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2014-10-15T02:46:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-10-15T02:47:03Z ack006: beach: good morning :-)
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2014-10-15T02:50:42Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-10-15T03:10:21Z pillton: Good morning beach!
2014-10-15T03:10:47Z stacksmith_: G'morn
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2014-10-15T03:12:15Z stacksmith_: What's the right way to import a generic function from another package?
2014-10-15T03:12:59Z H4ns: you cannot import functions, but you can use a symbol from another package.
2014-10-15T03:13:01Z beach: stacksmith_: You are confused.  Packages contain symbols, not generic functions.
2014-10-15T03:13:19Z stacksmith_: Sorry, bad language.
2014-10-15T03:13:32Z beach: Recently, I have started using full package prefixes.
2014-10-15T03:13:50Z H4ns: i've been doing that for a few years now as well
2014-10-15T03:14:59Z White_Flame: I tend to do that as well, plus add package nicknames for brevity when I feel like it
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2014-10-15T03:15:33Z stacksmith_: Mostly sensible, but I have a package that extends the functionality of another package.  I need to have accessors work on classes in either package...
2014-10-15T03:15:51Z beach: stacksmith_: Otherwise, you can use the IMPORT-FROM option of DEFPACKAGE.
2014-10-15T03:16:08Z stacksmith_: That sounds right.
2014-10-15T03:16:27Z White_Flame: stacksmith_: dispatch has to do with the types & values of the parameters, not the package of the generic function's symbol
2014-10-15T03:16:30Z H4ns: stacksmith_: there is nothing wrong with qualifying names from the used package in the using package
2014-10-15T03:16:52Z H4ns: stacksmith_: (defmethod used:foo ((blah blah)) ...)
2014-10-15T03:17:46Z White_Flame: you just add more functionality to the original package:name
2014-10-15T03:17:46Z stacksmith_: It's just convenience: (name-of something) should work regardless of where something is interned
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2014-10-15T03:18:12Z H4ns: stacksmith_: i tend to disagree, but use import-from if you desire
2014-10-15T03:19:14Z stacksmith_: H4ns, as it stands, there are two 'name-of symbols in two packages, and they don't like each other for some reason
2014-10-15T03:19:30Z H4ns: stacksmith_: you need to correctly qualify them.
2014-10-15T03:19:52Z White_Flame: or refactor such that one properly adds more methods to the generic function defined in the other, so they're both the same symbol
2014-10-15T03:19:54Z H4ns: a::foo and b::foo are two different symbols by default.
2014-10-15T03:20:51Z stacksmith_: H4ns, that is just foolish.  The whole point of generic dispatch is to do the right thing.  Having two name-of functions is just moronic.
2014-10-15T03:21:08Z H4ns: stacksmith_: i lost my interest in helping.
2014-10-15T03:21:42Z stacksmith_: H4ns, no offense intended.  However, I am afraid I am not clear about what I was trying to do.
2014-10-15T03:21:43Z White_Flame: stacksmith_:  so is the code with two name-of symbols not yours?
2014-10-15T03:22:34Z stacksmith_: All mine.  I have a perfectly good generic function in package A, used by package B.
2014-10-15T03:22:47Z White_Flame: so what's the problem?
2014-10-15T03:23:00Z White_Flame: that also doesn't sound like two instances of name-of
2014-10-15T03:23:09Z stacksmith_: I need to add some specialized versions in package B.  But SBCL defines a new generic in package B
2014-10-15T03:23:35Z White_Flame: if you do that, then it's not the same generic function
2014-10-15T03:23:49Z stacksmith_: Exactly.  I want to import it into package B.
2014-10-15T03:23:58Z White_Flame: remember, packages are a runtime data structure, not a block of source code
2014-10-15T03:24:18Z White_Flame: no, you want to add functionality to A:generic-function
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2014-10-15T03:24:34Z stacksmith_: Yes.
2014-10-15T03:24:55Z White_Flame: so don't define B::same-name-as-some-function-from-package-A
2014-10-15T03:25:11Z White_Flame: add another (defmethod a:name (...)...)
2014-10-15T03:25:33Z stacksmith_: Package A deals with FPGA resources.  Package B deals with user-defined resources.  Both kinds have names.  I want a single name-of method.
2014-10-15T03:26:01Z White_Flame: the single name-of lives in A
2014-10-15T03:26:13Z White_Flame: package B adds new cases to A:name-of
2014-10-15T03:26:24Z nyef: Why aren't A and B both declared to :USE C, which defines NAME-OF ?
2014-10-15T03:26:32Z White_Flame: well, the source code related to package B extends A:name-of to handle stuff introduced from B
2014-10-15T03:26:49Z stacksmith_: You got it, brother.
2014-10-15T03:27:05Z White_Flame: nyef: right, I was going to get there, too.  If this is an API that's beyond the specifics of two individual and separate packages, then it's a separate abstraction
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2014-10-15T03:27:51Z White_Flame: but if B 'extends' A, then I see no problem with the canonical name-of living in A
2014-10-15T03:28:12Z nyef: Well, you've said that A was "FPGA resources" and B was "user-defined resources", which suggests that you want a common substrate which is simply "resources".
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2014-10-15T03:28:22Z White_Flame: ie, if A can run fine without B being loaded, but B depends on A
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2014-10-15T03:28:56Z stacksmith_: B is there to make a superset of A, an FPGA full of user circuits AND built-in resources.
2014-10-15T03:29:26Z White_Flame: and a user of that would pull in package names from A and B
2014-10-15T03:29:37Z White_Flame: erm, public symbol names from packages A and B
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2014-10-15T03:30:49Z White_Flame: or, you make package AWESOME, which is a convenience function reexporting from AWESOME-FPGA, AWESOME-USER-RESOURCES, and other AWESOME-*
2014-10-15T03:31:01Z White_Flame: s/function/package/.  Sheesh, I need to go to bed
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2014-10-15T03:31:36Z stacksmith_: So my issue is simple, I just need to make some specialized methods in B using the generic from A...
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2014-10-15T03:32:00Z White_Flame: what is wrong with (defmethod a:name-of (...) ...) ?
2014-10-15T03:32:20Z White_Flame: or :use'ing A and (defmethod name-of (...) ...) ?
2014-10-15T03:34:45Z zyaku: Are there any projects underway to make a modernized Common Lisp? Something, perhaps, with a slightly updated standard library, a more accessible package system, or a single namespace?
2014-10-15T03:34:56Z beach: zyaku: No.
2014-10-15T03:35:03Z H4ns: zyaku: Yes.
2014-10-15T03:35:05Z H4ns: :D
2014-10-15T03:35:06Z beach: :)
2014-10-15T03:35:18Z H4ns: futile attempts, of course.
2014-10-15T03:35:29Z pillton: zyaku: What is the real problem?
2014-10-15T03:35:47Z beach: zyaku: Why do you care?
2014-10-15T03:35:57Z White_Flame: There are 2 approaches:  Libraries which extend and/or modify CL from within, and implementations of new variants.  Both exist
2014-10-15T03:36:55Z zyaku: beach: Just wondering. I feel like a few minor updates to the language could make a big difference. Of course, I can do most of it with macros and implementation-specific features, but it’s always nice to have a formal spec.
2014-10-15T03:36:59Z drmeister_: beach: Hello.
2014-10-15T03:37:00Z White_Flame: There are a ton of portable libraries for exposing threads, networking, etc, for the "updated standard library" problem, so that's pretty much solved
2014-10-15T03:37:35Z drmeister_: Can someone ban bumcaa - I got a message from them immediately after posting.
2014-10-15T03:37:36Z H4ns: zyaku: there is nothing "minor" that can be "fixed" to make common lisp "better" really.
2014-10-15T03:37:49Z White_Flame: If you've used other languages with first-class symbols, then you'll know the package system isn't all that different
2014-10-15T03:38:22Z White_Flame: but yes, that can be a stumbling block during learnign
2014-10-15T03:38:39Z H4ns: zyaku: everthing in common lisp has subject to lengthy debates between highly qualified lisp hackers.  it is not possible to "extend" or "improve" this work when you don't have a plan to involve the same amount of skill and expertise in your "improvements".
2014-10-15T03:39:05Z H4ns: zyaku: that is why modernization attempts are futile.  they need to live on the side, as library projects.
2014-10-15T03:39:12Z drmeister_: beach: Re: that MIR graph example that you posted yesterday - could you post an example of a function defined with DEFUN?
2014-10-15T03:39:18Z stacksmith_: How does Lisp handle generic function symbols, along with all the specialized function names that have the same name?
2014-10-15T03:39:31Z zyaku: White_Flame: The main issue I have is the duality of systems and packages, which strikes me as a bit counteruititive, but it’s not a big problem
2014-10-15T03:39:33Z H4ns: stacksmith_: you need to learn how the package system works.  now.
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2014-10-15T03:39:48Z stacksmith_: H4ns, no kidding.
2014-10-15T03:40:06Z nyef: stacksmith_: Sounds like you need to read up on the package system and on how generic functions and methods work.
2014-10-15T03:40:08Z zyaku: H4ns: Those are all fair points. I probably just need to use more CL to understand the specific reasons for most of those decisions.
2014-10-15T03:40:14Z drmeister_: beach: There's no hurry.  I'd just like to see and start thinking about what a complete function looks like.
2014-10-15T03:40:18Z H4ns: zyaku: correct.  that's the spirit.
2014-10-15T03:40:39Z stacksmith_: nyef, any pointers?
2014-10-15T03:40:43Z Bike: tl;dr symbols are just the names of generic functions, nothing more, and methods aren't directly accessible from just a symbol anyway
2014-10-15T03:40:45Z beach: drmeister_: It just starts with an instruction ENTER.  Otherwise it's the same.
2014-10-15T03:41:02Z beach: drmeister_: Let me see if I have something easy...
2014-10-15T03:41:04Z nyef: stacksmith_: For the object stuff, CLHS, AMOP, and Keene.
2014-10-15T03:41:13Z drmeister_: And the enter has arguments as inputs?
2014-10-15T03:41:18Z White_Flame: zyaku:  If you know java, there's really not much complaining about jar files being named differently than package/class paths, which is the same "issue" in lisp with system names vs package names
2014-10-15T03:41:26Z stacksmith_: nyef, thank you.
2014-10-15T03:41:55Z beach: drmeister_: No, it has a lambda list and outputs corresponding to arguments.
2014-10-15T03:42:44Z drmeister_: My hard drive was wiped out yesterday (self-inflicted) and I just restored everything - I'm looking for your Cleavir PDF.
2014-10-15T03:42:51Z H4ns: gat's package pdf has a bad reputation, but i'm posting a link to it anyways as it _may_ help regardless: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2014-10-15T03:43:01Z zyaku: White_Flame: I hadn’t thought of it like that. Would you also describe it as being like the difference between cabal’s packages and Haskell’s modules?
2014-10-15T03:43:03Z beach: drmeister_: It might not be entirely up to date.
2014-10-15T03:43:31Z beach: drmeister_: Every required parameter has an output.  Every optional and every key has two outputs: one for the value and one for the supplied-p parameter.
2014-10-15T03:43:32Z White_Flame: zyaku: I don't know Haskell well enough to know
2014-10-15T03:44:33Z White_Flame: zyaku: but a "system" doesn't really exist in CL's core, only packages
2014-10-15T03:44:35Z beach: drmeister_: http://metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf
2014-10-15T03:44:39Z H4ns: zyaku: the package system is actually very simple, which is why it is often misunderstood because people think that it does more than what it actually does.  it is just a container system for symbols, nothing more than that.
2014-10-15T03:44:47Z beach: drmeister_: Again, it may not be entirely up to date.
2014-10-15T03:45:19Z stacksmith_: Gat's package paper confused me even more...  I am really struggling with CLOS classes defined in different packages with what should be same accessors.  I haven't come across this particular issue anywhere yet.
2014-10-15T03:45:20Z H4ns: zyaku: people are also often confused because they don't have the concept of a symbol in their minds.
2014-10-15T03:45:39Z drmeister_: That's the stuff I was looking for - how the argument passing works.
2014-10-15T03:45:44Z H4ns: stacksmith_: classes are not defined in packages.  only symbols are.
2014-10-15T03:46:18Z stacksmith_: Yeah, symbols representing the classes.
2014-10-15T03:46:19Z beach: stacksmith_: If you insist on saying that classes and functions are defined in packages, you are still confused.  Packages are just about names.
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2014-10-15T03:46:33Z H4ns: stacksmith_: symbols do not represent classes.  they name them.
2014-10-15T03:47:05Z beach: drmeister_: Cleavir can not decide how your system does argument passing.
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2014-10-15T03:47:24Z stacksmith_: Symbols naming the classes and the accessor functions, as well as symbols naming generic functions and specialized functions.
2014-10-15T03:47:52Z beach: drmeister_: That is why at this level there is just an ENTER instruction that outputs the values after argument parsing.
2014-10-15T03:48:18Z zyaku: White_Flame and H4ns: Wow, I’d like to thank you guys. I came here with my one silly question, and now I’ve got a much better understanding of Common Lisp as a programming system.
2014-10-15T03:48:54Z drmeister_: beach: I appreciate that Cleavir doesn't enforce a calling convention.  I was speaking in more general terms.
2014-10-15T03:49:03Z beach: drmeister_: Ah, OK.
2014-10-15T03:49:29Z beach: drmeister_: Well then, you can assume that the ENTER instruction has an output for each required, and two for each optional/key.
2014-10-15T03:49:54Z White_Flame: zyaku: good to hear
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2014-10-15T03:50:26Z beach: drmeister_: The body of the function has to test the supplied-p parameter and implement initialization for omitted optional/key parameters.
2014-10-15T03:50:55Z drmeister_: So you always provide a supplied-p argument for each optional and keyword parameter?  You don't use a lambda list for the function?
2014-10-15T03:51:12Z drmeister_: Supplied-p arguments are optional.
2014-10-15T03:51:22Z beach: drmeister_: I know.
2014-10-15T03:51:25Z drmeister_: As you know - I'm sure.
2014-10-15T03:51:35Z beach: drmeister_: The ENTER instruction always supplies them though.
2014-10-15T03:52:33Z beach: drmeister_: This is the method I found to expose the initforms so that they are part of the code and can be optimized with the rest.
2014-10-15T03:53:00Z beach: drmeister_: Otherwise, the initforms would have to be one big ball of mud inside the enter instruction.
2014-10-15T03:53:41Z drmeister_: Please excuse me if I say something obvious that we are both completely aware of (like "supplied-p arguments are optional") I say it to convey what I'm thinking rather than because I believe that you did not know that.  Sometimes my thinking is wrong and I am happy when people correct me.
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2014-10-15T03:54:02Z beach: drmeister_: Don't worry about that.  I understand.
2014-10-15T03:54:22Z beach: drmeister_: With this method, the enter instruction does little more than just parse the argument list.
2014-10-15T03:54:34Z drmeister_: Good point, the initforms generate their own MIR within the function - correct?
2014-10-15T03:54:41Z beach: Exactly.
2014-10-15T03:55:04Z beach: And for that, that code needs to know whether to compute the initform or not.
2014-10-15T03:55:07Z drmeister_: Perfect, that's exactly what I do.  I'm sure that's what everyone does.
2014-10-15T03:55:15Z beach: Hence the mandatory supplied-p.
2014-10-15T03:55:21Z drmeister_: Good point.
2014-10-15T03:55:46Z drmeister_: What about the &rest argument?  What do you do with that?
2014-10-15T03:56:02Z beach: I haven't done that one yet.
2014-10-15T03:56:18Z beach: But I am sure it has to be supplied by the enter instruction.
2014-10-15T03:56:39Z beach: So building it is part of the big ball of mud.
2014-10-15T03:57:43Z beach: So to summarize: the enter instruction has one output for each required, one for rest, and two for each optional and key.
2014-10-15T03:57:48Z drmeister_: Yeah.  The Clasp lambda-list processing in its compiler includes some of the most complicated compiler code I wrote.
2014-10-15T03:58:05Z drmeister_: And &aux?
2014-10-15T03:58:16Z beach: That's not part of the enter instruction at all.
2014-10-15T03:58:22Z drmeister_: Got it.
2014-10-15T03:58:29Z beach: The code is part of the body of the function.
2014-10-15T03:59:02Z drmeister_: What about &allow-other-keys?
2014-10-15T03:59:36Z drmeister_: I guess that one doesn't need to be exposed.
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2014-10-15T03:59:46Z beach: Right.
2014-10-15T03:59:58Z beach: It's in the lambda list, though.
2014-10-15T04:00:14Z nyef: What about &REST lists?
2014-10-15T04:00:21Z nyef: Oh, you already answered that.
2014-10-15T04:00:24Z beach: :)
2014-10-15T04:00:55Z drmeister_: How does MIR represent which bindings need to be on the heap and which can be on the stack?
2014-10-15T04:01:38Z beach: drmeister_: After escape analysis, lexical variables are divided into "dynamic" and "indefinite".
2014-10-15T04:01:53Z drmeister_: That's the $65,536 question for me.
2014-10-15T04:02:02Z beach: But I don't think they have those names right now, in case you look at the code.
2014-10-15T04:02:32Z beach: That code is already implemented.  I just need to move it from SICL to Cleavir and update it a bit.
2014-10-15T04:03:06Z drmeister_: "dynamic" on the heap and "indefinite" on the stack?    What does "indefinite" mean in this context?
2014-10-15T04:03:15Z beach: The other way around.
2014-10-15T04:03:22Z beach: dynamic as in "dynamic extent"
2014-10-15T04:03:25Z drmeister_: There you go.
2014-10-15T04:03:33Z beach: indefinite as in "indefinite extent".
2014-10-15T04:04:16Z beach: drmeister_: Check the glossary of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2014-10-15T04:06:05Z drmeister_: Ok, I get "indefinite"   What does "dynamic" mean in this context then?  I thought dynamic variables were special variables?  I'm have trouble with words, they are very slippery in my head - I'm better with pictures and concepts.
2014-10-15T04:06:29Z beach: "dynamic extent" means "It can be allocated on the stack", basically.
2014-10-15T04:06:56Z drmeister_: Got it.  On the stack any stack frame below it could reference it.
2014-10-15T04:07:17Z beach: Right.
2014-10-15T04:07:32Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec uses different words than I did, but that's basically what it is.
2014-10-15T04:07:36Z drmeister_: Lexical variables can't be seen from lower stack frames but dynamic variables can.
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2014-10-15T04:07:51Z beach: No, two different uses of "dynamic"
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2014-10-15T04:08:02Z beach: "dynamic variables" and "dynamic extent"
2014-10-15T04:08:25Z drmeister_: Ho boy.
2014-10-15T04:08:43Z beach: "dynamic extent" of a binding means that it can not survive the end of the form that introduces it.
2014-10-15T04:08:52Z drmeister_: This is why I have trouble with words.
2014-10-15T04:09:02Z beach: All words?
2014-10-15T04:09:44Z drmeister_: Most of them :-)  Let's not dwell on that.  I shouldn't make excuses for my failings, it only makes them stronger.
2014-10-15T04:09:44Z beach: drmeister_: You need to try to get used to it.  In computing we reuse words for all kinds of purposes.
2014-10-15T04:10:02Z beach: drmeister_: You should be glad that the Common Lisp HyperSpec is fairly consistent about it.
2014-10-15T04:10:48Z beach: Gah, I can't remember how to make specbot look in the glossarey.
2014-10-15T04:10:51Z beach: glossary.
2014-10-15T04:11:26Z drmeister_: Maybe I never really understood them to begin with even though I implemented them properly.
2014-10-15T04:11:50Z beach: drmeister_: Did you check the glossary for "extent", "indefinite extent", and "dynamic extent"?
2014-10-15T04:13:25Z beach: drmeister_: I have problems with words too, because I mix them up between the 5 languages I know, 3 of which I use on a daily basis.
2014-10-15T04:13:28Z drmeister_: Ok, I think I get it.
2014-10-15T04:14:31Z beach: Nowadays, I always need the spell checker on. :(
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2014-10-15T04:15:23Z drmeister_: dynamic extent - the extent of the binding starts and stops at definite points.  As in (let ((*x* 1)) ...)   The binding lifetime starts at (*x* 1) and ends at the end of ...)
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2014-10-15T04:16:11Z drmeister_: Scope refers to a section of code.
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2014-10-15T04:17:03Z beach: More importantly, in (let ((x ...)) (f (lambda () ... x ...))), even though the binding of x is lexical, it has indefinite extent.
2014-10-15T04:17:25Z Zhivago: Well, the _lexical_ in _lexical scope_ refers to a section of code.
2014-10-15T04:17:52Z drmeister_: beach: And that's because the lambda can escape.
2014-10-15T04:18:08Z beach: drmeister_: Here it does; I pass it as an argument to F.
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2014-10-15T04:18:16Z nyef: Unless F inlines or expands to something which causes the LAMBDA to be declared D-X or otherwise be found to not escape.
2014-10-15T04:18:38Z beach: nyef: Right.  I simplified a bit.
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2014-10-15T04:21:14Z drmeister_: beach: The &rest argument is just going to be generated by ENTER like an extra required argument wouldn't it?
2014-10-15T04:21:27Z beach: Yes.
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2014-10-15T04:24:39Z drmeister_: Actually it's a little trickier because the &optional arguments are processed first before the &rest.
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2014-10-15T04:25:33Z drmeister_: Well, not really tricky I guess.
2014-10-15T04:25:43Z beach: Yeah, I don't think so.
2014-10-15T04:25:53Z drmeister_: When I implement Cleavir I'm going to change my calling convention.
2014-10-15T04:26:05Z drmeister_: Currently I use C++ varargs.
2014-10-15T04:26:10Z beach: I see.
2014-10-15T04:26:16Z nyef: Fair warning: Changing calling conventions can be painful.
2014-10-15T04:26:38Z drmeister_: nyef: Don't I know it.  I've done it twice already.
2014-10-15T04:26:53Z drmeister_: Third time will be the charm.
2014-10-15T04:26:55Z beach: In SICL/x86-64 I use something very close to the standard one for the processor.
2014-10-15T04:27:24Z drmeister_: pkhuong suggested passing arguments in the thread local multiple-value return array.
2014-10-15T04:27:33Z drmeister_: I like that idea.
2014-10-15T04:28:07Z drmeister_: There's a certain symmetry to it that is appealing.
2014-10-15T04:28:27Z beach: You should pass arguments in registers on platforms that have enough registers.
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2014-10-15T04:28:32Z drmeister_: I do.
2014-10-15T04:28:44Z drmeister_: I currently pass the first three arguments in registers.
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2014-10-15T04:28:50Z beach: OK.
2014-10-15T04:29:05Z drmeister_: I'll probably switch to four when I change the calling convention.
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2014-10-15T04:32:33Z drmeister_: Ok, well, I better get to bed - I have to start packing glassware tomorrow for the big lab move in a couple of weeks.
2014-10-15T04:33:03Z drmeister_: beach: If you get to a point where you generate one of those MIR graphs for a full function can you send it to me?
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2014-10-15T04:33:48Z drmeister_: Oh and add a couple of return values to it like:  (defun add-sub (x y) (values (+ x y) (- x y)))
2014-10-15T04:34:44Z drmeister_: Then my subconscious mind can start working on it while I'm packing boxes.  (sigh)
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2014-10-15T04:36:43Z gtasso`: any facebook library out there ?
2014-10-15T04:37:05Z beach: drmeister_: OK, will do.
2014-10-15T04:37:49Z nyef: drmeister_: Sleep well, and good luck with the move.
2014-10-15T04:38:14Z nyef: For that matter, I should get some shut-eye myself.
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2014-10-15T05:37:42Z beach: minion: memo for drmeister_: I started a collection of MIR examples: http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
2014-10-15T05:37:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister_ when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-10-15T05:40:44Z flip214_: beach: what is MIR, apart from the abandoned russian space station?
2014-10-15T05:42:53Z pjb: stacksmith_: Accessors are methods.  Accessor functions are the generic functions of those methods.  methods are attached to the generic function.  In the defmethod form, you don't give the method name (which doesn't exist), but the generic function name.
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2014-10-15T05:44:08Z beach: flip214_: Medium-level Intermediate Representation.
2014-10-15T05:44:15Z flip214_: thanks
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2014-10-15T05:44:47Z beach: flip214_: I got the name from Muchnick's book on advanced compiler construction.
2014-10-15T05:45:13Z pjb: stacksmith_: see add-method, find-method, remove-method
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2014-10-15T05:46:06Z pjb: stacksmith_: and of course: (defgeneric gfname (x) (:method ((x thing)) 'thing) (:method ((x thang)) 'thang))
2014-10-15T05:46:25Z pjb: stacksmith_: defmethod is a macro that just let you call add-method more conveniently.
2014-10-15T05:58:05Z beach: flip214_: I added the explanation of the abbreviation (and one more example): http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
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2014-10-15T06:04:40Z flip214_: beach: TBH, I don't know what the arrow colors and labels mean in the pictures...
2014-10-15T06:04:51Z flip214_: but I'm not the target population, so just ignore me
2014-10-15T06:05:00Z beach: Good point.  I'll add that information.
2014-10-15T06:07:14Z stacksmith_: pjb, thanks.
2014-10-15T06:07:33Z Bike: blue arrow is like variables or something. red arrow is being used as the argument to a function. rectangular boxes are functions. <- is the assignment function. numbers are argument positions. thick black arrows are control flow, with the number indicating which exit.
2014-10-15T06:07:37Z Bike: i think.
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2014-10-15T06:16:16Z beach: Added that information: http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
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2014-10-15T06:18:38Z beach: Fixed some extra items in the list too.
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2014-10-15T06:24:01Z flip214_: beach: now, if the pictures would be visible in a right-hand iframe, so that the description and the picture would be visible at the same time ...
2014-10-15T06:26:40Z flip214_: beach: and if you put the _destination_ of a <- *above* the <- (eg. via direction=back) the graphs would get smaller, and perhaps easier to read, too.
2014-10-15T06:27:37Z flip214_: although I can see the logic of an arrow pointing _into_ the storage location, too.
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2014-10-15T06:43:47Z beach: flip214_: Thanks.  I'll consider those suggestions when I have time to spend on making this output (meant only for debugging) nicer.  Right now I have to concentrate on the underlying logic.
2014-10-15T06:43:55Z beach: OK, time to get to work.
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2014-10-15T08:39:44Z francogrex: Hi, can someone give some advice on this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144045 I would like to acess the memory of another program from lisp using cffi
2014-10-15T08:40:06Z francogrex: is there a way to attach another process like gdb does?
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2014-10-15T08:40:28Z francogrex: the way I do it now is not the right way obviously
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2014-10-15T08:42:13Z H4ns: you are doing it wrong, but we've told you.
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2014-10-15T08:44:28Z moore33: francogrex: You can use ptrace, like gdb does, but you probably want to use shared memory between the programs... or communicate some other way.
2014-10-15T08:45:02Z H4ns: moore33: that is what we've told them
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2014-10-15T08:45:57Z moore33: Maybe he'll believe it coming from me :)
2014-10-15T08:46:05Z francogrex: yes I want to used shared memory, but obviously the memory is not shared. I have tried the mmap way but still sbcl maps to his own memory
2014-10-15T08:46:48Z H4ns: francogrex: if you cannot access the memory because it is not shared, then you cannot access it precisely because it is not shared. you need to find another way to communicate.
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2014-10-15T08:48:16Z Zhivago: mmap provides shared memory; you're probably using it wrong.
2014-10-15T08:48:25Z Zhivago: What does 'maps to his own memory' mean?
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2014-10-15T08:57:50Z francogrex: Zhivago: ok, this is what is happening for me: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144046
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2014-10-15T08:59:09Z francogrex: got disconnected
2014-10-15T08:59:32Z francogrex: the calling process now is SAS, trying to acess data written to mem by lisp using mmap
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2014-10-15T09:00:27Z H4ns: francogrex: both processes need to map the same file.
2014-10-15T09:01:33Z francogrex: ok so SAS has no access to this memory location unless it 'maps' it also with an mmap
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2014-10-15T09:06:03Z H4ns: correct.
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2014-10-15T09:07:47Z francogrex: ok thanks. It is slowly getting clearer now. I am happy at least I could use mmap from cffi
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2014-10-15T09:09:36Z francogrex: I am not working with files but, just passing values (buffers?)
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2014-10-15T09:22:55Z moore33: francogrex: You need to work with files so that the two programs can both refer to the shared memory.
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2014-10-15T09:25:15Z H4ns: you can also share memory that is not backed by files.
2014-10-15T09:25:48Z H4ns: but in any case, all processes who want to share memory need to take part in the sharing activity by calling mmap.
2014-10-15T09:26:04Z H4ns: (or whatever call the operating system has to shared memory)
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2014-10-15T09:29:32Z moore33: H4ns: Are you thinking sharing via fork(), or by some other mechanism than mmap()? I'm curious...
2014-10-15T09:30:07Z Zhivago: You might want to also check out posix shm_open().
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2014-10-15T09:30:22Z Zhivago: Not that I'm a fan of shared memory ...
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2014-10-15T09:31:11Z H4ns: moore33: i don't recall the details, but at linux has a way to name some memory for sharing purposes without backing it through a file.  maybe shm_open(), but i forget how that worked.
2014-10-15T09:33:40Z moore33: H4ns: Ok. It seems pretty similar to using a file, but with a different namespace.
2014-10-15T09:35:34Z H4ns: yeah, and without the space and time overhead.
2014-10-15T09:35:36Z dim: yeah SHM is also a possibility, but only within the same process hierarchy (IIRC), and default kernels limit that to a very small amount
2014-10-15T09:35:50Z dim: you need to tweak kernel settings to use SHM, basically
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2014-10-15T09:36:41Z dim: PostgreSQL switched to anonymous mmap shared memory so that it's now possible to set shared_buffers to N GB without having to sysctl away
2014-10-15T09:37:01Z dim: so you can also mmap a region without having a file underneath, I think
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2014-10-15T09:38:05Z dim: yeah
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2014-10-15T13:14:27Z paul0: any good mail list about CL?
2014-10-15T13:15:37Z Xach: paul0: Not in general, no.
2014-10-15T13:16:42Z Xach: paul0: most of the mailing lists related to a specific implementation are very good (at help with that implementation)
2014-10-15T13:16:47Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-10-15T13:16:48Z Xach has set mode +b *!*poo@*.Red-2-138-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net
2014-10-15T13:16:52Z bumcaa [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (bumcaa)
2014-10-15T13:16:54Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-10-15T13:17:00Z Xach: today's /msg spam
2014-10-15T13:17:13Z wasamasa: we need a counter attacking bot
2014-10-15T13:17:26Z wasamasa: that joins with a slightly different nickname and kickbans whoever is spamming it
2014-10-15T13:18:05Z paul0: Xach: found comp.lang.lisp, subscribed using google groups, but they don't send any emails
2014-10-15T13:18:22Z paul0: Xach: or, I'll have to find a nntp server for that
2014-10-15T13:20:09Z Xach: paul0: I don't think comp.lang.lisp is especially good. it requires a lot of filtering to be useful. you can get good discussion and answers but it is mixed in with a lot of garbage.
2014-10-15T13:20:47Z stassats: wasamasa: it needs to speak
2014-10-15T13:21:04Z moore33: And wackos...
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2014-10-15T13:23:26Z wasamasa: stassats: oh right
2014-10-15T13:23:29Z wasamasa: stassats: damnit
2014-10-15T13:23:33Z moore33: Truly, what is driving people like WJ?
2014-10-15T13:24:03Z wasamasa: stassats: could it be something like an announcement bot?
2014-10-15T13:24:19Z Xach: wasamasa: The discussion is worse than the spam, so far.
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2014-10-15T13:26:51Z wasamasa: Xach: I'll ask #freenode then about it
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2014-10-15T13:52:29Z drmeister_: beach: Are you still online?
2014-10-15T13:52:29Z minion: drmeister_, memo from beach: I started a collection of MIR examples: http://metamodular.com/MIR-Examples/index.html
2014-10-15T13:52:43Z drmeister_: Yup - I saw that - awesome - had some questions.
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2014-10-15T15:50:09Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers!
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2014-10-15T16:10:15Z jebes: does anyone know how to create an opengl3.x or opengl4.x context using lispbuilder-sdl or cl-glut?
2014-10-15T16:10:21Z jebes: i've been googling for quite a long time
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2014-10-15T16:23:45Z |3b|: jebes: looks like it would be hard to do with either of those if you don't get a 3.x+ context by default
2014-10-15T16:24:17Z jebes: is there any windowing kit that does support it?
2014-10-15T16:24:38Z |3b|: you would need a osx glut or freeglut specific extension, and cl-glut doesn't support either of those anyway
2014-10-15T16:24:52Z |3b|: cl-sdl2 should be able to, or glop
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2014-10-15T16:24:59Z jebes: okay, thank you
2014-10-15T16:26:03Z |3b|: (cl-glut doesn't support the extensions, it should work with the basic glut stuff on either)
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2014-10-15T16:31:28Z ynniv: ack006, redline6561: If you guys have a few minutes, I could use feedback on the latest http://github.com/ynniv/OpenGenera
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2014-10-15T16:31:53Z ack006: ynniv: sure :-)
2014-10-15T16:34:56Z ack006: ynniv: looks good, i'll try to build it, then it will be easier for me to help you with any x(lib) issues there might be, as well as the "grand expedition" of trying to get it working with recent distro's :-)
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2014-10-15T16:36:49Z ynniv: That would be helpful. Right now it frequently comes up with a hung screen due to some X11 interaction. My workaround is to make it easy to restart genera, but it would be much better if it didn’t break in the first place
2014-10-15T16:37:07Z ack006: ynniv: :-)
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2014-10-15T16:38:42Z ynniv: Also I figured out that xlibtrace doesn’t work with VNC, so to use it with my setup you need to enable the virtualbox gui (https://docs.vagrantup.com/v2/virtualbox/configuration.html), install xorg, and run genera through that.
2014-10-15T16:39:15Z ack006: ynniv: thanks for the tip, i'll try that
2014-10-15T16:39:24Z ynniv: The VirtualBox GUI almost works correctly, so once I shake out some bugs I’ll use that instead of VNC.
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2014-10-15T16:40:53Z ack006: ynniv: i've got a good setup to test your build from scratch now, i'll let you know... now installing veewee
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2014-10-15T16:42:44Z ack006: ynniv: last time the "autotyping" installation of ubuntu crashed for some reason, and because it was late, i didn't bother to troubleshoot
2014-10-15T16:43:44Z ynniv: You’ll need a recent version of vagrant now that I changed the configuration to the new syntax. Not sure what version is in your package manager.
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2014-10-15T16:44:25Z ack006: ynniv: vagrant 1.6.5-1 on arch linux
2014-10-15T16:44:46Z ynniv: That’s the same as I have
2014-10-15T16:44:53Z ack006: ynniv: :-)
2014-10-15T16:45:46Z ack006: ynniv: arch linux usually has very recent versions of thing (but at the moment they're lagging behind on both cmucl and sbcl <grr>)
2014-10-15T16:45:56Z ack006: things*
2014-10-15T16:46:21Z ynniv: That’s unfortunate. Maybe a recent ccl?
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2014-10-15T16:46:33Z ack006: ynniv: yup, lovin'it :-)
2014-10-15T16:47:23Z ack006: ynniv: i've posted a much better (imho) PKGBUILD for cmucl on my bug report, but i think the maintainer is busy with other things (he maintains quite a few lisps :-) )
2014-10-15T16:47:43Z ynniv: I’ve been using CCL for most of my common lisping due to it’s Cocoa integration, but I recently loaded some code into sbcl and discovered that it does a much better job at type checking
2014-10-15T16:48:10Z ynniv: s/it’s/its/ (again… I’m pretty bad at that one)
2014-10-15T16:48:32Z ack006: ynniv: that's why i find it nice to have several different lisps installed, they all have their specific strengths :-)
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2014-10-15T16:51:24Z ack006: ynniv: ok, all the gems have been dug out of the ground, now let's try building :-)
2014-10-15T16:52:30Z ynniv: I’m sure that veewee can be replaced by a shell script as well :)
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2014-10-15T16:53:16Z ack006: ynniv: sure, but it's okay if you start out from something you know :) after it works well, you can always optimize
2014-10-15T16:54:00Z ynniv: In the end we’ll end up with a bunch of shell scripts that build a tiny arch linux image ;)
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2014-10-15T16:56:15Z ack006: ynniv: okay, now building the box :)
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2014-10-15T17:05:30Z ack006: ynniv: ah, seems like same crash as last time: after starting the partitioner and slightly into the progress bar, the virtual screen suddenly exits and i'm stuck at "waiting for ssh login on 127.0.0.1 with user vagrant ..."
2014-10-15T17:06:13Z wasamasa: Shinmera: I like your comments: https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol/blob/master/document/layer.lisp#L97
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2014-10-15T17:07:06Z ack006: ynniv: seems like something in the ubuntu installer crashes hard, there appear to be no log messages.
2014-10-15T17:07:20Z Shinmera: wasamasa: I still haven't figured out a way to make that work quickly, but there's much more pressing issues with Parasol than that.
2014-10-15T17:07:33Z wasamasa: Shinmera: oh really?
2014-10-15T17:07:52Z wasamasa: Shinmera: I'm reading its sources out of interest after I saw gimp gobble up all memory on someone else's machine
2014-10-15T17:08:25Z Shinmera: wasamasa: In its current state it won't work at all, you'll have to try from the commits before I tried to fix the event lossage with threading.
2014-10-15T17:08:35Z Shinmera: wasamasa: Whenever I do return to it I'll probably start over anew.
2014-10-15T17:08:46Z wasamasa: Shinmera: ok :<
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2014-10-15T17:11:48Z Shinmera: wasamasa: Parasol was mostly experiment and not knowing what I'm doing. What it aims for is important enough for me to want to start out on more solid ground.
2014-10-15T17:12:54Z wasamasa: Shinmera: how much functionality did you lift from qt?
2014-10-15T17:13:19Z Shinmera: wasamasa: I'm not sure how to answer that question satisfactory.
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2014-10-15T17:14:41Z wasamasa: Shinmera: I'm just wondering whether I'm just overlooking the code for resizing images with various algorithms, mixing color, ... or it's provided by qt
2014-10-15T17:15:46Z Shinmera: wasamasa: most of that is in document/layer.lisp and is indeed provided by Qt.
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2014-10-15T17:21:25Z shka: hi
2014-10-15T17:21:27Z shka: (loop for x from 5 downto 0 do (decf x))
2014-10-15T17:21:32Z ack006: ynniv: cleaning up a little and running `make` a second time gets me past partitioning, installing packages...
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2014-10-15T17:21:58Z shka: what was the loop symbol for reducing value?
2014-10-15T17:22:06Z shka: since this obviously won't work ;-)
2014-10-15T17:22:42Z Shinmera: shka: Do you mean stepping by 2?
2014-10-15T17:22:45Z ggole: What do you mean?
2014-10-15T17:22:51Z shka: Shinmera: no
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2014-10-15T17:23:16Z shka: i'm writing any alghorithm that sometimes needs to run twice with same value
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2014-10-15T17:24:07Z shka: this would be the simplest way to deal with it i think
2014-10-15T17:24:25Z ggole: What does loop have to do with this?
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2014-10-15T17:25:15Z shka: oh crap
2014-10-15T17:25:23Z shka: ggole: sorry, im any idiot
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2014-10-15T17:30:21Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-10-15T17:30:38Z ack006: beach: good evening :)
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2014-10-15T17:31:58Z beach: drmeister: What questions do you have about MIR?
2014-10-15T17:33:33Z ynniv: ack006: That’s strange. I twiddled with the install script some a while back, perhaps it needs more
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2014-10-15T17:33:36Z shka: beach: good evening sir
2014-10-15T17:34:18Z ack006: ack006: no worry, i'm happy it got this far, but now it seems stuck a long time on installing the kernel
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2014-10-15T17:34:34Z ack006: ynniv: self-post hihi :)
2014-10-15T17:34:52Z ack006: ynniv: apt-get appears to hang downloading the kernel
2014-10-15T17:35:45Z ack006: ynniv: maybe it just takes a long time, but cpu is pegged at 100%, so i won't wait too long before my box tries to become a hovercraft (fans going full tilt) :-)
2014-10-15T17:36:18Z ynniv: what CPU do you have?
2014-10-15T17:36:34Z ack006: core 2 duo, oldie but still going
2014-10-15T17:36:58Z ack006: E7500  @ 2.93GHz
2014-10-15T17:37:25Z ack006: ah, it's got past the last apt-get, yay
2014-10-15T17:37:58Z ynniv: Ok, same as me
2014-10-15T17:38:40Z ack006: i may be a lisper but i didn't get rich because of it ha :-) most young whippersnappers with their i7's extreme overclocked all the way to eleven, joy to them! :-)
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2014-10-15T17:40:21Z ynniv: I like to stretch my hardware, too. This laptop is 5 years old! 8 gigs of ram and SSD upgrades keep it sailing.
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2014-10-15T17:41:30Z ack006: ynniv: i did 'invest' in a better monitor just recently, guess that's warranted because i spend such a lot time in front of it, nice 23" lg one
2014-10-15T17:41:47Z ack006: reminds me of the old big workstation crts i used to work with
2014-10-15T17:41:53Z ack006: :-)
2014-10-15T17:42:04Z ack006: except it's a _whole_ lot flatter :-)
2014-10-15T17:42:28Z ack006: and doesn't weigh 18 kilo's hihi
2014-10-15T17:42:37Z drewc must be a young whippersnapper ... for his computer is only 4.5 years old, and an "Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU       M 620  @ 2.67GHz" :)
2014-10-15T17:42:43Z ynniv: I know, the kids are spoiled these days. My 24” Dell would have cost and weigh ten times as much.
2014-10-15T17:43:15Z drewc had the original Compaq 
2014-10-15T17:43:31Z ack006: wow! :-)
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2014-10-15T17:44:31Z ynniv: In fact the Symbolics 360 had a super fancy (expensife) “high resolution” black and white display that has fewer pixels than my 15” laptop.
2014-10-15T17:44:39Z rme: If any "official" Open Genera users are out there, please contact David Schmidt for a native x8664 emulator with the X11 problem solved, along with a bunch of other fixes.
2014-10-15T17:44:43Z drewc: I learned how to code by trying to run modern games (leisure suit larry and kings quest) on it : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Portable
2014-10-15T17:44:57Z ack006: :-)
2014-10-15T17:45:41Z ack006: times sure are changing, i didn't expect to run maxima on my phone either, but i do now :-)
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2014-10-15T17:46:56Z drewc: yeah, my phone is a lot more powerful than the PC I spent some $4500 on in '95 ... and I was given the phone by a client...
2014-10-15T17:46:57Z ack006: rme: i'm no longer with the university, so no chance for me i'm afraid :-(
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2014-10-15T17:48:14Z drewc: hell, my raspberry PI's are more powerful than my p166 was .... and that was the second speediest pentium available at the time!
2014-10-15T17:48:23Z rme: ack006: No worries.  I did want everyone to know that there is at least some ongoing effort to support the product.
2014-10-15T17:48:45Z ack006: ynniv: wrt opengenera: the vm shut down cleanly, but then vboxmanage threw an error
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2014-10-15T17:49:00Z ack006: rme: i'm happy :-)
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2014-10-15T17:50:15Z ack006: as i said before, even if most of us are not "legally" allowed to use it, i've great hope that getting acquainted with it will spur new ideas which will find their way in user interfaces and development environments of today
2014-10-15T17:50:43Z ack006: like so much of lisp has found a way in about anything computable :-)
2014-10-15T17:51:26Z ack006: and very few "young whippersnappers" of today realize that !
2014-10-15T17:51:46Z ack006: :-)
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2014-10-15T17:53:07Z ack006 thinks that emacs, slime, presentations and emacs autocomplete are a very big step in the right direction
2014-10-15T17:53:51Z ack006: afk for a bit :)
2014-10-15T17:54:03Z ynniv: rme: Is there public pricing, updates, etc? Last I heard the IP situation was still tenuous.
2014-10-15T17:54:07Z rme: Clozure has been working on the x8664 VLM for Open Genera, so I want people to know about it.  I've only helped a tiny little bit with it myself, though.
2014-10-15T17:54:12Z redline6561: ynniv: A bit swamped atm. Will try to look sometime soon.
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2014-10-15T17:54:45Z ynniv: At this point I’m still trying to make sense of Genera, let alone do anything useful :)
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2014-10-15T17:55:31Z redline6561: rme: good to know! :)
2014-10-15T17:55:33Z rme: ynniv: I'm afraid I don't know anything about pricing, etc.  http://symbolics-dks.com has the contact info for the person who would know.
2014-10-15T17:55:37Z ynniv: Right now I’m trying to ping a server, but I haven’t decided if I’m supposed to be following the “Internet” guide or the “Internet Non-ARPA” one ;)
2014-10-15T17:55:38Z redline6561: though at this point if i were to purchase it'll likely be old lispm and not opengenera for pricing reasons.
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2014-10-15T17:57:06Z rme: ynniv: (tcp:send-icmp-echo "INTERNET|192.168.1.1")
2014-10-15T17:58:00Z ynniv: Huh. I thought I was supposed to set up an alias for hosts or something. Is there a part of the docs I would have found this in?
2014-10-15T17:59:32Z rme shrugs apologetically
2014-10-15T17:59:43Z ynniv: hehe
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2014-10-15T18:03:54Z ack006: ynniv: here's a paste of the last error i got when building
2014-10-15T18:04:00Z ack006: ynniv: http://pastie.org/9650578
2014-10-15T18:06:31Z ynniv: what version of virtualbox?
2014-10-15T18:06:54Z ack006: ynniv: virtualbox 4.3.18-1 (arch linux)
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2014-10-15T18:08:18Z ack006: ynniv: maybe there was a race, running the command produces output and a 0 exit code
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2014-10-15T18:08:38Z ack006: *manually
2014-10-15T18:10:04Z ack006: ynniv: maybe best if you make generous use of dependencies in your makefile, that way it's easy to restart the build a few times until it works :)
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2014-10-15T18:11:04Z ynniv: veewee is out of my hands
2014-10-15T18:11:12Z ynniv: I just say “prepare this image"
2014-10-15T18:11:44Z ynniv: The ubuntu image should be redistributable, tho
2014-10-15T18:11:59Z ack006: ynniv: maybe try to separate out the "veewee box build" / "veewee box validate" etc. steps, and depend on their intermediary results
2014-10-15T18:13:45Z ack006: ynniv: you could use "stamp" files to track intermediary results (create them if command such-and-such returns success) like debian / ubuntu package builds do
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2014-10-15T18:14:56Z ack006: ynniv: like `veewee box built && touch box-built-stamp`, `veewee box validate && touch box-validated-stamp`, etc.
2014-10-15T18:14:59Z ynniv: are you able to finish the export manually?
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2014-10-15T18:15:13Z ack006: ynniv: i'll try :-)
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2014-10-15T18:18:11Z ack006: ynniv: yup :-)
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2014-10-15T18:18:41Z ynniv: rme: It is my understanding (from Reti) that anyone associated with MIT has license to use Genera. Do you know if this is true?
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2014-10-15T18:19:43Z rme: ynniv: I do not know.
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2014-10-15T18:29:41Z ack006: ynniv: cannot bring up the box using `vagrant up`, sadly. Lots of "default: Warning: Authentication failure. Retrying...", then a connection timeout timeout
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2014-10-15T18:33:22Z ynniv: I think it takes longer to boot the first time, perhaps because the disk hasn’t been cached by the OS yet. The default config.vm.boot_timeout is 300, perhaps try 1200?
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2014-10-15T18:34:24Z ack006: ynniv: the box does appear to be up, but i'm still trying to connect using vnc. vnc drops the connection w/o asking for a password
2014-10-15T18:34:41Z ynniv: that’s because it didn’t finish setup
2014-10-15T18:34:57Z ack006: ynniv: :-)
2014-10-15T18:35:14Z ynniv: creating a reasonable ubuntu-7.10 box is step one, setting up genera is step 2 :)
2014-10-15T18:35:23Z ynniv: it’s much faster tho
2014-10-15T18:36:37Z ack006: ynniv: well, i think that thanks to your work we have a lot of valuable information on how to get it to work. i'll try setting up a vm manually, using the steps from your repository. thanks a lot :-)
2014-10-15T18:37:11Z ynniv: I’ll try to make it a little more resilient. Good luck!
2014-10-15T18:37:38Z ack006: ynniv: good luck to you :) it looks very promising.
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2014-10-15T19:27:22Z ahungry: hey all, who maintains the swank package in quicklisp?
2014-10-15T19:27:40Z ahungry: I've pinpointed the swank-backend error to that package
2014-10-15T19:27:42Z pjb: who maintains slime.
2014-10-15T19:28:17Z ahungry: Not sure but the problem occurs as a result of git pulling the latest slime
2014-10-15T19:28:27Z ahungry: Basically, as of 10/10 changes in slime repo, the quickloadable swank is incompatible
2014-10-15T19:28:30Z ahungry: with the git repo
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2014-10-15T19:29:02Z pjb: It can happen, if they do "maintainance" after the montly quicklisp releases.
2014-10-15T19:29:07Z ahungry: Guess i'll report it here
2014-10-15T19:29:11Z ahungry: https://github.com/slime/slime
2014-10-15T19:29:21Z pjb: That's what you get when you use maintained software :-)
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2014-10-15T19:30:45Z Xach: ahungry: it is always best to use swank and slime from the same source.
2014-10-15T19:30:48Z Grue`: it seems reasonable it wouldnt work if client and server versions are different, not really slime's fault
2014-10-15T19:31:05Z Xach: ahungry: if you use different versions, it is only a lucky coincidence when it works at all
2014-10-15T19:31:51Z ahungry: Hm, I assumed quicklisp would load the latest, quicklisp loads an old version?
2014-10-15T19:32:06Z ahungry: Or, how do I pinpoint what swank quicklisp is trying to load
2014-10-15T19:32:15Z Xach: ahungry: quicklisp software updates once per month. it uses whatever was the latest version when the latest quicklisp release happened.
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2014-10-15T19:32:25Z Xach: ahungry: one way: (ql:where-is-system "swank")
2014-10-15T19:33:09Z ahungry: Thanks Xach - so easiest solution is probably to just point my emacs slime require there vs the git repo?
2014-10-15T19:33:26Z Xach: ahungry: yes. there's a program to do it semi-automatically called quicklisp-slime-helper.
2014-10-15T19:33:31Z Xach: as in, (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")
2014-10-15T19:33:39Z Xach: it will keep emacs pointed to the right place and keep swank in sync.
2014-10-15T19:34:09Z ahungry: Awesome, thanks a ton
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2014-10-15T19:34:17Z Xach: ahungry: or you could point your asdf and emacs config at the git checkout. that should work too. if asdf doesn't know about your slime directory, it can't load swank from there.
2014-10-15T19:34:32Z Xach: ahungry: i suspect you might be able to use the emacs package system too (melpa?)
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2014-10-15T19:35:33Z ahungry: I actually used to and a couple weeks ago ran into an error with the emacs packaged slime that required me to use the git repo, although I dont remember full error details from then
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2014-10-15T19:36:28Z ahungry: heh, (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") fails with the swank error, so looks like I have to fix by hand first
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2014-10-15T19:37:20Z Xach: dang
2014-10-15T19:38:03Z ack006: ahungry: why not install slime from melpa?
2014-10-15T19:38:30Z ack006: ahungry: it's more recent than the one from quicklisp, it solved some problems i was having too
2014-10-15T19:39:02Z ack006: just make sure you don't have quicklisp and melpa versions installed simultaneously
2014-10-15T19:40:24Z ack006: Xach: ha you suggested it first (i was lagging)
2014-10-15T19:41:27Z ahungry: Well, all good now, and using the quicklisp-slime-helper.  I had some weird melpa issue a couple weeks ago, maybe ill look up #lisp logs and see what it was
2014-10-15T19:41:41Z ack006: ahungry: :-)
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2014-10-15T19:41:58Z ahungry: something wasnt working right, maybe I mistakenly was using some weird el-get version since thats still around on some of my systems, vs the actual melpa one
2014-10-15T19:42:09Z ahungry: I think it may have been something contrib related
2014-10-15T19:43:21Z ack006: ahungry: had something similar. dependency hell can pop up anywhere :)
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2014-10-15T19:44:41Z ahungry: Yea, a small price to pay for such a fun development environment though (emacs/slime/common lisp)
2014-10-15T19:44:59Z ack006: ahungry: :-)
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2014-10-15T19:59:06Z drewc just used "~R" as a FORMAT directive for the first time .... knew it was there, over 10 years for a use! :)
2014-10-15T19:59:51Z Bicyclidine: next figure out how to use ~@r!
2014-10-15T20:01:03Z ack006: drewc: lovely isn't it? only i'm bit sad that it doesn't spell fractional numbers, e.g. 0.0014342
2014-10-15T20:01:18Z ack006: *floating point
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2014-10-15T20:02:36Z ack006 would love to read ~r spelling out "one thousandth four hundred and thirty-four millionth", etc...
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2014-10-15T20:04:06Z drewc: Bicyclidine: heh ... I could actually do that here .... after all, it is for a CSS class, and (format nil "~R-star~:P" (length "***")) is what I am doing .... the @ prefix will work...
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2014-10-15T20:06:22Z drewc: ack006: and that is precisely the reason I try to avoid FORMAT at all ... another language with many fun things to play with, and I am already dealing with CL *and* CL:LOOP as it is :)
2014-10-15T20:06:41Z ack006: drewc: :-)
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2014-10-15T20:07:44Z ack006 loves ~{ and ~} too, with various intricate ways of nesting
2014-10-15T20:08:01Z Grue`: is there a "lispy" FORMAT alternative (like ITERATE for LOOP)?
2014-10-15T20:08:11Z ack006: but it should never become an obsession or impede the readability of your code :)
2014-10-15T20:08:24Z pjb: drewc: I guess the last time you used the word "unconstitutionally" was more than ten years too, but you knew it existed.
2014-10-15T20:08:29Z Bicyclidine: Grue`: pprint-logical-block and so on, probably
2014-10-15T20:08:50Z Bicyclidine: aka just writing out the equivalent of FORMATTER expansions.
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2014-10-15T20:21:25Z francogrex: ms for /me ?
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2014-10-15T21:09:55Z beppu: http://boards.4chan.org/g/thread/44659305/lisp-general-ldb
2014-10-15T21:11:22Z ack006: ahhh love that keyboard :-)
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2014-10-15T21:12:47Z ack006: (you see why facebook is nothing but a copycat? (hint: 'like' this!)) :-)
2014-10-15T21:12:48Z wasamasa: >/g/
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2014-10-15T21:13:17Z wasamasa: Grue`: hmm, don't see how you'd lispify a string
2014-10-15T21:13:29Z wasamasa: Grue`: the same way rx is an alternative for regex strings?
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2014-10-15T21:18:27Z Grue`: well, instead of (format nil "~{ ~}" ...) use (lispy-format nil '(:iterate ) ...) or something
2014-10-15T21:19:41Z Grue`: and using special symbols for arguments like symbol :$1 resolves to the first argument and so on
2014-10-15T21:20:21Z Grue`: so you can format things in different order than they appear in the expression
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2014-10-15T21:48:45Z beppu: ack006: I see it.  thumbs up.  :P
2014-10-15T21:48:55Z ack006: beppu: :-)
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2014-10-15T21:52:26Z ack006 wonders whether there's still a trademark on that symbolics icon, and who if anyone owns it. would be nice to raise symbolics from the dead with some facebook cash ;-P
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2014-10-15T21:54:58Z ack006 hums: "And we would all write LISP together", to the tune of "Goodnight Saigon"...
2014-10-15T21:56:39Z ack006 wants to do a spoof on that song, about LISP of course...
2014-10-15T21:57:16Z ack006: *write -> hack, of source! how can i be so stupid...
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2014-10-15T22:03:01Z fortitude: anybody know how you go about actually using smug?
2014-10-15T22:03:31Z fortitude: I quickloaded it, only to find out that there's no SMUG package, and there doesn't seem to be an obvious toplevel
2014-10-15T22:03:32Z Bicyclidine: have you seen the tutorial?
2014-10-15T22:04:00Z fortitude: I did, but that looked like a more or less complete implementation
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2014-10-15T22:04:21Z fortitude: I assumed (mistakenly?) that the library provided something on top of that
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2014-10-15T22:04:37Z fortitude: there's a lot of parser stuff in there, but none of it seems to get loaded by default
2014-10-15T22:04:39Z Bicyclidine: well, the package is smug.im/smug/package, nicknamed smug, according to package.lisp
2014-10-15T22:04:52Z fortitude: hmm
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2014-10-15T22:04:58Z fortitude: (find-package 'smug) => NIL
2014-10-15T22:05:14Z Bicyclidine: uh, hm, the asd is pretty weird
2014-10-15T22:05:16Z Bicyclidine: drewc: around?
2014-10-15T22:05:36Z fortitude: if I had the first clue about how the whole asdf package-system thing works, that might help :/
2014-10-15T22:05:48Z Bicyclidine: yeah, i have no idea what that is
2014-10-15T22:05:57Z Bicyclidine: drewc's the maintainer and he's around here sometimes, you might be able to ask him about it
2014-10-15T22:06:06Z drewc: yup, what's up?
2014-10-15T22:06:11Z fortitude: yep, I'll poke him when I get a chance
2014-10-15T22:06:23Z fortitude: might just use the tutorial stuff for now
2014-10-15T22:06:39Z beppu: ack006: In the 4chan thread (about 2/3rds of the way down) it says that Symbolics is still getting paid by the DoD for some maintenance work.
2014-10-15T22:06:41Z beppu: http://www.usaspending.gov/search?form_fields=%7B%22recipient_name%22%3A%22symbolics+%22%2C%22recip_state%22%3Anull%2C%22recip_congdist%22%3Anull%2C%22recip_country%22%3Anull%2C%22recipient_duns%22%3A%5B%22966978090%22%2C%22873185821%22%5D%2C%22spending_cat%22%3Anull%2C%22dept%22%3Anull%2C%22extent_competed%22%3Anull%2C%22psc_code%22%3Anull%2C%22naics_code%22%3Anull%2C%22fyear%22%3Anull%7D&sort_by=date&per_page
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2014-10-15T22:06:43Z beppu: =25
2014-10-15T22:06:50Z fortitude: drewc: we're wondering how you load and/or use smug
2014-10-15T22:07:21Z drewc: fortitude: which version of smug from where?
2014-10-15T22:07:37Z fortitude: that's a good question (the one from the latest quicklisp dist)
2014-10-15T22:08:31Z fortitude: drewc: quicklisp-projects says that gets pulled from the github repo
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2014-10-15T22:09:06Z drewc: hmmm.
2014-10-15T22:09:14Z fortitude: system-apropos has it dated at 2014-10-06
2014-10-15T22:09:20Z fortitude: which is potentially a bit vague
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2014-10-15T22:13:37Z drewc: fortitude: the best bet is to use https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org and the tutorial.lisp associated with it, as that is what is working... or at least should be.
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2014-10-15T22:14:06Z fortitude: drewc: good to know (I thought the tutorial was a suspiciously complete implementation)
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2014-10-15T22:15:54Z ynniv: ack006: amusingly, the space cadet keyboard has fewer keys than a modern desktop keyboard
2014-10-15T22:16:42Z drewc: fortitude: "The example code in the following document is completely self-contained, and does not require an installation of the SMUG library." ... and really, it also is the smug library ... I am working on all that right now actually ... the WIP commit was just amended and --force'd for your viewing pleasure.
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2014-10-15T22:19:00Z fortitude: drewc: guess that's what I get for reading documentation while sleep-deprived; thanks for the info
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2014-10-15T22:19:41Z drewc: fortitude: ... and, it generates itself from that .org file using https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#tangle--make-code-from-source-document ... so it does work if tutorial.lisp, tangle.lisp and weave.lisp are there and somewhat complete, and they come from that tutorial. Literate is fun.
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2014-10-15T22:22:44Z fortitude: now I just need to implement some sort of hybrid input context, and I can start doing the actual parser work
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2014-10-15T22:58:40Z dim: would someone here know of a good introductory material about encodings and the character data type (in CL)?
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2014-10-15T22:59:15Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure any modern CL implementations use aspects of characters past their code
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2014-10-15T23:04:41Z Xach: dim: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3127703943282468%40naggum.no.html is something that stuck with me - particularly the last few paragraphs
2014-10-15T23:04:46Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-10-15T23:04:48Z Xach has set mode +b *!*traasta@213.143.51.*
2014-10-15T23:04:50Z traasta [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (spam)
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2014-10-15T23:05:19Z dim: oh, naggum, thanks
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2014-10-15T23:07:17Z whartung: I miss his clarity
2014-10-15T23:10:17Z dim: and troll skills
2014-10-15T23:11:01Z dim: trolling, I guess
2014-10-15T23:11:26Z whartung: He was a flamer, I never considered him a troll
2014-10-15T23:12:21Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3230121938911755%40naggum.net.html matches my experience most of the time.
2014-10-15T23:12:31Z dim: I would have learned the difference by reading him at the time maybe then
2014-10-15T23:13:00Z whartung: yup, I agree Xach
2014-10-15T23:13:11Z Xach: not *all* the time, but most
2014-10-15T23:13:14Z whartung: yea
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2014-10-15T23:15:42Z whartung: he was always friendly to me when I interacted with him.
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2014-10-15T23:18:33Z whartung: oh, and thanks for keeping that archive Xach
2014-10-15T23:19:29Z Bicyclidine: oh, that is a good post. i spend a weekend reading through those naggum archives once and didn't remember that one, too. good stuff
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2014-10-15T23:39:41Z White_Flame: dim:  base-char and standard-char do not follow any particular encoding.  They're simply a smaller subset of character
2014-10-15T23:40:11Z White_Flame: allowing implementation-specific optimizations (usually memory optimizations) for internal representation
2014-10-15T23:41:00Z White_Flame: encoding only comes into play with streams' external-format
2014-10-15T23:41:12Z White_Flame: at least, where it's user-exposed
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2014-10-15T23:45:14Z Xach: the world has changed a lot since 1999
2014-10-15T23:49:08Z White_Flame: I still like base-128 encoding of numbers far better than UTF-8's overcomplicated and potentially ambiguous encoding, with ambiguities expressable but illegal
2014-10-15T23:49:22Z White_Flame: 7 bits per byte, high bit set = there's another byte coming
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2014-10-15T23:52:27Z jasom: White_Flame: that's not self-synchronizing
2014-10-15T23:52:40Z jasom: oh I suppose it is, the top byte not set means you're done at least
2014-10-15T23:53:21Z White_Flame: right, the one thing UTF-8 has over it is that you can distinguish the first byte vs a middle byte
2014-10-15T23:53:37Z White_Flame: but still... meh
2014-10-15T23:53:41Z jasom: you need the previous byte to know if you're on a first byte with the base 128 scheme
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2014-10-15T23:59:05Z faheem___: can one do multiple whens in loop? e.g. (loop for i from 1 to 10 when (evenp i) sum i)
2014-10-15T23:59:13Z faheem___: can you have more than one when?
2014-10-15T23:59:18Z Bicyclidine: sure
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2014-10-15T23:59:51Z faheem___: Bicyclidine: ok. let me think about it.