2014-10-16T00:00:33Z Bicyclidine: mm, none in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_afa.htm though, shame
2014-10-16T00:00:53Z faheem___: so, and would work?
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2014-10-16T00:01:04Z faheem___: so, AND would work?
2014-10-16T00:01:05Z Bicyclidine: if you want to do multiple things in the same condition, yeah
2014-10-16T00:01:14Z Bicyclidine: maybe i'm not sure what you're asking for
2014-10-16T00:01:42Z faheem___: Bicyclidine: hmm. looking for numbers satisfying both condition A and B.
2014-10-16T00:02:08Z faheem___: (loop for i from 1 to x when (and A B) sum i)?
2014-10-16T00:02:26Z faheem___: never mind, i'll experiement. trying to remember the keywords
2014-10-16T00:02:34Z faheem___: *experiment*
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2014-10-16T00:11:48Z Bike: faheem___: oh, that would just be using and in the condition, yeah.
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2014-10-16T00:31:23Z faheem___: Bike: yes. thanks.
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2014-10-16T00:47:14Z faheem___: i see from the clhs that (if i understand correctly) that equal automatically specialises to the correct thing for particular scenarios. so,is that recommended for general use? e.g. numbers use eql, it seems. so, for number, use equal or eql?
2014-10-16T00:48:08Z faheem___: i see from the CLHS that (if i understand correctly) that EQUAL automatically specialises to the correct thing for particular scenarios. so,is that recommended for general use? e.g. numbers use EQL, it seems. so, for numbers, use EQUAL or EQL?
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2014-10-16T00:55:31Z InvalidCo: faheem___: the correct use depends a lot on the context
2014-10-16T00:55:33Z pillton: Object equality is specific to the problem at hand. I recommend writing a function MY-PROBLEM-OBJECTS-EQUAL-P.
2014-10-16T00:56:05Z InvalidCo: well, not correct, but good use of style
2014-10-16T00:56:20Z InvalidCo: pillton is right
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2014-10-16T00:56:36Z faheem___: well, assume the context is only numbers.
2014-10-16T00:56:39Z InvalidCo: for example, with characters, you COULD use eq
2014-10-16T00:56:48Z InvalidCo: but I usually use char=
2014-10-16T00:56:59Z InvalidCo: because it not only reads as comparing characters
2014-10-16T00:57:05Z pillton: If the problem is only number then use =.
2014-10-16T00:57:14Z InvalidCo: but also enforces the type
2014-10-16T00:57:22Z faheem___: pillton: oh. ok.
2014-10-16T00:57:33Z faheem___: not equal or eql?
2014-10-16T00:57:40Z pillton: Think of yourself 6 months from now. You'll appreciate yourself more.
2014-10-16T00:57:52Z InvalidCo: (equal/eql 0.0 0) => nil
2014-10-16T00:57:56Z InvalidCo: (= 0.0 0) => t
2014-10-16T00:58:01Z pillton: = communicates to the reader that this function works with numbers.
2014-10-16T00:58:30Z InvalidCo: faheem___: most cases, you'll want =
2014-10-16T00:58:42Z faheem___: i see. thank you.
2014-10-16T00:59:00Z InvalidCo: the only exemption would be financial applications, where you want to handle monetary types, which you don't want to be floating point ;)
2014-10-16T00:59:24Z faheem___: InvalidCo: i don't; follow
2014-10-16T00:59:32Z pillton: InvalidCo: = is specialised for monetary types.
2014-10-16T00:59:40Z pillton: s/is/isn't/
2014-10-16T00:59:45Z pillton apologises.
2014-10-16T00:59:47Z InvalidCo: pillton: exactly
2014-10-16T01:00:02Z InvalidCo: faheem___: floating points are not exact
2014-10-16T01:00:07Z faheem___: InvalidCo: true
2014-10-16T01:00:13Z zRecursive: Can '=' be implemented polymorphic ?
2014-10-16T01:00:31Z InvalidCo: monetary values, depending on your application, may go very high
2014-10-16T01:00:41Z InvalidCo: if they do, you lose precision if those are implemented in floating point
2014-10-16T01:00:41Z faheem___: InvalidCo: also true
2014-10-16T01:00:51Z faheem___: InvalidCo: right
2014-10-16T01:01:02Z InvalidCo: the hardware specifics are a bit odd to comprehend at first
2014-10-16T01:01:08Z faheem___: so, bignum?
2014-10-16T01:01:11Z InvalidCo: yes
2014-10-16T01:01:12Z faheem___: or something like that?
2014-10-16T01:01:19Z InvalidCo: that's what you want to use when handling currency
2014-10-16T01:01:23Z faheem___: InvalidCo: ok
2014-10-16T01:01:41Z InvalidCo: bitcoin websites usually boast about their non-floating-point software
2014-10-16T01:01:44Z faheem___: but i guess there is a performance hit
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2014-10-16T01:01:57Z InvalidCo: because there are lots of big numbers involved
2014-10-16T01:02:19Z InvalidCo: and it's bad to have account balances rounded off
2014-10-16T01:02:36Z faheem___: InvalidCo: right
2014-10-16T01:02:47Z zRecursive: (defmacro = (a b) (cond ((charp ...) (numberp ...) ...)) ?
2014-10-16T01:02:50Z InvalidCo: I wouldn't trust a teller who approximated my account for want of faster deposits and withdrawals
2014-10-16T01:03:02Z InvalidCo: zRecursive: you'll have to shadow = if you want to do stuff like that
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2014-10-16T01:03:14Z InvalidCo: and even then, you probably don't want to implement it as a macro
2014-10-16T01:04:02Z zRecursive: how about defun ?
2014-10-16T01:04:09Z InvalidCo: for example, yes
2014-10-16T01:04:42Z InvalidCo: I would probably use clos and defmethods
2014-10-16T01:04:53Z InvalidCo: but your needs may differ
2014-10-16T01:04:54Z zRecursive: then i donot need to care those annoying eql,equal stuffs
2014-10-16T01:05:42Z InvalidCo: do you come from a javascript/php background?
2014-10-16T01:05:59Z zRecursive: Just C
2014-10-16T01:06:04Z InvalidCo: ahhh
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2014-10-16T01:06:54Z InvalidCo: the different equality-operators are there because type mismatch can produce surprising results
2014-10-16T01:07:00Z InvalidCo: it happens more often than you think
2014-10-16T01:07:49Z InvalidCo: C compilers, of course, warn and errorize all your attempts to check for object/whatever equality with ==
2014-10-16T01:07:49Z faheem___: InvalidCo: possibly dumb question, but isn't it possible to have one equality thingy which always does the right thing depending on type?
2014-10-16T01:07:58Z zRecursive: In C, there is only ==/!=, right ?
2014-10-16T01:08:29Z Bike: if you never want to compare compound structures, sure
2014-10-16T01:08:40Z faheem___: Bike: was that a reply to me?
2014-10-16T01:08:48Z Bike: no
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2014-10-16T01:09:08Z InvalidCo: zRecursive: well, I'm reminded of <= & >=
2014-10-16T01:09:15Z zRecursive: sure
2014-10-16T01:09:39Z InvalidCo: but in C, you use, for example, strcmp to compare strings
2014-10-16T01:09:43Z Bike: with a single equality operator, the thing is that sometimes you want two things to compare equal and for other applications you might want those same things to not compare equal.
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2014-10-16T01:10:29Z InvalidCo: consider equal the strcmp of lisp
2014-10-16T01:10:43Z zRecursive: Bike: according to its type
2014-10-16T01:10:49Z InvalidCo: you wouldn't use == to compare strings in c and you wouldn't use eq to compare strings in lisp
2014-10-16T01:11:29Z zRecursive: ok
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2014-10-16T01:12:19Z InvalidCo: faheem___: there is no one way to compare equality
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2014-10-16T01:12:59Z InvalidCo: that is why there are multiple operators
2014-10-16T01:13:13Z InvalidCo: (= -0.0 0.0) => t
2014-10-16T01:13:22Z InvalidCo: (eq -0.0 0.0) => nil
2014-10-16T01:14:09Z InvalidCo: for example, boxes might be equal in some regard if you look at their contents
2014-10-16T01:14:41Z InvalidCo: but if the boxes are two boxes, they would not be the same box
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2014-10-16T01:14:58Z InvalidCo: sometimes you need to know if you are talking about the same box or an identical box
2014-10-16T01:15:50Z faheem___: InvalidCo: fair point.
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2014-10-16T01:21:59Z InvalidCo: this wikipedia article sheds some good light on the deceitful nature of floating point numbers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point
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2014-10-16T01:23:51Z faheem___: yes, floating point sucks
2014-10-16T01:24:17Z InvalidCo: and there's this http://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatConverter/IEEE754.html
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2014-10-16T01:24:47Z InvalidCo: just type in, let's say, 0.1 in there and look at the actual value it is resolves to
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2014-10-16T01:25:43Z InvalidCo: it's just one of the pitfalls of programming
2014-10-16T01:25:57Z Bike: well, that's what you get for denoting binary floating point in decimal, eh.
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2014-10-16T01:26:22Z InvalidCo: :)
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2014-10-16T01:28:19Z faheem___: suppose i have the (invalid) expression (or form?) -> (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (mod j i))
2014-10-16T01:28:51Z faheem___: the idea is to return an expression that looks like ((mod j 1) (mod j 2)...).
2014-10-16T01:28:57Z faheem___: how would one do that?
2014-10-16T01:29:13Z Bike: ^what's invalid about it?
2014-10-16T01:29:18Z Bike: works fine for me, if j is bound.
2014-10-16T01:29:35Z faheem___: Bike: i want j to remain a symbol
2014-10-16T01:29:48Z InvalidCo: you need to quote the list
2014-10-16T01:29:49Z Bike: oh. then  (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect `(mod j ,i))
2014-10-16T01:29:53Z InvalidCo: exactly
2014-10-16T01:29:59Z faheem___: ok
2014-10-16T01:30:05Z faheem___: Bike: thanks
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2014-10-16T01:35:47Z faheem___: InvalidCo: thanks
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2014-10-16T01:36:31Z faheem___: great, that works perfectly
2014-10-16T01:36:50Z faheem___: time to go and re-read quoting.
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2014-10-16T03:06:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-10-16T03:08:53Z phao: midnight here =)
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2014-10-16T03:16:26Z zRecursive: After `git pull`, i am glad to see that ECL has some updates now :)
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2014-10-16T03:20:02Z zRecursive I am curious if ECL can build runnable stumpwm now
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2014-10-16T03:38:02Z beach: I added some more MIR examples here: http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
2014-10-16T03:39:47Z beach: I was hoping I could interpret MIR directly, but I don't see how to implement non-local control transfer without some preprocessing first.
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2014-10-16T03:43:34Z Zhivago: It doesn't support continuations?
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2014-10-16T03:44:33Z beach: Well, the continuations of an instruction are the successor instructions.
2014-10-16T03:45:42Z beach: The problem is that when I translated from AST to MIR, I lost the explicit stack-frame part of the continuation.  This information is still there in MIR, but it is implicit.
2014-10-16T03:46:18Z faheem___: Isn't there a missing bracket in the example here?
2014-10-16T03:46:21Z faheem___: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_destru.htm
2014-10-16T03:46:37Z InvalidCo: beach: are you drawing these graphs by hand or code?
2014-10-16T03:46:48Z faheem___: i'm guessing this is a known issue, if so
2014-10-16T03:46:50Z beach: InvalidCo: Code!!!
2014-10-16T03:47:09Z Bike: faheem___: where?
2014-10-16T03:47:29Z spacebat: faheem___: no
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2014-10-16T03:47:41Z faheem___: never mind, my error
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2014-10-16T03:48:05Z InvalidCo: beach: is it yet available to the general public?
2014-10-16T03:49:00Z beach: InvalidCo: Everything I do is always available.  It might not yet be in a form that it is convenient to use, but it will be I hope.  What part are you referring to?
2014-10-16T03:50:14Z InvalidCo: beach: I'm just wondering about what kind of an algorithm you're using for the positioning of the different parts of the diagrams
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2014-10-16T03:50:29Z beach: InvalidCo: Oh, for that I use Graphviz.
2014-10-16T03:50:46Z InvalidCo: ah, I'll have to look into that
2014-10-16T03:50:49Z beach: I generate a Graphviz program, and then I have Graphviz render it for me.
2014-10-16T03:51:33Z beach: InvalidCo: The point of these examples is not the graph drawing, but the MIR code that the examples generate.
2014-10-16T03:51:51Z Zhivago: Graphviz is in one of those local minima -- too horrible to fix and too hard to replicate.
2014-10-16T03:52:07Z spacebat: what's the benefit of the MIR code over AST - closer to the metal so easier to write a compiler for?
2014-10-16T03:52:08Z beach: Heh!
2014-10-16T03:52:34Z beach: spacebat: Pretty much all known optimization algorithms work on something similar to MIR.
2014-10-16T03:53:35Z InvalidCo: beach: sorry, I'm a bit more interested in the generation of visuals -side of programming ;)
2014-10-16T03:53:39Z beach: spacebat: Common subexpression elimination, partial redundancy elimination, value numbering, strength reduction, invariant code motion, ...
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2014-10-16T03:54:01Z beach: InvalidCo: I found a paper about it.
2014-10-16T03:54:19Z InvalidCo: but I have been also curious about general optimization techniques lately...
2014-10-16T03:54:25Z InvalidCo: beach: you did?
2014-10-16T03:54:29Z beach: http://www.graphviz.org/Documentation/TSE93.pdf
2014-10-16T03:54:40Z beach: 33 pages.  Seems fairly complete.
2014-10-16T03:54:43Z Zhivago: Invalid: Tracing seems to be flavour of the decade.
2014-10-16T03:54:45Z InvalidCo: thanks!
2014-10-16T03:55:59Z faheem___: is there an easy way to pass a list of function values to a function?
2014-10-16T03:56:10Z Bike: list of function values?
2014-10-16T03:56:12Z InvalidCo: faheem___: please elaborate
2014-10-16T03:56:55Z beach: faheem___: (<name-of-function> <list-of-function-values>)
2014-10-16T03:57:40Z faheem___: (defun foo (x y) (+ x y)) then say  (foo 1 2). but suppos you wanted to pass (1 2) to foo instead
2014-10-16T03:57:55Z faheem___: *suppose*.
2014-10-16T03:58:14Z InvalidCo: beach: do you think it would be plausible (fast enough to be worth the wait) to map raw processor instructions to trees alike the ones your graphs depict, and then write a compiler which, instead of requiring human assistance in the writing of deftransforms, it would "figure it out"?
2014-10-16T03:58:16Z beach: clhs apply
2014-10-16T03:58:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2014-10-16T03:58:27Z faheem___: beach: thank you
2014-10-16T03:58:37Z spacebat: faheem___: (let ((args '(1 2))) (apply 'foo args))
2014-10-16T03:59:18Z InvalidCo: shouldn't that be #'foo?
2014-10-16T03:59:37Z beach: InvalidCo: I am afraid I don't understand what you mean.  Sorry!
2014-10-16T03:59:41Z InvalidCo: heh
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2014-10-16T03:59:43Z Bike: 'foo also works, if foo is a global function.
2014-10-16T03:59:45Z spacebat: Ideally, though I think that works
2014-10-16T03:59:47Z InvalidCo: ah
2014-10-16T03:59:51Z spacebat: yes
2014-10-16T03:59:58Z faheem___: so,  (apply 'foo '(1 2))
2014-10-16T04:00:20Z drmeister: Hello beach!  I love the MIR examples - absolutely fantastic!
2014-10-16T04:00:33Z beach: drmeister: Glad you like them!
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2014-10-16T04:00:49Z drmeister: And just as I promised I thought of them while I was filling boxes.
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2014-10-16T04:01:32Z faheem___: spacebat: thanks. R has something that is vaguely similar, but not really
2014-10-16T04:01:35Z drmeister: One question - would it make sense to label the ENTER node with the function name?
2014-10-16T04:01:43Z beach: InvalidCo: What does it mean to "map raw processor instructions to trees"?
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2014-10-16T04:02:04Z beach: drmeister: Not all functions have names, and some have several.
2014-10-16T04:02:18Z InvalidCo: I guess I was trying to convey too much into one line :)
2014-10-16T04:02:29Z InvalidCo: let's say you create the same graphs for processor instructions
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2014-10-16T04:02:38Z beach: OK
2014-10-16T04:03:06Z InvalidCo: and then you use some fuzzy genetic-mapping-thingamabob to compile, straight into machine language
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2014-10-16T04:03:50Z InvalidCo: of course, even the 6502 instructions have lots of side-effects
2014-10-16T04:03:57Z InvalidCo: and even moreso if you consider the ppu hardware
2014-10-16T04:04:06Z beach: InvalidCo: Not sure.  However, the MIR you see gradually gets transformed into a graph of real machine instructions.  No fuzzy stuff required.  Then it is laid out to be sequential with jumps and such.
2014-10-16T04:04:06Z beach:  
2014-10-16T04:04:08Z InvalidCo: which was my original motivation for trying to think this through
2014-10-16T04:04:24Z drmeister: Understood - it plays hell with backtraces.  It's a minor point but in this case the "F" function that is called is the one that descends from ENTER - correct?  http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/example2.png
2014-10-16T04:04:45Z InvalidCo: beach: is it transformed to machine instructions with a pattern-matcher/ruleset specified by a human?
2014-10-16T04:05:11Z beach: InvalidCo: A set of rules, yes.
2014-10-16T04:05:18Z InvalidCo: yes yes
2014-10-16T04:05:52Z InvalidCo: I've longed to write a cycle-counting assembler for a long time
2014-10-16T04:05:57Z beach: drmeister: I think all that stuff will be part of some "source information" that gets transmitted from form to AST to MIR.
2014-10-16T04:05:57Z InvalidCo: first in c, now in lisp
2014-10-16T04:06:12Z InvalidCo: but it still requires a full emulator
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2014-10-16T04:07:44Z InvalidCo: in effect, I think it would amount to a bizarre kind of a compiler
2014-10-16T04:08:30Z InvalidCo: an easy way out (something I did earlier on) was padding with nops
2014-10-16T04:08:36Z InvalidCo: but it's not that impressive a result
2014-10-16T04:08:48Z beach: InvalidCo: All that stuff is pretty standard.  My MIR notation is just a graph version of what you see in most compiler books.  The way it gets translated to machine-specific code is also pretty standard.
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2014-10-16T04:09:02Z drmeister: beach: I envision that this example http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/example2.png  would generate two functions in LLVM-IR - one for the MIR that descends from ENCLOSE and the other that descends from ENTER.  Does that sound consistent with your thinking?
2014-10-16T04:10:15Z beach: drmeister: I don't know the limitations of LLVM-IR, but it sounds plausible to me that it would require two functions.
2014-10-16T04:11:21Z beach: drmeister: You have to be careful though because with non-local control transfer as a result of GO or RETURN-FROM, there can be control arcs from one such "function" to an enclosing one.
2014-10-16T04:11:53Z InvalidCo: beach: you're talking about the stuff before the cycle-counting, right?
2014-10-16T04:12:08Z InvalidCo: I've run across some profiling code in compilers which spoke of that forbidden art
2014-10-16T04:12:16Z drmeister: There are modules that contain globals and functions, functions are made of basic blocks, basic blocks have an incoming and outgoing control flow. Basic blocks are made up of instructions.
2014-10-16T04:12:32Z InvalidCo: but I'm talking about architectures where it would have to be very precise in order to be useful
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2014-10-16T04:12:55Z beach: InvalidCo: I must not be quite awake yet, because I am having a hard time understanding what you are talking about.  Cycle counting could refer to processor cycles or to cycles in a graph.
2014-10-16T04:12:59Z InvalidCo: you know, to switch ppu registers at a specific point on the screen
2014-10-16T04:13:06Z InvalidCo: processor cycles
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2014-10-16T04:13:46Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, it has to be possible to pass control from one such function to an enclosing one.
2014-10-16T04:14:29Z drmeister: beach: I have a FAR-GO and a LOCAL-GO as well as a FAR-RETURN-FROM and LOCAL-RETURN-FROM.  The FAR-XXX constructs are for inter function non-local exits and they use C++ exceptions.   the LOCAL-XXX constructs are for intra-function operation.
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2014-10-16T04:14:49Z drmeister: The local ones just cleanup and jump.
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2014-10-16T04:15:07Z beach: drmeister: Sounds like you have it figured out.
2014-10-16T04:15:15Z drmeister: The FAR-XXX ones unwind the stack, cleanup and are caught in a calling function.
2014-10-16T04:16:22Z beach: drmeister: How do you handle non-local transfer to a point that has "expired"?
2014-10-16T04:16:36Z drmeister: Currently I use FAR-GO and FAR-RETURN-FROM for everything.   I was hoping that MIR would let me optimize and use the LOCAL-GO and LOCAL-RETURN-FROM.  It appears I was on the right track.
2014-10-16T04:16:53Z drmeister: beach: I toggle the power button.
2014-10-16T04:17:01Z beach: As I recall, the Common Lisp HyperSpec says that the consequences are undefined, so you may not have to do anything.  I am just curious.
2014-10-16T04:17:16Z drmeister: I'm kidding - what are you supposed to do in those cases?
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2014-10-16T04:17:41Z beach: drmeister: In SICL I intend to detect it and signal an error.
2014-10-16T04:17:51Z drmeister: Well, there you go - it should be caught as an unhanded exception and throw you into the debugger.
2014-10-16T04:18:08Z beach: drmeister: Right.  But I am curious as to how you do that.
2014-10-16T04:18:25Z drmeister: Let me see.
2014-10-16T04:19:04Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir figures out what control arcs represent non-local transfers.  The other ones turn into jump instructions.
2014-10-16T04:19:28Z beach: ... or nothing at all if the target instruction follows next.
2014-10-16T04:21:51Z drmeister: Is this a good example of a non-local transfer to an expired location?
2014-10-16T04:21:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qy4a7rXS
2014-10-16T04:22:34Z beach: Yes.
2014-10-16T04:22:57Z drmeister: Whew - it didn't go down in flames.
2014-10-16T04:23:41Z drmeister: So the debugger catches it.  This is my debugging debugger - it's not pretty.
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2014-10-16T04:25:15Z drmeister: Ok, I better get to bed.  I need to make progress on a grant proposal on artificial antibodies but thinking about compilers is too much fun.
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2014-10-16T04:25:30Z beach: sleep well.
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2014-10-16T05:09:53Z beach: I have an idea for the MIR "interpreter".  Since it seems MIR can not be interpreted directly (i.e., it needs to be preprocessed) because of non-local control transfers, I might as well preprocess it by turning it into a Common Lisp program.  Each "function" would be a tagbody with a tag for each MIR instruction.  Each instruction would end with a GO.
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2014-10-16T05:11:13Z beach: In fact, the result of that might actually be reasonably fast if the result of the preprocessing step is followed by a call to the native COMPILE.
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2014-10-16T05:13:30Z beach: As King Crimson said: "The more I look at it, the more I like it".
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2014-10-16T05:54:03Z Bike: sounds like forth.
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2014-10-16T05:58:27Z beach: How so?
2014-10-16T05:59:08Z Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threaded_code
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2014-10-16T06:00:04Z beach: I see.  Not quite.  It would be inline code.
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2014-10-16T06:00:57Z beach: Let me see if I can construct an example.
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2014-10-16T06:08:29Z beach: This: http://paste.lisp.org/+335K would be the result of translating this: http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/example4.png
2014-10-16T06:09:07Z Bike: oh.
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2014-10-16T06:10:37Z Grue`: what was the original code?
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2014-10-16T06:16:54Z ggole: Might run into trouble with TCO (if you are aiming to support that, as the tailcall node suggests)
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2014-10-16T06:23:32Z beach: Sorry, I was disconnected.
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2014-10-16T06:24:05Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+335K/1 corrects some mistakes.
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2014-10-16T06:25:06Z beach: Grue`: The original code can be seen here http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
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2014-10-16T06:25:20Z beach: Example 4.
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2014-10-16T06:26:23Z beach: ggole: For now, the sole purpose of the MIR "interpreter" is to debut the AST-to-MIR translator, so I am not concerned about performance.
2014-10-16T06:26:58Z beach: s/debut/debug/
2014-10-16T06:27:24Z beach: OK, time to get to work.  I'll read the logs in case there are more remarks.
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2014-10-16T06:28:30Z Bike: bet you could shorten things by using prog, heh heh.
2014-10-16T06:29:16Z ggole: beach: righto
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2014-10-16T06:35:49Z spacebat: hmm, I'd like to make a setf method of a generic function
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2014-10-16T06:36:15Z spacebat: if that makes sense - a bit confused about syntax for that
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2014-10-16T07:13:38Z spacebat: right, for some reason I was tring to define a setf method inside a defgeneric for the reader
2014-10-16T07:14:14Z spacebat: but of course its a separate generic function
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2014-10-16T08:14:11Z spacebat: is there a slime function I'm not aware of which browses a documentation URL for a package or the system that provided it?
2014-10-16T08:15:03Z dim: Quickdocs still is a separate project, IIUC
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2014-10-16T08:19:01Z shortnbread: in C is the value of EOF -1 and/or \0?
2014-10-16T08:19:09Z InvalidCo: spacebat: I think you can get the CLHS for emacs straight from quicklisp
2014-10-16T08:19:15Z InvalidCo: at least that seems to be what I have
2014-10-16T08:19:26Z InvalidCo: of course, it has only limited use
2014-10-16T08:19:37Z InvalidCo: plus the default shortcut key is l'horrible
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2014-10-16T08:19:56Z InvalidCo: C-c C-d h
2014-10-16T08:20:09Z mal_: shortnbread: can't be \0. that's a valid return for getchar. traditionally it's -1 but any negative number would work
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2014-10-16T08:20:29Z spacebat: I mean things installed via asdf
2014-10-16T08:20:43Z InvalidCo: yep
2014-10-16T08:21:42Z spacebat: C-c C-d h is in my muscle memory but it is a bit of a dance
2014-10-16T08:21:42Z InvalidCo: I don't think anybody has even attempted to make an attempt at a uniform interface for doc urls
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2014-10-16T08:24:01Z InvalidCo: it'd probably be relatively easy to add arbitrary stuff to the ready-made clhs package
2014-10-16T08:24:02Z spacebat: I think it was Xach told me once that though there's a place to put a doc url, few authors do it
2014-10-16T08:24:16Z InvalidCo: but you'd have to deal with not only that
2014-10-16T08:24:37Z InvalidCo: but also if you want to open a specific part of documentation...
2014-10-16T08:24:45Z InvalidCo: ah, cool
2014-10-16T08:25:01Z shortnbread: mal_: thanks
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2014-10-16T08:25:06Z shortnbread: getchar returns EOF, not -1, not -123 if there is no more input from the stream
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2014-10-16T08:28:02Z shortnbread: think i got it now
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2014-10-16T08:29:54Z spacebat: expect I'll be asking more questions here soon as my next dayjob will be common lisp
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2014-10-16T08:59:49Z flip214: drmeister: IIRC you did refactor C sources via CL. was that using LLVM via FFI? do you have example sources?
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2014-10-16T09:11:20Z wasamasa: C++ sources
2014-10-16T09:11:35Z wasamasa: doubt there would be much to refactor for C :P
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2014-10-16T09:27:36Z faheem___: is "let over lamda" considered an advanced textbook? or maybe not a textbook at all?
2014-10-16T09:28:06Z H4ns: faheem___: it is a crap book
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2014-10-16T09:30:52Z wasamasa: flip214: he was using his own CL implementation btw, here's the demonstration you probably have in mind: http://youtu.be/h31pURzgYX8
2014-10-16T09:31:03Z wasamasa: H4ns: I still haven't come across a clear explanation why
2014-10-16T09:31:11Z wasamasa: H4ns: is it because it suggest there's no real need for CLOS?
2014-10-16T09:31:27Z flip214: wasamasa: thanks, but are the sources to _parse_ c available somewhere?
2014-10-16T09:31:42Z H4ns: wasamasa: everybody is entitled to their own opinion.  i find the writing and the code that is exposed in the book terrible.
2014-10-16T09:31:47Z faheem___: H4ns: is that the general opinion?
2014-10-16T09:31:56Z H4ns: faheem___: i am speaking only for myself.
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2014-10-16T09:32:21Z flip214: faheem___: I enjoyed reading it...
2014-10-16T09:32:39Z mal_: faheem___: it's rather an idiosyncratic view of CL development and I wouldn't want to maintain stuff like that.
2014-10-16T09:33:21Z wasamasa: flip214: hmm, there's a good chance it's somewhere in its sources
2014-10-16T09:33:44Z wasamasa: flip214: I suggest you to /join #clasp, speaking directly with drmeister will give you better chances
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2014-10-16T09:36:13Z wasamasa: flip214: or maybe not
2014-10-16T09:36:21Z wasamasa: flip214: "It's not available yet, but it will be.  I'm first using Improve to clean up the C++ code and add semi-precise (precise heap/conservative stack) garbage collection to "Clasp", the Common Lisp compiler/system that I wrote that Improve runs on.. I'm hoping it will be out in a couple of months - and yes, it will be open source.  Watch this channel."
2014-10-16T09:36:34Z wasamasa: flip214: anyways, ask him on his channel for updated news on this
2014-10-16T09:37:22Z flip214: ack, thank you.
2014-10-16T09:38:12Z flip214: mal_: I wouldn't go as far in production, too, but I found it interesting to see such a macro-mostly approach.
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2014-10-16T09:38:31Z H4ns: "interesting"
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2014-10-16T09:39:06Z wasamasa: "Don't you ever use this in your code"
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2014-10-16T09:40:28Z H4ns: i think "on lisp" is in the similar ballpark as let over lambda, but graham writes well, and the code can be read as satire or as prose.
2014-10-16T09:40:37Z mal_: flip214: still a useful guideline is never to use a macro where a function will suffice
2014-10-16T09:41:07Z H4ns: mal_: BUT MACROS ARE MORE AWESOME!
2014-10-16T09:41:39Z Zhivago: Or to use a macro for trivial syntactic sugar for a function call.
2014-10-16T09:41:45Z flip214: mal_: right, and that's what the book clearly expresses, multiple times, in various forms ;)
2014-10-16T09:41:59Z mal_: SURE. FOR MAXIMAL EFFICIENCY, COMBINE READER MACROS, COMPILER MACROS AND REGULAR MACROS AND DO ALL YOUR COMPUTATION AT COMPILE TIME
2014-10-16T09:42:08Z Zhivago: Macros are essentially completely brain-damaged compilers working in the dark.
2014-10-16T09:42:16Z H4ns: :D
2014-10-16T09:42:31Z Zhivago: If they were less terrible compilers, they would be safer to use for more interesting things.
2014-10-16T09:42:38Z Krystof: I wonder whether there's currently a reaction against a whole-hog "build your DSL to solve your problem in" approach in CL
2014-10-16T09:42:45Z mal_: yeah. the CLtL2 environments stuff helps a bit
2014-10-16T09:43:02Z Krystof: maybe because of a tendency to work in larger teams or on larger projects?
2014-10-16T09:43:42Z Zhivago: Well, macros require deeper literacy in the given project.
2014-10-16T09:43:49Z Krystof: or maybe because the DSL/wacky macro approach doesn't compose nicely?
2014-10-16T09:44:08Z flip214: mal_: isn't "doing everything at compile time" what C++ likes to do with templates?
2014-10-16T09:44:11Z mal_: language design is hard. few people are good at it.
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2014-10-16T09:44:36Z Krystof: also, clearly I need to be much more controversial in blog posts if I am to get any feedback
2014-10-16T09:45:03Z flip214: Krystof: "still working on reproducible builds"?
2014-10-16T09:45:07Z mal_: I'm all in favor of a good DSL with proper parsing and error reporting, with correct specification and attention to corner cases. But that's a lot of work.
2014-10-16T09:45:34Z Krystof: yeah
2014-10-16T09:46:05Z Krystof: but more generally also.  I can tell people are reading the posts, or at least downloading the html :)
2014-10-16T09:46:18Z Krystof: but there's little onward discussion
2014-10-16T09:46:32Z Krystof: maybe everyone's too busy
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2014-10-16T09:50:32Z flip214: Krystof: I guess bitwise identical output might be easier by adding another compiler pass ;)
2014-10-16T09:51:14Z faheem___: so, to summarize, the message of "let over lambda" is. compilers are awesome, use them mote?
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2014-10-16T09:51:49Z wasamasa: I dunno, personally I've found the explanation of wrapping lambda with let very useful
2014-10-16T09:52:15Z faheem___: sorry, i mean, macros are useful, use them more
2014-10-16T09:52:57Z wasamasa: except if rather feeling like a thing I'd use in scheme than CL to me
2014-10-16T09:53:37Z faheem___: as i understand it, the sensible thing is to use CL macros if you really need to. otherwise no.
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2014-10-16T09:56:01Z faheem___: Krystof: what blog posts?
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2014-10-16T11:09:54Z Cymew: H4ns: You must be the first one I've heard that does not like On Lisp.
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2014-10-16T11:10:31Z H4ns: Cymew: i did not mean to express that, to the contrary.  i like it, as a satire or as prose.  not as instructional textbook.
2014-10-16T11:10:54Z H4ns: Cymew: i do not like let over lambda.  it is a crappy text around crappy code.
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2014-10-16T11:11:19Z Cymew: Yeah, LoL I've not heard that much about, in general.
2014-10-16T11:11:21Z H4ns: Cymew: in fact, i have heard many people here express that they hate on lisp.
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2014-10-16T11:11:49Z Cymew: I guess it's a question of selected perception on my part
2014-10-16T11:11:56Z H4ns: Cymew: i'm not one of them.  i'm an adult and i can read stuff, keep my distance and still enjoy :)
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2014-10-16T11:12:39Z Cymew: So, you think it's working as satire, as in it's showing you how bad it can be as you go overboard?
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2014-10-16T11:12:54Z Cymew: I agree Graham writes well, and that he has a peculiar lisp style...
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2014-10-16T11:14:17Z stassats: can i join in on the on lisp disliking?
2014-10-16T11:14:24Z H4ns: Cymew: it is working as a joyful read that involves lisp, yes.  i don't think that graham wrote it to show how bad you can be, but i don't care much what his intention was :)
2014-10-16T11:14:28Z H4ns: stassats: there you go
2014-10-16T11:15:20Z stassats: i don't think i ever use most of the things described in on lisp, it may be cute, but not really that practical
2014-10-16T11:15:41Z Cymew: H4ns: I'm not sure I undertand your remark about satire, still.
2014-10-16T11:15:48Z H4ns: stassats: precisely my thinking.
2014-10-16T11:15:53Z Cymew: stassats: That standpoint I understand
2014-10-16T11:16:04Z H4ns: Cymew: i read it as satire, even though graham did not mean it as such
2014-10-16T11:16:42Z Cymew: In light of Stas remark, and you reply I guess I do get your poiunt, H4ns.
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2014-10-16T11:16:57Z Cymew: argh. s/poiunt/point/
2014-10-16T11:17:24Z Cymew: It probably reflect my own use of macros then
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2014-10-16T11:22:46Z Krystof: I think it's hard to write a text that gives an idea of what you _could_ do with Lisp, using only examples that are in good taste and demonstrate what you _should_ do
2014-10-16T11:23:13Z Xach: Krystof: i was thinking yesterday about using ~R in the build process and how implementations might differ in output
2014-10-16T11:23:55Z Krystof: I also think it's sad if we as a language community lose sight of the neat thing that Lisp lets us manipulate the language itself in various controlled or uncontrolled ways
2014-10-16T11:25:13Z Xach: I don't like On Lisp when it has stuff like "tail recursion is the way to write fast common lisp code"
2014-10-16T11:26:04Z Xach: I like PAIP when it says things like "Here are some of the potential performance characteristics of various features, check with your implementation"
2014-10-16T11:26:46Z Krystof: Xach: I thought I remembered that at some point clisp had localized ~R
2014-10-16T11:26:54Z Krystof: but at least I can't make it do something silly now
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2014-10-16T11:27:18Z Krystof: my very first lisp patch was ~R-related, I think
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2014-10-16T11:28:37Z faheem___: What is ~R?
2014-10-16T11:28:53Z Xach: faheem___: format directive to write numbers out as words
2014-10-16T11:29:04Z Xach: err, no
2014-10-16T11:29:14Z Xach: potentially
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2014-10-16T11:29:32Z faheem___: potentially?
2014-10-16T11:29:35Z Krystof: clisp and cmucl differ on (format nil "~R" 101)
2014-10-16T11:29:48Z Xach: faheem___: http://l1sp.org/cl/~R has the scoop
2014-10-16T11:29:57Z faheem___: oh, right, a format thing.
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2014-10-16T11:31:14Z dim: I find that the usual main difference between textbook code and real code is all about error handling and input sanitizing, and I feel like it would be less problematic to include that in short lisp examples
2014-10-16T11:31:34Z Krystof: (I prefer PAIP to On Lisp too, but they are I think different in the philosophy they're aiming for as well: PAIP is, I think, a practical book -- "look what we can achieve with Lisp" -- while On Lisp is, I think, a theory book -- "look what the potential of this language is")
2014-10-16T11:31:37Z dim: because you can always just handler-care or handler-bind and report/log
2014-10-16T11:31:51Z dim: and there's ignore-errors and unwind-protect
2014-10-16T11:32:01Z dim: so you can still write short code with decent error handling
2014-10-16T11:32:05Z H4ns: ignore-errors is there to be avoided.
2014-10-16T11:32:29Z dim: it's useful in cases
2014-10-16T11:32:55Z dim: (ignore-errors (parse-integer date-string-or-integer))
2014-10-16T11:32:59Z H4ns: dim: haha
2014-10-16T11:33:07Z H4ns: dim: that is precisely where it is not useful.
2014-10-16T11:33:09Z stassats: what about junk-allowed t?
2014-10-16T11:33:39Z dim: well in that case either it's a string or an integer, it's not allowed to be a string with some integers in it
2014-10-16T11:33:41Z stassats: ignore-errors is a nice way to make your debugging harder
2014-10-16T11:34:04Z stassats: dim: we have stringp
2014-10-16T11:34:08Z dim: (let ((maybe-integer (ignore-errors (parse-integer date-string-or-integer)))) (cond ... ))
2014-10-16T11:34:12Z dim: I should have pasted that
2014-10-16T11:34:33Z H4ns: dim: i'd reject that code in a review.  "please rewrite it properly, without using ignore-errors"
2014-10-16T11:34:35Z dim: stassats: the date-string-or-integer comes from a CSV file or maybe a SQLite database
2014-10-16T11:34:49Z dim: H4ns: fair enough, how would you rewrite it?
2014-10-16T11:35:07Z H4ns: dim: :junk-allowed and type checks, as stassats says.
2014-10-16T11:35:13Z Krystof: :junk-allowed is exactly wrong
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2014-10-16T11:35:32Z Krystof: or rather, if you use it, you then also have to check the second return value from parse-integer
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2014-10-16T11:35:37Z dim: in my purpose it's as Krystof says, I really want NOT to use :junk-allowed
2014-10-16T11:35:37Z H4ns: Krystof: applied wrong, it is wrong :)
2014-10-16T11:35:47Z Krystof: (parse-integer "2014/01/01" :junk-allowed t) gives you 2014
2014-10-16T11:35:54Z Krystof: which is almost certainly not a the right answer
2014-10-16T11:36:17Z H4ns: dim: ignore-errors is just sloppy programming
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2014-10-16T11:36:27Z Krystof: in this instance, I strongly disagree
2014-10-16T11:37:07Z Krystof: let's see the rewrite
2014-10-16T11:37:09Z H4ns: Krystof: this is a free channel.  we even tolerate people who like let over lambda here.
2014-10-16T11:37:41Z H4ns: Krystof: i'm not in the business of proving anything.  if i see people breaking my debugging with no good reason and i'm the reviewer, i tell them to fix it.
2014-10-16T11:37:58Z dim: full context at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/transforms.lisp#L198
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2014-10-16T11:39:03Z H4ns: dim: so you want to parse a string as integer if it is an integer?  then use :junk-allowed, and look at the second value returned by parse-integer to see if the string was completely consumed.
2014-10-16T11:39:04Z Krystof: ignore-errors is the way to convert between return conventions: a return value to indicate an error, or signalling a condition to indicate an error.  Usually, you want the second one, because it's much less error-prone
2014-10-16T11:40:05Z Krystof: in the case of a standardized function, with an extremely restricted number of ways that it can (is likely to) signal an error, it can be more straightforward to exclude the other ways and then use ignore-errors
2014-10-16T11:40:06Z dim: H4ns: the SQLite "date" type accepts "2014" as a value, which must be converted to "2014-01-01" when sent as a date to PostgreSQL; and the cl-sqlite driver will give me an integer here
2014-10-16T11:40:30Z H4ns: Krystof: that is one way to look at it.  i see error conditions as being used for signalling errors, exclusively.
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2014-10-16T11:41:05Z H4ns: dim: so?
2014-10-16T11:41:08Z dim: ok, but here it's not (ignore-errors (huge (call (stack (of (code))))))
2014-10-16T11:41:21Z dim: it's (ignore-errors (standardized-function))
2014-10-16T11:41:27Z H4ns: dim: it still breaks *break-on-signals*
2014-10-16T11:41:32Z Krystof: no it doesn't
2014-10-16T11:41:35Z H4ns: dim: and that is how it breaks debugging for me
2014-10-16T11:41:43Z H4ns: Krystof: aha?
2014-10-16T11:41:54Z dim has so many things to learn still in the area of debugging
2014-10-16T11:42:04Z Krystof: oh, sorry, you mean that if you set *break-on-signals* you'll get a signal even though it'll be handled immediately?  That's true
2014-10-16T11:42:07Z dim: I didn't know about *break-on-signals*, sounds useful
2014-10-16T11:42:32Z Krystof: (not what I thought you meant by "breaks" *break-on-signals*, but I agree that's something that can happen)
2014-10-16T11:42:38Z H4ns: dim: once you learn to appreciate *break-on-signals*, you begin to hate people who are too lazy to parse their integers properly :)
2014-10-16T11:42:58Z Krystof: I use *break-on-signals* to see all signals (of a particular type), and rely on the debugger to show me unhandled signals
2014-10-16T11:43:13Z Krystof: H4ns: how do you use *break-on-signals*?
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2014-10-16T11:43:25Z Krystof: in a way that (ignore-errors ...) makes you unhappy?
2014-10-16T11:43:32Z dim: H4ns: in that case tho I expect parse-integer failures
2014-10-16T11:43:40Z dim: I'm not sure I get it yet
2014-10-16T11:43:51Z H4ns: Krystof: i use it to intercept signal handling so that i can look at the code position where the condition is signalled, before it is handled.
2014-10-16T11:44:18Z H4ns: Krystof: and if i have code that signals a lot of error conditions in non-exceptional circumstances, it annoys me a lot.
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2014-10-16T11:45:33Z stassats: Krystof: parse-integer returns two values, when i want to parse a string exactly i have ensure-parse-integer
2014-10-16T11:45:35Z dim: oh so you never use conditions as a way to pass information around?
2014-10-16T11:45:43Z stassats: it's (defun ensure-parse-integer (value) (typecase value (string (multiple-value-bind (integer position) (parse-integer value :junk-allowed t) (when (= (length value) position) integer))) (integer value)))
2014-10-16T11:45:47Z H4ns: dim: i never use error conditions for that.
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2014-10-16T11:45:57Z Krystof: H4ns: hm, I think I have two followup questions
2014-10-16T11:46:00Z H4ns: stassats: \o/
2014-10-16T11:46:05Z dim: I'm yet to do it, apart from that very example, but I've been hinted that it's useful
2014-10-16T11:46:25Z Krystof: dim: it is useful, but you might not be using subclasses of error if it's just for communication
2014-10-16T11:46:55Z dim: that's very true, but I guess *break-on-signals* would still activate?
2014-10-16T11:47:05Z Krystof: dim: no, you can give *break-on-signals* a type specifier
2014-10-16T11:47:06Z H4ns: dim: you can (setf *break-on-signals* 'error)
2014-10-16T11:47:20Z dim: stassats: what about perfs of ensure-parse-integer vs ignore-errors? should I even be allowed to think about it?
2014-10-16T11:47:37Z Krystof: H4ns: first one: by default, the debugger comes along at the code position where the condition is signalled, assuming that the condition is not handled -- so what that suggests to me is that you normally have an outer "handle everything" handler or similar?
2014-10-16T11:47:44Z H4ns: dim: do you actually know the cost of signalling and catching conditions?
2014-10-16T11:47:45Z stassats: signalling conditions is slower
2014-10-16T11:48:03Z stassats: you have to cons up the condition object at the least
2014-10-16T11:48:04Z H4ns: Krystof: i often do, like in hunchentoot
2014-10-16T11:48:10Z dim: H4ns: no, hence the question ;-)
2014-10-16T11:48:22Z stassats: then walk the stack to find a handler
2014-10-16T11:48:23Z Krystof: H4ns: it feels like it would be easier to turn off that "handle everything" handler
2014-10-16T11:48:34Z stassats: then walk the stack to find the unwind clean up forms
2014-10-16T11:48:40Z dim: I'm also quite fuzzy on the cost of length, is it O(1) (like stored in the array header or something) or O(N)
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2014-10-16T11:48:51Z stassats: length on arrays is 1
2014-10-16T11:48:54Z stassats: strings is N, easy
2014-10-16T11:48:59Z H4ns: Krystof: not at all - in many cases, it is precisely the error handling that i need to debug when using *break-on-signals*
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2014-10-16T11:49:52Z H4ns: dim: just make a simple measurement to find out what the difference between (ignore-errors (parse-integer ..)) and (ensure-parse-integer ..) is
2014-10-16T11:49:54Z dim is including ensure-parse-integer in pgloader code base
2014-10-16T11:49:54Z Krystof: second one: do you normally have an application/library-specific condition superclass to use as a type-specifier to *break-on-signals*, rather than 'error?
2014-10-16T11:50:16Z Krystof: a hunchentoot-condition mixin, for example
2014-10-16T11:50:17Z H4ns: Krystof: normally, i set it to t, sometimes to error.
2014-10-16T11:50:42Z H4ns: Krystof: as i reserve signalling errors to exceptional circumstances, this approach works pretty well.
2014-10-16T11:50:46Z dim: H4ns: measuring is a thing, understanding is another
2014-10-16T11:50:53Z Krystof: (there being a difference in kind between language errors and application errors)
2014-10-16T11:50:53Z Krystof: anyway
2014-10-16T11:50:59Z H4ns: unless someone is too lazy to parse integers properly :)
2014-10-16T11:51:10Z stassats: one difference, ensure-parse-integer declines to parse "123 "
2014-10-16T11:51:52Z H4ns: Krystof: if there was a 'cl:integer-not-parseable condition class, life would be easier.
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2014-10-16T11:52:52Z stassats: if there were fine conditions for all errors, life would be really easy
2014-10-16T11:53:04Z Zhivago: Then you'd need to handle them ...
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2014-10-16T11:53:21Z john_minetest: hi
2014-10-16T11:53:29Z stassats: Zhivago: if you already do
2014-10-16T11:55:24Z dim is that lazy ;-)
2014-10-16T11:56:32Z dim: still, https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/1bc467f1a480963449f0259dee1c352f186e7a05
2014-10-16T11:57:29Z H4ns: cond?
2014-10-16T11:57:44Z H4ns: ah, code follows, sorry
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2014-10-16T11:59:07Z dim: date representations in MySQL and SQLite are quite awful
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2014-10-16T12:01:28Z stassats: protip (and maybe-integer (= 0 maybe-integer)) => (eql maybe-integer 0)
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2014-10-16T12:12:31Z antoszka: when I make numerous consecutive GET/HEAD requests using Drakma how do I make sure it actually reuses the connection? I have :keepalive t :close nil, but my open connection list grows quickly and I run of filedescriptors (or some other resource limit).
2014-10-16T12:12:50Z stassats: you need to reuse the stream
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2014-10-16T12:14:04Z antoszka: stassats: is that explained in the Drakma manual? or some other tutorial?
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2014-10-16T12:14:11Z stassats: it is
2014-10-16T12:14:54Z antoszka: okay, I'll try to see how that's done, thanks.
2014-10-16T12:15:00Z H4ns: step #1: check out the manual
2014-10-16T12:15:08Z stassats: step #0
2014-10-16T12:16:01Z H4ns: antoszka: anything that is not explained in the drakma manual is not a drakma feature :)
2014-10-16T12:16:07Z antoszka: :)
2014-10-16T12:16:18Z stassats: a bug, then?
2014-10-16T12:16:50Z H4ns: well.  if drakma does something unexpected and it is not explained in the manual, it is a bug.  for some value of "unexpected"
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2014-10-16T12:18:08Z Grue`: no, if it *contradicts* something explained in the manual that's a bug; otherwise it's just undefined behavior
2014-10-16T12:18:08Z antoszka: Yeah, I think once I saw :keepalive/:close I stopped looking further hoping that'd do what I had in mind.
2014-10-16T12:18:22Z antoszka: http://weitz.de/drakma/#ex-reuse-connection ← while the solution is right there
2014-10-16T12:18:22Z stassats: if you find any bugs, you can feed them to hunchentoot
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2014-10-16T12:19:26Z stassats: and you have to close it eventually
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2014-10-16T12:19:41Z antoszka: yep
2014-10-16T12:20:02Z antoszka: it won't close automatically when I leave the block with the stream?
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2014-10-16T12:20:13Z stassats: what block?
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2014-10-16T12:20:52Z antoszka: (let ((stream (http-request …))) <block>)
2014-10-16T12:21:00Z antoszka: this block I meant
2014-10-16T12:21:17Z stassats: this is not a block
2014-10-16T12:21:23Z |3b|: clhs w-o-s
2014-10-16T12:21:24Z specbot: with-open-stream: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_op_1.htm
2014-10-16T12:21:50Z antoszka: ok, cool
2014-10-16T12:21:54Z antoszka: ty
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2014-10-16T12:23:04Z antoszka: but that makes me wonder – there's some background machinery that makes drakma close the TCP connection when I'm done with w-o-s?
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2014-10-16T12:23:46Z stassats: it's not drakma that closes the tcp connection, it's with-open-stream
2014-10-16T12:25:36Z dim: stassats: thanks for the tip, will see about that ;-)
2014-10-16T12:25:41Z antoszka: ok
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2014-10-16T12:26:43Z dim remembered not to use 'eq on numbers, 'eql is another story, yet something else to dive in
2014-10-16T12:27:17Z stassats: eql is fine for integers
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2014-10-16T12:29:03Z Grue`: antoszka: a specialized stream can have a method defined on it, to be executed when it closes
2014-10-16T12:29:12Z antoszka: right
2014-10-16T12:29:20Z antoszka: that's what I was thinking
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2014-10-16T12:30:43Z Grue`: it's not really CL standard though, but most implementations support "Gray streams" extension that allows to do such things
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2014-10-16T12:31:15Z antoszka: thx
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2014-10-16T12:33:10Z H4ns: drakma uses gray streams underneath, but streams must be closed explicitly.  drakma never closes a stream that it has received as :stream argument.
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2014-10-16T12:33:50Z Grue`: yeah but with-open-stream does close it
2014-10-16T12:34:04Z H4ns: that is the purpose of it, true
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2014-10-16T12:49:49Z Xach feels the excitement of another day of Lisp!
2014-10-16T12:49:56Z Xach: darn, no spammer today.
2014-10-16T12:50:28Z H4ns: did you have a surprise for them?
2014-10-16T12:50:29Z john_minetest: Spammers?
2014-10-16T12:50:50Z wasamasa: john_minetest: there is a bot that /query-spams you once you speak up on a channel you're on
2014-10-16T12:51:03Z wasamasa: john_minetest: I've told #freenode about it and some other people, too
2014-10-16T12:51:10Z john_minetest: ah.
2014-10-16T12:51:25Z wasamasa: s/you're on/it's on/
2014-10-16T12:52:28Z john_minetest: Is it somehow possible to compile (common) lisp to .o files and link them with other things later, btw?
2014-10-16T12:53:25Z john_minetest: I found out that there is some (not so easy) way to make executables (ELF) but I couldn't find out how to just make .o files for later linking with some other stuff.
2014-10-16T12:53:40Z Xach: john_minetest: it depends on the implementation.
2014-10-16T12:53:46Z H4ns: john_minetest: ecl can produce .o files.
2014-10-16T12:53:47Z Xach: most implementations make it pretty easy to make executables.
2014-10-16T12:54:09Z Xach: I think one or more of the commercial implementations can produce shared libraries, too.
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2014-10-16T12:54:26Z john_minetest: Ah, ecl compiles to c.
2014-10-16T12:54:31Z john_minetest: Interesting.
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2014-10-16T12:59:55Z pjb: Krystof: it wasn't exactly localized, it used British English.  But it was resolved that the ANSI CL standard specified Usian English.
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2014-10-16T13:22:04Z drmeister: john_minetest: I have developed a new implementation of CL that generates .o files.
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2014-10-16T13:22:44Z drmeister: It also generates shared libraries.
2014-10-16T13:23:21Z drmeister: GitHub.com/drmeister/clasp
2014-10-16T13:23:53Z john_minetest: thx. bookmarked it.
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2014-10-16T13:26:04Z flip214: drmeister: IIRC you did refactor C sources via CL. was that using LLVM via FFI? do you have example sources?
2014-10-16T13:26:27Z flip214: I'd like to get a AST from C files, and play around with that
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2014-10-16T13:29:38Z faheem___: i keep forgetting what AST means
2014-10-16T13:30:04Z stassats: minion: what does AST stand for?
2014-10-16T13:30:05Z minion: Adenofibrosis Shafting Tiger
2014-10-16T13:30:12Z stassats: no wonder you can't remember that
2014-10-16T13:30:14Z faheem___: stassats: no
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2014-10-16T13:33:36Z faheem___: ah, Abstract Syntax Tree.
2014-10-16T13:34:01Z faheem___ wishes the world had less acronyms.
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2014-10-16T13:37:49Z drmeister: flip214: I exposed the clang refactoring library to Clasp. Not through an ffi. The only sample code I have at the moment is a full blown application.
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2014-10-16T13:38:35Z flip214: drmeister: okay...
2014-10-16T13:39:00Z flip214: I'd have hoped to just load something via quicklisp into sbcl, and run from there.
2014-10-16T13:39:28Z drmeister: flip214: the clang AST is extremely complicated. I exposed the clang astmatcher library to clasp to deal with it.
2014-10-16T13:39:33Z john_minetest: faheem___: Acronyms are useful. I don't want to say GNU is not unix/Linux all the time.
2014-10-16T13:40:02Z joga: recursive acronyms would take quite a while to spell out
2014-10-16T13:40:13Z john_minetest: Also not "Common LISt Processing" :P
2014-10-16T13:40:33Z stassats: except that it isn't an acronym
2014-10-16T13:40:54Z john_minetest: Yeah, actually "GNU is not Unix" is also short for "GNU is not unix is not Unix"
2014-10-16T13:41:02Z drmeister: flip214: what you are asking for took me three years of hard work to deliver and it cannot work inside of SBCL. It is inside of clasp.
2014-10-16T13:42:55Z drmeister: In the coming months I will post example code. At the moment other things are demanding my attention.
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2014-10-16T13:46:29Z malice: Hello, is there a function that would allow me to list all slots of class?
2014-10-16T13:46:36Z malice: (returning list of all slots of class)
2014-10-16T13:46:54Z malice: so that instead of writing all slots of class by myself in with-slots, I could use this function
2014-10-16T13:47:26Z Krystof: there are a couple of problems with what you are asking for
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2014-10-16T13:47:53Z malice: Krystof, why?
2014-10-16T13:48:05Z pjb: malice: you can use the MOP to get the list of all slots of a class.
2014-10-16T13:48:15Z pjb: malice: because compilation-time vs. run-time.
2014-10-16T13:48:19Z Krystof: the main one is that in principle you don't know what the class of the object your code receives is until run-time
2014-10-16T13:48:31Z Krystof: but the code transformation in with-slots must happen at compile-time
2014-10-16T13:48:38Z malice: pjb, I am sorry for my ignorance, but I'm completly new to this: what is MOP?
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2014-10-16T13:49:11Z pjb: Meta Object Protocol.
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2014-10-16T13:49:21Z malice: Krystof, I'm not sure, but I am certain that the list of class instances will have instances of the only class I have defined. If it's otherwise then whole application is broken anyway
2014-10-16T13:49:31Z malice: pjb, looking it up
2014-10-16T13:49:32Z Krystof: malice: if you are completely new to this, don't try to rewrite the language yet
2014-10-16T13:49:45Z Krystof: malice: what about if someone later subclasses your class, with some extra slots?
2014-10-16T13:50:03Z pjb: malice: if you want to process the slots of an instance at run-time, you won't be using with-slots at all.
2014-10-16T13:50:04Z Krystof: should that suddenly turn a variable reference into a slot reference?
2014-10-16T13:50:17Z Krystof: what about if someone later redefines your class, removing some slots
2014-10-16T13:50:25Z Krystof: should a slot reference suddenly turn into a variable reference?
2014-10-16T13:50:35Z pjb: Which can occur at run-time! (The removing or adding of slots).
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2014-10-16T13:51:44Z malice: Yes, but I don't consider this option - the application is simple, its aim is to provide easy way to find some of abilities that characters can use in RPG
2014-10-16T13:51:47Z Krystof: malice: with-slots is a very simple, practically textual transformation of code
2014-10-16T13:52:03Z Krystof: what you propose is a very complicated transformation of code, in general
2014-10-16T13:52:08Z flip214: drmeister: thank you.
2014-10-16T13:52:24Z Krystof: if you have highly specific knowledge, just use it: you know the list of slot names, so embed it somewhere and use it
2014-10-16T13:52:32Z malice: okay
2014-10-16T13:52:39Z malice: Just wanted to know if there's a simpler way
2014-10-16T13:52:49Z malice: Thought there would be something like that, but turns out I was a bit mistaken
2014-10-16T13:52:52Z malice: Thanks anyway :)
2014-10-16T13:52:55Z Grue`: seems like your OOP design is just bad
2014-10-16T13:52:57Z Krystof: (defmacro with-my-instance-slots (&body body) `(with-slots ((a a) ...) ,@body))
2014-10-16T13:53:04Z Grue`: there shouldnt be a different slot for each ability
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2014-10-16T13:58:53Z john_minetest: TIL: PHP and XNA are recursive acronyms.
2014-10-16T13:59:22Z joga: what does php stand for?
2014-10-16T13:59:46Z joga: PHP's Hopeless Poo?
2014-10-16T13:59:47Z Grue`: malice: i.e. instead of a slot for each skill use one slot "skills" which contains mapping from skill keyword to the value of skill; then you can easily get all skills the character has
2014-10-16T14:00:02Z john_minetest: PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor and XNA's Not Acronymed
2014-10-16T14:00:56Z malice: Grue`, where are you from?
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2014-10-16T14:02:00Z Grue`: does it matter?
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2014-10-16T14:02:33Z malice: Actually not, you misunderstood what I mean
2014-10-16T14:02:46Z malice: Skill is a class which contains slots: name, action, description, etc.
2014-10-16T14:02:54Z malice: But I have a global list of objects of this class
2014-10-16T14:03:15Z malice: And it's not intended to be used in game, but to find certain slots in this database
2014-10-16T14:03:24Z malice: These are skills from paper RPG game
2014-10-16T14:03:25Z malice: :)
2014-10-16T14:03:30Z malice: Unless I misunderstood you
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2014-10-16T14:03:32Z malice: Then I'm sorry
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2014-10-16T14:04:02Z Hache_: well
2014-10-16T14:04:06Z Grue`: no, I'm just sensing that you're trying to use objects as a mapping
2014-10-16T14:04:22Z Grue`: and something like hash-table or alist is a better fit for a mapping
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2014-10-16T14:04:26Z Hache_: dont you already know the slots then?
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2014-10-16T14:08:59Z malice: I know slots, just wanted to save a bit of writing :P
2014-10-16T14:09:03Z malice: Grue`, what do you mean?
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2014-10-16T14:09:28Z malice: The class Skill stores all things that skill has - name, requirements, etc.
2014-10-16T14:09:39Z malice: So that you can search with name, or requirements, or both
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2014-10-16T14:41:27Z amirjamil90: hi
2014-10-16T14:41:46Z amirjamil90: Anyone there ??
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2014-10-16T16:03:26Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2014-10-16T16:09:34Z beach: OK, so I implemented the MIR interpreter as I hinted before, by translating MIR to Common Lisp and then compiling it.  Here is the automatically generated code from the example I made up before: http://paste.lisp.org/+335K/2
2014-10-16T16:10:24Z fe[nl]ix: hej beach :)
2014-10-16T16:10:41Z ggole: beach: random question, how do you rewrite nodes in your IR?
2014-10-16T16:11:03Z beach: ggole: Rewrite?
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2014-10-16T16:11:11Z ggole: Replace, if you prefer.
2014-10-16T16:11:26Z beach: I don't think I do.
2014-10-16T16:11:45Z beach: Maybe I am dense today; tired after a lot of work.
2014-10-16T16:12:09Z ggole: So how do you do transformations? Eg, you have x <- 1 + 2, you want it to be x <- 3.
2014-10-16T16:12:21Z beach: Oh, I see.
2014-10-16T16:12:47Z beach: Well the notation is a graph of standard objects.  I have primitives for adding and removing instructions.
2014-10-16T16:14:05Z ggole: Hrm, ok.
2014-10-16T16:14:21Z beach: ggole: Is there a problem?
2014-10-16T16:14:38Z ggole: Not at all, just not quite what I expected.
2014-10-16T16:14:58Z beach: I am curious.  What *did* you expect?
2014-10-16T16:16:00Z ggole: A rewrite or replace operation that mutates either the node object or the graph to make a different (equivalent) instruction appear in place of an existing one.
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2014-10-16T16:17:10Z beach: I see.  Well, there is currently no transformation that determines whether two instructions are equivalent.
2014-10-16T16:17:32Z beach: The transformation that replaces 1 + 2 by 3 is called "constant propagation".
2014-10-16T16:17:51Z beach: But it is more general than replacing an instruction with an equivalent one.
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2014-10-16T16:18:39Z ggole: Well, there are many ways of finding various equivalences: I was mostly curious about how you would proceed when you discovered one.
2014-10-16T16:19:24Z beach: It depends.  In the simplest case, I can do a CHANGE-CLASS on the instruction.
2014-10-16T16:19:28Z beach: But it is rarely that simple.
2014-10-16T16:19:51Z beach: Some instructions may have to be removed, and others may have to be added.
2014-10-16T16:20:33Z beach: In the case of 1 + 2, the ADD-INSTRUCTION is removed.
2014-10-16T16:20:54Z ggole: Right, you have the various edges back and forth to erase.
2014-10-16T16:21:22Z beach: Yes, I maintain both successors and predecessors.
2014-10-16T16:21:58Z ggole: IRs seem to vary widely in how they approach this.
2014-10-16T16:22:08Z beach: I can imagine.
2014-10-16T16:22:46Z beach: If things get complicated, I can replace instructions by NOP, and then I have a special pass that removes NOP instructions.
2014-10-16T16:23:28Z ggole: A lot of SSA IRs only maintain use-def edges, which makes rewriting utterly trivial but obliges you to regenerate def-use edges for algorithms that need them.
2014-10-16T16:24:48Z drmeister: beach: So this code made the round-trip from CL -> MIR -> CL?
2014-10-16T16:24:54Z beach: I see.  Well, initially I had imagined maintaining lots of information, but then it is hard to maintain, so I now tend to keep less information and recompute instead.
2014-10-16T16:25:05Z beach: drmeister: Exactly.
2014-10-16T16:25:22Z ggole: Indeed, you can end up with a ton of pointers flying around.
2014-10-16T16:25:33Z beach: Yep.
2014-10-16T16:25:55Z beach: Like I said the other day, I even imagine not keeping basic block.
2014-10-16T16:25:56Z drmeister: Why TAGBODY with no tags or go's - they seem kinda... empty.
2014-10-16T16:26:12Z beach: drmeister: No loops or IFs in that example.
2014-10-16T16:28:08Z drmeister: I see.  I'll talk to you later then - it's time to bring home the bacon and teach ester hydrolysis.
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2014-10-16T16:28:51Z beach: Good luck.
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2014-10-16T16:30:19Z beach: Here is an example with IF in it: http://paste.lisp.org/+335S
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2014-10-16T16:31:45Z stassats: drmeister: can you teach bacon hydrolysis?
2014-10-16T16:31:52Z beach: ggole: In terms of def-use and use-def, at some point, for each datum, I compute the set of instructions that read it, and the set of instructions that write it.
2014-10-16T16:32:24Z beach: ggole: But that information quickly gets out of date, so I recompute it.
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2014-10-16T16:35:31Z ggole: Right, that would be annoying.
2014-10-16T16:36:35Z beach: I also have no idea what the performance will be.  I intend to instrument the various transformations with "meters", so that I can figure out where the bottlenecks are.
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2014-10-16T16:39:24Z beach: OK, I have to go cook dinner now.  I might be back later.  I'll read the logs if anyone has remarks or questions.
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2014-10-16T17:01:59Z shka: ave tux™
2014-10-16T17:02:23Z shka: what is the best option for OFFLINE lisp manuals?
2014-10-16T17:02:42Z shka: idaelly used from the emacs
2014-10-16T17:02:42Z stassats: clhs, that's it
2014-10-16T17:03:03Z shka: great, but how to download it and brows from emacs?
2014-10-16T17:03:24Z stassats: that you can figure out yourself
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2014-10-16T17:13:56Z z20141016: @shka there are plenty of google resources that explain that
2014-10-16T17:14:17Z z20141016: shka: which one are you using at the moment and where is it failing ?
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2014-10-16T17:18:14Z shka: i use none, i'm trying to find the best one
2014-10-16T17:18:22Z Grue`: ahh it's alive http://i.imgur.com/50YybOS.png
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2014-10-16T17:19:56Z Grue`: shka: have you tried http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CommonLispHyperspec
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2014-10-16T17:23:46Z Grue`: also cl:apropos is a great offline manual :)
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2014-10-16T17:33:41Z z20141016: @shka
2014-10-16T17:33:50Z z20141016: were you able to get it working
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2014-10-16T17:34:11Z shka: z20141016: sounds nice
2014-10-16T17:34:16Z shka: i will give it a try
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2014-10-16T17:42:45Z akkad: clhs should totally have an org-mode + org-drill file.... consider it done
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2014-10-16T17:59:58Z drmeister: stassats: it's the other way around. I would love
2014-10-16T18:00:25Z drmeister: To learn the secret of hydrolysis from bacon. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_ester_hydrolysis_with_pig-liver_esterase
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2014-10-16T18:19:35Z beach: drmeister: Did you see my example with IF in it?
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2014-10-16T18:27:43Z drmeister: Yes, I see it now.
2014-10-16T18:29:09Z beach: Initially, I considered generating a GO after each instruction, and putting a tag before each one.
2014-10-16T18:29:32Z beach: But I thought I might need to understand the code by inspecting it, so I decided to do a little bit of layout.
2014-10-16T18:30:13Z beach: But as you can see, each branching instruction ends with two GOs; I don't bother eliminating one of them if the tag is before the next instruction.
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2014-10-16T18:32:35Z drmeister: I understand.
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2014-10-16T18:33:34Z beach: Time to go hang out with my (admittedly small) family. Talk later.
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2014-10-16T18:48:26Z shka: i should remap my keyboard
2014-10-16T18:48:36Z shka: so ( will be under alt f
2014-10-16T18:48:42Z shka: and ) under alt j
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2014-10-16T20:10:16Z Perkol: Which datatypes stuff created with ' (e.g 'foo '1 '(foo bar)) have? Is datatype determined automatically?
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2014-10-16T20:12:31Z Grue`: Perkol: try (type-of 'foo)
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2014-10-16T20:15:04Z Perkol: So it is determined autmatically?
2014-10-16T20:16:20Z Grue`: basically yes
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2014-10-16T20:49:00Z jasom: Perkol: the datatype is determined no differently than without quote really; it's just not evaluated.
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2014-10-16T23:09:03Z pillton: Morning all.
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2014-10-16T23:22:45Z Xach: hullo
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2014-10-16T23:24:25Z spacebat: hi
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2014-10-16T23:27:54Z spacebat: I've written some experiments that use different systems that I wind up quickloading at the top of the file so that I can just load the file with slime and know that the dependencies are installed
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2014-10-16T23:29:02Z spacebat: is the proper approach to put this info into an .asd file and use at the top of a mysystem/bootstrap.lisp or similar
2014-10-16T23:29:35Z spacebat: use asdf I mean, once I know that quicklisp has installed those systems, so that asdf can get on with loading them
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2014-10-16T23:33:31Z pillton: That is what I do.
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2014-10-16T23:44:38Z drewc: spacebat: as long as you define "use asdf" as "Make sure the ASDF I am using is loaded in the lisp environment I am using", and not "(defpackage :foo (:use :asdf) ...)", then yes... ASDF is used to define systems, and some systems rely on other systems. If your system is relying on ASDF systems, best to use it as well.
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2014-10-16T23:58:20Z spacebat: so the bootstrap.lisp or whatever entry point I decide on, would have something like (progn (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'mysystem) (mysystem:start))
2014-10-16T23:59:58Z pillton: Something like this should suffice: http://hastebin.com/qemecekaro.