviously?
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2014-10-17T17:55:09Z nerdbeard: I actually suspect that 5am fixtures are not fully baked and I'm just whining because this channel so heartilly endorsed it.  ;-D
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2014-10-17T17:56:36Z Adlai never endorsed 5am fixtures...
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2014-10-17T17:58:22Z nerdbeard: The channel endorsed 5am but not specifically its fixtures.
2014-10-17T17:58:49Z Adlai has a fixture-free fork, but it's rather unmaintained
2014-10-17T17:59:54Z drewc remembers looking at 5am many years ago, and wonders if his memory is correct ..
2014-10-17T18:00:18Z nerdbeard: Do you use anything comparable, drewc?
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2014-10-17T18:02:12Z dlowe: I prefer stefil, myself.
2014-10-17T18:02:25Z nerdbeard: I find it really aggravating that test bodies don't get file location data because of the weird way they are quoted and munged together in lisp-unit and 5am.  I'm spoiled, I'm used to hitting a key for "run all tests" and having my cursor move to the first failing assertion.
2014-10-17T18:02:36Z drewc: nerdbeard: if by "comparable" you mean (defmacro test> (form (form &key ((=> provided-result) nil result-provided?) (test ''eql)) ...) than yes, yes is do.
2014-10-17T18:02:42Z drewc: s/is/I
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2014-10-17T18:03:22Z nerdbeard: But if I did it your way, I wouldn't have spent hours this month fighting with unit testing frameworks.
2014-10-17T18:03:37Z nerdbeard: So, you see.
2014-10-17T18:03:41Z drewc prefers REPL over TDD because of, yes, prefer not to fight.
2014-10-17T18:04:38Z drewc: but my TEST> can expand into /anything/, including 5am and stefil and lisp-test and , as I generally do, ASSERT.
2014-10-17T18:05:22Z drewc: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#testing <--- for example. That file is literate.
2014-10-17T18:05:30Z nerdbeard: Stefil: "Non-intrusive to the normal development process (debugging a failed test is exactly the same experience as debugging your application)"  Ding ding ding!
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2014-10-17T18:06:54Z nerdbeard: I'm interested in literate programming and I'll read that in bed tonight.
2014-10-17T18:07:12Z drewc just prefers writing code over testing code ... perhaps he is a developer and not a tester :P
2014-10-17T18:07:44Z nerdbeard: Shots fired.
2014-10-17T18:07:52Z drewc: I hate a 2 line function with 20 lines of test code ... because I modify things after all... sigh. :D
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2014-10-17T18:09:46Z dlowe: so don't test that function :p
2014-10-17T18:10:11Z nerdbeard: Seems odd to see you promoting literate programming and then complain about dense textual interrelationships and verbosity.
2014-10-17T18:10:17Z dlowe: though I've been sadly surprised at how many errors a two line function can have :/
2014-10-17T18:10:26Z drewc: I was a tester! In 1999-2000 I was employed as a frontline customer service technician... and we had to test the development before it went live ... in early 2000 I was promoted to a developer :)
2014-10-17T18:11:16Z nerdbeard: I'd like to see the intersection of Inform 7 and literate programming.  But I wouldn't like to maintain it.
2014-10-17T18:11:34Z drewc: nerdbeard: where was my complaint exactly? Do not put words in my mouth^Wfingers! OR: what complaint are you registering?
2014-10-17T18:11:54Z nerdbeard: Your complaints were rather passive aggressive.
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2014-10-17T18:12:46Z nerdbeard: Ie, testing is below me, I have underlings for that kind of thing; testing is senseless when the tests are much longer than the thing it tests; or how am I meant to take it?
2014-10-17T18:12:47Z drewc: Amazing ... I cannot have an opinion without it being passive aggressive? OR: How so exactly?
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2014-10-17T18:13:06Z nerdbeard: Of course you can.  I mean that you might not recognize your complaints as such because of how they were presented.
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2014-10-17T18:13:49Z nerdbeard: (Tests are hard to maintain when the thing they test might change)
2014-10-17T18:14:12Z drewc: Interesting ... passive aggressive ... I am not passive and not aggressive.... So I would enjoy knowing more. How is that passive and aggressive?
2014-10-17T18:14:23Z nerdbeard: Two of those three apply to literate programming.  Three if you consider that, "I'm a developer, not a technical writer."
2014-10-17T18:14:39Z nerdbeard: I'm sorry I used a loaded term
2014-10-17T18:14:48Z nerdbeard: It wasn't meant to be offensive
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2014-10-17T18:15:43Z nerdbeard: "drewc just prefers writing code over testing code ... perhaps he is a developer and not a tester :P" is clearly a passive aggressive statement.  I mean no disrespect in saying so and I understand that it was meant in jest and in good spirit.
2014-10-17T18:15:56Z drewc: you have offence as well? It was an interesting defence, no idea what you are defending against. So, thank you for informing me.
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2014-10-17T18:16:49Z drewc: "perhaps" is passive aggressive in your head is it? I will not say such things to you ever again. Sorry about that master! ;)
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2014-10-17T18:17:22Z drewc shuts up now and goes back to writing code. cheers.
2014-10-17T18:17:22Z nerdbeard: Again, it is not criticism, it is an observation, and I am sorry it came across as anything other because I didn't take more care.
2014-10-17T18:17:54Z nerdbeard: I can explain why it is a passive agressive statement if you like but I feel the topic is already tired.
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2014-10-17T18:19:03Z drewc: if you want to /query me to go off on your rant, feel free. Otherwise, I have code develop, test and document. Sorry if that is passive or aggressive.
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2014-10-17T18:19:18Z nerdbeard: It's kind of aggressive, yes.
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2014-10-17T18:19:58Z drewc: Well then, do not /query me. Your choice. So long and thanks for all the fish.
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2014-10-17T18:20:32Z nerdbeard: Appologising for things you aren't really sorry for is classic P/A.  Doesn't reflect on that I like you and appreciate your advice.
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2014-10-17T18:23:47Z drewc: so you ignore my apologies and think I am false .. . and that is not passive aggressive? But my apologies and "perhaps" are? Well, thank you for educating me. Now I know what you think. <--- that was the first time I tried to be passive aggressive.  Now back to CL
2014-10-17T18:24:38Z nerdbeard: You are of course correct.
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2014-10-17T18:42:05Z ack006 just found this very interesting Github search: Trending Common Lisp repositories on GitHub today : https://github.com/trending?l=common-lisp
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2014-10-17T18:42:49Z ack006 thinks this is worth keeping in the log for posterity. The first few projects look very interesting.
2014-10-17T18:43:11Z dlowe: heh. stumpwm is old as dirt
2014-10-17T18:43:35Z Adlai: yes, but dirt isn't going away anytime soon
2014-10-17T18:43:50Z ack006: dlowe: it is :-) but did you have a look at corvus?
2014-10-17T18:44:14Z drewc: dlowe: SBCL is older, non?
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2014-10-17T18:45:09Z Grue`: I wonder if my repo will start trending if I push my commits, its not like there's that much competition
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2014-10-17T18:45:27Z pjb: nerdbeard: I would never endorse not-NIH code.
2014-10-17T18:45:33Z dlowe: corvus is off topic here, but not on ##lisp.
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2014-10-17T18:45:53Z drewc: Grue`: I was thinking the same thing .... and more branches/forks will help as well ...
2014-10-17T18:46:01Z ack006: dlowe:could you please explain?
2014-10-17T18:46:02Z pjb: nerdbeard: even MY code, I would only endorse it for myself, not for you.  caveat programator
2014-10-17T18:46:17Z Grue`: though maybe it only counts stars
2014-10-17T18:46:23Z Grue`: and not number of commits
2014-10-17T18:46:33Z dlowe: ack006: this channel is for Common Lisp, not new lisps, however interesting. I'm not sure why that's listed as a CL repo
2014-10-17T18:47:10Z Grue`: if it's written on CL then why wouldn't it be on-topic
2014-10-17T18:47:19Z Grue`: r/on/in
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2014-10-17T18:48:18Z ack006: dlowe: ah, i see. maybe githubs "a.i." picked it up because "Common Lisp" is mentioned a few times in the features list.
2014-10-17T18:48:41Z dlowe: the stumpwm repo only goes to 2003, when it changed its name from "stump"
2014-10-17T18:48:49Z dlowe: Grue`: it's not
2014-10-17T18:48:51Z ack006: dlowe: but no, it doesn't claim to be Common Lisp, so I'm sorry for bringing it up.
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2014-10-17T18:50:52Z pjb: Test frameworks work at the wrong level of abstraction. That's why they are all dumb and make more problems than they solve.
2014-10-17T18:51:32Z pjb: Tests should be the specifications (written "formally" as sexps).
2014-10-17T18:51:39Z Grue`: i disagree, lisp-unit saved me a lot of time
2014-10-17T18:51:46Z pjb: Then you write a DSL that translates those specifications into runnable tests.
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2014-10-17T18:52:28Z shka: does anybody have account on rosetta code?
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2014-10-17T18:52:47Z pjb: I must have written one function in one language there once.
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2014-10-17T18:53:27Z Grue`: obviously somebody has an account on rosetta code, what kind of question is that?
2014-10-17T18:53:29Z ack006: shka: i've written a (functional-style) python example for the ethiopian multiplication
2014-10-17T18:53:45Z shka: since http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithms/Heapsort#Common_Lisp wtf is this?
2014-10-17T18:53:53Z pjb: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/FizzBuzz#LSE
2014-10-17T18:54:04Z pjb: Do you need an "account"? I thought it was a wiki.
2014-10-17T18:54:20Z Grue`: shka: that looks like Common Lisp code to me
2014-10-17T18:54:44Z shka: yeah, but why they implemented it this way?
2014-10-17T18:55:15Z shka: http://paste.kde.org/pyw9rm50u
2014-10-17T18:55:15Z Grue`: what specifically?
2014-10-17T18:55:18Z ack006: shka: that's the real question.
2014-10-17T18:55:30Z shka: Grue`: compare with my version
2014-10-17T18:55:38Z shka: scheme is also wtf
2014-10-17T18:56:20Z Grue`: your version is clearly not as robust
2014-10-17T18:56:28Z shka: ofc
2014-10-17T18:56:37Z shka: but it is example
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2014-10-17T18:56:59Z Grue`: it's not code-golf
2014-10-17T18:57:06Z ack006: Grue`: :-)
2014-10-17T18:57:12Z Grue`: it doesnt have to be the shortest program
2014-10-17T18:57:35Z shka: yeah, but it almost look as it was written to make impression that cl is complicated and obscure
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2014-10-17T18:58:16Z shka: ofc this code is more usefull in real situations
2014-10-17T18:58:17Z Grue`: it is tho :)
2014-10-17T18:58:43Z shka: try C++
2014-10-17T18:59:00Z pjb: shka: We're not there to give impressions.  Better write correct programs, than showing-off programs that are incorrect.  How many times, people keep providing solutions to programming problems that are plainly incorrect.
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2014-10-17T19:03:04Z shka: pjb: you wrote this, right?
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2014-10-17T19:03:21Z pjb: Not the CL code. The LSE code linked above.
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2014-10-17T19:03:55Z wasamasa: pjb: you're unbanned on #emacs btw
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2014-10-17T19:04:09Z pjb: Thanks :-)
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2014-10-17T19:04:31Z drewc: I much prefer the rosettacode version, and prefer the DEFUN's over LABELS as well.
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2014-10-17T19:04:43Z wasamasa: pjb: the ban only went for like two hours
2014-10-17T19:05:05Z wasamasa: pjb: I didn't know you were the guy who wrote the emacs on linux piece
2014-10-17T19:05:15Z pjb: I came back a day or two later.
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2014-10-17T19:57:54Z francogrex: pjb: you got banned on #emacs. that is a surprise, especially that they are not that uptight there
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2014-10-17T22:12:46Z drmeister: jasom: are you online?
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2014-10-17T22:19:04Z pjb is online.
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2014-10-17T22:23:33Z drewc is online as well
2014-10-17T22:24:24Z drewc: At first I typed "/drewc is online as well" ... but before I hit enter, I saw the syntax error.
2014-10-17T22:25:20Z jasom: drmeister: yes
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2014-10-17T22:43:39Z faheem___ is online too
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2014-10-17T22:53:57Z Adlai is Spartacus!
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2014-10-17T23:06:33Z jdz_: what we're missing is Adlai kicking somebody out with the reason: "This is Spartaaaa!"
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2014-10-17T23:13:37Z akkad: kai su teknon spartaa!
2014-10-17T23:14:04Z akkad: tes geis eini spartaa! rather
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2014-10-17T23:33:32Z nyef: ... Does unicode have characters for Linear B?
2014-10-17T23:34:08Z Bicyclidine: it's essential, after all
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2014-10-17T23:34:29Z Bicyclidine: three blocks, apparently.
2014-10-17T23:34:39Z jasom: U+10000-U+1007f
2014-10-17T23:35:01Z jasom: 𐀃
2014-10-17T23:36:21Z nyef: Hrm. Neat, but doesn't render properly here.
2014-10-17T23:36:31Z nyef: I guess I don't have a font that includes Linear B?
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2014-10-17T23:36:44Z jasom: either you don't have it, or your unicode fallback doesn't know about it
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2014-10-17T23:37:25Z nyef: That's another plausibility, yes.
2014-10-17T23:37:33Z nyef: Oh, for the days of ASCII.
2014-10-17T23:38:01Z jasom: 7 bits should be enough for anyone!
2014-10-17T23:38:17Z nyef: Or for when the "yen" symbol (and not the Kanji for it, either) was the directory separator in some versions of DOS...
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2014-10-17T23:39:53Z johnwalker: what are the differences between atomic-update in sbcl and swap! in clojure?
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2014-10-17T23:42:32Z johnwalker: ahh, it's the same thing.
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2014-10-17T23:49:34Z p_l: nyef: it still is on jpn windows
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2014-10-17T23:50:12Z nyef: p_l: Good to know... I guess.
2014-10-17T23:50:40Z nyef: Not that Windows is DOS-based these days.
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2014-10-17T23:52:08Z p_l: nyef: backward compatibility, the same reason why DOS used backslashes instead of slashes
2014-10-17T23:52:30Z nyef: ... Its VMS heritage?
2014-10-17T23:52:52Z p_l: nyef: no, DOS, loooong before NT
2014-10-17T23:52:59Z nyef: Yes, DOS.
2014-10-17T23:53:07Z p_l: (DOS has zero relation to VMS)
2014-10-17T23:53:15Z nyef: I'm playing on the way that VMS parsed command-line options.
2014-10-17T23:53:33Z p_l: nyef: this reason, except replace VMS with CP/M
2014-10-17T23:53:48Z nyef: I'm aware that there's no "real" VMS heritage for windows prior to NT.
2014-10-17T23:54:00Z nyef: And that 86-QDOS was based on CP/M.
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2014-10-17T23:55:42Z p_l: supposedly DOS 2.0 won over CP/M by introducing features from Unix, like pipes and subdirectories, but unfortunately they needed to replace the slash with backslash due to how command line parsing was done by *3rd party applications*. Ability to use slashes instead however was included ;)
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2014-10-17T23:57:58Z nyef: ... I'm suddenly reminded of Oberon.
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2014-10-17T23:59:38Z nyef: Hunh, neat. An FPGA version as well?
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